WEBVTT 00:00:08.441 --> 00:00:10.360 ROBERT RYMAN: The real purpose of painting is… 00:00:10.360 --> 00:00:11.782 is to give pleasure. 00:00:12.120 --> 00:00:15.840 I mean that’s really uh the… 00:00:15.840 --> 00:00:17.568 the main thing that it’s about. 00:00:22.080 --> 00:00:23.760 I mean there can be the story, 00:00:23.760 --> 00:00:26.480 you know there can be a lot of history behind it, 00:00:26.480 --> 00:00:27.286 there can be… 00:00:28.600 --> 00:00:30.583 but when it, you know when it… 00:00:31.440 --> 00:00:34.960 you don’t have to know all of those things uh to… 00:00:34.960 --> 00:00:37.248 to receive the pleasure from a painting. 00:00:37.880 --> 00:00:40.720 Uh, it’s like listening to some music. 00:00:40.720 --> 00:00:46.037 You don’t have to know the score of a  symphony in order to appreciate the symphony. 00:00:46.217 --> 00:00:48.339 You can just listen to the sounds. 00:00:52.400 --> 00:00:54.456 In Nashville when I was growing up, 00:00:55.043 --> 00:00:58.800 you didn’t hear anything but  country music on the radio 00:00:58.800 --> 00:01:03.312 and juke boxes at that time and I  was never really interested in that. 00:01:04.440 --> 00:01:07.360 I was more interested in uh jazz. 00:01:07.360 --> 00:01:11.160 I would hunt around late at  night on the radio trying to find 00:01:11.160 --> 00:01:15.598 a New York station or something  where I could hear something else. 00:01:16.320 --> 00:01:19.760 It was the music really that was  more interesting for me than… 00:01:19.760 --> 00:01:21.916 than painting which I’d never seen. 00:01:22.480 --> 00:01:24.040 So when I came to New York, 00:01:24.040 --> 00:01:27.203 it was the music that was  the most important thing. 00:01:32.560 --> 00:01:36.366 I was playing bop...bebop. (LAUGHS) 00:01:36.366 --> 00:01:39.564 You know I was...Charlie Parker and Zoot Sims, 00:01:39.564 --> 00:01:41.399 (LAUGHS) 00:01:42.504 --> 00:01:44.760 and I think that had an influence on 00:01:44.760 --> 00:01:46.651 my approach to painting because 00:01:47.080 --> 00:01:50.120 you played on a structure and  you learned your instrument 00:01:50.120 --> 00:01:52.409 and then you played within the structure. 00:01:52.680 --> 00:01:58.080 Well, it seemed like a logical  thing to begin painting that way. 00:01:58.080 --> 00:02:00.603 You know I would learn about paint and then 00:02:01.280 --> 00:02:04.762 I would learn about what  you could do with the paint. 00:02:06.680 --> 00:02:12.413 In painting, something has to look  easy even though it might not be easy. 00:02:14.240 --> 00:02:16.840 That’s an important part of painting, 00:02:16.840 --> 00:02:19.123 that it has to have that feeling of… 00:02:19.800 --> 00:02:21.828 like it just happened. 00:02:29.280 --> 00:02:32.120 It used to be when I was playing, 00:02:32.120 --> 00:02:36.640 we would say tunes, no one  uses the term tunes anymore, 00:02:36.640 --> 00:02:37.820 you know it’s songs. 00:02:38.452 --> 00:02:40.960 If someone is singing  something and telling a story 00:02:40.960 --> 00:02:44.280 and it’s very similar to  representational painting where, 00:02:44.280 --> 00:02:47.792 you know, you tell a story with  the paint and with symbols. 00:02:49.800 --> 00:02:53.880 I wasn’t interested in painting a narrative, 00:02:53.880 --> 00:02:55.441 telling a story with a painting. 00:03:00.720 --> 00:03:06.560 I thought the painting should just be  about what it’s about and not (LAUGHS) 00:03:06.560 --> 00:03:09.607 not about other things. 00:03:14.336 --> 00:03:19.560 One thing that I learned from music  that I’ve carried over to painting was 00:03:20.200 --> 00:03:22.759 if you are an entertainer, you have to entertain. 00:03:24.045 --> 00:03:25.375 I didn’t want to do that. 00:03:26.052 --> 00:03:30.600 The other way was to just  to do whatever you wanted 00:03:30.600 --> 00:03:33.984 and the audience had to come to you or not. 00:03:35.360 --> 00:03:38.600 And uh that’s...that was my  approach right from the beginning. 00:03:38.600 --> 00:03:41.979 Uh I wasn’t going to be an entertainer. 00:03:44.280 --> 00:03:47.560 In all of my paintings, I discover things. 00:03:47.560 --> 00:03:51.840 Sometimes I’m surprised at the  result, but I know what I’m doing. 00:03:51.840 --> 00:03:55.912 (LAUGHS) Even though I let...even  though I don’t know what I’m doing. 00:03:55.912 --> 00:03:56.912 (LAUGHS) 00:04:01.560 --> 00:04:06.534 Always...my approach uh tends  to be uh from experiments. 00:04:10.560 --> 00:04:14.720 I generally do a lot of  tests before I do paintings. 00:04:14.720 --> 00:04:21.440 Tests on paints to see which is the  best thing to use on a certain material, 00:04:21.440 --> 00:04:27.266 how fastening is going to work, how the  light is going to work, things like that. 00:04:51.200 --> 00:04:54.920 I’m not involved with any kind of art movement or… 00:04:54.920 --> 00:04:58.400 or I’m not a scholar and I’m not a historian. 00:04:58.400 --> 00:05:00.800 I just look at it as solving problems 00:05:00.800 --> 00:05:04.901 and working on the painting  and a visual experience. 00:05:20.680 --> 00:05:22.520 I don’t have any assistants. 00:05:22.520 --> 00:05:25.080 I like to do it all myself. 00:05:28.520 --> 00:05:30.984 I like to know what’s going on all the time. 00:05:36.000 --> 00:05:39.440 It’s coming along. (LAUGHS) 00:05:39.440 --> 00:05:45.720 When I was just beginning to paint, I… 00:05:45.720 --> 00:05:49.600 I thought I have to become  not afraid of the paint. 00:05:49.600 --> 00:05:52.040 Not afraid of the cost of the paint, you know, 00:05:52.040 --> 00:05:57.280 not afraid of wasting it and I would… 00:05:57.280 --> 00:06:01.480 I smeared some on my hand and just put it down on… 00:06:02.320 --> 00:06:03.080 just… 00:06:03.080 --> 00:06:10.407 wasted some paint so to speak, so  that I would not be afraid of it. 00:06:15.280 --> 00:06:19.240 I like to do something that I  don’t know exactly how to do. 00:06:19.240 --> 00:06:22.800 When I finish the problem, I  don’t have to go on with it. 00:06:22.800 --> 00:06:25.884 I’m more interested in finding  what else I can do that… 00:06:28.321 --> 00:06:30.000 that’s more of a challenge for me. 00:06:34.920 --> 00:06:38.560 I would never show a painting  that I didn’t feel right about. 00:06:38.560 --> 00:06:40.000 I would never let it out. 00:06:41.640 --> 00:06:45.794 There might have been a few paintings that  I’ve destroyed through the years that… 00:06:46.223 --> 00:06:51.200 some I’ve wish I hadn’t but it wasn’t  that the paintings maybe were not good, 00:06:51.200 --> 00:06:54.720 but they weren’t what I  wanted at the moment and so I… 00:06:54.720 --> 00:06:56.780 you know I rejected them. 00:06:57.818 --> 00:07:01.504 But usually I work them  through so that they are okay. 00:07:13.900 --> 00:07:17.160 RYMAN: Could you get the hot spots, kind of move… 00:07:17.160 --> 00:07:23.000 move the hot spots down so the wall is  more even and not so hot at the top? 00:07:23.000 --> 00:07:24.080 SPEAKER: That’s easy. 00:07:24.486 --> 00:07:26.227 RYMAN: I work with real light. 00:07:26.520 --> 00:07:32.196 I mean the light is not really painted  into the painting in an illusionistic way, 00:07:32.760 --> 00:07:34.744 as you would paint a landscape or something, 00:07:35.240 --> 00:07:37.355 but my paintings work with real light. 00:07:38.235 --> 00:07:42.000 It’s not just a matter of  daylight or incandescent light, 00:07:42.000 --> 00:07:44.514 it’s also the quality of the light. 00:07:44.920 --> 00:07:49.629 But sometimes, you want a  softer light to bring it alive. 00:07:51.840 --> 00:07:56.040 I think of my painting as not really as abstract, 00:07:56.040 --> 00:07:58.734 because I don’t abstract from anything. 00:07:59.520 --> 00:08:06.800 It’s involved with real visual aspects  of what you really are looking at, 00:08:06.800 --> 00:08:09.680 whether it’s wood or...or you  see the paint and the metal 00:08:09.680 --> 00:08:14.000 and how it’s put together and  how it works with the wall 00:08:14.000 --> 00:08:15.472 and how it works with the light. 00:08:17.480 --> 00:08:21.920 I use real light and I use real surface. 00:08:21.920 --> 00:08:23.688 I don’t use any illusion. 00:08:25.200 --> 00:08:27.914 It’s the real thing that you see. 00:08:28.320 --> 00:08:31.568 It’s a real experience. (LAUGHS) 00:08:33.160 --> 00:08:37.921 The paintings move outward  in a sense, aesthetically. 00:08:38.440 --> 00:08:41.000 They...they go out into the space of the room 00:08:41.000 --> 00:08:43.809 and they certainly involve  the wall itself that it’s on. 00:08:46.200 --> 00:08:48.660 What you’re seeing is really what it is. 00:08:51.480 --> 00:08:56.000 Anything else will dilute  it or you know disturb it. 00:09:03.280 --> 00:09:07.014 I never thought of white as being a color. 00:09:11.600 --> 00:09:15.657 White could do things that  other colors could not do. 00:09:20.960 --> 00:09:23.824 White has a tendency to make things visible. 00:09:26.080 --> 00:09:28.886 You can see more of the nuance. 00:09:31.080 --> 00:09:35.520 It’s been only recently where I  actually did some white paintings and… 00:09:35.520 --> 00:09:36.715 which I call white. 00:09:41.103 --> 00:09:44.880 I began with that square  in the ‘50s actually and I… 00:09:44.880 --> 00:09:51.077 somehow it’s become so natural to me that  I just don’t think of it any other way. 00:09:53.920 --> 00:09:55.680 A square has always been, you know, 00:09:55.680 --> 00:09:59.440 just an equal sided space that you could work with 00:09:59.440 --> 00:10:03.640 and it didn’t have the feeling of a landscape or, 00:10:03.640 --> 00:10:09.254 you know, some kind of a window or a doorway  that we usually associate with rectangles. 00:10:10.720 --> 00:10:14.038 It’s just a very neutral kind of a space. 00:10:25.360 --> 00:10:30.859 Sometimes after I finish a group of paintings, 00:10:31.720 --> 00:10:33.462 I’m not sure what to do next. 00:10:33.800 --> 00:10:43.400 And it may be I have to wait a while,  you know maybe a month or...or so. 00:10:43.400 --> 00:10:44.160 Two months. 00:10:44.160 --> 00:10:45.742 You know I don’t worry about it… 00:10:46.960 --> 00:10:52.600 and then slowly things fall into  place and I try a few things and… 00:10:52.600 --> 00:10:56.480 and then I realize that what else could be done 00:10:56.480 --> 00:10:59.240 and what interests me at the moment. 00:11:03.800 --> 00:11:07.440 It’s...it’s called PHILADELPHIA PROTO… 00:11:07.440 --> 00:11:10.134 well, actually it’s called  THIRD PHILADELPHIA PROTOTYPE. 00:11:13.960 --> 00:11:16.280 The panels are not really the painting. 00:11:16.280 --> 00:11:18.808 The painting consists of the two walls. 00:11:19.440 --> 00:11:23.080 The original surface of the panels are the same. 00:11:23.080 --> 00:11:25.600 Even from the first showing. 00:11:25.600 --> 00:11:28.608 The only thing that changes is the… 00:11:29.240 --> 00:11:32.731 is the edge which goes onto the wall itself. 00:11:38.320 --> 00:11:43.280 Some of the tape is going off  of the panel onto the wall, 00:11:43.280 --> 00:11:47.896 and others seem to just appear on the wall. 00:11:49.520 --> 00:11:50.820 Which tells you that it’s… 00:11:50.820 --> 00:11:53.919 it was not really the first time it was done. 00:11:56.040 --> 00:12:00.961 That’s done on purpose because I don’t  want it to be the exact same each time. 00:12:03.240 --> 00:12:09.400 The light is extremely important  in the way it affects the panels. 00:12:09.400 --> 00:12:14.640 In the afternoon, later when the  sun moves around to this side the… 00:12:14.640 --> 00:12:16.720 the panels will look very different. 00:12:16.720 --> 00:12:21.000 The softer light brings out the  nuances and you can see the… 00:12:22.400 --> 00:12:29.360 the panels have a glow which would be  wiped out in a strong straight on light. 00:12:29.360 --> 00:12:32.344 Yesterday was the first time  I actually saw the space. 00:12:36.495 --> 00:12:40.250 It should be a soft, quiet experience. 00:12:43.160 --> 00:12:44.443 It’s nice to look at. 00:12:46.880 --> 00:12:47.941 I like this.