1 00:00:01,594 --> 00:00:04,193 Ellery Roberts Biddle [mid-sentence]: ...Our weekly video hangout series! 2 00:00:04,193 --> 00:00:07,420 I think - let's see, we started a little bit off time 3 00:00:07,420 --> 00:00:08,423 so I'll say it again: 4 00:00:08,423 --> 00:00:12,789 Ellery: Welcome to GV Face, our weekly video hangout series! 5 00:00:12,789 --> 00:00:18,367 Today, we are celebrating the 25th birthday of the world wide web. 6 00:00:18,367 --> 00:00:20,789 Pretty exciting. That was on Wednesday. 7 00:00:20,789 --> 00:00:24,634 Um, we've got a really all-star lineup of guests 8 00:00:24,634 --> 00:00:27,673 on today's program. 9 00:00:27,673 --> 00:00:31,955 Um, moving from left to right, we have: 10 00:00:31,955 --> 00:00:35,345 Alan Emtage, a very special guest who is 11 00:00:35,345 --> 00:00:42,186 gonna talk to us about his very special creation 12 00:00:42,186 --> 00:00:44,558 of, uh, the first web browser... 13 00:00:44,558 --> 00:00:46,916 Um! We have Jeremy Clark, in Montreal - 14 00:00:46,916 --> 00:00:50,468 Jeremy is a technical director at Global Voices. 15 00:00:50,468 --> 00:00:53,122 Josh Levy, from Free Press, 16 00:00:53,122 --> 00:00:55,250 in Massachusetts, in the U.S. 17 00:00:55,250 --> 00:01:00,656 and Renata Avila, campaign manager for the Web We Want 18 00:01:00,656 --> 00:01:03,156 Creative Commons extraordinaire, and 19 00:01:03,156 --> 00:01:07,251 GV star, who is joining us from Berlin! 20 00:01:07,251 --> 00:01:09,115 Welcome, everybody! 21 00:01:09,115 --> 00:01:12,659 Um. So we wanted to start today's show 22 00:01:12,659 --> 00:01:17,083 by talking a little bit about the World Wide Web 23 00:01:17,083 --> 00:01:19,545 and the internet. 24 00:01:19,545 --> 00:01:23,617 'Cuz a lot of people think that they're the same thing 25 00:01:23,617 --> 00:01:27,085 when actually, that's not quite true. 26 00:01:27,085 --> 00:01:29,884 I want to first turn to Jeremy 27 00:01:29,884 --> 00:01:32,114 and just ask, Jer, could you 28 00:01:32,114 --> 00:01:34,157 break it down for us, like, 29 00:01:34,157 --> 00:01:37,081 I thought that the internet was invented in the 70's 30 00:01:37,081 --> 00:01:41,651 but, if it's the 25th birthday of the web, 31 00:01:41,651 --> 00:01:43,862 what does that mean? 32 00:01:43,862 --> 00:01:45,951 Jeremy Clark: Okay, well, the 33 00:01:45,951 --> 00:01:47,957 best place to start, I think, is 34 00:01:47,957 --> 00:01:50,556 the internet - it has existed in various formats 35 00:01:50,556 --> 00:01:55,726 since the 1970's, as you said, 36 00:01:55,726 --> 00:01:57,965 but it was the web that really made it 37 00:01:57,965 --> 00:01:59,313 enter our homes. 38 00:01:59,313 --> 00:02:03,156 and, so, understanding the relationship is important. 39 00:02:03,156 --> 00:02:05,555 So, the internet was invented by 40 00:02:05,555 --> 00:02:07,756 the U.S. Government in a lot of senses... 41 00:02:07,756 --> 00:02:10,668 ...a mix of military and science funding 42 00:02:10,668 --> 00:02:13,623 that developed the network of actual computers 43 00:02:13,623 --> 00:02:15,012 that can communicate with each other 44 00:02:15,012 --> 00:02:17,419 over wires. 45 00:02:17,419 --> 00:02:22,788 Now, another related technology that is also compri-- 46 00:02:22,788 --> 00:02:24,055 [amends] uh, built in to the web 47 00:02:24,055 --> 00:02:27,285 is called hypertext. And that is the notion 48 00:02:27,285 --> 00:02:31,788 of documents that can link between each other 49 00:02:31,788 --> 00:02:35,188 immediately, without having to go and fetch 50 00:02:35,188 --> 00:02:37,188 a separate document. Um. 51 00:02:37,188 --> 00:02:39,767 So there were lots of systems since the 1960s 52 00:02:39,767 --> 00:02:41,883 that were trying to implement hypertext, like, 53 00:02:41,883 --> 00:02:43,483 Xanadu is an example, 54 00:02:43,483 --> 00:02:47,420 uh, but all of them were commercial, expensive, closed, 55 00:02:47,420 --> 00:02:49,421 and none of them were very popular. 56 00:02:49,421 --> 00:02:53,819 So, Tim Berners-Lee, who is the "inventor of the internet," 57 00:02:53,819 --> 00:02:57,702 [corrects himself] of the web, obviously, the World Wide Web - 58 00:02:57,702 --> 00:02:59,587 Um. [Tim Berners-Lee] put those two things together 59 00:02:59,587 --> 00:03:01,758 by building a service that runs 60 00:03:01,758 --> 00:03:03,958 on top of the internet, and he 61 00:03:03,958 --> 00:03:06,083 called it the World Wide Web. 62 00:03:06,083 --> 00:03:09,756 So what the World Wide Web is, is the 63 00:03:09,756 --> 00:03:13,189 decentralized hypertext engine 64 00:03:13,189 --> 00:03:15,956 that we use to communicate between 65 00:03:15,956 --> 00:03:18,821 computers' web pages. 66 00:03:18,821 --> 00:03:23,356 So what makes up WEB is three things: 67 00:03:23,356 --> 00:03:27,156 URLs, or URIs - Universal Resource Locator, 68 00:03:27,156 --> 00:03:30,656 which are the addresses we use to find things on the web; 69 00:03:30,656 --> 00:03:32,853 HTML, which is the 70 00:03:32,853 --> 00:03:35,317 HyperText Markup Lanuage 71 00:03:35,317 --> 00:03:37,886 which is the way that the information 72 00:03:37,886 --> 00:03:39,222 is stored and sent 73 00:03:39,222 --> 00:03:41,557 so that we can then use browsers 74 00:03:41,557 --> 00:03:44,683 to view HTML, and then 75 00:03:44,683 --> 00:03:48,020 all the documents can be understood 76 00:03:48,020 --> 00:03:50,344 and then also they display the links 77 00:03:50,344 --> 00:03:52,234 so that the hypertext part of it works 78 00:03:52,234 --> 00:03:55,081 and we can jump around from page to page. 79 00:03:55,081 --> 00:03:57,790 Um, the final part is HTTP, which is 80 00:03:57,790 --> 00:03:59,956 the HyperText Transfer Protocol 81 00:03:59,956 --> 00:04:02,421 which is the communication method 82 00:04:02,421 --> 00:04:05,189 by which the different computers can 83 00:04:05,189 --> 00:04:07,587 talk to each other and send the 84 00:04:07,587 --> 00:04:10,221 HTML documents back and forth 85 00:04:10,221 --> 00:04:11,882 depending on the URLs. 86 00:04:11,882 --> 00:04:15,223 Um. So, when he built it, there were some 87 00:04:15,223 --> 00:04:17,755 very important things that he built into this system 88 00:04:17,755 --> 00:04:19,345 that didn't exist before. 89 00:04:19,345 --> 00:04:21,119 And the main one is 90 00:04:21,119 --> 00:04:22,851 universal authorship. 91 00:04:22,851 --> 00:04:26,854 So he always intended that anyone would be able 92 00:04:26,854 --> 00:04:29,156 to access these webpages, 93 00:04:29,156 --> 00:04:30,419 and anyone would be able to 94 00:04:30,419 --> 00:04:31,661 add their own webpages, 95 00:04:31,661 --> 00:04:33,516 without asking for permission. 96 00:04:33,516 --> 00:04:37,152 With the very explicit special condition 97 00:04:37,152 --> 00:04:39,514 that anyone can link to any other webpage 98 00:04:39,514 --> 00:04:41,283 without permission. 99 00:04:41,283 --> 00:04:44,483 Previous hypertext systems required that 100 00:04:44,483 --> 00:04:46,623 basically, for you to link to me, 101 00:04:46,623 --> 00:04:48,020 I have to accept that link, 102 00:04:48,020 --> 00:04:50,090 and probably create a link back to you, 103 00:04:50,090 --> 00:04:51,871 and that wasn't required on the Web, 104 00:04:51,871 --> 00:04:53,820 which gives us a lot of freedom to link to people 105 00:04:53,820 --> 00:04:57,314 who wouldn't want us to be able to link to them, for example, 106 00:04:57,314 --> 00:04:59,957 so no one can say "I'm putting up free content..." 107 00:04:59,957 --> 00:05:04,253 "...but you can't send your readers here, because I hate you," et cetera. 108 00:05:04,253 --> 00:05:07,759 The other one is that he made it completely, completely free. 109 00:05:07,759 --> 00:05:11,852 So in the world of inter--[fumbles for words]--programming 110 00:05:11,852 --> 00:05:13,820 the most free thing is generally considered 111 00:05:13,820 --> 00:05:17,556 to be the GPL [General Public License]: open-source, free software licenses. 112 00:05:17,556 --> 00:05:19,651 uh, and Tim Berners-Lee actually almost used 113 00:05:19,651 --> 00:05:22,545 the GPL, because he wanted the web software 114 00:05:22,545 --> 00:05:23,884 he was building to be free. 115 00:05:23,884 --> 00:05:26,220 But at the last minute he actually changed his mind 116 00:05:26,220 --> 00:05:28,130 and made it full public domain, 117 00:05:28,130 --> 00:05:32,980 because in certain ways, the GPL is actually more restrictive, 118 00:05:32,980 --> 00:05:33,850 because it forces other people - 119 00:05:33,850 --> 00:05:35,390 like, certain commercial actors 120 00:05:35,390 --> 00:05:39,835 wouldn't have wanted to use web technology if it were GPL, 121 00:05:39,835 --> 00:05:41,286 so he made it full public domain, 122 00:05:41,286 --> 00:05:44,587 and then from there went on to make all of the standards 123 00:05:44,587 --> 00:05:48,698 as open and, uh, general and free as possible. 124 00:05:48,698 --> 00:05:51,987 Uh. So that's my extremely brief history of the internet. 125 00:05:51,987 --> 00:05:54,650 If anyone is curious, he wrote a wonderful book 126 00:05:54,650 --> 00:05:57,115 called "Weaving the Web" about his experiences 127 00:05:57,115 --> 00:05:59,756 [enticing tone] As you can see, it's short! 128 00:05:59,756 --> 00:06:02,807 And he has lots of interesting technical information in it 129 00:06:02,807 --> 00:06:05,852 without being overwhelming. 130 00:06:05,852 --> 00:06:07,156 It's very approachable 131 00:06:07,156 --> 00:06:08,883 and he's a really interesting person 132 00:06:08,883 --> 00:06:10,555 and it - the book is much better than his tweets, 133 00:06:10,555 --> 00:06:12,607 which are usually incoherent. 134 00:06:12,607 --> 00:06:15,757 [one of the participants huffs out a "whew"] 135 00:06:15,757 --> 00:06:17,626 Ellery: Ouch! Jeremy [?]: A few minutes? 136 00:06:17,626 --> 00:06:18,951 Ellery: Thanks, that was - that was great, Jer! 137 00:06:18,951 --> 00:06:21,336 Ellery: I mean, I think that that helps 138 00:06:21,336 --> 00:06:24,370 um, in conversations about internet policy, 139 00:06:24,370 --> 00:06:26,753 and internet governance, there's a lot of emphasis 140 00:06:26,753 --> 00:06:31,727 on the ability to, kinda, create and innovate without permission? 141 00:06:31,727 --> 00:06:36,796 Like, for everybody to be able to build parts of the web. 142 00:06:36,796 --> 00:06:40,268 And what you just laid out for us makes it clear 143 00:06:40,268 --> 00:06:45,594 how important [expansive gesture] the Web piece of the infrastructure is 144 00:06:45,594 --> 00:06:48,997 for that, for that capacity to become 145 00:06:48,997 --> 00:06:51,934 a real tangible thing, and somebody that - [amends] something that now 146 00:06:51,934 --> 00:06:54,598 we can do - we don't have to have 147 00:06:54,598 --> 00:07:00,738 technical expertise to kind of build our own spaces there. 148 00:07:00,738 --> 00:07:02,341 Ellery: Um. So, I wanted to - Jeremy: So um. 149 00:07:02,341 --> 00:07:04,700 Jeremy: If I could add just one more thing, sorry - 150 00:07:04,700 --> 00:07:06,700 Jeremy: I just wanted to give a couple examples 151 00:07:06,700 --> 00:07:07,998 of things that happen over the internet 152 00:07:07,998 --> 00:07:08,817 that aren't the web, 153 00:07:08,817 --> 00:07:11,334 because that was the actual initial question. 154 00:07:11,334 --> 00:07:13,670 So, one example would be torrents, 155 00:07:13,670 --> 00:07:16,878 where you're the - two computers connect to each other, 156 00:07:16,878 --> 00:07:20,102 and stream information directly, without any URLs 157 00:07:20,102 --> 00:07:22,239 being mixed into the process. 158 00:07:22,239 --> 00:07:24,533 Um, another one is - email, at its core, 159 00:07:24,533 --> 00:07:26,685 is its own communication protocol 160 00:07:26,685 --> 00:07:28,039 that doesn't have to use the web, 161 00:07:28,039 --> 00:07:32,503 although we often use web sites to access and manage our email. 162 00:07:32,503 --> 00:07:36,291 Umm. And then another one was the one right before the Web came out, 163 00:07:36,291 --> 00:07:38,799 a very popular protocol was called Gopher, 164 00:07:38,799 --> 00:07:41,470 which people liked, and sort of worked like the Web 165 00:07:41,470 --> 00:07:43,595 - you surf around and find things - 166 00:07:43,595 --> 00:07:48,740 but it actually became commercial right around the time that the web came out, 167 00:07:48,740 --> 00:07:50,554 so people would've had to start paying, 168 00:07:50,554 --> 00:07:51,934 and instead of starting to pay, 169 00:07:51,934 --> 00:07:55,477 they switched to HTTP, HTML, and the World Wide Web. 170 00:07:56,327 --> 00:07:57,932 Ellery: Thank you. 171 00:07:57,932 --> 00:08:00,900 Ellery: So I want to move to Alan, now... Um, 172 00:08:00,900 --> 00:08:06,039 Alan built the first search engine. 173 00:08:06,039 --> 00:08:11,934 And I'm kind of... like, overwhelmed, and feel sort of 174 00:08:11,934 --> 00:08:14,472 like, giddy and nervous having him here. 175 00:08:14,472 --> 00:08:16,138 Ellery: This is just - [Alan laughs] 176 00:08:16,138 --> 00:08:17,572 Ellery: This is, like, a really big deal! 177 00:08:17,572 --> 00:08:21,302 Ellery: So, Alan, just - if you could tell us - 178 00:08:21,302 --> 00:08:25,039 'cuz I think a lot of people don't know about Archie - 179 00:08:25,039 --> 00:08:27,702 um, it would be really cool just to hear 180 00:08:27,702 --> 00:08:32,532 about how you sort of - what you were doing 181 00:08:32,532 --> 00:08:35,796 that made you decide to, to do this 182 00:08:35,796 --> 00:08:40,711 and kinda what it was like, and then, I mean, everything you've seen since... 183 00:08:40,711 --> 00:08:43,071 Unfortunately we're time limited, but... 184 00:08:43,071 --> 00:08:44,604 Alan: Right. Ellery: You know. 185 00:08:44,604 --> 00:08:48,777 Alan [coughs]: Well, um, uh, well, that was back in 186 00:08:48,777 --> 00:08:57,469 1989, and, I was working as a system administrator 187 00:08:57,469 --> 00:09:00,101 for uh, McGill University - I was a grad student 188 00:09:00,101 --> 00:09:05,102 for McGill University - and um, I was responsible 189 00:09:05,102 --> 00:09:08,196 for getting software for - one of my responsibilities 190 00:09:08,196 --> 00:09:12,500 was getting software for the faculty and the students. 191 00:09:12,500 --> 00:09:17,103 And at the time, the three major protocols on the internet 192 00:09:17,103 --> 00:09:19,501 - this was pre Web, ummm - 193 00:09:19,501 --> 00:09:23,894 was, uh, Telnet, which would allow you to log in 194 00:09:23,894 --> 00:09:26,101 to a remote machine. 195 00:09:26,101 --> 00:09:29,069 Email, ah, which would allow you to communicate 196 00:09:29,069 --> 00:09:31,974 ah, with another - as we do now, with a, with a 197 00:09:31,974 --> 00:09:34,500 remote machines, plural, 198 00:09:34,500 --> 00:09:38,331 and, and FTP, which was the File Transfer Protocol, 199 00:09:38,331 --> 00:09:41,870 which allowed you to move, ah, data files, or files 200 00:09:41,870 --> 00:09:44,469 from one machine to another. 201 00:09:44,469 --> 00:09:47,373 And at the time what we had was - people had made 202 00:09:47,373 --> 00:09:50,996 - remember it was a non-commercial internet at the time - 203 00:09:50,996 --> 00:09:54,340 - actually, commercial traffic was forbidden on the internet at the time, 204 00:09:54,340 --> 00:09:57,167 because it was run by the National Science Foundation 205 00:09:57,167 --> 00:09:59,103 and it was using educational money 206 00:09:59,103 --> 00:10:02,671 and therefore other than companies with 207 00:10:02,671 --> 00:10:07,037 research arms, like IBM and HP and those kinds of things, 208 00:10:07,037 --> 00:10:09,071 we didn't have any commercial traffic on the internet, 209 00:10:09,071 --> 00:10:13,137 which nowadays seems kind of amazing to even think about - 210 00:10:13,137 --> 00:10:18,532 and, ah, so what people did, were to provide 211 00:10:18,532 --> 00:10:21,164 to provide free space on their machines 212 00:10:21,164 --> 00:10:22,966 - and remember, you know, at the time, 213 00:10:22,966 --> 00:10:26,697 a big disc would be a megabyte, you know - 214 00:10:26,697 --> 00:10:32,566 and so people would provide common repositories 215 00:10:32,566 --> 00:10:37,203 that you could deposit programs that you had written 216 00:10:37,203 --> 00:10:42,236 datafiles, and documents, and that kinda stuff. 217 00:10:42,236 --> 00:10:44,537 into these central repositories that were 218 00:10:44,537 --> 00:10:46,365 spread around the internet. 219 00:10:46,365 --> 00:10:48,536 Then other people could then retrieve them. 220 00:10:48,536 --> 00:10:51,238 And so I spent a lot of my time trying to locate 221 00:10:51,238 --> 00:10:56,123 software, or the information that my, the students and the faculty were trying to find, 222 00:10:56,123 --> 00:10:57,459 and I got tired of it. 223 00:10:57,459 --> 00:11:00,828 and since I'm lazy and a geek, I... 224 00:11:00,828 --> 00:11:04,628 I automated the process. 225 00:11:04,639 --> 00:11:08,671 I got - instead of doing it manually, I had a bunch 226 00:11:08,671 --> 00:11:10,960 of scripts wake up in the middle of the night every night, 227 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:14,287 and go out and index these files. 228 00:11:14,287 --> 00:11:17,002 Now remember all of this was just file listings. 229 00:11:17,002 --> 00:11:21,295 It's not like Google, it's not like a search engine would be today, 230 00:11:21,295 --> 00:11:26,396 it is just... filenames. All it was, was filenames. 231 00:11:26,396 --> 00:11:28,271 And so what it would do 232 00:11:28,271 --> 00:11:29,616 was it would go out every night, 233 00:11:29,616 --> 00:11:31,592 list all the filenames in all the repositories, 234 00:11:31,592 --> 00:11:35,401 and allow you to search lists of filenames. 235 00:11:35,401 --> 00:11:36,833 And I only used it for myself! 236 00:11:36,833 --> 00:11:42,032 I only used it, um, uh, for my own personal use. 237 00:11:42,032 --> 00:11:44,339 Um, and at one point my boss, 238 00:11:44,339 --> 00:11:47,478 who was also a student, a grad student at the University, 239 00:11:47,478 --> 00:11:51,508 let Peter Deutsch let it be known that, um, 240 00:11:51,508 --> 00:11:53,771 somebody was asking for, you know, 241 00:11:53,771 --> 00:11:58,373 could they, could somebody tell them where, um, 242 00:11:58,373 --> 00:12:01,001 y'know, a particular piece of software was. 243 00:12:01,001 --> 00:12:07,475 And, uh, uh, we, um, uh... we, you know, 244 00:12:07,475 --> 00:12:09,437 he came and asked me, he knew we had this database 245 00:12:09,437 --> 00:12:12,641 and he came and asked me if I could help out. 246 00:12:12,641 --> 00:12:14,170 And I gave it to him, and if, y'know, 247 00:12:14,170 --> 00:12:17,139 half a sec- half a minute later I had the information, 248 00:12:17,139 --> 00:12:22,508 and so he put this posting online, and, umm. 249 00:12:22,508 --> 00:12:24,065 People then started asking, 250 00:12:24,065 --> 00:12:26,742 "Well, can you find this for me?" 251 00:12:26,742 --> 00:12:28,107 And, you know, all these manual requests! 252 00:12:28,107 --> 00:12:31,308 Basically - either through email, or UseNet postings - 253 00:12:31,308 --> 00:12:32,833 - which is what we were using at the time - 254 00:12:32,833 --> 00:12:34,737 we thought, well, this is silly, 255 00:12:34,737 --> 00:12:36,570 there's no point doing these things manually 256 00:12:36,570 --> 00:12:40,920 when we can just allow people access to the database itself. 257 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:43,574 And in a moment of insanity, 258 00:12:43,574 --> 00:12:45,138 we had to come up with a name for it, 259 00:12:45,138 --> 00:12:47,431 and I said, "Okay, well, let's just call it ARCHI-E," 260 00:12:47,431 --> 00:12:50,801 which is "ARCHIVE" without the V 261 00:12:50,801 --> 00:12:55,137 And, ah, and within about three or four months 262 00:12:55,137 --> 00:12:57,267 we were consuming about half 263 00:12:57,267 --> 00:13:00,972 of all of the traffic to eastern Canada [where McGill University is] 264 00:13:00,972 --> 00:13:04,907 as this search engine became - as people, y'know - 265 00:13:04,907 --> 00:13:05,509 - word of mouth - 266 00:13:05,509 --> 00:13:08,038 you know, people who know about Archie 267 00:13:08,038 --> 00:13:11,173 are generally people of a certain age... 268 00:13:11,173 --> 00:13:13,308 ...I won't mention what that age is, but 269 00:13:13,308 --> 00:13:17,140 it's generally people who were in university 270 00:13:17,140 --> 00:13:19,539 or working on the internet, so it would have been 271 00:13:19,539 --> 00:13:20,837 so it would have been research people, 272 00:13:20,837 --> 00:13:23,729 people in academia in the early nineties. 273 00:13:23,729 --> 00:13:28,827 So Archie lasted for about, uh, [hems and haws] 274 00:13:28,827 --> 00:13:31,370 Five years. Four or five years. 275 00:13:31,370 --> 00:13:34,510 And, um, it only indexed FTP archives. 276 00:13:34,510 --> 00:13:36,836 It never indexed the web. 277 00:13:36,836 --> 00:13:40,192 Now, I went on, as Archie became popular, 278 00:13:40,192 --> 00:13:43,308 and I got more involved in the standards process 279 00:13:43,308 --> 00:13:44,140 and that kind of stuff, 280 00:13:44,140 --> 00:13:47,170 I worked, uh, fairly closely with Tim Berners-Lee 281 00:13:47,170 --> 00:13:49,836 to, uh, to standardize - for example, 282 00:13:49,836 --> 00:13:52,063 I did the - I ran the committee 283 00:13:52,063 --> 00:13:54,579 at the standard-setting body for the internet, 284 00:13:54,579 --> 00:13:56,507 which is the IETF [Internet Engineering Task Force] 285 00:13:56,507 --> 00:13:58,571 to standardize URLs. 286 00:13:58,571 --> 00:14:00,107 Because Tim had come up with 287 00:14:00,107 --> 00:14:02,546 a set of rules for URLS, 288 00:14:02,546 --> 00:14:04,803 and as we looked at expanding that 289 00:14:04,803 --> 00:14:07,539 to a larger range of resources, 290 00:14:07,539 --> 00:14:10,369 we realized that those rules did not cover 291 00:14:10,369 --> 00:14:11,939 all of the cases. 292 00:14:11,939 --> 00:14:14,706 So, we worked, for, uh - Tim brought the, 293 00:14:14,706 --> 00:14:17,033 the specification, his original specification, 294 00:14:17,033 --> 00:14:20,601 to the group, and we worked on it for, 295 00:14:20,601 --> 00:14:22,971 I don't remember, nine months to a year or so, 296 00:14:22,971 --> 00:14:25,067 to come up with a standard for URLs. 297 00:14:25,067 --> 00:14:26,706 So all of those URLs that we use, 298 00:14:26,706 --> 00:14:28,233 day in and day out, 299 00:14:28,233 --> 00:14:30,339 were, were standardized as a result 300 00:14:30,339 --> 00:14:31,433 of that committee. 301 00:14:31,433 --> 00:14:35,014 So, it was, um, it was a really exciting time, 302 00:14:35,014 --> 00:14:38,540 it was a time of, y'know - the question I always get 303 00:14:38,540 --> 00:14:41,267 is why didn't make a billion dollars off of it? 304 00:14:41,267 --> 00:14:42,707 And I keep reminding people that 305 00:14:42,707 --> 00:14:45,263 most of the people who were pioneers - 306 00:14:45,263 --> 00:14:48,202 with the exception of Marc Andreessen [who co-founded Netscape] 307 00:14:48,202 --> 00:14:54,661 uhm, didn't make a whole lot of money off of these, these original things. 308 00:14:54,661 --> 00:14:58,573 We were working in an environment which, uh, 309 00:14:58,573 --> 00:15:02,633 put a premium on getting the technology out there 310 00:15:02,633 --> 00:15:05,730 making it as widely available as possible - 311 00:15:05,730 --> 00:15:08,340 Tim's big coup with CERN, [European Organization for Nuclear Research] 312 00:15:08,340 --> 00:15:12,151 which is the organization that he worked for when he first developed the web , 313 00:15:12,151 --> 00:15:17,938 was to get CERN to put, um, the web software 314 00:15:17,938 --> 00:15:20,708 that he had created into the public domain. 315 00:15:20,708 --> 00:15:22,308 So it wasn't even his to give away, 316 00:15:22,308 --> 00:15:24,771 it was CERN's property. 317 00:15:24,771 --> 00:15:28,723 As an employee [of CERN], [Tim's work] would actually belong to CERN. 318 00:15:28,723 --> 00:15:36,041 Uh. He, he actually convinced them to put it in the public domain 319 00:15:36,041 --> 00:15:38,419 and that's what really, uh, y'know 320 00:15:38,419 --> 00:15:41,266 set [amends] lit a fire under the whole thing. 321 00:15:41,266 --> 00:15:46,203 At the time, the philosophy behind it 322 00:15:46,203 --> 00:15:47,906 was really, "Let's get this out there, 323 00:15:47,906 --> 00:15:49,067 "..this is a brave new world," 324 00:15:49,067 --> 00:15:52,330 "..we don't know what all of this technology's gonna be used for!" 325 00:15:52,330 --> 00:15:54,174 I don't think any of us - including Tim - 326 00:15:54,174 --> 00:15:56,266 imagined what it would become. 327 00:15:56,266 --> 00:16:00,139 Y'know, he, he always had a much grander vision of it 328 00:16:00,139 --> 00:16:02,170 but I don't - I can guarantee you - 329 00:16:02,170 --> 00:16:05,002 I've spent many, many, many, many an hour 330 00:16:05,002 --> 00:16:07,190 with drinks, in bars, drinking with Tim, 331 00:16:07,190 --> 00:16:09,971 and I can guarantee you that he did not 332 00:16:09,971 --> 00:16:12,236 - Sir Tim, by the way, Sir Tim - 333 00:16:12,236 --> 00:16:17,203 Um. I should - y'know, he even, he, 334 00:16:17,203 --> 00:16:19,941 I don't think, had any idea that it would basically 335 00:16:19,941 --> 00:16:21,002 take over the world. 336 00:16:21,002 --> 00:16:23,096 and half the world's population would be using 337 00:16:23,096 --> 00:16:25,221 the system that he created, twenty years later. 338 00:16:25,221 --> 00:16:27,336 [corrects himself] Twenty-five years later. 339 00:16:29,276 --> 00:16:30,691 Ellery: Thank you so much. 340 00:16:30,691 --> 00:16:34,433 Ellery: I mean, so, speaking of which, yeah, 341 00:16:34,433 --> 00:16:41,639 it has changed, and, I guess, [chuckles], taken over, in a way, 342 00:16:41,639 --> 00:16:45,666 um, that we, I'm sure, wouldn't have expected. 343 00:16:45,666 --> 00:16:51,682 I wanted to now move to Josh and Renata, 344 00:16:51,682 --> 00:16:54,521 who are both [something falls to the floor] 345 00:16:54,521 --> 00:16:57,139 very [she looks at the fallen object, winces] 346 00:16:57,139 --> 00:17:03,369 committed, involved leaders in what has now 347 00:17:03,369 --> 00:17:08,467 become a global effort to - I mean, 348 00:17:08,467 --> 00:17:09,580 the way that we're sort of putting it 349 00:17:09,580 --> 00:17:10,867 is "save the internet" 350 00:17:10,867 --> 00:17:13,908 or, preserve and protect the openness 351 00:17:13,908 --> 00:17:21,233 and all of the rights to free expression, access, um, 352 00:17:21,233 --> 00:17:27,095 and also privacy, that we all feel are embedded 353 00:17:27,095 --> 00:17:29,740 actually, in the way that it was built. 354 00:17:29,740 --> 00:17:33,338 So, Josh, I wondered if you could explain to us 355 00:17:33,338 --> 00:17:37,957 really briefly what your role is in your organization 356 00:17:37,957 --> 00:17:41,706 and then also, um, tell us about 357 00:17:41,706 --> 00:17:46,508 the Web We Want campaign, and explain, y'know, 358 00:17:46,508 --> 00:17:50,854 how you think this rights movement is shaping up 359 00:17:50,854 --> 00:17:54,771 and if you could kind of link it with everything that 360 00:17:54,771 --> 00:17:56,467 Alan just laid out for us, 361 00:17:56,467 --> 00:17:58,522 that would be really wonderful. 362 00:17:58,522 --> 00:17:59,538 Josh Levy: I'll do my best. 363 00:17:59,538 --> 00:18:01,742 Josh: So, my name is Josh Levy, 364 00:18:01,742 --> 00:18:03,307 Josh: I'm from Free Press, 365 00:18:03,307 --> 00:18:06,530 we're a U.S.-based organization, 366 00:18:06,530 --> 00:18:11,347 we advocate for better technology and media policy 367 00:18:11,347 --> 00:18:14,013 that allows for an open internet, 368 00:18:14,013 --> 00:18:16,938 for better representation of people in the media, 369 00:18:16,938 --> 00:18:19,947 including in, in media that's online, 370 00:18:19,947 --> 00:18:23,402 and for open access to information. 371 00:18:23,402 --> 00:18:26,371 And this issue that we're talking about - 372 00:18:26,371 --> 00:18:27,834 the anniversary of the web - 373 00:18:27,834 --> 00:18:30,173 is really central to our work, 374 00:18:30,173 --> 00:18:32,571 because we've been fighting, for example, 375 00:18:32,571 --> 00:18:38,770 to pass strong Net Neutrality policies here in the U.S. for years. 376 00:18:38,770 --> 00:18:42,107 Basically ever since the issue first came up, in the mid-2000s, 377 00:18:42,107 --> 00:18:44,234 when we saw big internet service providers 378 00:18:44,234 --> 00:18:48,200 blocking traffic coming from certain destinations. 379 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:50,139 And that fight is ongoing. 380 00:18:50,139 --> 00:18:52,258 The FCC, the Federal Communications Commission here in the U.S., 381 00:18:52,258 --> 00:18:56,938 which is charged with overseeing communications and technology policy, 382 00:18:56,938 --> 00:18:59,036 passed rules in 2010 383 00:18:59,036 --> 00:19:01,402 that were intended to protect Net Neutrality 384 00:19:01,402 --> 00:19:05,526 but were passed in a way that we knew wasn't gonna hold up in court. 385 00:19:05,526 --> 00:19:08,553 And we were - unfortunately, 386 00:19:08,553 --> 00:19:11,800 we saw that happen earlier this year, 387 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:14,729 when a court in Washington, D.C., threw out those rules, 388 00:19:14,729 --> 00:19:18,540 effectively throwing out any Net Neutrality protections that people have. 389 00:19:18,540 --> 00:19:21,937 And so this gets back to what Jeremy was saying 390 00:19:21,937 --> 00:19:23,677 the "internet" versus the "Web," right? 391 00:19:23,677 --> 00:19:25,541 So when we're talking about Net Neutrality, 392 00:19:25,541 --> 00:19:27,032 which I hope a lot of people have heard of, 393 00:19:27,032 --> 00:19:31,610 this concept that we should be able to access any information that we want online 394 00:19:31,610 --> 00:19:37,539 without anybody getting in the way, whether that's a big company or the government - 395 00:19:37,539 --> 00:19:43,585 that is, essentially, that's a policy that applies to the internet: 396 00:19:43,585 --> 00:19:46,899 to the ways in which all of our computers connect to each other. 397 00:19:46,899 --> 00:19:50,638 And we have this basic understanding that the internet should be free and open, 398 00:19:50,638 --> 00:19:53,434 meaning that my computer should be able to connect 399 00:19:53,434 --> 00:19:55,769 to yours in this global network of computers 400 00:19:55,769 --> 00:19:58,942 without any entity inspecting the traffic, 401 00:19:58,942 --> 00:20:01,267 trying to understand what you're trying to access, 402 00:20:01,267 --> 00:20:03,073 and, based on that understanding, block it. 403 00:20:03,073 --> 00:20:06,040 So if it doesn't like the video you're watching, [it would be] slowing it down; 404 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:08,971 or, if it doesn't like the application you're using, blocking it - 405 00:20:08,971 --> 00:20:11,140 - that, that should be totally unacceptable. 406 00:20:11,140 --> 00:20:14,651 We should be able to connect to whatever we want in whatever way we want. 407 00:20:14,651 --> 00:20:16,342 And that includes using the Web, right? 408 00:20:16,342 --> 00:20:20,655 So the Web is basically an application that rides over the internet. 409 00:20:20,655 --> 00:20:22,940 The internet's this global network, 410 00:20:22,940 --> 00:20:25,836 the Web is just one application that uses that global network. 411 00:20:25,836 --> 00:20:28,540 And so it's essential - Net Neutrality is essential to using the web, 412 00:20:28,540 --> 00:20:30,515 because as we've seen today, 413 00:20:30,515 --> 00:20:33,231 using the web is so essential to all of our lives 414 00:20:33,231 --> 00:20:39,740 and big companies, and governments, have so much power over it that they can block all kinds of things: 415 00:20:39,740 --> 00:20:43,713 political speech, videos that we wanna watch, pictures of cats, et cetera. 416 00:20:43,713 --> 00:20:46,404 So. Um, anyway, so that's what Free Press is doing, 417 00:20:46,404 --> 00:20:49,664 in large part, trying to protect that notion of Net Neutrality. 418 00:20:49,664 --> 00:20:53,779 And out of that fight came a number of campaigns, 419 00:20:53,779 --> 00:20:55,958 including the campaign to stop SOPA [Stop Online Piracy Act] 420 00:20:55,958 --> 00:20:59,337 - which was the bad copyright bill a couple years ago here in the U.S. - 421 00:20:59,337 --> 00:21:01,521 and out of that came a realization, I think, 422 00:21:01,521 --> 00:21:02,797 here in the U.S. but [also] around the world, 423 00:21:02,797 --> 00:21:05,557 that we all needed to kind of talk to each other a little bit more, 424 00:21:05,557 --> 00:21:09,509 those of us who have been advocating for a free and open internet for a long time. 425 00:21:09,509 --> 00:21:10,906 And so we started doing that: 426 00:21:10,906 --> 00:21:14,170 Free Press led the development the drafting of 427 00:21:14,170 --> 00:21:16,282 something called the "Declaration of Internet Freedom" 428 00:21:16,282 --> 00:21:21,822 which was a simple statement of principles about our right to access information online. 429 00:21:21,822 --> 00:21:26,907 And out of that came a really fruitful relationship with Tim Berners-Lee's organization, 430 00:21:26,907 --> 00:21:29,329 - the World Wide Web Foundation - 431 00:21:29,329 --> 00:21:33,649 and we discussed ways in which we could move that effort forward, 432 00:21:33,649 --> 00:21:35,713 this Declaration effort, 433 00:21:35,713 --> 00:21:40,170 to involve more groups around the world, more people around the world, 434 00:21:40,170 --> 00:21:44,144 and to guarantee that we all have access to information 435 00:21:44,144 --> 00:21:47,278 and that that access, and the principles behind it, 436 00:21:47,278 --> 00:21:52,390 are not the domain of any one country, or any one group of individuals. 437 00:21:52,390 --> 00:21:55,575 So, out of that came this great project, the Web We Want, 438 00:21:55,575 --> 00:21:57,621 which Renata's gonna tell you more about. 439 00:21:57,621 --> 00:21:59,665 which is seeking to do just that: 440 00:21:59,665 --> 00:22:05,468 to pass laws, around the world, that will protect people's right to access the internet 441 00:22:05,468 --> 00:22:09,648 and to access content on the Web without anybody getting in the way, 442 00:22:09,648 --> 00:22:14,677 and, uh, it's building steam very, very quickly: 443 00:22:14,677 --> 00:22:18,035 we are working with countries around the world to develop their own set of principles 444 00:22:18,035 --> 00:22:20,107 regarding the web and our rights on it, 445 00:22:20,107 --> 00:22:26,068 and organizing lots and lots of organizations that are really excited about getting involved in this effort 446 00:22:26,068 --> 00:22:32,285 and our dream of uniting groups who are all fighting the same fight but in different parts of the world 447 00:22:32,285 --> 00:22:33,939 is kind of coming to life. 448 00:22:33,939 --> 00:22:36,090 So, I'll let Renata tell you more about that. 449 00:22:36,090 --> 00:22:38,241 [Caveat: Renata is not a native English speaker, so verbatim transcription of her speech doesn't always make perfect sense.] 450 00:22:38,241 --> 00:22:40,393 Renata Avila: Eum, hello everyone, everybody, 451 00:22:40,393 --> 00:22:42,382 it's really good to be here? [she tends to uptalk] 452 00:22:42,382 --> 00:22:44,566 Renata: Ah, so: the Web We Want. 453 00:22:44,566 --> 00:22:50,711 The Web We Want is a coalition of [gestures as she searches for words] 454 00:22:50,711 --> 00:22:54,128 very important groups of organizations from civil society 455 00:22:54,128 --> 00:22:57,072 I will mention of them: 456 00:22:57,072 --> 00:22:59,814 Access, that many of us are familiar with; [AccessNow.org] 457 00:22:59,814 --> 00:23:01,914 APC; [Association for Progressive Communications] 458 00:23:01,914 --> 00:23:04,805 Free Press, from the U.S.; 459 00:23:04,805 --> 00:23:10,085 7iber, in Jordan; the Open Source Association, in Jordan as well; 460 00:23:10,085 --> 00:23:12,916 [ums and ers] 461 00:23:12,916 --> 00:23:20,521 Consumers International; Article 19; Fundação Getulio Vargas, in Brazil; 462 00:23:20,521 --> 00:23:25,227 IT for Change, in India; Public Knowledge, in the U.S.; 463 00:23:25,227 --> 00:23:30,879 and we, we have a - we got the confirmation that Open Knowledge Foundation, 464 00:23:30,879 --> 00:23:35,793 which has affiliates all over the world, will join as well. 465 00:23:35,793 --> 00:23:37,683 So, basically, the campaign... 466 00:23:37,683 --> 00:23:40,260 ..what we are trying to achieve here 467 00:23:40,260 --> 00:23:43,084 is to move from the reactions, 468 00:23:43,084 --> 00:23:46,483 the constant reactions that the civil society/ we have, 469 00:23:46,483 --> 00:23:47,813 to a proactive approach. 470 00:23:47,813 --> 00:23:52,997 To have a positive agenda, to have the safe first, in different countries. 471 00:23:52,997 --> 00:23:55,190 And also globally. 472 00:23:55,190 --> 00:23:59,806 And what happens is usually that we come together last minute - 473 00:23:59,806 --> 00:24:03,725 we react to bad legislation being proposed, 474 00:24:03,725 --> 00:24:13,690 by either specific groups of interest, or a very creative but not so well informed legislator... 475 00:24:13,690 --> 00:24:17,356 And so, in the last, let's say, five years, 476 00:24:17,356 --> 00:24:22,014 we have seen so many mobilizations against, against, against. 477 00:24:22,014 --> 00:24:27,252 So we think that yes, it's good to have a reaction to bad legislation, 478 00:24:27,252 --> 00:24:31,483 but it's much more effective to have a proposal coming from civil society. 479 00:24:31,483 --> 00:24:34,945 And not only - like, civil society understood as a - 480 00:24:34,945 --> 00:24:40,283 a more extended way as we usually use it in internet governance - 481 00:24:40,283 --> 00:24:45,554 but civil society involving everyone in a fight for our rights. 482 00:24:45,554 --> 00:24:53,266 And so we have different activities and different actions to achieve that. 483 00:24:53,266 --> 00:24:59,967 The first would be intense work in specific countries where we [gestures] 484 00:24:59,967 --> 00:25:04,682 together, all the advisory committee, so that there's something going on, 485 00:25:04,682 --> 00:25:08,878 some movement in civil society, and there's some action there. 486 00:25:08,878 --> 00:25:16,546 So, the list of the countries that we have decided will be like the first "grant-ees" 487 00:25:16,546 --> 00:25:22,479 of um, more stronger support from the punt, uh, the, the, where we want manages...? will be: 488 00:25:22,479 --> 00:25:32,483 Japan, Indonesia, Philippines, India, Bangladesh, Brazil, Ecuador, the U.K., Tunisia, Nigeria, Kenya... 489 00:25:32,483 --> 00:25:34,084 ...and South Africa. 490 00:25:34,084 --> 00:25:38,265 So, as you see, it's mostly countries of the global south. 491 00:25:38,265 --> 00:25:42,679 Also the U.K., because we saw an opportunity there, 492 00:25:42,679 --> 00:25:47,642 and we also saw a regression of rights. 493 00:25:47,642 --> 00:25:52,351 It is very interesting to see how the deterioration of rights in a country - 494 00:25:52,351 --> 00:25:54,363 - even in a democratic country - 495 00:25:54,363 --> 00:25:56,585 in the last ten years, has been very extreme. 496 00:25:56,585 --> 00:26:01,375 And this is really affecting the region. 497 00:26:01,375 --> 00:26:04,470 Apart from this intense work that we are planning to do, 498 00:26:04,470 --> 00:26:08,756 having national dialogues in these countries I informed you of, 499 00:26:08,756 --> 00:26:15,680 we have also - we are launching, on the 21st of March, a mini-grant round. 500 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,274 The mini-grants are for everyone to apply, 501 00:26:18,274 --> 00:26:21,118 so you don't need to be an NGO, [Non-Governmental Organization] 502 00:26:21,118 --> 00:26:24,853 you don't need to be an expert to apply for these grants. 503 00:26:24,853 --> 00:26:26,889 What we want is normal people - 504 00:26:26,889 --> 00:26:29,783 - artists, musicians, everyone - 505 00:26:29,783 --> 00:26:35,812 to be involved in this and to, eh, [unintelligible] to celebrate, to party for the Web! 506 00:26:35,812 --> 00:26:38,679 But at the same time that we celebrate the Web, 507 00:26:38,679 --> 00:26:41,546 we start a conversation on what is the web we want? 508 00:26:41,546 --> 00:26:44,414 What is - [struggles for words] 509 00:26:44,414 --> 00:26:52,731 - which values, which form we want, which way we want to protect the Web in our countries. 510 00:26:52,731 --> 00:26:54,348 The free and open Web. 511 00:26:54,348 --> 00:27:02,215 And so it can be something as simple as a screening in a public space? 512 00:27:02,215 --> 00:27:07,444 It can be more elaborate, like a talk at your local library? 513 00:27:07,444 --> 00:27:09,265 It can be anything you want, 514 00:27:09,265 --> 00:27:12,846 it can be even a sculpture in the middle of a city. 515 00:27:12,846 --> 00:27:17,317 ah, telling people what the Web represents [means] to you. 516 00:27:17,317 --> 00:27:22,597 But also, we know that we cannot abandon those fighting "against." 517 00:27:22,597 --> 00:27:27,276 So we have rapid response grants. 518 00:27:27,276 --> 00:27:30,684 And these rapid response grants are for, eh - 519 00:27:30,684 --> 00:27:35,248 we, we have identified that sometimes to make something happen, 520 00:27:35,248 --> 00:27:36,532 you need some resources. 521 00:27:36,532 --> 00:27:38,347 Especially in some countries in the global south. 522 00:27:38,347 --> 00:27:43,014 So. For example, ehh, think about a very bad surveillance law, 523 00:27:43,014 --> 00:27:45,708 about to be passed in, oh, Nicaragua. 524 00:27:45,708 --> 00:27:48,379 So, this rapid response - 525 00:27:48,379 --> 00:27:50,584 - which will be open during the whole year - 526 00:27:50,584 --> 00:27:55,147 - will allow activists to say, "Hey, listen. This very bad thing is happening..." 527 00:27:55,147 --> 00:27:59,385 "..and we think that if we gather a group of people together..." 528 00:27:59,385 --> 00:28:05,013 "..and we print, uh, leaflets, and we make a short video about that..." 529 00:28:05,013 --> 00:28:10,383 "..we have a good chance to shift the opinions to our side..." 530 00:28:10,383 --> 00:28:11,681 "..the side of right." 531 00:28:11,681 --> 00:28:14,087 And so that will be open as well. 532 00:28:14,087 --> 00:28:20,999 that will be open on the 21st of March, and remain open the whole year. 533 00:28:20,999 --> 00:28:27,881 And what we will achieve at the end of the year is a very interesting collection of experiences. 534 00:28:27,881 --> 00:28:31,083 We will see that - [finds her words] 535 00:28:31,083 --> 00:28:35,416 what is the Web people want, in the specific countries, 536 00:28:35,416 --> 00:28:38,982 with more intense follow-up mechanism and dialogue. 537 00:28:38,982 --> 00:28:42,823 We will also see which techniques are the best for rapid response 538 00:28:42,823 --> 00:28:45,914 when there's a threat to the open internet. 539 00:28:45,914 --> 00:28:50,717 by the collection of experiences from the rapid response grants. 540 00:28:50,717 --> 00:28:58,204 And also we will learn from ways to engage the broader public in our topics and in our issues. 541 00:28:58,204 --> 00:29:04,829 So I am very hopeful that especially artists, or very creative activists, 542 00:29:04,829 --> 00:29:07,914 will find ways to engage the broader public. 543 00:29:07,914 --> 00:29:10,916 Because we need - this is ours. 544 00:29:10,916 --> 00:29:15,452 The future of [the open internet] depends on us preserving it. 545 00:29:15,452 --> 00:29:22,582 And the more people invited to this fight, the stronger we get. 546 00:29:22,582 --> 00:29:34,041 At last, I will... I would like to invite everyone to be engaged the way that you can engage. 547 00:29:34,041 --> 00:29:37,083 And to apply for these grants! 548 00:29:37,083 --> 00:29:42,317 But not only to apply for these grants - also, to make things your own. 549 00:29:42,317 --> 00:29:47,148 If you want to write an article, if you are an expert on specific topics, 550 00:29:47,148 --> 00:29:50,982 please write articles, please share your knowledge with people, 551 00:29:50,982 --> 00:29:54,207 and please engage, and don't be apathetic. 552 00:29:54,207 --> 00:29:58,214 Because the Web offers us - 553 00:29:58,214 --> 00:29:59,513 - and the internet offers us - 554 00:29:59,513 --> 00:30:02,513 - this opportunity to communicate and connect beyond borders, 555 00:30:02,513 --> 00:30:08,378 and I think that, slowly, we are building this platform - 556 00:30:08,378 --> 00:30:13,243 - which is not a website but is a platform made of [amends her description] collective – 557 00:30:13,243 --> 00:30:22,546 - that is ready to jump and to take actions to save the web any moment that it is under threat. 558 00:30:22,546 --> 00:30:26,947 So. Yes. That's it. 559 00:30:26,947 --> 00:30:29,482 Ellery [laughs]: Thanks. 560 00:30:29,482 --> 00:30:32,314 Ellery: It's really - I think it's great to sort of, to have that out there, 561 00:30:32,314 --> 00:30:36,803 for people to understand all the ways that they can get involved. 562 00:30:36,803 --> 00:30:43,685 One thing I - so, in thinking about how can we make a little show today that would celebrate the web, 563 00:30:43,685 --> 00:30:47,579 I couldn't help but think about Global Voices, 564 00:30:47,579 --> 00:30:50,808 because that's what brings us all together here, 565 00:30:50,808 --> 00:30:55,388 and, I think that our community, in so many ways - 566 00:30:55,388 --> 00:30:59,346 I mean, we couldn't exist, wouldn't exist, without the Web, 567 00:30:59,346 --> 00:31:05,314 but there are also so many particular attributes of it, 568 00:31:05,314 --> 00:31:08,011 when it comes to access and openness, 569 00:31:08,011 --> 00:31:10,348 that allow us to do all the things that we do, 570 00:31:10,348 --> 00:31:13,548 like, including this hangout, right now. 571 00:31:13,548 --> 00:31:16,304 Um. So I wanted to ask - 572 00:31:16,304 --> 00:31:17,830 - although we're really short on time, 573 00:31:17,830 --> 00:31:21,426 so I'm gonna have to ask you to be super brief, but - 574 00:31:21,426 --> 00:31:23,884 Jer, you, I kind of, I said, is there... 575 00:31:23,884 --> 00:31:29,946 ...could you talk a little bit about what, if you look at Global Voices, 576 00:31:29,946 --> 00:31:34,994 and sort of the way that it's grown up, um, with the internet - 577 00:31:34,994 --> 00:31:36,445 - you've been here since the beginning, 578 00:31:36,445 --> 00:31:40,463 so you can kind of - just, just tell us a bit. 579 00:31:40,463 --> 00:31:42,619 Jeremy Clark: Okay, well, uh, 580 00:31:42,619 --> 00:31:47,517 Jeremy: I actually haven't been with Global Voices since the very beginning, 581 00:31:47,517 --> 00:31:49,383 but I joined near the start. 582 00:31:49,383 --> 00:31:51,215 So, maybe you can see on my screen - 583 00:31:51,215 --> 00:31:54,754 - Global Voices was started actually in 2005, um, 584 00:31:54,754 --> 00:31:57,482 and one of the great things about the story is that 585 00:31:57,482 --> 00:32:02,550 it was started quickly and easily by Ethan Zuckerman 586 00:32:02,550 --> 00:32:06,448 who set up the original site, uh, 587 00:32:06,448 --> 00:32:09,765 along with Rebecca McKinnon, who worked on the idea and the content, 588 00:32:09,765 --> 00:32:14,118 and so, they actually used WordPress, which is the system we still use today, 589 00:32:14,118 --> 00:32:18,995 and which is very similar to the Web in a lot of senses 590 00:32:18,995 --> 00:32:21,746 because it's a distributed project, 591 00:32:21,746 --> 00:32:23,514 people all around the world develop it, 592 00:32:23,514 --> 00:32:25,231 it's open-source, and it's free, 593 00:32:25,231 --> 00:32:32,082 and it is so not by convenience but very explicit philosophy and they're very active in defending that, 594 00:32:32,082 --> 00:32:37,270 and also in another way: uh, originally, at the time, 595 00:32:37,270 --> 00:32:40,352 there was a very popular free software called Movable Type 596 00:32:40,352 --> 00:32:42,444 which became commercial, 597 00:32:42,444 --> 00:32:46,516 and instead of starting to pay for it, people switched to Wordpress. 598 00:32:46,516 --> 00:32:48,882 So, this was our original website. 599 00:32:48,882 --> 00:32:51,615 We later redesigned it several times. 600 00:32:51,615 --> 00:32:57,652 And over the years, we have grown with WordPress 601 00:32:57,652 --> 00:33:02,630 to add - take advantage of the new features, and, uh... 602 00:33:02,630 --> 00:33:05,197 [gestures] - keep running our site. 603 00:33:05,197 --> 00:33:11,746 And so running our whole infrastructure on this very decentralized open-source model has been 604 00:33:11,746 --> 00:33:15,961 a really rewarding experience for us, just as using the Web has. 605 00:33:15,961 --> 00:33:19,292 And obviously, the, uh, one of the most interesting things is that 606 00:33:19,292 --> 00:33:21,561 Global Voices is all about the web. 607 00:33:21,561 --> 00:33:24,719 Without the Web, without that decentralized authorship, 608 00:33:24,719 --> 00:33:25,776 - anyone can write to it - 609 00:33:25,776 --> 00:33:27,157 there would be no Global Voices. 610 00:33:27,157 --> 00:33:29,291 Uh, the whole point of Global Voices was to 611 00:33:29,291 --> 00:33:31,883 recognize that people all over the world 612 00:33:31,883 --> 00:33:34,335 were taking advantage of the benefits of the Web, 613 00:33:34,335 --> 00:33:35,982 and create one place where you could find it, 614 00:33:35,982 --> 00:33:41,864 sort of like Archie was with the pre-Web TelNet days 615 00:33:41,864 --> 00:33:45,215 a archive of things happening all around - 616 00:33:45,215 --> 00:33:47,083 - that's what Global Voices did. 617 00:33:47,083 --> 00:33:50,717 Um. So. Yeah! 618 00:33:50,717 --> 00:33:52,808 And, y'know, we've tried a lot of different 619 00:33:52,808 --> 00:33:55,914 infrastructure based around the web over the years; 620 00:33:55,914 --> 00:33:57,315 uh, we've used Drupal, 621 00:33:57,315 --> 00:34:00,514 we've used a lot of different online services... 622 00:34:00,514 --> 00:34:02,045 Obviously, like everyone else, 623 00:34:02,045 --> 00:34:03,945 the temptation to take advantage of Google's 624 00:34:03,945 --> 00:34:08,450 free offerings has always been part of Global Voices' DNA: 625 00:34:08,450 --> 00:34:09,917 we use Google mailing lists, 626 00:34:09,917 --> 00:34:13,243 we use all the different things that they make for free 627 00:34:13,243 --> 00:34:14,951 which is an interesting part of the web, 628 00:34:14,951 --> 00:34:16,779 because it's not the Web, that's Google, 629 00:34:16,779 --> 00:34:18,455 just happening to give it away, 630 00:34:18,455 --> 00:34:20,580 but as a company, they have a tendency 631 00:34:20,580 --> 00:34:22,683 to follow the spirit of the Web, uh, 632 00:34:22,683 --> 00:34:26,084 even though they're doing so for commercial reasons. 633 00:34:26,084 --> 00:34:27,717 But - yeah! 634 00:34:27,717 --> 00:34:30,549 That's my very brief summary 635 00:34:30,549 --> 00:34:31,681 of the history of Global Voices 636 00:34:31,681 --> 00:34:34,284 and how it parallels the Web! 637 00:34:34,284 --> 00:34:35,751 Ellery: Thank you! 638 00:34:35,751 --> 00:34:38,115 Ellery: I'm afraid we're gonna have to wrap up now 639 00:34:38,115 --> 00:34:41,576 but, just, to do that, I wanted to ask for 640 00:34:41,576 --> 00:34:44,550 a couple of, kind of, final thoughts... 641 00:34:44,550 --> 00:34:50,717 ...from Alan, and perhaps also Josh, just - 642 00:34:50,717 --> 00:34:54,146 - Alan, I guess I'm especially interested in 643 00:34:54,146 --> 00:34:56,578 if there are, kinda, thoughts that you have 644 00:34:56,578 --> 00:34:59,875 on all of the activism and advocacy 645 00:34:59,875 --> 00:35:03,883 that's taking place around fundamental rights on the Internet, 646 00:35:03,883 --> 00:35:09,016 from your own unique historical perspective. 647 00:35:09,016 --> 00:35:11,978 And then I wanted to close, um, 648 00:35:11,978 --> 00:35:17,915 by asking Renata to just tell us a very little bit about Bassel 649 00:35:17,915 --> 00:35:22,580 since there's also an important anniversary this weekend. 650 00:35:22,580 --> 00:35:24,513 So, I'm gonna just let you guys go, 651 00:35:24,513 --> 00:35:27,578 and then we will close out! 652 00:35:27,578 --> 00:35:30,758 Alan Emtage: Okay, well, y'know, 653 00:35:30,758 --> 00:35:34,649 Alan: I haven't been involved as an activist 654 00:35:34,649 --> 00:35:37,249 for, uh, for quite some time now. 655 00:35:37,249 --> 00:35:41,242 I sort of burnt out after a while! [laughs] 656 00:35:41,242 --> 00:35:45,978 - flying around the globe, and doing all the stuff that I did in the nineties. 657 00:35:45,978 --> 00:35:49,385 But I certainly pay a lot of attention to that stuff 658 00:35:49,385 --> 00:35:52,577 y'know, I'm currently involved in Barbados, right now, 659 00:35:52,577 --> 00:35:56,813 and it has been really interesting to try and, 660 00:35:56,813 --> 00:35:57,881 for one example, 661 00:35:57,881 --> 00:36:01,618 try and access content from the United States 662 00:36:01,618 --> 00:36:04,208 - entertainment content, that kind of stuff. 663 00:36:04,208 --> 00:36:06,616 And, I mean, I knew about this stuff in theory, 664 00:36:06,616 --> 00:36:11,752 but in practice, the antiquated models 665 00:36:11,752 --> 00:36:17,194 of content distribution that we're still holding onto 666 00:36:17,194 --> 00:36:18,548 in this day and age, 667 00:36:18,548 --> 00:36:22,752 where, you know, geographical boundaries and national boundaries and that kinda stuff 668 00:36:22,752 --> 00:36:26,749 are still very much at the center of these business models. 669 00:36:26,749 --> 00:36:30,623 Y'know, things like BitTorrent and that kinda stuff 670 00:36:30,623 --> 00:36:33,483 are wiping them away, and they don't even realize it. 671 00:36:33,483 --> 00:36:37,848 The music industry has seen this happen, now, for decades - 672 00:36:37,848 --> 00:36:39,382 Certainly from the activist point of view, 673 00:36:39,382 --> 00:36:43,748 in terms of keeping the Internet free and available, 674 00:36:43,748 --> 00:36:45,515 it's gonna be a real challenge. 675 00:36:45,515 --> 00:36:48,681 And, I mean, it's such an important technology now. 676 00:36:48,681 --> 00:36:53,378 You have things like the Great Firewall in China... 677 00:36:53,378 --> 00:36:55,484 You have, you know, Russia, who recently - 678 00:36:55,484 --> 00:36:57,749 - as of yesterday, today - 679 00:36:57,749 --> 00:37:06,548 - shutting down, using new laws to shut down access to dissent against Putin... 680 00:37:06,548 --> 00:37:08,612 They realize the power - 681 00:37:08,612 --> 00:37:14,417 - Egypt was a real wakeup call for a lot of people in the use of social networking 682 00:37:14,417 --> 00:37:19,481 to organize and activate people and bring them out onto the streets, 683 00:37:19,481 --> 00:37:21,977 so governments are scared of this technology 684 00:37:21,977 --> 00:37:24,379 and it's important that we work really hard 685 00:37:24,379 --> 00:37:26,011 to keep it as free as it is, 686 00:37:26,011 --> 00:37:27,483 because they realize that, you know, 687 00:37:27,483 --> 00:37:30,583 information - how you control the information, you control the people. 688 00:37:30,583 --> 00:37:34,448 So, um, I think it is extraordinarily important 689 00:37:34,448 --> 00:37:36,946 that people like Josh [unintelligible] 690 00:37:36,946 --> 00:37:40,946 continue to work very hard to stop the bad laws, 691 00:37:40,946 --> 00:37:43,116 to inform the legislators - 692 00:37:43,116 --> 00:37:44,810 - some of them are just doing it out of ignorance! 693 00:37:44,810 --> 00:37:45,417 I mean, you know, 694 00:37:45,417 --> 00:37:49,114 "Never ascribe to malice what can be ascribed to incompetence." 695 00:37:49,114 --> 00:37:51,207 And, uh, a lot of these people are just 696 00:37:51,207 --> 00:37:53,185 incompetent, not malicious. 697 00:37:53,185 --> 00:37:56,615 But there are people who are malicious, as well [laughing a bit] 698 00:37:56,615 --> 00:37:58,247 so we have to deal with them as well. 699 00:37:58,247 --> 00:38:00,516 But, um, you know, it's vitally important 700 00:38:00,516 --> 00:38:04,072 because, uh, nowadays, these technologies 701 00:38:04,072 --> 00:38:05,948 really sit at the core of our culture 702 00:38:05,948 --> 00:38:07,749 and the way that we communicate with one another. 703 00:38:07,749 --> 00:38:12,142 [long silence] 704 00:38:12,142 --> 00:38:14,682 Josh [wondering if he should speak next]: ...Me? 705 00:38:14,682 --> 00:38:16,482 [Josh laughs silently] 706 00:38:16,482 --> 00:38:18,913 Josh: I'll just add one thing real quickly - 707 00:38:18,913 --> 00:38:20,945 - I think that we're at an interesting moment 708 00:38:20,945 --> 00:38:28,347 where so many of us acknowledge the importance of the Internet and the Web, 709 00:38:28,347 --> 00:38:33,616 and the impact that it's had on every aspect of our culture, 710 00:38:33,616 --> 00:38:34,766 and because of that, 711 00:38:34,766 --> 00:38:41,245 I think we as the users of the Web, and of the Internet, have a duty 712 00:38:41,245 --> 00:38:49,981 to hold governments around the world and companies around the world accountable 713 00:38:49,981 --> 00:38:54,882 and to urge them and pressure them 714 00:38:54,882 --> 00:39:01,931 to protect the openness that lies at the core of this entire thing. 715 00:39:01,931 --> 00:39:04,689 And to protect, not just openness, but 716 00:39:04,689 --> 00:39:06,926 also this notion of a Commons. 717 00:39:06,926 --> 00:39:10,998 That's - in our opinion - quickly being lost. 718 00:39:10,998 --> 00:39:17,465 This notion that the Internet, and the Web, are publicly owned, 719 00:39:17,465 --> 00:39:20,897 and that the activity that takes place on them 720 00:39:20,897 --> 00:39:22,986 is activity that we undertake 721 00:39:22,986 --> 00:39:25,280 and that is ours. 722 00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:30,047 And that is not the domain of the big companies' platforms. 723 00:39:30,047 --> 00:39:31,420 We undertake the activity. 724 00:39:31,420 --> 00:39:33,483 So, for example, 725 00:39:33,483 --> 00:39:35,626 Google has allowed us to do a lot of things. 726 00:39:35,626 --> 00:39:39,455 Google allows us to find a lot of information extremely quickly, 727 00:39:39,455 --> 00:39:41,849 to connect to each other extremely well, 728 00:39:41,849 --> 00:39:43,933 to use Google Hangouts as we're doing right now, 729 00:39:43,933 --> 00:39:47,384 but Google's doing all of this at the - 730 00:39:47,384 --> 00:39:51,383 - while mining the data that we give it, selling off that data - 731 00:39:51,383 --> 00:39:55,378 - that data is also creating this historical record 732 00:39:55,378 --> 00:39:57,780 of everything that we search for and say online, 733 00:39:57,780 --> 00:39:59,512 which as we know, can be exploited by governments, 734 00:39:59,512 --> 00:40:00,953 - but also by companies - 735 00:40:00,953 --> 00:40:03,994 and so I think it's time for us to think about that relationship 736 00:40:03,994 --> 00:40:05,656 between us and these big companies, 737 00:40:05,656 --> 00:40:10,487 which is becoming the central part of our online experience. 738 00:40:10,487 --> 00:40:13,355 And how can we decentralize that? 739 00:40:13,355 --> 00:40:17,173 How can we decouple ourselves from these giant companies 740 00:40:17,173 --> 00:40:18,907 and take back a portion of the Web 741 00:40:18,907 --> 00:40:22,473 so that we own this experience in a deeper way 742 00:40:22,473 --> 00:40:26,256 and it's not experienced as purely commercial, 743 00:40:26,256 --> 00:40:28,911 a commercial transaction between us an a big company. 744 00:40:28,911 --> 00:40:30,593 So that's a big question, 745 00:40:30,593 --> 00:40:32,524 and it's going to take years to unravel it, to find solutions, 746 00:40:32,524 --> 00:40:35,594 but we're hoping that we can start that conversation now. 747 00:40:35,594 --> 00:40:42,764 [long silence] 748 00:40:42,764 --> 00:40:49,187 Renata: Well, now I will go back to something that Jeremy said. 749 00:40:49,187 --> 00:40:53,937 It was about him being stopped in the border, the Canadian border 750 00:40:53,937 --> 00:40:56,266 because of "hacker." 751 00:40:56,266 --> 00:40:59,846 And what I want to talk about is that, 752 00:40:59,846 --> 00:41:01,547 at the end of the day, there's, ah - 753 00:41:01,547 --> 00:41:06,557 we reduce the number of people who can actually, 754 00:41:06,557 --> 00:41:10,024 in some countries, not control the internet, 755 00:41:10,024 --> 00:41:17,256 but understand the infrastructure, and use it in a way that they can increase public good. 756 00:41:17,256 --> 00:41:20,098 and they can help people in extreme situations. 757 00:41:20,098 --> 00:41:25,435 And one of these people is my friend Bassel Khartabil - 758 00:41:25,435 --> 00:41:29,465 [fondly] Bassel, Bassel is the internet. Basically. 759 00:41:29,465 --> 00:41:34,407 Basel is a Palestinian-Syrian activist, 760 00:41:34,407 --> 00:41:36,711 he's an activist of Greek culture, 761 00:41:36,711 --> 00:41:38,430 and he's a global citizen, you know? 762 00:41:38,430 --> 00:41:42,224 He's not super nationalistic, he, he, 763 00:41:42,224 --> 00:41:44,225 he has traveled a lot, extensively, 764 00:41:44,225 --> 00:41:46,717 he has friends all over the world, 765 00:41:46,717 --> 00:41:52,319 and he likes to spend time learning how things work, how things operate, 766 00:41:52,319 --> 00:41:55,531 so he's very good with computers - 767 00:41:55,531 --> 00:42:02,421 he learned himself how to code, thanks to his uncle - 768 00:42:02,421 --> 00:42:05,725 He knows a lot about hardware as well, 769 00:42:05,725 --> 00:42:09,444 and he knows a lot about Greek culture and design. 770 00:42:09,444 --> 00:42:16,027 And so during his travels he saw all these wonderful things happening 771 00:42:16,027 --> 00:42:18,413 and so he decided, with a group of friends, 772 00:42:18,413 --> 00:42:21,252 to create a hackerspace in Damascus 773 00:42:21,252 --> 00:42:23,256 I don't know how translation works, 774 00:42:23,256 --> 00:42:31,596 but apparently "hacker-space" was a very scary word for the Syrian intelligence services, 775 00:42:31,596 --> 00:42:34,118 and they saw it as a threat - 776 00:42:34,118 --> 00:42:40,461 like, people in power view technology as a threat to their plan to control people. 777 00:42:40,461 --> 00:42:46,358 So on the 15th of December, two years ago, 778 00:42:46,358 --> 00:42:48,800 the hackerspace was raided... 779 00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:50,792 All the computers were taken away, 780 00:42:50,792 --> 00:42:52,616 all the things were dismantled - 781 00:42:52,616 --> 00:42:58,769 - can you imagine one of these Syrian police looking at the 3D printer, oh my god, 782 00:42:58,769 --> 00:43:02,808 [derisively] probably thought they were like nuclear weapons, or something like that - 783 00:43:02,808 --> 00:43:07,340 and, sadly, he has been away, he has been in prison. 784 00:43:07,340 --> 00:43:14,826 He was in a very, very bad prison, subject to torture treatment. 785 00:43:14,826 --> 00:43:19,220 But then he was - thanks to the advocacy of thousands of people, 786 00:43:19,220 --> 00:43:23,502 he was re-transferred back to the civilian prison. 787 00:43:23,502 --> 00:43:29,468 Which, you can imagine, how, even if it's a civilian prison, how this prison looks like. 788 00:43:29,468 --> 00:43:36,719 I mean, it is... the conditions get bad to worse as time goes by, 789 00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:40,985 as the Syrian government runs out of resources. 790 00:43:40,985 --> 00:43:46,533 The last people they will feed, the last people they will take care of, are the prisoners. 791 00:43:46,533 --> 00:43:50,976 On top of that, Bassel, he has a health condition... 792 00:43:50,976 --> 00:43:52,902 It is all really sad. 793 00:43:52,902 --> 00:43:58,539 But, what we have been trying to do during these two years 794 00:43:58,539 --> 00:44:00,263 is to keep him peaceful. 795 00:44:00,263 --> 00:44:03,540 And to keep reminding him that we haven't forgotten 796 00:44:03,540 --> 00:44:08,724 and to keep reminding him that we embrace the values that he embraces. 797 00:44:08,724 --> 00:44:13,115 And we support the causes that he supports. 798 00:44:13,115 --> 00:44:19,510 So, instead of, you know, just being sad, and doing nothing, 799 00:44:19,510 --> 00:44:21,631 we are a doing a Free Bassel Day. 800 00:44:21,631 --> 00:44:23,094 On the 15th of March. 801 00:44:23,094 --> 00:44:25,797 Well, some things are already starting today! 802 00:44:25,797 --> 00:44:29,283 And what we want is, ah, joint action - 803 00:44:29,283 --> 00:44:34,107 - doing things, doing anything you can do to remember Bassel. 804 00:44:34,107 --> 00:44:37,596 And not only Bassel. To remember Syria. 805 00:44:37,596 --> 00:44:39,756 Because it seems that because of the news, 806 00:44:39,756 --> 00:44:43,976 we just, we don't hear about Syria anymore! 807 00:44:43,976 --> 00:44:49,743 I mean, it's like, it is on, you know, in the parking lot, 808 00:44:49,743 --> 00:44:54,656 and if we have some time, we go, "oh, okay, something is going badly there." 809 00:44:54,656 --> 00:44:58,001 But, uh, we seem to have forgotten about all the suffering. 810 00:44:58,001 --> 00:45:01,056 And together with Bassel there are 811 00:45:01,056 --> 00:45:07,457 lots of system administrators, computer experts, and hackers who are in prison, 812 00:45:07,457 --> 00:45:09,678 and sometimes we only care about journalists! 813 00:45:09,678 --> 00:45:14,748 But, you know, there's lots of people, valuable people for the future of Syria, 814 00:45:14,748 --> 00:45:19,384 who are in prison now, who need our solidarity. 815 00:45:19,384 --> 00:45:25,717 I would also like to... if you live in a country which has received Syrian refugees, 816 00:45:25,717 --> 00:45:27,793 please show your solidarity. 817 00:45:27,793 --> 00:45:31,521 I know that sharing your computer might not sound appealing, 818 00:45:31,521 --> 00:45:36,945 but maybe crowdfunding and giving a computer with internet access to this refugee camp 819 00:45:36,945 --> 00:45:40,454 so they can stay in touch with their relatives abroad...? 820 00:45:40,454 --> 00:45:45,603 Maybe doing a short talk or short gathering near them...? 821 00:45:45,603 --> 00:45:49,489 I think that those are good ways to help Bassel. 822 00:45:49,489 --> 00:45:53,494 Because that's what Bassel probably would be doing if he was free. 823 00:45:53,494 --> 00:45:58,372 So my appeal is that - to not forget Syria, to not forget Bassel. 824 00:45:58,372 --> 00:46:03,086 The free internet is a free internet with free Bassel and free Syria! 825 00:46:03,086 --> 00:46:06,780 And that's - [laughingly] - the Web I want, actually! 826 00:46:06,780 --> 00:46:08,888 Ellery: That is the Web she wants! 827 00:46:08,888 --> 00:46:10,120 Ellery: The Web many of us want. 828 00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:12,487 So, there's a lot of work to do, 829 00:46:12,487 --> 00:46:18,350 and there are lots of ways to get involved, as we've heard about. 830 00:46:18,350 --> 00:46:20,521 Thank you, everybody, so much 831 00:46:20,521 --> 00:46:23,421 for coming on today, 832 00:46:23,421 --> 00:46:31,348 and, umm, we hope to see everybody here and out there, next week on GV Face! 833 00:46:31,348 --> 00:46:33,410 Thanks so much!