0:00:01.106,0:00:05.212
I come to you today[br]to speak of liars,

0:00:05.212,0:00:06.705
lawsuits

0:00:06.705,0:00:08.595
and laughter.

0:00:09.045,0:00:12.178
The first time I heard[br]about Holocaust denial,

0:00:12.178,0:00:13.480
I laughed.

0:00:14.097,0:00:16.018
Holocaust denial?

0:00:16.370,0:00:19.823
The Holocaust which has[br]the dubious distinction

0:00:19.823,0:00:24.318
of being the best-documented[br]genocide in the world?

0:00:25.046,0:00:27.373
Who could believe it didn't happen?

0:00:28.225,0:00:29.902
Think about it.

0:00:30.289,0:00:32.851
For deniers to be right,

0:00:32.851,0:00:35.026
who would have to be wrong?

0:00:35.260,0:00:37.220
Well, first of all --

0:00:37.220,0:00:38.132
the victims,

0:00:38.132,0:00:42.738
the survivors who have told us[br]their harrowing stories.

0:00:43.761,0:00:45.983
Who else would have to be wrong?

0:00:46.251,0:00:48.051
The bystanders.

0:00:48.305,0:00:52.306
The people who lived in the myriads[br]of towns and villages and cities

0:00:52.306,0:00:54.301
on the Eastern front,

0:00:54.301,0:00:56.766
who watched their neighbors[br]be rounded up --

0:00:56.766,0:01:00.002
men, women, children, young, old --

0:01:00.002,0:01:02.677
and be marched[br]to the outskirts of the town

0:01:02.677,0:01:05.973
to be shot and left dead in ditches.

0:01:06.271,0:01:07.701
Or the Poles,

0:01:07.701,0:01:12.121
who lived in towns and villages[br]around the death camps,

0:01:12.266,0:01:14.516
who watched day after day

0:01:14.665,0:01:17.460
as the trains went in filled with people

0:01:17.638,0:01:18.996
and came out empty.

0:01:19.867,0:01:21.585
But above all,

0:01:21.771,0:01:23.701
who would have to be wrong?

0:01:24.227,0:01:25.897
The perpetrators.

0:01:26.335,0:01:29.667
The people who say, "We did it.

0:01:29.784,0:01:31.216
I did it."

0:01:31.398,0:01:33.414
Now maybe they add a caveat --

0:01:33.570,0:01:36.140
they say, "I didn't have a choice,

0:01:36.304,0:01:37.993
I was forced to do it."

0:01:38.303,0:01:41.565
But nonetheless, they say, "I did it."

0:01:42.081,0:01:43.546
Think about it.

0:01:43.765,0:01:49.611
In not one war crimes trial[br]since the end of World War II

0:01:49.611,0:01:56.163
has a perpetrator of any nationality[br]ever said, "It didn't happen."

0:01:57.301,0:02:01.540
Again, they may have said, "I was forced,"[br]but never that it didn't happen.

0:02:01.883,0:02:03.380
Having thought that through,

0:02:03.380,0:02:07.354
I decided denial was not[br]going to be on my agenda;

0:02:07.354,0:02:09.088
I had bigger things to worry about,

0:02:09.088,0:02:10.091
to write about,

0:02:10.091,0:02:11.115
to research,

0:02:11.118,0:02:12.714
and I moved on.

0:02:13.157,0:02:16.052
Fast-forward a little over a decade,

0:02:16.052,0:02:17.789
and two senior scholars --

0:02:17.789,0:02:19.072
scholars of the Holocaust,

0:02:19.072,0:02:21.760
two of the most prominent[br]historians of the Holocaust --

0:02:21.760,0:02:22.878
approached me and said,

0:02:22.878,0:02:24.250
"Deborah, let's have coffee.

0:02:24.250,0:02:27.628
We have a research idea[br]that we think is perfect for you."

0:02:27.628,0:02:31.484
Intrigued and flattered that they[br]came to me with an idea

0:02:31.484,0:02:33.249
and thought me worthy of it,

0:02:33.249,0:02:35.848
I asked, "What is it?"

0:02:35.848,0:02:39.040
and they said, "Holocaust denial."

0:02:39.528,0:02:42.155
And for the second time, I laughed.

0:02:42.471,0:02:44.125
Holocaust denial?

0:02:44.418,0:02:46.285
The flat Earth folks?

0:02:46.548,0:02:48.416
The Elvis is alive people?

0:02:48.646,0:02:51.054
I should study them?

0:02:51.437,0:02:52.777
And these two guys said,

0:02:52.777,0:02:55.290
"Yeah, we're intrigued.

0:02:55.290,0:02:56.885
What are they about?

0:02:56.885,0:02:58.501
What's their objective?

0:02:58.501,0:03:02.567
How do they manage to get people[br]to believe what they say?"

0:03:02.891,0:03:06.552
So thinking, if they thought[br]it was worthwhile,

0:03:06.552,0:03:09.770
I would take a momentary diversion --

0:03:09.770,0:03:10.951
maybe a year,

0:03:10.951,0:03:12.829
maybe two, three, maybe even four --

0:03:12.829,0:03:15.221
in academic terms, that's momentary.

0:03:15.221,0:03:16.386
(Laughter)

0:03:16.386,0:03:18.796
We work very slowly.

0:03:18.796,0:03:19.797
(Laughter)

0:03:20.217,0:03:22.147
And I would look at them.

0:03:22.147,0:03:23.205
So I did.

0:03:23.413,0:03:26.275
I did my research and I came up[br]with a number of things,

0:03:26.275,0:03:28.635
two of which I'd like to share[br]with you today.

0:03:28.839,0:03:30.270
One:

0:03:30.270,0:03:35.547
deniers are wolves in sheep's clothing.

0:03:35.919,0:03:38.907
They are the same nazis, neo-Nazis --

0:03:38.907,0:03:42.134
you can decide whether you want[br]to put a "neo" there or not.

0:03:42.922,0:03:45.459
But when I looked at them,

0:03:45.459,0:03:49.983
I didn't see any SS-like uniforms,

0:03:49.983,0:03:53.157
swastika-like symbols on the wall,

0:03:53.157,0:03:55.440
Sieg heil salutes --

0:03:55.440,0:03:56.836
none of that.

0:03:56.836,0:03:59.868
What I found instead

0:03:59.868,0:04:04.483
were people parading[br]as respectable academics.

0:04:05.043,0:04:06.431
What did they have?

0:04:06.431,0:04:08.068
They had an institute.

0:04:08.068,0:04:11.776
An institute for historical review.

0:04:12.519,0:04:13.886
They had a journal --

0:04:13.886,0:04:15.190
a slick journal --

0:04:15.190,0:04:18.305
a journal of historical review.

0:04:18.557,0:04:21.128
One filled with papers --

0:04:21.128,0:04:23.390
footnote-laden papers.

0:04:23.963,0:04:26.123
And they had a new name.

0:04:26.596,0:04:28.954
Not neo-Nazis,

0:04:28.954,0:04:31.528
not anti-Semites --

0:04:31.528,0:04:32.930
revisionists.

0:04:33.150,0:04:35.388
They said, "We are revisionists.

0:04:35.388,0:04:38.227
We are out to do one thing:

0:04:38.227,0:04:42.050
to revise mistakes in history."

0:04:42.504,0:04:48.026
But all you had to do was go[br]one inch below the surface,

0:04:48.026,0:04:49.798
and what did you find there?

0:04:49.956,0:04:52.351
The same adulation of Hitler,

0:04:52.351,0:04:54.458
praise of the Third Reich,

0:04:54.458,0:04:57.168
anti-Semitism, racism, prejudice.

0:04:57.946,0:04:59.842
This is what intrigued me.

0:05:00.208,0:05:07.438
It was anti-Semitism, racism, prejudice[br]parading as rational discourse.

0:05:08.810,0:05:10.578
The other thing I found --

0:05:10.578,0:05:14.300
many of us have been taught to think[br]there are facts and there are opinions --

0:05:14.300,0:05:15.779
after studying deniers,

0:05:15.779,0:05:17.487
I think differently.

0:05:17.668,0:05:19.339
There are facts,

0:05:19.339,0:05:21.124
there are opinions,

0:05:21.124,0:05:23.135
and there are lies.

0:05:23.388,0:05:28.716
And what deniers want to do[br]is take their lies,

0:05:28.716,0:05:30.591
dress them up as opinions --

0:05:30.591,0:05:32.604
maybe edgy opinions,

0:05:32.604,0:05:35.247
maybe sort of out-of-the-box opinions --

0:05:35.247,0:05:36.654
but then if they're opinions,

0:05:36.654,0:05:38.809
they should be part of the conversation.

0:05:38.809,0:05:42.457
And then they encroach on the facts.

0:05:43.425,0:05:45.011
I published my work --

0:05:45.011,0:05:46.208
the book was published,

0:05:46.208,0:05:49.745
"Denying the Holocaust: The Growing[br]Assault on Truth and Memory,"

0:05:49.745,0:05:51.724
it came out in many different countries,

0:05:51.724,0:05:54.014
including here and Penguin UK,

0:05:54.018,0:05:57.643
and I was done with those folks[br]and ready to move on.

0:05:58.386,0:06:02.673
Then came the letter[br]from Penguin UK,

0:06:02.673,0:06:07.454
and for the third time, I laughed ...

0:06:07.454,0:06:08.694
mistakenly.

0:06:09.131,0:06:10.877
I opened the letter,

0:06:10.877,0:06:16.788
and it informed me that David Irving[br]was bringing a libel suit against me

0:06:16.788,0:06:18.408
in the United Kingdom

0:06:18.408,0:06:21.699
for calling him a Holocaust denier.

0:06:22.025,0:06:23.982
David Irving suing me?

0:06:23.982,0:06:25.352
Who was David Irving?

0:06:25.352,0:06:27.982
David Irving was a writer[br]of historical works,

0:06:27.982,0:06:30.028
most of them about World War II,

0:06:30.028,0:06:33.270
and virtually all of those works[br]took the position

0:06:33.270,0:06:36.871
that the nazis were really not so bad,

0:06:36.871,0:06:39.883
and the allies were really not so good,

0:06:39.883,0:06:40.877
and the Jews,

0:06:40.877,0:06:42.153
whatever happened to them,

0:06:42.153,0:06:43.835
they sort of deserved it.

0:06:44.357,0:06:45.871
He knew the documents,

0:06:45.871,0:06:47.416
he knew the facts,

0:06:47.416,0:06:50.814
but he somehow twisted them[br]to get this opinion.

0:06:51.048,0:06:53.721
He hadn't always been a Holocaust denier,

0:06:53.721,0:06:55.566
but in the late '80s,

0:06:55.566,0:06:58.621
he embraced it with great vigor.

0:06:59.811,0:07:03.534
The reason I laughed also[br]was this was a man

0:07:03.534,0:07:05.491
who not only was a Holocaust denier,

0:07:05.491,0:07:07.056
but seemed quite proud of it.

0:07:07.299,0:07:08.302
Here was a man --

0:07:08.302,0:07:09.295
and I quote --

0:07:09.295,0:07:12.564
who said, "I'm going to sink[br]the battleship Auschwitz."

0:07:13.568,0:07:18.019
Here was a man who pointed[br]to the number tattooed on a survivor's arm

0:07:18.019,0:07:21.517
and said, "How much money have you made

0:07:21.517,0:07:25.630
from having that number[br]tattooed on your arm?"

0:07:25.804,0:07:27.735
Here was a man who said,

0:07:27.735,0:07:32.050
"More people died in Senator Kennedy's[br]car at Chappaquiddick

0:07:32.050,0:07:35.318
than died in gas chambers at Auschwitz."

0:07:35.318,0:07:36.718
That's an American reference,

0:07:36.718,0:07:38.140
but you can look it up.

0:07:39.534,0:07:42.571
This was not a man who seemed[br]at all ashamed or reticent

0:07:42.571,0:07:44.827
about being a Holocaust denier.

0:07:45.247,0:07:49.161
Now, lots of my academic[br]colleagues counseled me --

0:07:49.161,0:07:51.090
"Eh, Deborah, just ignore it."

0:07:51.090,0:07:54.777
When I explained you can't[br]just ignore a libel suit,

0:07:54.777,0:07:57.657
they said, "Who's gonna[br]believe him anyway?"

0:07:57.910,0:07:59.765
But here was the problem.

0:08:00.013,0:08:02.653
British law put the onus --

0:08:02.653,0:08:05.478
put the burden of proof on me

0:08:05.478,0:08:08.212
to prove the truth of what I said,

0:08:08.212,0:08:10.871
in contrast to as it would have[br]been in the United States

0:08:10.871,0:08:12.498
and in many other countries,

0:08:12.498,0:08:15.747
on him to prove the falsehood.

0:08:16.017,0:08:17.658
What did that mean?

0:08:17.658,0:08:20.965
That meant if I didn't fight,

0:08:20.965,0:08:23.681
he would win by default.

0:08:23.998,0:08:25.841
And if he won by default,

0:08:25.841,0:08:28.505
he could then legitimately say,

0:08:28.505,0:08:33.504
"My David Irving version of the Holocaust[br]is a legitimate version.

0:08:33.683,0:08:35.774
Deborah Lipstadt was found[br]to have libeled me

0:08:35.774,0:08:37.854
when she called me a Holocaust denier,

0:08:37.854,0:08:42.062
ipso facto, I David Irving, am not[br]a Holocaust denier."

0:08:42.305,0:08:44.207
And what is that version?

0:08:44.614,0:08:47.633
There was no plan to murder the Jews,

0:08:47.633,0:08:49.708
there were no gas chambers,

0:08:49.708,0:08:51.587
there were no mass shootings,

0:08:51.587,0:08:54.781
Hitler had nothing to do with any[br]suffering that went on,

0:08:54.781,0:08:58.609
and the Jews have made this all up

0:08:58.609,0:09:00.879
to get money from Germany

0:09:00.879,0:09:02.915
and to get a state,

0:09:02.915,0:09:06.315
and they've done it with the aid[br]and [abetence] of the allies --

0:09:06.315,0:09:09.780
they've planted the documents[br]and planted the evidence.

0:09:10.580,0:09:15.974
I couldn't let that stand[br]and ever face a survivor ...

0:09:15.974,0:09:17.972
or a child of survivors.

0:09:17.972,0:09:20.088
I couldn't let that stand

0:09:20.088,0:09:24.575
and consider myself[br]a responsible historian.

0:09:25.315,0:09:27.083
So we fought,

0:09:27.083,0:09:29.322
and for those of you[br]who haven't seen "Denial,"

0:09:29.322,0:09:30.543
spoiler alert --

0:09:30.543,0:09:31.784
we won.

0:09:31.784,0:09:33.102
(Laughter)

0:09:33.102,0:09:35.669
(Applause)

0:09:40.274,0:09:47.744
The judge found David Irving to be a liar,

0:09:47.744,0:09:48.761
a racist,

0:09:48.761,0:09:50.318
an anti-Semite.

0:09:50.318,0:09:52.701
His view of history was [tendentious],

0:09:52.701,0:09:54.650
he lied, he distorted,

0:09:54.650,0:09:57.316
and most importantly,

0:09:57.316,0:09:59.271
he did it deliberately.

0:09:59.452,0:10:01.048
We showed a pattern,

0:10:01.048,0:10:03.557
and over 25 different major instances --

0:10:03.557,0:10:04.656
not small things,

0:10:04.656,0:10:06.564
many of us in the audience write books,

0:10:06.565,0:10:07.780
are writing books --

0:10:07.780,0:10:09.316
we always make mistakes,

0:10:09.316,0:10:11.406
that's why we're glad[br]to have second editions --

0:10:11.406,0:10:12.483
correct the mistakes.

0:10:12.483,0:10:13.788
(Laughter)

0:10:14.698,0:10:18.777
But these always moved[br]in the same direction:

0:10:18.777,0:10:21.011
blame the Jews,

0:10:21.011,0:10:23.587
exonerate the nazis.

0:10:23.852,0:10:25.778
But how did we win?

0:10:26.379,0:10:31.759
What we did is follow his footnotes[br]back to his sources.

0:10:32.254,0:10:33.975
And what did we find?

0:10:34.156,0:10:35.658
Not in most cases,

0:10:35.658,0:10:37.477
and not in the preponderance of cases,

0:10:37.477,0:10:39.216
but in every single instance

0:10:39.216,0:10:41.999
where he made some[br]reference to the Holocaust,

0:10:41.999,0:10:46.264
that his supposed evidence was disorted,

0:10:46.264,0:10:47.707
half-truth,

0:10:47.707,0:10:49.064
date-changed,

0:10:49.064,0:10:51.274
sequence-changed,

0:10:51.274,0:10:53.343
someone put in a meeting[br]who wasn't there.

0:10:53.343,0:10:54.359
In other words,

0:10:54.359,0:10:56.039
he didn't have the evidence.

0:10:56.039,0:10:58.150
His evidence didn't prove it.

0:10:58.399,0:11:01.427
We didn't prove what happened.

0:11:01.676,0:11:04.315
We proved that what he said happened --

0:11:04.315,0:11:05.997
and by extension all deniers

0:11:05.997,0:11:09.810
because he either quotes them[br]or they get their arguments from him --

0:11:09.810,0:11:10.866
is not true.

0:11:11.079,0:11:12.291
What they claim --

0:11:12.291,0:11:15.476
they don't have the evidence to prove it.

0:11:16.826,0:11:21.661
So why is my story[br]more than just the story

0:11:21.661,0:11:25.280
of a quirky, long,[br]six-year difficult lawsuit --

0:11:25.280,0:11:30.457
an American professor[br]being dragged into a courtroom

0:11:30.457,0:11:33.524
by a man that the court[br]declared in its judgment

0:11:33.524,0:11:35.619
was a neo-nazi polemicist?

0:11:35.619,0:11:37.543
What message does it have?

0:11:38.022,0:11:41.018
I think in the context[br]of the question of truth,

0:11:41.018,0:11:43.218
it has a very significant message.

0:11:43.503,0:11:45.311
Because today,

0:11:45.311,0:11:47.000
as we well know,

0:11:47.000,0:11:51.383
truth and facts are under assault.

0:11:51.814,0:11:55.089
Social media, for all[br]the gifts it has given us,

0:11:55.089,0:11:58.845
has also allowed the difference[br]between facts --

0:11:58.845,0:12:00.852
established facts --

0:12:00.852,0:12:04.653
and lies to be flattened.

0:12:04.990,0:12:06.806
Third of all,

0:12:06.806,0:12:08.277
extremism.

0:12:08.988,0:12:12.763
You made not see Ku Klux Klan robes,

0:12:12.763,0:12:14.920
you may not see burning crosses,

0:12:14.920,0:12:19.210
you may not even hear[br]outright white supremacist language.

0:12:19.210,0:12:21.287
It may go by names, "alt-right,

0:12:21.287,0:12:22.693
National Front" --

0:12:22.693,0:12:24.089
pick you names --

0:12:24.089,0:12:29.947
but underneath it's that same extremism[br]that I found in Holocaust denial

0:12:29.947,0:12:33.540
parading as rational discourse.

0:12:35.365,0:12:40.344
We live in an age where truth[br]is on the defensive.

0:12:40.605,0:12:43.112
I'm reminded of a New Yorker cartoon.

0:12:43.112,0:12:45.555
A quiz show recently appeared[br]in the New Yorker

0:12:45.555,0:12:48.756
where the host of the quiz show[br]is saying to one of the contestants,

0:12:48.756,0:12:51.228
"Yes, mam, you had the right answer,

0:12:51.228,0:12:53.602
but your opponent yelled[br]more loudly than you did,

0:12:53.602,0:12:55.127
so he gets the point."

0:12:56.419,0:12:58.264
What can we do?

0:12:58.661,0:13:00.202
First of all,

0:13:00.202,0:13:05.428
we cannot be beguiled[br]by rational appearances.

0:13:05.627,0:13:07.419
We've got to look underneath,

0:13:07.419,0:13:10.377
and we will find there the extremism.

0:13:11.015,0:13:13.141
Second of all,

0:13:13.141,0:13:19.222
we must understand[br]that truth is not relative.

0:13:21.137,0:13:22.784
Number three --

0:13:22.784,0:13:26.496
we must go on the offensive,

0:13:26.496,0:13:28.489
not the defensive.

0:13:28.875,0:13:31.505
When someone makes an outrageous claim,

0:13:31.505,0:13:35.032
even though they may hold[br]one of the highest offices in the land,

0:13:35.032,0:13:37.066
if not the world --

0:13:37.066,0:13:38.599
we must say to them,

0:13:38.599,0:13:40.588
"Where's the proof?

0:13:40.588,0:13:42.450
Where's the evidence?"

0:13:42.748,0:13:45.698
We must hold their feet to the fire.

0:13:45.698,0:13:50.251
We must not treat it as if their lies[br]are the same as the facts.

0:13:51.497,0:13:52.569
And as I said earlier,

0:13:52.569,0:13:54.847
truth is not relative.

0:13:55.135,0:13:58.014
Many of us have grown up[br]in the world of the academy

0:13:58.014,0:13:59.778
and enlightened liberal thought,

0:13:59.778,0:14:02.985
where we're taught everything[br]is open to debate.

0:14:03.347,0:14:05.151
But that's not the case.

0:14:05.384,0:14:09.031
There are certain things that are true.

0:14:09.288,0:14:12.517
There are indisputable facts --

0:14:12.517,0:14:14.207
objective truths.

0:14:14.623,0:14:19.416
Galileo taught it to us centuries ago.

0:14:19.416,0:14:24.230
Even after being forced[br]to recant by the Vatican

0:14:24.230,0:14:26.744
that the Earth moved around the Sun,

0:14:26.744,0:14:27.779
he came out,

0:14:27.779,0:14:30.299
and what is he reported to have said?

0:14:30.299,0:14:34.408
"And yet, it still moves."

0:14:35.422,0:14:37.967
The Earth is not flat.

0:14:38.333,0:14:41.201
The climate is changing.

0:14:41.507,0:14:43.798
Elvis is not alive.

0:14:43.798,0:14:45.356
(Laughter)

0:14:45.356,0:14:47.244
(Applause)

0:14:47.737,0:14:50.061
And most importantly,

0:14:50.061,0:14:54.710
truth and fact are under assault.

0:14:55.385,0:14:57.018
The job ahead of us,

0:14:57.018,0:14:58.244
the task ahead of us,

0:14:58.244,0:15:01.696
the challenge ahead of us is great.

0:15:01.978,0:15:04.615
The time to fight is short.

0:15:05.543,0:15:09.230
We must act now,

0:15:09.230,0:15:12.278
later will be too late.

0:15:12.437,0:15:14.090
Thank you very much.

0:15:14.090,0:15:15.973
(Applause)