1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:13,628 English subtitles 2 00:00:13,628 --> 00:00:27,256 Good morning. We officially start the press conference of DiEM Democracy in Europe Movement. 3 00:00:27,711 --> 00:00:31,443 This is Yanis Varoufakis as you probably know. My name is Srecko Horvat. 4 00:00:31,735 --> 00:00:40,008 We are only one of the representatives of many people, who already joined the movement and today during the day you will see what it is about. 5 00:00:40,916 --> 00:00:47,244 And we have half an hour for the press conference and later we must continue with our strategical meetings. 6 00:00:47,907 --> 00:01:03,264 So, just a short introduction: In 1969 Theodor Adorno gave an interview for Der Spiegel. And the journalist asked the question "Herr Professor, two months ago world still seemed in order." 7 00:01:03,758 --> 00:01:06,815 And you know, what Adorno answered? 8 00:01:07,237 --> 00:01:09,367 "Not to me!" 9 00:01:10,075 --> 00:01:16,901 And I think it's the same: Maybe to some people the European Union seems to be fine. But for us, and especially from Yanis' experience 10 00:01:17,024 --> 00:01:21,198 as the Greek finance minister, it didn't seem 'in Ordnung zu sein.' 11 00:01:21,420 --> 00:01:42,458 Last year the German society for language announced that the three most popular words of the last year were on the first place Refugees, on the second place je suis Charlie and on the third place "Grexit." 12 00:01:42,764 --> 00:01:51,630 On the tenth place it was "Wir können es schaffen" I think which is Merkel's quote regarding the refugee crisis. 13 00:01:51,762 --> 00:01:55,130 What we want to do is actually to put "Wir können es schaffen" on the first place. 14 00:01:55,286 --> 00:02:01,372 And that is the reason why we are founding together with other comrades from all around Europe the Democracy in Europe Movement. 15 00:02:01,992 --> 00:02:07,625 But I will give you the word now and then we answer questions. I think it's better for the press conference. 16 00:02:08,079 --> 00:02:11,508 Well, let me welcome you to this press conference. Thank you so much for coming. 17 00:02:11,741 --> 00:02:18,709 It's a great honour, a privilege, to be in the heart of Europe, in Berlin. 18 00:02:18,858 --> 00:02:26,625 We've chosen Berlin, precisely because nothing can change in the progressive direction without 19 00:02:27,119 --> 00:02:32,133 the full participation of Germany in our European endeavors. 20 00:02:33,286 --> 00:02:40,786 Unfortunately it is the conviction of some of us, those of us, who are putting DiEM together, 21 00:02:40,786 --> 00:02:46,220 that the European Union is disintegrating and it is doing so quite fast! 22 00:02:46,737 --> 00:02:49,609 Whether you're talking about the Euro-crisis, 23 00:02:49,934 --> 00:02:57,481 the failure, the spectacular failure of the European Union, both as a Union and 24 00:02:57,941 --> 00:03:01,992 also as it's constituent members to dealing with the refugee crisis 25 00:03:02,182 --> 00:03:03,875 in a sensible, rational, humanist way 26 00:03:04,024 --> 00:03:07,672 With a possible exception of Angela Merkel, who's been very good at this. 27 00:03:08,306 --> 00:03:16,099 The phenomenon of the re-nationalization of ambition 28 00:03:16,632 --> 00:03:19,670 The nationalization of hope 29 00:03:20,009 --> 00:03:24,722 The fact, that we now have European gouvernments 30 00:03:25,005 --> 00:03:29,110 adopting fully the "Not in my backyard"-mentality 31 00:03:29,538 --> 00:03:32,424 Whether this is about debt , about refugees 32 00:03:32,589 --> 00:03:37,322 about Schengen, about geopolitics, about our attitude to 33 00:03:37,534 --> 00:03:38,950 the Middle East, to Lybia, 34 00:03:39,460 --> 00:03:43,276 You only have to put together the words "European" 35 00:03:43,336 --> 00:03:45,736 "foreign" and "policy" to end up with a joke. 36 00:03:46,286 --> 00:03:49,499 Or the worse: "European," "Migration" and "policy" 37 00:03:49,548 --> 00:03:50,827 to end up, with a joke. 38 00:03:53,301 --> 00:03:56,455 Why is Europe disintegrating? 39 00:03:56,735 --> 00:04:00,411 The wrong in the thought of it, is that we have allowed 40 00:04:00,674 --> 00:04:04,934 for the last decade - two decades - possibly three 41 00:04:04,989 --> 00:04:09,243 decades, a process of de-politicizing decision-making 42 00:04:09,346 --> 00:04:12,467 at the heart of Europe, in our core-European institutions. 43 00:04:13,209 --> 00:04:16,656 And when you de-politicize a political decision process 44 00:04:16,947 --> 00:04:19,651 you end up with very bad politics and sub-stand-up 45 00:04:19,668 --> 00:04:22,382 economic politics. And now we have 46 00:04:22,424 --> 00:04:25,133 - this is at least our estimation - a vicious cycle. 47 00:04:25,269 --> 00:04:29,418 Bad policy leads to bad economic outcomes like 48 00:04:29,687 --> 00:04:33,130 negative interest rates, facing pension funds in Germany 49 00:04:33,130 --> 00:04:37,383 or deflation in Spain. These bad economic outcomes 50 00:04:37,667 --> 00:04:43,154 give the bureaucratic-technocratic decision making process 51 00:04:43,154 --> 00:04:46,855 more of an incentive, to turn to further degrees of 52 00:04:47,105 --> 00:04:50,928 authoritarianism. The extra-degrees of authoritarianism 53 00:04:50,995 --> 00:04:55,505 lead to more entrenchment in the bad policy framework. 54 00:04:55,790 --> 00:04:57,376 Which leads to further bad outcomes 55 00:04:57,977 --> 00:05:01,528 and we are in a kind of early 1930's 56 00:05:01,794 --> 00:05:05,400 framework of disintegration. 57 00:05:06,354 --> 00:05:09,620 The art to this mix, an extraordinary shock like the refugees 58 00:05:09,793 --> 00:05:12,976 and you end up with a situation we're facing in Europe today 59 00:05:13,179 --> 00:05:16,779 so we ask ourselves a very simple question: 60 00:05:16,997 --> 00:05:21,858 If our analysis is right, if the European Union is disintegrating 61 00:05:22,131 --> 00:05:24,354 because of its terrible gouvernance and architecture 62 00:05:24,617 --> 00:05:26,216 what is the solution? 63 00:05:26,274 --> 00:05:27,974 Well, we know what is not the solution: 64 00:05:28,745 --> 00:05:31,021 The solution is not to return to the nation-state. 65 00:05:31,252 --> 00:05:33,067 The solution is not to build walls, again. 66 00:05:33,271 --> 00:05:37,456 The solution is not "Fortress Germany," "Fortress France" 67 00:05:37,656 --> 00:05:41,540 "Fortress Greece" Fortress, fortresses everywhere 68 00:05:42,144 --> 00:05:45,644 Those walls simply reflect our security-love failures. 69 00:05:46,212 --> 00:05:47,333 That's not the solution. 70 00:05:48,199 --> 00:05:51,294 It is also not the solution - ostrich-like - to burry 71 00:05:51,521 --> 00:05:53,788 heads in the sand to pretend that we are 72 00:05:53,827 --> 00:05:55,645 on the right path and we only need to tweak our 73 00:05:55,683 --> 00:05:58,487 policies a little bit. So, if these are not the solutions, 74 00:05:58,620 --> 00:05:59,911 what are the solutions? 75 00:06:00,133 --> 00:06:06,863 Well, our answer to this poignant question is a search 76 00:06:07,115 --> 00:06:10,005 for democratizing the European Union institutions 77 00:06:10,665 --> 00:06:15,015 to achieve two things: Firstly to recalibrate 78 00:06:15,177 --> 00:06:19,294 existing institutions and policies. In order to stabilize 79 00:06:19,363 --> 00:06:23,699 the five crisis that are disintegrating Europe: Debt, banking, 80 00:06:24,150 --> 00:06:27,780 low investment everywhere, including in Germany, 81 00:06:28,045 --> 00:06:32,135 rising poverty, which fuels misanthropy and other nationalism 82 00:06:32,162 --> 00:06:33,852 and migration. 83 00:06:35,218 --> 00:06:36,868 And to do this, in a way 84 00:06:37,121 --> 00:06:39,848 that re-legitimizes political power 85 00:06:39,848 --> 00:06:42,179 and re-politicizes politics in Europe. 86 00:06:43,149 --> 00:06:44,279 How can this happen? 87 00:06:44,693 --> 00:06:46,703 The old-fashioned system 88 00:06:46,995 --> 00:06:48,845 of creating a political party 89 00:06:49,032 --> 00:06:50,182 in the context of a nation-state, 90 00:06:50,236 --> 00:06:51,896 making promises that you cannot fulfill 91 00:06:51,953 --> 00:06:52,963 once you are in power 92 00:06:52,978 --> 00:06:55,168 if you ever gain gouvernment 93 00:06:55,550 --> 00:06:57,130 That system is finished. 94 00:06:58,651 --> 00:07:01,601 I have watched mighty finance ministers including 95 00:07:01,646 --> 00:07:03,856 this country's 96 00:07:04,181 --> 00:07:06,571 being reduced to a state of helplessness 97 00:07:06,615 --> 00:07:08,603 in the context of European Union Council 98 00:07:08,603 --> 00:07:09,903 in the context of the EURO-group 99 00:07:10,847 --> 00:07:12,467 So, if we are right, 100 00:07:12,774 --> 00:07:14,434 that another political party 101 00:07:14,867 --> 00:07:16,667 another organization in the context of the 102 00:07:16,730 --> 00:07:18,830 nation-states is the wrong way to go, 103 00:07:19,494 --> 00:07:20,801 What is the only alternative? 104 00:07:20,801 --> 00:07:22,341 The only alternative is to try 105 00:07:22,446 --> 00:07:24,056 something you've never tried before. 106 00:07:24,503 --> 00:07:25,813 A political movement 107 00:07:26,019 --> 00:07:27,489 that starts everywhere in Europe 108 00:07:27,618 --> 00:07:29,358 at once, cross-border 109 00:07:30,134 --> 00:07:33,474 independently of prior political party-affiliations 110 00:07:35,174 --> 00:07:37,534 that has one simple objective: 111 00:07:37,979 --> 00:07:40,469 To get Europeans around a metaphorical table 112 00:07:41,057 --> 00:07:43,727 digital table; in forms like this one 113 00:07:43,864 --> 00:07:46,134 tonight. To discuss as Europeans 114 00:07:46,222 --> 00:07:47,412 their common problems 115 00:07:47,478 --> 00:07:49,123 and what we want are common solutions 116 00:07:49,123 --> 00:07:51,033 to these common problems to be. 117 00:07:51,285 --> 00:07:53,275 The hope is that, if the consensus emerges 118 00:07:53,366 --> 00:07:54,826 and our consensus will find ways of 119 00:07:54,923 --> 00:07:56,463 expressing itself on the level of 120 00:07:56,614 --> 00:07:58,704 the municipality, of the origin, of the state, 121 00:07:58,811 --> 00:08:02,131 of the European Union, 122 00:08:02,679 --> 00:08:04,309 We are very much looking forward 123 00:08:04,502 --> 00:08:05,694 to answering your many and 124 00:08:05,744 --> 00:08:08,864 pressing questions! 125 00:08:10,213 --> 00:08:12,383 So, let's start with a question here. 126 00:08:16,137 --> 00:08:18,897 Q: "President Erdogan of Turkey has today 127 00:08:19,029 --> 00:08:21,099 it seems threatened Europe saying that 128 00:08:21,099 --> 00:08:25,061 if Turkey doesn't receive financing 129 00:08:25,061 --> 00:08:28,271 he will send masses of refugees 130 00:08:28,410 --> 00:08:29,450 towards the EU. 131 00:08:29,688 --> 00:08:32,135 How do these type of threats challenge 132 00:08:32,135 --> 00:08:34,295 the aims that you're putting forward? 133 00:08:36,624 --> 00:08:38,914 A: These threats, the clear and present 134 00:08:39,311 --> 00:08:40,541 dangers that we're facing 135 00:08:40,558 --> 00:08:41,848 enhance the point. 136 00:08:42,459 --> 00:08:45,169 It is about time, that we decided to 137 00:08:45,913 --> 00:08:47,470 treat the problem as a common one. 138 00:08:47,470 --> 00:08:49,340 Not as a Greek problem. 139 00:08:49,372 --> 00:08:51,982 Not as a problem to be sorted out by 140 00:08:52,414 --> 00:08:54,434 turning Greece or Italy or Sicily 141 00:08:54,667 --> 00:08:56,747 into a concentration camp. 142 00:08:56,962 --> 00:09:00,822 But as the common problem of a large 143 00:09:01,075 --> 00:09:04,215 Union, a powerful Union, a rich Union 144 00:09:04,596 --> 00:09:07,416 which has failed spectacularly over the 145 00:09:07,705 --> 00:09:10,353 last weeks, last months, and years 146 00:09:10,353 --> 00:09:12,213 to deal with common problems, 147 00:09:12,244 --> 00:09:13,744 systemic problems - systematically. 148 00:09:14,037 --> 00:09:16,697 So the whole raison d'etre of what 149 00:09:16,772 --> 00:09:20,972 we're doing is to be able to look Mister 150 00:09:21,146 --> 00:09:23,456 Adorno in the eye, as Europeans 151 00:09:23,540 --> 00:09:25,260 with a coherent policy 152 00:09:25,367 --> 00:09:28,617 which is consistent also with coherent 153 00:09:28,666 --> 00:09:30,636 policies in the realm of solidarity 154 00:09:30,776 --> 00:09:32,636 within Europe 155 00:09:32,774 --> 00:09:34,644 Economic stabilization 156 00:09:34,812 --> 00:09:38,742 and an end to the race to the bottom 157 00:09:39,255 --> 00:09:42,065 which is forcing Europe into the bossom 158 00:09:42,340 --> 00:09:44,190 of disintegration. 159 00:09:44,239 --> 00:09:46,602 Q: It does not help if you are playing 160 00:09:46,602 --> 00:09:47,882 brinkmanship with these types of states 161 00:09:47,882 --> 00:09:50,208 does it, when you're trying to deal as 162 00:09:50,228 --> 00:09:52,928 a Europe, but your partners outside 163 00:09:52,928 --> 00:09:54,871 of Europe are willing to hold this gun 164 00:09:54,871 --> 00:09:56,501 to your head. 165 00:09:56,563 --> 00:09:58,543 A: Well, unity's strength! 166 00:09:58,589 --> 00:10:03,129 When a gun is being held to our head, 167 00:10:03,129 --> 00:10:05,168 the last thing we need is a situation 168 00:10:05,168 --> 00:10:06,884 where Berlin turn against Athens 169 00:10:06,884 --> 00:10:08,806 Athens turns against Paris 170 00:10:08,806 --> 00:10:10,746 Paris turns against Bratislava.. 171 00:10:12,430 --> 00:10:15,710 The next question, please 172 00:10:15,712 --> 00:10:16,732 The man behind, here. 173 00:10:16,732 --> 00:10:18,370 Q: You said you wanted to start a movement 174 00:10:18,370 --> 00:10:19,040 in all European countries at once 175 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:21,910 What makes you believe that you can 176 00:10:21,977 --> 00:10:24,267 achieve, what all social movements, 177 00:10:24,272 --> 00:10:26,712 protest movements or ATTAC for example 178 00:10:26,729 --> 00:10:28,386 has not achieved so far 179 00:10:28,386 --> 00:10:29,236 and have bitterly failed? 180 00:10:30,305 --> 00:10:31,635 A: Absolutely nothing. 181 00:10:32,249 --> 00:10:34,442 But it's the only way I can wake up in 182 00:10:34,442 --> 00:10:36,232 the morning and be energized 183 00:10:36,244 --> 00:10:39,447 to that, what I think, is right. 184 00:10:39,447 --> 00:10:43,463 Look, Harald: 2015 was a pivotal year. 185 00:10:43,463 --> 00:10:47,813 It was a year, when we failed 186 00:10:47,822 --> 00:10:52,772 as Europe - quite substantially to deal 187 00:10:52,775 --> 00:10:57,365 with an economic policy, which condemned 188 00:10:57,599 --> 00:11:01,937 large parts of the periphery to 189 00:11:01,937 --> 00:11:03,657 permanent depression. 190 00:11:03,701 --> 00:11:04,661 Permanent depression! 191 00:11:04,671 --> 00:11:07,301 While at the very same time condemning 192 00:11:07,349 --> 00:11:09,603 surplus economies, core-economies like 193 00:11:09,603 --> 00:11:11,768 Germany, like Netherlands, and so on 194 00:11:11,768 --> 00:11:16,078 to a slow burning deflationary process 195 00:11:16,716 --> 00:11:20,106 which is undermining confidence in 196 00:11:20,202 --> 00:11:23,422 the core-countries regarding the capacity 197 00:11:23,448 --> 00:11:25,782 of the European Union and gouvernments 198 00:11:25,782 --> 00:11:27,720 in Berlin, in The Netherlands, and so on 199 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:30,220 to deal with the situation. 200 00:11:30,255 --> 00:11:32,739 For the very first time - just let me 201 00:11:32,739 --> 00:11:35,889 say one thing - for the very first time 202 00:11:35,967 --> 00:11:39,257 there is a possibility of a coalition 203 00:11:39,414 --> 00:11:40,460 of democrats. 204 00:11:40,460 --> 00:11:42,450 Whether they are liberal democrats, 205 00:11:42,450 --> 00:11:44,918 social democrats, radical democrats, 206 00:11:44,918 --> 00:11:47,077 green democrats. 207 00:11:47,077 --> 00:11:50,587 2015 has pointed out to many people 208 00:11:50,646 --> 00:11:53,216 that our system of gouvernance in Europe 209 00:11:53,216 --> 00:11:54,726 is not consistent 210 00:11:54,726 --> 00:11:56,868 with shared prosperity. 211 00:11:56,868 --> 00:11:59,199 Now, maybe what we are doing is going 212 00:11:59,199 --> 00:12:01,710 to allow this coalition to come into 213 00:12:01,710 --> 00:12:04,370 being. Something that previous movements 214 00:12:04,492 --> 00:12:06,455 have not succeeded in doing. Remember 215 00:12:06,455 --> 00:12:08,849 that defenders of capitalism, of free 216 00:12:08,849 --> 00:12:13,528 market, propose, put forward a view 217 00:12:13,528 --> 00:12:18,270 that the reason that capitalism is dynamic, is because 218 00:12:18,270 --> 00:12:20,439 it's a trial and error-process 219 00:12:20,439 --> 00:12:23,703 where the market determines out of many 220 00:12:23,703 --> 00:12:26,976 failures what the success-score is. 221 00:12:26,976 --> 00:12:28,604 Well, maybe we need to try out many different 222 00:12:28,604 --> 00:12:30,810 movements in order to come to the 223 00:12:30,810 --> 00:12:33,174 one, that allows Europe to integrate 224 00:12:33,194 --> 00:12:34,864 as opposed to disintegrate. 225 00:12:34,864 --> 00:12:36,691 Maybe this movement will also be 226 00:12:36,691 --> 00:12:39,569 failure as you say, but we have to keep 227 00:12:39,569 --> 00:12:42,579 trying until the evolutionary process 228 00:12:42,590 --> 00:12:46,281 the historical process in Europe 229 00:12:46,281 --> 00:12:48,475 is put into the direction, onto the 230 00:12:48,475 --> 00:12:49,955 pathway towards integration 231 00:12:49,955 --> 00:12:54,058 And in a mode, that arrests the current 232 00:12:54,058 --> 00:12:55,418 deconstruction. 233 00:12:55,550 --> 00:12:57,632 OK - we take one more question from 234 00:12:57,632 --> 00:13:00,292 the right. And the we turn to the left. 235 00:13:02,235 --> 00:13:04,337 Q: I want to ask you about media- 236 00:13:04,337 --> 00:13:06,875 terminology and Orwellianism 237 00:13:06,875 --> 00:13:08,235 Corporate media here in Germany 238 00:13:08,235 --> 00:13:10,797 and in the US uses terms like 239 00:13:10,797 --> 00:13:12,627 structural adjustments, 240 00:13:12,627 --> 00:13:14,493 labour market flexibility, 241 00:13:14,493 --> 00:13:15,814 rescue packages, 242 00:13:15,814 --> 00:13:18,013 as if the whole nation was rescued, 243 00:13:18,013 --> 00:13:20,264 Savings program, Noam Chomsky says 244 00:13:20,264 --> 00:13:22,185 liberal market flexibility is another 245 00:13:22,185 --> 00:13:24,105 term for a person not knowing if 246 00:13:24,245 --> 00:13:26,085 he wakes up tomorrow with a job. 247 00:13:26,145 --> 00:13:28,343 So, I want to ask you if your movement 248 00:13:28,343 --> 00:13:30,663 will take these terminologies and change 249 00:13:30,751 --> 00:13:33,282 them around to provide a more accurate picture 250 00:13:33,282 --> 00:13:35,136 to what's happening on ground. 251 00:13:35,136 --> 00:13:37,817 A: Well, we should all, every single one of 252 00:13:37,817 --> 00:13:40,772 us, beware Orwellian Doublespeak. 253 00:13:40,772 --> 00:13:44,822 And the way which language is twisted 254 00:13:44,878 --> 00:13:49,363 in order to hide what's underlaying 255 00:13:49,363 --> 00:13:52,637 particular sentences and policies. 256 00:13:52,637 --> 00:13:56,157 And effectively to throw rays of light 257 00:13:56,157 --> 00:13:57,604 and transparency and what people 258 00:13:57,604 --> 00:14:00,989 actually mean. Would it not be good, 259 00:14:00,989 --> 00:14:03,103 if our language was useful in the 260 00:14:03,103 --> 00:14:05,855 content of a dialog, so what we meant 261 00:14:05,855 --> 00:14:07,165 was conveyed to our interlocutors. 262 00:14:07,757 --> 00:14:11,857 My favourite one is an example of 263 00:14:12,964 --> 00:14:15,157 such Doublespeak. During our 264 00:14:15,157 --> 00:14:16,171 negotiations with The Troika, 265 00:14:16,171 --> 00:14:20,118 the term they used for reducing pensions 266 00:14:20,118 --> 00:14:24,718 "Intergenerational restoration of justice" 267 00:14:24,771 --> 00:14:28,821 Yes, please. 268 00:14:33,132 --> 00:14:35,455 Q: ..."Radical Lefts?" 269 00:14:35,455 --> 00:14:40,744 A: If you read our manifesto - hm - 270 00:14:40,744 --> 00:14:44,872 it is quite clear, that it's a manifesto 271 00:14:44,872 --> 00:14:47,204 for the democratization of Europe and 272 00:14:47,204 --> 00:14:50,040 it is an open call to all democrats 273 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:53,289 independently of ideologies, 274 00:14:53,289 --> 00:14:55,472 conceptions of the good society 275 00:14:55,472 --> 00:14:57,525 political party-affiliation. Now, I 276 00:14:57,525 --> 00:14:59,635 of course, like you, like all of us 277 00:14:59,635 --> 00:15:02,280 we have our particular prejudices 278 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:05,318 our particular ideological take. 279 00:15:05,318 --> 00:15:08,288 But DiEM is not me, not Srecko, 280 00:15:08,288 --> 00:15:11,082 it's not any of the people who will be 281 00:15:11,082 --> 00:15:13,420 at the Volksbühne tonight. 282 00:15:13,420 --> 00:15:15,459 It's all of us together and it is 283 00:15:15,459 --> 00:15:19,660 it's manifest. 284 00:15:19,660 --> 00:15:22,101 It's as good as the word of the manifesto 285 00:15:22,101 --> 00:15:24,921 that it seeks to embrace every one 286 00:15:24,921 --> 00:15:27,636 who cares about re-democratizing 287 00:15:27,636 --> 00:15:29,740 putting the demos back into democracy 288 00:15:29,740 --> 00:15:32,781 in Europe. 289 00:15:32,781 --> 00:15:33,601 Q: Do you really think that Center-left / center-right can be with? 290 00:15:33,601 --> 00:15:36,969 A: This is, what we want. You see, 291 00:15:36,969 --> 00:15:42,079 Some of my greatest political friends 292 00:15:42,099 --> 00:15:46,589 associates, if you want "collaborators" 293 00:15:47,721 --> 00:15:50,748 are people who'd be described in Britain 294 00:15:50,748 --> 00:15:53,437 as Thatcher-Rights, as new-liberals. 295 00:15:53,437 --> 00:15:56,766 People, who are incensed by the 296 00:15:56,766 --> 00:15:58,652 vacuum of democracy, the lack of 297 00:15:58,652 --> 00:16:00,627 democracy in Brussels, in Frankfurt 298 00:16:00,627 --> 00:16:01,935 in the institutions of Europe 299 00:16:01,935 --> 00:16:04,833 which are doing such a bad job at managing 300 00:16:04,833 --> 00:16:06,865 Europe. If I can be friends with these 301 00:16:06,865 --> 00:16:08,340 people, I think it is perfectly possible 302 00:16:08,340 --> 00:16:11,585 for DiEM to embrace every one 303 00:16:11,585 --> 00:16:16,185 who simply agrees on the necessity 304 00:16:16,975 --> 00:16:20,967 of re-politicizing politics in order 305 00:16:20,967 --> 00:16:23,381 to arrest the economic crisis 306 00:16:23,381 --> 00:16:27,248 and the crisis of excessive authoritarianism 307 00:16:27,248 --> 00:16:29,301 in this democracy-free zone, which is 308 00:16:29,301 --> 00:16:33,151 Brussels and Frankfurt. 309 00:16:44,192 --> 00:16:46,688 Q: Re-democratization also means to 310 00:16:46,688 --> 00:16:48,732 defend the constitutions of the 311 00:16:48,732 --> 00:16:51,210 member-states? 312 00:16:51,210 --> 00:16:54,321 A: The problem with... Of course! 313 00:16:54,321 --> 00:16:56,515 We are constitutionalist-democrats. 314 00:16:56,515 --> 00:16:58,712 But let me say this to you Sir: 315 00:16:58,712 --> 00:17:02,492 The moment, we created a common currency, 316 00:17:02,492 --> 00:17:04,558 we transferred sovereignty 317 00:17:04,558 --> 00:17:08,014 from our nation-states into a black hole. 318 00:17:08,014 --> 00:17:09,728 We didn't create a federation, 319 00:17:09,728 --> 00:17:11,943 if we had created a federal gouvernment 320 00:17:11,943 --> 00:17:14,316 we had transferred our sovereignty 321 00:17:14,316 --> 00:17:17,047 from the nation-state to the federal state. 322 00:17:17,047 --> 00:17:19,007 And we would need a constitution 323 00:17:19,007 --> 00:17:21,337 to do that, that will be over-arching 324 00:17:21,337 --> 00:17:23,235 and towering above the constitutions 325 00:17:23,235 --> 00:17:24,585 of our nation-states. We didn't do that. 326 00:17:24,585 --> 00:17:27,586 So, now there's no sovereignty. 327 00:17:27,586 --> 00:17:29,385 Now there is just opacity, there is 328 00:17:29,385 --> 00:17:33,823 authoritarianism, there are officials 329 00:17:33,823 --> 00:17:37,706 that you or maybe you know who they are and 330 00:17:37,706 --> 00:17:39,373 what they are called, but the crashing 331 00:17:39,373 --> 00:17:41,674 majority of Europeans have never even 332 00:17:41,674 --> 00:17:43,171 seen their face or heard their names 333 00:17:43,171 --> 00:17:45,000 who make the important - crucial - 334 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:46,821 decisions, behind their backs 335 00:17:46,821 --> 00:17:48,678 And the problem is 336 00:17:48,678 --> 00:17:50,319 that the vast majority of Europeans, 337 00:17:50,319 --> 00:17:53,989 whether they agree with me or not, 338 00:17:53,989 --> 00:17:57,290 feel that there is this lack of legitimacy 339 00:17:57,290 --> 00:17:59,162 that problem with this is, that in the 340 00:17:59,162 --> 00:18:01,689 context of an deflationary spiral 341 00:18:01,689 --> 00:18:04,017 with refugee crisis that are not being 342 00:18:04,017 --> 00:18:05,922 dealt with collectively 343 00:18:05,922 --> 00:18:08,090 there is a very serious danger 344 00:18:08,090 --> 00:18:09,902 that this discontent 345 00:18:09,902 --> 00:18:11,042 for the lack of legitimacy 346 00:18:11,042 --> 00:18:13,305 and the disrespect to the constitutions 347 00:18:13,305 --> 00:18:15,665 without having an over-arching federal 348 00:18:15,665 --> 00:18:18,361 constitution, leads to 349 00:18:18,361 --> 00:18:22,195 disintegration, to nationalism, to an 350 00:18:22,195 --> 00:18:24,266 attempt to recoil back into the 351 00:18:24,266 --> 00:18:26,740 nation state. In other words 352 00:18:26,740 --> 00:18:27,700 to put it very so simply 353 00:18:27,790 --> 00:18:30,580 A postmodern version of the 1930's 354 00:18:30,580 --> 00:18:32,108 Democrats must stop this. 355 00:18:32,108 --> 00:18:35,000 We must give the average people out there 356 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:36,600 especially those who would never want to hear 357 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:39,027 anything from me, or people like me, 358 00:18:39,027 --> 00:18:41,219 we must give them hope 359 00:18:41,219 --> 00:18:43,847 that Europe can rise up to the occasion 360 00:18:43,847 --> 00:18:46,099 of reclaiming constitutional democratic 361 00:18:46,099 --> 00:18:48,719 processes in a way that is consistent 362 00:18:48,719 --> 00:18:53,649 with their anxieties and aspirations 363 00:18:59,027 --> 00:19:04,207 Q: I still wonder why we need your movement, this new movement? As we have other political leftwing parties who fight for democracy, who fight for more integration. 364 00:19:11,533 --> 00:19:14,859 A: I hope, you know, it would be a dream 365 00:19:14,859 --> 00:19:18,424 for me, not to have to do this. 366 00:19:18,424 --> 00:19:21,114 It would be great, if existing movements 367 00:19:21,114 --> 00:19:21,867 could have done the job! 368 00:19:21,867 --> 00:19:23,293 But I don't feel they can and 369 00:19:23,293 --> 00:19:25,315 I don't believe a left-wing movement can 370 00:19:25,315 --> 00:19:27,395 do it. Look, I'm a left-winger, I make no bones 371 00:19:28,699 --> 00:19:32,183 about that, I think that you all know this, 372 00:19:32,183 --> 00:19:35,234 but I have to be brutally honest: 373 00:19:35,234 --> 00:19:37,908 The Left suffered a major defeat in the 374 00:19:37,908 --> 00:19:41,764 late 1980's, early 1990's. We carry a 375 00:19:41,764 --> 00:19:46,045 major burden of guilt. For all the crimes 376 00:19:46,045 --> 00:19:49,912 that we carried out as leftists, 377 00:19:49,912 --> 00:19:53,006 Not as individuals - the collective 378 00:19:53,006 --> 00:19:54,250 guilt of the left. 379 00:19:54,250 --> 00:19:56,926 Over the 20th Century. 380 00:19:56,926 --> 00:19:59,999 The Left has not succeeded 381 00:19:59,999 --> 00:20:03,939 since 1991 and especially after 2008 the 382 00:20:03,957 --> 00:20:05,909 major, the great financial crisis 383 00:20:05,909 --> 00:20:09,349 which it was the impetus, the trigger 384 00:20:09,361 --> 00:20:10,803 of the crisis of the Euro, the crisis of 385 00:20:10,803 --> 00:20:12,340 the European Union, now. 386 00:20:12,340 --> 00:20:16,300 We've failed as The Left to break out 387 00:20:16,300 --> 00:20:18,473 of that past to break out of that very 388 00:20:18,473 --> 00:20:21,893 strict confines of a minority. 389 00:20:21,900 --> 00:20:24,496 We did this in Greece, briefly 390 00:20:24,496 --> 00:20:27,557 but this was not replicated in Germany, 391 00:20:27,557 --> 00:20:31,369 not replicated in France. 392 00:20:31,369 --> 00:20:33,823 The issues that we're facing however 393 00:20:33,823 --> 00:20:36,249 just like in the 1970's, are issues 394 00:20:36,249 --> 00:20:38,019 of that are existentialist for the 395 00:20:38,019 --> 00:20:40,555 survival of Europe and well beyond 396 00:20:40,555 --> 00:20:42,428 the limitations of The Left 397 00:20:42,428 --> 00:20:44,627 This why we're calling for a broad 398 00:20:44,627 --> 00:20:47,287 coalition of liberal, social, leftist, 399 00:20:47,287 --> 00:20:50,488 radical, green democrats, 400 00:20:50,488 --> 00:20:52,379 who agree on one simple idea 401 00:20:52,379 --> 00:20:54,773 that the "demos" must be centrally in 402 00:20:54,773 --> 00:20:55,615 "Democracy." 403 00:20:55,615 --> 00:20:58,307 And not be treated with contempt by 404 00:20:58,307 --> 00:21:00,358 bureaucrats that have usurped power 405 00:21:00,358 --> 00:21:04,418 without anyone even having noticed. 406 00:21:09,807 --> 00:21:12,395 Q: As the Refugee situation is always been mentioned 407 00:21:12,395 --> 00:21:22,195 as a threat. I wonder if it is possible, if you view it possible for your movement as a positive thing? as a common project for europe, as population growth rather than just a threat. 408 00:21:28,488 --> 00:21:30,315 A: If you read our manifest, it's very clear 409 00:21:30,315 --> 00:21:32,511 on this: One of the epithets we have 410 00:21:32,511 --> 00:21:34,527 attached to the Europe of our dreams 411 00:21:34,527 --> 00:21:37,013 and our aspirations, is an Open Europe. 412 00:21:37,013 --> 00:21:39,738 A Europe that understands 413 00:21:39,738 --> 00:21:45,478 that fences and borders reflect insecurity 414 00:21:45,841 --> 00:21:48,175 And spread insecurity in the name of 415 00:21:48,175 --> 00:21:52,469 security. Speaking as Yanis Varoufakis now, not as DiEM 416 00:21:52,469 --> 00:21:54,412 because DiEM has to be genuinely democratic 417 00:21:54,412 --> 00:21:56,342 and therefore we have to convene sessions 418 00:21:56,342 --> 00:21:58,712 of this, before we have a position about that. 419 00:21:58,790 --> 00:22:01,239 I will speak to you now, personally 420 00:22:01,239 --> 00:22:03,687 not as a representative of DiEM. 421 00:22:03,687 --> 00:22:06,408 Two points about refugees: 422 00:22:06,408 --> 00:22:10,259 Firstly from the ancient Greek tradition 423 00:22:10,259 --> 00:22:12,807 of philoxenia when somebody knocks on 424 00:22:12,807 --> 00:22:15,014 your door in the middle of the night, 425 00:22:15,014 --> 00:22:16,851 they're wet and they're hungry 426 00:22:16,851 --> 00:22:19,528 and they're blooded and scares, 427 00:22:19,528 --> 00:22:21,526 you don't do a cost-benefit-analysis 428 00:22:21,526 --> 00:22:22,900 to find out whether you should open the 429 00:22:22,900 --> 00:22:23,190 door. 430 00:22:23,190 --> 00:22:24,991 You just open it! 431 00:22:24,991 --> 00:22:27,034 And you worry about the percussions 432 00:22:27,034 --> 00:22:28,960 of what you have done, much later 433 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:32,719 after that person is dry, fed, watered 434 00:22:32,719 --> 00:22:35,000 and not scared. 435 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:36,113 Point number one. 436 00:22:36,113 --> 00:22:38,233 Point number two: 437 00:22:38,233 --> 00:22:40,446 Europe must come to terms with its 438 00:22:40,446 --> 00:22:43,243 history. For hundreds of years we have 439 00:22:43,243 --> 00:22:44,916 populated the Earth. 440 00:22:44,916 --> 00:22:48,369 We've exported Europeans to The Americas 441 00:22:48,369 --> 00:22:51,212 to Australia, to Asia, to Africa. 442 00:22:51,212 --> 00:22:54,534 We've colonized. We've killed off tribes 443 00:22:54,534 --> 00:22:57,379 and have taken over the world. 444 00:22:57,849 --> 00:23:00,953 That was fine, it was part of the great European exodus. 445 00:23:00,953 --> 00:23:03,389 Well, you know what? Guess what! 446 00:23:03,389 --> 00:23:06,290 The demographics of the planet are now 447 00:23:06,290 --> 00:23:08,254 changing and Europe is going to be 448 00:23:08,254 --> 00:23:10,026 repopulated to a very large extent 449 00:23:10,026 --> 00:23:11,348 by people from outside of Europe. 450 00:23:11,348 --> 00:23:13,190 We better accept that. 451 00:23:13,190 --> 00:23:14,741 Learn to live with it 452 00:23:14,741 --> 00:23:17,207 and learn to draw from it 453 00:23:17,207 --> 00:23:19,346 all the energy that we can. 454 00:23:19,346 --> 00:23:23,503 We are Aging Europe 455 00:23:23,503 --> 00:23:26,642 and concentrate on how to handle this. 456 00:23:26,642 --> 00:23:30,491 What polices are needed in order to make 457 00:23:30,491 --> 00:23:34,069 this dynamic transition. 458 00:23:34,069 --> 00:23:36,045 Come much closer to humanist values 459 00:23:36,045 --> 00:23:40,865 and European values. 460 00:23:54,376 --> 00:23:59,016 Q: While reading your manifesto I saw some short-term goals like transparency and openness 461 00:24:04,504 --> 00:24:09,074 and some midle-term goals like constitutional assembling directly 462 00:24:09,629 --> 00:24:13,669 from the people of Europe 463 00:24:14,431 --> 00:24:17,328 Would you please adress the means you have in order of leverage to achieve those 464 00:24:17,448 --> 00:24:17,998 goals, in a european context? 465 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:20,985 A: We have no means whatsoever. 466 00:24:20,985 --> 00:24:22,546 We're starting tonight 467 00:24:22,546 --> 00:24:24,574 Before tonight, we don't exist. 468 00:24:24,574 --> 00:24:27,017 They're who have no leverage. 469 00:24:27,017 --> 00:24:30,664 This is the whole point about a movement, 470 00:24:30,664 --> 00:24:33,940 you state principals, you state objectives 471 00:24:33,940 --> 00:24:36,096 you call upon fellow citizens from all 472 00:24:36,096 --> 00:24:39,443 over Europe to join in, if they think 473 00:24:39,443 --> 00:24:43,520 that there is a lacuna, ther is a dearth, that 474 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:44,820 there is a lack and that they feel that 475 00:24:44,820 --> 00:24:50,200 they need to come with you and promote 476 00:24:50,787 --> 00:24:53,858 collectively those objectives 477 00:24:53,858 --> 00:24:56,370 So, our leverage will be absolutely 478 00:24:56,370 --> 00:24:58,868 proportional to the number of people 479 00:24:58,868 --> 00:25:02,071 that join DiEM and take an active part 480 00:25:02,071 --> 00:25:05,101 in the pursuit of our common objectives 481 00:25:05,101 --> 00:25:10,181 That's democracy. 482 00:25:12,006 --> 00:25:16,236 Q: Again from Lesbos. Now you find a very militarization in Lesbos.. 483 00:25:30,321 --> 00:25:34,491 What is your answer to find a way out of this situation, because you don't find Europe, nor institutions only volunteers are working. 484 00:25:44,022 --> 00:25:48,022 I want to hear from you more concrete, what you can send appeal here in the evening, to go another way, not militarization, to find a political way to solve the problem, Its really time to act now. 485 00:25:59,289 --> 00:26:01,444 A: Precisely! This failure that you just 486 00:26:01,444 --> 00:26:04,512 described is a fundamental reason why 487 00:26:04,512 --> 00:26:07,356 we believe: We need a new movement 488 00:26:07,356 --> 00:26:09,757 in Europe, that offers Europeans an 489 00:26:09,757 --> 00:26:11,477 opportunities to discuss this as Europeans 490 00:26:11,477 --> 00:26:15,330 not as Greeks or as Germans or as Slovaks. 491 00:26:15,330 --> 00:26:17,668 But allow me, this is not the time to 492 00:26:17,668 --> 00:26:20,536 articulate the fully fledged policy 493 00:26:20,536 --> 00:26:22,290 response, but allow me to make a 494 00:26:22,290 --> 00:26:24,843 very simple point: Last summer 495 00:26:24,843 --> 00:26:26,157 our gouvernment in Greece - since you 496 00:26:26,157 --> 00:26:28,497 talked about Lesbos - 497 00:26:28,517 --> 00:26:32,827 was forced to capitulate to a deal 498 00:26:33,419 --> 00:26:36,625 that lends our bankrupt gouvernment 499 00:26:36,625 --> 00:26:39,569 another 85 billion. Before that 500 00:26:39,569 --> 00:26:41,297 we were forced as a nation to accept 501 00:26:41,297 --> 00:26:43,387 against the protestations of many of us 502 00:26:43,387 --> 00:26:47,364 on the streets, 130 billion in 2012. 503 00:26:47,364 --> 00:26:49,433 In 2010 we were forced to accept another 504 00:26:49,433 --> 00:26:53,331 110 billion, all supposedly as part of a 505 00:26:53,331 --> 00:26:55,192 solidarity to Greece - solidarity for 506 00:26:55,192 --> 00:26:57,952 the bankers - but anyway 507 00:26:58,012 --> 00:27:00,541 If all those tens and hundreds of billions 508 00:27:00,541 --> 00:27:03,018 can be forced down the throat of a nation 509 00:27:03,018 --> 00:27:07,436 that simply can't afford it, surely 510 00:27:07,436 --> 00:27:08,732 we could find one or two, by which 511 00:27:08,732 --> 00:27:11,752 to make this humanitarian part of the 512 00:27:12,039 --> 00:27:16,192 crisis go away - in the most humane way, 513 00:27:16,192 --> 00:27:19,180 in a way that does not constitute a 514 00:27:19,180 --> 00:27:22,357 stepping stone towards militarization. 515 00:27:22,357 --> 00:27:24,458 The fact that we are squabbling 516 00:27:24,458 --> 00:27:26,191 over the few hundreds of thousands of 517 00:27:26,191 --> 00:27:29,195 euros, when at the very same time 518 00:27:29,195 --> 00:27:31,126 bailouts of hundreds of billions 519 00:27:31,126 --> 00:27:34,136 of toxic loans are being banded about 520 00:27:34,136 --> 00:27:37,497 with abandon, this is another sign of 521 00:27:37,497 --> 00:27:39,910 the disintegration of the European Union 522 00:27:39,910 --> 00:27:42,043 History is going to pass very harsh 523 00:27:42,043 --> 00:27:45,553 judgement on us 524 00:27:48,688 --> 00:27:53,348 Q: You always talk about more democratic practic? Are we more democratic e.g. Communist 525 00:27:54,383 --> 00:27:59,283 Party of Greece called Greece to leave European Union 526 00:28:01,264 --> 00:28:03,809 A: Let me put it very sincerely: 527 00:28:03,809 --> 00:28:05,671 Maybe we should not have created the 528 00:28:05,671 --> 00:28:07,145 European Union the way we did. 529 00:28:07,145 --> 00:28:08,643 I'm convinced we shouldn't 530 00:28:08,643 --> 00:28:11,295 we should have either not create it or 531 00:28:11,295 --> 00:28:15,171 very differently, but once we've created 532 00:28:15,171 --> 00:28:17,460 it, the disintegration of the European 533 00:28:17,460 --> 00:28:21,321 Union is going to bring about 534 00:28:21,321 --> 00:28:26,101 a very rapid collapse that will resemble 535 00:28:26,101 --> 00:28:28,466 in terrible ways, what happened in the 536 00:28:28,466 --> 00:28:32,230 1930's and what I respond to my friends 537 00:28:32,230 --> 00:28:35,006 in the Communist Party, radical parts of 538 00:28:35,006 --> 00:28:36,728 the left, who are articulating the 539 00:28:36,728 --> 00:28:38,853 position, that maybe disintegration, 540 00:28:38,853 --> 00:28:40,901 going back to a national currency, to 541 00:28:40,901 --> 00:28:43,181 an nation state and so on, is that 542 00:28:43,181 --> 00:28:44,793 the solution, is I remind them 543 00:28:44,793 --> 00:28:47,625 that, when we had such disintegration in 544 00:28:47,625 --> 00:28:49,157 1930's, it was not humanism 545 00:28:49,157 --> 00:28:51,376 and it was not the left, that benefited 546 00:28:51,376 --> 00:28:54,728 It was the fascists, and it was the Nazis 547 00:28:54,728 --> 00:28:59,468 and Europe fell into a terrible trap 548 00:29:00,028 --> 00:29:02,994 with immense human costs 549 00:29:02,994 --> 00:29:04,364 Do we want the same? 550 00:29:04,364 --> 00:29:06,856 I certainly don't. 551 00:29:06,856 --> 00:29:11,516 We have time for one last question. 552 00:29:15,574 --> 00:29:19,714 Those who are accredited we invite to ask 553 00:29:19,835 --> 00:29:25,645 later. We also organized live-stream. 554 00:29:37,156 --> 00:29:42,816 Q: How wil you engage people from small countries in DiEM? 555 00:29:49,546 --> 00:29:52,792 A: We are great believers in acting locally, 556 00:29:52,792 --> 00:29:54,612 in the context of an over-arching 557 00:29:54,612 --> 00:29:58,340 pan-European agenda. So, there will be 558 00:29:58,340 --> 00:30:01,065 many different layers of participation 559 00:30:01,065 --> 00:30:03,006 There will be an application, an app 560 00:30:03,006 --> 00:30:05,917 on the peoples' phone; there will be a 561 00:30:05,917 --> 00:30:08,242 website, so the digital platform, which 562 00:30:08,242 --> 00:30:10,371 is these days essentially in anything 563 00:30:10,371 --> 00:30:12,499 one does at the collective or even at the 564 00:30:12,499 --> 00:30:16,657 individual level, those are digital 565 00:30:16,657 --> 00:30:20,446 platforms will allow people in Slovenia 566 00:30:20,446 --> 00:30:23,398 in Ljubljana, to find out who is around 567 00:30:23,398 --> 00:30:27,019 them, that is engaged. Our idea is to move 568 00:30:27,019 --> 00:30:30,149 very quickly from these forms of digital 569 00:30:30,149 --> 00:30:34,284 communication to town-hall events 570 00:30:34,284 --> 00:30:38,025 in towns, in villages, in cities. 571 00:30:38,025 --> 00:30:39,811 On themes, that we decide collectively 572 00:30:39,811 --> 00:30:42,523 throughout Europe. Leading to bigger 573 00:30:42,523 --> 00:30:45,705 events like the one we're having today 574 00:30:45,705 --> 00:30:47,182 On a rolling basis 575 00:30:47,182 --> 00:30:49,601 so, that the digital communication can 576 00:30:49,601 --> 00:30:52,010 become analog and take the form of 577 00:30:52,010 --> 00:30:55,634 face-to-face meetings, at the level of 578 00:30:55,634 --> 00:31:00,204 the local, the state, and the pan-European 579 00:31:00,550 --> 00:31:02,545 Thanks a lot. Maybe Yanis, you want a 580 00:31:02,545 --> 00:31:04,144 final message or.. 581 00:31:04,144 --> 00:31:06,156 Well, the final message is, that 582 00:31:06,156 --> 00:31:07,712 there's absolutely no doubt 583 00:31:07,712 --> 00:31:10,563 that, what we are doing with DiEM 584 00:31:10,563 --> 00:31:13,653 seems quite Utopian. 585 00:31:13,653 --> 00:31:16,640 The idea of starting a European movement 586 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:20,188 not from a particular country 587 00:31:20,188 --> 00:31:23,189 not from any existing organizational 588 00:31:23,269 --> 00:31:26,342 basis, but from a horizontal perspective 589 00:31:26,342 --> 00:31:29,069 throughout Europe, in order to change Europe 590 00:31:29,069 --> 00:31:32,332 and to stop the descent into this hole 591 00:31:32,332 --> 00:31:37,068 that disintegration is opening up for us 592 00:31:37,068 --> 00:31:39,786 It sounds pretty far fetched, and it may 593 00:31:39,786 --> 00:31:41,639 very well fail, but what is the 594 00:31:41,639 --> 00:31:45,451 alternative? The alternative is either 595 00:31:45,451 --> 00:31:47,516 to keep pretending, as the powers that be 596 00:31:47,516 --> 00:31:50,561 in the European Union are doing 597 00:31:50,561 --> 00:31:52,314 that they can maintain this European 598 00:31:52,314 --> 00:31:53,394 Union, that we now have. 599 00:31:53,394 --> 00:31:55,721 They can't - that's far more Utopian than 600 00:31:55,721 --> 00:31:58,916 what we are doing! 601 00:31:58,916 --> 00:32:02,356 And finally: The alternative to this 602 00:32:02,356 --> 00:32:06,372 Utopian project is a horrible dystopia 603 00:32:06,372 --> 00:32:11,062 that is going to punish severely everyone 604 00:32:11,372 --> 00:32:16,142 except those, who flourish and find ways 605 00:32:16,218 --> 00:32:19,958 of profiting it - Profiting from human 606 00:32:19,958 --> 00:32:20,838 disasters. 607 00:32:20,838 --> 00:32:26,098 Thank you very much!