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ROBERT RYMAN:
The real purpose of painting is…

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is to give pleasure.

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I mean that’s really uh the…

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the main thing that it’s about.

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I mean there can be the story,

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you know there can be a lot of history behind it,

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there can be…

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but when it, you know when it…

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you don’t have to know all of those things uh to…

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to receive the pleasure from a painting.

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Uh, it’s like listening to some music.

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You don’t have to know the score of a 
symphony in order to appreciate the symphony.

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You can just listen to the sounds.

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In Nashville when I was growing up,

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you didn’t hear anything but 
country music on the radio

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and juke boxes at that time and I 
was never really interested in that.

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I was more interested in uh jazz.

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I would hunt around late at 
night on the radio trying to find

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a New York station or something 
where I could hear something else.

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It was the music really that was 
more interesting for me than…

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than painting which I’d never seen.

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So when I came to New York,

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it was the music that was 
the most important thing.

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I was playing bop...bebop. (LAUGHS)

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You know I was...Charlie Parker and Zoot Sims,

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(LAUGHS)

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and I think that had an influence on

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my approach to painting because

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you played on a structure and 
you learned your instrument

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and then you played within the structure.

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Well, it seemed like a logical 
thing to begin painting that way.

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You know I would learn about paint and then

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I would learn about what 
you could do with the paint.

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In painting, something has to look 
easy even though it might not be easy.

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That’s an important part of painting,

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that it has to have that feeling of…

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like it just happened.

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It used to be when I was playing,

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we would say tunes, no one 
uses the term tunes anymore,

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you know it’s songs.

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If someone is singing 
something and telling a story

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and it’s very similar to 
representational painting where,

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you know, you tell a story with 
the paint and with symbols.

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I wasn’t interested in painting a narrative,

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telling a story with a painting.

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I thought the painting should just be 
about what it’s about and not (LAUGHS)

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not about other things.

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One thing that I learned from music 
that I’ve carried over to painting was

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if you are an entertainer, you have to entertain.

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I didn’t want to do that.

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The other way was to just 
to do whatever you wanted

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and the audience had to come to you or not.

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And uh that’s...that was my 
approach right from the beginning.

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Uh I wasn’t going to be an entertainer.

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In all of my paintings, I discover things.

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Sometimes I’m surprised at the 
result, but I know what I’m doing.

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(LAUGHS) Even though I let...even 
though I don’t know what I’m doing.

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(LAUGHS)

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Always...my approach uh tends 
to be uh from experiments.

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I generally do a lot of 
tests before I do paintings.

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Tests on paints to see which is the 
best thing to use on a certain material,

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how fastening is going to work, how the 
light is going to work, things like that.

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I’m not involved with any kind of art movement or…

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or I’m not a scholar and I’m not a historian.

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I just look at it as solving problems

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and working on the painting 
and a visual experience.

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I don’t have any assistants.

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I like to do it all myself.

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I like to know what’s going on all the time.

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It’s coming along. (LAUGHS)

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When I was just beginning to paint, I…

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I thought I have to become 
not afraid of the paint.

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Not afraid of the cost of the paint, you know,

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not afraid of wasting it and I would…

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I smeared some on my hand and just put it down on…

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just…

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wasted some paint so to speak, so 
that I would not be afraid of it.

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I like to do something that I 
don’t know exactly how to do.

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When I finish the problem, I 
don’t have to go on with it.

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I’m more interested in finding 
what else I can do that…

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that’s more of a challenge for me.

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I would never show a painting 
that I didn’t feel right about.

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I would never let it out.

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There might have been a few paintings that 
I’ve destroyed through the years that…

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some I’ve wish I hadn’t but it wasn’t 
that the paintings maybe were not good,

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but they weren’t what I 
wanted at the moment and so I…

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you know I rejected them.

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But usually I work them 
through so that they are okay.

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RYMAN: Could you get the hot spots, kind of move…

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move the hot spots down so the wall is 
more even and not so hot at the top?

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SPEAKER: That’s easy.

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RYMAN: I work with real light.

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I mean the light is not really painted 
into the painting in an illusionistic way,

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as you would paint a landscape or something,

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but my paintings work with real light.

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It’s not just a matter of 
daylight or incandescent light,

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it’s also the quality of the light.

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But sometimes, you want a 
softer light to bring it alive.

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I think of my painting as not really as abstract,

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because I don’t abstract from anything.

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It’s involved with real visual aspects 
of what you really are looking at,

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whether it’s wood or...or you 
see the paint and the metal

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and how it’s put together and 
how it works with the wall

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and how it works with the light.

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I use real light and I use real surface.

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I don’t use any illusion.

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It’s the real thing that you see.

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It’s a real experience. (LAUGHS)

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The paintings move outward 
in a sense, aesthetically.

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They...they go out into the space of the room

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and they certainly involve 
the wall itself that it’s on.

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What you’re seeing is really what it is.

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Anything else will dilute 
it or you know disturb it.

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I never thought of white as being a color.

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White could do things that 
other colors could not do.

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White has a tendency to make things visible.

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You can see more of the nuance.

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It’s been only recently where I 
actually did some white paintings and…

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which I call white.

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I began with that square 
in the ‘50s actually and I…

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somehow it’s become so natural to me that 
I just don’t think of it any other way.

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A square has always been, you know,

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just an equal sided space that you could work with

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and it didn’t have the feeling of a landscape or,

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you know, some kind of a window or a doorway 
that we usually associate with rectangles.

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It’s just a very neutral kind of a space.

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Sometimes after I finish a group of paintings,

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I’m not sure what to do next.

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And it may be I have to wait a while, 
you know maybe a month or...or so.

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Two months.

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You know I don’t worry about it…

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and then slowly things fall into 
place and I try a few things and…

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and then I realize that what else could be done

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and what interests me at the moment.

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It’s...it’s called PHILADELPHIA PROTO…

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well, actually it’s called 
THIRD PHILADELPHIA PROTOTYPE.

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The panels are not really the painting.

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The painting consists of the two walls.

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The original surface of the panels are the same.

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Even from the first showing.

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The only thing that changes is the…

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is the edge which goes onto the wall itself.

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Some of the tape is going off 
of the panel onto the wall,

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and others seem to just appear on the wall.

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Which tells you that it’s…

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it was not really the first time it was done.

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That’s done on purpose because I don’t 
want it to be the exact same each time.

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The light is extremely important 
in the way it affects the panels.

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In the afternoon, later when the 
sun moves around to this side the…

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the panels will look very different.

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The softer light brings out the 
nuances and you can see the…

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the panels have a glow which would be 
wiped out in a strong straight on light.

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Yesterday was the first time 
I actually saw the space.

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It should be a soft, quiet experience.

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It’s nice to look at.

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I like this.