WEBVTT

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Хорошо.

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Итак, когда я говорю о создании продукта, который пользователи полюбят, я имею ввиду,

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то, как мы делаем что-то, вызывающее
интерес у людей.

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То, чему наши пользователи

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будут неосознанно желать

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успеха. И продукции, которую мы производим,

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и компаниям, стоящим за этой продукцией

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Мы изучим огромное количество материала

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Попытайтесь не делать слишком много записей

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по большей части, слушайте

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Я покажу ссылку на слайды в своем твиттере

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и по этой ссылке вы сможете получить

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аннотации к слайдам и задать мне вопросы

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И, если мы до них не доберемся

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Я отвечу уже после лекции

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Итак, вы, ребята слушали, и

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слышали о показателе роста,
за последние две недели, и

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как по мне, понятие "рост", довольно 
простое

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Это взаимодействие между двумя концепциями, или переменными

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Коэффициентом конверсии и оттоком 
пользователей.

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понятно?

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И промежуток между этими двумя понятиями 
довольно

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неплохо показывает, как быстро вы будете
развиваться

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Многие люди, особенно, те, кто 
занимается бизнесом

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привыкли оценивать это взаимодействие
через понятия

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хорошо поддающиеся вычислению

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И сегодня, я хочу

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рассказать об этом

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более простым языком.

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Потому что, в стартапе, когда вы 
взаимодействуете

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со своими пользователями, вы
делаете это

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довольно аккуратно, на первых
порах

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в связи с этим, я думаю, есть 
иной способ взглянуть

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на эти вещи, с той точки, что 
мы создаём что-то своё

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И мы смотрим на большое количество 
различных примеров этого.

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И того, как это должно работать.

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Мой подход в обучении стартапам
в том,

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что наилучший путь к 
получению миллиона

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долларов это концентрация на тех 
аспектах, которые помогут вам

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заработать первый доллар, привлечь 
первого пользователя.

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Если вы усвоите это,

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остальное решится само собой.

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Это вопрос веры в себя.

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я пришел к партнерству в YC (Y Combinator)
будучи выпускником

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Я пришел в программу зимой 2006, и

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это была в моя вторая программа, и

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я создал сервис Wufoo.

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Wufoo это инструмент для создания веб-форм
различного вида

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Он позволяет создавать контакты,

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онлайн-опросы и простые формы оплаты

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вообще, это база данных, которая выглядит так,
будто

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создана в Детском Мире.

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Тем не менее, интересно то,

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что её довольно просто использовать -

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у нас были покупатели из всех 
направлений, рынков

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и ниш, приходящих на ум,
включая

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бОльшую часть ТОП-500 журнала Fortune

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Я управлял компанией пять лет, и

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затем, нас приобрела SurveyMonkey
в 2013.

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И в это время

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мы были весьма интересным вложением.

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Мы были командой из десяти человек.

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И, пока мы искали средства здесь,

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в Кремниевой Долине, через YC, мы
управляли компанией

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из Флориды

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У нас не было своего офиса.

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Все работали дома.

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Это было довольно интересно.

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Таким образом, каждая точка здесь представляет
стартап, который был

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удостоен такого предложения о поглощении

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Мы видим работников слева,

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а внизу деньги, которые они получали

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Вертикальная ось это

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значимость компании в разное время.

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Подводя итоги, мы видим, что

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средняя цена этого стартапа около
25 миллионов долларов

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И эти деньги возвращались инвесторам, 
в виде 676%

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Wufoo заработал в итоге около 118 
тысяч долларов

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И он вернул инвесторам около 29000%

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Многие люди интересуются.

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Чем-то вроде

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Что делает

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Wufoo хоть немного особенным,

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что было особенным в управлении 
компанией

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многих интересовал продукт.

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Мы не были заинтересованы в создании 
программного обеспечения, которое

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люди просто захотят использовать.

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Это напоминает о том, что вы работали

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как офисный планктон.

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Потому что это было просто приложение с базой данных, в каком-то смысле.

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Мы хотели приложение, которое люди 
смогу полюбить,

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к которому люди смогут привязаться

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Мы очень фанатично подходили к этому.

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К этой идее.

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К той мысли, что

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что это своего рода наука.

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И всё, что мы сказали это
"Окей

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Что же интересного в стартапах, 
с точки зрения

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нас, желающих создавать любимые людьми
вещи, это то,

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что любовь, и подсознательные эмоции
это то, что

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сложно воссоздать в реальной жизни."

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*новые пользователи - свидания
старые пользователи - свадьба

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А в стартапах мы должны это 
структурировать.

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И мы решили

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просто наблюдать,

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"Хорошо, как реальные отношения работают
в реальной жизни, и

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как мы можем применить их к тому, 
что делаем

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и подстроить под это свой продукт."

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Сейчас взглянем на эти две метафоры

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"находить пользователей, как приглашать
на свидание"

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и,
"удерживать их, как состоять в браке"

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Когда речь идет о свидании, 
многое зависит,

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как мы поняли, от первого впечатления.

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Часто, все вы, рассуждая о своих 
отношениях, думаете о том,

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как они зарождались.

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Я бы попросил вас рассказать мне 
о первом поцелуе,

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о том, как встретились, как сделали
предложение...

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Эти вещи мы говорим постоянно,

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еще, и еще.

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Это, в общем. словами рассказанная история

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отношений, и это именно то, что мы

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делаем с компаниями.

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Все люди это

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создания, появившиеся в отношениях

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С этим ничего не поделаешь, но, создать, и
сделать удобными

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те вещи, с которыми мы взаимодействуем, 
мы можем.

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И, это могут быть машины, на которых 
мы ездим,

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одежда, которую носим, инструменты,
которые используем...

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Мы сами задаем этому характеристики.

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Свойства.

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И мы ждем определенного отклика,

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и это определяет наше взаимодействие

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Первое впечатление важно для

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начала любых отношений, потому,

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что к этому мы постоянно 
будем возвращаться

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Понятно?

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И есть кое-что особенное в том, 
как мы

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чтим это "начало отношений".

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Приведу пример

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Если вы на первом свидании с кем-то

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и вы мило проводите время за ужином,

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и замечаете собеседника ковыряющимся
в носу,

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вы, скорее всего, больше не пойдете с ним
на свидание

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Но, если вы женаты,

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уже 20-30 лет, и

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вы застанете партнера на диване,
ищущим нефть

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в своем носу,

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вряд ли вы немедленно позвоните
адвокату,

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и скажете, "у нас тут серьезная проблема"

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"я должен подготовить документы 
для развода"

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Вы пожмете плечами, и скажете

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"Зато у тебя доброе сердце"

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Вот решение,

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Самая первая встреча показывает, что,
повседневные рамки

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гораздо ниже, чем в самом начале

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И, для программ в целом и для

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большинства продуктов в программном обеспечении 
сети интернет, которые мы используем

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первое впечатление довольно очевидно.

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И это то, чему, как вы видите,

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компании уделяют внимание,

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подталкивая маркетологов к исследованию.

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В пользу этих маркетологов скажу, что те, кто 
хорош в создании чего-либо,

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изучают очень первых впечатлений, и

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делают их более запоминающимися.

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Правда ведь, тот первый имэйл, который 
вы получаете

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от программы.

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Что происходит, когда вы впервые заходите 
в профиль на сайте?

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Ссылки, реклама, первый раз, когда

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вы общаетесь с техподдержкой.

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Всё это возможности для соблазнения.

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И, мы думали о

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создании первого впечатления там,

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и переняли принцип у японцев.

00:06:38.610 --> 00:06:41.120
У них есть два слова для обозначения

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процесса, который был завершен,

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с точки зрения качества результата
этого процесса.

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И эти два слова качества:
"atarimae hinshitsu" и

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"miryokuteki hinshitsu".

00:06:49.030 --> 00:06:51.090
Первое значит

00:06:51.090 --> 00:06:53.200
"факт, практический успех,
функциональность"

00:06:53.200 --> 00:06:55.120
А второе

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"Феерический успех".

00:06:58.100 --> 00:06:59.750
Примером будут шариковые ручки:

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Какая-то из них "miryokuteki":
вес ручки,

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то, как чернила ложатся,

00:07:06.220 --> 00:07:08.960
то, как люди воспринимают написанное 
этой ручкой,

00:07:08.960 --> 00:07:12.200
то, как на ручку реагируют пишущие ей,

00:07:12.200 --> 00:07:15.109
и читающие написанное,

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это поднимает продукт на новый 
уровень

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Продолжим с примерами:

00:07:20.150 --> 00:07:23.429
Это ссылка с логином Wufoo, и,

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там есть динозавр, которого я считаю
восхитительным.

00:07:26.280 --> 00:07:29.100
И, если вы наведёте на него,

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его фича приведет к интересному 
всплывающему пузырьку, который

00:07:32.430 --> 00:07:34.150
не объясняет, как войти,

00:07:34.150 --> 00:07:36.260
Но просто рычит.

00:07:36.260 --> 00:07:37.420
И.

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Что мы заметили в раннем
использовании так это то, что

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новшества, как это, заставляют
людей улыбаться.

00:07:42.340 --> 00:07:43.460
Просто так

00:07:43.460 --> 00:07:44.200
причем,

00:07:44.200 --> 00:07:45.300
абсолютно всех

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И я думаю, постоянно, когда мы

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начинаем оценивать продукт, мы
никогда не думаем

00:07:49.170 --> 00:07:50.190
об эмоциях

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вызываемых им у людей.

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Это страница входа Vimeo

00:07:55.500 --> 00:07:57.700
Здесь есть пара интеграций.

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Эту я нахожу наиболее классной, ведь

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она позволяет понять, начиная своё

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путешествие по Vimeo,

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что это будет что-то особенное.

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И это везде в их творениях.

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Если вы начнёте искать слово "пердеж",
и, проматывая страницу вверх-вниз

00:08:10.230 --> 00:08:12.250
сайт будет издавать соответствующие звуки.

00:08:12.250 --> 00:08:12.730


00:08:12.730 --> 00:08:13.920
Есть кое-что особенное в том,

00:08:13.920 --> 00:08:15.705
как этот сайт общается с вами.

00:08:15.705 --> 00:08:16.449
специфическое,

00:08:16.449 --> 00:08:17.530
другое.

00:08:17.530 --> 00:08:19.510
И об этом вы захотите поговорить.

00:08:20.940 --> 00:08:23.600
Не всегда это дизайн.

00:08:23.600 --> 00:08:24.820
Это форма регистрации Cork,

00:08:24.820 --> 00:08:26.430
социальной сети, где сидят

00:08:26.430 --> 00:08:28.700
люди, любящие пить вино.

00:08:28.700 --> 00:08:31.190
Здесь адрес электронной почты,

00:08:31.190 --> 00:08:33.240
который должен быть действительным.

00:08:33.240 --> 00:08:35.190
имя, которым зовёт вас мама,

00:08:35.190 --> 00:08:37.260
фамилия, которой зовут сослуживцы.

00:08:37.260 --> 00:08:39.799
Пароль, легко запоминающийся, но
трудно угадываемый

00:08:39.799 --> 00:08:42.339
Подсказка к паролю, "напишите её 
еще раз"

00:08:42.340 --> 00:08:43.878
Думайте об этом, как о проверке

00:08:43.878 --> 00:08:46.699
Это практически стих, как вы 
заполняете форму.

00:08:46.700 --> 00:08:47.540
Ага?

00:08:47.540 --> 00:08:50.689
And this is a kind of like
thing where you like,

00:08:50.690 --> 00:08:52.110
oh, I like the people behind
this.

00:08:52.110 --> 00:08:53.850
I, I, I'm gonna enjoy this
experience.

00:08:53.850 --> 00:08:55.970
Now what does it say when
you fill out form like this?

00:08:55.970 --> 00:08:56.470
Right.

00:08:56.470 --> 00:08:58.960
On Yahoo, about what the
personality.

00:08:58.960 --> 00:08:59.890
Of the site it's gonna be.

00:08:59.890 --> 00:09:02.500
And what's disappointing to
me is like,

00:09:02.500 --> 00:09:04.570
Yahoo forces every product
and

00:09:04.570 --> 00:09:07.960
service under them to use
this exact same login form.

00:09:07.960 --> 00:09:09.450
Flickr, I had thought,

00:09:09.450 --> 00:09:11.280
had one of the best sort of
call to actions.

00:09:11.280 --> 00:09:13.699
It was, get in there.

00:09:13.700 --> 00:09:14.200
Right?

00:09:16.200 --> 00:09:17.259
This is Heroku's.

00:09:19.900 --> 00:09:19.650
Sign up page.

00:09:19.650 --> 00:09:21.230
I think this is an older
version.

00:09:21.230 --> 00:09:24.340
But, what's remarkable about
it is that, what you

00:09:24.340 --> 00:09:28.180
start getting a feel for is
like, oh, scaling up.

00:09:28.180 --> 00:09:29.000
My sort of server, and

00:09:29.000 --> 00:09:33.190
back end services is as easy
as sort of dragging up and

00:09:33.190 --> 00:09:36.460
down, different sort of nobs
and levers.

00:09:36.460 --> 00:09:37.820
It's gonna be beautifully
used, and

00:09:37.820 --> 00:09:39.570
it looks fairly easy to
scale.

00:09:41.260 --> 00:09:45.460
Since we're in a room full
of computer science people,

00:09:45.460 --> 00:09:46.880
I think you'll appreciate
this.

00:09:46.880 --> 00:09:47.660
This is Chocolat.

00:09:47.660 --> 00:09:49.750
This is a code editor, and

00:09:49.750 --> 00:09:51.320
they only have one call to
action.

00:09:51.320 --> 00:09:55.270
When the time limit is up,
they say, everything in

00:09:55.270 --> 00:09:58.500
terms of all the pieces are
exactly the same except we

00:09:58.500 --> 00:09:59.599
change the font.

00:09:59.600 --> 00:10:00.600
To comic sans.

00:10:03.670 --> 00:10:06.540
And what they're basically
saying is like hey

00:10:06.540 --> 00:10:09.932
we know who our users are,
who our real customers are.

00:10:09.932 --> 00:10:12.300
They're gonna be the people
who care about this.

00:10:15.470 --> 00:10:17.480
This is Hurl, this is a
website for

00:10:17.480 --> 00:10:22.580
checking htp requests, and
sometimes the places where

00:10:22.580 --> 00:10:24.650
you get errors are
opportunities for

00:10:24.650 --> 00:10:26.526
first moments,

00:10:26.527 --> 00:10:29.390
you had a four of four this
is what you get it,

00:10:29.390 --> 00:10:32.400
when we need help oftentimes
what we do is where we

00:10:32.400 --> 00:10:39.770
create like really beautiful
mark, marketing materials.

00:10:39.770 --> 00:10:42.819
But when you actually need,
like, documentation we sort

00:10:42.820 --> 00:10:45.850
of like skimp out on sort of
design features.

00:10:45.850 --> 00:10:48.600
And this is a point that,
like,

00:10:48.600 --> 00:10:49.829
you see happen over and over
again.

00:10:49.830 --> 00:10:51.520
A company that gets this
right is MailChimp.

00:10:51.520 --> 00:10:53.470
And what they did was they
redesigned all of their

00:10:53.470 --> 00:10:56.350
help guides so that they
looked like magazine covers.

00:10:56.350 --> 00:10:57.890
And overnight, basically,

00:10:57.890 --> 00:10:59.920
readership goes up on all
these features.

00:10:59.920 --> 00:11:02.790
And customer support for
these things that sort of

00:11:02.800 --> 00:11:04.220
help people optimize emails
goes down.

00:11:06.350 --> 00:11:08.400
Speaking of documentation,
stripe.

00:11:09.810 --> 00:11:13.550
What's interesting about an
API company is that there is

00:11:13.550 --> 00:11:14.339
no UX.

00:11:14.340 --> 00:11:16.810
The UX is actually just
documentation, right?

00:11:16.810 --> 00:11:19.390
And there's opportunities
even in documentation.

00:11:19.390 --> 00:11:20.720
Sort of the enchant and
amaze.

00:11:20.720 --> 00:11:21.660
So one of the things that I

00:11:21.660 --> 00:11:24.140
love about them is their
examples are wonderful.

00:11:24.140 --> 00:11:25.280
But if you're actually,
like,

00:11:25.280 --> 00:11:26.829
sort of logging into the
app,

00:11:26.830 --> 00:11:29.340
one of the things that is a
super pain for most people,

00:11:29.340 --> 00:11:30.770
when you're dealing with
most people's APIs, is,

00:11:30.770 --> 00:11:33.920
like, grabbing your API
credentials and keys.

00:11:33.920 --> 00:11:35.610
And what Stripe does is it
says oh,

00:11:35.610 --> 00:11:36.610
if you're logged into the
app.

00:11:36.610 --> 00:11:37.390
We automatically put

00:11:37.390 --> 00:11:40.110
your API credentials into
the examples, so you only

00:11:40.110 --> 00:11:43.900
have to copy paste once when
trying to learn their API.

00:11:47.600 --> 00:11:50.500
When Wufoo wanted to launch
the third version of our API

00:11:50.500 --> 00:11:51.939
we realized like, Okay, that
finally this is good enough

00:11:51.940 --> 00:11:54.700
that we want people to sort
of build on top of it.

00:11:54.700 --> 00:11:55.400
We were trying to figure
out,

00:11:55.400 --> 00:11:56.740
like, how do we launch this
out to the world,

00:11:56.740 --> 00:11:58.550
that sort of has our
personality behind it.

00:11:58.550 --> 00:11:59.430
Because a lot of people,

00:11:59.430 --> 00:12:02.000
they usually do things like
a programming API contest,

00:12:02.000 --> 00:12:03.960
and they give out iPads and
iPhones.

00:12:03.960 --> 00:12:05.830
And it makes you look like
everyone else.

00:12:05.830 --> 00:12:09.440
And so, in our company one
weird value to

00:12:09.440 --> 00:12:10.740
have it's a quirk of us,

00:12:10.740 --> 00:12:13.570
is that the co-founders are
big medieval nuts.

00:12:13.570 --> 00:12:16.510
And we take everyone out to
Medieval Times every single

00:12:16.510 --> 00:12:19.130
year, on the anniversary of
the founding of the company.

00:12:19.130 --> 00:12:21.760
And so, we said we have to
do something in that flavor.

00:12:21.760 --> 00:12:23.650
And so we contacted the guys
at armor.com,

00:12:23.650 --> 00:12:26.800
we said can you forward us a
custom battle-ax.

00:12:26.800 --> 00:12:27.630
And what we said was if

00:12:27.630 --> 00:12:31.580
you win our programming
contest you would win one.

00:12:33.390 --> 00:12:35.800
The result is like people
wanted to talk about this.

00:12:35.800 --> 00:12:37.380
It's something that people
wanted to work on cuz

00:12:37.380 --> 00:12:39.860
they wanted to be able to
say it like I'm programming.

00:12:39.860 --> 00:12:40.420
For a weapon.

00:12:43.269 --> 00:12:46.850
And what's cool is we had
over 25 different

00:12:46.850 --> 00:12:50.790
applications created for us
of quality and quantity that

00:12:50.790 --> 00:12:53.410
we could not have paid for
on the budget and

00:12:53.410 --> 00:12:54.819
the sort of time that we had
for this.

00:12:54.820 --> 00:12:56.150
We got things like an iPhone
app and

00:12:56.150 --> 00:12:58.720
Android and WordPress
plugins, right?

00:12:58.720 --> 00:13:00.850
And all because what we did
was we changed how

00:13:00.850 --> 00:13:02.520
people wanna talk about the
origin story of

00:13:02.520 --> 00:13:04.779
how they're interacting with
one of our services.

00:13:06.100 --> 00:13:08.990
And go like all day long of
going over these examples.

00:13:08.990 --> 00:13:11.000
But I'm gonna short cut this
by saying,

00:13:11.000 --> 00:13:12.750
you should just subscribe a
little bit of details.

00:13:12.750 --> 00:13:16.480
It's just basically tons of
screen shots of software

00:13:16.480 --> 00:13:17.370
that's just doing it right.

00:13:17.370 --> 00:13:18.160
That shows that they're
being

00:13:18.160 --> 00:13:21.980
conscientious of the user
and the customers.

00:13:28.467 --> 00:13:30.799
When it comes to long term
relationships or

00:13:30.799 --> 00:13:33.843
marriages, the only research
that we ended up having to

00:13:33.843 --> 00:13:37.390
read was the stuff that was
done by John Gottman.

00:13:37.390 --> 00:13:39.520
He's been featured in This
American Life,

00:13:39.520 --> 00:13:41.490
in Malcolm Gladwell's books.

00:13:41.490 --> 00:13:43.400
He's a marriage researcher
up in Seattle.

00:13:43.400 --> 00:13:45.250
And he has an interesting
parlor trick that he can do.

00:13:45.250 --> 00:13:48.730
He can watch a video tape of
a couple fighting about some

00:13:48.730 --> 00:13:50.320
issue for 15 minutes.

00:13:50.320 --> 00:13:52.900
And predict with an 85%
accuracy rate whether that

00:13:52.900 --> 00:13:53.930
couple will be together or

00:13:53.930 --> 00:13:55.630
not, or divorced in four
years.

00:13:56.780 --> 00:13:58.770
If he increases that video
up to an hour.

00:13:58.770 --> 00:14:00.620
And asks them to also talk
about their hopes and

00:14:00.620 --> 00:14:01.540
dreams.

00:14:01.540 --> 00:14:03.166
That prediction rating goes
up to 94%.

00:14:03.167 --> 00:14:06.150
They showed these same video
tapes to marriage

00:14:06.150 --> 00:14:07.699
counselors, successfully
married couples,

00:14:07.700 --> 00:14:11.630
sociologists, psychiatrists,
priests, et cetera and

00:14:11.630 --> 00:14:14.680
they can't predict with
random chance whether people

00:14:14.680 --> 00:14:16.250
are gonna be together or
not.

00:14:16.250 --> 00:14:18.590
So John Gauntman understands
something fundamental about.

00:14:19.910 --> 00:14:22.110
How relationships work in
the long term.

00:14:22.110 --> 00:14:25.650
And that basically how we
fight, even in a short term

00:14:25.650 --> 00:14:29.300
period can indicate sort of
the whole system and

00:14:29.300 --> 00:14:30.140
what it's gonna look like.

00:14:30.140 --> 00:14:31.900
And one of the surprising
things he discovered,

00:14:31.900 --> 00:14:32.420
it's not that

00:14:32.420 --> 00:14:34.430
successfully married people
don't fight at all.

00:14:34.430 --> 00:14:36.430
It turns out everybody
fights.

00:14:36.430 --> 00:14:39.890
And we all fight about the
exact same things money,

00:14:39.900 --> 00:14:41.300
kids, sex, time and others.

00:14:41.300 --> 00:14:45.262
And others are things like
jealousy and in-laws.

00:14:45.263 --> 00:14:47.543
To bring this around, right,
you can actually attribute

00:14:47.543 --> 00:14:49.543
every single one of these to
problems that you see in

00:14:49.543 --> 00:14:51.931
customer support when you're
building out your products.

00:14:53.368 --> 00:14:56.532
Right, so.

00:14:56.532 --> 00:14:58.447
This costs too much.

00:14:58.447 --> 00:15:00.401
I'm having problems with a
credit card.

00:15:00.401 --> 00:15:02.260
If you're building a service
that helps people deal with

00:15:02.260 --> 00:15:03.189
their clients they're very

00:15:03.190 --> 00:15:05.480
sensitive about anything
happening with that.

00:15:05.480 --> 00:15:06.530
Performance.

00:15:06.530 --> 00:15:08.750
How long you're up and how
fast.

00:15:10.780 --> 00:15:14.110
Others are I said jealousy
and in-laws.

00:15:14.110 --> 00:15:15.960
Right, so that's competition
and partnerships.

00:15:15.960 --> 00:15:17.310
So anything weird happening
there,

00:15:17.310 --> 00:15:19.890
people are gonna write to
you about.

00:15:19.900 --> 00:15:20.520
And the reason I like to
think about this in

00:15:20.520 --> 00:15:23.430
terms of customer support is
that in every ones that

00:15:23.430 --> 00:15:25.920
are processing of like a
conversion funnel,

00:15:25.920 --> 00:15:27.790
customer support is the
thing that happens in

00:15:27.790 --> 00:15:29.990
between every one of these
steps.

00:15:29.100 --> 00:15:30.720
It's the reason why people
don't make it

00:15:30.720 --> 00:15:31.650
further down there.

00:15:31.650 --> 00:15:33.629
It's the thing that prevents
conversion from happening.

00:15:35.460 --> 00:15:38.130
Now, as we were thinking
through all these ideas and

00:15:38.130 --> 00:15:39.680
as we were building up the
company,

00:15:39.680 --> 00:15:42.469
we realized that there's a
big problem about how

00:15:42.470 --> 00:15:43.760
everyone sort of starts
their company or

00:15:43.760 --> 00:15:46.230
build up their sort of
engineering teams.

00:15:46.230 --> 00:15:48.760
And that is that there's a
broken feedback loop there.

00:15:48.760 --> 00:15:50.560
People are divorced from the
consequences of

00:15:50.560 --> 00:15:51.810
their actions.

00:15:51.810 --> 00:15:53.579
And this is the result of
actually the natural

00:15:53.580 --> 00:15:55.600
evolution of how most
companies get founded,

00:15:55.600 --> 00:15:57.880
especially by technical
co-founders, right.

00:15:57.880 --> 00:16:01.630
Before launch it is a time
of bliss, nirvana, and

00:16:01.630 --> 00:16:03.500
opportunity, right?

00:16:03.500 --> 00:16:05.469
Nothing that you do is
wrong, right?

00:16:06.660 --> 00:16:09.850
By your hand, which you feel
is like god, everything that

00:16:09.850 --> 00:16:12.750
you write, every line of
code feels perfect, right,

00:16:12.750 --> 00:16:14.770
and is ingenious to you.

00:16:14.770 --> 00:16:17.829
The thing that happens is
after launch reality sort of

00:16:17.830 --> 00:16:20.300
sets in and then all these
other tasks sort of

00:16:20.300 --> 00:16:21.579
come into place that we have
to deal with.

00:16:23.330 --> 00:16:25.720
Now what technical
co-founders wanna do is get

00:16:25.720 --> 00:16:29.240
back to that initial state
and so what we often do,

00:16:29.240 --> 00:16:31.380
and what we often see is
that companies start

00:16:31.380 --> 00:16:34.240
siloing off all these other
things that actually is

00:16:34.240 --> 00:16:37.410
what makes a start up or a
company sort of real, right?

00:16:37.410 --> 00:16:39.540
And have other people do
them.

00:16:39.540 --> 00:16:42.589
To, in our minds, these
other tasks are inferior.

00:16:42.590 --> 00:16:43.660
Right?
And we have other people in

00:16:43.660 --> 00:16:44.310
the company do them.

00:16:45.822 --> 00:16:47.580
And so for us, what we're
trying to figure out

00:16:47.580 --> 00:16:49.590
is how do we change software
development so that we

00:16:49.590 --> 00:16:53.970
inject some values that we
don't talk about enough?

00:16:53.970 --> 00:16:55.970
Responsibility,
accountability,

00:16:55.970 --> 00:16:57.780
humility, modesty.

00:16:57.780 --> 00:17:01.300
Right, and we called this,
like a lot of other people,

00:17:01.300 --> 00:17:05.720
we had an acronym, Support
Driven Development, and

00:17:05.720 --> 00:17:09.900
it's very similar to TDD or
other agile practice.

00:17:09.900 --> 00:17:12.589
It's a way of creating high
quality software, but

00:17:12.589 --> 00:17:13.819
it's super simple.

00:17:13.819 --> 00:17:15.182
You don't need like, a
SCRUM,

00:17:15.182 --> 00:17:17.608
you don't need a bunch of
post-it notes, all you

00:17:17.608 --> 00:17:19.909
have to do is make everyone
do customer support.

00:17:21.880 --> 00:17:22.800
And what you end up having
is

00:17:22.800 --> 00:17:23.990
you fix the feedback loop,
right?

00:17:23.990 --> 00:17:25.450
The people who build the
software are the ones

00:17:25.450 --> 00:17:26.240
supporting it and

00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:28.940
you get all these sort of
nice benefits as a result.

00:17:30.320 --> 00:17:33.340
So one of them is, support
responsible developers and

00:17:33.340 --> 00:17:35.120
designers and people who
build the stuff,

00:17:35.120 --> 00:17:36.600
they give the very best
support.

00:17:36.600 --> 00:17:38.600
Now we're not the first
person to think of this.

00:17:38.600 --> 00:17:41.480
Paul English was a big
proporter of this at Kayak,

00:17:41.480 --> 00:17:44.750
and what he did was install
a red customer support phone

00:17:44.750 --> 00:17:46.640
line in the middle of the
engineering floor.

00:17:46.640 --> 00:17:49.950
And they were just regular
customer support calls.

00:17:49.950 --> 00:17:53.890
And people would ask him
often times,

00:17:53.890 --> 00:17:55.560
why would you pay engineers
$120,000 or

00:17:55.560 --> 00:17:59.389
more to do something that
you can pay other people

00:17:59.390 --> 00:18:02.890
a fraction of to handle in
like a call center?

00:18:02.890 --> 00:18:04.560
And he says, well, after the
second or

00:18:04.560 --> 00:18:06.929
third time that phone rings
and the engineer gets

00:18:06.930 --> 00:18:09.990
the same problem they stop
what they're doing, they fix

00:18:09.990 --> 00:18:13.940
the bug, and we stop getting
phone calls about it.

00:18:13.940 --> 00:18:16.670
It, it's a way of having Q-A
in a sort of

00:18:16.670 --> 00:18:17.840
nice elegant solution.

00:18:19.710 --> 00:18:23.820
Now, John Gotman talks about
the reason that we often

00:18:23.820 --> 00:18:26.600
break up with one another as
due to four major causes and

00:18:26.600 --> 00:18:27.389
their warning signs.

00:18:27.390 --> 00:18:29.300
He calls them the four
horsemen, right?

00:18:29.300 --> 00:18:32.830
Criticism, contempt,
defensiveness,

00:18:32.830 --> 00:18:33.679
and stonewalling.

00:18:33.680 --> 00:18:38.590
Now, criticism is basically
people starting to focus,

00:18:38.590 --> 00:18:40.350
not just on the specific
issue at hand, but

00:18:40.350 --> 00:18:41.447
on the overarching issues.

00:18:41.448 --> 00:18:45.780
Like, you never, right,
listen to your users or

00:18:45.780 --> 00:18:48.480
you never think about us all
the time.

00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:48.980
Right?

00:18:50.390 --> 00:18:53.880
Contempt is when someone is
purposely trying to

00:18:53.880 --> 00:18:55.170
insult somebody.

00:18:55.170 --> 00:18:59.620
Defensiveness is not trying
to take accountability

00:18:59.620 --> 00:19:01.810
trying to make excuses for
the actions.

00:19:01.810 --> 00:19:03.532
And stonewalling is
basically shutting down.

00:19:03.532 --> 00:19:07.120
Stonewalling, to John
Gotman, is, is one of

00:19:07.120 --> 00:19:09.250
the worst things that we can
do in a relationship.

00:19:09.260 --> 00:19:10.593
Hold up.

00:19:14.588 --> 00:19:17.711
And oftentimes, you know, we
don't worry much about this

00:19:17.711 --> 00:19:19.970
in customer se, criticism
and contempt.

00:19:19.970 --> 00:19:20.770
Right?
Defensiveness,

00:19:20.770 --> 00:19:22.530
you see this all the time,
all the times in companies,

00:19:22.530 --> 00:19:23.790
especially as they get
older.

00:19:23.790 --> 00:19:25.320
But stonewalling, this is
something I

00:19:25.320 --> 00:19:27.230
see happen with start-ups
all the time.

00:19:28.720 --> 00:19:30.100
You get a bunch of customer
support sort of

00:19:30.100 --> 00:19:32.379
coming in and you just think
I don't need to answer it.

00:19:32.380 --> 00:19:33.130
I don't need to respond.

00:19:33.130 --> 00:19:34.420
Right?
And

00:19:34.420 --> 00:19:36.410
that act of just not even
getting back to

00:19:36.410 --> 00:19:38.290
them is one of the worst
things you can do.

00:19:38.290 --> 00:19:40.159
And it's probably some of
the biggest causes of

00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:42.340
churn in the early stages of
start-ups.

00:19:43.580 --> 00:19:45.429
This is how support worked
out with Wufoo.

00:19:45.430 --> 00:19:48.250
When we were acquired we had
about 500,000 users on

00:19:48.250 --> 00:19:51.230
the system, 5 million people
used Wufoo forms and

00:19:51.230 --> 00:19:52.940
reports, whether they knew
it or not, and

00:19:52.940 --> 00:19:56.100
all those people got support
from the same ten people,

00:19:56.100 --> 00:19:56.639
and usually it was

00:19:56.640 --> 00:20:00.200
only one person dedicated
support a day, or any shift.

00:20:00.200 --> 00:20:02.180
Results in about 400 issues
a week.

00:20:02.180 --> 00:20:04.110
That's about 800 emails.

00:20:04.110 --> 00:20:05.928
But a response time from 9
a.m.

00:20:05.928 --> 00:20:06.440
to 9 p.m.
was

00:20:06.440 --> 00:20:07.865
between seven to 12 minutes.

00:20:07.865 --> 00:20:08.980
Right?
And from 9 p.m.

00:20:08.980 --> 00:20:11.130
to midnight it was an hour.

00:20:11.130 --> 00:20:13.300
And on the weekend it would
be no longer than 24 hours.

00:20:13.300 --> 00:20:16.200
And we carried this up all
the way up to the scale.

00:20:18.300 --> 00:20:19.780
What a lot of people forget
about, and

00:20:19.780 --> 00:20:23.200
often talk about with
Airbnb, is how, like oh,

00:20:23.200 --> 00:20:24.870
they did this interesting
thing where they had,

00:20:24.870 --> 00:20:26.699
went up to New York and
offered, like,

00:20:26.700 --> 00:20:28.280
professional photographers,
and the founders would go

00:20:28.280 --> 00:20:30.400
out there and actually take
pictures of

00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:31.860
the people's apartments to
help them sell more.

00:20:31.860 --> 00:20:34.389
Focusing on the stories
around conversion.

00:20:34.390 --> 00:20:36.440
What most people don't
realize is a lot of

00:20:36.440 --> 00:20:38.783
times when I saw Joe in the
early days of Airbnb,

00:20:38.783 --> 00:20:41.301
he had a phone, sort of head
set stuck to his head all

00:20:41.301 --> 00:20:44.720
the time, because he was
doing phone support nonstop.

00:20:46.286 --> 00:20:48.307
Churn is a story we don't
like to talk about often,

00:20:48.307 --> 00:20:49.280
all the time.

00:20:49.280 --> 00:20:52.540
Airbnb's sort of growth
really started picking up

00:20:52.540 --> 00:20:53.440
once they figured out

00:20:53.440 --> 00:20:56.300
how to match capacity to the
demand, or the phone

00:20:56.300 --> 00:20:58.730
calls that they were getting
into their support system.

00:21:00.580 --> 00:21:02.960
At Wufoo we actually
constantly did experiments

00:21:02.960 --> 00:21:05.550
around support, because
we're so obsessed with it.

00:21:05.550 --> 00:21:08.540
One experiment we did was,
we heard Kathy Sierra

00:21:08.540 --> 00:21:10.860
do a talk about there's a
disconnect between the

00:21:10.860 --> 00:21:14.580
motions that we have when we
need help, and sort of.

00:21:14.580 --> 00:21:16.620
The content and the
reactions we get from

00:21:16.620 --> 00:21:18.429
people when we get help from
them, especially online.

00:21:18.430 --> 00:21:22.780
Because they just don't see
all those nonverbal cues.

00:21:22.780 --> 00:21:25.440
So she said unless there's
face recognition on the web,

00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:26.420
we're just always going to
be

00:21:26.420 --> 00:21:27.980
disconnected from our users.

00:21:27.980 --> 00:21:28.760
Our feeling was,

00:21:28.760 --> 00:21:31.110
like, well we're not face
recognition experts but

00:21:31.110 --> 00:21:32.699
I think there's another way
of getting empathy.

00:21:32.700 --> 00:21:35.710
So, as form builders, we
added a drop-down and

00:21:35.710 --> 00:21:37.590
what we said was like, hey,
what's your emotional state?

00:21:39.640 --> 00:21:41.180
And our hypothesis was

00:21:41.180 --> 00:21:42.300
that no one was gonna fill
this out.

00:21:42.300 --> 00:21:45.790
We basically thought, oh
okay, you know what the,

00:21:45.790 --> 00:21:48.909
this is gonna be pretty a
lame experiment, but

00:21:48.910 --> 00:21:49.930
we'll see how it sort of
goes.

00:21:49.930 --> 00:21:51.125
And it turned out the
Emotional State

00:21:51.125 --> 00:21:53.770
drop-down field was filled
out 75.8% of the time.

00:21:55.300 --> 00:21:57.374
The browser type drop-down
filled just in

00:21:57.374 --> 00:22:00.184
comparison was filled out
78.1% of the time.

00:22:00.184 --> 00:22:00.816
All right?

00:22:00.816 --> 00:22:03.337
So people were basically
telling us, for

00:22:03.337 --> 00:22:06.506
my technical support issue
how I feel about this

00:22:06.506 --> 00:22:10.360
problem is just as important
as, like, all the technical

00:22:10.360 --> 00:22:13.220
details you need to sorta
figure out how to debug it.

00:22:14.480 --> 00:22:16.580
Now we didn't prioritize
things or

00:22:16.580 --> 00:22:18.379
triage things by emotion,
right, and for

00:22:18.380 --> 00:22:19.860
the most part, people didn't
game the system.

00:22:19.860 --> 00:22:22.820
One of the interesting
byproducts of it was that we

00:22:22.820 --> 00:22:24.450
noticed that people started
being nicer to

00:22:24.450 --> 00:22:25.850
us in the customer support.

00:22:25.850 --> 00:22:27.270
It was something sort of
subconscious.

00:22:27.270 --> 00:22:28.590
We just were thinking like,
wow,

00:22:28.590 --> 00:22:29.870
users are so much better
now.

00:22:29.870 --> 00:22:31.429
What's going on?

00:22:31.430 --> 00:22:33.710
And we went back and looked
at the data and

00:22:33.710 --> 00:22:36.910
we did some text analysis
and we realized is that, oh,

00:22:36.910 --> 00:22:39.790
when it comes to only
communicating with

00:22:39.790 --> 00:22:43.620
people over written words,
like email, there's

00:22:43.620 --> 00:22:45.750
only three ways that you
show strong emotions, right?

00:22:45.750 --> 00:22:49.560
Exclamation marks curse
words, and all caps.

00:22:49.560 --> 00:22:52.139
And sure enough on all three
of those metrics,

00:22:52.140 --> 00:22:52.840
they've gone down.

00:22:52.840 --> 00:22:55.700
In sort of the way people
were talking to us in

00:22:55.700 --> 00:22:56.340
the customer support.

00:22:56.340 --> 00:22:58.780
Once people had a simple
outlet for their emotions,

00:22:58.780 --> 00:23:00.340
right, people would be a lot
more rational,

00:23:00.340 --> 00:23:02.996
and it made our jobs a lot
more pleasant as a result.

00:23:02.997 --> 00:23:08.860
The other byproduct that is
awesome is that

00:23:08.860 --> 00:23:11.280
you actually build better
software when you do this.

00:23:11.280 --> 00:23:12.310
Far better software.

00:23:12.310 --> 00:23:14.900
This is actually backed up
by tons of research.

00:23:14.900 --> 00:23:16.189
Jared Spool, a user
interface engineer, which is

00:23:16.190 --> 00:23:18.745
sort of the big players in
this space says like,

00:23:18.745 --> 00:23:21.399
there's a direct correlation
to how much time we

00:23:21.400 --> 00:23:24.810
spend directly exposed to
users and

00:23:24.810 --> 00:23:27.800
how good our designs sort of
get.

00:23:27.800 --> 00:23:28.800
He says it has to come in
this specific way.

00:23:28.800 --> 00:23:30.680
It has to be direct
exposure, right?

00:23:30.680 --> 00:23:31.710
It can't be something where

00:23:31.710 --> 00:23:34.370
someone generates a report
or through a graph, you

00:23:34.370 --> 00:23:37.700
have to be interacting with
them somewhat real time.

00:23:37.700 --> 00:23:39.290
It has to be a minimum of
every six weeks.

00:23:39.290 --> 00:23:41.180
And it has to be for at
least two hours.

00:23:41.180 --> 00:23:43.720
Otherwise your software will
get worse over time.

00:23:46.340 --> 00:23:48.860
Our developers, our people
who are on,

00:23:48.860 --> 00:23:51.200
on Wufoo were getting
exposed to our users four to

00:23:51.200 --> 00:23:52.820
eight hours every single
week.

00:23:54.280 --> 00:23:56.570
And what it does is it
changes the way you sort of

00:23:56.570 --> 00:23:57.437
build software.

00:23:57.437 --> 00:24:00.149
Jared Spool has another way
of talking about how

00:24:00.150 --> 00:24:01.380
we build products.

00:24:01.380 --> 00:24:02.650
Right?

00:24:02.650 --> 00:24:06.780
Let's imagine that this
represents all the knowledge

00:24:06.780 --> 00:24:09.899
needed to sort of use your
app on a spectrum.

00:24:09.900 --> 00:24:11.770
Right?
This is like no knowledge.

00:24:11.770 --> 00:24:12.340
Right?
And this is

00:24:12.340 --> 00:24:13.780
all the knowledge needed.

00:24:13.780 --> 00:24:14.300
Right?
And

00:24:14.300 --> 00:24:16.280
these two lines are pretty
much your interactions with

00:24:16.280 --> 00:24:17.610
users what you're trying to
get them to.

00:24:17.610 --> 00:24:20.270
This is currently where
their knowledge point is and

00:24:20.270 --> 00:24:22.460
this is the target knowledge
point that you're trying to

00:24:22.460 --> 00:24:25.250
get them to, to understand
that to use your app.

00:24:25.250 --> 00:24:27.102
The gap between those is
called the knowledge gap,

00:24:27.102 --> 00:24:28.497
Jared Spool called it, Spool
calls.

00:24:28.497 --> 00:24:31.846
And what's interesting about
this is there's only two

00:24:31.846 --> 00:24:34.280
ways, right, to sort of fix
this.

00:24:34.280 --> 00:24:36.129
That gap represents how
intuitive your

00:24:36.130 --> 00:24:38.100
app is, right?

00:24:38.100 --> 00:24:41.210
You either get the user to
increase their

00:24:41.210 --> 00:24:44.800
knowledge or you decrease
the amount of knowledge

00:24:44.800 --> 00:24:45.871
that's needed to use your
application.

00:24:45.872 --> 00:24:48.450
And oftentimes, as engineers
and people who build and

00:24:48.450 --> 00:24:50.699
work on products, we think
let's add new features.

00:24:51.800 --> 00:24:52.790
And new features only

00:24:52.790 --> 00:24:55.149
means let's increase the
knowledge gap.

00:24:57.870 --> 00:25:00.700
So for us we actually
focused a lot on

00:25:00.700 --> 00:25:01.792
the other sort of direction.

00:25:01.792 --> 00:25:03.530
And so what that meant we
spent a lot of time,

00:25:03.530 --> 00:25:06.870
30% of our engineering time
was spent on internal tools

00:25:06.870 --> 00:25:09.101
to help with our customer
support stuff.

00:25:09.102 --> 00:25:10.200
But oftentimes it

00:25:10.200 --> 00:25:12.750
was spent helping people
help themselves.

00:25:12.750 --> 00:25:15.870
Things like frequently asked
questions, tool tips.

00:25:15.870 --> 00:25:17.649
Things like, if you just
click the help link,

00:25:17.650 --> 00:25:20.510
right, instead of taking you
to the generic help sort of

00:25:20.510 --> 00:25:21.480
documentation page,

00:25:21.480 --> 00:25:24.150
you go to the specific page
where you're looking at

00:25:24.150 --> 00:25:25.540
is going to be most, sort
of,

00:25:25.540 --> 00:25:27.960
appropriate for what you're
working on.

00:25:27.960 --> 00:25:29.700
We redesigned our
documentation over and

00:25:29.700 --> 00:25:31.870
over again, AB tested it
constantly.

00:25:31.870 --> 00:25:34.400
One iteration of our
documentation reduced

00:25:34.400 --> 00:25:36.290
customer support by 30% over
night.

00:25:37.330 --> 00:25:38.900
It's one of those things
where,

00:25:38.900 --> 00:25:41.399
like, overnight, all the
people that work on

00:25:41.400 --> 00:25:43.960
the product immediately had
30% less work to do.

00:25:46.800 --> 00:25:48.490
Now what happens if you have
everyone work on

00:25:48.490 --> 00:25:49.630
customer support constantly,
and

00:25:49.630 --> 00:25:52.220
thinking about it in terms
of a remarkable way?

00:25:52.220 --> 00:25:53.430
Well, I talked a lot about,

00:25:53.430 --> 00:25:56.290
in the very beginning growth
is a function of

00:25:56.290 --> 00:25:58.000
conversion and churn.

00:25:58.000 --> 00:26:01.140
This is Wufoo's growth curve
for the first five years.

00:26:01.140 --> 00:26:02.270
Right?

00:26:02.270 --> 00:26:03.389
What's interesting is that
we

00:26:03.390 --> 00:26:08.200
paid no money on
advertising, on marketing.

00:26:08.200 --> 00:26:10.720
All of it was done by word
of mouth growth.

00:26:10.720 --> 00:26:11.800
Right?

00:26:11.800 --> 00:26:13.480
And the interaction between,
like,

00:26:13.480 --> 00:26:16.460
new users and downgrades are
this.

00:26:18.570 --> 00:26:20.939
It's so slight what it
takes, that gap,

00:26:20.940 --> 00:26:21.800
making that sort of work.

00:26:21.800 --> 00:26:24.710
And what a lot of people
keep forgetting is that

00:26:24.710 --> 00:26:26.970
there's almost no difference
between an increase in

00:26:26.970 --> 00:26:30.370
conversion rate, 1% increase
and a 1% decrease churn.

00:26:30.370 --> 00:26:32.840
They do exactly the same
thing to your growth.

00:26:32.840 --> 00:26:35.709
However, the ladder is
actually much easier to do.

00:26:35.710 --> 00:26:38.380
It's much cheaper to do, in
your apps, and

00:26:38.380 --> 00:26:39.940
a lot of the times we
neglect this,

00:26:39.940 --> 00:26:42.100
neglect this to way far
along.

00:26:42.100 --> 00:26:42.960
Right?
And we usually have our

00:26:42.960 --> 00:26:46.900
B team works on these sort
of projects and services.

00:26:46.900 --> 00:26:47.770
This is actually not the
graph that we track most of

00:26:47.770 --> 00:26:49.250
the time at Wufoo, it's not
even the one I'm proud of.

00:26:49.250 --> 00:26:51.855
This is the one I'm proud
of.

00:26:51.855 --> 00:26:54.980
Cuz even though we have this
sort of nice, awesome curve

00:26:54.980 --> 00:26:58.400
of growth, this is what, how
loud is this scale?

00:26:58.400 --> 00:27:00.340
Keep the company small, have
an awesome culture.

00:27:01.680 --> 00:27:02.920
And that required doing a
lot of

00:27:02.920 --> 00:27:08.796
these things to help people
sort of do what they need.

00:27:08.796 --> 00:27:13.709
So John Gotman noticed there
was a different type of

00:27:13.709 --> 00:27:18.978
behavior for relationships
and why people divorced.

00:27:18.978 --> 00:27:21.938
Basically there would be
some subset of people who

00:27:21.938 --> 00:27:24.404
would stay together 10, 15
years and

00:27:24.404 --> 00:27:26.870
then all of a sudden they
divorce and

00:27:26.870 --> 00:27:29.899
there was none of the other
indicators which sort of

00:27:29.899 --> 00:27:32.320
show that this is what was
gonna happen.

00:27:32.320 --> 00:27:34.670
And I was looking through
the data and

00:27:34.670 --> 00:27:35.868
I realized oh, there's no
passion,

00:27:35.868 --> 00:27:38.194
there's no fire between
these people, right?

00:27:38.194 --> 00:27:39.678
When it comes to
relationships they

00:27:39.679 --> 00:27:42.590
kinda follow the second law
of thermodynamics, right?

00:27:42.590 --> 00:27:44.505
In a closed energy system
things tend to run down so

00:27:44.506 --> 00:27:46.662
you have to constantly be
putting energy and

00:27:46.662 --> 00:27:47.720
effort back into it.

00:27:47.720 --> 00:27:50.430
Now the way a lot of people
sort of think about showing

00:27:50.430 --> 00:27:54.400
people that I care about you
in products and in companies

00:27:54.400 --> 00:27:56.870
is to do things like let's
have a blog, right?

00:27:56.870 --> 00:27:58.239
Lets' have a newsletter?

00:27:59.460 --> 00:28:01.870
The thing is, we look at
these rates and basically it

00:28:01.870 --> 00:28:03.959
was such a small percentage
of our active users that it

00:28:03.960 --> 00:28:06.290
was like, most of our users
have no idea all

00:28:06.290 --> 00:28:08.659
the awesome stuff that we're
doing for them.

00:28:08.660 --> 00:28:09.980
So we built a new tool.

00:28:09.980 --> 00:28:11.540
We called it the Wufoo
system, and

00:28:11.540 --> 00:28:13.570
what it allowed us to do was
just time stamp every new

00:28:13.570 --> 00:28:15.990
feature that we're building
for users and

00:28:15.990 --> 00:28:17.540
then every time they would
log in, we would look at

00:28:17.540 --> 00:28:20.830
the difference between their
log in time or last log in

00:28:20.830 --> 00:28:22.580
time and the new features
that were implemented.

00:28:22.580 --> 00:28:24.120
And when you had this
message show up,

00:28:24.120 --> 00:28:25.300
hey since you've been gone

00:28:25.300 --> 00:28:27.800
here's all the awesome stuff
that Wufoo did for you.

00:28:27.800 --> 00:28:29.840
Hands down this was the most
talked about feature I've

00:28:29.840 --> 00:28:32.584
ever had every time I went
out to talk to users.

00:28:32.585 --> 00:28:34.860
Right they'd say like dude I
love that since you've be,

00:28:34.860 --> 00:28:37.490
since you've gone thing even
though I pay the same amount

00:28:37.490 --> 00:28:39.510
every single month you guys
are doing something for

00:28:39.510 --> 00:28:42.110
me almost every week and
it's totally awesome and

00:28:42.110 --> 00:28:43.780
makes me feel, I'm getting
maximum value.

00:28:47.200 --> 00:28:48.200
The other thing that we did
in

00:28:48.200 --> 00:28:50.300
addition to having everyone
support the people that

00:28:50.300 --> 00:28:52.500
paid their pay check is have
them say thank you.

00:28:52.500 --> 00:28:56.790
And this was a large part
due to us injecting sort of

00:28:56.790 --> 00:28:59.280
humility and modesty in to
sort of the equation.

00:29:01.200 --> 00:29:03.270
Every single Friday we would
get together and

00:29:03.270 --> 00:29:05.350
we'd just write simple hand
written thank you cards to

00:29:05.350 --> 00:29:06.290
our users.

00:29:07.340 --> 00:29:10.606
And I know there's tons of
people who would not be sort

00:29:10.606 --> 00:29:13.799
of excited about doing this,
but it was a ritual that

00:29:13.799 --> 00:29:16.485
made sort of all the
difference in terms of,

00:29:16.485 --> 00:29:19.822
like, having a team that was
very tightly neat,

00:29:19.822 --> 00:29:21.226
tightly knit, also.

00:29:21.226 --> 00:29:23.190
And working on stuff that
they really cared about.

00:29:23.190 --> 00:29:26.130
They always constantly knew
what the mission was for,

00:29:26.130 --> 00:29:27.960
and why we sort of did what
we did.

00:29:27.960 --> 00:29:30.100
These aren't fancy thank you
cards, right?

00:29:30.100 --> 00:29:30.810
They're just simple,

00:29:30.810 --> 00:29:32.860
like handwritten stuff on an
index card.

00:29:32.860 --> 00:29:33.990
We threw in a sticker, and

00:29:33.990 --> 00:29:37.140
slapped on a dinosaur on the
front of it.

00:29:37.140 --> 00:29:41.720
And, what's interesting is
we started this practice as

00:29:41.720 --> 00:29:45.830
a result of the early days
of starting Wufoo.

00:29:45.830 --> 00:29:48.390
Chris, Ron, and I were
talking, and we're trying to

00:29:48.390 --> 00:29:50.103
figure out, what are we
gonna do to sort of show

00:29:50.103 --> 00:29:52.139
users that we appreciate
them around Christmas.

00:29:52.139 --> 00:29:55.341
And he, Chris came up with
this idea where he said

00:29:55.341 --> 00:29:58.824
hey guys, so a couple years
ago my mom, like, made me

00:29:58.825 --> 00:30:01.831
write thank you notes to all
of my relatives.

00:30:01.831 --> 00:30:03.554
For my Christmas gifts.

00:30:03.555 --> 00:30:05.440
And I didn't really like to
do it but

00:30:05.440 --> 00:30:07.750
the following year all my
presents were super good.

00:30:07.750 --> 00:30:12.170
So, I think we should try
this for our business and

00:30:12.170 --> 00:30:13.770
see how it goes.

00:30:13.770 --> 00:30:17.320
So, that first year we wrote
handwritten Christmas cards

00:30:17.320 --> 00:30:19.750
to all of our users that
first year.

00:30:19.750 --> 00:30:21.360
Second year rolls around,
and

00:30:21.360 --> 00:30:22.679
we have too many customers,
like, and

00:30:22.680 --> 00:30:24.670
it's still just the three
founders.

00:30:24.670 --> 00:30:26.920
And we were going like we're
kinda screwed,

00:30:26.920 --> 00:30:28.650
I don't know what we're
gonna do.

00:30:28.650 --> 00:30:30.940
And we read a book called
the ultimate question, and

00:30:30.940 --> 00:30:32.540
in it he talks about hey,

00:30:32.540 --> 00:30:35.490
just focus on your most
profitable users.

00:30:35.490 --> 00:30:36.510
And just tend them and

00:30:36.510 --> 00:30:38.330
take care of them, then
it'll work out.

00:30:38.330 --> 00:30:38.909
So we're like, all right,

00:30:38.910 --> 00:30:41.000
that, that makes sense,
that's scalable.

00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:41.770
So that year we

00:30:41.770 --> 00:30:43.459
only write to our highest
paying customers.

00:30:44.480 --> 00:30:47.630
And the January rolls around
that second year and

00:30:47.630 --> 00:30:50.540
one of our long time loyal
users writes us and

00:30:50.540 --> 00:30:55.620
he's basically like, hey
guys I, I really loved

00:30:55.620 --> 00:30:58.290
that Christmas card you sent
me the first year and I just

00:30:58.290 --> 00:31:01.000
wanted you to know I haven't
received my second card yet

00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:02.520
and I'm just looking forward
to it.

00:31:02.520 --> 00:31:04.400
I know you didn't forget
about me.

00:31:06.500 --> 00:31:07.399
Thanks a lot.

00:31:07.400 --> 00:31:11.930
So we're like, fuck, because
the best way to sort of

00:31:11.930 --> 00:31:13.890
exceed expectations is not
to send any to begin with,

00:31:13.890 --> 00:31:15.500
so we were like sort of in
this conundrum.

00:31:15.500 --> 00:31:17.940
And what we decided, after
thinking about it for

00:31:17.940 --> 00:31:20.270
a while, is that we need to
stop doing it,

00:31:20.270 --> 00:31:22.400
you know, just one time a
year.

00:31:22.400 --> 00:31:23.760
It needs to be something
that's part of the culture.

00:31:23.760 --> 00:31:25.800
Happens every, every, every
sort of week, even.

00:31:25.800 --> 00:31:27.950
And even though we'll never
catch up to all of

00:31:27.950 --> 00:31:29.500
our customers.

00:31:29.500 --> 00:31:29.710
Just the practice of

00:31:29.710 --> 00:31:31.490
doing it will make all the
difference.

00:31:33.300 --> 00:31:34.310
I talked a lot

00:31:34.310 --> 00:31:37.320
about a bunch of like
lovey-dovey stuff and

00:31:37.320 --> 00:31:39.470
sort of like touchy-feely
things that I think a lot of

00:31:39.470 --> 00:31:41.450
engineers don't like to
think about too often.

00:31:41.450 --> 00:31:45.570
And so I'll end on some sort
of hard business

00:31:45.570 --> 00:31:47.320
data or research.

00:31:47.320 --> 00:31:49.159
There's an article that was
put out by

00:31:49.160 --> 00:31:51.220
the Harvard Business Review
several years ago by

00:31:51.220 --> 00:31:53.800
Michael Treacy and Fred
Wiersema and in it they

00:31:53.800 --> 00:31:55.560
talk about the discipline of
market leaders.

00:31:55.560 --> 00:31:57.360
They say there's only three
ways that you

00:31:57.360 --> 00:32:01.629
achieve market dominance and
depending on how you want to

00:32:01.630 --> 00:32:03.300
achieve that market
dominance you have

00:32:03.300 --> 00:32:05.870
to organize your company in
a very specific way.

00:32:05.870 --> 00:32:09.350
Best price, best product and
best overall solution.

00:32:09.350 --> 00:32:09.860
If you want to be

00:32:09.860 --> 00:32:12.270
the best price out there you
focus on logistics.

00:32:12.270 --> 00:32:13.680
A Wal-Mart, an Amazon.

00:32:13.680 --> 00:32:15.390
If you want to be the best
product out there you

00:32:15.390 --> 00:32:16.540
focus on R&D.

00:32:16.540 --> 00:32:17.460
Apple's usually

00:32:17.460 --> 00:32:19.490
a quintessential example of
that.

00:32:19.490 --> 00:32:21.400
Best overall solution is
about

00:32:21.400 --> 00:32:21.930
being customer intimate.

00:32:21.930 --> 00:32:23.410
And this is the path that
you see followed by

00:32:23.410 --> 00:32:25.950
luxury brands and
hospitality industry.

00:32:27.190 --> 00:32:30.400
What I love about this path
towards market dominance is

00:32:30.400 --> 00:32:34.750
that the third one is the
only one that

00:32:34.750 --> 00:32:37.620
everyone can do at any stage
of their company.

00:32:37.620 --> 00:32:40.459
Requires almost no money to
get started with.

00:32:40.460 --> 00:32:41.540
Usually just co.

00:32:41.540 --> 00:32:44.780
Requires a little bit of
humility and some manners.

00:32:44.780 --> 00:32:48.590
And as a result you can
achieve the success as any

00:32:48.590 --> 00:32:50.189
other people in sort of your
market.

00:32:52.110 --> 00:32:53.679
That's all I got.

00:32:53.680 --> 00:32:54.340
Thank you very much.

00:33:00.370 --> 00:33:03.229
Yeah, let's take some
questions if you guys

00:33:03.230 --> 00:33:03.912
have any.

00:33:03.912 --> 00:33:04.854
Right in the back there.

00:33:04.854 --> 00:33:07.339
>> Building products that
users love?

00:33:07.339 --> 00:33:10.341
You might have multiple
different types of users.

00:33:10.342 --> 00:33:14.150
How do you build one product
that all users love?

00:33:14.150 --> 00:33:16.150
Maybe there is a feature
that one really likes but

00:33:16.150 --> 00:33:18.110
detracts value from one
that.

00:33:18.110 --> 00:33:19.149
>> All right.
So what do you do

00:33:19.150 --> 00:33:20.950
when you have a product with
lots of

00:33:20.950 --> 00:33:22.250
different type of users,
right?

00:33:22.250 --> 00:33:23.490
Some users will love one
thing and

00:33:23.490 --> 00:33:25.250
another will, will another.

00:33:25.250 --> 00:33:25.970
And I agree, there's

00:33:25.970 --> 00:33:27.290
a interesting fine line for
that.

00:33:27.290 --> 00:33:29.370
What I always, usually tell
people,

00:33:29.370 --> 00:33:31.700
is focus on the people who
are the most passionate,

00:33:31.700 --> 00:33:32.360
especially in the early
stages.

00:33:32.360 --> 00:33:34.200
Right?
Whoever's, whatever niche

00:33:34.200 --> 00:33:37.320
it's gonna be, that's who I
focus on completely.

00:33:37.320 --> 00:33:39.280
Things that a lot of
different projects did.

00:33:39.280 --> 00:33:40.139
I think Ben Silverman of

00:33:40.140 --> 00:33:43.290
Pinterest started off with a
designer bloggers, right?

00:33:43.290 --> 00:33:44.900
Curtail your thing for

00:33:44.900 --> 00:33:46.610
them and eventually you'll
figure out sort of universal

00:33:46.610 --> 00:33:49.149
values that will appeal to a
lot of other people.

00:33:49.150 --> 00:33:50.920
So, just start one at a
time.

00:33:50.920 --> 00:33:51.720
And.

00:33:51.720 --> 00:33:53.900
The, a lot of the examples
that you see up there,

00:33:53.900 --> 00:33:55.280
a lot of people make the
mistake is like, oh,

00:33:55.280 --> 00:33:56.960
I'll just make my app funny.

00:33:56.960 --> 00:34:00.130
But, humor is like really
difficult to do.

00:34:00.130 --> 00:34:01.200
Right?
What you wanna shoot for

00:34:01.200 --> 00:34:02.350
is something sort of witty.

00:34:02.350 --> 00:34:03.719
And, quite honestly,

00:34:03.720 --> 00:34:05.730
you have to get
functionality right.

00:34:05.730 --> 00:34:07.220
So like the Japanese
quality.

00:34:07.220 --> 00:34:10.210
If you don't have a on
there, right, don't try to

00:34:10.210 --> 00:34:13.100
do anything witty, right,
cuz it will backfire on you.

00:34:13.100 --> 00:34:15.806
So hands down, our number
one focus is make it as

00:34:15.806 --> 00:34:18.107
easy to use as possible for
and

00:34:18.108 --> 00:34:20.159
anything else on top was
polish.

00:34:20.159 --> 00:34:20.596
Right here.

00:34:20.596 --> 00:34:28.310
>> So so everybody says that
to focus on your product.

00:34:28.310 --> 00:34:29.290
I'm also good at that.

00:34:29.300 --> 00:34:32.300
I love to do a project and I
love to make it the best.

00:34:32.300 --> 00:34:35.100
But we are to that certain
point that we are focused on

00:34:35.100 --> 00:34:37.509
our product but we don't get
like constantly right?

00:34:37.510 --> 00:34:38.270
Sorry.

00:34:38.270 --> 00:34:41.639
So second thing so how much
we should focus on product?

00:34:41.639 --> 00:34:43.639
But because we should do now
marketing.

00:34:43.639 --> 00:34:45.489
We should get somebody
customers and

00:34:45.489 --> 00:34:47.978
like and like start talking
to customers but

00:34:47.980 --> 00:34:50.179
when you are too focused on
your product.

00:34:50.179 --> 00:34:52.940
Like users online have them.

00:34:52.940 --> 00:34:55.460
Right, so what exactly do
you guys mean when you

00:34:55.460 --> 00:34:57.856
are saying like focus only
on your product and

00:34:57.856 --> 00:34:59.130
give the best product?

00:34:59.130 --> 00:35:01.548
>> Okay.

00:35:01.548 --> 00:35:04.955
So the question sort of is
how do we balance this

00:35:04.955 --> 00:35:07.889
sort of thing where we wanna
be obsessed with

00:35:07.889 --> 00:35:09.800
working on product.

00:35:09.800 --> 00:35:11.630
Yet.
But all the other skills,

00:35:11.630 --> 00:35:14.800
and sort of tasks that are
needed by a company,

00:35:14.800 --> 00:35:15.509
like marketing and branding
and

00:35:15.510 --> 00:35:17.730
all that stuff, and how, how
we sort of balance that.

00:35:17.730 --> 00:35:20.100
And the thing is, like, it
starts off as you juggling,

00:35:20.100 --> 00:35:22.540
like, tons of things
constantly in the air.

00:35:22.540 --> 00:35:24.440
The thing is, if you're
working on products, like,

00:35:24.440 --> 00:35:26.500
you should also always have
this flip side as

00:35:26.500 --> 00:35:28.500
when you're talking to
users.

00:35:28.500 --> 00:35:28.560
Right?
And for

00:35:28.560 --> 00:35:31.900
us inside of Wufoo, the way
we got people to talk to

00:35:31.100 --> 00:35:32.440
users is they just did
customer support.

00:35:32.440 --> 00:35:34.680
And they got to see
firsthand, right away.

00:35:34.680 --> 00:35:35.930
Whether that feature sucked
or not,

00:35:35.930 --> 00:35:37.500
and also impacted everyone
else in the company,

00:35:37.500 --> 00:35:39.420
because everyone had a
customer support shift.

00:35:39.420 --> 00:35:42.170
So you have this sort of
social incentive to sort of

00:35:42.170 --> 00:35:43.360
make everything work.

00:35:43.360 --> 00:35:46.150
And so, like I said, there
should be no point where

00:35:46.150 --> 00:35:47.230
you're only focused on
product.

00:35:47.230 --> 00:35:49.340
You should always have time
where you work on product,

00:35:49.340 --> 00:35:51.420
and then you see sort of
what users say, say to you.

00:35:51.420 --> 00:35:53.270
And you should always have
this virtual, like,

00:35:53.270 --> 00:35:54.420
feedback loop on there.

00:35:54.420 --> 00:35:56.630
So be careful when you don't
have that.

00:35:56.630 --> 00:35:58.340
Usually what ends up
happening, if you're lucky.

00:35:59.380 --> 00:36:00.700
In terms of marketing and

00:36:00.700 --> 00:36:03.700
sales, like, usually my
feeling is like, you have to

00:36:03.700 --> 00:36:05.900
spend money on marketing and
advertising, all this stuff.

00:36:05.900 --> 00:36:06.680
It's usually a tax you pay
because you

00:36:06.680 --> 00:36:08.279
haven't made your product
remarkable.

00:36:08.280 --> 00:36:09.510
Right?

00:36:09.510 --> 00:36:11.630
Word of mouth growth is the
easiest kind of growth, and

00:36:11.630 --> 00:36:14.260
it's how a lot of the great
companies sort of grow.

00:36:14.260 --> 00:36:16.220
So figure out how to wait,
how to like,

00:36:16.220 --> 00:36:18.120
have a story that people
want to tell.

00:36:18.120 --> 00:36:18.830
About your product.

00:36:18.830 --> 00:36:20.400
Where they're the most
interesting person at

00:36:20.400 --> 00:36:21.660
the dinner table, right?

00:36:21.660 --> 00:36:23.819
And then that person is your
sales person, right?

00:36:23.820 --> 00:36:25.462
That person is your sales
force for you.

00:36:25.462 --> 00:36:28.106
Right here.

00:36:28.106 --> 00:36:32.112
>> like, where do you find
crystal clear customer or

00:36:32.112 --> 00:36:36.140
user need and the demand is
there is the right solution.

00:36:36.140 --> 00:36:38.100
How do you communicate with
engineering and

00:36:38.100 --> 00:36:41.710
designing team to make sure
that because sometimes

00:36:41.710 --> 00:36:44.470
people in the team come up
with ideas, and but

00:36:44.470 --> 00:36:45.620
still at the end of the day,

00:36:45.620 --> 00:36:48.339
how can you make a decision
with where to go?

00:36:48.340 --> 00:36:50.300
>> Oh, so how do you make a
decision on product?

00:36:51.580 --> 00:36:53.000
And communicate that with
your sort of

00:36:53.000 --> 00:36:54.350
engineering team when
there's like lots of

00:36:54.350 --> 00:36:55.410
different directions to go?

00:36:57.290 --> 00:36:58.950
My feeling is that.

00:37:01.150 --> 00:37:03.180
So for us we just looked at
support.

00:37:03.180 --> 00:37:04.180
It was really easy cuz

00:37:04.180 --> 00:37:06.480
you often just saw what are
things that

00:37:06.480 --> 00:37:08.410
people are having the most
amount of problems with?

00:37:08.410 --> 00:37:09.980
Or people asking all the
time.

00:37:09.980 --> 00:37:12.360
You cannot help but get
feature requests from

00:37:12.360 --> 00:37:14.280
people no matter like
whatever opening or

00:37:14.280 --> 00:37:15.940
orifice you have in your
product or app.

00:37:15.940 --> 00:37:18.430
Like, people will like jam
feature requests in there.

00:37:18.430 --> 00:37:19.210
So you're easily going to

00:37:19.210 --> 00:37:20.450
know sort of what they sort
of what.

00:37:20.450 --> 00:37:22.270
Your job as a product person
and

00:37:22.270 --> 00:37:25.500
engineer is to not just do
what they say, because that

00:37:25.500 --> 00:37:27.680
way, you'll just be a slave,
is to figure out,

00:37:27.680 --> 00:37:30.930
sort of deeply, what are the
reasons why underlying those

00:37:30.930 --> 00:37:33.410
things and sort of solve
that deep underlying reason.

00:37:33.410 --> 00:37:34.606
The thing is that everyone
wants to

00:37:34.606 --> 00:37:35.990
have a different way of.

00:37:35.990 --> 00:37:38.390
To sort of go, then
ultimately it comes down to,

00:37:38.390 --> 00:37:39.850
like, someone's gonna figure
something out.

00:37:39.850 --> 00:37:43.180
But I also make the smallest
version of each little idea.

00:37:43.180 --> 00:37:46.800
No longer than a week or two
weeks to build it out there.

00:37:46.800 --> 00:37:46.980
And you can try them out and

00:37:46.980 --> 00:37:48.890
see sort of what works and
don't work.

00:37:48.890 --> 00:37:50.600
I think it's dangerous to

00:37:50.600 --> 00:37:51.799
have multiple different
product directions that

00:37:51.800 --> 00:37:53.879
requires lots of time to
sort of figure out.

00:37:55.430 --> 00:37:56.490
Sam.

00:37:56.500 --> 00:37:57.760
>> Related to that can you
tell the story of

00:37:57.760 --> 00:38:00.910
how the king for a day thing
>> Yeah.

00:38:00.910 --> 00:38:01.770
Okay.
So

00:38:03.920 --> 00:38:06.760
so I don't like hackathons.

00:38:06.760 --> 00:38:09.660
I think they sort of suck in
terms of ones done inside

00:38:09.660 --> 00:38:10.210
of companies.

00:38:10.210 --> 00:38:11.270
Because.

00:38:11.270 --> 00:38:13.937
You spend like 48 hours
working on something really

00:38:13.937 --> 00:38:16.125
hard that you're sort of
passionate about and

00:38:16.125 --> 00:38:20.280
99% of them never make it to
production right, and

00:38:20.280 --> 00:38:22.410
it's sort, sort of real like
super sad.

00:38:22.410 --> 00:38:24.190
So for us we like flipped it
on it's head and

00:38:24.190 --> 00:38:25.720
we came up with an idea that
we called king for

00:38:25.720 --> 00:38:28.600
a day and it actually worked
over the weekend.

00:38:28.600 --> 00:38:31.920
But how it worked is someone
randomly in the company got

00:38:31.920 --> 00:38:34.660
drawn and they got to be the
king, and the king got to

00:38:34.660 --> 00:38:36.399
tell everyone else what to
do on the product.

00:38:36.400 --> 00:38:39.850
So everything that was
bothering them about Wufoo.

00:38:39.850 --> 00:38:40.890
About the customer support
stuff, or

00:38:40.890 --> 00:38:42.529
some feature they really
want to have built.

00:38:42.530 --> 00:38:44.440
They've got the engineering
resources, the market

00:38:44.440 --> 00:38:46.650
resources, the advertising
resources of everyone inside

00:38:46.650 --> 00:38:48.670
of the company, to make it
sort of happen.

00:38:48.670 --> 00:38:49.770
And of course, we'd work
with them to

00:38:49.770 --> 00:38:53.200
figure out like what can be
actually done in 48 hours.

00:38:53.200 --> 00:38:56.730
But we would do this one to
two times a year.

00:38:56.730 --> 00:38:57.820
And it was like a huge hit
and

00:38:57.820 --> 00:39:00.310
it was a boost to morale,
cuz what people most love.

00:39:00.310 --> 00:39:02.810
It is like working on things
where it's like, oh,

00:39:02.810 --> 00:39:04.200
I made a difference to the
app.

00:39:05.300 --> 00:39:05.700
Right?

00:39:05.700 --> 00:39:09.290
And so, for us, that's one
way that we would like

00:39:09.300 --> 00:39:11.370
sort of divide time for like
product direction.

00:39:11.370 --> 00:39:13.900
It's like some times the
people that work for

00:39:13.100 --> 00:39:14.730
you, they have a strong
opinion about where it,

00:39:14.730 --> 00:39:15.400
where it should go.

00:39:15.400 --> 00:39:17.580
And it's a good way to sort
of democratize it

00:39:17.580 --> 00:39:18.939
a little bit, by rotating it
around.

00:39:20.760 --> 00:39:21.520
Yes.

00:39:21.520 --> 00:39:23.759
>> You said you guys all
work from home.

00:39:23.760 --> 00:39:25.450
Usually seems like a
nightmare.

00:39:25.450 --> 00:39:27.509
In that office, how do you
make that work?

00:39:27.510 --> 00:39:28.510
>> Okay, so we all work from
home.

00:39:28.510 --> 00:39:29.540
So, I will tell you this.

00:39:29.540 --> 00:39:31.610
We all still work within the
Tampa Bay area.

00:39:31.610 --> 00:39:32.760
We would allow anybody to

00:39:32.760 --> 00:39:34.510
work from any where but
usually.

00:39:34.510 --> 00:39:35.904
As we tried to recruit
them,they sort of

00:39:35.904 --> 00:39:37.820
meet our team, and they just
decide,

00:39:37.820 --> 00:39:39.500
okay we just want to come
and move here anyway.

00:39:41.970 --> 00:39:46.562
Remote working, is
especially tricky,

00:39:46.563 --> 00:39:48.350
a lot of people like to
romanticize it,

00:39:48.350 --> 00:39:50.430
especially people, who are
like employees.

00:39:50.430 --> 00:39:54.109
But the thing is, An office
gives you a lot of, sort of,

00:39:54.110 --> 00:39:56.870
benefits, right, and
efficiencies that you now

00:39:56.870 --> 00:39:58.880
have to compensate for when
you remote working.

00:39:58.880 --> 00:40:00.770
But remote working also has
these other sort of

00:40:00.770 --> 00:40:02.590
efficiencies in place, for
example,

00:40:02.590 --> 00:40:04.870
I don't have to worry about
my employees losing two

00:40:04.870 --> 00:40:07.569
hours of their day to
commuting, for instance.

00:40:07.570 --> 00:40:08.980
So the biggest thing that we
had to do for

00:40:08.980 --> 00:40:11.860
remote working is to respect
people's time.

00:40:11.860 --> 00:40:14.500
And so the way we had it set
up is we actually had

00:40:14.500 --> 00:40:16.470
a four and a half day work
week at Wufoo.

00:40:16.470 --> 00:40:18.839
Half day on Friday was for
all the meetings and stuff.

00:40:18.840 --> 00:40:20.830
We said like no business
deal,

00:40:20.830 --> 00:40:22.990
meetings, no talking with
other outside parties.

00:40:22.990 --> 00:40:25.569
They all have to be done on
Friday, on that half day.

00:40:25.570 --> 00:40:27.320
It couldn't be done in the
middle of the week.

00:40:27.320 --> 00:40:29.420
And then also one day of
everyone was

00:40:29.420 --> 00:40:30.780
already dedicated customer
support.

00:40:30.780 --> 00:40:32.910
So everyone in our company
effectively only had

00:40:32.910 --> 00:40:35.170
three days each week to
actually build or

00:40:35.170 --> 00:40:36.570
work on whatever they were
doing.

00:40:36.570 --> 00:40:38.370
But I actually firmly
believe that if you

00:40:38.370 --> 00:40:41.270
have three solid days,
right, eight to ten hours,

00:40:41.270 --> 00:40:43.230
where you are only working
on what you need to build,

00:40:43.230 --> 00:40:45.350
you can get a ton of shit
done.

00:40:45.350 --> 00:40:47.600
And so what we said was,

00:40:47.600 --> 00:40:48.770
you have to respect
everyone's time during that

00:40:48.770 --> 00:40:51.130
three day period, if they're
in that three day period.

00:40:51.130 --> 00:40:53.270
And what we came up with is
a 15 minute rule and the way

00:40:53.270 --> 00:40:56.580
it worked is you can have a
discussion like a chat or

00:40:56.580 --> 00:40:59.380
a phone call or whatever
with someone but it could go

00:40:59.380 --> 00:41:01.640
no longer than 15 minutes so
if you have some complicated

00:41:01.640 --> 00:41:04.490
issue that you couldn't
figure out we'd say,

00:41:04.500 --> 00:41:07.320
at 15 minutes you are to
immediately table that item.

00:41:07.320 --> 00:41:10.500
Right and have us discuss it
on Friday and

00:41:10.500 --> 00:41:12.610
you'd move on to the next
item on your list right,

00:41:12.610 --> 00:41:13.690
the enhanced productivity.

00:41:15.500 --> 00:41:18.430
More often than not I, I
would say 90% of the time

00:41:18.430 --> 00:41:20.450
the item never got brought
up on Friday because usually

00:41:20.450 --> 00:41:22.810
what would happen is people
would sleep on it and then

00:41:22.810 --> 00:41:25.730
they'd just magically say
like, hey I found a solution

00:41:25.730 --> 00:41:27.740
or like hey that's not a big
problem whatsoever.

00:41:29.300 --> 00:41:30.760
Because most problems inside
of companies,

00:41:30.760 --> 00:41:34.290
they don't need to be solved
in real time, or right away.

00:41:34.290 --> 00:41:36.990
The only things are like
when the site is down, or

00:41:36.990 --> 00:41:38.310
payments aren't working.

00:41:38.310 --> 00:41:39.490
Right?
Everything outside of

00:41:39.490 --> 00:41:43.479
that is basically kind of
luxury, so

00:41:43.480 --> 00:41:45.520
focus on your primaries as
much as possible.

00:41:45.520 --> 00:41:46.419
And, as a result,

00:41:46.419 --> 00:41:48.444
our ten person team did far
more than many,

00:41:48.445 --> 00:41:51.150
many other companies, as a
result.

00:41:51.150 --> 00:41:55.400
But, it takes extra work to
make remote working happen.

00:41:55.400 --> 00:41:57.700
We are an extremely
disciplined sort of team.

00:41:57.700 --> 00:41:58.370
And I would have to say

00:41:59.790 --> 00:42:02.850
there's almost not many YC
companies that actually have

00:42:02.850 --> 00:42:04.299
been able to replicate sort
of what we do.

00:42:04.300 --> 00:42:06.250
I think there's only two
other companies in YC that

00:42:06.250 --> 00:42:09.600
sort of have the same sort
of discipline working style.

00:42:09.600 --> 00:42:11.560
It takes more work in a very
different fashion.

00:42:11.560 --> 00:42:12.100
Right?

00:42:12.100 --> 00:42:14.779
An office allows you to be a
little bit lazier, right,

00:42:14.780 --> 00:42:16.620
in terms of all these things
around productivity.

00:42:20.880 --> 00:42:21.880
Okay.
Over here.

00:42:21.880 --> 00:42:23.330
>> Right.

00:42:23.330 --> 00:42:26.440
Just to go off that question
as the leader of the team

00:42:26.440 --> 00:42:29.891
how did you manage to
instill a company culture

00:42:29.891 --> 00:42:30.948
but and also the count,

00:42:30.948 --> 00:42:34.180
accountability the employees
especially cuz.

00:42:34.180 --> 00:42:35.700
Working space.

00:42:35.700 --> 00:42:38.700
>> Okay, how do we, how do
we set up accountability for

00:42:38.700 --> 00:42:39.390
employees?

00:42:39.390 --> 00:42:40.230
As, as a manager.

00:42:40.230 --> 00:42:43.530
Alright, so, at Wufoo we
were profitable nine months

00:42:43.530 --> 00:42:46.920
after launch, so, we had
profit sharing, right?

00:42:46.920 --> 00:42:49.510
And so, it makes pretty
simple and clear.

00:42:49.510 --> 00:42:53.110
It, it would be a multiple
of whatever bonus pull that

00:42:53.110 --> 00:42:54.420
we sort of had, and

00:42:54.420 --> 00:42:56.720
the performance measures
would be based on sort of,

00:42:56.720 --> 00:42:58.350
how they did in customer
support.

00:42:58.350 --> 00:42:59.880
All right, on their duties
there, and sort of

00:42:59.880 --> 00:43:02.810
what they said they were
wanting to accomplish or do.

00:43:02.810 --> 00:43:04.790
I don't like process, and I
don't like lots of

00:43:04.790 --> 00:43:07.110
tools to help get people to
be productive.

00:43:07.110 --> 00:43:08.547
So the only thing that we
had for

00:43:08.547 --> 00:43:10.400
helping people manage, like,

00:43:10.400 --> 00:43:12.270
sort of their projects, is
to-do lists.

00:43:12.270 --> 00:43:13.810
And that is, like, simple
text files that we

00:43:13.810 --> 00:43:15.490
shared in our Dropbox
account.

00:43:15.490 --> 00:43:17.379
Each person had their name
on it, and you got to

00:43:17.380 --> 00:43:19.710
see every time somebody
updated their to-do list.

00:43:19.710 --> 00:43:21.600
What we said is every single
night just

00:43:21.600 --> 00:43:22.650
set everything that you did
that day.

00:43:22.650 --> 00:43:23.560
Right?
And then on Friday,

00:43:23.560 --> 00:43:24.690
we would just go over.

00:43:24.690 --> 00:43:25.770
Okay, this is what you

00:43:25.770 --> 00:43:26.970
said last week that you're
gonna do.

00:43:26.970 --> 00:43:28.240
This is what you actually
got done, or

00:43:28.240 --> 00:43:29.350
the sort of the problems at
hand.

00:43:29.350 --> 00:43:31.370
And it's super simple,
right?

00:43:31.370 --> 00:43:33.650
It creates this like nice
written trail for

00:43:33.650 --> 00:43:35.550
how to sort of handle stuff,
right?

00:43:35.550 --> 00:43:37.720
And I don't have to worry
about managing them, right?

00:43:37.720 --> 00:43:39.299
They sorta set the tone for

00:43:39.300 --> 00:43:41.610
how they want to be sort of
assessed.

00:43:41.610 --> 00:43:42.550
And it makes it really
simple.

00:43:42.550 --> 00:43:45.370
And for people who are
excellent at what they do.

00:43:45.370 --> 00:43:47.490
Right?
It works very, very well.

00:43:47.500 --> 00:43:48.900
And then when you actually
have problems,

00:43:48.900 --> 00:43:50.570
it's very easy to fire
people.

00:43:50.570 --> 00:43:51.760
I was fortunate that I

00:43:51.760 --> 00:43:54.110
never had to fire anyone at
Wufoo, right?

00:43:54.110 --> 00:43:55.490
But we were able to correct
a lot of

00:43:55.490 --> 00:43:57.529
people's behavior very, very
quickly.

00:43:57.530 --> 00:43:58.750
Cuz we just kinda look at
this, and

00:43:58.750 --> 00:44:00.160
it's like look, this is your
pattern of behavior.

00:44:00.160 --> 00:44:02.509
You finish a fraction of the
items on your list.

00:44:02.510 --> 00:44:03.900
You do most of

00:44:03.900 --> 00:44:05.810
the items at the last second
right before Friday.

00:44:05.810 --> 00:44:07.240
That's a problem, you've
gotta manage your time

00:44:07.240 --> 00:44:10.259
better and this is evidence
that you've provided to us.

00:44:10.260 --> 00:44:12.420
All we have to do is sort of
describe it back to you and

00:44:12.420 --> 00:44:14.650
because everyone in the
company sort of sees it,

00:44:14.650 --> 00:44:16.000
right, there's social
pressure that's put

00:44:16.000 --> 00:44:17.870
into place that helps make
it all sort of happen.

00:44:19.510 --> 00:44:20.810
Right here.

00:44:20.810 --> 00:44:22.930
>> How did you hire people
that, you know,

00:44:22.930 --> 00:44:25.629
you felt would be able to
work with in this kind of

00:44:25.630 --> 00:44:28.216
environment that's, that's
>> So,

00:44:28.216 --> 00:44:31.720
how do you hire people that
can work, remotely?

00:44:31.720 --> 00:44:33.990
And then sort of work in
this sort of fashion.

00:44:33.990 --> 00:44:35.879
So, pretty easily,

00:44:35.880 --> 00:44:38.170
you have them work on a side
project for you.

00:44:38.170 --> 00:44:39.330
So you contract them out,
and

00:44:39.330 --> 00:44:40.920
they have to work remotely.

00:44:40.920 --> 00:44:42.610
As such, usually, the
projects I like to

00:44:42.610 --> 00:44:45.160
have them work on is about a
month long, right?

00:44:45.160 --> 00:44:46.839
I could do things much
faster for a week.

00:44:46.840 --> 00:44:48.100
But usually get a good sense
of,

00:44:48.100 --> 00:44:49.870
like, how well people sort
of manage themselves, and

00:44:49.870 --> 00:44:51.930
work on things from a
project like that.

00:44:51.930 --> 00:44:53.750
So that was always the first
assessment.

00:44:53.750 --> 00:44:55.560
Like we never did anything
just by interviews.

00:44:56.840 --> 00:44:59.740
The other thing we had to,
sort of, screen them for

00:44:59.740 --> 00:45:01.350
is their ability to do
customer support.

00:45:01.350 --> 00:45:02.190
Because not any,

00:45:02.190 --> 00:45:05.980
every engineer sort of has
the empathy skills to

00:45:05.980 --> 00:45:08.130
handle that stress.

00:45:08.130 --> 00:45:12.100
So sometimes I would have
people write breakup letters

00:45:12.100 --> 00:45:14.440
to me, right, in an
interview, just like hey,

00:45:14.440 --> 00:45:17.310
pretend you have to break up
with me you have 15 minutes

00:45:17.310 --> 00:45:19.320
to write in on there and you
can only write it by hand,

00:45:19.320 --> 00:45:21.600
what are you gonna say?

00:45:21.600 --> 00:45:23.740
And so you get a good sense
of sort of their writing

00:45:23.740 --> 00:45:25.669
skills, because like 90% of
what you do in customer

00:45:25.670 --> 00:45:27.940
support is tell them bad
news, like, oh, we don't

00:45:27.940 --> 00:45:30.710
support that feature, sorry
that's not gonna work, or.

00:45:30.710 --> 00:45:32.700
It's not gonna be available.

00:45:32.700 --> 00:45:33.985
And so people have to have
sort of tacked at that.

00:45:33.985 --> 00:45:36.300
>> How 'bout one more
question?

00:45:36.300 --> 00:45:38.650
>> One question, right here
the glasses.

00:45:38.650 --> 00:45:40.430
>> So, since Wiki has all
these like tricks and

00:45:40.430 --> 00:45:42.529
experiments that have really
helped the company.

00:45:42.530 --> 00:45:44.950
Do you INAUDIBLE] of ones
that didn't work out?

00:45:44.950 --> 00:45:46.120
>> Have all these tricks and

00:45:46.120 --> 00:45:47.240
experiments to help the
company,

00:45:47.240 --> 00:45:49.359
are there any ones that
didn't work out?

00:45:50.470 --> 00:45:51.520
All right, I'll talk about
one.

00:45:51.520 --> 00:45:54.770
So one of the things that we
did early on to try to

00:45:54.770 --> 00:45:56.940
motivate ourselves was try
to get,

00:45:58.530 --> 00:46:01.300
like we understood this idea
of like crunch mode and

00:46:01.300 --> 00:46:02.820
that it's really bad for
people.

00:46:02.820 --> 00:46:04.370
Like if you're doing the
subscription business you

00:46:04.370 --> 00:46:06.230
need people to last for the
long term, and

00:46:06.230 --> 00:46:08.400
video games a lot of times
they like crunch people.

00:46:08.400 --> 00:46:09.660
All, all the time.

00:46:09.660 --> 00:46:10.859
For like a specific deadline
or

00:46:10.860 --> 00:46:12.610
have multiple sprints every
two weeks and

00:46:12.610 --> 00:46:13.930
you have to shoot up to this
deadline and

00:46:13.930 --> 00:46:15.290
it's like exhausting.

00:46:15.290 --> 00:46:17.900
And so, because, when it's
happening it's like you

00:46:17.900 --> 00:46:18.560
might get an increase in
productivity but

00:46:18.560 --> 00:46:20.299
the recovery period that you
need for people is

00:46:20.300 --> 00:46:23.770
always greater, right, than
the productivity you gain.

00:46:23.770 --> 00:46:24.630
And at a company where you

00:46:24.630 --> 00:46:25.810
need everyone doing customer
support and

00:46:25.810 --> 00:46:27.420
being on their game and
constantly put, pushed out

00:46:27.420 --> 00:46:29.910
features you don't have time
for recovery.

00:46:29.910 --> 00:46:33.490
So, we were thinking about,
okay, we want to build like,

00:46:33.490 --> 00:46:36.740
a company vacation into how
Wufoo sort of works to

00:46:36.740 --> 00:46:38.299
reward our users every
single year.

00:46:38.300 --> 00:46:38.830
And we said okay,

00:46:38.830 --> 00:46:40.330
if the vacation is sort of
built in there for

00:46:40.330 --> 00:46:43.290
the recovery, we could have
one crunch period, right,

00:46:43.300 --> 00:46:44.300
before that vacation set up.

00:46:44.300 --> 00:46:46.470
And we'll just only do
customer support that will

00:46:46.470 --> 00:46:48.430
just sort of scale with
people.

00:46:48.430 --> 00:46:49.259
So.

00:46:49.260 --> 00:46:55.700
The way we did the very
first crunch mode

00:46:55.700 --> 00:46:57.380
is that it was just between
the three founders.

00:46:57.380 --> 00:47:00.900
And we had each of us draw a
ten-item to-do list.

00:47:00.900 --> 00:47:02.140
That would be fairly
aggressive.

00:47:02.140 --> 00:47:02.890
And the first person to

00:47:02.890 --> 00:47:05.640
get through seven of their
items would win.

00:47:05.640 --> 00:47:07.290
And the the last person to

00:47:07.300 --> 00:47:08.630
get through seven of their
items.

00:47:08.630 --> 00:47:10.950
Would become what we called
trippage.

00:47:10.950 --> 00:47:13.180
And trippage meant that you
carried other

00:47:13.180 --> 00:47:15.629
person's luggage and got
people drinks when you're on

00:47:15.630 --> 00:47:16.500
the company vacation.

00:47:17.560 --> 00:47:21.540
So we did that and during
that period,

00:47:21.540 --> 00:47:23.140
everyone was like pretty
excited about it and

00:47:23.140 --> 00:47:24.850
motivated, and only the
winner got to

00:47:24.850 --> 00:47:27.640
choose the next company
vacation the following year.

00:47:27.640 --> 00:47:31.240
And then all the sudden Ryan
had basically poorly

00:47:31.240 --> 00:47:33.490
estimated the items on his
list.

00:47:33.500 --> 00:47:36.400
And he realized very quickly
I'm going to fucking lose.

00:47:36.400 --> 00:47:38.950
And so he was just like I
give up.

00:47:38.950 --> 00:47:40.250
And he just sort of stopped.

00:47:40.250 --> 00:47:42.410
So crunch mode turned out to
be blah mode for

00:47:42.410 --> 00:47:44.339
him because he knew he was
gonna lose and

00:47:44.340 --> 00:47:46.300
became pretty demoralized.

00:47:46.300 --> 00:47:47.380
So as a result of doing
that, we

00:47:47.380 --> 00:47:50.130
decided not to do it in that
similar fashion anymore.

00:47:50.130 --> 00:47:52.610
So, good idea that we like
to talk about.

00:47:52.610 --> 00:47:53.980
But is one that we, we never
did again.

00:47:55.120 --> 00:47:55.750
All right, guys.

00:47:55.750 --> 00:47:56.930
Thanks a lot.

00:47:56.930 --> 00:47:58.928
You can email me at kevin@