[Script Info]
Title: 
[Events]
Format: Layer, Start, End, Style, Name, MarginL, MarginR, MarginV, Effect, Text
Dialogue: 0,0:00:00.00,0:00:12.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}rC3 preroll music{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:00:12.74,0:00:16.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Cory Doctorow: Oh, I just got...\NJinxx5: Please, I just wanted to say Hi
Dialogue: 0,0:00:16.86,0:00:23.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Chris...no...Bye Chris and Hi Cory\N{\i1}laughs{\i0} We just had a little chat before
Dialogue: 0,0:00:23.94,0:00:32.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and, as I know, you will be reading\Nfrom your new book in a minute, as I just
Dialogue: 0,0:00:32.04,0:00:38.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,stop talking and afterwards, there will be\Nlots of time for all your questions. And
Dialogue: 0,0:00:38.72,0:00:43.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we're really curious already.\NC D: Great, Yeah. And I do have these
Dialogue: 0,0:00:43.91,0:00:47.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,questions from the talk earlier and I'm\Ngoing to try and get to those too. I'm
Dialogue: 0,0:00:47.43,0:00:52.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,going to do a shorter reading, so we can do\Nmore interactive stuff. You can watch
Dialogue: 0,0:00:52.54,0:00:57.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,videos of me on YouTube if you want to.\NIt's more fun to interact. So the passage
Dialogue: 0,0:00:57.65,0:01:01.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm going to read comes from Attack\NSurface. Attack Surface is a standalone
Dialogue: 0,0:01:01.45,0:01:07.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Little Brother novel. And it's intended\Nfor adults. And it stars Masha who's a
Dialogue: 0,0:01:07.22,0:01:09.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,young woman, who is at the beginning and\Nthe end of the other two books working as
Dialogue: 0,0:01:09.92,0:01:14.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a surveillance contractor. And by this\Nthird book, she's like a full-on cyber
Dialogue: 0,0:01:14.00,0:01:18.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,mercenary working for a company a lot\Nlike, say, the NSO Group or Hacking Team.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:18.61,0:01:23.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Any other kind of hack for hire\Ncompanies helping post-Soviet dictators
Dialogue: 0,0:01:23.07,0:01:29.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,crush rebellions. And the way that she\Ngoes to sleep at night and still manages
Dialogue: 0,0:01:29.70,0:01:33.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to, like, square up her conscience is by\Nhelping the people, that she spies on. So
Dialogue: 0,0:01:33.67,0:01:37.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,during the day, she installs surveillance\Nappliances in the national data centers.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:37.52,0:01:40.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And at night, she meets with the\Nprotesters who are being spied on using
Dialogue: 0,0:01:40.92,0:01:45.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this technology and tells them what\Ncountermeasures work for it. And so, this
Dialogue: 0,0:01:45.32,0:01:49.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is very early in the novel. And Masha and\NKriztina - who's one of these local
Dialogue: 0,0:01:49.99,0:01:56.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,protesters - are walking through the\Nsquare and the fictional, post-Soviet
Dialogue: 0,0:01:56.49,0:02:02.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Republic of Slovstakia during the\Nbeginnings of a protest that is shaping up
Dialogue: 0,0:02:02.00,0:02:04.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to be a very serious one.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:04.22,0:02:07.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}starts reading from book{\i0}\NThe square buzzed with good energy. There was a line
Dialogue: 0,0:02:07.55,0:02:10.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of grannies who brought out pots and\Nwooden spoons and were whanging away at
Dialogue: 0,0:02:10.93,0:02:15.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,them, chanting something in Boris that\Nmade everyone understand. Kriztina tried
Dialogue: 0,0:02:15.16,0:02:18.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to translate it, but it was all tangled up\Nwith some Baba-Yaga story that every
Dialogue: 0,0:02:18.52,0:02:22.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Slovstakian learned with their mother's\Nborscht recipes. We stopped at a barrel
Dialogue: 0,0:02:22.83,0:02:27.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,fire and distributed the last couple of\Nkebabs to the people there. A girl
Dialogue: 0,0:02:27.86,0:02:31.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'd seen around, emerged from the crowd\Nand stole Kriztina away to hold a muttered
Dialogue: 0,0:02:31.84,0:02:36.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,conference that I followed by watching the\Nbody language out of the corner of my eye.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:36.12,0:02:39.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I decided that some of Kriztina's contacts\Nhad someone on the inside of the neo-Nazi
Dialogue: 0,0:02:39.94,0:02:44.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,camp. And judging from her reaction, the\Nnews was very bad. What? I asked. She
Dialogue: 0,0:02:44.87,0:02:50.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,shook her head. What? 10 p.m., she said,\Nthey charge. Supposedly some of the cops
Dialogue: 0,0:02:50.97,0:02:55.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,will go over to their side. There's been\Nmoney changing hands. That was one of the
Dialogue: 0,0:02:55.71,0:03:00.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,problems with putting your cops on half\Npay. Someone might pay the other half. The
Dialogue: 0,0:03:00.57,0:03:05.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Slovstakian police had developed a keen\Ninstinct for staying one jump ahead of
Dialogue: 0,0:03:05.54,0:03:10.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,purges and turnovers. The ones that didn't\Ndevelop that instinct ended up in their
Dialogue: 0,0:03:10.19,0:03:16.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,own cells or dead at their own colleagues'\Nhands. How many? Borises are world class
Dialogue: 0,0:03:16.79,0:03:20.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,shruggers, even adorable Pixie's like\NKriztina. If the English have 200
Dialogue: 0,0:03:20.84,0:03:25.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,words for passive aggressive and the Inuit\Nhave 200 words for snow, then
Dialogue: 0,0:03:25.19,0:03:29.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Borises can convey 200 gradations\Nof emotions with their shoulders. And I
Dialogue: 0,0:03:29.10,0:03:36.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,read this one as: Some, enough, too many.\NWe are fucked. No murders, Kriztina. If
Dialogue: 0,0:03:36.49,0:03:40.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's that bad we can come back another\Nnight. If it's that bad, there might not
Dialogue: 0,0:03:40.55,0:03:47.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,be another night. Oh that fatalism. Fine,\NI said, then we do something about it.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:47.58,0:03:52.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Like what? Like you got me a place to sit\Nand keep everyone else away from me for an
Dialogue: 0,0:03:52.20,0:03:56.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,hour. The crash barricades around the\Nsquare had been long colonized by tarps
Dialogue: 0,0:03:56.73,0:04:00.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and turned into shelters where protesters\Ncould get away from the lines when they
Dialogue: 0,0:04:00.35,0:04:05.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,needed a break. Kriztina returned after a\Nfew minutes to lead me to an empty corner
Dialogue: 0,0:04:05.00,0:04:09.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the warren. It smelled of B.O. and\Ncabbage farts, but it was in the lee of
Dialogue: 0,0:04:09.45,0:04:13.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the wind and private enough. Doubling my\Nlong coats tails under my butt for
Dialogue: 0,0:04:13.68,0:04:19.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,insulation, I sat down cross-legged and\Ntethered my laptop. A few minutes later, I
Dialogue: 0,0:04:19.64,0:04:23.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was staring at Commander Litvinchuk's\Nemail spool. I had a remote desktop on his
Dialogue: 0,0:04:23.87,0:04:27.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,computer and could have used his own\Nwebmail interface, but it was faster to
Dialogue: 0,0:04:27.42,0:04:32.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,just slither into the mail server itself.\NThankfully, one of his first edicts after
Dialogue: 0,0:04:32.33,0:04:36.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,taking over the ministry had been to\Nmigrate everyone off Gmail - which was
Dialogue: 0,0:04:36.19,0:04:40.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,secured by 24/7 ninja hackers who'd eat me\Nfor breakfast - and on to a hosted mail
Dialogue: 0,0:04:40.92,0:04:45.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,server in the same datacenter that I had\Nspent 16 hours in, which was secured by
Dialogue: 0,0:04:45.12,0:04:50.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,wishful thinking, bubble gum, and spit.\NThat meant that if the US State Department
Dialogue: 0,0:04:50.08,0:04:53.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,wanted to pwn the Slovstakian government,\Nit would have to engage in a trivial hack
Dialogue: 0,0:04:53.84,0:04:59.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,against that machine, rather than facing\NGoogle's notoriously vicious lawyers. The
Dialogue: 0,0:04:59.51,0:05:04.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,guiding light of Boris politics was: Trust\Nno one. Which meant, they had to do it all
Dialogue: 0,0:05:04.08,0:05:09.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for themselves. Litvinchuk's cell-site\Nsimulators all fed into a big analytics
Dialogue: 0,0:05:09.53,0:05:13.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,system, that maps social graphs and\Ncompiled dossiers. He demanded, that the
Dialogue: 0,0:05:13.87,0:05:17.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,chiefs of police and military gather the\Nidentifiers of all their personnels, so they
Dialogue: 0,0:05:17.74,0:05:22.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,could be white-listed in the system. It\Nwouldn't do to have every riot cop placed
Dialogue: 0,0:05:22.18,0:05:27.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,under suspicion, because they were present\Nat every riot. The file was in a saved
Dialogue: 0,0:05:27.12,0:05:31.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,email. I tabbed over to a different\Ninterface, tunneled into the Xoth
Dialogue: 0,0:05:31.94,0:05:36.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,appliance. It quickly digested the file\Nand spat out all the SMS messages sent to
Dialogue: 0,0:05:36.07,0:05:41.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or from any cops since I switched it on. I\Ncalled Kriztina over. She hunkered down
Dialogue: 0,0:05:41.48,0:05:46.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,next to me, passed me a thermos of coffee\Nshe'd acquired somewhere. It was terrible
Dialogue: 0,0:05:46.25,0:05:51.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and it reminded me of Marcus. Marcus and\Nhis precious coffee. He wouldn't last 10
Dialogue: 0,0:05:51.08,0:05:54.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,minutes in a real radical uprising,\Nbecause he wouldn't be able to find
Dialogue: 0,0:05:54.26,0:05:58.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,artisanal coffee roasters in the melee.\NKriztina, help me search these texts for -
Dialogue: 0,0:05:58.88,0:06:05.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,... - help me search these for texts about\Nletting the Nazis get past the lines. She
Dialogue: 0,0:06:05.47,0:06:10.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,looked at my screen, the long scrolling\Nlist of texts from cops' phones. What is
Dialogue: 0,0:06:10.64,0:06:15.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that? It's what it looks like. Every\Nmessage sent to or from a cop's phone in
Dialogue: 0,0:06:15.04,0:06:20.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the last ten hours or so. I can't read it,\Nthough, which is why I need your help. She
Dialogue: 0,0:06:20.17,0:06:24.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,boggled, all cheekbones and tilted eyes\Nand sensuous lips. Then she started
Dialogue: 0,0:06:24.61,0:06:29.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,mousing the scroll up and down to read\Nthrough them. Holy shit, she said in
Dialogue: 0,0:06:29.08,0:06:33.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Slovstakian, which was one of the few\Nphrases I knew. Then, to her credit, she
Dialogue: 0,0:06:33.45,0:06:37.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,seemed to get past her surprise and dug\Ninto the messages themselves. How do I
Dialogue: 0,0:06:37.77,0:06:42.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,search? Here. I opened the search dialog.\NLet me know if you need help with
Dialogue: 0,0:06:42.82,0:06:47.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,wildcards. Kriztina wasn't a hacker, but I\Ntaught her a little regular expression-foo,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:47.36,0:06:51.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to help her with an earlier project. Regex\Nare one of the secret weapons of
Dialogue: 0,0:06:51.63,0:06:55.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,hackerdom. Compact search strings that\Npass through huge files for incredibly
Dialogue: 0,0:06:55.42,0:07:01.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,specific patterns. If you didn't fuck them\Nup, which most people did. She tried a few
Dialogue: 0,0:07:01.03,0:07:05.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,tentative searches. Am I looking for\Nnames, passwords? Something that would
Dialogue: 0,0:07:05.64,0:07:09.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,freak out the interior ministry. We're\Ngoing to forward a bunch of these. She
Dialogue: 0,0:07:09.88,0:07:15.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,stopped and stared at me, all eyelashes.\NIt's a joke? It won't look like it came
Dialogue: 0,0:07:15.22,0:07:19.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from us. It'll look like it came from a\Nsource inside the ministry. She stared
Dialogue: 0,0:07:19.29,0:07:24.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,some more of the hamsters running around\Non their wheels, behind her eyes. Masha,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:24.17,0:07:29.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,how do you do this? We had a deal. I'd\Nhelp you and you wouldn't ask me
Dialogue: 0,0:07:29.16,0:07:32.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,questions. I'd struck that deal with her\Nafter our first night on the barricades
Dialogue: 0,0:07:32.38,0:07:36.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,together, when I showed her how to flash\Nher phone with Paranoid Android. And we
Dialogue: 0,0:07:36.53,0:07:40.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,watched the stingrays bounce off of it as\Nshe moved around the square. She knew I
Dialogue: 0,0:07:40.78,0:07:44.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,did something for an American security\Ncontractor and had googled my connection
Dialogue: 0,0:07:44.69,0:07:48.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with "M1k3y", whom she worshiped\Nnaturally. I'd read the messages she'd
Dialogue: 0,0:07:48.91,0:07:52.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sent to her cell's chat channel sticking\Nup for me as a trusty sidekick..
Dialogue: 0,0:07:52.73,0:07:57.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,trustworthy sidekick to their Americanski-\NHero. A couple of the others had wisely
Dialogue: 0,0:07:57.26,0:08:02.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and almost correctly assumed, that I was a\Npolice informant. It looked like maybe she
Dialogue: 0,0:08:02.16,0:08:07.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was regretting not listening to them. I\Nwaited. Talking first would surrender the
Dialogue: 0,0:08:07.13,0:08:13.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,initiative, make me look weak. If we can't\Ntrust you, we're already dead, she said,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:13.27,0:08:19.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,finally. That's true. Luckily, you can\Ntrust me. Search. We worked through some
Dialogue: 0,0:08:19.03,0:08:22.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,queries together and I showed her how to\Nuse wildcards to expand her searches
Dialogue: 0,0:08:22.47,0:08:26.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,without having them spill over the whole\Nmountain of short messages. It would have
Dialogue: 0,0:08:26.22,0:08:29.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,gone faster if I could have read the\NCyrillic characters, but I had to rely on
Dialogue: 0,0:08:29.20,0:08:33.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Kriztina for that. When we had a good\Nrepresentative sample - a round 100,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:33.66,0:08:37.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,enough to be convincing, not so many that\NLitvinchuk wouldn't be able to digest them
Dialogue: 0,0:08:37.31,0:08:42.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,- I composed an email to him in English.\NThis wasn't as weird as it might seem. He
Dialogue: 0,0:08:42.32,0:08:46.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,had recruited senior staff from all over\NEurope and a couple of South African
Dialogue: 0,0:08:46.85,0:08:52.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,mercs, and they all use a kind of pidgin\NEnglish among themselves with generous
Dialogue: 0,0:08:52.34,0:08:57.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,pastings from Google Translate, because\NOPSEC, right? Fractured English was a lot
Dialogue: 0,0:08:57.50,0:09:02.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,easier to fake than native speech. Even\Nso, I wasn't going to leave this to
Dialogue: 0,0:09:02.37,0:09:05.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,chance. I grabbed a couple 1000 emails\Nfrom mid-level bureaucrat I was planning
Dialogue: 0,0:09:05.91,0:09:10.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on impersonating and threw them in a cloud\Nmachine where I kept a fork of Anonymouth,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:10.14,0:09:14.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a plagiarism detector that used stylometry\Nto profile the grammar, syntax, and
Dialogue: 0,0:09:14.24,0:09:18.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,vocabulary from a training set, then\Nevaluated new text to see if they seemed
Dialogue: 0,0:09:18.17,0:09:22.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,by the same author. I trained my\NAnonymouth on several thousand individual
Dialogue: 0,0:09:22.02,0:09:25.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,profiles from journalists and bloggers to\Nevery one of my bosses, which was
Dialogue: 0,0:09:25.76,0:09:29.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sometimes handy in figuring out when\Nsomeone was using a ghostwriter or
Dialogue: 0,0:09:29.30,0:09:32.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,delegated to a subordinate. Mainly,\Nthough, I used it for my own
Dialogue: 0,0:09:32.98,0:09:37.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,impersonations. I'm sure that other people\Nhave thought about using stylometry to
Dialogue: 0,0:09:37.03,0:09:40.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,fine tune impersonations, but no one's\Ntalking about it that I can find. It
Dialogue: 0,0:09:40.93,0:09:44.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,didn't take much work for me to tweak\NAnonymouth to give me a ranked order list
Dialogue: 0,0:09:44.16,0:09:48.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of suggestions to make my forgery less\Ndetectable to Anonymouth. Shorten this
Dialogue: 0,0:09:48.90,0:09:53.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sentence, find a synonym for that word,\Nadd a couple of commas. After a few passes
Dialogue: 0,0:09:53.22,0:09:59.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,through, my forgeries could fool humans\Nand robots every time. I had a guy in mind
Dialogue: 0,0:09:59.14,0:10:03.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for my whistleblower: one of the South\NAfricans, Nicholas Van Dijk. I'd seen him
Dialogue: 0,0:10:03.24,0:10:07.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in action in a bunch of flame wars with\Nhis Slovstakian counterparts. Friction
Dialogue: 0,0:10:07.90,0:10:12.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that would make him a believable rat. I\Nplayed it up. Giving Nicholas some thinly
Dialogue: 0,0:10:12.03,0:10:16.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,veiled grievances about how much dough his\Nenemies were raking in for their treachery
Dialogue: 0,0:10:16.21,0:10:20.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and fishing for a little finder's fee for\Nhis being such a straight arrow.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:20.01,0:10:24.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Verisimilitude. Litvinchuk would go\Npredictably apeshit when he learned that
Dialogue: 0,0:10:24.18,0:10:28.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,his corps was riddled with traitors. But\Neven he'd noticed something was off of a
Dialogue: 0,0:10:28.29,0:10:31.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,dickhead like Van Dijk, who'd knock out\Nhis teammates without trying to get
Dialogue: 0,0:10:31.54,0:10:35.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,something for himself in the deal. A\Ncouple of passes through Anonymouth, and I
Dialogue: 0,0:10:35.60,0:10:40.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,had a candidate text along with the URL\Nfor a pastebin that I put the SMSes into.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:40.54,0:10:46.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,No one at the Interior Ministry used PGP\Nfor email, because no normal human being
Dialogue: 0,0:10:46.07,0:10:50.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,does. And so it was simplicity itself to\Nmanufacture an email and in Litvinchuk's
Dialogue: 0,0:10:50.44,0:10:55.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,inbox that was indistinguishable from the\Nreal thing. I even forged the headers for
Dialogue: 0,0:10:55.17,0:10:59.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the same reason that a dollhouse builder\Npaints tiny titles on the spines of the
Dialogue: 0,0:10:59.34,0:11:02.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,books in the living room. Even though no\None will ever see them, there's a
Dialogue: 0,0:11:02.82,0:11:09.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,professional pride in getting the details\Nright. Also, I had a script that did it for me.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:09.12,0:11:14.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}stops reading from book{\i0}\NWell, there we go.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:14.28,0:11:19.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,J: Woohoo, I think you should...we all\Nthink the big applause right now.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:19.89,0:11:24.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,C D: I just realized, that I found out\Nabout Anonymouth at 25C3.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:24.24,0:11:27.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,J: Really?\NC D: I completely, like when I chose the
Dialogue: 0,0:11:27.79,0:11:30.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,reading, I wasn't thinking about that. And\Nas I was reading, I was like, didn't I
Dialogue: 0,0:11:30.56,0:11:35.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,learn about this at a CCC? And I did.\NJ: And now you're writing about it.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:35.60,0:11:39.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,C D: Yeah. Yeah. That's why I write off my\Ntrips to hacker cons.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:39.93,0:11:45.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,J: Huh. Do you actually use all those\Nthings for your research?
Dialogue: 0,0:11:45.88,0:11:50.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,C D: Uh, many of them. I can't say, that I\Nuse Anonymouth, because I don't have to
Dialogue: 0,0:11:50.38,0:11:54.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,forge many things, nor do I have to\Npuncture forgeries. But I mean, the thing
Dialogue: 0,0:11:54.81,0:11:59.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that immediately struck me during the\NAnonymouth presentation was, if you
Dialogue: 0,0:11:59.27,0:12:03.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,were like a fanfic writer, who wanted to\Nfind all the ways that your Harry Potter
Dialogue: 0,0:12:03.45,0:12:08.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,story was not quite like a J.K. Rowling\NHarry Potter story, you could then tweak
Dialogue: 0,0:12:08.43,0:12:12.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,your story to Rowling-ify it using\NAnonymouth. Right. Using this
Dialogue: 0,0:12:12.98,0:12:18.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,plagiarism detectors, that are, you see,\Nan adversarial stylometry tool. Of course,
Dialogue: 0,0:12:18.37,0:12:21.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,today, if you just wanted to make it seem\Nlike J.K. Rowling, you'd throw in some
Dialogue: 0,0:12:21.05,0:12:24.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,transphobic stuff. So, that would that\Nwould be the clincher.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:24.40,0:12:26.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,J: Probably, yes.\NC D: Yeah.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:26.91,0:12:33.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,J: But there's a pretty interesting\Ndiscussion of that. Because lots of
Dialogue: 0,0:12:33.64,0:12:43.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,authors and actually publishers are so\Nfreaking out about text AIs, that can
Dialogue: 0,0:12:43.49,0:12:49.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,generate texts, that are pretty good\Nalready. Not like human yet, but pretty
Dialogue: 0,0:12:49.86,0:12:51.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,good.\NC D: Aha.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:51.51,0:12:53.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,J: Umm...\NC D:Yeah.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:53.16,0:12:56.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,J: I think there's something behind that\Nalready.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:56.67,0:13:03.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,C D: I used a GPT3 composition tool, that\Nsome people I know built and played around
Dialogue: 0,0:13:03.13,0:13:10.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with it. And it is really far from doing\Nthe kind of work I do. I don't know. I
Dialogue: 0,0:13:10.34,0:13:13.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,won't say that it's really far from\Nautomating some tasks. Obviously it
Dialogue: 0,0:13:13.16,0:13:21.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,automates some tasks. But I think, that the\Nstate of GPT3 is such that, if you are
Dialogue: 0,0:13:21.94,0:13:26.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,worried about losing your job to GPT3, you\Nprobably have a really boring, terrible
Dialogue: 0,0:13:26.64,0:13:32.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,job. Because it's not producing anything\Nthat...I mean, apart from kind of text art.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:32.61,0:13:37.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's fun text art. I mean, I think maybe\Nyou could, like, replace Internet trolls
Dialogue: 0,0:13:37.69,0:13:41.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with it, you know. Every now and again,\NI'll write about, like, you know,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:41.19,0:13:45.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,criticism of Modi and these huge,\Nlike, Hindu nationalist troll armies will
Dialogue: 0,0:13:45.90,0:13:50.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,come after me and that the messages are so\Nself similar that they're really easy to
Dialogue: 0,0:13:50.86,0:13:54.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,identify and block. You don't even like a\Nsecond word. It's just like, you know,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:54.75,0:14:01.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,block report and away you go. But, if they\Nhad, like, a good GPT3 package, they could
Dialogue: 0,0:14:01.93,0:14:07.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,probably make a whole series of harassing\Nmessages that would be harder to detect.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:07.25,0:14:10.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But again, like, I'm not worried about\Nthose people losing their jobs. I am
Dialogue: 0,0:14:10.80,0:14:15.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,worried about, you know, the possibility\Nof like vast disinformation campaigns, that
Dialogue: 0,0:14:15.94,0:14:22.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are harder to block or detect, but not\Nabout the, you know, technology driven
Dialogue: 0,0:14:22.10,0:14:26.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,automation unemployment as a result of all\Nof the Internet trolls being replaced.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:26.93,0:14:31.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}laughs{\i0}\NJ: Yeah, I'm totally with you at that
Dialogue: 0,0:14:31.20,0:14:39.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,point, because there will always be the\Nlove for human generated text, for the art
Dialogue: 0,0:14:39.33,0:14:45.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of or behind it. \NAnd there are somehow, yeah...
Dialogue: 0,0:14:45.22,0:14:51.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,C D: A lot of the most remarkable\NGPT3 blocks, that have appeared, right,
Dialogue: 0,0:14:51.53,0:14:55.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where people of like use GPT3 to make\Nsomething, turn out to be straight up
Dialogue: 0,0:14:55.51,0:15:00.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,copy-pastes of actual texts written by\Nhumans, because GPT3 sometimes will just
Dialogue: 0,0:15:00.26,0:15:06.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,regurgitate, like, half paragraphs, whole\Nparagraphs that are part of its training
Dialogue: 0,0:15:06.15,0:15:11.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,data. And so, again, like that is a very\Nimpressive task, right, finding the, like,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:11.04,0:15:15.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the best paragraph from a bunch of pre-\Nwritten paragraphs by humans. That is
Dialogue: 0,0:15:15.67,0:15:19.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,impressive and it amounts to something,\Nbut it's not the same as composing it.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:19.77,0:15:28.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,J: Yeah, that's totally right. And it was\Npretty depressing I think, that when we put
Dialogue: 0,0:15:28.65,0:15:36.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,some legal texts into a Markov chain\Nand made a game, ok, which is the real
Dialogue: 0,0:15:36.69,0:15:42.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,legal text and which is the Markov chain,\Nand we made 3 or 4 rounds and
Dialogue: 0,0:15:42.12,0:15:47.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people always failed.\NC D: Yeah, I'm not surprised. I mean, it's
Dialogue: 0,0:15:47.10,0:15:51.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,an open secret that like it was several\Nmonths after Twitter's launch that someone
Dialogue: 0,0:15:51.94,0:15:57.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,noticed that Twitter's terms of service\Nrepresent repeatedly mentioned Flickr,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:57.23,0:16:00.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because they copied and pasted Flickr's\Nterms of service to make them Twitter's
Dialogue: 0,0:16:00.98,0:16:06.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,terms of service. And, like, no one, not\Neven Twitter's lawyers had read the terms
Dialogue: 0,0:16:06.58,0:16:11.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of service to notice that, it didn't\Nmention Twitter. So, you know, I'm not
Dialogue: 0,0:16:11.37,0:16:14.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,surprised. Like literally nobody reads\Nthose, right? Those are like self-
Dialogue: 0,0:16:14.66,0:16:19.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,reproducing text viruses.\NJ: Yeah, actually they are. Shall we have
Dialogue: 0,0:16:19.27,0:16:22.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a look into the questions we still have?\NC D: Yeah
Dialogue: 0,0:16:22.93,0:16:28.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,J: So, we do have 2 parts I think!?\NC:D: Right, I only have one of them.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:28.08,0:16:33.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,J: I think you have the one from the...\Nyour previous talk.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:33.30,0:16:37.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,C D: So, I can... One of my answer, one or two of\Nthese and then you can think about the
Dialogue: 0,0:16:37.44,0:16:48.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,rest of these. Right. So. What's the one\Nthat I liked here, oh, was ... We can't
Dialogue: 0,0:16:48.06,0:16:52.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,use Antimonopoly. It's not like you can\Ndissolve Facebook overnight,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:52.94,0:16:56.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,realistically, what's the roadmap to a\Nmore sustainable environment? So I think
Dialogue: 0,0:16:56.08,0:17:02.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that misunderstands the benefits of a\Nprotracted antitrust action. That, you
Dialogue: 0,0:17:02.56,0:17:07.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,know, if we were to say to Facebook,\Nall right, we're going to break out
Dialogue: 0,0:17:07.44,0:17:13.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,WhatsApp and Insta. Which I think we could\Ndo even without invoking antimonopoly law.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:13.09,0:17:19.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think you could say that, especially in\Nthe EU, their merger was was contingent on
Dialogue: 0,0:17:19.97,0:17:24.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,them not merging the backends of Facebook,\NInstagram and WhatsApp. And then they
Dialogue: 0,0:17:24.29,0:17:27.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,later merged the backends of Facebook,\NInstagram and WhatsApp. And I think if you
Dialogue: 0,0:17:27.50,0:17:34.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are given regulatory forbearance, if\Nyou're given an exemption to a regulation
Dialogue: 0,0:17:34.34,0:17:38.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on promise of certain conduct, then if you\Nengage in that conduct, then we should
Dialogue: 0,0:17:38.75,0:17:44.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,just revoke it. Right? We should just\Nrevoke the forbearance. I
Dialogue: 0,0:17:44.42,0:17:49.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,think that's a pretty straightforward\Nlift. But even if it were to take a long
Dialogue: 0,0:17:49.37,0:17:55.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,time, even if we spent a decade trying to\Nmake Google spin out its ad tech stack,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:55.55,0:18:03.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which I think we should do. That 10 years\Nwould really like dramatically alter the
Dialogue: 0,0:18:03.04,0:18:07.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,way that investors and corporate\Nexecutives thought about anti-competitive
Dialogue: 0,0:18:07.41,0:18:15.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,conduct. Right? It would get all\Nof the the people who are currently, when
Dialogue: 0,0:18:15.73,0:18:20.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they balance out, you know, the upside of\Na monopoly and the downside of monopoly,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:20.85,0:18:25.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it would weight the downside much more\Nheavily. And you would get the kind of
Dialogue: 0,0:18:25.04,0:18:30.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,forbearance you got, say from IBM, when\Nthey didn't go after Tom Jennings,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:30.44,0:18:36.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when he was making the Phoenix ROM. And\Nyou would then see things like investment.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:36.03,0:18:42.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, you know, the thing, that market\Nbelievers say about markets is, that they
Dialogue: 0,0:18:42.20,0:18:46.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,respond very quickly and regulators\Nrespond slowly. And that's true. The
Dialogue: 0,0:18:46.55,0:18:51.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,markets are very quick. You can\Nsee that in the growth of technologies
Dialogue: 0,0:18:51.37,0:18:56.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,over the crisis. Right? Like think of how\Nquickly markets turned Zoom into the thing
Dialogue: 0,0:18:56.90,0:19:01.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that we all use. Right. It was, you know,\Nif you tried to regulate a video
Dialogue: 0,0:19:01.97,0:19:06.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,conferencing system, though, by the time\Nthe consultations were done and so on, it
Dialogue: 0,0:19:06.33,0:19:09.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,would have been years later. And markets\Nare actually pretty good at fighting
Dialogue: 0,0:19:09.70,0:19:15.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,monopolies, if they're well regulated.\NRight. You know, the reason, that venture
Dialogue: 0,0:19:15.41,0:19:21.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,capitalists don't fund Facebook\Ncompetitors is not because they, you know,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:21.72,0:19:25.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,love Facebook and they wouldn't\Nwant to see Facebook in trouble. It's
Dialogue: 0,0:19:25.43,0:19:28.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because, they think that, if they tried to\Nfight Facebook, Facebook would destroy
Dialogue: 0,0:19:28.58,0:19:34.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,them. And so, if we were to put Facebook on\Nnotice that everything it did from now on
Dialogue: 0,0:19:34.59,0:19:37.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was going to be part of this ongoing\Nantitrust action, which I think just
Dialogue: 0,0:19:37.80,0:19:42.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,happened right just before Christmas with\Nthe new slate of anti-trust suits against
Dialogue: 0,0:19:42.84,0:19:48.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,them. Then, if you can make that, if you\Ncan make an investor understand that you
Dialogue: 0,0:19:48.64,0:19:54.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,could get capital to start a competitor to\NFacebook. Now, in terms of what we can do
Dialogue: 0,0:19:54.34,0:20:01.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that fits between antitrust action and\Nnothing, what we can do to get like jam
Dialogue: 0,0:20:01.42,0:20:08.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,today instead of jam tomorrow, there's two\Ncourses involving interoperability. So one
Dialogue: 0,0:20:08.31,0:20:12.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of them is is already in the Digital\NServices Act. It was in the Access Act
Dialogue: 0,0:20:12.37,0:20:19.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that was proposed in the US last year. And\Nthe DSA and the Access Act
Dialogue: 0,0:20:19.94,0:20:23.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,both have these mandatory interoperability\Ncomponents where they say, you know,
Dialogue: 0,0:20:23.92,0:20:28.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Facebook must produce an interface that\Nthird parties can log into. And they have
Dialogue: 0,0:20:28.32,0:20:30.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,different ways of trying to make sure that\Nthat third party isn't Cambridge
Dialogue: 0,0:20:30.73,0:20:36.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Analytica. And it's going to be, it's\Nhard, but it will open some
Dialogue: 0,0:20:36.24,0:20:41.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,regulatory space in concert with these\Nantitrust enforcement actions. But even
Dialogue: 0,0:20:41.55,0:20:50.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,more exciting would be an interoperator's\Ndefense, a law or a regulation that said,
Dialogue: 0,0:20:50.82,0:20:56.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if you devise a way to interface a new\Nproduct with an existing product for a
Dialogue: 0,0:20:56.55,0:21:02.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,legitimate purpose, including increased\Nconsumer freedom, security auditing,
Dialogue: 0,0:21:02.55,0:21:07.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,accessibility for people with disabilities\Nand you know independent repair and so on,
Dialogue: 0,0:21:07.81,0:21:12.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that notwithstanding any law, software\Npatents, copyrights, terms of service,
Dialogue: 0,0:21:12.40,0:21:17.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,trade secrecy, non-compete, you have an\Nabsolute defense. And obviously passing
Dialogue: 0,0:21:17.58,0:21:21.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that law would be really hard, but it\Nwouldn't have to come legislatively, like
Dialogue: 0,0:21:21.25,0:21:27.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you could imagine bits and pieces of it\Nemerging. Like maybe we say to Facebook
Dialogue: 0,0:21:27.95,0:21:32.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that the remedy for it's unlawful and\Ndeceptive merger with Instagram and
Dialogue: 0,0:21:32.89,0:21:38.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,WhatsApp is that they have to sign a\Nconsent decree saying they won't punish
Dialogue: 0,0:21:38.07,0:21:42.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people who build interoperable services on\Nthis basis. And so they have to act as
Dialogue: 0,0:21:42.39,0:21:45.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,though that were the law, even if it\Nwasn't the law. Or we might see things
Dialogue: 0,0:21:45.30,0:21:49.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like a procurement guideline where you\Nknow we might have educational
Dialogue: 0,0:21:49.36,0:21:53.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,authorities who say to Google, yeah, we're\Ngoing to buy Google classroom site
Dialogue: 0,0:21:53.73,0:21:58.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,licenses for all of our locked down kids,\Nbut as a condition of that, you have to
Dialogue: 0,0:21:58.89,0:22:04.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,promise that you will not seek any kind of\Nvengeance against people who do the
Dialogue: 0,0:22:04.55,0:22:09.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,following things. Or we might say to\NApple, as a procurement matter, if we're
Dialogue: 0,0:22:09.97,0:22:14.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,going to buy fifty thousand iPads for our\Nschool district, you have to promise not
Dialogue: 0,0:22:14.22,0:22:18.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to sue people who produce side loading\Ntools, because we have apps that our
Dialogue: 0,0:22:18.15,0:22:22.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,district depends on, and we can't, you\Nknow, we can't be dependent on you guys
Dialogue: 0,0:22:22.47,0:22:26.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,deciding that you don't want to lock that\Napp out. And so you get this kind of like
Dialogue: 0,0:22:26.86,0:22:31.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,multilayered stack where you have\Nantitrust enforcement that is like 'pour
Dialogue: 0,0:22:31.74,0:22:35.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,encourager les autres'. You know,\Nsometimes you have to execute an admiral
Dialogue: 0,0:22:35.88,0:22:39.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to encourage the rest of them. And that\Njust ripples out through the whole sector.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:39.95,0:22:44.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then you have interoperability\Nmandates, through regulation that are slow
Dialogue: 0,0:22:44.48,0:22:49.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,moving, but not as slow moving as\Nlawsuits. You have new market
Dialogue: 0,0:22:49.13,0:22:53.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,opportunities that are much faster moving\Nthat will depend on both the lawsuits and
Dialogue: 0,0:22:53.43,0:22:57.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the regulation. And then you have\Nunilateral actions that governments can
Dialogue: 0,0:22:57.64,0:23:01.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,take with very little consultation\Nwithout having to get things
Dialogue: 0,0:23:01.46,0:23:05.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,through parliament where they can just\Nbind over technology companies to behave
Dialogue: 0,0:23:05.28,0:23:09.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in certain ways so that, you know, they\Nmust do it. Like imagine if the remedy for
Dialogue: 0,0:23:09.76,0:23:15.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Dieselgate was that the German state said\Nto Volkswagen and other giant German
Dialogue: 0,0:23:15.40,0:23:20.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,automakers, you are no longer allowed to\Nblock any independent auditing service,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:20.13,0:23:24.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,repair or manufacture of parts for any of\Nyour vehicles. It's a natural remedy,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:24.98,0:23:29.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,right? Like it directly addresses the bad\Nconduct, but it also creates right to
Dialogue: 0,0:23:29.26,0:23:33.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,repair, interoperability, independent\Nsecurity auditing, all of that stuff out
Dialogue: 0,0:23:33.05,0:23:37.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the gate. And like you could get it\Njust as part of a consent decree. You
Dialogue: 0,0:23:37.27,0:23:41.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,could get it just with the German\Nregulator talking to the lawyers for Audi
Dialogue: 0,0:23:41.24,0:23:45.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and saying, if you don't want your CEO to\Ngo to jail, you have to sign this paper.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:45.50,0:23:49.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Right? And then then you get actual, like\Nfast moving action. And so I think it's
Dialogue: 0,0:23:49.29,0:23:55.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that kind of holistic thinking about how\Ntechnology, markets, law and norms all
Dialogue: 0,0:23:55.73,0:24:00.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,work together that gets us to a solution.\NAnd then as against this backdrop,
Dialogue: 0,0:24:00.31,0:24:05.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,remember, that there are people who are\Nworried about monopolies in beer who are
Dialogue: 0,0:24:05.92,0:24:08.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,going to be fighting your corner. And\Nthere's people are going to be upset that
Dialogue: 0,0:24:08.79,0:24:13.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,all glasses are made by one company,\NLuxottica in Italy, who've raised prices a
Dialogue: 0,0:24:13.97,0:24:17.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,thousand percent over the last decade, who\Nare also going to be fighting your corner
Dialogue: 0,0:24:17.40,0:24:21.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on this. And so, you know, as opposed to\Nbeing a war on a thousand fronts, this is
Dialogue: 0,0:24:21.96,0:24:26.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,going to be a battle with a thousand\Nallies. And that's going to make that
Dialogue: 0,0:24:26.79,0:24:32.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,antitrust stuff move a lot faster than it\Ndid with Microsoft, because this won't be
Dialogue: 0,0:24:32.49,0:24:38.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,just a one off assault on Microsoft, or on\NGoogle, or on Facebook. This is going to be
Dialogue: 0,0:24:38.39,0:24:42.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like a global movement to it to attack\Nmonopolism itself.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:42.92,0:24:51.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,J: As I just said, markets, ecosystems.\NThere was another pretty interesting
Dialogue: 0,0:24:51.38,0:24:56.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,question about, by the way,\Ninteroperability and free and open source
Dialogue: 0,0:24:56.49,0:25:06.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,ecosystems and things like probably the\Nfattyverse or so, that just rise and come
Dialogue: 0,0:25:06.48,0:25:14.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,up as a yeah as a real alternative to the\Nsolutions we've had over the last 10 or 15
Dialogue: 0,0:25:14.50,0:25:19.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,years? What do you see in those?\NC D: So I think the thing that's missing,
Dialogue: 0,0:25:19.68,0:25:23.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean, I like them. I use them. I have a\NMastodon account. I'm actually trying to
Dialogue: 0,0:25:23.26,0:25:31.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,stand up a Mastodon server right now. And\Nbut the problem with Diaspora, Mastodon
Dialogue: 0,0:25:31.68,0:25:37.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and other, like federated answers to\NFacebook is not centralization
Dialogue: 0,0:25:37.24,0:25:42.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,versus decentralization or features versus\Nnon-features. It's interoperability.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:42.34,0:25:47.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Specifically, it's both the lack of a\Nstandardized interoperable means of
Dialogue: 0,0:25:47.77,0:25:51.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,connecting to these services, which, to\Nits credit, Twitter is actually like
Dialogue: 0,0:25:51.82,0:25:56.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,trying to do something about Twitter's\NProject Blue Sky. I think they have
Dialogue: 0,0:25:56.08,0:26:00.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like, they've sat down and they've gone\Nlike, well, having absolute control of our
Dialogue: 0,0:26:00.55,0:26:05.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,users is worth this much. Not being\Nresponsible for moderating content is
Dialogue: 0,0:26:05.72,0:26:10.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,worth this much. The only way we get out\Nfrom not moderating content is by not
Dialogue: 0,0:26:10.21,0:26:13.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,owning the content, not having the\Ncapacity to moderate the content
Dialogue: 0,0:26:13.71,0:26:18.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and just being like a federator or a\Ncentral node and a federator. And so
Dialogue: 0,0:26:18.17,0:26:22.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they're kind of moving towards it. And\Nthey want to provide like a managed
Dialogue: 0,0:26:22.08,0:26:26.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,interface. Right. They want to have, like,\Nyou know, a standardized API that everyone
Dialogue: 0,0:26:26.64,0:26:29.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,accesses. The problem with those\Nstandardized APIs is that Twitter used to
Dialogue: 0,0:26:29.73,0:26:34.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have them and then they took them away. So\Nyou know the thing that produces an
Dialogue: 0,0:26:34.84,0:26:40.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,equilibrium where those standardized APIs\Nare both good and durable is competitive
Dialogue: 0,0:26:40.63,0:26:46.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,compatibility. If you know, that the day\Nyou withdraw the standardized API, hackers
Dialogue: 0,0:26:46.02,0:26:51.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,all over the world are going to write bots\Nthat just replace the API with scrapers,
Dialogue: 0,0:26:51.46,0:26:55.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that you're going to have to fight like\Nthis, it's like marching on
Dialogue: 0,0:26:55.24,0:26:58.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Stalingrad, right? Like you're just going\Nto have, like, this kind of endless
Dialogue: 0,0:26:58.75,0:27:06.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,grinding trench warfare with with hackers\Nwho will be legally immunized from your
Dialogue: 0,0:27:06.27,0:27:11.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from any legal tool you have to shut them\Ndown. And all you'll be able to do is just
Dialogue: 0,0:27:11.66,0:27:17.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,tweak intrusion detection system rules and\Ntry in a system with hundreds of millions
Dialogue: 0,0:27:17.49,0:27:23.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of users to distinguish users who are just\Nweird from bots. Right. Because like, when
Dialogue: 0,0:27:23.25,0:27:26.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you have, like think about Facebook, right.\NFacebook's got 2.6 billion users
Dialogue: 0,0:27:26.98,0:27:30.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and has 2.6 million, one in a\Nmillion use cases or 2.6
Dialogue: 0,0:27:30.62,0:27:35.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,thousand one in a million use cases every\Nsingle day. Right. So distinguishing the
Dialogue: 0,0:27:35.49,0:27:39.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,dolphins from the tuna in your tuna net is\Ngoing to be really hard when you're
Dialogue: 0,0:27:39.50,0:27:43.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,operating at that scale. And so, \Nyou know, when you're like in the
Dialogue: 0,0:27:43.69,0:27:48.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,meeting with the head of, the CTO and the\NCSO and the chief marketing officer and
Dialogue: 0,0:27:48.36,0:27:51.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the CFO and the shareholders and\Nthe board, and they're like "We need more
Dialogue: 0,0:27:51.91,0:27:55.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,revenue. We're going to shut down the API,\Nwe're going to nerf the API". The
Dialogue: 0,0:27:55.44,0:27:59.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,technologists in the room can say this is\Nwhat the bill for that is going to look
Dialogue: 0,0:27:59.33,0:28:04.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like and it's going to exceed the excess\Ncapital we get from blocking the API. And
Dialogue: 0,0:28:04.40,0:28:09.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so, you know, this idea that, like, we can\Njust like all of us, decide that next
Dialogue: 0,0:28:09.93,0:28:13.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Wednesday we're going to shut down our\NTwitter accounts and reopen them on
Dialogue: 0,0:28:13.54,0:28:18.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Mastodon. It's crazy. It's not how\Ntechnology has ever worked, right? The way
Dialogue: 0,0:28:18.50,0:28:23.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that we got Keynote as like a standard for\Na lot of people's PowerPoint presentations
Dialogue: 0,0:28:23.71,0:28:28.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or conference presentations was not by\Neveryone saying, like: On Thursday, the
Dialogue: 0,0:28:28.74,0:28:33.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,21st we stop using PowerPoint, we\Nstart using Keynote. It was by iWorks
Dialogue: 0,0:28:33.07,0:28:36.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Suite being able to read and write\NPowerPoint files. And by having this kind
Dialogue: 0,0:28:36.87,0:28:41.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of this, this kind of protracted period\Nwhere it was not binary. Right? Like
Dialogue: 0,0:28:41.85,0:28:45.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you can have one foot in one camp, one\Nfoot in the other, you know, I analogize it
Dialogue: 0,0:28:45.57,0:28:50.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sometimes to my family's migration\Nhistory, where my grandmother was a Soviet
Dialogue: 0,0:28:50.63,0:28:56.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,refugee. She came to Canada and she lost\Ntouch with her family for 15 years. Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:28:56.11,0:29:00.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,She couldn't phone them. She couldn't\Nwrite to them, like they exchanged
Dialogue: 0,0:29:00.79,0:29:04.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,messages. Sometimes if someone got a visa\Nto go to Leningrad, they she would tell
Dialogue: 0,0:29:04.41,0:29:08.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,them what to tell her mother if they could\Nfind her mother. And, you know,
Dialogue: 0,0:29:08.95,0:29:13.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,obviously, like leaving the Soviet Union\Nwas really hard for my family. It was a
Dialogue: 0,0:29:13.34,0:29:17.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,really hard choice, even though Canada was\Na better place to be for them because of
Dialogue: 0,0:29:17.61,0:29:21.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the very high costs that came with it. And\Nthey have family members. I have family
Dialogue: 0,0:29:21.61,0:29:26.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,members in St. Petersburg who never came,\Nbecause the cost was too high. So five
Dialogue: 0,0:29:26.16,0:29:30.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,years ago, I left London and moved to Los\NAngeles. And here I am in my office in Los
Dialogue: 0,0:29:30.09,0:29:34.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Angeles. Not only did all of my books come\Nwith me, but let me see if I can get it in
Dialogue: 0,0:29:34.12,0:29:37.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the frame over there is my theremin. OK,\Nthat's the theremin that I bought that
Dialogue: 0,0:29:37.97,0:29:42.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,runs on British voltage that has a little\Nmains adapter. We just got off a zoom call
Dialogue: 0,0:29:42.72,0:29:47.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with my relatives in London and we talk to\Nmy family in Canada every week. So for us,
Dialogue: 0,0:29:47.53,0:29:50.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the switching costs were really low\Nbecause if we changed our mind, we could
Dialogue: 0,0:29:50.75,0:29:54.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,go back. And in fact, this is the third\Ntime I've moved to Los Angeles so I could
Dialogue: 0,0:29:54.99,0:29:58.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I could try Los Angeles, see how it\Nworked, go back to London, come back. It
Dialogue: 0,0:29:58.82,0:30:03.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was expensive, right? But it wasn't\Nleaving the Soviet Union in the forties
Dialogue: 0,0:30:03.01,0:30:08.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,expensive. And so, you know, by all means,\Nbuild the place that people who want to
Dialogue: 0,0:30:08.22,0:30:13.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,escape Mark Zuckerberg's Iron Curtain will\Nfind as a happy home. But give them the
Dialogue: 0,0:30:13.44,0:30:17.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,ability to have one foot in one, one foot\Nin the other. And, you know, the other
Dialogue: 0,0:30:17.25,0:30:22.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,piece of this is every time Zuckerberg\Nsays, oh, I'm blocking Interop tools to
Dialogue: 0,0:30:22.10,0:30:27.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,keep my users safe. Remember that in the\NDDR they said the Berlin Wall isn't to
Dialogue: 0,0:30:27.27,0:30:32.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,keep East Germans in, it's to keep West\NGermans out of the workers paradise. And
Dialogue: 0,0:30:32.77,0:30:41.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's the same fucking excuse.\NJ: It always is. I just got in a message
Dialogue: 0,0:30:41.64,0:30:49.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,here and probably an interesting question,\Nby the way, or actually two, linking
Dialogue: 0,0:30:49.76,0:30:59.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,together. Coming back to the monopolies,\Nyou did not say much about Amazon on your
Dialogue: 0,0:30:59.48,0:31:05.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,talk before. And we'll have another\Nquestion for the fireside chat here with
Dialogue: 0,0:31:05.98,0:31:14.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,your book. That the person asked why you\Nactually went away from publishing under
Dialogue: 0,0:31:14.45,0:31:22.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the CC licenses and went to bigger\Npublishing houses. Would you like to
Dialogue: 0,0:31:22.23,0:31:25.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,explain probably why, also the Amazon part\Nthen...
Dialogue: 0,0:31:25.74,0:31:29.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,C D: I didn't work Amazon in just because\Nof time pressure, but all of this stuff
Dialogue: 0,0:31:29.75,0:31:34.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,applies to Amazon. I mean, I think the\Nmost interesting thing about Amazon is in
Dialogue: 0,0:31:34.10,0:31:38.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,terms of its worker uprising, where\Nthere's been an explicit, so remember that
Dialogue: 0,0:31:38.85,0:31:42.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,all tech companies are split into some of\Nthe highest paid workers on Earth and some
Dialogue: 0,0:31:42.83,0:31:46.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the lowest paid workers on Earth.\NRight. And so in Amazon's case, that's
Dialogue: 0,0:31:46.35,0:31:50.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like the warehouse workers who have some\Nof the worst working conditions and so on.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:50.15,0:31:55.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And explicitly, the tech worker uprising\Nin Amazon was in solidarity with the
Dialogue: 0,0:31:55.70,0:32:00.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,warehouse workers. And that's really\Ninteresting, right, because it's crossing
Dialogue: 0,0:32:00.29,0:32:05.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,these class boundaries and it's crossing\Nthese divisions that the firms themselves
Dialogue: 0,0:32:05.42,0:32:10.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,deliberately created to prevent\Nsolidarity. You know, in the same way that
Dialogue: 0,0:32:10.33,0:32:15.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the early days of the trade union\Nmovement in the US, if the Italian auto
Dialogue: 0,0:32:15.26,0:32:18.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,workers were on strike, they'd bring in\NGerman auto workers to break the strike
Dialogue: 0,0:32:18.72,0:32:22.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and they would try to make it about\NGermans and Italians, not workers. In the
Dialogue: 0,0:32:22.85,0:32:27.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,same way, you have this kind of, you divide\Nup the workplace into contractors and non-
Dialogue: 0,0:32:27.46,0:32:32.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,contractors, green badges and blue badges.\NAnd it it works to drive a fracture line
Dialogue: 0,0:32:32.92,0:32:38.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,between different people who actually have\Nshared interests. In terms of publishing.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:38.75,0:32:42.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, it's about monopolies. There's five\Npublishers left and in fact, there's about
Dialogue: 0,0:32:42.23,0:32:46.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to be four because Bertelsmann is buying\NSimon and Schuster, assuming the DOJ lets
Dialogue: 0,0:32:46.13,0:32:49.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,them do it, which, you know, this is kind\Nof like the first litmus test of whether
Dialogue: 0,0:32:49.96,0:32:57.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Biden's DOJ has got like any real serious\Ncommitment to blocking monopolistic
Dialogue: 0,0:32:57.07,0:33:01.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,mergers, because the idea that we should\Ngo from five companies to four in
Dialogue: 0,0:33:01.13,0:33:07.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,publishing is outrageous. There's just no\Nreason for it. So the, you know, with five
Dialogue: 0,0:33:07.92,0:33:14.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,publishers, there's exactly one that lets\Nme go DRM free, and that's Tor. And Tor
Dialogue: 0,0:33:14.04,0:33:19.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was also the only one that would let me go\NCreative Commons. And they change their
Dialogue: 0,0:33:19.90,0:33:26.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,mind. And so the choice was try and self\Npublish, which frankly, like I've done it,
Dialogue: 0,0:33:26.49,0:33:30.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's hard work. I would get one tenth as\Nmany books written and I would go to my
Dialogue: 0,0:33:30.98,0:33:37.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,deathbed with dozens of unwritten books\Nbut a better Creative Commons track record
Dialogue: 0,0:33:37.54,0:33:43.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or suck it up and I sucked it up. I don't\Nlike it and they know I don't like it. I
Dialogue: 0,0:33:43.40,0:33:48.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like Tor. They're the smallest, most,\Nthey're owned by McMillan, which is owned
Dialogue: 0,0:33:48.05,0:33:54.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,by von Holtzbrink and you know they're the\Nsmallest, they're most ethical. They're the
Dialogue: 0,0:33:54.91,0:34:00.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,ones that I like the best. But they didn't\Nlike the Creative Commons licenses in the
Dialogue: 0,0:34:00.45,0:34:06.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,end. And so that was where I ended up. It\Nsucks now you know, I can still cc license
Dialogue: 0,0:34:06.66,0:34:09.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the other stuff that I do. And if\Nanything, I've become more permissive in
Dialogue: 0,0:34:09.89,0:34:15.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that. And I left Boing Boing almost a year\Nago, a year minus a week and a half ago.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:15.45,0:34:19.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And when I left, I started this new thing\Ncalled Pluralistic. And Boing Boing was
Dialogue: 0,0:34:19.99,0:34:25.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,licensed under a very restrictive cc\Nlicense. This is cc-by. It's as close as
Dialogue: 0,0:34:25.44,0:34:30.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you get to a public domain without going\Ncc-zero, it just requires attribution. And
Dialogue: 0,0:34:30.25,0:34:34.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so pluralistic is a pretty significant\Npiece of writing. I am taking a break from
Dialogue: 0,0:34:34.64,0:34:39.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it this week, but I write three or four\Nsubstantial articles every day that are
Dialogue: 0,0:34:39.46,0:34:45.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,cc-zero or cc-by and that I think like,\Nyou know, if you're interested in my work,
Dialogue: 0,0:34:45.99,0:34:50.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like there's a lot of it out there under\Nextremely generous, far more generous than
Dialogue: 0,0:34:50.11,0:34:54.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,my novels' cc licenses. I wish I could do\Nthe cc licenses to. I mean, if nothing
Dialogue: 0,0:34:54.11,0:34:58.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,else, I mean, this is a little inside\Nbaseball, but given that it's a German
Dialogue: 0,0:34:58.36,0:35:03.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,audience and it's relevant to Germany. So\Nthe Germans that I meet who've read Little
Dialogue: 0,0:35:03.33,0:35:06.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Brother and my other books inevitably\Nfound them through Creative Commons
Dialogue: 0,0:35:06.49,0:35:11.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,licenses. In part, I think because English\Nworks in Germany are still pretty
Dialogue: 0,0:35:11.15,0:35:14.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,expensive relative to the German\Ntranslations. And Germans have a high
Dialogue: 0,0:35:14.48,0:35:18.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,enough literacy in English that they like\Nto read original English texts. And so
Dialogue: 0,0:35:18.59,0:35:23.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,before there were e-book markets that\Nserved Germany with English language text,
Dialogue: 0,0:35:23.74,0:35:27.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the only way to get an English language\Nebook was to pirate it or get a
Dialogue: 0,0:35:27.02,0:35:30.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,cc one, and mine was the only cc one. So\Nwhat's interesting about that is now,
Dialogue: 0,0:35:30.68,0:35:35.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,thanks to Tor books, I'm able to run my\Nown eBook store if you go to craphound.com
Dialogue: 0,0:35:35.12,0:35:40.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,slash shop, I have an eBook store, it's DRM\NFree, EULA free books, and the way the
Dialogue: 0,0:35:40.73,0:35:45.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,publishing contracts work is my British\Npublisher has rights in British
Dialogue: 0,0:35:45.18,0:35:48.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,territories except Canada, like former\NBritish Empire territories, except
Dialogue: 0,0:35:48.79,0:35:56.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Canada. India, Australia, Canada, New\NZealand, the UK and so on. And my American
Dialogue: 0,0:35:56.82,0:36:03.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,publisher has rights in the US and Canada.\NAnd then nobody has the exclusive right to
Dialogue: 0,0:36:03.04,0:36:08.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,non English speaking territories, like\NGermany. And about 10 to 15 percent of my
Dialogue: 0,0:36:08.90,0:36:14.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,ebook sales come from Germany. And I get\Nall the money from those, right. When I
Dialogue: 0,0:36:14.18,0:36:18.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sell an ebook in the UK, I give 70 percent\Nof the money to my publisher and then they
Dialogue: 0,0:36:18.80,0:36:22.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,give me twenty five percent back as my\Nroyalty. When I sell a book in the US, I
Dialogue: 0,0:36:22.75,0:36:26.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,give seventy percent to my US publisher\Nand they give me back twenty five percent
Dialogue: 0,0:36:26.46,0:36:30.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as my royalty. When I sell a book in\NGermany, I keep all of it. I get twice as
Dialogue: 0,0:36:30.63,0:36:35.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,much money. And so 10 to 15 percent of my\Nreadership are in Germany and they account
Dialogue: 0,0:36:35.70,0:36:41.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for 30 percent of my gross receipts from\Nthe website. And so that is like super
Dialogue: 0,0:36:41.21,0:36:45.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,cool. And you know I understand that my\Npublisher is not neither here nor there on
Dialogue: 0,0:36:45.09,0:36:49.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that one because they don't get a dime\Nfrom it. But for me, my German audience is
Dialogue: 0,0:36:49.08,0:36:53.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,super important. My German, English\Nspeaking audience, is super important.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:53.40,0:37:04.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,J: And, would have self-publishing ever\Nbe a way for you in the largest scale,
Dialogue: 0,0:37:04.58,0:37:14.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so like Joanna Penn is doing in the UK?\NC D: It's just a lot of work. I mean, it
Dialogue: 0,0:37:14.24,0:37:21.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is like like I work at 16 to 18 hour day,\Nmost days. Like I did the - so writing
Dialogue: 0,0:37:21.16,0:37:26.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Pluralistic, doing EFF and working on\Nnovels during the crisis, the first day I
Dialogue: 0,0:37:26.25,0:37:33.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,took off between March 19th, after March\N19th was December the 17th. So I didn't
Dialogue: 0,0:37:33.98,0:37:38.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have a weekend off, I didn't have a day\Noff. So and I wrote a book. I wrote a book
Dialogue: 0,0:37:38.72,0:37:44.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,during the crisis and I self published an\Naudio book and I had four books come out.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:44.10,0:37:51.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And - you know, I if - if I were doing\Nmore, if I were doing the stuff that my
Dialogue: 0,0:37:51.70,0:37:55.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,publisher does, I wouldn't have written\Nthat book. I would have written maybe half
Dialogue: 0,0:37:55.34,0:38:02.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that book. And so it's just a matter\Nof how much time I have. And, you know, I
Dialogue: 0,0:38:02.10,0:38:05.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have done an experiment. I did a self\Npublish short story collection and made a
Dialogue: 0,0:38:05.44,0:38:08.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,bunch of money, like relative to how short\Nstory - short story collections
Dialogue: 0,0:38:08.53,0:38:11.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,don't make a lot of money usually. So it\Nmade about three times as much, four times
Dialogue: 0,0:38:11.54,0:38:17.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as much. But the amount of the actual\Ngross dollars that it made was
Dialogue: 0,0:38:17.16,0:38:21.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,significantly less than I would get for\Ngoing through a publisher. And you know
Dialogue: 0,0:38:21.69,0:38:29.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that the amount of extra work was a\Nnovel's worth of work. And so I just, you
Dialogue: 0,0:38:29.70,0:38:34.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,know, back to, like what I want to be\Nworried about on my deathbed. And I would
Dialogue: 0,0:38:34.84,0:38:43.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,much rather have published all of these\Nbooks without EULAs, without DRM and, you
Dialogue: 0,0:38:43.53,0:38:49.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,know, argued for a more robust set of fair\Ndealing and fair use rules that would
Dialogue: 0,0:38:49.49,0:38:53.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,allow people to use them widely than\Nhaving written half as many books, but
Dialogue: 0,0:38:53.36,0:38:55.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,gotten them all out under CC to a much\Nsmaller audience.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:55.93,0:38:59.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,J: Yeah, it's a [balances with\Nhands], yeah.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:59.17,0:39:03.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,C D: It's not, I mean, I'm not thrilled\Nabout it. It's like and maybe it's the
Dialogue: 0,0:39:03.70,0:39:09.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,wrong call - I don't know. But it's like,\Nyou know. It's the call I made for now.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:09.22,0:39:13.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know, if we see massive de-\Nmonopolization, maybe it'll get easier.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:13.25,0:39:21.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,J: Hmm. I see in the chat. We do have a\Nquestion. So, do we want to try to have
Dialogue: 0,0:39:21.55,0:39:26.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,someone free the microphone and ask the\Nquestion here in the room?
Dialogue: 0,0:39:26.91,0:39:30.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Guest-sir#3: I think I'm now unmuted.\NJ: Yes, you're.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:30.11,0:39:34.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Guest: Hi Cory, just a quick question. So\Nas the readers, is there anything we can
Dialogue: 0,0:39:34.42,0:39:38.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,do about this? It seems like the business\Nof publishing is pretty in, let's say, a
Dialogue: 0,0:39:38.78,0:39:41.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,bit of a difficult situation. Is there\Nanything we can do?
Dialogue: 0,0:39:41.66,0:39:46.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,C D: Yeah, I mean, I think this is the\Nproblem with our consumerism more broadly
Dialogue: 0,0:39:46.91,0:39:51.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is that, you know, consumerism, the value\Nof consumer rights movements - and there
Dialogue: 0,0:39:51.36,0:39:54.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are some very, you know EFF, have has its\Norigins in consumer rights, groups like
Dialogue: 0,0:39:54.44,0:39:58.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,BEUC and EDRI are fundamentally\Nconsumer rights groups - the value
Dialogue: 0,0:39:58.75,0:40:03.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of them is they work fast, right? Like\Nconsumer power is fast power, but
Dialogue: 0,0:40:03.61,0:40:14.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,its limited power and citizen power is\Nslow. But consumers can't, by definition, can't
Dialogue: 0,0:40:14.51,0:40:20.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,shop their way out of a monopoly. Making\Nbetter consumer choices, making better
Dialogue: 0,0:40:20.11,0:40:25.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,individual choices will not solve\Nmonopolism because the whole point of
Dialogue: 0,0:40:25.64,0:40:29.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,monopolism is that the meaningful choices\Nhave been taken off the table. That's
Dialogue: 0,0:40:29.85,0:40:33.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,- that's the real problem of monopolism is\Nthe way that it distorts our public
Dialogue: 0,0:40:33.72,0:40:38.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,policy. And so for that, you need to be\Ninvolved in democracy. And so to be
Dialogue: 0,0:40:38.75,0:40:45.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,involved in democracy is to not think of\Nyourself primarily as an actor whose voice
Dialogue: 0,0:40:45.09,0:40:51.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is felt through purchase decisions, but\Nrather through someone who's part of a
Dialogue: 0,0:40:51.10,0:41:00.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,movement. And, you know, the good news is\Nthat there's a wide political spectrum of
Dialogue: 0,0:41:00.00,0:41:05.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,mainstream political movements that are\Nconcerned with monopoly right now. And
Dialogue: 0,0:41:05.51,0:41:10.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's not the exclusive purview of the\Nleft. I mean, the right for a long time,
Dialogue: 0,0:41:10.23,0:41:15.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we're universally cheerleaders for\Nmonopoly. But increasingly, you
Dialogue: 0,0:41:15.50,0:41:21.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,know,they're like: Well, I was fine when\NFacebook was de platforming anti-pipeline
Dialogue: 0,0:41:21.51,0:41:27.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,activists and trans-rights activists. But\Nnow that Alex Jones is gone, I'm you know,
Dialogue: 0,0:41:27.05,0:41:31.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where will AfD meet if not on Facebook?\NAnd so now suddenly they're all worried
Dialogue: 0,0:41:31.82,0:41:38.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about monopoly. And, you know, the risk is\Nthat they will structure their anti-
Dialogue: 0,0:41:38.08,0:41:41.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,monopoly remedies in ways that actually\Njust make the monopoly stronger. The big
Dialogue: 0,0:41:41.95,0:41:50.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,one of those is arguing for more intense,\Nmore fine grained accountability for
Dialogue: 0,0:41:50.82,0:41:55.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,moderation decisions. And the thing about\Nthat is, the reason that Facebook makes bad
Dialogue: 0,0:41:55.63,0:42:01.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,moderation decisions is not merely because\NMark Zuckerberg is not well suited to
Dialogue: 0,0:42:01.09,0:42:04.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,being in charge of the lives of 2.6\Nbillion people. It's because, like no
Dialogue: 0,0:42:04.63,0:42:09.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,one on Earth should have that job. And, if\Nwe say, all right, you've got to moderate
Dialogue: 0,0:42:09.72,0:42:13.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,all the bad stuff or moderate better or\Nnot have more false positives or
Dialogue: 0,0:42:13.85,0:42:18.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,whatever, stop harassment or anything\Nelse, all we do is we create this like
Dialogue: 0,0:42:18.61,0:42:23.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,floor underneath which no one can afford\Nto participate as an alternative to
Dialogue: 0,0:42:23.60,0:42:28.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Facebook. And that just makes Facebook the\Nendless monopoly. And I fear that both the
Dialogue: 0,0:42:28.20,0:42:34.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,right and the left - for their own reasons\N- are in their anti-monopoly energy going
Dialogue: 0,0:42:34.18,0:42:38.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,down the wrong path here. And so this is\Nwhere we need people in movements who are
Dialogue: 0,0:42:38.90,0:42:43.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,technologists and understand the\Ntechnology and can say - in the same way
Dialogue: 0,0:42:43.39,0:42:48.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that we've said now for decades,\Nwhenever someone says: Oh, we need to get
Dialogue: 0,0:42:48.42,0:42:53.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,rid of cryptography and replace it with\Ncryptography-with-lawful-access-back-doors
Dialogue: 0,0:42:53.89,0:42:58.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and that will only let the good guys in\Nand won't let the bad guys in - and we say
Dialogue: 0,0:42:58.44,0:43:03.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to them, look, you know, I am here as your\Nconstituent, as a technologist, as someone
Dialogue: 0,0:43:03.20,0:43:06.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who works in the field and I'm going to\Nexplain to you what's at risk and why that
Dialogue: 0,0:43:06.96,0:43:10.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,doesn't work. You know, in words that you\Ncan understand. We need to go in and have
Dialogue: 0,0:43:10.68,0:43:16.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,those same conversations about moderation\Nand about this idea that, like, it's not
Dialogue: 0,0:43:16.96,0:43:23.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,too late for a dynamic Internet. That we\Ncan we can aspire to something better than
Dialogue: 0,0:43:23.70,0:43:28.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a slightly more responsible Facebook. That\Nwe can aspire to a more self determining
Dialogue: 0,0:43:28.98,0:43:34.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,more pluralistic Internet where you don't\Nhave to hope that Facebook cleans up its
Dialogue: 0,0:43:34.01,0:43:40.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,act. You can just go somewhere else. Whose\Npolicies you like better and still talk to
Dialogue: 0,0:43:40.03,0:43:45.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,your Facebook friends.\NJ: Hmm. And as you just said activists and
Dialogue: 0,0:43:45.76,0:43:51.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,all the bad stuff. We have some more\Nquestions here. You also said
Dialogue: 0,0:43:51.32,0:43:59.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,something about that dividing and fracture\Nline before where workers were divided.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:59.36,0:44:10.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I have a question: Why do all those,\Nor most, or many left-wing communities
Dialogue: 0,0:44:10.06,0:44:16.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,split up about fundamental discussions\Nwhile right wing people just stick
Dialogue: 0,0:44:16.68,0:44:22.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,together and, yeah, try to to work\Ntogether for benefits?
Dialogue: 0,0:44:22.97,0:44:27.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,C D: Well, I think that I mean, it's\Nmultifaceted and that characterization is
Dialogue: 0,0:44:27.66,0:44:32.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not entirely true, right? You know, the\Nright wing movements do have really
Dialogue: 0,0:44:32.73,0:44:38.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,serious fracture lines. In Canada, our\Nconservative party was like many
Dialogue: 0,0:44:38.92,0:44:42.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,conservative parties. One of these\Nchimeras where you have, you know,
Dialogue: 0,0:44:42.58,0:44:47.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,wealthy people and social conservatives\Nand wealthy people say you vote for our
Dialogue: 0,0:44:47.35,0:44:51.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,tax breaks and we'll punish women who have\Nabortions and they fused this
Dialogue: 0,0:44:51.78,0:44:57.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,coalition. And in Canada, after the\NMulroney years - he was our Helmut Kohl
Dialogue: 0,0:44:57.75,0:45:03.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,equivalent - the conservatives were in\Nsuch bad odour that they pulled less than
Dialogue: 0,0:45:03.56,0:45:08.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,12 percent in the election, didn't qualify\Nfor free office space on Parliament Hill.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:08.31,0:45:12.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the party broke up and became two\Nparties, the Conservative Party and the
Dialogue: 0,0:45:12.17,0:45:18.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Reform Party. And hilariously, later on,\Nthey reformed and they were at this all
Dialogue: 0,0:45:18.73,0:45:23.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,party conference and the naming committee\Nwent into a closed room to figure out what
Dialogue: 0,0:45:23.42,0:45:26.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they were going to call the new party. And\Nthey came up with the Canadian
Dialogue: 0,0:45:26.07,0:45:31.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Conservative Reform Alliance Party - which\Nis CRAP. And no one noticed until after
Dialogue: 0,0:45:31.66,0:45:37.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the press release. But conservative\Nparties fracture all the time. They have
Dialogue: 0,0:45:37.40,0:45:41.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,really serious, grotesque fracture lines.\NThe Republican Party is in major
Dialogue: 0,0:45:41.75,0:45:45.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,disarray at the moment and will probably\Nbe in worse disarray after the election.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:45.97,0:45:52.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The run off in Georgia in January if they\Nlose control of the Senate because money
Dialogue: 0,0:45:52.42,0:45:55.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,talks and bullshit walks. If you don't\Ndeliver, if your program doesn't deliver
Dialogue: 0,0:45:55.34,0:46:00.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the majority that allows you to enact the\Nwider program, then you are discredited
Dialogue: 0,0:46:00.37,0:46:04.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and you lose your seat. I mean, the\NBritish Tories have undergone the same
Dialogue: 0,0:46:04.62,0:46:08.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,thing. That's what Brexit was. It was a\Nsplit in the British Tories. In terms of
Dialogue: 0,0:46:08.24,0:46:12.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the left, there are lots of reasons the\Nleft splinters. Some of it is what Freud
Dialogue: 0,0:46:12.15,0:46:15.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,called the narcissism of small\Ndifferences. You know, you call it free
Dialogue: 0,0:46:15.55,0:46:21.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,software, i call it open source. We can't\Nbe friends anymore. Some of it is
Dialogue: 0,0:46:21.65,0:46:27.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,legitimate differences, which, you know,\Nthere are real meaningful differences
Dialogue: 0,0:46:27.82,0:46:32.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,between, say, liberals in the left. And\Nthere are lots of places where they agree.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:32.78,0:46:36.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But there are irreconcilable differences.\NAnd when it comes to those breaking
Dialogue: 0,0:46:36.24,0:46:41.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,points, you just, the alliance is going to\Nfall apart, right? It may, it may -
Dialogue: 0,0:46:41.58,0:46:46.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,personal friendships may endure, but the\Nwider questions are going to drive it
Dialogue: 0,0:46:46.43,0:46:52.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,apart. And then I just watched a video\Nwith Boots Riley, you know, who is the guy
Dialogue: 0,0:46:52.35,0:46:58.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who made "Sorry to disturb you", he's a\Nrevolutionary rapper. And he talked about
Dialogue: 0,0:46:58.01,0:47:03.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the history of the protest movement in the\NUS and the trade union movement. And one
Dialogue: 0,0:47:03.55,0:47:07.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,thing that is really under reported,\Nincluding to my shame by me in the last
Dialogue: 0,0:47:07.29,0:47:11.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,nine months, is that the US had more\Nwildcat strikes than at any time since
Dialogue: 0,0:47:11.54,0:47:16.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the 1940s. Strikes where there wasn't a\Nunion, that it was unsanctioned and they
Dialogue: 0,0:47:16.17,0:47:21.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,were in support of the same issues as the\Nprotests that got all the coverage, Black
Dialogue: 0,0:47:21.60,0:47:28.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Lives Matter and so on. But they didn't\Ndraw the coverage. And Riley was on the
Dialogue: 0,0:47:28.32,0:47:35.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,show talking about the way that the left -\Nincluding the radical left in the US -
Dialogue: 0,0:47:35.61,0:47:41.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,moved from strikes to protests. Where the\Nprimary mechanism for enacting a program
Dialogue: 0,0:47:41.74,0:47:45.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of change was protests and not strikes.\NAnd he said that it came from the anti-
Dialogue: 0,0:47:45.63,0:47:51.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,communist witch hunts of the 1950s and 60s\Nand that the trade union movement - to
Dialogue: 0,0:47:51.38,0:47:58.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,avoid the penalty of being tarred as\Ncommunists by the witch hunters, by the
Dialogue: 0,0:47:58.25,0:48:04.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,McCarthy hearings, they backed away from\Nradical political agendas and they became
Dialogue: 0,0:48:04.36,0:48:10.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,effectively part of the establishment. And\Nthat the radical left split off and they
Dialogue: 0,0:48:10.44,0:48:17.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,declared that student movements were the\Nfuture of political, radical political
Dialogue: 0,0:48:17.33,0:48:22.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,change. And student movements, they can\Nhave symbolic strikes, but a student
Dialogue: 0,0:48:22.14,0:48:26.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,strike is not a strike in the way that\Nworkers strike is, right? A worker strike
Dialogue: 0,0:48:26.75,0:48:30.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is really fundamental. Like at its core, a\Nworker strike is the argument that who
Dialogue: 0,0:48:30.86,0:48:38.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,gets to decide how things get made and who\Ngets to own those things should be in a
Dialogue: 0,0:48:38.96,0:48:43.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,different set of hands, should be\Ndifferently organized. It is a
Dialogue: 0,0:48:43.40,0:48:50.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,foundationally different project than a\Nprotest. A protest is about what the
Dialogue: 0,0:48:50.08,0:48:57.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people in charge should do and a strike is\Nabout who should be in charge. And he says
Dialogue: 0,0:48:57.61,0:49:04.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that the legacy of that today is that we\Nfocus our energies on the outcomes of our
Dialogue: 0,0:49:04.78,0:49:10.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,political arrangements, which are\Nstructural racism, sexism, inequality and
Dialogue: 0,0:49:10.59,0:49:15.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so on. But we don't talk about the\Nunderlying structure anymore. We don't
Dialogue: 0,0:49:15.35,0:49:19.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,address the underlying structure. We may\Ntalk about it in our protest, but we don't
Dialogue: 0,0:49:19.22,0:49:26.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,address it with the most tried and true\Ndirect action tool we have for changing
Dialogue: 0,0:49:26.51,0:49:30.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,those structural arrangements, which is\Nstriking. And I, you know, I just listened
Dialogue: 0,0:49:30.95,0:49:34.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to that yesterday and I've been thinking\Nabout it ever since. And I think that it
Dialogue: 0,0:49:34.40,0:49:40.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,does reveal a really like, non-trivial\Ndistinction between different ways of
Dialogue: 0,0:49:40.56,0:49:45.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,looking at theories of change. And it's\Nnot that kind of cartoony, like Marxist
Dialogue: 0,0:49:45.86,0:49:49.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,can't care about class and everyone else,\Nand they're all white dudes. And then
Dialogue: 0,0:49:49.32,0:49:55.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,everyone else cares about gender and race.\NIt's about understanding how anti-
Dialogue: 0,0:49:55.57,0:49:59.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,communist witch hunts and how like a\Ndeliberate, like normative and political
Dialogue: 0,0:49:59.87,0:50:05.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,project to discredit a certain kind of - a\Ncertain ideology, changed the way that we
Dialogue: 0,0:50:05.52,0:50:12.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,talk about what our political aspirations\Nmight be. And it's a really important
Dialogue: 0,0:50:12.64,0:50:17.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,distinction. It really matters. I'm still\Ntrying to digest it. But, you know, I'm
Dialogue: 0,0:50:17.83,0:50:27.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,thinking about it ever since.\NJ: Hmm, we have, as we said just before we
Dialogue: 0,0:50:27.75,0:50:35.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,went online with the fireside chat here,\Nby the way. And I'm really happy that
Dialogue: 0,0:50:35.12,0:50:45.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we're exploring this, yeah, for us new\Nformat of a talk/chat. I'm really happy to
Dialogue: 0,0:50:45.51,0:50:51.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have people here in the room with us. So\Nthis will be for all the other fireside
Dialogue: 0,0:50:51.78,0:50:59.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,chat, another invitation to pop in and ask\Nyour questions directly and be here with
Dialogue: 0,0:50:59.70,0:51:07.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,us in the room. And we have people in the\Naudience who have a really big question
Dialogue: 0,0:51:07.97,0:51:19.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that probably all of us have. It's 2020\Nfor all of us and 2020 is somewhat
Dialogue: 0,0:51:19.32,0:51:31.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,demanding. And how do you manage? To not\Nget depressive over activism, so how can
Dialogue: 0,0:51:31.40,0:51:39.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you stay positive with all the stuff\Nhappening and all the opponents we face in
Dialogue: 0,0:51:39.04,0:51:43.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,activism?\NC D: Yeah, you know, I would lie if I said
Dialogue: 0,0:51:43.12,0:51:50.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I hadn't felt a lot of despair this year.\NI mean, lucky for me, the way that I cope
Dialogue: 0,0:51:50.17,0:51:56.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with stress is by working. So, you know,\Nit's not entirely great because when I
Dialogue: 0,0:51:56.33,0:52:02.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,work without balance, you know, when when\Nall you do is stick your face in your
Dialogue: 0,0:52:02.17,0:52:07.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,computer and work, then your emotional\Nhealth suffers and your physical health. I
Dialogue: 0,0:52:07.38,0:52:11.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have a chronic pain problem. And I hurt\Nmyself so badly a couple of weeks ago that
Dialogue: 0,0:52:11.25,0:52:15.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I was actually walking around on a cane.\NLiterally just from sitting too much and
Dialogue: 0,0:52:15.52,0:52:20.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,neglecting my physical welfare, not doing\Nthe self care that I need to manage my
Dialogue: 0,0:52:20.12,0:52:27.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,disability. So, you know, it's\Nnot been great for anyone. I, you know,
Dialogue: 0,0:52:27.09,0:52:32.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm working on this utopian novel right\Nnow, "The Lost Cause", which is a novel
Dialogue: 0,0:52:32.22,0:52:40.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,set after "Green New Deal" in which people\Nhave oriented themselves to the long
Dialogue: 0,0:52:40.62,0:52:46.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,project of dealing with climate change.\NAnd so that includes things like a
Dialogue: 0,0:52:46.18,0:52:51.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,300 year project to relocate all the\Nworld's cities 20 kilometers inland and
Dialogue: 0,0:52:51.93,0:52:56.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,really big structural changes to cope with\Nhundreds of millions of refugees that we
Dialogue: 0,0:52:56.01,0:53:02.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,know will come and orienting our work\Naround contingency plans for months at a
Dialogue: 0,0:53:02.57,0:53:08.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,time when you can't leave your house\Nbecause of wildfires. And it is
Dialogue: 0,0:53:08.76,0:53:13.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,indistinguishable from an environmental\Ndystopian novel, except for the fact that
Dialogue: 0,0:53:13.61,0:53:18.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the people in the book don't feel\Nhelpless. They know what's coming. They
Dialogue: 0,0:53:18.02,0:53:21.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,know they can't stop it, but they know\Nthat they can prepare for it. They can do
Dialogue: 0,0:53:21.81,0:53:27.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,stuff that will manage it. And so for me,\Nthat's like, you know, back to the theme
Dialogue: 0,0:53:27.20,0:53:31.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of my talk I just gave: Self-\Ndetermination, right. The ability to have
Dialogue: 0,0:53:31.24,0:53:39.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like a say in how this stuff works out to\Nknow which parts are parameterized and
Dialogue: 0,0:53:39.06,0:53:45.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which parts are set in stone. That is, I\Nthink, the thing that keeps at least some
Dialogue: 0,0:53:45.49,0:53:51.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people sane and dedicated and acting. And\Nso this is the upside of activism, right?
Dialogue: 0,0:53:51.78,0:53:56.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Is like doing something to try and make a\Ndifference may feel hopeless and
Dialogue: 0,0:53:56.83,0:54:03.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,exhausting, but try doing nothing to make\Na difference and to just be like tempest
Dialogue: 0,0:54:03.23,0:54:11.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,tossed, smashed around by the breaking\Ndown system, that's for me anyway, much,
Dialogue: 0,0:54:11.44,0:54:17.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,much harder and more stressful. And, you\Nknow, ultimately, like my view of the
Dialogue: 0,0:54:17.72,0:54:24.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,world is that we cannot operate a theory\Nof change like a novelist, we have to
Dialogue: 0,0:54:24.67,0:54:29.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,operate a theory of change, like a\Nprogrammer. So novelists, you know, posit
Dialogue: 0,0:54:29.65,0:54:35.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this like reductionist, simplified way of\Ngetting from A to Z where you have an
Dialogue: 0,0:54:35.98,0:54:38.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,ending, you have a beginning, and you work\Nout the steps to take you up a dramatic
Dialogue: 0,0:54:38.89,0:54:44.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,curve and then down and through your\Ndenouement, right? And programers, when
Dialogue: 0,0:54:44.51,0:54:51.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they work with, like, non-trivial data\Nsets, they know that the terrain is
Dialogue: 0,0:54:51.29,0:54:55.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,unknowably complex, that if you try to\Nenumerate the whole terrain and find an
Dialogue: 0,0:54:55.83,0:55:02.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,optimal path through it, the terrain would\Nhave like altered by the time you'd
Dialogue: 0,0:55:02.01,0:55:07.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,finished. And also the moment during which\Nyou want to do the job would have passed.
Dialogue: 0,0:55:07.65,0:55:13.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So you can't figure out how to get from A\Nto Z if you're writing code that you can't
Dialogue: 0,0:55:13.35,0:55:17.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,find the optimal way, the one true way,\Nthe best way. Instead, what you have to do
Dialogue: 0,0:55:17.47,0:55:24.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is hill climb, right. You have to like\Nascend a gradient towards a better future,
Dialogue: 0,0:55:24.95,0:55:28.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like the victory condition you're looking\Nfor. And you might end up stuck in a local
Dialogue: 0,0:55:28.23,0:55:31.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,maximum. You might have to do something\Nlike hill descent in order to do more hill
Dialogue: 0,0:55:31.98,0:55:38.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,climbing. But in order to get from from A\Nto Z in software, you assume that if you
Dialogue: 0,0:55:38.45,0:55:46.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,can ascend the gradient to a new area of\Nthe terrain, that from that new area, new
Dialogue: 0,0:55:46.70,0:55:51.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,terrain will be revealed that you can't\Nsee from where you are now and that the
Dialogue: 0,0:55:51.86,0:55:56.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,best way to map the territory is to\Ntraverse it, and that even if you have
Dialogue: 0,0:55:56.28,0:55:59.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,some reversals, even if you have to double\Nback on yourself to get all the way
Dialogue: 0,0:55:59.36,0:56:06.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,through it, you will still have done a\Nbetter job than if you had tried to do it
Dialogue: 0,0:56:06.22,0:56:11.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,perfectly all at once the way a novelist\Ndoes. And so whatever things look shitty
Dialogue: 0,0:56:11.03,0:56:17.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and scary I just say, like, if I can think\Nof one thing that I can do that improves
Dialogue: 0,0:56:17.19,0:56:24.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,my situation, that I will find myself in a\Nnew zone from which I might have new
Dialogue: 0,0:56:24.48,0:56:28.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,courses of action that I can't even\Nimagine now. And that's what keeps me
Dialogue: 0,0:56:28.57,0:56:32.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,going. It may not make me happy, but it's\Na reason to put one foot in front of the
Dialogue: 0,0:56:32.69,0:56:37.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,other.\NJ: Yeah, I think we all need that. We do
Dialogue: 0,0:56:37.83,0:56:44.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have two more questions in the chat or two\Nand a half, and we have like three minutes
Dialogue: 0,0:56:44.60,0:56:52.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,left. So can I can I get two short ones,\Nprobably? Ian you're first of them.
Dialogue: 0,0:56:52.63,0:57:01.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Ian: Hi - Hi, Cory. Thanks for your work.\NAmazing. I love it so much and I read all
Dialogue: 0,0:57:01.42,0:57:09.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of it whenever you post something new. I\Nwant to ask about the book "For the Win".
Dialogue: 0,0:57:09.50,0:57:14.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I love that much and it showed the\Nworld that games are actually a market, a
Dialogue: 0,0:57:14.25,0:57:19.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,big financial market, and the environment,\Nthe setting of the scene feels a bit like
Dialogue: 0,0:57:19.32,0:57:23.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there could be more stuff happening at the\Nend of the book, so it's a bit open. I
Dialogue: 0,0:57:23.10,0:57:28.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,don't want to spoil it to anyone, but it\Nfelt a bit like there could be more. What
Dialogue: 0,0:57:28.09,0:57:31.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,would it take for you to write a sequel to\N"For the Win"?
Dialogue: 0,0:57:31.46,0:57:36.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,C D: Well, you know, I wrote "For the Win"\Nwhen I was - as part of my reckoning with
Dialogue: 0,0:57:36.61,0:57:42.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,great financial crisis and also as part of\Nmy marriage; because I'm married to a
Dialogue: 0,0:57:42.60,0:57:50.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,former professional Quake player. And so I\N- she was at GDC when the first gold farmer came
Dialogue: 0,0:57:50.41,0:57:53.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,forward. And so gold farming was like a\Nthing that I was really interested in. I
Dialogue: 0,0:57:53.80,0:57:58.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was really interested in that burgeoning,\Nyou know, games economics world. Yanis
Dialogue: 0,0:57:58.27,0:58:05.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Varoufakis working for that Icelandic game\Ncompany and so on. But today, I'm far more
Dialogue: 0,0:58:05.38,0:58:10.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,interested in heterodox economics and\Nparticularly in modern monetary theory.
Dialogue: 0,0:58:10.68,0:58:14.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I think that if I were ever to revisit\Nthis, I don't know that I would. But it
Dialogue: 0,0:58:14.57,0:58:18.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,would be - what would be a really\Ninteresting way to revisit this would be
Dialogue: 0,0:58:18.24,0:58:24.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to to do an "MMT lens gold farming" novel.\NIan: Yes, please. Sounds great.
Dialogue: 0,0:58:24.35,0:58:31.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,J: OK, so we see a next novel coming up\Nthere. And we have one last question from
Dialogue: 0,0:58:31.41,0:58:36.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Caige please.\NCaige: Hi Cory, thank you for the talk,
Dialogue: 0,0:58:36.75,0:58:41.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,really great to have you here.\NSo, given everything that you've
Dialogue: 0,0:58:41.39,0:58:47.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,said about monopolies, massive unchecked\Ncorporate power and so forth: What is one
Dialogue: 0,0:58:47.07,0:58:51.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,realistic thing that we could all do to\Ncombat this that would actually have a
Dialogue: 0,0:58:51.40,0:58:56.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,significant impact and actually have a\Nsecond quick follow up on that: What's the
Dialogue: 0,0:58:56.31,0:58:58.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,one thing that truly brings you hope in\Nall of this?
Dialogue: 0,0:58:58.90,0:59:03.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,C D: Well, so the one realistic thing is\Nyou can't do anything individually. You
Dialogue: 0,0:59:03.97,0:59:07.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have to do it collectively. Right. So you\Nhave to find a political movement. And
Dialogue: 0,0:59:07.94,0:59:10.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this is this is my point about the right\Nand the left and different kinds of
Dialogue: 0,0:59:10.73,0:59:13.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,parties and so on. You have to find a\Npolitical movement that is orienting
Dialogue: 0,0:59:13.77,0:59:19.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,itself towards monopoly and towards\Ndealing with monopoly. You know, our
Dialogue: 0,0:59:19.87,0:59:24.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,policymakers are even the ones that\Nperceive a problem with monopoly, don't
Dialogue: 0,0:59:24.46,0:59:28.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,perceive the political will to do anything\Nabout it yet. You know, I debated Vestager
Dialogue: 0,0:59:28.99,0:59:35.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from the audience last year at Reboot and\Nin or not reboot - at re:publica in
Dialogue: 0,0:59:35.54,0:59:40.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Berlin, and she was like: "Oh, we can't do\Nbreakup's. They take 15 years and cost too
Dialogue: 0,0:59:40.03,0:59:47.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,much money". She needs to have political\Nand social movements who have her back,
Dialogue: 0,0:59:47.33,0:59:51.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who say: 15 years to break up Facebook\Nsounds good to me! Let's spend the money
Dialogue: 0,0:59:51.79,0:59:56.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,right and to get there, it's not an\Nindividual thing. It's a social thing. You
Dialogue: 0,0:59:56.93,1:00:02.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,know, it's being involved in a political\Nparty, in a political movement that is
Dialogue: 0,1:00:02.28,1:00:07.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,engaged with this. Larry Lessig talks\Nabout the world being regulated by code,
Dialogue: 0,1:00:07.01,1:00:10.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,norms, markets and law, right? So, you\Nknow, you can have this normative
Dialogue: 0,1:00:10.38,1:00:15.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,discussion with your friends. You can you\Ncan bring them along to the idea that, you
Dialogue: 0,1:00:15.09,1:00:19.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,know, all of their problems have a common\Norigin, that it's monopolies. If you have
Dialogue: 0,1:00:19.50,1:00:22.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a British friend who's local government\Ncollapsed last year because of
Dialogue: 0,1:00:22.52,1:00:25.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"Carillion", you can say, oh, yeah, the\Nbig four accounting firms which were
Dialogue: 0,1:00:25.91,1:00:29.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,allowed to buy all of their competitors\Nand merged with a bunch of consulting
Dialogue: 0,1:00:29.55,1:00:34.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,services, they audit the books of all\Nthese companies, including Wirecard. They
Dialogue: 0,1:00:34.64,1:00:38.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,forged the books for their customers and\Nallowed them to steal from us, right? So,
Dialogue: 0,1:00:38.48,1:00:42.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that's not a problem of corruption in the\Naccounting industry. That's a problem of
Dialogue: 0,1:00:42.18,1:00:46.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,monopoly. And then you can get involved\Nwith your party, with your social
Dialogue: 0,1:00:46.90,1:00:52.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,movement, if you're involved with, you\Nknow, with "netzpolitik" or if you're
Dialogue: 0,1:00:52.15,1:00:57.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,involved with "EFF" or if you're involved\Nwith "Quadrature", you can say, look: This
Dialogue: 0,1:00:57.40,1:01:01.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is my priority too. You know, at EFF we\Nhave an anti-monopoly group now that's
Dialogue: 0,1:01:01.43,1:01:06.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,been working for the last year and now\Nthat Anti-monopoly has come to Tech, you
Dialogue: 0,1:01:06.00,1:01:10.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,know, EEFs job is gonna be for the next\Nyears to come, it's gonna be making sure
Dialogue: 0,1:01:10.70,1:01:14.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that anti-monopolists understand the\Ntechnical dimension, that they don't
Dialogue: 0,1:01:14.81,1:01:18.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,inadvertently create more durable\Nmonopolies by fighting it. We need those
Dialogue: 0,1:01:18.08,1:01:24.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,technical experts. So, you know, like in\Nthe same way that the one thing that you
Dialogue: 0,1:01:24.07,1:01:28.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,can do about climate change is to find a\Npolitical party that cares about climate
Dialogue: 0,1:01:28.31,1:01:32.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,change and then demand that they take\Nmeaningful action. The one thing you can
Dialogue: 0,1:01:32.02,1:01:37.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,do about monopoly is to get involved with\Nanti-monopoly movements because your
Dialogue: 0,1:01:37.50,1:01:43.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,individual action isn't going to do enough\Nthere. It's it's too little. As to what
Dialogue: 0,1:01:43.06,1:01:48.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,gives me hope? I mean, the thing that\Ngives me hope is we have gone from anti-
Dialogue: 0,1:01:48.70,1:01:56.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,monopolism being like a fringe thing that\Nnobody cared about, and that was just
Dialogue: 0,1:01:56.45,1:02:02.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,laughable to it being central in like\Nliterally less than a year. Like a year
Dialogue: 0,1:02:02.35,1:02:09.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,ago, a year and a half ago, March 2019, I\Nstood on a stage in Berlin and argued with
Dialogue: 0,1:02:09.40,1:02:13.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Europe's top anti-trust enforcer about\Nwhether we would ever break up Facebook.
Dialogue: 0,1:02:13.41,1:02:18.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And she said we wouldn't. And she's the\Nmost powerful, most active, most take no-
Dialogue: 0,1:02:18.60,1:02:24.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,prisoners anti-trust enforcer in the world\Ntoday. We're ready to break up Facebook.
Dialogue: 0,1:02:24.30,1:02:29.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It might take a decade, but we went from\Nthis is impossible to let's get doing it
Dialogue: 0,1:02:29.58,1:02:33.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in less than a year or just over a year,\Nright? That is remarkable progress. It
Dialogue: 0,1:02:33.66,1:02:39.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,might seem slow, but like it's a doubling\Ncurve. You know, it's got momentum. Like,
Dialogue: 0,1:02:39.48,1:02:44.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,get behind it and push with whatever\Ngroup, with whatever organization you're
Dialogue: 0,1:02:44.89,1:02:49.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,involved with, push and push and push.\NWhat gives me hope? That's what gives me
Dialogue: 0,1:02:49.93,1:02:55.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,hope.\NJ: And this is a wonderful ending where
Dialogue: 0,1:02:55.38,1:03:01.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,unfortunately out of time. People saying\Nthey like this format. And I think we'll
Dialogue: 0,1:03:01.55,1:03:08.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,see a bit more of that over the rC3. And\NI'm really, really happy, Cory, that you
Dialogue: 0,1:03:08.76,1:03:16.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,were the first of our authors doing a\Nfireside chat and probably we'll have some
Dialogue: 0,1:03:16.29,1:03:20.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,progress on turning over publishing\Nindustry at some point.
Dialogue: 0,1:03:20.85,1:03:26.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,C D: So, for sure, and I have to say it is\Nan honor and a privilege, as always, to
Dialogue: 0,1:03:26.64,1:03:32.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,speak at CCC. And I'm really indebted\Nto you volunteers and the people who make
Dialogue: 0,1:03:32.33,1:03:38.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it happen every year. It's a remarkable\Nevent and I'm looking forward to actually
Dialogue: 0,1:03:38.27,1:03:44.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,seeing you folks in person again soon. I\Nhope I can come to Leipzig for an in-
Dialogue: 0,1:03:44.36,1:03:47.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,person one next year.\NJ: Yes, please. That would be really
Dialogue: 0,1:03:47.69,1:03:49.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,great. Thank you very much, Cory.
Dialogue: 0,1:03:49.79,1:03:53.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}rC3 postroll music{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,1:03:53.51,1:04:28.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Subtitles created by c3subtitles.de\Nin the year 2020. Join, and help us!