1 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Our weekly video hangout series! 2 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I think - let's see, we started a little bit off time 3 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 so I'll say it again: 4 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Welcome to GV Face, our weekly video hangout series! 5 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Today, we are celebrating the 25th birthday of the world wide web. 6 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Pretty exciting. That was on Wednesday. 7 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Um, we've got a really all-star lineup of guests 8 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 on today's program. 9 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Um, moving from left to right, we have: 10 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Alan Emtage, a very special guest who is 11 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 gonna talk to us about his very special creation 12 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 of, uh, the first web browser... 13 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Um! We have Jeremy Clark, in Montreal - 14 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Jeremy is a technical director at Global Voices. 15 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Josh Levy, from Free Press, 16 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 in Massachusetts, in the U.S. 17 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and Renata Avila, campaign manager for the Web We Want 18 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Creative Commons extraordinaire, and 19 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 GV star. 20 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 who is joining us from Berlin! 21 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Welcome, everybody! 22 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Um. So we wanted to start today's show 23 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 by talking a little bit about the world wide web 24 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and the internet. 25 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 'Cuz a lot of people think that they're the same thing 26 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 when actually, that's not quite true. 27 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I want to first turn to Jeremy 28 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and just ask, Jer, could you 29 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 break it down for us, like, 30 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I thought that the internet was invented in the 70's 31 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 but, if it's the 25th birthday of the web, 32 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 what does that mean? 33 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Jeremy Clark: Okay, well, the 34 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 best place to start, I think, is 35 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the internet - it has existed in various formats 36 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 since the 1970's, as you said, 37 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 but it was the web that really made it 38 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 enter our homes. 39 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and, so, understanding the relationship is important. 40 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So, the internet was invented by 41 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the U.S. Government in a lot of senses... 42 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 ...a mix of military and science funding 43 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that developed the network of actual computers 44 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that can communicate with each other over 45 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 wires. 46 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Now, another related technology that is also compri-- 47 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 [amends] uh, built in to the web 48 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 is called hypertext. And that is the notion 49 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 of documents that can link between each other 50 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 immediately, without having to go and fetch 51 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 a separate document. Um. 52 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So there were lots of systems since the 1960s 53 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that were trying to implement hypertext, like, 54 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Xanadu is an example, 55 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 uh, but all of them were commercial, expensive, closed, 56 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and none of them were very popular. 57 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So, Tim Berners-Lee, who is the "inventor of the internet," 58 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 [corrects himself] of the web, obviously, the World Wide Web - 59 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Um. [Tim Berners-Lee] put those two things together 60 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 by building a service that runs 61 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 on top of the internet, and he 62 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 called it the World Wide Web. 63 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So what the World Wide Web is, is the 64 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 decentralized hypertext engine 65 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that we use to communicate between 66 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 computers' web pages. 67 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So what makes up WEB is three things: 68 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 URLs (or URIs) - Universal Resource Locator 69 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 which are the addresses we use to find things on the web, 70 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 [#2] HTML, which is the 71 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 HyperText Markup Lanuage 72 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 which is the way that the information 73 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 is stored and sent 74 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 so that we can then use browsers 75 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to view HTML, and then 76 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 all the documents can be understood 77 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and then also they display the links 78 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 so that the hypertext part of it works 79 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and we can jump around from page to page. 80 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Um, the final part is HTTP, which is 81 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the HyperText Transfer Protocol 82 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 which is the communication method 83 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 by which the different computers can 84 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 talk to each other and send the 85 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 HTML documents back and forth 86 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 depending on the URLs. 87 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Um. So, when he built it, there were some 88 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 very important things that he built into this system 89 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that didn't exist before. 90 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And the main one is 91 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 universal authorship. 92 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So he always intended that anyone would be able 93 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to access these webpages, 94 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and anyone would be able to 95 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 add their own webpages, without 96 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 asking for permission. 97 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 With the very explicit special condition 98 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that anyone can link to any other webpage 99 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 without permission. 100 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Previous hypertext systems required that 101 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 basically, for you to link to me, 102 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I have to accept that link, and 103 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 probably create a link back to you, and 104 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that wasn't required on the Web, which 105 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 gives us a lot of freedom to link to people 106 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 who wouldn't want us to be able to link to them, for example, 107 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 so no one can say "I'm putting up free content..." 108 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 "...but you can't send your readers here, because I hate you," et cetera. 109 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 The other one is that he made it completely, completely free. 110 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So in the world of inter--[fumbles for words]--programming 111 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the most free thing is generally considered 112 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to be the GPL [General Public License]: open-source, free software licenses. 113 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 uh, and Tim Berners-Lee actually almost used 114 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the GPL, because he wanted the web software 115 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 he was building to be free. 116 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 But at the last minute he actually changed his mind 117 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and made it full public domain, because in certain ways 118 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the GPL is actually more restrictive, because it 119 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 forces other people - like, certain commercial actors 120 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 wouldn't have wanted to use web technology 121 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 if it were GPL, so he made it full public domain, 122 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and then from there went on to make all of the standards 123 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 as open and, uh, general and free as possible. 124 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Uh. So that's my extremely brief history of the internet. 125 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 If anyone is curious, he wrote a wonderful book 126 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 called "Weaving the Web" about his experiences 127 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 [enticing tone] As you can see, it's short! 128 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And he has lots of interesting technical information 129 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 in it, without being overwhelming. 130 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It's very approachable 131 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and he's a really interesting person 132 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and it - the book is much better than his tweets, 133 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 which are usually incoherent. 134 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 [one of the participants huffs out a "whew"] 135 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Ellery: Ouch! Jeremy [?]: A few minutes? 136 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Ellery: Thanks, that was - that was great, Jer! 137 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Ellery: I mean, I think that that helps 138 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 um, in conversations about internet policy, 139 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and internet governance, there's a lot of emphasis 140 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 on the ability to kind of create and innovate 141 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 without permission? Like, for every 142 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to be able to build parts of the web, and 143 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 what you just laid out for us makes it clear 144 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 how important the Web piece of the infrastructure is 145 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 for that, for that capacity to become 146 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 a real tangible thing, and somebody that - [amends] something that now 147 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 we can do - we don't have to have 148 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 technical expertise to kind of build our own spaces there. 149 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Ellery: Um. So, I wanted to - Jeremy: So um. 150 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Jeremy: If I could add just one more thing, sorry - 151 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Jeremy: I just wanted to give a couple examples 152 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 of things that happen over the internet 153 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that aren't the web, 154 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 because that was the actual initial question. 155 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So, one example would be torrents, 156 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 where you're the - two computers connect to each other, 157 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and stream information directly, without any URLs 158 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 being mixed into the process. 159 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Um, another one is - email, at its core, 160 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 is its own communication protocol 161 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that doesn't have to use the web, 162 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 although we often use web sites to access and manage our email. 163 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Umm. And then another one was the one right before the Web came out, 164 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 a very popular protocol was called Gopher, 165 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 which people liked, and sort of worked like the Web 166 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - you surf around and find things - 167 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 but it actually became commercial right around the time that the web came out, 168 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 so people would've had to start paying, 169 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and instead of starting to pay, 170 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 they switched to HTTP, HTML, and the World Wide Web. 171 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Ellery: Thank you. 172 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Ellery: So I want to move to Alan, now... Um, 173 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Alan built the first search engine. 174 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And I'm kind of... like, overwhelmed, and feel sort of 175 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 like, giddy and nervous having him here. 176 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Ellery: This is just - [Alan laughs] 177 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Ellery: This is, like, a really big deal! 178 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Ellery: So, Alan, just - if you could tell us - 179 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 'cuz I think a lot of people don't know about Archie - 180 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 um, it would be really cool just to hear 181 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 about how you sort of - what you were doing 182 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that made you decide to, to do this 183 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and kinda what it was like, and then, I mean, everything you've seen since... 184 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Unfortunately we're time limited, but... 185 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Alan: Right. Ellery: You know. 186 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Alan [coughs]: Well, um, uh, well, that was back in 187 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 1989, and, I was working as a system administrator 188 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 for uh, McGill University - I was a grad student 189 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 for McGill University - and um, I was responsible 190 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 for getting software for - one of my responsibilities 191 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 was getting software for the faculty and the students. 192 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And at the time, the three major protocols on the internet 193 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - this was pre Web, ummm - 194 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 was, uh, Telnet, which would allow you to log in 195 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to a remote machine. 196 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Email, ah, which would allow you to communicate 197 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 ah, with another - as we do now, with a, with a 198 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 remote machines, plural, 199 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and, and FTP, which was the File Transfer Protocol, 200 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 which allowed you to move, ah, data files, or files 201 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 from one machine to another. 202 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And at the time what we had was - people had made 203 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - remember it was a non-commercial internet at the time - 204 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - actually, commercial traffic was forbidden on the internet at the time, 205 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 because it was run by the National Science Foundation 206 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and it was using educational money 207 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and therefore other than companies with 208 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 research arms, like IBM and HP and those kinds of things, 209 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 we didn't have any commercial traffic on the internet, 210 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 which nowadays seems kind of amazing to even think about - 211 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and, ah, so what people did, were to provide 212 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to provide free space on their machines 213 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - and remember, you know, at the time, 214 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 a big disc would be a megabyte, you know - 215 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and so people would provide common repositories 216 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that you could deposit programs that you had written 217 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 datafiles, and documents, and that kinda stuff. 218 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 into these central repositories that were 219 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 spread around the internet. 220 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Then other people could then retrieve them. 221 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And so I spent a lot of my time trying to locate 222 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 software, or the information that my, the students and the faculty were trying to find, 223 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and I got tired of it. 224 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and since I'm lazy and a geek, I... 225 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I automated the process. 226 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I got - instead of doing it manually, I had a bunch 227 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 of scripts wake up in the middle of the night every night, 228 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and go out and index files. 229 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Now remember all of this was just file listings. 230 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It's not like Google, it's not like a search engine would be today, 231 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 it is just... filenames. All it was, was filenames. 232 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And so what it would do 233 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 was it would go out every night, 234 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 list all the filenames in all the repositories, 235 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and allow you to search lists of filenames. 236 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And I only used it for myself! 237 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I only used it, um, uh, for my own personal use. 238 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Um, and at one point my boss, 239 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 who was also a student, a grad student 240 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 at the University, let Peter Deutsch let it be known 241 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 that, um, somebody was asking for, you know, 242 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 could they, could somebody tell them where, um, 243 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 y'know, a particular piece of software was. 244 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And, uh, uh, we, um, uh... we, you know, 245 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 he came and asked me, he knew we had this database 246 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and he came and asked me if I could help out. 247 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And I gave it to him, and if, y'know, 248 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 half a sec- half a minute later I had the information, 249 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and so he put this posting online, and, umm. 250 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 People then started asking, 251 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 "Well, can you find this for me?" 252 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And, you know, all these manual requests! 253 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Basically - either through email, or UseNet postings - 254 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - which is what we were using at the time - 255 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 we thought, this is silly, 256 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 there's no point doing these things manually 257 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 when we can just allow people access to the database itself. 258 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And in a moment of insanity, 259 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 we had to come up with a name for it, 260 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and I said, "Okay, well, let's just call it ARCHI," 261 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 which is "ARCHIVE" without the V 262 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And, ah, and within about three or four months 263 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 we were consuming about half 264 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 of all of the traffic to eastern Canada [where McGill University is] 265 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 as this search engine became - as people, y'know - 266 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 - word of mouth - 267 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 you know, people who know about Archie 268 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 are generally people of a certain age... 269 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 ...I won't mention what that age is, but 270 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 it's generally people who were in university 271 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 or working on the internet, so it would have been 272 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 so it would have been research people, 273 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 people in academia in the early nineties. 274 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So Archie lasted for about, uh, [hems and haws] 275 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Five years. Four or five years. 276 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And, um, it only indexed FTP archives. 277 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 It never indexed the web. 278 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Now, I went on, as Archie became popular, 279 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and I got more involved in the standards process 280 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and that kind of stuff, 281 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I worked, uh, fairly closely with Tim Berners-Lee 282 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to, uh, to standardize - for example, 283 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I did the - I ran the committee 284 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 at the standard-setting body for the internet, 285 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 which is the IETF [Internet Engineering Task Force] 286 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to standardize URLs. 287 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 Because Tim had come up with 288 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 a set of rules for URLS, 289 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 and as we looked at expanding that 290 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to a larger range of resources, 291 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 we realized that those rules did not cover 292 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 all of the cases. 293 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So, we worked, for, uh - Tim brought the, 294 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 the specification, his original specification, 295 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to the group, and we worked on it for, 296 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 I don't remember, nine months to a year or so, 297 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 to come up with a standard for URLs. 298 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So all of those URLs that we use, 299 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 day in and day out, 300 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 were, were standardized as a result 301 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 of that committee. 302 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 So, it was, um, it was a really exciting time, 303 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 it was a time of, y'know - the question I always get 304 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 is why didn't make a billion dollars off of it? 305 99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999 And I keep reminding people