0:00:00.000,0:00:04.505
rc3 2021 preroll now here @c-base
0:00:04.505,0:00:10.800
Herald: The Facebook files last year,[br]Harvard graduated and Facebook employe,
0:00:10.800,0:00:17.840
FH enhanded huge internal[br]Facebook documents to, among others,
0:00:17.840,0:00:25.200
newspapers, journals and in fact, the US[br]Senate said it was there to testify about
0:00:25.200,0:00:35.440
Facebook's conduct. This has gained[br]quite some, quite some attention, but at
0:00:35.440,0:00:40.000
least in Germany not as[br]ambitious as it should have. And I'm
0:00:40.000,0:00:50.320
welcoming today. Lena? And Svea? HalIo! Will[br]be giving us the better insight into
0:00:50.320,0:00:57.000
Facebook files. We believe in having a 30[br]minute talk by the end about it wasn't in
0:00:57.000,0:01:02.880
our Q&A after that. So please do continue[br]with your questions on the various
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channels. They will hopefully miraculously[br]a few of this week to be transferred over
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the air to our mates, who will be giving[br]us many insights. The screen is yours very
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much.[br]Svea: OK. Thank you so much. It's great to
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be here. Sorry, first of all, for my voice[br]because I'm having the Congress flu
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without Congress laughing. No, just[br]just the bad cold, but no COVID. So
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everything is fine. Yeah. Thank you so[br]much for welcoming us today. Before we
0:01:42.560,0:01:50.480
dive into the Facebook files and give you[br]a an exclusive view and inside, let us
0:01:50.480,0:01:54.080
shortly introduce us. So yeah, I do. Lena,[br]you go first.
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Lena: I am Lena. I'm an investigative[br]reporter with the WDR Zeitung in Berlin
0:01:59.840,0:02:04.400
and they mostly work on terror[br]investigations, but also anything complex.
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So I, of course, jumped on the Facebook[br]files as well.
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Svea: Yes. And my name is Svea. I also am[br]an investigative reporter working
0:02:13.920,0:02:20.560
freelance for NDR television, mostly on[br]tech issues. And then Lena and I, we
0:02:21.120,0:02:28.160
worked very closely together for several[br]weeks or months now on the Facebook files.
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We were in the team. We had the contact to[br]FH first and Europe and also
0:02:35.920,0:02:41.760
we had to. We had the chance to look and[br]work very closely with the files, and we
0:02:41.760,0:02:47.040
did a lot of stories on these issues. And[br]so we thought, this would be a great time
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to give some behind the scenes views and[br]to tell you a little bit what's not all
0:02:54.880,0:03:00.880
in all the newspapers, some more details[br]about, FH and also what's in
0:03:00.880,0:03:07.040
the files and what's not in the files and[br]how they should be read or interpreted. So
0:03:07.040,0:03:13.840
this is what this is about, and I will now[br]open the presentation on the screen and
0:03:14.640,0:03:24.000
vanish behind behind it. So yeah, have a[br]great time and Lena will start first. OK,
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let's see. This is who we are you. We just[br]told you. And then let's go, Lena.
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Lena: I consider the presentation,[br]Svea: OK, sorry. Then let's just get to
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make sure that yes, is it? Yes. Sorry. OK,[br]now this should work. Who is FH?
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OK. Lena, you go first.[br]Lena: So who is FH? Most of
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you have seen already, but in the[br]beginning wasn't so clear in September,
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when, in September 2021, the Wall Street[br]Journal started publishing a series of
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articles and podcasts under the name of[br]the Facebook Files. The leaker was still
0:04:07.120,0:04:11.280
anonymous. The reports were riveting[br]because these journalists from the Wall
0:04:11.280,0:04:16.160
Street Journal had were using hundreds and[br]thousands of internal documents from
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Facebook Internal Employee Network, and[br]only after a few weeks it was announced
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that the leaker will cooperate with[br]Congress and the SEC, the Securities and
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Exchange Commission, and reveal their[br]identity and. By then, we were already
0:04:34.400,0:04:40.800
talking to Frances in video call, and she[br]appeared on the screen as a very normal
0:04:40.800,0:04:48.320
woman, our age with headphones and on her[br]couch. And until October, the beginning of
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October, we knew her under a codename. So[br]until she really revealed her identity,
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she was also using a code name with us as[br]journalists. And. Yeah, we learned that
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that she was 37 years old, she was born in[br]Iowa. And both her parents are professors,
0:05:08.160,0:05:13.040
but her mother later became a priest. And[br]Frances went on to study electrical
0:05:13.040,0:05:17.040
computer engineering at a small college[br]named Olin College in Massachusetts,
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and she later became a data engineer and[br]product manager for Google, mainly working
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on Google books. Then she got a job at[br]Yelp and Pinterest. And then in 2018, she
0:05:34.480,0:05:40.800
got offered a job at Facebook. And first[br]she was very hesitant. She told us because
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of Facebook, the reputation for being an[br]engine of medicalization and because of
0:05:45.360,0:05:49.920
the personal experience. Frances, how[br]happened to her friends? And this is a
0:05:49.920,0:05:57.329
clip from our interview last year. video[br]plays Yeah, let's try to do what I want
0:05:57.329,0:06:05.802
to do to what you do. So I came into[br]Facebook. I was asked by Facebook to take
0:06:05.802,0:06:10.176
stock of mobile to give a platform[br]exclusively outage and point system. It
0:06:10.176,0:06:13.922
has the internet become easy to talk to?[br]That is yes. No, Oh my God, this problem
0:06:13.922,0:06:17.440
is still going to feel so much larger than[br]you might otherwise. Video ends
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Lena: So as soon as we heard when she[br]arrived at Facebook, the disenchantment or
0:06:26.080,0:06:34.363
the the problems she saw started[br]immediately because immediately she saw
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that. What she had thought of Facebook as[br]an engine of radicalization was even
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bigger. And with her personal experience,[br]just to explain that in a few years back,
0:06:45.888,0:06:51.879
she got very sick and she had an assistant[br]who later became almost like a brother, a
0:06:51.879,0:07:00.382
very close friend, and she lost him to the[br]rabbit hole. His journey started. Yeah,
0:07:00.382,0:07:07.464
on normal social media sites and that[br]4chan and let him through the of
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conspiracy. And she told her that she was[br]shocked, that she lost him and that he was
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unreachable for facts. At some point, she[br]wasn't able to have a conversation with
0:07:20.014,0:07:24.680
him anymore. So when she got offered the[br]job and was able to do the job and the
0:07:24.680,0:07:30.090
integrity method, the team at Facebook[br]that was formed to protect the US
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elections and working on civic integrity.[br]She really thought that you could make a
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change. But she realized,[br]that the companies, she said, didn't want
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to change, although she really admired her[br]coworkers. He said they were really smart
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and creative people. But she said the[br]leadership didn't want to listen. And so
0:08:03.745,0:08:13.422
in the end, after about two years, she[br]became a whistleblower. And when you talk
0:08:13.422,0:08:20.304
to her today. You can see that it seems[br]like she's the perfect person to do that.
0:08:20.304,0:08:24.917
She seems really at ease with her role,[br]and she's found her role also to be in the
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public and to put a face on the[br]whistleblowing. She says her both
0:08:28.567,0:08:32.440
parents are professors, and it feels very[br]natural to her to sit and explain things
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to people. And that's what she does now as[br]a teenager. She's really touring the world
0:08:37.885,0:08:43.757
to get her message out. And also we learn[br]that she has a photographic memory, a very
0:08:43.757,0:08:48.636
good memory, and that she's financially[br]independent because she invested in crypto
0:08:48.636,0:09:02.432
in the early days. So, yeah, she seems to[br]be. Yeah, yeah. Whistleblower, almost. And
0:09:02.432,0:09:07.366
gone, yeah. But let's go to her motivated[br]way in the end, she wanted to become a
0:09:07.366,0:09:19.280
whistleblower. So these two clips from our[br]interview again, she told us that
0:09:19.920,0:09:26.640
when she was at Facebook: "I was faced. So[br]this is hard. Patients, I was faced with
0:09:26.640,0:09:31.680
information that I believe put many, maybe[br]a million or 10 million lives on the line.
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I sat there and you were staring down at a[br]situation where you believe maybe 10
0:09:37.600,0:09:42.240
million people could die over the next 20[br]years. And I knew that I had the
0:09:42.240,0:09:46.640
information that could potentially face in[br]a fraction of those life. She has to do
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something." And now she says: "It's not about[br]bad people or bad content at Facebook,
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it's about a system. And like either[br]the organization incentives or the
0:09:58.480,0:10:06.160
incentives at Facebook, they are they.[br]They are wrong. They are skewed." And then
0:10:06.160,0:10:11.920
also, she says that she failed to change[br]the system from within, and she realized:
0:10:11.920,0:10:14.880
"This problem was so much larger than even[br]I thought it was. I kept trying and
0:10:14.880,0:10:18.320
trying. At some point, I read the[br]realization that there was enough
0:10:18.320,0:10:23.440
systematic problems that I would have at[br]some point to figure out how to bring the
0:10:23.440,0:10:30.080
information to the public." So she tried[br]actually to make her complaints heard in
0:10:30.080,0:10:35.315
the company, but that she had the the she[br]was under the impression, that the
0:10:35.315,0:10:41.685
leadership didn't want to listen.[br]Svea: Yes. And I think with this things
0:10:41.685,0:10:49.952
you have now learned about FH[br]I think if you know all this things you
0:10:49.952,0:10:56.920
can understand the leak much better and[br]this is what we're going to do now. So we
0:10:56.920,0:11:02.846
will dive into the Files. And if you have[br]all this in mind, so what was her
0:11:02.846,0:11:09.044
motivation, then you will now see and[br]understand better, why some things are in
0:11:09.044,0:11:15.360
the Files and why some things aren't.[br]Because you now know why she did what she
0:11:15.360,0:11:24.389
did and what type of person so roughly she[br]is. So let's go to the revelation timeline
0:11:24.389,0:11:34.040
just just quickly here. In December 2020,[br]she worked into the Civic Integrity Team,
0:11:34.040,0:11:39.722
but this team got dissolved and there was[br]a Wall Street Journal reporter and he saw
0:11:39.722,0:11:46.130
a chance and asked all these, all the[br]people who worked there, and he tried to
0:11:46.130,0:11:50.770
get interviews with them. And he also got[br]the chance to meet FH and
0:11:50.770,0:11:56.648
probably the and the podcast from Wall[br]Street Journal he tells the story that
0:11:56.648,0:12:04.600
they were talking to each other. And yeah,[br]probably this also. Yeah. Get confidence
0:12:04.600,0:12:09.187
that there's somebody she probably could[br]talk to, and we assume that then she
0:12:09.187,0:12:15.109
started collecting the files, but this[br]stays blurry. So maybe she started
0:12:15.109,0:12:20.117
earlier. But this is something not which[br]is not really known and which is not
0:12:20.117,0:12:24.300
really answered clearly. So she's always[br]when we asked her, she was always speaking
0:12:24.300,0:12:30.085
from summer. So summer, summer, maybe this[br]is the summer 21, then the Wall Street
0:12:30.085,0:12:34.865
Journal story just got out. And I think[br]what's also interesting here to see is,
0:12:34.865,0:12:40.335
that you have this time period from[br]December to September. So more than half a
0:12:40.335,0:12:47.165
year from the first contact, from the[br]reporter to the leakage. So I think this
0:12:47.165,0:12:53.408
is quite interesting. And then you have[br]the filing to the S.E.C. and to U.S.
0:12:53.408,0:13:00.211
Congress via whistleblower AID. We will[br]talk about this later, too. And then
0:13:00.211,0:13:08.846
things get rush and then things get IQ[br]each or then the everything gets very
0:13:08.846,0:13:14.014
fast. So there you have the filing, then[br]you have the revealing of the identity.
0:13:14.014,0:13:20.037
And on the 5th of October, she is speaking[br]to Congress and then all the publications
0:13:20.037,0:13:26.845
maybe you all have read or some of them,[br]who you have read went out. So it's pretty
0:13:26.845,0:13:32.628
interesting to see now. Oh yeah. And then[br]we also implemented when we come and
0:13:32.628,0:13:37.755
place, what was in the beginning of[br]October. This is where we broke the first
0:13:37.755,0:13:43.920
story. And then formed the EU consortium. So[br]we thought, maybe what's most what's
0:13:43.920,0:13:48.330
probably most interesting for you here,[br]guys, is not the question what's in the
0:13:48.330,0:13:53.840
files? We'll tell about this later, too,[br]about what? What's not in the files? Maybe
0:13:53.840,0:13:59.616
this is the more interesting question. And[br]so to get the answer to that, it's
0:13:59.616,0:14:05.629
really important to understand the nature[br]of the files where the files come from and
0:14:05.629,0:14:10.249
about what kind of files we are talking[br]when we're speaking about the Facebook
0:14:10.249,0:14:20.859
files. And as Lena already mentioned,[br]FH was a data scientist within
0:14:20.859,0:14:25.427
Facebook. She worked with the Civic[br]Integrity Team and later she worked with
0:14:25.427,0:14:30.994
counter-espionage. So she was regular[br]Facebook employee. She had she hadn't have
0:14:30.994,0:14:36.754
a high rank or something. She wasn't part[br]of the board or she wasn't an executive
0:14:36.754,0:14:44.813
person. So of course, she had limited[br]access to documents. But yeah, luckily for
0:14:44.813,0:14:51.334
her, Facebook maintains a quite[br]transparent approach regarding its own
0:14:51.334,0:14:55.910
research and a lot of other relevant[br]information, probably a lot more
0:14:55.910,0:15:01.206
transparent than other companies. So you,[br]you have and Facebook, you have some kind
0:15:01.206,0:15:07.934
of internal Facebook, which is called a[br]workplace and and workplace. You find a
0:15:07.934,0:15:15.267
vast, vast amount of internal research[br]reports and people are discussing this
0:15:15.267,0:15:22.437
research with each other. And but I must[br]admit so in these research that you have a
0:15:22.437,0:15:27.945
lot of technical terms and you have a lot[br]of teams speaking to each other, the
0:15:27.945,0:15:35.155
researches made for Facebook employees.[br]Of course, it's full of abbreviations or
0:15:35.155,0:15:42.240
yeah, terms you can't or hardly[br]understand as an outsider, so we will get
0:15:42.240,0:15:49.178
into that later. So to give you a glimpse[br]of how is a file, how what did we see when
0:15:49.178,0:15:55.161
we dived into it? So you have these[br]totally unstructured PDF documents with
0:15:55.161,0:16:01.888
more than an estimated 10000 pages? They[br]all photographed. And there you have this
0:16:01.888,0:16:08.270
research and also these discussions and[br]you see here where I did the pink arrows.
0:16:08.270,0:16:13.480
You can see how it looks and it looks a[br]little bit like Facebook. You have groups
0:16:13.480,0:16:18.596
of groups and you have comments, you have[br]smileys and then you have these black
0:16:18.596,0:16:23.991
redactions, which were made later on[br]because all these fires were made for
0:16:23.991,0:16:30.660
Congress. And so all the names were[br]redacted. And this this is pretty
0:16:30.660,0:16:37.870
important to know when you think about[br]what the files don't tell. So what's
0:16:37.870,0:16:45.086
missing? As I told you, that FH, she was [br]part of the executive
0:16:45.086,0:16:52.374
board, so it is not in the files what Mark[br]Zuckerberg or other key executive know. As
0:16:52.374,0:16:58.572
these are not reports directly to Mark[br]Zuckerberg as these are research reports
0:16:58.572,0:17:06.605
for the internal network. So they don't[br]say much about leadership or about
0:17:06.605,0:17:12.729
decisions from leadership or what was[br]discussed by leadership. Sometimes you
0:17:12.729,0:17:18.302
have these postings in the internal[br]Facebook where leadership is discussing
0:17:18.302,0:17:23.734
something, so you get an idea or a glimpse[br]what the board or what high rank execute
0:17:23.734,0:17:29.360
thoughts. But this is basically[br]something what the files are not telling.
0:17:29.360,0:17:36.706
Then the Facebook files don't provide any[br]context. And this is something I've ...
0:17:36.706,0:17:42.889
what also FH thinks, what's yeah,[br]really is the reason why she gave all
0:17:42.889,0:17:49.270
these files to journalists, because she[br]hoped that we could provide context,
0:17:49.270,0:17:56.720
because there are no information on who[br]did the report. So usually the authors
0:17:56.720,0:18:02.392
redacted. So you can't see. Is he a good[br]researcher? Is he long working with his
0:18:02.392,0:18:08.319
book or what? What has he got for an[br]education? So you don't know how reliable
0:18:08.319,0:18:14.360
they are or what happened before the[br]study, or after all? And I think this is
0:18:14.360,0:18:19.994
very important and we especially saw this.[br]I don't know if you remember the reporting
0:18:19.994,0:18:25.956
on the Instagram study and when you read[br]the Instagram study very closely, you see
0:18:25.956,0:18:32.328
that there that they are talking about a[br]dozen people who they have conducted
0:18:32.328,0:18:39.700
interviews, qualitative interviews with.[br]And this is a research which is highly
0:18:39.700,0:18:46.640
qualitative and not quantitative, so it's[br]not representative. And so this is very
0:18:46.640,0:18:53.529
important if you look at the files that[br]you look at the numbers, how many people
0:18:53.529,0:19:01.173
with how many people are study is[br]conducted or with how many accounts or how
0:19:01.173,0:19:07.574
many? Yeah, what what is it really about?[br]And then you also see in the file that
0:19:07.574,0:19:12.369
there are specific areas which are very[br]well represented, like hate speech. I
0:19:12.369,0:19:19.376
think this is an issue, FH worked a lot on[br]it and the civic integrity teams
0:19:19.376,0:19:24.042
at other areas are[br]missing or not represented. So, for
0:19:24.042,0:19:29.333
example, I'm very interested in fake[br]accounts. So this was the first thing I
0:19:29.333,0:19:34.791
did when I was sweating through the files[br]and what is what research is down fake
0:19:34.791,0:19:41.209
accounts. There is some research, of[br]course, but yeah, I was I was saying, I
0:19:41.209,0:19:47.416
was missing content and I thought, Oh,[br]there need to be more or about scam. I
0:19:47.416,0:19:52.097
don't know if you know, love scams,[br]though. I did not find anything about this
0:19:52.097,0:19:56.775
or click farms, then engagement numbers.[br]They are some engagement numbers, but not
0:19:56.775,0:20:03.871
that much. So I I can only speculate about[br]why there are some areas very well
0:20:03.871,0:20:09.834
represented in the files, and some aren't.[br]But I think probably this are different
0:20:09.834,0:20:17.819
reasons. So on the one hand, FH, [br]she had a specific time, limited time to
0:20:17.819,0:20:26.192
get these files and also probably she had[br]limited areas where she could go and read
0:20:26.192,0:20:32.442
these documents. And also, of course,[br]these are internal research. This is
0:20:32.442,0:20:37.395
entirely research. These are internal[br]studies. So there are only studies that
0:20:37.395,0:20:41.948
facebook employes start. [br]This was some kind we definitely should
0:20:41.948,0:20:46.711
investigate, and if there's no if they[br]didn't feel the urge to investigate it, of
0:20:46.711,0:20:52.862
course they can't be a file. So these are[br]some reasons, I think, why some areas are
0:20:52.862,0:21:01.648
missing. OK, so now laugh let's get to[br]the good part. So what's In the files? I
0:21:01.648,0:21:07.534
think some of you probably have read or[br]heard about the Wall Street Journal
0:21:07.534,0:21:13.014
revelations, so we do not want to dive[br]into this because this is broadly known
0:21:13.014,0:21:17.880
about, that celebrities were treated[br]differently, that human trafficking goes
0:21:17.880,0:21:24.914
on on Facebook. I don't know who watched[br]Jan Bömermann. He began talking about this
0:21:24.914,0:21:30.847
on that Instagram was toxic for teens or[br]Mexican drug cartels using Facebook, or
0:21:30.847,0:21:36.007
that Facebook changed the news algorithm[br]and polarization got worse. So this are
0:21:36.007,0:21:42.774
the this is where the first revelations.[br]So let's talk about growth. So this was
0:21:42.774,0:21:47.579
something I was looking into it's, because[br]I'm pretty interested in the whole fake
0:21:47.579,0:21:53.398
accounts area. So I looked into growth and[br]I found it pretty interesting because
0:21:53.398,0:21:59.636
Facebook is always speaking about growth[br]and that they are growing and making more
0:21:59.636,0:22:05.723
and more profits. And of course, this is[br]true. But if you look through the files
0:22:05.723,0:22:11.476
and you can see that young users,[br]especially users under the age of 25, that
0:22:11.476,0:22:17.128
these are the numbers are decreasing. And[br]that's what you can see here pretty
0:22:17.128,0:22:22.720
closely. You have the red line and then[br]you have the blue line. These are
0:22:22.720,0:22:31.910
symbolizing the younger users under 25.[br]And even in COVID times where you have on
0:22:31.910,0:22:39.543
the right corners, you see this spike and[br]all the other age groups, especially, I
0:22:39.543,0:22:44.769
think people above 50 got highly[br]interested in Facebook during COVID. Now
0:22:44.769,0:22:50.240
it's just shocking. So you have every age[br]group is highly is using Facebook more
0:22:51.040,0:22:58.560
during COVID, but not so that people under[br]25. And this is pretty interesting because
0:22:58.560,0:23:05.200
of the filing for the FCC, the[br]Börsenaufsicht and there because what is
0:23:05.200,0:23:10.240
with the advertisers and is Facebook[br]really telling the truth when they always
0:23:10.240,0:23:16.720
talking about growth and profits. Then I[br]think hate speech pretty important. And
0:23:16.720,0:23:22.720
there are a lot of case studies about[br]especially poorer countries or high risk
0:23:22.720,0:23:27.760
countries and that they are the[br]polarization goes on and that Facebook is
0:23:27.760,0:23:36.320
not taking enough measures, especially for[br]sub languages on the far right for Arabic
0:23:36.320,0:23:43.200
countries or Asian countries or African[br]countries. Even worse, where you have
0:23:43.200,0:23:47.520
often a lot of dialects and a lot of[br]languages, and that there are not many
0:23:47.520,0:23:53.840
people doing, for example, content[br]moderation. And one of the probably most
0:23:53.840,0:23:59.600
difficult documents, but I think one of[br]the most interesting ones, this one. So
0:23:59.600,0:24:05.440
sorry, I think you can't read a lot, but I[br]will explain as this report, it's called
0:24:05.440,0:24:12.160
the OpEx report. And it's it's really a[br]long document with a lot of numbers, but I
0:24:12.160,0:24:16.240
liked it very much because there were so[br]many numbers and it was quite an official
0:24:16.240,0:24:23.200
document and not only a study of one[br]researcher did, and in his opex report,
0:24:23.200,0:24:27.760
you can see the missed proportion and[br]spending money to fight misinformation
0:24:27.760,0:24:34.160
between English speaking countries like[br]the U.S. and ArW, this the rest of world.
0:24:34.960,0:24:40.800
So you see here on the document, on the[br]right, you see on the first column you see
0:24:40.800,0:24:46.720
misinformation and then you have these[br]rows and then on the row, the right
0:24:46.720,0:24:53.280
corner, you can see that money or man[br]hours. Is this transferred into man hours
0:24:53.920,0:25:03.200
that 84 percent man hours? Here is the[br]first Quartal quarter of 2020 that 84
0:25:03.200,0:25:11.440
percent was spent for misinformation, and[br]rest of world is 16 percent, which if you
0:25:11.440,0:25:17.360
compare the U.S. to the rest of the world,[br]you can see definitely see where the
0:25:17.360,0:25:23.360
focus, where Facebook focus lies. And this[br]of this also was one document FH
0:25:23.360,0:25:28.080
pointed us through and said, You[br]have to check the numbers and then you can
0:25:28.080,0:25:34.800
see what I mean when I say they are, yeah,[br]profit and growth is more important for
0:25:34.800,0:25:43.600
Facebook than human lives. I hope this[br]very yeah, this document makes this clear.
0:25:44.400,0:25:50.160
OK, yeah. What does Facebook say? Facebook[br]says, No. We're doing a lot of course and
0:25:50.160,0:25:56.080
everything and the people using Facebook.[br]This is really important to us. OK, and
0:25:56.080,0:26:03.120
now for the last part, I give, yeah, Lena[br]will tell you something more about the
0:26:03.120,0:26:09.040
fight within. Lena: Yeah, thank you very[br]much. So what is really interesting to us
0:26:09.040,0:26:14.560
is to see the discussion in the work[br]culture and the discussions among among
0:26:14.560,0:26:19.760
teams and among employees. And you could[br]see that in the chat, that was going on,
0:26:19.760,0:26:27.360
especially under some of the studies. And[br]it was kind of confirming our impression
0:26:27.360,0:26:32.960
that Facebook, that there was a lot of[br]debate, internal debate and that there was
0:26:32.960,0:26:38.320
a lot of frustration among employees[br]because as we have counted, there were at
0:26:38.320,0:26:45.440
least 11 major leaks since 2016. Most of[br]them remained anonymous. But there were
0:26:45.440,0:26:52.400
also some that happened that went public.[br]For example, Sophie Zangh went public
0:26:52.400,0:27:01.520
in April 2000 and 2021, and there was just[br]a few months before FH came
0:27:01.520,0:27:09.680
out and became public and made that made[br]it public that she had leaked documents.
0:27:09.680,0:27:14.800
Zangh has not leaked any documents that[br]she had talked to reporters. And and and
0:27:14.800,0:27:23.600
she hurt her when she entered her[br]employment with Facebook. And she said she
0:27:23.600,0:27:28.160
posted a batch post this kind of part of[br]the internal exchanges, and we found many
0:27:28.160,0:27:34.950
of these batch posts. And she posted, I found[br]multiple blatant attempts by foreign
0:27:34.950,0:27:39.280
national governments to abuse our platform[br]and that failed to mislead their own
0:27:39.280,0:27:45.280
citizenry and cost international news on[br]multiple occasions. And she was just as
0:27:45.280,0:27:53.360
FH, she was concerned with [br]Facebook lack of content moderation and
0:27:53.360,0:27:59.760
lack of enforcement of community standards[br]outside of the U.S.. And so this just to
0:27:59.760,0:28:08.320
show you that in term of debate was very,[br]very public internally. So I mean, we
0:28:08.320,0:28:18.880
found another batch code. It was called[br]leaving Q&A. This was from May 2000 at
0:28:19.920,0:28:31.280
from May 2021, and there this person was[br]concerned about hate speech and this
0:28:31.280,0:28:35.520
person said she couldn't take it anymore[br]just to be an on Facebook employee because
0:28:35.520,0:28:39.840
she says with so many internal forces propping [br]up the production of hateful and violent
0:28:39.840,0:28:45.840
content. The task of stopping hate and[br]violence on Facebook starts to feel even
0:28:45.840,0:28:50.560
more sisyphean than it already is and[br]shaming internal forces, meaning the
0:28:50.560,0:28:58.240
leadership and this is something that I,[br]this person says, so many internal
0:28:58.240,0:29:03.440
forces and the leadership. This is[br]something that FH was also
0:29:03.440,0:29:10.000
really concerned about that. On the one[br]hand, there are people working on
0:29:10.000,0:29:15.440
combating hate speech and changing the[br]algorithms to make it more a better and
0:29:16.480,0:29:21.680
safer environment. And then, on the other[br]hand, that there are some forces in that
0:29:21.680,0:29:30.000
in the company that apparently work[br]against these efforts. And this fight that
0:29:30.000,0:29:35.520
we could see, could you go back, and[br]this fight that we could see was
0:29:35.520,0:29:50.080
especially viral after January six, after[br]the storm of the Capitol and their
0:29:50.080,0:29:55.680
employees were very much discussing and[br]they were very they were furious. And one
0:29:55.680,0:30:00.480
one person has said, we've been fueling[br]this fire for a long time and we shouldn't
0:30:00.480,0:30:05.200
be surprised. It's now out of control. So[br]employers are giving Facebook
0:30:05.760,0:30:12.400
responsibility for the development. And[br]another person said, employers employees
0:30:13.280,0:30:17.280
should say employees are tired of thoughts[br]and prayers from leadership. We want
0:30:17.280,0:30:22.480
action. And another person said so many[br]research backed ideas get shut down. We
0:30:22.480,0:30:26.800
need to do a better job at making[br]decisions from a research perspective, and
0:30:26.800,0:30:32.560
this is something that's also very close[br]to FH. She said in our
0:30:32.560,0:30:40.376
interview, she says there are solutions[br]that are there are wonderful employers and
0:30:40.376,0:30:45.679
wonderful teams, who are working to come[br]up with solutions. But they are they are
0:30:45.679,0:30:52.897
blocked by leadership out of a for profit[br]interests. And this here's a screenshot of
0:30:52.897,0:30:59.305
another person saying I'm struggling to[br]match my values to my employment here. I
0:30:59.305,0:31:04.737
came here hoping to effect change and[br]improve society, but I've seen it atrophy
0:31:04.737,0:31:10.033
and abdication of responsibility. I'm[br]tired of platitudes. I want action items.
0:31:10.033,0:31:16.755
We are not a neutral entity, so employee[br]seems to be extremely critical of
0:31:16.755,0:31:32.230
Facebook. Yeah. And so as a general take[br]away, you could say that we expect to see
0:31:32.230,0:31:37.760
more leaks from Facebook. We expect to see[br]more whistleblowers coming out of this
0:31:37.760,0:31:42.307
work culture because people seem to be[br]extremely frustrated. And this is also
0:31:42.307,0:31:46.696
just to wrap it up. This is Facebook[br]reaction to the Facebook files and the
0:31:46.696,0:31:53.169
revelation that came out after October 4th[br]after after FH went public at Mark
0:31:53.169,0:31:59.820
Zuckerberg said this week. And in a[br]message to his employees, he said: "We care
0:31:59.820,0:32:05.047
deeply about issues like safety, well-[br]being and mental health and the coverage
0:32:05.047,0:32:13.160
that misrepresents our work and our[br]motive." And Facebook Communications VP
0:32:13.160,0:32:22.045
John Pernetti said. Even that it was an[br]orchestrated campaign against Facebook and
0:32:22.045,0:32:27.594
in response to our reporting, he said: "We[br]welcome scrutiny and feedback that these
0:32:27.594,0:32:32.021
documents are being used to paint a[br]narrative that we hide or that that that
0:32:32.021,0:32:36.655
was terrible, that we hide or cherry[br]picked data when in fact we do the
0:32:36.655,0:32:43.199
opposite." So they are they they are kind[br]of blankly refusing FH
0:32:43.199,0:32:52.800
accusations. But earn a T. What what's[br]happened to FH during this
0:32:52.800,0:33:00.160
process? I think he was talking to a[br]reporter early on and she was on her own.
0:33:01.760,0:33:08.080
But when when she started and when when[br]the when the revelations started in The
0:33:08.080,0:33:17.920
Wall Street Journal, apparently we don't[br]know. And I am sorry, I'm hearing the
0:33:17.920,0:33:24.160
sound from the c-base, and that's why I[br]was a bit confused. But in the process of
0:33:24.160,0:33:29.920
leaking documents, she got in contact with[br]the whistleblower aid, which was founded
0:33:29.920,0:33:39.200
by a former whistleblower, John Tye, and[br]which is a nonprofit organization claiming
0:33:39.200,0:33:42.560
that no one should have to risk their[br]career or their freedom to follow their
0:33:42.560,0:33:48.320
conscience. And some of you may know the[br]executive director Libby knew a former CEO
0:33:48.320,0:33:56.080
of Open Technology Fund, so they helped[br]Frances to making a protected protected
0:33:56.720,0:34:06.960
disclosure. And she also had lawyers who[br]represent her. They are from Bryson
0:34:06.960,0:34:13.840
Gillette. That's a consulting firm and law firm [br]founded 2020 by Bill Burton. He was a former
0:34:13.840,0:34:19.760
spokesman, the deputy spokesman of Obama[br]and the Bryson Gillette, and that is also
0:34:19.760,0:34:23.360
involved with the Lincoln Project. So they[br]are clearly from the democratic spectrum.
0:34:24.960,0:34:29.040
And this was also why Facebook could[br]easily make the claim that it was an
0:34:29.040,0:34:35.360
orchestrated campaign by the Democrats, an[br]orchestrated political campaign. We think
0:34:35.360,0:34:41.520
that. But let's go on to a more groups[br]involved with Francis just to wrap it up
0:34:41.520,0:34:47.840
and let us Luminate, which is founded [br]by Pierre Omidyar the founder of eBay,
0:34:48.560,0:34:53.600
and also Ben Scott been involved there. He's a[br]senior policy adviser for innovation at
0:34:53.600,0:34:59.280
the U.S. Department of State and Hillary[br]Clinton and was there, and they are
0:34:59.840,0:35:05.840
cooperating closely on funding. For[br]example, recent tech operating also in the
0:35:05.840,0:35:11.200
U.S. and Europe. The nonprofit lobbies a[br]lobbying organization that wants to
0:35:11.200,0:35:16.183
regulate the market for Big Tech. So these[br]organizations, they come from the
0:35:16.183,0:35:20.636
democratic spectrum. There's no question,[br]but we see that a rethink and our
0:35:20.636,0:35:28.301
impression was that they were mentioned[br]matching FH interest. So they
0:35:28.301,0:35:35.327
have kind of the same goal. So they came[br]they came together in the process.
0:35:35.327,0:35:46.880
Svea: Yeah, really important to see now,[br]OK, what's next? So we have reported on
0:35:46.880,0:35:55.200
the Facebook Files in Europe, in the U.S.,[br]but it's pretty exciting to see. Yeah,
0:35:55.200,0:36:00.560
what is happening? Is Facebook changing[br]something or is there any regulation
0:36:00.560,0:36:06.560
coming? So of course, the future is still[br]open and not written, but to give you a
0:36:06.560,0:36:12.400
little bit a glimpse what happened after[br]the 7th of October? So then, yeah, FH
0:36:12.400,0:36:18.400
went on some kind of tour through[br]Europe? Though she was a London, she was
0:36:18.400,0:36:24.560
at this bar Lisbon, and in November she[br]went to Berlin, to Brussels and to Paris.
0:36:24.560,0:36:30.160
So why did she do that? Why did she travel[br]from Puerto Rico to the U.S. and then from
0:36:30.160,0:36:36.720
the U.S. through Europe? I think every[br]three days another city, it was a tour
0:36:36.720,0:36:42.240
like kind of a rock star or something. Why[br]did she do this? Yeah, it is. Because,
0:36:42.960,0:36:48.080
yeah, they she clearly has some kind of[br]agenda. She definitely wants to change.
0:36:48.080,0:36:54.240
And she did not want to throw a lot of[br]documents in the internet and then hide in
0:36:54.240,0:36:59.200
the castle or somewhere else. She[br]definitely wanted something. Yeah, she she
0:36:59.200,0:37:07.760
wanted action. So she had big hopes in[br]Europe because as probably some of you
0:37:07.760,0:37:14.240
know, here that Digital Services Act is[br]debated. It was debated in the parliament
0:37:14.240,0:37:20.640
and now it's up to the commission. So[br]hopefully next year, the Digital Services
0:37:20.640,0:37:29.360
Act will be in place. And yeah, she and[br]also many other groups are hoping for more
0:37:29.360,0:37:35.360
regulations and control regarding[br]especially content moderation, fiiles and
0:37:35.360,0:37:42.640
also transparency, so that you can see[br]what is going on on these platforms and in
0:37:42.640,0:37:50.800
the U.S. the hope lies in Congress and in[br]the SEC . So I think I'm sure they hope
0:37:50.800,0:37:56.320
that the SEC will have a billion or[br]billion dollar fine on Facebook and also
0:37:56.320,0:38:04.000
probably pushes for more regulation. And[br]the discussion centers around that news,
0:38:04.000,0:38:10.320
getting more control of that data that[br]that there's more transparency and
0:38:10.320,0:38:16.800
probably that also there's more taxation,[br]probably on digital ads just yet to make
0:38:16.800,0:38:23.440
the business model harder. Because I think[br]also this is only one way to come by is
0:38:23.440,0:38:31.600
yeah, to to do something about the[br]business model. OK. So yeah, we hope you
0:38:31.600,0:38:36.480
enjoyed our presentation and we yeah, I[br]want to thank you for listening and also
0:38:36.480,0:38:41.600
big thanks to the team who work for that.[br]And I hope we have another five to 10
0:38:41.600,0:38:43.600
minutes for some Q&A.
0:38:43.600,0:38:48.800
Herald: Yes, thank you. Yes, we have[br]indeed another 10 minutes before we have
0:38:48.800,0:38:53.840
to prepare for the next talk. Thank you[br]very much for this. These 45 minutes of
0:38:53.840,0:39:03.680
content Svea laughs very well,[br]you are. You are giving the impression
0:39:03.680,0:39:08.800
your presentation gives the impression[br]that Facebook is basically watching from
0:39:08.800,0:39:16.000
within. It's a question when mutiny within[br]the Facebook workforce will break out and
0:39:16.000,0:39:22.240
that 85 percent of all the content comes[br]from payments for the ugly content and not
0:39:23.360,0:39:30.800
for the good one. How true is this? How[br]how evil is Facebook compared to other
0:39:31.680,0:39:36.560
debated evil doers like Telegram or[br]others? What do you think?
0:39:40.960,0:39:49.848
Svea: I think that, you know, the Facebook[br]files and you have like the feeling that
0:39:49.848,0:39:56.292
you are in a submarine as you're diving[br]into the Marine, you know, and you start
0:39:56.292,0:40:01.578
diving underwater and then you go with the[br]light bulb, you know, with one light and
0:40:01.578,0:40:07.041
then you shed into the dark and this other[br]Facebook files and you can't see what
0:40:07.041,0:40:12.536
surrounds this. So we definitely. So I[br]think it's it's not fair to say like the
0:40:12.536,0:40:17.742
whole company is so also it's only fair to[br]say that and, what you can see on the
0:40:17.742,0:40:23.400
comments, for example, after the storm of[br]the Capitol, where many employees were
0:40:23.400,0:40:28.798
speaking. So I think it's not that the[br]whole company is rotten from within, but
0:40:28.798,0:40:33.760
of course, there are parts which are[br]rotten. And this, I think, is shown in the
0:40:33.760,0:40:39.446
files. I think it's really hard to compare[br]Facebook to Telegram or Google or
0:40:39.446,0:40:46.200
something because I think a Facebook or[br]Meta, as they now called, it's quite a
0:40:46.200,0:40:53.297
very unique player on the market. They[br]are. Yeah, they bought Instagram. They
0:40:53.297,0:41:00.030
bought WhatsApp. You can't compare[br]Facebook or Meta to Telegram because this
0:41:00.030,0:41:06.596
is a completely different scale. So yeah,[br]that's that's I hope I could. It's a
0:41:06.596,0:41:11.713
little bit of a philosophical question, so[br]I hope my answer is okay laughs.
0:41:11.713,0:41:17.961
Herald: I mean, that's OK. You know...[br]Lena: I want to add, I think it's true.
0:41:17.961,0:41:24.483
What we have, we are only seeing a glimpse[br]of, of course, of some of the internal
0:41:24.483,0:41:29.632
discussions. But it gives us an[br]impression. And I think the impression I
0:41:29.632,0:41:34.680
would see, I would say, is right that[br]there are a lot of frustration among the
0:41:34.680,0:41:39.128
complaints because what Facebook says on[br]the outside, we are good. We are
0:41:39.128,0:41:45.781
connecting people. Whatever their slogan[br]is, it is not. It seems to be not
0:41:45.781,0:41:53.920
confirmed by by many employees. They say[br]they think just as Frances Haugen of power
0:41:53.920,0:42:01.860
and things that the company putting profit[br]over safety. And there may be that there
0:42:01.860,0:42:06.200
are probably a lot of employees that are[br]super happy to work at Facebook and they
0:42:06.200,0:42:10.255
don't see it. And I think that they have[br]amazing perks that they get at the office.
0:42:10.255,0:42:15.006
You know, they have little kitchen. They[br]have. I mean, it seems to be a wonderful
0:42:15.006,0:42:19.934
place to work if you care about this[br]issue. It seems that many, many people who
0:42:19.934,0:42:24.813
really, really care about these issues,[br]such as hate speech, such as the
0:42:24.813,0:42:30.411
democratic processes such as a foreign[br]influence on elections, and they seem to
0:42:30.411,0:42:35.586
be very frustrated. So as I said, I expect[br]more whistleblowers. I expect more leaks
0:42:35.586,0:42:36.616
to come.[br]Herald: Hmm.
0:42:36.616,0:42:41.149
Lena: And also, it's a structural thing[br]just to end this and it's a structural
0:42:41.149,0:42:46.240
thing there. When you compare it, for[br]example, to Twitter, it seems to be that
0:42:46.240,0:42:52.161
Twitter is doing many things much better[br]than than than Facebook. But as I said,
0:42:52.161,0:42:58.004
you can't really compare. But there is a[br]discussion within the Facebook players
0:42:58.004,0:43:03.720
about a firewall between those parts of[br]the company that are enforcing policies,
0:43:03.720,0:43:09.839
internal policies and those parts of the[br]company who are responsible for that, for
0:43:09.839,0:43:16.328
the numbers and who are selling ads, for[br]example. And apparently, it's Twitter.
0:43:16.328,0:43:22.400
There's a there's a firewall. And at[br]Facebook, there's no firewall. So the same
0:43:22.400,0:43:29.073
people who are selling adds are also making[br]exceptions for political actors on, on or
0:43:29.073,0:43:35.496
on certain behaviors. And that's this is a[br]structural thing that frustrated many
0:43:35.496,0:43:38.528
people.[br]Herald: No Chinese wall. I see. I am
0:43:38.528,0:43:44.680
getting signals that we have only three[br]minutes left. A very short question away,
0:43:44.680,0:43:50.375
short answer from our technical audience.[br]You talked about the internal platform
0:43:50.375,0:43:55.467
workplace, Facebook's internal knowledge[br]base. It would, of course, be interesting
0:43:55.467,0:44:01.760
to see how user level access controls,[br]encription, white's management work on
0:44:01.760,0:44:06.578
this platform is anything in the leaks[br]about that? No.
0:44:06.578,0:44:12.540
Lena: No. Only research reports only the[br]vast amount of research reports.
0:44:12.540,0:44:17.876
Herald: Mm hmm. But this vast amounts seem[br]to be accessible. OK? Somebody is waving,
0:44:17.876,0:44:23.367
Waving us Goodbye. I see. Thank you so[br]much. Interesting insight. Interesting
0:44:23.367,0:44:29.000
updates, folks. Follow this issue. It's[br]not over. Things will be coming. Thank
0:44:29.000,0:44:34.440
you, Lena. Thank you, Svea. I wish you[br]good health through the winter and thank
0:44:34.440,0:44:38.240
you again Svea laughs for your marital[br]effort to you.
0:44:38.240,0:44:43.440
Svea, Lena: Thank you.[br]I think you see by everything is licensed
0:44:43.440,0:44:46.711
under CC by 4.0. And it is all for the[br]community 2.0 and for everybody.
0:44:46.711,0:44:54.384
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