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rc3 preroll music
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Herald: All right, our next talk is Cory[br]Doctorow, who I think needs very little
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introduction in this situation. But for[br]those who don't know him: he's an
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activist, he's a science fiction[br]author, and I think he can be
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described as the King of Bloggers. [br]I remember him appearing on XKCD
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with a cape back in the good old days. [br]So, Cory, please take it away.
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Cory Doctorow: I don't know how I[br]feel about being a king, given
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given that I'm wearing a guillotine badge.
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Perhaps, like, party secretary.
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You have my permission to take my picture.
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So I'm going to I'm going to talk today [br]about technology and optimism
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and where it comes from [br]and where it needs to go.
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And I want to start by…
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well, I want to start by putting [br]on my slides. So let's do that.
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I want to start by busting a myth, [br]the myth of the blind techno optimist.
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You've probably encountered the story, [br]the story that, you know, once upon a time,
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there were a bunch o' nerds [br]who had discovered the Internet,
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and thought that if we just gave everyone[br]the Internet, everything would be fine.
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And that the only thing [br]that they needed to work on
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was making sure everyone got connected [br]and everything else would
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take care of itself. And now those idiots[br]have led us into this crazy, terrible,
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dystopian world. And why didn't they[br]foresee all this trouble? And the way that
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you know that this blind technological[br]optimism is a myth is that people don't go
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out and start organizations like the[br]Electronic Frontier Foundation because
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they think that everything is going to be[br]fine in the end. You know, if there's a
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motto that characterizes those early[br]technological optimists, it's not that
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everything is going to be great. It's that[br]everything will be great if we don't screw
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it up. And if we do screw it up, it's[br]going to be really, really terrible. Now,
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before computing was the source of regular[br]stock bubbles, it was just a passion. It
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was driven not by dreams of riches, but by[br]programmers who are able to make stuff
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happen. If you think about what the the[br]journey of a programmer is, it's that
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first you figure out how to express your[br]will with sufficient precision that your
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computer then enacts your will, [br]and enacts it tirelessly, perfectly…
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[stream lost]
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…computer is connected to a network, you
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can project your will around the world.[br]You can take the thing
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that you've built, this self executing [br]recipe, and you can give it to
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someone else, and they can execute it as[br]well. It's, and… But it's better than a
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recipe, right? You might have a recipe for[br]your grandmother's brownies. And when you
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send it to someone else, they still have[br]to follow the recipe. But a program is
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like a self executing recipe. It's like a[br]machine that just makes your grandmother's
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brownies appear in every household in the[br]world if they just download your code and
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run it. And of course, as you get on the[br]network and you find these people to share
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your code with, you're finding the people[br]as well. You're finding community…
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[stream lost]
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chimes
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Herald 2: But, well…
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chimes
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But not in, yeah, [br]that large scale, to be honest.
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Tried around quite a few things, [br]and had a little
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little online session for the Towel Day[br]and for all these things. We had the
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Easterhegg, the DiVOC, and yeah. We're[br]working on it to get the connection back.
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So, yeah.
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CD: …giant, fat, phonebook-sized…
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H2: OK, I can hear the voice[br]CD: …bill that they would get
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every month for all the things [br]that they did, and so they they
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they ran this whole system in the shadows.[br]And the last thing they wanted was for
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for what they were doing to come to[br]the attention of their bosses.
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And so they had a whole bunch of rules[br]about what you could and couldn't create.
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They especially didn't want any sex, [br]and they didn't want anyone
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explaining how to make bombs on Usenet.[br]And so there would be votes about
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what news, new newsgroup could be created.
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But every now & again, the backbone cabal,[br]which is what they called themselves…
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H2: So we do have a sound [br]of Mr. Doctorow here
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So I think it shouldn't, shouldn't[br]be too much of a of time until we get the
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stream back.[br]CD: …about cooking should go under the
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talk hierarchy, and[br]not under the rec hierarchy.
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And John Gilmore and other people who [br]were in his company decided to set up
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their own alternative version of Usenet [br]called the alt. hierarchy specifically
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to allow for a discussion of cooking [br]wherever the hell they wanted it.
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To exercise that little quantum of [br]self-determination. And very quickly,
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the alt. hierarchy grew until it was [br]larger than all of Usenet put together.
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So the worst nightmares of those early [br]digital activists have come to pass.
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We have total penetration of technology.
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There is centralization, surveillance, and[br]manipulation of all of our technology,
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everywhere. And the question that I think[br]is a valid one to ask is how were we dealt
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such a stinging defeat? How did it come to[br]pass that people who foresaw this danger,
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and worked to make things great and not[br]screw them up, still arrived at this
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moment where the Internet consists of five[br]giant websites filled with screenshots of
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text from the other four. That's a phrase[br]from Tom Eastman, a software developer
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in in New Zealand. And this is where I get[br]to my thesis about about what's just
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happened and what needs to happen next,[br]because there is a story about
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technologists that says that the blind[br]spot was dystopia, that technologists just
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failed to understand that all of this[br]stuff could go horribly wrong.
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And they really understood how[br]–whoops–
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They really understood [br]how wrong it could go. The
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The thing that technologists failed to[br]understand was the relationship of
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monopolism to technology and the economy[br]as it was emerging in the early days of
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the technology revolution. So if you think[br]about the early days of the commercial
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Internet and commercial technology,[br]personal computing and so on, it was very
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dynamic. Companies that were giants one[br]day ended up being acquired by upstarts
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the next day. And that dynamism was not[br]driven solely by technology, but also by
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US antitrust or anti-monopoly enforcers.[br]So I want you to think about what the
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experience of a kid in the United States[br]in the 1980s would have been like if
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you were using technology. So you might[br]have gotten your Apple II+ in say, 1980 or
0:09:04.611,0:09:11.910
1981. In 1982 the modem that came with it[br]could suddenly dial all kinds of services
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all around America at a fraction of the[br]cost that it used to run that because AT&T
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had been broken up, and long distance[br]charges fell through the floor. And then
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in 1984, you might have replaced that[br]Apple II+ with an IBM PC, but it's more
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likely that you might have replaced it[br]with an IBM PC clone. Whichever one you
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replaced it with, it was probably running[br]an operating system from this guy, the guy
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who wrote this letter. Bill Gates. The guy[br]who started this tiny little company
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called Microsoft. And the reason that the[br]IBM PC was running code from this little
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startup and not from IBM itself was not[br]because IBM didn't know how to write code.
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IBM was really good at writing code. They[br]were arguably too good at writing code.
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And for 12 years prior to the creation of[br]the PC, IBM had been in antitrust hell
0:10:04.320,0:10:09.131
with the Department of Justice in which[br]they were sued and sued and sued. And
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every year of that 12 year lawsuit, IBM[br]spent more on its lawyers than the entire
0:10:14.821,0:10:19.861
US Department of Justice spent on all the[br]lawyers pursuing all antitrust action. And
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one of the things that the Department of[br]Justice was really adamant about was that
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if you made hardware, you shouldn't try to[br]monopolize the software for it. And so
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even though eventually IBM prevailed–the[br]case was dropped against it–the last thing
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they wanted was to get in trouble with the[br]DOJ again. And so after this 12 year
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process, when they made their first PC,[br]they decided not to try and make the
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operating system for it. Instead, they[br]tapped Bill Gates to make an operating
0:10:45.870,0:10:50.916
system for it. And then Tom Jennings, the[br]guy who created FidoNet, which was the
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biggest competitor we had to Usenet. It[br]was a non-Internet-based distributed
0:10:55.210,0:10:59.850
message board system. Tom Jennings, who is[br]a virtuoso hardware engineer who lives a
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few kilometers from my home here in Los[br]Angeles, he was tapped by a company called
0:11:05.550,0:11:11.180
Phoenix that asked him to reverse engineer[br]IBM's ROMs, and he reverse engineered the
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PC ROM, produced a specification that was[br]used as the basis for a new clone ROM, and
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that clone ROM was sold to PC vendors all[br]over the world. And it's how we got
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Gateway, Dell, Compaq and all of the other[br]PC vendors that might have sold you that
0:11:27.370,0:11:33.540
IBM PC clone in 1984 running an operating[br]system that IBM hadn't made, on phone
0:11:33.540,0:11:39.709
lines that had been broken up from AT&T.[br]And then in 1992, you might have noticed
0:11:39.709,0:11:45.579
that that little company, Microsoft, had[br]grown to be a monopolist itself with 95%
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of the operating system market. And so in[br]came the Department of Justice, and the
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Department of Justice spent the next 7[br]years dragging Microsoft up and down that
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same gravel road that they had dragged IBM[br]up and down for 12 years. And even though
0:11:59.310,0:12:04.300
Microsoft got away, the way IBM had, their[br]behavior was tamed, too, because when a
0:12:04.300,0:12:10.009
couple of guys in a Stanford lab, Larry[br]and Sergei, named their new search engine
0:12:10.009,0:12:15.480
after the largest number they could think[br]of, a one followed by 100 zeros, a google,
0:12:15.480,0:12:20.310
Microsoft decided not to do to them what[br]they had done to Netscape because they had
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seen what the Department of Justice does[br]to you if you do that to your nascent
0:12:24.360,0:12:32.060
competitors. And so it felt in those days[br]like maybe we'd found some kind of perfect
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market, a market where you could make your[br]products with low capital, just with the
0:12:37.050,0:12:42.360
sweat of your own mind, by writing code.[br]That you could access the global audience
0:12:42.360,0:12:48.513
of everyone who might want to run that[br]code over a low cost universal network.
0:12:48.513,0:12:53.239
And that that audience could switch to[br]your product at a very low cost, because
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you could always write the code that it[br]would take to to port the old data formats
0:12:59.067,0:13:04.790
and to connect the old services to your[br]new product. It was a market where the
0:13:04.790,0:13:10.297
best ideas would turn into companies that[br]would find customers and change the world.
0:13:10.297,0:13:14.817
But what we didn't realize, what we were[br]naive about in those halcyon days of the
0:13:14.817,0:13:19.640
early Internet, was that antimonopoly law,[br]the antimonopoly law that had made things
0:13:19.640,0:13:24.930
so robust and dynamic that had given[br]everyone who who had access to a computer
0:13:24.930,0:13:30.279
a chance to try and make a dent in the[br]universe, that that antitrust law had been
0:13:30.279,0:13:35.676
shot in the guts in 1982, and was bleeding[br]out. And it's all thanks to this guy,
0:13:35.676,0:13:41.670
Robert Bork. Robert Bork is kind of an[br]obscure figure for for most people these
0:13:41.670,0:13:44.490
days. Although I said that on Twitter the[br]other day and a bunch of people in their
0:13:44.490,0:13:48.310
50s said, "Oh, I know who Robert Bork[br]is." But I think if you're not an American
0:13:48.310,0:13:51.990
in your 50s or a certain kind of weirdo[br]conservative activist, you've probably
0:13:51.990,0:13:56.970
never heard of this guy. Robert Bork was[br]Richard Nixon's solicitor general and he
0:13:56.970,0:14:02.319
committed crimes for Richard Nixon. And[br]they were so egregious that when Ronald
0:14:02.319,0:14:07.230
Reagan tried to appoint him to the US[br]Supreme Court, the Senate decided not to
0:14:07.230,0:14:12.529
confirm him because he was too grimy for[br]the US Supreme Court. And so instead, he
0:14:12.529,0:14:18.660
became a kind of court sorcerer to Ronald[br]Reagan and he created a new theory about
0:14:18.660,0:14:24.399
when monopoly laws should be enforced, a[br]theory he called the consumer harm theory.
0:14:24.399,0:14:29.770
The consumer harm theory says that we[br]don't hate monopolies because monopolies
0:14:29.770,0:14:35.140
are bad. We only hate monopolies because[br]they sometimes raise prices, and so long
0:14:35.140,0:14:39.930
as a company that has a monopoly isn't[br]immediately raising prices after they
0:14:39.930,0:14:44.940
acquire that monopoly, it's OK to let the[br]monopoly form and to let the monopoly
0:14:44.940,0:14:49.980
fester. And this idea was incredibly[br]popular, and not just with Ronald Reagan.
0:14:49.980,0:14:54.970
Every one of the neoliberal leaders of the[br]Reagan era, from Helmut Kohl to Margaret
0:14:54.970,0:15:01.713
Thatcher to Brian Mulroney to Augusto[br]Pinochet, took up the ideas of Robert Bork
0:15:01.713,0:15:05.748
and said that, from now on, we are not[br]going to get rid of our monopolies. From
0:15:05.748,0:15:09.400
now on, we're going to encourage the[br]growth of monopolies on the grounds that
0:15:09.400,0:15:14.470
they are efficient and only shut them down[br]if we can prove that they've used their
0:15:14.470,0:15:20.020
monopoly to raise prices. Now, this idea[br]is a stupid idea, but it's incredibly
0:15:20.020,0:15:23.579
popular for rich people, because rich[br]people like the idea that they could buy
0:15:23.579,0:15:28.000
shares in companies that could establish[br]monopolies. And those rich people funded
0:15:28.000,0:15:33.379
Robert Bork. They created, among [br]other things, a series of junkets called
0:15:33.379,0:15:36.064
The Manne Seminars. M-A-N-N-E
0:15:36.064,0:15:39.924
The Manne seminars are continuing [br]educational seminars for US
0:15:39.924,0:15:44.620
federal judges in Florida, where you fly[br]to Florida, stay in a luxury hotel, and
0:15:44.620,0:15:49.650
get lectured on the brilliance of Robert[br]Bork. 40% of US federal judges have been
0:15:49.650,0:15:53.500
through the Manne seminars.[br]Unsurprisingly, those judges are far less
0:15:53.500,0:15:59.750
likely to punish monopolistic conduct. The[br]people who like Robert Bork funded law
0:15:59.750,0:16:05.980
schools and economics departments and[br]journals. And they they turned the idea of
0:16:05.980,0:16:11.430
consumer harm into a kind of global[br]doctrine that has now taken over every
0:16:11.430,0:16:16.509
single regulator in the West. China has a[br]slightly different vision of it, as does
0:16:16.509,0:16:21.139
Russia. But the European Union, Canada,[br]the US, most of Central and South America
0:16:21.139,0:16:26.750
have all adopted these rules. I don't know[br]to what extent these rules have penetrated
0:16:26.750,0:16:33.180
the African markets. And so, and and and[br]consumer harm, this idea that monopolies
0:16:33.180,0:16:37.180
should only be shut down if you can show[br]that they're using monopolism to raise
0:16:37.180,0:16:41.209
prices, is incredibly hard to prove. In[br]fact, you could basically call it
0:16:41.209,0:16:45.880
impossible to prove. And as a result,[br]anti-competitive conduct became so
0:16:45.880,0:16:51.261
routine, that we no longer think of it as[br]unusual. Until the Bork era, here are some
0:16:51.261,0:16:55.040
of the things that were considered[br]violations of antitrust law and that would
0:16:55.040,0:17:00.860
have attracted scrutiny from a regulator:[br]merging with a major competitor, acquiring
0:17:00.860,0:17:05.439
a small competitor, or creating a vertical[br]monopoly where you own different parts of
0:17:05.439,0:17:11.700
the supply chain, like Google buying an ad[br]tech company. Now, the story of how tech
0:17:11.700,0:17:17.820
got monopolized leans hard not on Robert[br]Bork, but on all these exotic ideas like
0:17:17.820,0:17:22.330
network effects. The idea that if you if[br]you have one fax machine, it's useless and
0:17:22.330,0:17:26.870
two are very useful and three are twice as[br]useful and four is twice as useful again,
0:17:26.870,0:17:30.410
and that once a tech company starts to[br]become successful, the network effects
0:17:30.410,0:17:35.090
snowball and you will never dethrone it.[br]Despite the fact that we no longer have
0:17:35.090,0:17:41.810
Friendster or AltaVista or Amigas or any[br]of these other potential purveyors of
0:17:41.810,0:17:48.440
network effects. A close look at how tech[br]companies grew does not show that network
0:17:48.440,0:17:53.254
effects is what led to that growth.[br]Instead, you see predatory conduct.
0:17:53.254,0:17:58.470
Moneyball. Using access to the capital[br]markets to raise gigantic amounts of money
0:17:58.470,0:18:02.591
and buy or merge with all of your[br]competitors as the means by which they
0:18:02.591,0:18:06.618
grew. And as an example of this, I want[br]you to think about Google for a minute. So
0:18:06.618,0:18:10.198
Google is a company that has made exactly[br]one and a half successful in-house
0:18:10.198,0:18:14.494
products. They made a really good search[br]engine and a pretty good Hotmail clone.
0:18:14.494,0:18:20.100
Everything else that they've made in-house[br]died. This is just a small sample of the
0:18:20.100,0:18:23.135
Google product graveyard. And everything[br]that they've done that's
0:18:23.135,0:18:31.161
successful–Android, ad tech, YouTube, and[br]so on–all of these are companies that they
0:18:31.161,0:18:37.440
acquired from someone else. So this is not[br]a company that has a natural monopoly due
0:18:37.440,0:18:43.290
to a network effect. This is a company[br]that has an unnatural monopoly due to
0:18:43.290,0:18:48.913
predatory conduct. Now, network effects[br]are indeed real. They are a thing. And you
0:18:48.913,0:18:52.552
can see them exemplified pretty well with[br]the Bell System. This was what we called
0:18:52.552,0:18:58.609
AT&T in the US before it was broken up in[br]the 1980's. But with with net with tech,
0:18:58.609,0:19:02.259
network effects are very different from[br]other kinds of industries. You think of
0:19:02.259,0:19:07.631
the railroad industry where once you have[br]rails that run from one place to another,
0:19:07.631,0:19:13.690
it doesn't make any sense to to put in a[br]second set of rails. And so the custom
0:19:13.690,0:19:17.799
accrues to the rail vendor, which can add[br]more rails to more destinations. And
0:19:17.799,0:19:21.246
before long, you have these natural[br]monopolies emerging in rail. But that's
0:19:21.246,0:19:25.550
not how it works with technology. And the[br]reason is that technology has
0:19:25.550,0:19:31.410
interoperability. So built into our[br]general purpose computers and our general
0:19:31.410,0:19:36.350
purpose network is the ability to run any[br]program provided you can express it in
0:19:36.350,0:19:41.610
symbolic logic and to interface any new[br]network service with any existing network
0:19:41.610,0:19:45.299
service. Now, oftentimes that[br]interoperability is deliberate and
0:19:45.299,0:19:50.240
engineered. Someone will go to a standards[br]body like the W3C and decide on what an
0:19:50.240,0:19:55.972
HTTP header looks like. But just as often,[br]that interoperability is adversarial. That
0:19:55.972,0:20:01.360
interoperability is a form of competitive[br]compatibility, where a new company makes a
0:20:01.360,0:20:05.602
product that plugs into an existing[br]product or service without permission,
0:20:05.602,0:20:09.604
against the wishes of the people who made[br]the existing product or service. Like Tom
0:20:09.604,0:20:15.350
Jennings making his IBM PC ROMs. And what[br]happens then is that the walled garden of
0:20:15.350,0:20:19.690
the company that came before becomes a[br]feedlot in which all of the customers have
0:20:19.690,0:20:24.917
been handily penned in, so that the new[br]market entrant can go over and choose
0:20:24.917,0:20:30.190
whichever ones they want and devour them[br]in a smorgasbord. So to think about how
0:20:30.190,0:20:36.440
this worked with the Bell System, the Bell[br]System originally had not just a monopoly
0:20:36.440,0:20:41.156
over the wires, but a monopoly over the[br]things that connected to the wires. It was
0:20:41.156,0:20:47.720
against the law to connect a phone, or a[br]phone-like device, or even a thing that
0:20:47.720,0:20:52.940
clicked on to a phone, to a phone that[br]came from the Bell System or to a jack
0:20:52.940,0:20:57.636
that the Bell System had installed. And[br]they argued that because they were a
0:20:57.636,0:21:01.758
monopolist, they were part of America's[br]national security and safety apparatus,
0:21:01.758,0:21:06.150
and that allowing third parties to connect[br]things to their network would result in
0:21:06.150,0:21:10.217
the network being made unreliable and[br]therefore America being made insecure and
0:21:10.217,0:21:15.915
unsafe. But they didn't use this power[br]just to keep the network operational. They
0:21:15.915,0:21:20.420
used this power to extract monopoly rents,[br]to make money by screwing over their
0:21:20.420,0:21:25.460
customers, by preventing new market[br]entrants. So, for example, to see where
0:21:25.460,0:21:30.030
how bad this got, you can look at where it[br]broke down. The first time that this
0:21:30.030,0:21:34.971
system broke down was when AT&T sued a[br]competitor called Hush-A-Phone.
0:21:34.971,0:21:39.937
And Hush-A-Phone was a plastic cup that[br]snapped over the mouthpiece of your Bell
0:21:39.937,0:21:44.969
phone so that, when you were speaking,[br]your voice would be muffled, and people
0:21:44.969,0:21:49.249
who are in the same room as you would find[br]it hard to listen in on your conversation.
0:21:49.249,0:21:54.699
And AT&T argued that the Hush-A-Phone, [br]because it was mechanically coupled to the
0:21:54.699,0:21:59.170
Bell System, endangered the integrity of[br]the Bell System. And their regulator told
0:21:59.170,0:22:03.833
them to go pound sand. They said, no, this[br]doesn't endanger the system, get used to
0:22:03.833,0:22:06.860
it, people can connect things to their[br]phones. And that's when they lost
0:22:06.860,0:22:10.961
mechanical coupling prohibitions. And then[br]they went after another company called
0:22:10.961,0:22:16.980
Carterfone. And Carterfone made a walkie[br]talkie that plugged into a regular RJ11
0:22:16.980,0:22:21.790
jack that you could connect your phone to.[br]And it was for people who worked on
0:22:21.790,0:22:26.235
ranches and farms so that they could they[br]could clip a walkie talkie onto their belt
0:22:26.235,0:22:29.852
and go out and work in the barn or ride[br]out on the range, and still take their
0:22:29.852,0:22:35.930
phone calls. And AT&T argued that by[br]electrically coupling devices to the Bell
0:22:35.930,0:22:41.350
System that they were violating AT&T's[br]monopoly and endangering America. And
0:22:41.350,0:22:46.320
again, their regulator told them that that[br]was not a valid reason, and they lost the
0:22:46.320,0:22:49.820
ability to block electrical electrical[br]coupling. And this is where we see the
0:22:49.820,0:22:53.570
growth of everything from modems to[br]answering machines and all of the other
0:22:53.570,0:22:58.750
devices that eventually plugged into the[br]Bell System. So interoperability can turn
0:22:58.750,0:23:03.580
network effects on their head. And[br]interoperability was really key to the
0:23:03.580,0:23:05.667
growth of the tech monopolists today.
0:23:05.667,0:23:08.847
So think about the iWork suite [br]and its history
0:23:08.847,0:23:13.590
Before the iWork suite came about,[br]Apple was in really serious trouble
0:23:13.590,0:23:18.272
in enterprise networks. If you ran a[br]business, chances are most of the
0:23:18.272,0:23:23.336
computers in your network were PCs, but[br]maybe the designer or an executive who had
0:23:23.336,0:23:27.646
the right to decide what kind of computer[br]they would use was would be running a Mac.
0:23:27.646,0:23:33.650
And the way that that Microsoft punished[br]you for running that Macintosh in the
0:23:33.650,0:23:38.870
Microsoft environment was by dragging[br]their heels on updating the Microsoft
0:23:38.870,0:23:44.140
Office suite for the Mac. And so Macs[br]became this kind of cursed zone, where if
0:23:44.140,0:23:49.100
someone were to send a Word file or an[br]Excel file to a Mac, and that file was
0:23:49.100,0:23:53.240
then opened and saved again, it would[br]never be openable again on any computer
0:23:53.240,0:23:57.701
anywhere in the world. It would be[br]irretrievably corrupted. And Bill Gates
0:23:57.701,0:24:03.050
did not fix this because Steve Jobs went[br]to him and asked him pretty please to make
0:24:03.050,0:24:07.480
a better Microsoft Office suite for the[br]Mac. Instead, Steve Jobs got a bunch of
0:24:07.480,0:24:12.740
engineers to reverse engineer the the file[br]formats. And then they produced iWork,
0:24:12.740,0:24:18.571
whose Pages, Numbers and Keynote are used[br]to read and write Office files perfectly.
0:24:18.571,0:24:23.496
And very quickly, they were able to[br]colonize the Microsoft Office environment,
0:24:23.496,0:24:28.785
running ads like the Switch ads, where[br]they said, well, you may have hesitated to
0:24:28.785,0:24:33.589
give up your Windows PC because all of[br]your files are stuck in there.
0:24:33.589,0:24:37.255
But what if I told you that you could [br]read and write all the files ever
0:24:37.255,0:24:40.757
created with a Windows system, [br]and you could do it from a Mac
0:24:40.757,0:24:44.676
by running one piece of competitive [br]compatibility software, of software
0:24:44.676,0:24:48.463
that was adversarially interoperable [br]with the Microsoft ecosystem?
0:24:48.463,0:24:52.329
And that is what rescued the Mac [br]from the scrap heap of history.
0:24:52.329,0:24:57.160
And it wasn't just software, it[br]was also hardware. In the early 1990's
0:24:57.160,0:25:03.120
Lexmark was the–or rather the[br]late 1990s–Lexmark was the printer
0:25:03.120,0:25:09.310
division of IBM, the not very well[br]reformed monopolist, and Lexmark used
0:25:09.310,0:25:13.970
little microchips to stop people from[br]refilling their laser toner cartridges.
0:25:13.970,0:25:17.483
And a company called Static Controls, a[br]little Taiwanese company, reverse
0:25:17.483,0:25:21.834
engineered that microchip. It only held a[br]12 byte program, so it wasn't hard.
0:25:21.834,0:25:26.442
And they made new chips that would allow [br]you to refill your cartridge. Lexmark lost
0:25:26.442,0:25:30.710
their lawsuit against Static Controls. And[br]so now Static Controls had this huge
0:25:30.710,0:25:35.526
installed user base of people who are[br]desperate for cheap toner cartridges. And
0:25:35.526,0:25:39.790
instead of having a network advantage,[br]Lexmark now had a network disadvantage.
0:25:39.790,0:25:46.073
Today, Lexmark is a division of the[br]company that owns Static Controls.
0:25:46.073,0:25:51.990
And it's not, of course, hardware also. It's[br]also network services. When Facebook first
0:25:51.990,0:25:55.850
got off the ground, Mark Zuckerberg had a[br]really serious problem, which is that
0:25:55.850,0:26:00.304
everyone who wanted to use social media[br]already was on the dominant social media
0:26:00.304,0:26:04.469
platform, a company called MySpace that[br]was owned by the world's most rapacious,
0:26:04.469,0:26:09.652
vicious billionaire, Rupert Murdoch. And[br]again, Zuck did not go to Rupert and say,
0:26:09.652,0:26:14.042
please allow your users to talk to my[br]users because people want to use Facebook,
0:26:14.042,0:26:17.520
but they don't want to leave their friends[br]behind. Instead, what they did was they
0:26:17.520,0:26:22.285
made a bot and you give that bought your[br]login credentials, and it would go to
0:26:22.285,0:26:26.690
MySpace and scrape the waiting messages[br]that were there for you and put them in
0:26:26.690,0:26:28.884
your Facebook inbox, [br]and you could reply to them, and
0:26:28.884,0:26:32.124
it would pilot them back out to MySpace.
0:26:32.124,0:26:38.272
Now, all of this led to a very dynamic [br]system that completely changed the
0:26:38.272,0:26:42.540
way that we interacted with technology.[br]But all of this has gone the way of the
0:26:42.540,0:26:47.738
dodo. And the reason for that is that as[br]these companies acquired new monopolies,
0:26:47.738,0:26:54.505
they diverted their monopoly rents to[br]foreclosing on competitive compatibility.
0:26:54.505,0:27:01.322
So you may remember the urgent fight over[br]software patents. The growth of software
0:27:01.322,0:27:06.420
copyrights. The ongoing problem of anti-[br]circumvention rules that make it illegal
0:27:06.420,0:27:11.378
to break DRM, most recently seen in the[br]shutdown of youtube-dl.
0:27:11.378,0:27:13.794
Enforceable terms of service.
0:27:13.794,0:27:17.029
Facebook has just used its terms of [br]service to try and shut down
0:27:17.029,0:27:21.970
Ad Observatory, an academic project that[br]tracks Facebook's compliance with its own
0:27:21.970,0:27:27.230
policies on political paid disinformation.[br]And they've said that because this service
0:27:27.230,0:27:31.210
violates their terms of service, it's[br]illegal. Never mind that Facebook had to
0:27:31.210,0:27:34.550
violate MySpace's terms of service to gain[br]its ascendancy.
0:27:34.550,0:27:39.496
And then new rights that are purchased [br]with very expensive lawsuits.
0:27:39.496,0:27:42.782
So today we have the Google-Oracle lawsuit
0:27:42.782,0:27:46.050
going through the Supreme Court [br]in the United States. That might
0:27:46.050,0:27:52.394
create a new copyright over APIs. Now, all[br]of these things–patents, copyrights,
0:27:52.394,0:27:56.463
anti-circumvention, terms of service, [br]novel copyrights–they trade under the
0:27:56.463,0:28:02.311
name intellectual property. And if you're[br]familiar with the phrase intellectual
0:28:02.311,0:28:07.179
property, you'll know that free culture[br]activists hate this term. In fact, when
0:28:07.179,0:28:09.160
you ask them what we should call these[br]things…
0:28:09.160,0:28:12.327
Sorry, there's my software patents slide, [br]I knew I had one in there somewhere.
0:28:12.327,0:28:13.771
When you when you call it…
0:28:13.771,0:28:16.410
When you ask them what we should call[br]intellectual property, they say, oh, you
0:28:16.410,0:28:19.730
should call it the author's monopoly,[br]because that's what they called it in the
0:28:19.730,0:28:24.213
days of the Statute of Anne. That's what[br]they called it in the founding in the
0:28:24.213,0:28:29.960
United States, authors' monopolies. And[br]authors get really pissy when you say that
0:28:29.960,0:28:34.020
they have a monopoly. And they do for good[br]reason, because although formally the fact
0:28:34.020,0:28:37.950
that I wrote this speech and therefore I[br]have the monopoly over reading it to you
0:28:37.950,0:28:42.510
on my microphone means that I am a[br]monopolist, I don't have a market power
0:28:42.510,0:28:47.486
monopoly. Right? I can't use this monopoly[br]to extract monopoly rents from the
0:28:47.486,0:28:52.808
marketplace. Writers who go to the five[br]remaining publishers–soon to be four
0:28:52.808,0:28:56.395
if Bertelsmann buys out Simon and[br]Schuster–don't get to use the fact that
0:28:56.395,0:29:02.250
they have a monopoly to negotiate crazy[br]supermarket prices that go beyond what
0:29:02.250,0:29:07.400
what would happen in a competitive market.[br]Unlike, say, the the monopolists
0:29:07.400,0:29:11.030
themselves, the actual monopolists we have[br]who get to charge very high prices for
0:29:11.030,0:29:19.153
their services. And so it's it's not a bad[br]point that an author's monopoly is not a
0:29:19.153,0:29:22.502
monopoly in the way that we talk about it[br]when we talk about monopolism in the tech
0:29:22.502,0:29:29.435
sector. But IP does have a very precise[br]meaning, a meaning that is not…
0:29:29.435,0:29:35.280
has nothing to do with intellectualism or[br]property. IP in the sense of software
0:29:35.280,0:29:39.890
patents, copyrights, anti-circumvention,[br]terms of service, API copyrights, and so on
0:29:39.890,0:29:45.360
it has the precise meaning of any law[br]or rule that lets me decide who can
0:29:45.360,0:29:50.105
criticize me, who can compete with me, and[br]who and how my customers must behave
0:29:50.105,0:29:54.911
themselves. And when you fuse a market[br]power monopoly with an author's monopoly,
0:29:54.911,0:29:59.908
when you have a market power monopoly that[br]has IP behind it, you get something far
0:29:59.908,0:30:05.063
more durable than either a regular[br]monopoly or an author's monopoly,
0:30:05.063,0:30:09.389
a copyright monopoly. You get a monopoly[br]that the government will defend rather
0:30:09.389,0:30:15.452
than dismantling. So, for example, if you[br]have a monopoly that you can defend with a
0:30:15.452,0:30:20.787
patent, right, like today, you have HP[br]monopolizing it's ink cartridge market and
0:30:20.787,0:30:24.778
they have patents over the security chips[br]and their ink cartridges. The government
0:30:24.778,0:30:30.741
will seize compatible ink cartridges at[br]the border on your behalf for because they
0:30:30.741,0:30:35.740
violate your patents. And so instead of[br]punishing you for creating a monopoly, the
0:30:35.740,0:30:41.288
government will reward you by doing your[br]enforcement work for you. And not only
0:30:41.288,0:30:45.071
that, but once you have a monopoly[br]that's backed by some kinds of IP like
0:30:45.071,0:30:49.846
anti-circumvention, the government will[br]punish people who report defects in your
0:30:49.846,0:30:55.702
products. So if you have a monopoly over[br]printers or if you have a monopoly over
0:30:55.702,0:31:03.070
phones, and someone finds a defect that[br]allows third parties to install their own
0:31:03.070,0:31:08.690
ink or their own app stores, the[br]circumvention of your DRM becomes a crime
0:31:08.690,0:31:12.810
under Article 6 of the European Copyright[br]Directive, and under Section 1201 of the
0:31:12.810,0:31:16.711
Digital Millennium Copyright Act, and[br]under similar laws all around the world.
0:31:16.711,0:31:20.766
And the government will both fine and[br]potentially imprison the security
0:31:20.766,0:31:24.770
researchers who point out that your[br]products have a defect in them.
0:31:24.770,0:31:26.950
Now, I started this talk by saying that
0:31:26.950,0:31:30.625
early Internet boosters were not[br]blind to the perils of technology.
0:31:30.625,0:31:33.451
But some of them them were, a little.
0:31:33.451,0:31:36.203
After all, once all that [br]money started sloshing around,
0:31:36.203,0:31:38.560
then if you could convince yourself [br]that tech was an unforced
0:31:38.560,0:31:42.345
an unchecked force for good, then[br]you could also convince yourself
0:31:42.345,0:31:45.629
that getting all of that money [br]that the tech industry was generating
0:31:45.629,0:31:48.444
would make you on the side of good.
0:31:48.444,0:31:51.928
The myth of two guys in a garage [br]who could top a billion dollar giants
0:31:51.928,0:31:56.169
and become billionaires themselves,[br]fired a lot of techies' imaginations
0:31:56.169,0:31:59.092
and sidelined a lot of their conscience.
0:31:59.092,0:32:03.356
But those days are behind us, [br]thanks to monopolies.
0:32:03.356,0:32:08.220
Thanks to monopolies, founders[br]who want to start businesses that compete
0:32:08.220,0:32:14.230
with the monopolists, monopolists who have[br]double-digit growth every year, and who
0:32:14.230,0:32:19.333
realize tens, if not hundreds of billions[br]of dollars in profit collectively.
0:32:19.333,0:32:23.600
Those founders, when they go to a venture[br]capitalist or another funder, are told
0:32:23.600,0:32:28.340
that the funders aren't interested in[br]funding these direct competitors.
0:32:28.340,0:32:33.186
Funders call the lines of business that[br]big tech is in the kill zone, and they
0:32:33.186,0:32:37.240
understand that any attempt to fund a[br]business that operates in the kill zone
0:32:37.240,0:32:39.699
will result in your company being crushed
0:32:39.699,0:32:42.737
by the monopolistic power of [br]the entrenched company.
0:32:42.737,0:32:47.448
And so instead, if you are a[br]technologist headed to Silicon Valley,
0:32:47.448,0:32:52.300
you don't dream of changing the world. You[br]dream of like having a mini kitchen with
0:32:52.300,0:32:57.930
free kombucha and maybe getting massages[br]on Wednesday on the on behalf of the
0:32:57.930,0:33:03.430
company. And liberated from the fear of[br]losing customers to competitors, tech has
0:33:03.430,0:33:08.960
pivoted from liberating customers to[br]manipulating, locking in, and abusing
0:33:08.960,0:33:14.932
their users. And the code that does that[br]manipulation, that abuse and that lock-in?
0:33:14.932,0:33:18.713
It's all written by technologists.[br]Technologists who discovered their passion
0:33:18.713,0:33:23.190
for the field when they felt the thrill of[br]self-determination through writing code
0:33:23.190,0:33:27.624
and projecting it over networks. And this[br]is a really important fracture line.
0:33:27.624,0:33:31.670
I think this is a way to understand things[br]like the Googler Walkout and Tech Won't
0:33:31.670,0:33:35.970
Build It. No Tech for ICE. The solidarity[br]movements against facial recognition and
0:33:35.970,0:33:43.520
other surveillance technologies. That[br]technologists are no longer able to delude
0:33:43.520,0:33:49.130
themselves with the thrill of billions[br]into thinking that it's OK to do what
0:33:49.130,0:33:52.930
they've been doing. And one by one and in[br]increasing numbers, they're starting to
0:33:52.930,0:33:57.540
wake up to the fact that it's time to do[br]better. It's time to realize the
0:33:57.540,0:34:01.880
liberatory power of technology and step[br]back from the power of technology to
0:34:01.880,0:34:06.240
control us. That this will all be so great[br]if we don't screw it up and if we do screw
0:34:06.240,0:34:10.314
it up, it's going to be really, really[br]terrible. And there are precedents for
0:34:10.314,0:34:13.658
this. And unfortunately, the precedents[br]are pretty incomplete. So,
0:34:13.658,0:34:18.409
Robert Oppenheimer very famously was one[br]of the few people in the world who is both
0:34:18.409,0:34:22.000
brilliant enough at being a manager and[br]brilliant enough at being a nuclear
0:34:22.000,0:34:25.859
physicist that he could lead the creation[br]of the first nuclear bomb and the
0:34:25.859,0:34:31.179
Manhattan Project in Los Alamos in the[br]United States. And legendarily, as that
0:34:31.179,0:34:35.950
first nuclear bomb test went off, he[br]turned away from the mushroom cloud and
0:34:35.950,0:34:40.290
said, "I am become death destroyer of[br]worlds," and embarked on a lifelong
0:34:40.290,0:34:46.470
project to demilitarize the atom to to put[br]back in the bottle the genie that he had
0:34:46.470,0:34:53.940
made. And my hope is that we can arrive at[br]a world in which our Oppenheimers decide
0:34:53.940,0:34:59.289
to put down their tools before they make[br]their atom bombs instead of after. That,
0:34:59.289,0:35:04.100
that we are at this crossroads now where[br]not only are the harms so visible that
0:35:04.100,0:35:10.069
they're undeniable, but also that[br]rewards for building the digital
0:35:10.069,0:35:17.829
equivalent of these A-bombs have dwindled[br]from a star in technology's hall of fame
0:35:17.829,0:35:24.330
to a really well funded pension plan. And[br]surely that is not enough to sell out for.
0:35:24.330,0:35:29.332
So many of you listening today probably[br]read my novel Little Brother and its
0:35:29.332,0:35:34.410
sequel Homeland. I know that because I[br]often hear from you, especially at events
0:35:34.410,0:35:41.700
like CCC and DEFCON and at SchmooCon and[br]at THOTCON and so on. People come up to me
0:35:41.700,0:35:47.559
and they say, you know, I read your book[br]and I, I understood both how powerful
0:35:47.559,0:35:52.420
technology could be and how terrifying it[br]would be if that power was not harnessed
0:35:52.420,0:35:57.500
for the people and instead was harnessed[br]to oppress people. And it made me embark
0:35:57.500,0:36:01.670
on my career as a technologist, as a[br]security researcher, a human rights
0:36:01.670,0:36:06.490
activist, a cyber lawyer. And, you know,[br]that's the best thing in my life, really.
0:36:06.490,0:36:11.660
I mean, apart from my kid and my family.[br]The fact that there are people out there
0:36:11.660,0:36:15.000
who have devoted their lives to doing[br]something better because of something
0:36:15.000,0:36:18.099
I wrote, that's that's really important to[br]me. And frankly, you know, if my kid has
0:36:18.099,0:36:23.087
got a chance of growing up in a world that[br]doesn't make Orwell look like an optimist,
0:36:23.087,0:36:26.027
it's going to be in part [br]because of that stuff.
0:36:26.027,0:36:28.769
But I've written a new Little Brother book.
0:36:28.769,0:36:32.115
I wrote this book that came out [br]this year called Attack Surface.
0:36:32.115,0:36:36.052
And this is genuinely not an ad. You don't[br]have to read it. And in fact, if you're
0:36:36.052,0:36:39.906
watching this, you probably don't need to,[br]although you might enjoy it. Because this
0:36:39.906,0:36:45.559
is aimed at a different kind of[br]technologist. This is a story about the
0:36:45.559,0:36:51.410
kind of technologist who spends their[br]whole life kidding themselves that working
0:36:51.410,0:36:55.550
on systems of control and oppression are[br]not that big a deal, because if they
0:36:55.550,0:36:58.930
didn't do it, someone else would do it.[br]There's an endless supply of
0:36:58.930,0:37:03.390
Oppenheimers, and if I turn my back,[br]someone else will be there to to finish my
0:37:03.390,0:37:10.259
work. Who come to a realization, maybe[br]belated, that they've spent their whole
0:37:10.259,0:37:14.711
life building a dystopia that they don't[br]want to live in. And who redeem
0:37:14.711,0:37:20.539
themselves, who come back from the brink.[br]And the reason I wrote this story now is
0:37:20.539,0:37:26.950
because I really wanted to reach the[br]technologists who are waking up every day
0:37:26.950,0:37:31.530
and saying I fell in love with this stuff[br]because it liberated me. And I spend my
0:37:31.530,0:37:35.920
days figuring out how to take away the[br]future of people who might be liberated by
0:37:35.920,0:37:41.390
it themselves. And that's an urgent[br]message, because author's
0:37:41.390,0:37:47.493
monopolies–IP–are available to everyone[br]thanks to the Internet of Things,
0:37:47.493,0:37:49.808
thanks to our embedded systems.
0:37:49.808,0:37:53.186
I'm going to break here [br]and editorialize very briefly.
0:37:53.186,0:37:58.599
This is the slide I'm most proud of, not[br]not for any kind of intellectual heft, but
0:37:58.599,0:38:02.670
I'm really bad at the GIMP, and I think I[br]did a really good job. So I just want to,
0:38:02.670,0:38:05.670
if you're if you're looking away from your[br]screen, if you're like peeling vegetables
0:38:05.670,0:38:10.059
or something, spare a glance at this[br]slide. I'm very happy with this slide.
0:38:10.059,0:38:18.229
So the IoT means that every device in our[br]world has access to an author's monopoly,
0:38:18.229,0:38:25.956
has IP in it. And that governments will[br]enforce the strictures that the designers
0:38:25.956,0:38:31.055
and manufacturers of these devices put[br]into them by punishing people who try to
0:38:31.055,0:38:37.461
use competitive compatibility to undo[br]those strictures. And not only that, but
0:38:37.461,0:38:44.670
IoT devices are not merely smart as a[br]convenience to invoke the law.
0:38:44.670,0:38:49.654
They're also smart as a way to enforce the[br]manufacturer's desires, as a way to
0:38:49.654,0:38:57.790
control the the actions of users, of[br]competitors, and of critics. That
0:38:57.790,0:39:03.645
these devices have a kind of unblinking eye[br]that watches you whenever you use them.
0:39:03.645,0:39:05.614
And if it catches you [br]trying to do something
0:39:05.614,0:39:08.140
that might displease[br]the manufacturer's shareholders,
0:39:08.140,0:39:11.458
it can stop you,[br]and it can rat you out to the authorities.
0:39:11.458,0:39:14.757
And so, you know, speaking in my [br]professional capacity
0:39:14.757,0:39:18.701
as a dystopian science fiction writer, [br]this scares the shit out of me.
0:39:18.701,0:39:22.349
Now, that is all a kind of grim way to end.
0:39:22.349,0:39:27.684
And so I'm going to finish this off with a[br]couple of words on what gives me hope. And
0:39:27.684,0:39:33.189
this comes from my colleague James Boyle[br]at the Duke Center for the Public Domain.
0:39:33.189,0:39:37.683
And Jamie, when he talks about[br]the computer liberation movement,
0:39:37.683,0:39:40.497
he compares it to the ecology movement.
0:39:40.497,0:39:44.958
And before the term ecology was coined,[br]we didn't have a movement.
0:39:44.958,0:39:48.812
We just had a bunch of issues.[br]Some people cared about whales,
0:39:48.812,0:39:52.372
some people cared about owls, [br]some people cared about the ozone layer.
0:39:52.372,0:39:55.021
And maybe they thought that the people [br]who cared about another issue
0:39:55.021,0:39:57.900
were doing important work,[br]but it wasn't their work.
0:39:57.900,0:40:01.734
And they weren't really on the same side. [br]They weren't part of the same cause.
0:40:01.734,0:40:06.440
But the term ecology changed all of that.[br]The term ecology took a thousand issues
0:40:06.440,0:40:12.339
and turned it into one movement; [br]one movement that everyone had
0:40:12.339,0:40:16.601
each other's back on. Even if the reason[br]you were in the movement was owls,
0:40:16.601,0:40:20.060
you were there to fight the corner of the[br]people who cared about the ozone layer.
0:40:20.060,0:40:24.373
And you began to understand that these[br]were all facets of the same problem.
0:40:24.373,0:40:26.559
Well, today, monopolies have taken over
0:40:26.559,0:40:30.195
and destroyed the lives of people[br]in a million ways.
0:40:30.195,0:40:30.746
Right?
0:40:30.746,0:40:34.570
Whether you're a professional wrestling [br]fan, a beer drinker, a whiskey drinker,
0:40:34.570,0:40:40.470
an eyeglass-wearer, a plane-flyer-in, [br]someone who relies on energy or
0:40:40.470,0:40:45.420
financial services or whose money was[br]stolen by a company whose auditors were
0:40:45.420,0:40:49.809
one of the big four accounting firms.[br]Whether you are someone who is upset
0:40:49.809,0:40:56.009
because there's four movie studios left or[br]three record labels or because there's
0:40:56.009,0:40:59.680
only one movie theater left in the United[br]States… one movie theater chain of any
0:40:59.680,0:41:02.961
size left in the United States. Or whether[br]you're pissed off that you're not going to
0:41:02.961,0:41:07.706
get the vaccine, because in the US there's[br]only one company that makes glass bottles
0:41:07.706,0:41:14.009
of any size. All of these people don't[br]know it, but they're in the same side.
0:41:14.009,0:41:18.261
They're on the same fight. And that fight[br]is the fight against monopolies.
0:41:18.261,0:41:23.454
Now, people talk about big tech [br]as though they're super geniuses.
0:41:23.454,0:41:27.213
But when we rip off the mask, [br]we discover that
0:41:27.213,0:41:31.322
these are not titans who built monopolies [br]through their special genius.
0:41:31.322,0:41:33.931
They're just three [br]sociopaths in a trench coat.
0:41:33.931,0:41:37.318
They're just the latest version [br]of the kind of monopolist
0:41:37.318,0:41:40.757
that we have been fighting [br]since time immemorial,
0:41:40.757,0:41:43.572
since the Rockefellers, [br]since the Mellons,
0:41:43.572,0:41:47.797
since every monopolistic family that[br]tried to establish a dynasty
0:41:47.797,0:41:50.503
that would allow them to rule [br]as though they were kings
0:41:50.503,0:41:55.088
was broken up and relegated to just having[br]their names on a couple of buildings.
0:41:55.088,0:41:58.391
We know how to deal with these people,[br]and it's time that we dealt with them
0:41:58.391,0:42:03.391
for what they are, which is [br]just plain, old fashioned sociopaths
0:42:03.391,0:42:07.397
and not as super geniuses who [br]stand astride the world like colossi.
0:42:07.397,0:42:11.809
Thank you.
0:42:11.809,0:42:19.430
H: Thank, thank you. I think I'm back now.[br]All right, well, thanks for this talk. We
0:42:19.430,0:42:23.540
are basically out of time, so we're moving[br]the Q&A to the fireside chat, which will
0:42:23.540,0:42:28.520
happen in, I think, 20 minutes or so. And[br]then all the questions that have already
0:42:28.520,0:42:31.000
been asked for this talk [br]will also be answered then.
0:42:31.000,0:42:36.411
But Cory, I think we had a short[br]stream outage around minute 5.
0:42:36.411,0:42:37.282
CD: OK.
0:42:37.282,0:42:41.047
H: So if you know what you said at minute 5[br]CD: Oh that was the full frontal nudity!
0:42:41.047,0:42:43.027
CD: laughter[br]H: You can maybe try to,
0:42:43.027,0:42:45.959
H: try to recapitulate it.[br]CD: I don't know what I said…
0:42:45.959,0:42:48.380
CD: minute 5…[br]H: History of networks apparently.
0:42:48.380,0:42:51.579
Unfortunately, it was not visible for us.[br]So I don't know myself, but I think
0:42:51.579,0:42:53.886
H: it was the history of networks.[br]CD: Probably it was my story about, it
0:42:53.886,0:42:57.809
it might have been my story about the [br]alt. hierarchy. That's probably it.
0:42:57.809,0:43:01.740
And and if you if you go to [br]your favorite search engine,
0:43:01.740,0:43:04.467
whether it's like, [br]AltaVista or Ask Jeeves or Yahoo,
0:43:04.467,0:43:08.327
and type in:[br]alt.interoperability.adversarial
0:43:08.327,0:43:11.335
you'll find an article I wrote for [br]the Electronic Frontier Foundation
0:43:11.335,0:43:13.761
about the history of the alt. hierarchy.
0:43:13.761,0:43:16.549
So I think that's probably [br]what got cut out.
0:43:16.549,0:43:18.852
H: OK, wonderful. Thank you.
0:43:18.852,0:43:22.061
H: I think people know how to use Google.[br]CD: I think Lycos has also indexed it.
0:43:22.061,0:43:25.809
H: Yes. They'll try to they'll try to figure it out.
0:43:25.809,0:43:28.999
H: All right. Well, thank you very much.[br]CD: Thank you!
0:43:28.999,0:43:30.999
H: Good luck & see you soon[br]CD: I'll see you guys in the fireside chat.
0:43:30.999,0:43:31.999
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0:43:31.999,0:44:12.000
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