WEBVTT
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rc3 2021 preroll now here @c-base
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Herald: The Facebook files last year,
Harvard graduated and Facebook employe,
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FH enhanded huge internal
Facebook documents to, among others,
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newspapers, journals and in fact, the US
Senate said it was there to testify about
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Facebook's conduct. This has gained
quite some, quite some attention, but at
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least in Germany not as
ambitious as it should have. And I'm
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welcoming today. Lena? And Svea? HalIo! Will
be giving us the better insight into
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Facebook files. We believe in having a 30
minute talk by the end about it wasn't in
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our Q&A after that. So please do continue
with your questions on the various
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channels. They will hopefully miraculously
a few of this week to be transferred over
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the air to our mates, who will be giving
us many insights. The screen is yours very
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much.
Svea: OK. Thank you so much. It's great to
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be here. Sorry, first of all, for my voice
because I'm having the Congress flu
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without Congress laughing. No, just
just the bad cold, but no COVID. So
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everything is fine. Yeah. Thank you so
much for welcoming us today. Before we
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dive into the Facebook files and give you
a an exclusive view and inside, let us
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shortly introduce us. So yeah, I do. Lena,
you go first.
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Lena: I am Lena. I'm an investigative
reporter with the WDR Zeitung in Berlin
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and they mostly work on terror
investigations, but also anything complex.
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So I, of course, jumped on the Facebook
files as well.
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Svea: Yes. And my name is Svea. I also am
an investigative reporter working
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freelance for NDR television, mostly on
tech issues. And then Lena and I, we
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worked very closely together for several
weeks or months now on the Facebook files.
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We were in the team. We had the contact to
FH first and Europe and also
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we had to. We had the chance to look and
work very closely with the files, and we
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did a lot of stories on these issues. And
so we thought, this would be a great time
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to give some behind the scenes views and
to tell you a little bit what's not all
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in all the newspapers, some more details
about, FH and also what's in
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the files and what's not in the files and
how they should be read or interpreted. So
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this is what this is about, and I will now
open the presentation on the screen and
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vanish behind behind it. So yeah, have a
great time and Lena will start first. OK,
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let's see. This is who we are you. We just
told you. And then let's go, Lena.
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Lena: I consider the presentation,
Svea: OK, sorry. Then let's just get to
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make sure that yes, is it? Yes. Sorry. OK,
now this should work. Who is FH?
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OK. Lena, you go first.
Lena: So who is FH? Most of
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you have seen already, but in the
beginning wasn't so clear in September,
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when, in September 2021, the Wall Street
Journal started publishing a series of
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articles and podcasts under the name of
the Facebook Files. The leaker was still
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anonymous. The reports were riveting
because these journalists from the Wall
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Street Journal had were using hundreds and
thousands of internal documents from
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Facebook Internal Employee Network, and
only after a few weeks it was announced
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that the leaker will cooperate with
Congress and the SEC, the Securities and
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Exchange Commission, and reveal their
identity and. By then, we were already
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talking to Frances in video call, and she
appeared on the screen as a very normal
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woman, our age with headphones and on her
couch. And until October, the beginning of
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October, we knew her under a codename. So
until she really revealed her identity,
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she was also using a code name with us as
journalists. And. Yeah, we learned that
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that she was 37 years old, she was born in
Iowa. And both her parents are professors,
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but her mother later became a priest. And
Frances went on to study electrical
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computer engineering at a small college
named Olin College in Massachusetts,
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and she later became a data engineer and
product manager for Google, mainly working
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on Google books. Then she got a job at
Yelp and Pinterest. And then in 2018, she
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got offered a job at Facebook. And first
she was very hesitant. She told us because
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of Facebook, the reputation for being an
engine of medicalization and because of
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the personal experience. Frances, how
happened to her friends? And this is a
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clip from our interview last year. video
plays Yeah, let's try to do what I want
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to do to what you do. So I came into
Facebook. I was asked by Facebook to take
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stock of mobile to give a platform
exclusively outage and point system. It
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has the internet become easy to talk to?
That is yes. No, Oh my God, this problem
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is still going to feel so much larger than
you might otherwise. Video ends
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Lena: So as soon as we heard when she
arrived at Facebook, the disenchantment or
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the the problems she saw started
immediately because immediately she saw
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that. What she had thought of Facebook as
an engine of radicalization was even
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bigger. And with her personal experience,
just to explain that in a few years back,
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she got very sick and she had an assistant
who later became almost like a brother, a
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very close friend, and she lost him to the
rabbit hole. His journey started. Yeah,
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on normal social media sites and that
4chan and let him through the of
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conspiracy. And she told her that she was
shocked, that she lost him and that he was
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unreachable for facts. At some point, she
wasn't able to have a conversation with
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him anymore. So when she got offered the
job and was able to do the job and the
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integrity method, the team at Facebook
that was formed to protect the US
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elections and working on civic integrity.
She really thought that you could make a
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change. But she realized,
that the companies, she said, didn't want
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to change, although she really admired her
coworkers. He said they were really smart
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and creative people. But she said the
leadership didn't want to listen. And so
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in the end, after about two years, she
became a whistleblower. And when you talk
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to her today. You can see that it seems
like she's the perfect person to do that.
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She seems really at ease with her role,
and she's found her role also to be in the
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public and to put a face on the
whistleblowing. She says her both
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parents are professors, and it feels very
natural to her to sit and explain things
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to people. And that's what she does now as
a teenager. She's really touring the world
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to get her message out. And also we learn
that she has a photographic memory, a very
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good memory, and that she's financially
independent because she invested in crypto
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in the early days. So, yeah, she seems to
be. Yeah, yeah. Whistleblower, almost. And
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gone, yeah. But let's go to her motivated
way in the end, she wanted to become a
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whistleblower. So these two clips from our
interview again, she told us that
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when she was at Facebook: "I was faced. So
this is hard. Patients, I was faced with
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information that I believe put many, maybe
a million or 10 million lives on the line.
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I sat there and you were staring down at a
situation where you believe maybe 10
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million people could die over the next 20
years. And I knew that I had the
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information that could potentially face in
a fraction of those life. She has to do
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something." And now she says: "It's not about
bad people or bad content at Facebook,
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it's about a system. And like either
the organization incentives or the
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incentives at Facebook, they are they.
They are wrong. They are skewed." And then
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also, she says that she failed to change
the system from within, and she realized:
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"This problem was so much larger than even
I thought it was. I kept trying and
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trying. At some point, I read the
realization that there was enough
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systematic problems that I would have at
some point to figure out how to bring the
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information to the public." So she tried
actually to make her complaints heard in
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the company, but that she had the the she
was under the impression, that the
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leadership didn't want to listen.
Svea: Yes. And I think with this things
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you have now learned about FH
I think if you know all this things you
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can understand the leak much better and
this is what we're going to do now. So we
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will dive into the Files. And if you have
all this in mind, so what was her
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motivation, then you will now see and
understand better, why some things are in
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the Files and why some things aren't.
Because you now know why she did what she
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did and what type of person so roughly she
is. So let's go to the revelation timeline
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just just quickly here. In December 2020,
she worked into the Civic Integrity Team,
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but this team got dissolved and there was
a Wall Street Journal reporter and he saw
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a chance and asked all these, all the
people who worked there, and he tried to
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get interviews with them. And he also got
the chance to meet FH and
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probably the and the podcast from Wall
Street Journal he tells the story that
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they were talking to each other. And yeah,
probably this also. Yeah. Get confidence
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that there's somebody she probably could
talk to, and we assume that then she
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started collecting the files, but this
stays blurry. So maybe she started
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earlier. But this is something not which
is not really known and which is not
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really answered clearly. So she's always
when we asked her, she was always speaking
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from summer. So summer, summer, maybe this
is the summer 21, then the Wall Street
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Journal story just got out. And I think
what's also interesting here to see is,
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that you have this time period from
December to September. So more than half a
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year from the first contact, from the
reporter to the leakage. So I think this
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is quite interesting. And then you have
the filing to the S.E.C. and to U.S.
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Congress via whistleblower AID. We will
talk about this later, too. And then
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things get rush and then things get IQ
each or then the everything gets very
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fast. So there you have the filing, then
you have the revealing of the identity.
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And on the 5th of October, she is speaking
to Congress and then all the publications
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maybe you all have read or some of them,
who you have read went out. So it's pretty
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interesting to see now. Oh yeah. And then
we also implemented when we come and
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place, what was in the beginning of
October. This is where we broke the first
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story. And then formed the EU consortium. So
we thought, maybe what's most what's
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probably most interesting for you here,
guys, is not the question what's in the
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files? We'll tell about this later, too,
about what? What's not in the files? Maybe
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this is the more interesting question. And
so to get the answer to that, it's
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really important to understand the nature
of the files where the files come from and
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about what kind of files we are talking
when we're speaking about the Facebook
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files. And as Lena already mentioned,
FH was a data scientist within
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Facebook. She worked with the Civic
Integrity Team and later she worked with
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counter-espionage. So she was regular
Facebook employee. She had she hadn't have
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a high rank or something. She wasn't part
of the board or she wasn't an executive
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person. So of course, she had limited
access to documents. But yeah, luckily for
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her, Facebook maintains a quite
transparent approach regarding its own
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research and a lot of other relevant
information, probably a lot more
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transparent than other companies. So you,
you have and Facebook, you have some kind
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of internal Facebook, which is called a
workplace and and workplace. You find a
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vast, vast amount of internal research
reports and people are discussing this
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research with each other. And but I must
admit so in these research that you have a
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lot of technical terms and you have a lot
of teams speaking to each other, the
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researches made for Facebook employees.
Of course, it's full of abbreviations or
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yeah, terms you can't or hardly
understand as an outsider, so we will get
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into that later. So to give you a glimpse
of how is a file, how what did we see when
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we dived into it? So you have these
totally unstructured PDF documents with
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more than an estimated 10000 pages? They
all photographed. And there you have this
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research and also these discussions and
you see here where I did the pink arrows.
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You can see how it looks and it looks a
little bit like Facebook. You have groups
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of groups and you have comments, you have
smileys and then you have these black
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redactions, which were made later on
because all these fires were made for
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Congress. And so all the names were
redacted. And this this is pretty
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important to know when you think about
what the files don't tell. So what's
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missing? As I told you, that FH, she was
part of the executive
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board, so it is not in the files what Mark
Zuckerberg or other key executive know. As
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these are not reports directly to Mark
Zuckerberg as these are research reports
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for the internal network. So they don't
say much about leadership or about
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decisions from leadership or what was
discussed by leadership. Sometimes you
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have these postings in the internal
Facebook where leadership is discussing
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something, so you get an idea or a glimpse
what the board or what high rank execute
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thoughts. But this is basically
something what the files are not telling.
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Then the Facebook files don't provide any
context. And this is something I've ...
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what also FH thinks, what's yeah,
really is the reason why she gave all
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these files to journalists, because she
hoped that we could provide context,
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because there are no information on who
did the report. So usually the authors
00:17:56.720 --> 00:18:02.392
redacted. So you can't see. Is he a good
researcher? Is he long working with his
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book or what? What has he got for an
education? So you don't know how reliable
00:18:08.319 --> 00:18:14.360
they are or what happened before the
study, or after all? And I think this is
00:18:14.360 --> 00:18:19.994
very important and we especially saw this.
I don't know if you remember the reporting
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on the Instagram study and when you read
the Instagram study very closely, you see
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that there that they are talking about a
dozen people who they have conducted
00:18:32.328 --> 00:18:39.700
interviews, qualitative interviews with.
And this is a research which is highly
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qualitative and not quantitative, so it's
not representative. And so this is very
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important if you look at the files that
you look at the numbers, how many people
00:18:53.529 --> 00:19:01.173
with how many people are study is
conducted or with how many accounts or how
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many? Yeah, what what is it really about?
And then you also see in the file that
00:19:07.574 --> 00:19:12.369
there are specific areas which are very
well represented, like hate speech. I
00:19:12.369 --> 00:19:19.376
think this is an issue, FH worked a lot on
it and the civic integrity teams
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at other areas are
missing or not represented. So, for
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example, I'm very interested in fake
accounts. So this was the first thing I
00:19:29.333 --> 00:19:34.791
did when I was sweating through the files
and what is what research is down fake
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accounts. There is some research, of
course, but yeah, I was I was saying, I
00:19:41.209 --> 00:19:47.416
was missing content and I thought, Oh,
there need to be more or about scam. I
00:19:47.416 --> 00:19:52.097
don't know if you know, love scams,
though. I did not find anything about this
00:19:52.097 --> 00:19:56.775
or click farms, then engagement numbers.
They are some engagement numbers, but not
00:19:56.775 --> 00:20:03.871
that much. So I I can only speculate about
why there are some areas very well
00:20:03.871 --> 00:20:09.834
represented in the files, and some aren't.
But I think probably this are different
00:20:09.834 --> 00:20:17.819
reasons. So on the one hand, FH,
she had a specific time, limited time to
00:20:17.819 --> 00:20:26.192
get these files and also probably she had
limited areas where she could go and read
00:20:26.192 --> 00:20:32.442
these documents. And also, of course,
these are internal research. This is
00:20:32.442 --> 00:20:37.395
entirely research. These are internal
studies. So there are only studies that
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facebook employes start.
This was some kind we definitely should
00:20:41.948 --> 00:20:46.711
investigate, and if there's no if they
didn't feel the urge to investigate it, of
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course they can't be a file. So these are
some reasons, I think, why some areas are
00:20:52.862 --> 00:21:01.648
missing. OK, so now laugh let's get to
the good part. So what's In the files? I
00:21:01.648 --> 00:21:07.534
think some of you probably have read or
heard about the Wall Street Journal
00:21:07.534 --> 00:21:13.014
revelations, so we do not want to dive
into this because this is broadly known
00:21:13.014 --> 00:21:17.880
about, that celebrities were treated
differently, that human trafficking goes
00:21:17.880 --> 00:21:24.914
on on Facebook. I don't know who watched
Jan Bömermann. He began talking about this
00:21:24.914 --> 00:21:30.847
on that Instagram was toxic for teens or
Mexican drug cartels using Facebook, or
00:21:30.847 --> 00:21:36.007
that Facebook changed the news algorithm
and polarization got worse. So this are
00:21:36.007 --> 00:21:42.774
the this is where the first revelations.
So let's talk about growth. So this was
00:21:42.774 --> 00:21:47.579
something I was looking into it's, because
I'm pretty interested in the whole fake
00:21:47.579 --> 00:21:53.398
accounts area. So I looked into growth and
I found it pretty interesting because
00:21:53.398 --> 00:21:59.636
Facebook is always speaking about growth
and that they are growing and making more
00:21:59.636 --> 00:22:05.723
and more profits. And of course, this is
true. But if you look through the files
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and you can see that young users,
especially users under the age of 25, that
00:22:11.476 --> 00:22:17.128
these are the numbers are decreasing. And
that's what you can see here pretty
00:22:17.128 --> 00:22:22.720
closely. You have the red line and then
you have the blue line. These are
00:22:22.720 --> 00:22:31.910
symbolizing the younger users under 25.
And even in COVID times where you have on
00:22:31.910 --> 00:22:39.543
the right corners, you see this spike and
all the other age groups, especially, I
00:22:39.543 --> 00:22:44.769
think people above 50 got highly
interested in Facebook during COVID. Now
00:22:44.769 --> 00:22:50.240
it's just shocking. So you have every age
group is highly is using Facebook more
00:22:51.040 --> 00:22:58.560
during COVID, but not so that people under
25. And this is pretty interesting because
00:22:58.560 --> 00:23:05.200
of the filing for the FCC, the
Börsenaufsicht and there because what is
00:23:05.200 --> 00:23:10.240
with the advertisers and is Facebook
really telling the truth when they always
00:23:10.240 --> 00:23:16.720
talking about growth and profits. Then I
think hate speech pretty important. And
00:23:16.720 --> 00:23:22.720
there are a lot of case studies about
especially poorer countries or high risk
00:23:22.720 --> 00:23:27.760
countries and that they are the
polarization goes on and that Facebook is
00:23:27.760 --> 00:23:36.320
not taking enough measures, especially for
sub languages on the far right for Arabic
00:23:36.320 --> 00:23:43.200
countries or Asian countries or African
countries. Even worse, where you have
00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:47.520
often a lot of dialects and a lot of
languages, and that there are not many
00:23:47.520 --> 00:23:53.840
people doing, for example, content
moderation. And one of the probably most
00:23:53.840 --> 00:23:59.600
difficult documents, but I think one of
the most interesting ones, this one. So
00:23:59.600 --> 00:24:05.440
sorry, I think you can't read a lot, but I
will explain as this report, it's called
00:24:05.440 --> 00:24:12.160
the OpEx report. And it's it's really a
long document with a lot of numbers, but I
00:24:12.160 --> 00:24:16.240
liked it very much because there were so
many numbers and it was quite an official
00:24:16.240 --> 00:24:23.200
document and not only a study of one
researcher did, and in his opex report,
00:24:23.200 --> 00:24:27.760
you can see the missed proportion and
spending money to fight misinformation
00:24:27.760 --> 00:24:34.160
between English speaking countries like
the U.S. and ArW, this the rest of world.
00:24:34.960 --> 00:24:40.800
So you see here on the document, on the
right, you see on the first column you see
00:24:40.800 --> 00:24:46.720
misinformation and then you have these
rows and then on the row, the right
00:24:46.720 --> 00:24:53.280
corner, you can see that money or man
hours. Is this transferred into man hours
00:24:53.920 --> 00:25:03.200
that 84 percent man hours? Here is the
first Quartal quarter of 2020 that 84
00:25:03.200 --> 00:25:11.440
percent was spent for misinformation, and
rest of world is 16 percent, which if you
00:25:11.440 --> 00:25:17.360
compare the U.S. to the rest of the world,
you can see definitely see where the
00:25:17.360 --> 00:25:23.360
focus, where Facebook focus lies. And this
of this also was one document FH
00:25:23.360 --> 00:25:28.080
pointed us through and said, You
have to check the numbers and then you can
00:25:28.080 --> 00:25:34.800
see what I mean when I say they are, yeah,
profit and growth is more important for
00:25:34.800 --> 00:25:43.600
Facebook than human lives. I hope this
very yeah, this document makes this clear.
00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:50.160
OK, yeah. What does Facebook say? Facebook
says, No. We're doing a lot of course and
00:25:50.160 --> 00:25:56.080
everything and the people using Facebook.
This is really important to us. OK, and
00:25:56.080 --> 00:26:03.120
now for the last part, I give, yeah, Lena
will tell you something more about the
00:26:03.120 --> 00:26:09.040
fight within. Lena: Yeah, thank you very
much. So what is really interesting to us
00:26:09.040 --> 00:26:14.560
is to see the discussion in the work
culture and the discussions among among
00:26:14.560 --> 00:26:19.760
teams and among employees. And you could
see that in the chat, that was going on,
00:26:19.760 --> 00:26:27.360
especially under some of the studies. And
it was kind of confirming our impression
00:26:27.360 --> 00:26:32.960
that Facebook, that there was a lot of
debate, internal debate and that there was
00:26:32.960 --> 00:26:38.320
a lot of frustration among employees
because as we have counted, there were at
00:26:38.320 --> 00:26:45.440
least 11 major leaks since 2016. Most of
them remained anonymous. But there were
00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:52.400
also some that happened that went public.
For example, Sophie Zangh went public
00:26:52.400 --> 00:27:01.520
in April 2000 and 2021, and there was just
a few months before FH came
00:27:01.520 --> 00:27:09.680
out and became public and made that made
it public that she had leaked documents.
00:27:09.680 --> 00:27:14.800
Zangh has not leaked any documents that
she had talked to reporters. And and and
00:27:14.800 --> 00:27:23.600
she hurt her when she entered her
employment with Facebook. And she said she
00:27:23.600 --> 00:27:28.160
posted a batch post this kind of part of
the internal exchanges, and we found many
00:27:28.160 --> 00:27:34.950
of these batch posts. And she posted, I found
multiple blatant attempts by foreign
00:27:34.950 --> 00:27:39.280
national governments to abuse our platform
and that failed to mislead their own
00:27:39.280 --> 00:27:45.280
citizenry and cost international news on
multiple occasions. And she was just as
00:27:45.280 --> 00:27:53.360
FH, she was concerned with
Facebook lack of content moderation and
00:27:53.360 --> 00:27:59.760
lack of enforcement of community standards
outside of the U.S.. And so this just to
00:27:59.760 --> 00:28:08.320
show you that in term of debate was very,
very public internally. So I mean, we
00:28:08.320 --> 00:28:18.880
found another batch code. It was called
leaving Q&A. This was from May 2000 at
00:28:19.920 --> 00:28:31.280
from May 2021, and there this person was
concerned about hate speech and this
00:28:31.280 --> 00:28:35.520
person said she couldn't take it anymore
just to be an on Facebook employee because
00:28:35.520 --> 00:28:39.840
she says with so many internal forces propping
up the production of hateful and violent
00:28:39.840 --> 00:28:45.840
content. The task of stopping hate and
violence on Facebook starts to feel even
00:28:45.840 --> 00:28:50.560
more sisyphean than it already is and
shaming internal forces, meaning the
00:28:50.560 --> 00:28:58.240
leadership and this is something that I,
this person says, so many internal
00:28:58.240 --> 00:29:03.440
forces and the leadership. This is
something that FH was also
00:29:03.440 --> 00:29:10.000
really concerned about that. On the one
hand, there are people working on
00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:15.440
combating hate speech and changing the
algorithms to make it more a better and
00:29:16.480 --> 00:29:21.680
safer environment. And then, on the other
hand, that there are some forces in that
00:29:21.680 --> 00:29:30.000
in the company that apparently work
against these efforts. And this fight that
00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:35.520
we could see, could you go back, and
this fight that we could see was
00:29:35.520 --> 00:29:50.080
especially viral after January six, after
the storm of the Capitol and their
00:29:50.080 --> 00:29:55.680
employees were very much discussing and
they were very they were furious. And one
00:29:55.680 --> 00:30:00.480
one person has said, we've been fueling
this fire for a long time and we shouldn't
00:30:00.480 --> 00:30:05.200
be surprised. It's now out of control. So
employers are giving Facebook
00:30:05.760 --> 00:30:12.400
responsibility for the development. And
another person said, employers employees
00:30:13.280 --> 00:30:17.280
should say employees are tired of thoughts
and prayers from leadership. We want
00:30:17.280 --> 00:30:22.480
action. And another person said so many
research backed ideas get shut down. We
00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:26.800
need to do a better job at making
decisions from a research perspective, and
00:30:26.800 --> 00:30:32.560
this is something that's also very close
to FH. She said in our
00:30:32.560 --> 00:30:40.376
interview, she says there are solutions
that are there are wonderful employers and
00:30:40.376 --> 00:30:45.679
wonderful teams, who are working to come
up with solutions. But they are they are
00:30:45.679 --> 00:30:52.897
blocked by leadership out of a for profit
interests. And this here's a screenshot of
00:30:52.897 --> 00:30:59.305
another person saying I'm struggling to
match my values to my employment here. I
00:30:59.305 --> 00:31:04.737
came here hoping to effect change and
improve society, but I've seen it atrophy
00:31:04.737 --> 00:31:10.033
and abdication of responsibility. I'm
tired of platitudes. I want action items.
00:31:10.033 --> 00:31:16.755
We are not a neutral entity, so employee
seems to be extremely critical of
00:31:16.755 --> 00:31:32.230
Facebook. Yeah. And so as a general take
away, you could say that we expect to see
00:31:32.230 --> 00:31:37.760
more leaks from Facebook. We expect to see
more whistleblowers coming out of this
00:31:37.760 --> 00:31:42.307
work culture because people seem to be
extremely frustrated. And this is also
00:31:42.307 --> 00:31:46.696
just to wrap it up. This is Facebook
reaction to the Facebook files and the
00:31:46.696 --> 00:31:53.169
revelation that came out after October 4th
after after FH went public at Mark
00:31:53.169 --> 00:31:59.820
Zuckerberg said this week. And in a
message to his employees, he said: "We care
00:31:59.820 --> 00:32:05.047
deeply about issues like safety, well-
being and mental health and the coverage
00:32:05.047 --> 00:32:13.160
that misrepresents our work and our
motive." And Facebook Communications VP
00:32:13.160 --> 00:32:22.045
John Pernetti said. Even that it was an
orchestrated campaign against Facebook and
00:32:22.045 --> 00:32:27.594
in response to our reporting, he said: "We
welcome scrutiny and feedback that these
00:32:27.594 --> 00:32:32.021
documents are being used to paint a
narrative that we hide or that that that
00:32:32.021 --> 00:32:36.655
was terrible, that we hide or cherry
picked data when in fact we do the
00:32:36.655 --> 00:32:43.199
opposite." So they are they they are kind
of blankly refusing FH
00:32:43.199 --> 00:32:52.800
accusations. But earn a T. What what's
happened to FH during this
00:32:52.800 --> 00:33:00.160
process? I think he was talking to a
reporter early on and she was on her own.
00:33:01.760 --> 00:33:08.080
But when when she started and when when
the when the revelations started in The
00:33:08.080 --> 00:33:17.920
Wall Street Journal, apparently we don't
know. And I am sorry, I'm hearing the
00:33:17.920 --> 00:33:24.160
sound from the c-base, and that's why I
was a bit confused. But in the process of
00:33:24.160 --> 00:33:29.920
leaking documents, she got in contact with
the whistleblower aid, which was founded
00:33:29.920 --> 00:33:39.200
by a former whistleblower, John Tye, and
which is a nonprofit organization claiming
00:33:39.200 --> 00:33:42.560
that no one should have to risk their
career or their freedom to follow their
00:33:42.560 --> 00:33:48.320
conscience. And some of you may know the
executive director Libby knew a former CEO
00:33:48.320 --> 00:33:56.080
of Open Technology Fund, so they helped
Frances to making a protected protected
00:33:56.720 --> 00:34:06.960
disclosure. And she also had lawyers who
represent her. They are from Bryson
00:34:06.960 --> 00:34:13.840
Gillette. That's a consulting firm and law firm
founded 2020 by Bill Burton. He was a former
00:34:13.840 --> 00:34:19.760
spokesman, the deputy spokesman of Obama
and the Bryson Gillette, and that is also
00:34:19.760 --> 00:34:23.360
involved with the Lincoln Project. So they
are clearly from the democratic spectrum.
00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:29.040
And this was also why Facebook could
easily make the claim that it was an
00:34:29.040 --> 00:34:35.360
orchestrated campaign by the Democrats, an
orchestrated political campaign. We think
00:34:35.360 --> 00:34:41.520
that. But let's go on to a more groups
involved with Francis just to wrap it up
00:34:41.520 --> 00:34:47.840
and let us Luminate, which is founded
by Pierre Omidyar the founder of eBay,
00:34:48.560 --> 00:34:53.600
and also Ben Scott been involved there. He's a
senior policy adviser for innovation at
00:34:53.600 --> 00:34:59.280
the U.S. Department of State and Hillary
Clinton and was there, and they are
00:34:59.840 --> 00:35:05.840
cooperating closely on funding. For
example, recent tech operating also in the
00:35:05.840 --> 00:35:11.200
U.S. and Europe. The nonprofit lobbies a
lobbying organization that wants to
00:35:11.200 --> 00:35:16.183
regulate the market for Big Tech. So these
organizations, they come from the
00:35:16.183 --> 00:35:20.636
democratic spectrum. There's no question,
but we see that a rethink and our
00:35:20.636 --> 00:35:28.301
impression was that they were mentioned
matching FH interest. So they
00:35:28.301 --> 00:35:35.327
have kind of the same goal. So they came
they came together in the process.
00:35:35.327 --> 00:35:46.880
Svea: Yeah, really important to see now,
OK, what's next? So we have reported on
00:35:46.880 --> 00:35:55.200
the Facebook Files in Europe, in the U.S.,
but it's pretty exciting to see. Yeah,
00:35:55.200 --> 00:36:00.560
what is happening? Is Facebook changing
something or is there any regulation
00:36:00.560 --> 00:36:06.560
coming? So of course, the future is still
open and not written, but to give you a
00:36:06.560 --> 00:36:12.400
little bit a glimpse what happened after
the 7th of October? So then, yeah, FH
00:36:12.400 --> 00:36:18.400
went on some kind of tour through
Europe? Though she was a London, she was
00:36:18.400 --> 00:36:24.560
at this bar Lisbon, and in November she
went to Berlin, to Brussels and to Paris.
00:36:24.560 --> 00:36:30.160
So why did she do that? Why did she travel
from Puerto Rico to the U.S. and then from
00:36:30.160 --> 00:36:36.720
the U.S. through Europe? I think every
three days another city, it was a tour
00:36:36.720 --> 00:36:42.240
like kind of a rock star or something. Why
did she do this? Yeah, it is. Because,
00:36:42.960 --> 00:36:48.080
yeah, they she clearly has some kind of
agenda. She definitely wants to change.
00:36:48.080 --> 00:36:54.240
And she did not want to throw a lot of
documents in the internet and then hide in
00:36:54.240 --> 00:36:59.200
the castle or somewhere else. She
definitely wanted something. Yeah, she she
00:36:59.200 --> 00:37:07.760
wanted action. So she had big hopes in
Europe because as probably some of you
00:37:07.760 --> 00:37:14.240
know, here that Digital Services Act is
debated. It was debated in the parliament
00:37:14.240 --> 00:37:20.640
and now it's up to the commission. So
hopefully next year, the Digital Services
00:37:20.640 --> 00:37:29.360
Act will be in place. And yeah, she and
also many other groups are hoping for more
00:37:29.360 --> 00:37:35.360
regulations and control regarding
especially content moderation, fiiles and
00:37:35.360 --> 00:37:42.640
also transparency, so that you can see
what is going on on these platforms and in
00:37:42.640 --> 00:37:50.800
the U.S. the hope lies in Congress and in
the SEC . So I think I'm sure they hope
00:37:50.800 --> 00:37:56.320
that the SEC will have a billion or
billion dollar fine on Facebook and also
00:37:56.320 --> 00:38:04.000
probably pushes for more regulation. And
the discussion centers around that news,
00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:10.320
getting more control of that data that
that there's more transparency and
00:38:10.320 --> 00:38:16.800
probably that also there's more taxation,
probably on digital ads just yet to make
00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:23.440
the business model harder. Because I think
also this is only one way to come by is
00:38:23.440 --> 00:38:31.600
yeah, to to do something about the
business model. OK. So yeah, we hope you
00:38:31.600 --> 00:38:36.480
enjoyed our presentation and we yeah, I
want to thank you for listening and also
00:38:36.480 --> 00:38:41.600
big thanks to the team who work for that.
And I hope we have another five to 10
00:38:41.600 --> 00:38:43.600
minutes for some Q&A.
00:38:43.600 --> 00:38:48.800
Herald: Yes, thank you. Yes, we have
indeed another 10 minutes before we have
00:38:48.800 --> 00:38:53.840
to prepare for the next talk. Thank you
very much for this. These 45 minutes of
00:38:53.840 --> 00:39:03.680
content Svea laughs very well,
you are. You are giving the impression
00:39:03.680 --> 00:39:08.800
your presentation gives the impression
that Facebook is basically watching from
00:39:08.800 --> 00:39:16.000
within. It's a question when mutiny within
the Facebook workforce will break out and
00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:22.240
that 85 percent of all the content comes
from payments for the ugly content and not
00:39:23.360 --> 00:39:30.800
for the good one. How true is this? How
how evil is Facebook compared to other
00:39:31.680 --> 00:39:36.560
debated evil doers like Telegram or
others? What do you think?
00:39:40.960 --> 00:39:49.848
Svea: I think that, you know, the Facebook
files and you have like the feeling that
00:39:49.848 --> 00:39:56.292
you are in a submarine as you're diving
into the Marine, you know, and you start
00:39:56.292 --> 00:40:01.578
diving underwater and then you go with the
light bulb, you know, with one light and
00:40:01.578 --> 00:40:07.041
then you shed into the dark and this other
Facebook files and you can't see what
00:40:07.041 --> 00:40:12.536
surrounds this. So we definitely. So I
think it's it's not fair to say like the
00:40:12.536 --> 00:40:17.742
whole company is so also it's only fair to
say that and, what you can see on the
00:40:17.742 --> 00:40:23.400
comments, for example, after the storm of
the Capitol, where many employees were
00:40:23.400 --> 00:40:28.798
speaking. So I think it's not that the
whole company is rotten from within, but
00:40:28.798 --> 00:40:33.760
of course, there are parts which are
rotten. And this, I think, is shown in the
00:40:33.760 --> 00:40:39.446
files. I think it's really hard to compare
Facebook to Telegram or Google or
00:40:39.446 --> 00:40:46.200
something because I think a Facebook or
Meta, as they now called, it's quite a
00:40:46.200 --> 00:40:53.297
very unique player on the market. They
are. Yeah, they bought Instagram. They
00:40:53.297 --> 00:41:00.030
bought WhatsApp. You can't compare
Facebook or Meta to Telegram because this
00:41:00.030 --> 00:41:06.596
is a completely different scale. So yeah,
that's that's I hope I could. It's a
00:41:06.596 --> 00:41:11.713
little bit of a philosophical question, so
I hope my answer is okay laughs.
00:41:11.713 --> 00:41:17.961
Herald: I mean, that's OK. You know...
Lena: I want to add, I think it's true.
00:41:17.961 --> 00:41:24.483
What we have, we are only seeing a glimpse
of, of course, of some of the internal
00:41:24.483 --> 00:41:29.632
discussions. But it gives us an
impression. And I think the impression I
00:41:29.632 --> 00:41:34.680
would see, I would say, is right that
there are a lot of frustration among the
00:41:34.680 --> 00:41:39.128
complaints because what Facebook says on
the outside, we are good. We are
00:41:39.128 --> 00:41:45.781
connecting people. Whatever their slogan
is, it is not. It seems to be not
00:41:45.781 --> 00:41:53.920
confirmed by by many employees. They say
they think just as Frances Haugen of power
00:41:53.920 --> 00:42:01.860
and things that the company putting profit
over safety. And there may be that there
00:42:01.860 --> 00:42:06.200
are probably a lot of employees that are
super happy to work at Facebook and they
00:42:06.200 --> 00:42:10.255
don't see it. And I think that they have
amazing perks that they get at the office.
00:42:10.255 --> 00:42:15.006
You know, they have little kitchen. They
have. I mean, it seems to be a wonderful
00:42:15.006 --> 00:42:19.934
place to work if you care about this
issue. It seems that many, many people who
00:42:19.934 --> 00:42:24.813
really, really care about these issues,
such as hate speech, such as the
00:42:24.813 --> 00:42:30.411
democratic processes such as a foreign
influence on elections, and they seem to
00:42:30.411 --> 00:42:35.586
be very frustrated. So as I said, I expect
more whistleblowers. I expect more leaks
00:42:35.586 --> 00:42:36.616
to come.
Herald: Hmm.
00:42:36.616 --> 00:42:41.149
Lena: And also, it's a structural thing
just to end this and it's a structural
00:42:41.149 --> 00:42:46.240
thing there. When you compare it, for
example, to Twitter, it seems to be that
00:42:46.240 --> 00:42:52.161
Twitter is doing many things much better
than than than Facebook. But as I said,
00:42:52.161 --> 00:42:58.004
you can't really compare. But there is a
discussion within the Facebook players
00:42:58.004 --> 00:43:03.720
about a firewall between those parts of
the company that are enforcing policies,
00:43:03.720 --> 00:43:09.839
internal policies and those parts of the
company who are responsible for that, for
00:43:09.839 --> 00:43:16.328
the numbers and who are selling ads, for
example. And apparently, it's Twitter.
00:43:16.328 --> 00:43:22.400
There's a there's a firewall. And at
Facebook, there's no firewall. So the same
00:43:22.400 --> 00:43:29.073
people who are selling adds are also making
exceptions for political actors on, on or
00:43:29.073 --> 00:43:35.496
on certain behaviors. And that's this is a
structural thing that frustrated many
00:43:35.496 --> 00:43:38.528
people.
Herald: No Chinese wall. I see. I am
00:43:38.528 --> 00:43:44.680
getting signals that we have only three
minutes left. A very short question away,
00:43:44.680 --> 00:43:50.375
short answer from our technical audience.
You talked about the internal platform
00:43:50.375 --> 00:43:55.467
workplace, Facebook's internal knowledge
base. It would, of course, be interesting
00:43:55.467 --> 00:44:01.760
to see how user level access controls,
encription, white's management work on
00:44:01.760 --> 00:44:06.578
this platform is anything in the leaks
about that? No.
00:44:06.578 --> 00:44:12.540
Lena: No. Only research reports only the
vast amount of research reports.
00:44:12.540 --> 00:44:17.876
Herald: Mm hmm. But this vast amounts seem
to be accessible. OK? Somebody is waving,
00:44:17.876 --> 00:44:23.367
Waving us Goodbye. I see. Thank you so
much. Interesting insight. Interesting
00:44:23.367 --> 00:44:29.000
updates, folks. Follow this issue. It's
not over. Things will be coming. Thank
00:44:29.000 --> 00:44:34.440
you, Lena. Thank you, Svea. I wish you
good health through the winter and thank
00:44:34.440 --> 00:44:38.240
you again Svea laughs for your marital
effort to you.
00:44:38.240 --> 00:44:43.440
Svea, Lena: Thank you.
I think you see by everything is licensed
00:44:43.440 --> 00:44:46.711
under CC by 4.0. And it is all for the
community 2.0 and for everybody.
00:44:46.711 --> 00:44:54.384
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