1 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Ellery Roberts Biddle [mid-sentence]: ...Our weekly video hangout series! 2 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I think - let's see, we started a little bit off time 3 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 so I'll say it again: 4 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Ellery: Welcome to GV Face, our weekly video hangout series! 5 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Today, we are celebrating the 25th birthday of the world wide web. 6 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Pretty exciting. That was on Wednesday. 7 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Um, we've got a really all-star lineup of guests 8 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 on today's program. 9 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Um, moving from left to right, we have: 10 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Alan Emtage, a very special guest who is 11 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 gonna talk to us about his very special creation 12 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 of, uh, the first web browser... 13 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Um! We have Jeremy Clark, in Montreal - 14 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Jeremy is a technical director at Global Voices. 15 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Josh Levy, from Free Press, 16 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 in Massachusetts, in the U.S. 17 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and Renata Avila, campaign manager for the Web We Want 18 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Creative Commons extraordinaire, and 19 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 GV star, who is joining us from Berlin! 20 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Welcome, everybody! 21 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Um. So we wanted to start today's show 22 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 by talking a little bit about the world wide web 23 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and the internet. 24 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 'Cuz a lot of people think that they're the same thing 25 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 when actually, that's not quite true. 26 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I want to first turn to Jeremy 27 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and just ask, Jer, could you 28 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 break it down for us, like, 29 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I thought that the internet was invented in the 70's 30 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 but, if it's the 25th birthday of the web, 31 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 what does that mean? 32 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Jeremy Clark: Okay, well, the 33 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 best place to start, I think, is 34 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the internet - it has existed in various formats 35 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 since the 1970's, as you said, 36 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 but it was the web that really made it 37 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 enter our homes. 38 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and, so, understanding the relationship is important. 39 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So, the internet was invented by 40 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the U.S. Government in a lot of senses... 41 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 ...a mix of military and science funding 42 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that developed the network of actual computers 43 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that can communicate with each other over 44 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 wires. 45 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Now, another related technology that is also compri-- 46 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 [amends] uh, built in to the web 47 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 is called hypertext. And that is the notion 48 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 of documents that can link between each other 49 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 immediately, without having to go and fetch 50 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 a separate document. Um. 51 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So there were lots of systems since the 1960s 52 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that were trying to implement hypertext, like, 53 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Xanadu is an example, 54 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 uh, but all of them were commercial, expensive, closed, 55 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and none of them were very popular. 56 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So, Tim Berners-Lee, who is the "inventor of the internet," 57 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 [corrects himself] of the web, obviously, the World Wide Web - 58 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Um. [Tim Berners-Lee] put those two things together 59 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 by building a service that runs 60 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 on top of the internet, and he 61 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 called it the World Wide Web. 62 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So what the World Wide Web is, is the 63 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 decentralized hypertext engine 64 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that we use to communicate between 65 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 computers' web pages. 66 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So what makes up WEB is three things: 67 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 URLs (or URIs) - Universal Resource Locator 68 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 which are the addresses we use to find things on the web, 69 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 [#2] HTML, which is the 70 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 HyperText Markup Lanuage 71 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 which is the way that the information 72 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 is stored and sent 73 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 so that we can then use browsers 74 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to view HTML, and then 75 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 all the documents can be understood 76 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and then also they display the links 77 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 so that the hypertext part of it works 78 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and we can jump around from page to page. 79 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Um, the final part is HTTP, which is 80 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the HyperText Transfer Protocol 81 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 which is the communication method 82 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 by which the different computers can 83 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 talk to each other and send the 84 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 HTML documents back and forth 85 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 depending on the URLs. 86 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Um. So, when he built it, there were some 87 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 very important things that he built into this system 88 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that didn't exist before. 89 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And the main one is 90 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 universal authorship. 91 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So he always intended that anyone would be able 92 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to access these webpages, 93 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and anyone would be able to 94 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 add their own webpages, without 95 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 asking for permission. 96 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 With the very explicit special condition 97 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that anyone can link to any other webpage 98 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 without permission. 99 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Previous hypertext systems required that 100 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 basically, for you to link to me, 101 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I have to accept that link, and 102 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 probably create a link back to you, and 103 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that wasn't required on the Web, which 104 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 gives us a lot of freedom to link to people 105 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 who wouldn't want us to be able to link to them, for example, 106 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 so no one can say "I'm putting up free content..." 107 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 "...but you can't send your readers here, because I hate you," et cetera. 108 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 The other one is that he made it completely, completely free. 109 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So in the world of inter--[fumbles for words]--programming 110 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the most free thing is generally considered 111 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to be the GPL [General Public License]: open-source, free software licenses. 112 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 uh, and Tim Berners-Lee actually almost used 113 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the GPL, because he wanted the web software 114 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 he was building to be free. 115 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 But at the last minute he actually changed his mind 116 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and made it full public domain, because in certain ways 117 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the GPL is actually more restrictive, because it 118 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 forces other people - like, certain commercial actors 119 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 wouldn't have wanted to use web technology 120 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 if it were GPL, so he made it full public domain, 121 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and then from there went on to make all of the standards 122 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 as open and, uh, general and free as possible. 123 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Uh. So that's my extremely brief history of the internet. 124 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 If anyone is curious, he wrote a wonderful book 125 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 called "Weaving the Web" about his experiences 126 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 [enticing tone] As you can see, it's short! 127 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And he has lots of interesting technical information 128 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 in it, without being overwhelming. 129 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It's very approachable 130 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and he's a really interesting person 131 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and it - the book is much better than his tweets, 132 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 which are usually incoherent. 133 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 [one of the participants huffs out a "whew"] 134 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Ellery: Ouch! Jeremy [?]: A few minutes? 135 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Ellery: Thanks, that was - that was great, Jer! 136 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Ellery: I mean, I think that that helps 137 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 um, in conversations about internet policy, 138 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and internet governance, there's a lot of emphasis 139 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 on the ability to kind of create and innovate 140 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 without permission? Like, for every 141 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to be able to build parts of the web, and 142 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 what you just laid out for us makes it clear 143 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 how important the Web piece of the infrastructure is 144 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 for that, for that capacity to become 145 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 a real tangible thing, and somebody that - [amends] something that now 146 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 we can do - we don't have to have 147 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 technical expertise to kind of build our own spaces there. 148 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Ellery: Um. So, I wanted to - Jeremy: So um. 149 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Jeremy: If I could add just one more thing, sorry - 150 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Jeremy: I just wanted to give a couple examples 151 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 of things that happen over the internet 152 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that aren't the web, 153 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 because that was the actual initial question. 154 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So, one example would be torrents, 155 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 where you're the - two computers connect to each other, 156 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and stream information directly, without any URLs 157 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 being mixed into the process. 158 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Um, another one is - email, at its core, 159 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 is its own communication protocol 160 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that doesn't have to use the web, 161 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 although we often use web sites to access and manage our email. 162 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Umm. And then another one was the one right before the Web came out, 163 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 a very popular protocol was called Gopher, 164 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 which people liked, and sort of worked like the Web 165 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - you surf around and find things - 166 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 but it actually became commercial right around the time that the web came out, 167 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 so people would've had to start paying, 168 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and instead of starting to pay, 169 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 they switched to HTTP, HTML, and the World Wide Web. 170 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Ellery: Thank you. 171 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Ellery: So I want to move to Alan, now... Um, 172 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Alan built the first search engine. 173 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And I'm kind of... like, overwhelmed, and feel sort of 174 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 like, giddy and nervous having him here. 175 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Ellery: This is just - [Alan laughs] 176 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Ellery: This is, like, a really big deal! 177 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Ellery: So, Alan, just - if you could tell us - 178 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 'cuz I think a lot of people don't know about Archie - 179 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 um, it would be really cool just to hear 180 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 about how you sort of - what you were doing 181 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that made you decide to, to do this 182 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and kinda what it was like, and then, I mean, everything you've seen since... 183 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Unfortunately we're time limited, but... 184 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Alan: Right. Ellery: You know. 185 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Alan [coughs]: Well, um, uh, well, that was back in 186 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 1989, and, I was working as a system administrator 187 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 for uh, McGill University - I was a grad student 188 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 for McGill University - and um, I was responsible 189 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 for getting software for - one of my responsibilities 190 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 was getting software for the faculty and the students. 191 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And at the time, the three major protocols on the internet 192 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - this was pre Web, ummm - 193 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 was, uh, Telnet, which would allow you to log in 194 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to a remote machine. 195 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Email, ah, which would allow you to communicate 196 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 ah, with another - as we do now, with a, with a 197 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 remote machines, plural, 198 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and, and FTP, which was the File Transfer Protocol, 199 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 which allowed you to move, ah, data files, or files 200 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 from one machine to another. 201 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And at the time what we had was - people had made 202 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - remember it was a non-commercial internet at the time - 203 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - actually, commercial traffic was forbidden on the internet at the time, 204 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 because it was run by the National Science Foundation 205 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and it was using educational money 206 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and therefore other than companies with 207 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 research arms, like IBM and HP and those kinds of things, 208 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 we didn't have any commercial traffic on the internet, 209 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 which nowadays seems kind of amazing to even think about - 210 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and, ah, so what people did, were to provide 211 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to provide free space on their machines 212 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - and remember, you know, at the time, 213 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 a big disc would be a megabyte, you know - 214 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and so people would provide common repositories 215 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that you could deposit programs that you had written 216 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 datafiles, and documents, and that kinda stuff. 217 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 into these central repositories that were 218 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 spread around the internet. 219 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Then other people could then retrieve them. 220 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And so I spent a lot of my time trying to locate 221 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 software, or the information that my, the students and the faculty were trying to find, 222 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and I got tired of it. 223 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and since I'm lazy and a geek, I... 224 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I automated the process. 225 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I got - instead of doing it manually, I had a bunch 226 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 of scripts wake up in the middle of the night every night, 227 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and go out and index files. 228 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Now remember all of this was just file listings. 229 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It's not like Google, it's not like a search engine would be today, 230 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 it is just... filenames. All it was, was filenames. 231 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And so what it would do 232 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 was it would go out every night, 233 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 list all the filenames in all the repositories, 234 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and allow you to search lists of filenames. 235 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And I only used it for myself! 236 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I only used it, um, uh, for my own personal use. 237 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Um, and at one point my boss, 238 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 who was also a student, a grad student 239 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 at the University, let Peter Deutsch let it be known 240 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that, um, somebody was asking for, you know, 241 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 could they, could somebody tell them where, um, 242 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 y'know, a particular piece of software was. 243 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And, uh, uh, we, um, uh... we, you know, 244 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 he came and asked me, he knew we had this database 245 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and he came and asked me if I could help out. 246 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And I gave it to him, and if, y'know, 247 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 half a sec- half a minute later I had the information, 248 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and so he put this posting online, and, umm. 249 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 People then started asking, 250 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 "Well, can you find this for me?" 251 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And, you know, all these manual requests! 252 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Basically - either through email, or UseNet postings - 253 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - which is what we were using at the time - 254 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 we thought, this is silly, 255 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 there's no point doing these things manually 256 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 when we can just allow people access to the database itself. 257 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And in a moment of insanity, 258 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 we had to come up with a name for it, 259 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and I said, "Okay, well, let's just call it ARCHI," 260 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 which is "ARCHIVE" without the V 261 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And, ah, and within about three or four months 262 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 we were consuming about half 263 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 of all of the traffic to eastern Canada [where McGill University is] 264 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 as this search engine became - as people, y'know - 265 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - word of mouth - 266 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 you know, people who know about Archie 267 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 are generally people of a certain age... 268 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 ...I won't mention what that age is, but 269 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 it's generally people who were in university 270 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 or working on the internet, so it would have been 271 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 so it would have been research people, 272 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 people in academia in the early nineties. 273 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So Archie lasted for about, uh, [hems and haws] 274 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Five years. Four or five years. 275 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And, um, it only indexed FTP archives. 276 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It never indexed the web. 277 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Now, I went on, as Archie became popular, 278 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and I got more involved in the standards process 279 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and that kind of stuff, 280 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I worked, uh, fairly closely with Tim Berners-Lee 281 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to, uh, to standardize - for example, 282 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I did the - I ran the committee 283 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 at the standard-setting body for the internet, 284 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 which is the IETF [Internet Engineering Task Force] 285 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to standardize URLs. 286 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Because Tim had come up with 287 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 a set of rules for URLS, 288 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and as we looked at expanding that 289 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to a larger range of resources, 290 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 we realized that those rules did not cover 291 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 all of the cases. 292 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So, we worked, for, uh - Tim brought the, 293 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the specification, his original specification, 294 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to the group, and we worked on it for, 295 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I don't remember, nine months to a year or so, 296 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to come up with a standard for URLs. 297 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So all of those URLs that we use, 298 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 day in and day out, 299 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 were, were standardized as a result 300 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 of that committee. 301 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So, it was, um, it was a really exciting time, 302 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 it was a time of, y'know - the question I always get 303 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 is why didn't make a billion dollars off of it? 304 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And I keep reminding people 305 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 most of the people who were pioneers - 306 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 with the exception of Mark Andreessen 307 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 uhm, didn't make a whole lot of money off of these. 308 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 these original things. 309 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 We were working in an environment which, uh, 310 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 put a premium on getting the technology out there 311 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 making it as widely available as possible - 312 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Tim's big coup with CERN, 313 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 which is the organization that he worked for 314 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 when he first developed the web 315 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 was to get CERN to put, um, the web software 316 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that he had created into the public domain. 317 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So it wasn't even his to give away, 318 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 it was CERN's property. 319 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 As an employee [of CERN], [Tim's work] would actually belong to CERN. 320 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Uh. He, he actually convinced them to put it in the public domain 321 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and that's what really, uh, y'know 322 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 set [amends] lit a fire under the whole thing. 323 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 At the time, the philosophy behind it 324 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 was really, "Let's get this out there, 325 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 "..this is a brave new world," 326 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 "..we don't know what all of this technology's gonna be used for!" 327 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I don't think any of us - including Tim - 328 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 imagined what it would become. 329 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Y'know, he always had a much grander vision of it 330 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 but I don't - I can guarantee you - 331 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I've spent many, many, many, many an hour 332 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 with drinks, in bars, drinking with Tim, 333 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and I can guarantee you that he did not 334 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - Sir Tim, by the way, Sir Tim - 335 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Um. I should - y'know, he even, he, 336 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I don't think, had any idea that it would basically 337 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 take over the world. 338 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and half the world's population would be using 339 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the system that he created, twenty years later. [corrects himself] Twenty-five years later. 340 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Ellery: Thank you so much. 341 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Ellery: I mean, so, speaking of which, yeah, 342 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 it has changed, and, I guess, taken over, in a way, 343 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 um, that we, I'm sure, wouldn't have expected. 344 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I wanted to now move to Josh and Renata, 345 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 who are both [something falls to the floor] 346 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 very [she looks at the fallen object, winces] 347 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 committed, involved leaders in what has now 348 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 become a global effort to - I mean, 349 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the way that we're sort of putting it 350 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 is "save the internet" 351 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 or, preserve and protect the openness 352 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 of all of the rights to free expression, access, um, 353 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and also privacy, that we all feel are embedded 354 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 actually, in the way that it was built. 355 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So, Josh, I wondered if you could explain to us 356 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 really briefly what your role is in your organization 357 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and then also, um, tell us about 358 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the Web We Want campaign, and explain, y'know, 359 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 how you think this rights movement is shaping up 360 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and if you could kind of link it with everything that 361 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Alan just laid out for us, 362 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that would be really wonderful. 363 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Josh Levy: I'll do my best. 364 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Josh: So, my name is Josh Levy, 365 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Josh: I'm from Free Press, 366 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 we're a U.S.-based organization, 367 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 we advocate for better technology and media policy 368 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that allows for an open internet, 369 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 for better representation 370 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 of people in the media, including media that's online, 371 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and for open access to information. 372 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And this issue that we're talking about - 373 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the anniversary of the web - 374 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 is really central to our work, 375 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 because we've been fighting, for example, 376 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to pass strong Net Neutrality policies here in the U.S. for years. 377 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Basically ever since the issue first came up, in the mid-2000s, 378 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 when we saw big internet service providers 379 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 blocking traffic coming from certain destinations. 380 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And that fight is ongoing. 381 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 The FCC, the Federal Communications Commission 382 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 here in the U.S., is charged with overseeing communications and technology policy, 383 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 passed rules in 2010 384 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that were intended to protect Net Neutrality 385 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 but were passed in a way that we knew wasn't gonna hold up in court. 386 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And we were - unfortunately, we saw that happen 387 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 when a court in Washington, D.C., threw out those rules, 388 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 effectively throwing out any Net Neutrality protections that people have. 389 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And so this gets back to what Jeremy was saying 390 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the "internet" versus the "Web," right? 391 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So when we're talking about Net Neutrality, 392 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 which I hope a lot of people have heard of, 393 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 this concept that we should be able to access any information that we want online 394 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 without anybody getting in the way, whether that's a big company or the government - 395 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that is, essentially, that's a policy that applies to 396 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to the ways in which all of our computers connect to each other. 397 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And we have this basic understanding that the internet should be free and open, 398 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 meaning that my computer should be able to connect 399 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to yours in this global network of computers 400 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 without any entity inspecting the traffic, 401 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 trying to understand what you're trying to access, 402 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and, based on that understanding, block it. 403 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So if it doesn't like the video you're watching, [it would be] slowing it down; 404 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 or, if it doesn't like the application you're using, blocking it - 405 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - that, that should be totally unacceptable. 406 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 We should be able to connect to whatever we want in whatever way we want. 407 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And that includes using the Web, right? 408 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So the Web is basically an application 409 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 The internet's this global network, 410 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the Web is just one application that uses this global network. 411 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And so it's essential - Net Neutrality is essential to using the web, 412 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 because as we've seen today, 413 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 using the web is so essential to all of our lives 414 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and big companies, and governments, have so much power over it that they can block all kinds of things: 415 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 political speech, videos that we wanna watch, pictures of cats, et cetera. 416 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So. Um, anyway, so that's what Free Press is doing, 417 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 in large part, trying to protect that notion of Net Neutrality. 418 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And out of that fight came a number of campaigns, 419 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 including the campaign to stop SOPA [Stop Online Piracy Act] 420 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - which was the bad copyright bill a couple years ago here in the U.S. - 421 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and out of that came a realization, I think, 422 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 here in the U.S. but [also] around the world, 423 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that we all needed to kind of talk to each other a little bit more. 424 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 those of us who have been advocating for a free and open internet for a long time. 425 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And so we started doing that: 426 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Free Press led the development the drafting of 427 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 something called the "Declaration of Internet Freedom" 428 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 which was a simple statement of principles about our right to access information online. 429 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And out of that came a really fruitful relationship with Tim Berners-Lee's organization, 430 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - the World Wide Web Foundation - 431 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and we discussed ways in which we could move that effort forward, 432 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 this Declaration effort, 433 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to involve more groups around the world, more people around the world, 434 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and to guarantee that we all have access to information 435 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and that that access, and the principles behind it, 436 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 are not the domain of any one country, or any one group of individuals. 437 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So, out of that came this great project, the Web We Want, 438 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 which Renata's gonna tell you more about. 439 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 which is seeking to do just that: 440 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to pass laws, around the world, that will protect people's right to access the internet 441 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and to access content on the Web without anybody getting in the way, 442 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and, uh, it's building steam very, very quickly - 443 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 we are working with countries around the world to develop their own set of principles 444 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 regarding the web and our rights on it, 445 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and organizing lots and lots of organizations that are really excited about getting involved in this effort 446 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and our dream of uniting groups who are all fighting the same fight but in different parts of the world 447 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 is kind of coming to life. 448 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So, I'll let Renata tell you more about that. 449 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Renata Avila: Eum, hello everyone, everybody, 450 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 it's really good to be here? 451 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Renata: Ah, so: Web We Want. 452 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 The Web We Want is a coalition of [gestures as she searches for words] 453 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 very important groups of organizations from [unintelligible] society 454 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Ah, I will mention [some] of them: 455 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Access, that many of us are familiar with; [AccessNow.org] 456 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 APC; [Association for Progressive Communications] 457 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Free Press; 458 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 7iber, in Jordan; the Open Source Association, in Jordan as well; 459 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 [ums and ers] 460 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Consumers International; Article 19; Fundação Getulio Vargas, in Brazil; 461 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 IT for Change, in India; Public Knowledge, in the U.S.; 462 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and we, we have a - we got the confirmation that Open Knowledge Foundation, 463 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 which has affiliates all over the world, will join as well. 464 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So, basically, the campaign... 465 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 ..what we are trying to achieve here 466 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 is to move from the reactions, 467 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the constant reactions to the civil society we have, 468 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to a proactive approach. 469 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 To have a positive agenda, to have the safe [??] first, in different countries. 470 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And also globally [??] 471 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And what happens is usually that we come together last minute - 472 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 we react to bad legislation being proposed, 473 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 by either specific [interest groups], or a very creative but not so well informed legislator... 474 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And so, in the last, let's say, five years, 475 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 we have seen so many mobilizations against, against, against. 476 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So we think that yes, it's good to have a reaction to bad legislation, 477 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 but it's much more effective to have a proposal coming from civil society. 478 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And not only - like, civil society understood as a - 479 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 a more extended way [than] we usually use in [discussions of] internet governance - 480 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 but civil society involving everyone in a fight for our rights. 481 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And so we have different activities and different actions to achieve that. 482 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 The first would be intense work in specific countries where we [gestures] 483 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 together, all the advisory committee, so that there's something going on, 484 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 some movement in civil society, and there's some action there. 485 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So, the list of the countries that we have decided will be like the first "grant-ees" [i.e. recipients] 486 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 of um, more stronger support from the punt [???] where we want manages [???] will be: 487 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Japan, Indonesia, Philippines, India, Bangladesh, Brazil, Ecuador, the U.K., Tunisia, Nigeria, Kenya... 488 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 ...and South Africa. 489 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So, as you see, it's mostly countries of the global south. 490 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Also the U.K., because we saw an opportunity there, 491 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and we also saw a regression of rights. 492 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It is very interesting to see how the deterioration of rights in a country - 493 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - even in a democratic country - 494 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 in the last ten years, has been very extreme. 495 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And this is really affecting the region. 496 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Apart from this intense work that we are planning to do, having national dialogues in these countries, 497 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I have informed you of, 498 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 we have also - we are launching, on the 21st of March, a mini-grant round. 499 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 The mini-grants are for everyone to apply, so you don't need to be an NGO 500 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 so you don't need to be an NGO, you don't need to be an expert to apply for these grants. 501 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 What we want is normal people - 502 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - artists, musicians, everyone - 503 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to be involved in this and [unintelligible] to celebrate, to party for the Web! 504 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 But at the same time celebrate the Web, we start a conversation on what is the web we want? 505 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 What is - [struggles for words] 506 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - which values, which form we want, which way we want to protect the Web in our countries. 507 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 The free and open Web. 508 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And so it can be as simple as a screening in a public space? 509 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It can be more elaborate, like a talk at your local library? 510 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It can be anything you want, it can be even a sculpture in the middle of a city. 511 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 ah, telling people what the Web represents [means] to you. 512 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 But also, we know that we cannot abandon those fighting "against." 513 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So we have rapid response grants. 514 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And these rapid response grants are for, ehh - 515 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 we, we have identified that sometimes to make something happen, you need some resources. 516 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Especially in some countries in the global south. 517 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So. For example, ehh, think about a very bad surveillance law. 518 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 about to be passed in, oh, Nicaragua. 519 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So, this rapid response - 520 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - which will be open during the whole year - 521 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - will allow activists to say, "Hey, listen. This very bad thing is happening..." 522 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 "..and we think that if we gather a group of people together, and we print, uh, leaflets..." 523 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 "..and we make a short video about it, we have a good chance to shift the opinions to our side." 524 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 "The side of right." 525 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And so that will be open as well, that will be open on the 21st of March, and remain open the whole year. 526 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And what we will achieve at the end of the year is a very interesting collection of experiences. 527 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 We will see that - [finds her words] 528 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 what is the Web people want, in the specific countries, 529 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 with more intense follow-up mechanism and dialogue. 530 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 We will also see which techniques are the best for rapid response 531 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 when there's a threat to the open internet. 532 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 by the collection of experiences from the rapid response grants. 533 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And also we will learn from ways to engage the broader public in our topics and in our issues. 534 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So I am very hopeful that especially artists, or very creative activists, 535 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 will find ways to engage the broader public. 536 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Because we need - this is ours. 537 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 The future of [the open internet] depends on us preserving it. 538 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And the more people invited to this fight, the stronger we get. 539 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 At last, I will... I would like to invite everyone to be engaged the way that you can engage. 540 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And to apply for these grants! 541 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 But not only to apply for these grants - to make things your own. 542 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 If you want to write an article, if you are an expert on specific topics, 543 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 please write articles, please share your knowledge with people, 544 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and please engage, and don't be apathetic. 545 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Because the Web offers us - 546 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - and the internet offers us - 547 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - this opportunity to communicate and connect beyond borders, 548 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and I think that, slowly, we are building this platform - 549 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - which is not a website but is a platform made of [amends her description] collective – 550 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - that is ready to jump and to take actions to save the web any moment that it is under threat. 551 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So. Yes. That's it. 552 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Ellery [laughs]: Thanks. 553 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Ellery: It's really - I think it's great to sort of, to have that out there, 554 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 for people to understand all the ways that they can get involved. 555 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 One thing I - so, in thinking about how can we make a little show today that would celebrate the web, 556 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I couldn't help but think about Global Voices, 557 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 because that's what brings us all together here, 558 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and, I think that our community, in so many ways - 559 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I mean, we couldn't exist, wouldn't exist, without the Web, 560 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 but there are also so many particular attributes of it, 561 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 when it comes to access and openness, 562 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that allow us to do all the things that we do, 563 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 like, including this hangout, right now. 564 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Um. So I wanted to ask - 565 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - although we're really short on time - 566 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Jer, you, I kind of, I said, is there... 567 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 ...could you talk a little bit about what, if you look at Global Voices, 568 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and sort of the way that it's grow up, um, with the internet - 569 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - you've been here since the beginning, 570 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 so you can kind of - just, just tell us a bit. 571 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Jeremy Clark: Okay, well, uh, 572 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Jeremy: I actually haven't been with Global Voices since the very beginning, 573 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 but I joined near the start. 574 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So, maybe you can see on my screen - 575 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - Global Voices was started in 2005, um, 576 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and one of the great things about the story is that it was started quickly and easily by Ethan Zuckerman 577 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 who set up the original site, uh, 578 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 along with Rebecca McKinnon, who worked on the idea and the content, 579 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and so, they actually used WordPress, which is the system we still use today, 580 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and which is very similar to the Web in a lot of senses 581 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 because it's a distributed project, 582 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 people all around the world develop it, 583 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 it's open-source, free, 584 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 (and it is [free] not by convenience but very explicit philosophy and they're very active in defending that) 585 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and also in another way: uh, originally, at the time, 586 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 there was a very popular free software called Movable Type 587 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and instead of starting to pay for it, people switched to Wordpress. 588 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So, this was our original website. 589 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 We later redesigned it several times. 590 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And over the years, we have grown with WordPress 591 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to take advantage of the new features... um. 592 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 [gestures] - keep running our site. 593 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And so running our whole infrastructure on this very decentralized open-source model has been 594 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 a really rewarding experience for us, just as using the Web has. 595 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And obviously, the, uh, one of the most interesting things is that 596 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Global Voices is all about the web. 597 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Without the Web, without that decentralized authorship, 598 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - anyone can write to it - 599 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 there would be no Global Voices. 600 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Uh, the whole point of global voices was to 601 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 recognize that people all over the world 602 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 were taking advantage of the benefits of the Web, 603 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and create one place where you could find it, 604 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 sort of like Archie was with the pre-Web TelNet days 605 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 a archive of things happening all around - 606 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - that's what Global Voices did. 607 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Um. So. Yeah! 608 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And, y'know, we've tried a lot of different 609 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 infrastructure based around the web over the years; 610 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 uh, we've used Drupal, 611 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 we've used a lot of different online services, 612 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 obviously, like everyone else, 613 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the temptation to take advantage of Google's 614 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 free offerings has always been part of Global Voices' DNA, 615 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 we use Google mailing lists, 616 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 we use all the different things that they make for free 617 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 which is an interesting part of the web, 618 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 because it's not the Web, that's Google, 619 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 just happening to give it away, 620 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 but as a company, they have a tendency 621 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to follow the spirit of the Web, uh, 622 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 even though they're doing so for commercial reasons. 623 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 But - yeah! 624 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 That's my very brief summary 625 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 of the history of Global Voices 626 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and how it parallels the Web! 627 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Ellery: Thank you! 628 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Ellery: I'm afraid we're gonna have to wrap up now 629 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 but, just, to do that, I wanted to ask for 630 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 a couple of, kind of, final thoughts... 631 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 ...from Alan, and perhaps also Josh, just - 632 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - Alan, I guess I'm especially interested in 633 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 if there are, kinda, thoughts that you have 634 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 on all of the activism and advocacy 635 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that's taking place around fundamental rights on the Internet, 636 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 from your own unique historical perspective. 637 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And then I wanted to close, um, 638 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 by asking Renata to just tell us a very little bit about Bassel 639 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 since there's also an important anniversary this weekend. 640 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So, I'm gonna just let you guys go, 641 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and then we will close out! 642 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Alan Emtage: Okay, well, y'know, 643 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Alan: I haven't been involved as an activist 644 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 for, uh, for quite some time now. 645 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I sort of burnt out after a while! [laughs] 646 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - flying around the globe, and doing all the stuff that I did in the nineties. 647 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 But I certainly pay a lot of attention to that stuff 648 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 y'know, I'm currently involved in Barbados, right now, 649 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and it has been really interesting to try and, 650 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 for one example, 651 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 try and access content from the United States 652 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - entertainment content, that kind of stuff. 653 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And, I mean, I knew about this stuff in theory, 654 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 but in practice, the antiquated models 655 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 of content distribution that we're still holding onto 656 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 in this day and age, 657 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 where, you know, geographical boundaries and national boundaries and that kinda stuff 658 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 are still very much at the center of these business models. 659 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Y'know, things like BitTorrent and that kinda stuff 660 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 are wiping them away, and they don't even realize it. 661 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 The music industry has seen this happen, now, for decades - 662 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Certainly from the activist point of view, 663 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 in terms of keeping the Internet free and available, 664 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 it's gonna be a real challenge. 665 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And, I mean, it's such an important technology now. 666 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 You have things like the Great Firewall in China... 667 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 You have, you know, Russia, who recently - 668 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - as of yesterday, today - 669 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - shutting down, using new laws to shut down access to dissent against Putin... 670 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 They realize the power - 671 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - Egypt was a real wakeup call for a lot of people in the use of social networking 672 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to organize and activate people and bring them out onto the streets, 673 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 so governments are scared of this technology 674 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and it's important that we work really hard 675 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to keep it as free as it is, 676 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 because they realize that, you know, 677 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 information - how you control the information, you control the people. 678 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So, um, I think it is extraordinarily important 679 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that people like Josh [unintelligible] 680 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 continue to work very hard to stop the bad laws, 681 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to inform the legislators - 682 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - some of them are just doing it out of ignorance! 683 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I mean, you know, 684 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 "Never ascribe to malice what can be ascribed to incompetence." 685 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And, uh, a lot of these people are just 686 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 incompetent, not malicious. 687 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 But there are people who are malicious, as well [laughing a bit] 688 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 so we have to deal with them as well. 689 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 But, um, you know, it's vitally important 690 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 because, uh, nowadays, these technologies 691 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 really sit at the core of our culture 692 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and the way that we communicate with one another. 693 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 [long silence] 694 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Josh [wondering if he should speak next]: ...Me? 695 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 [Josh laughs silently] 696 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Josh: I'll just add one thing real quickly - 697 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - I think that we're at an interesting moment 698 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 where so many of us acknowledge the importance of the Internet and the Web, 699 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and the impact that it's had on every aspect of our culture, 700 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and because of that, 701 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I think we as the users of the Web, and of the Internet, have a duty 702 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to hold governments around the world and companies around the world accountable 703 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and to urge them and pressure them 704 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to protect the openness that lies at the core of this entire thing. 705 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And to protect, not just openness, but 706 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 also this notion of a Commons. 707 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 That's - in our opinion - quickly being lost. 708 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 This notion that the Internet, and the Web, are publicly owned, 709 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and that the activity that takes place on them 710 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 is activity that we undertake 711 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and that is ours. 712 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And that is not the domain of the big companies' platforms. 713 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 We undertake the activity. 714 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So, for example, 715 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Google has allowed us to do a lot of things. 716 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Google allows us to find information extremely quickly, 717 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to connect to each other extremely well, 718 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to use Google Hangouts as we're doing right now, 719 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 but Google's doing all of this at the - 720 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - while mining the data that we give it, selling off that data - 721 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - that data is also creating historical record 722 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 of everything that we search for and say online, 723 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 which as we know, can be exploited by governments, 724 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - but also by companies - 725 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and I think it's time for us to think about that relationship 726 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 between us and these big companies, 727 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 which is becoming the central part of our online experience. 728 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And how can we decentralize that? 729 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 How can we decouple ourselves from these giant companies 730 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and take back a portion of the Web 731 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 so that we own this experience in a deeper way 732 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and it's not experienced as purely commercial, 733 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 a commercial transaction between us an a big company. 734 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So that's a big question, 735 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and it's going to take years to unravel it, to find solutions, 736 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 but we're hoping that we can start that conversation now. 737 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 [long silence] 738 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Renata: Well, now I will go back to something that Jeremy said. 739 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It was about someone stopping him at the border, the Canadian border, 740 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 because of "hacker." 741 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And what I want to talk about is that, 742 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 at the end of the day, 743 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 we reduce the number of people who can actually, 744 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 in some countries, not control the internet, 745 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 but understand the infrastructure, and use it in a way that they can increase public good. 746 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and they can help people in extreme situations. 747 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And one of these people is my friend Bassel Khartabil - 748 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 [fondly] Bassel, Bassel is the internet. Basically. 749 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Basel is Palestinian-Syrian activist, 750 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 he's an activist of Greek culture, 751 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and he's a global citizen. 752 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 He's not super nationalistic, you know, 753 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 he has traveled a lot, extensively, 754 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 he has friends all over the world, 755 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and he likes to spend time learning how things work, how things operate, 756 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 so he's very good with computers - 757 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 he [taught] himself how to code, thanks to his uncle - 758 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 He knows a lot about hardware as well, 759 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and he knows a lot about Greek culture and design. 760 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And so during his travels he saw all these wonderful things happening 761 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and so he decided, with a group of friends, 762 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to create a hackerspace in Damascus 763 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I don't know how translation works, 764 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 but apparently "hacker-space" is a very scary word for the civilian intelligence service, 765 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and they saw it as a threat - 766 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 people in power saw technology as a threat 767 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to their plan to control people. 768 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So on the 15th of December, two years ago, 769 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the hacker-space was raided... 770 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 All the computers were taken away, 771 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 all the things were dismantled - 772 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - can you imagine one of these Syrian police looking at the 3D printer, oh my god, 773 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 they probably thought they were like nuclear weapons, or something - 774 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and, sadly, he has been away, he has been in prison. 775 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 He has been in a very, very bad prison subject to torture treatment. 776 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 But then he was - thanks to the advocacy of thousands of people, 777 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 he was transferred back to the civilian prison. 778 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Which, you can imagine, if you have seen a civilian prison, how bad it looks like. 779 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I mean, it is... the conditions get from bad to worse as time goes by, 780 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 as the Syrian government runs out of resources. 781 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 The last people they will feed, the last people they will take care of, are the prisoners. 782 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 On top of that, Bassel, he has a health condition... 783 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It is all really sad. 784 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 But, what we have been trying to do during these two years 785 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 is to keep him peaceful. 786 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And to keep reminding him that we haven't forgotten 787 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and to keep reminding him that we embrace the values that he embrace. 788 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And we support the causes that he supports. 789 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So, instead of, you know, just being sad, and doing nothing, 790 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 we are a doing a Free Bassel Day. 791 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 On the 15th of March. 792 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Well, some things are already starting today! 793 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And what we want is, ah, joint action - 794 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - doing things, doing anything you can do to remember Bassel. 795 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And not only Bassel. To remember Syria. 796 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Because it seems that because of the news, 797 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 we just, we don't hear about Syria anymore! 798 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I mean, it's like, we might hear it on the [radio, while we're in] the parking lot, 799 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and if we have some time, we go, "oh, okay, something is going badly there." 800 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 But, uh, we seem to have forgotten about all the suffering. 801 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And together with Bassel there are 802 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 lots of system administrators, computer experts, and hackers who are in prison, 803 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and sometimes we only care about journalists! 804 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 But, you know, there's lots of people, valuable people for the future of Syria, 805 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 who are in prison now, who need our solidarity. 806 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I will also - if you live in a country which has received Syrian refugees, 807 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 please show solidarity. 808 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I know that sharing your computer might not sound appealing, 809 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 but maybe crowdfunding and giving a computer with internet access to this refugee camp 810 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 so they can stay in touch with their relatives abroad...? 811 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Maybe doing a short talk or short gathering near them...? 812 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I think that those are good ways to help Bassel. 813 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Because that's what Bassel probably would be doing if he was free. 814 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So my appeal is that - to not forget Syria, to not forget Bassel. 815 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 The free internet is a free internet with free Bassel and free Syria! 816 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And that's - the Web I want, actually! 817 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Ellery: That is the Web she wants! 818 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Ellery: The Web many of us want. 819 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So, there's a lot of work to do, 820 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and there are lots of ways to get involved, as we've heard about. 821 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Thank you, everybody, so much 822 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 for coming on today, 823 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and we hope to see everybody here and out there on GV Face! 824 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Thanks so much! 825 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999