9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000


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So Marcelo, here we have the Amazon map

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that shows us the deforestation area's data,

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which you are showing to us,

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and we would like to establish a relationship between this information

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and the theme we are working on our at this Camp: "evidence and influence".

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How do you think these two things are related?

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What are your thoughts about these subjects?

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This map is a work made with satellite images,

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and you are able, nowadays, to measure, for example,

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how much forest we have lost.

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Despite, that we have lost so much forest,

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we still have...This is still the biggest tropical forest area on the planet.

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It has essential importance for several environmental reasons, mainly, those linked with the regulation of the climate.

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as, for example, the steam, and its transferation to another regions.

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This map excludes some evidence

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which we cannot see on a map this scale,

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that is the 'forest degradation'.

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This is not the total forest area deforestation, but

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it is the cutting of some forest trees.

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So, 'forest degradation' is actually liked with some specific species?

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Exactly, specific species, for example, in wood industry or the coal industry

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In other words, specific species (of trees) are used for the coal industries.

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We have the coal industry in Brazil which have

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producing 'big iron'. These industries are clearing the

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remains of forest areas in some regions, mainly in Pará state region.

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Behind this destructive framework,

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we have a very bad violent reality.

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In fact, the greatest disputation in the Amazon, today,

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it is the resource disputation.

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This dispute, generally, it is been carried out in a violent way.

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As you can see on this map, for example,

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this is a protected areas' map,

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we have several protected areas and indigenous territories too.

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Those indigenous territories,

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the indigenous people have more abilities to protecting their areas,

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it is not the same in 'protected areas'.

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In Brazil, like in another South American countries,

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there are specific protected areas that are demarcated

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to support the survival of local communities.

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Those communities are vulnerable because

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the areas were created, but there is no governance.

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The government is not there helping these communities.

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We have a lot of different examples... I..

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I've lost one of my friends here, José Cláudio and Maria, his wife.

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She was killed because she was with him.

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Where did it happen?

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It happened in 'Nova Pichuna', in Pará state, in 2011, after

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four months after his interview in TEDx,

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when he told he had been given a death threat.

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Why did he die? He died because he used to guard the forest,

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his piece of land, the goverment gave him the land,

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it was a tiny piece of land, with 100 ha (0.38 mi²).

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The lumbermen and farms are looking for

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the lumbermen are looking for the wood,

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they want to cut down all the small areas, that belong to local farmers.

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These areas were donated by the government to the local communities for their using in sustainable practices.

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The farmers want to rent these lands for cattle,

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so they can put together various tiny areas to make a large farm

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or to cast out the local farmers and take their properties.

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My friend Jose was denouncing this and he was killed because of this.

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José Claudio's death felt by a lot of Brazilian people?

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The activists from the whole country were moved.

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Exactly. Because it is very hard to see threats like this one:

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the freedom of speech, the intimidation.

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I've recently heard a description from

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José Cláudio murders' judgement and

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the politics in the Brazilian region

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the problems are solved locally, with little capacity for understanding in regions of the country.

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Where I live, we do not get a lot of these dynamics.

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José Cláudio's story is a emblematic case,

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because of the fact that his speech was made at TEDx,

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this made him more well known among people,

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a public figure: his speech is on internet,

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many people have heard his story.

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Like him, we have a lot of leaders who have been murdered

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and they have continuously been murdered. Other people have been murdered after him

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but those people are not known. So, the big question is

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how to make public the stories of those people who are dying

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The fact of knowing though

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like, in the case of José Cláudio, whose situation was more known,

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unfortunately, it was not possible to prevent his death.

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No. Actually, I want to ask you

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We have information and we are able to point out the problem, but

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How could we invert the dynamics and use the information we have

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in order to do a more effective activism in these Amazon regions?

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I think, actually, we have information, but

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it is not used as it should be.

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We should show more this, make pressure on the government.

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The government knows: the 'comissão pastoral da terra',

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an organization administrated by the catholic church has a list of people under threat.

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If you take this list you can check like this: this one is dead, this is dead, dead....

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and this is unacceptable!

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This is, in fact, unacceptable!

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Not just the government, but also the society has to do something about it.

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When we think about 'the government',we think just about the executive government, but,

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what about the judiciary? Less than 1% these murder cases were solved.

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We have to change this reality.

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Why is it happening? Are they waiting judgments?

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Or, these cases never got into a court?

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The police never collect enough evidence of the murders,

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there is corruption in the police and in the judiciary.

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The prosecutors who accuse are not good,

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they are not able to accomplish the prosecution.

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Then, It is not possible to point to the masterminds of the crimes, or the murders.

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And It was what happened in the case of José Cláudio, right?

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Yes, it is exactly what happened in the case of José Cláudio.

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And the same thing happened in an even more well known case, that is the case of Sister Dorothy.

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In 2005, Sister Dorothy was killed.

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A Sister... It is hard to talk about it.. because..

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She was 70 years old...

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She was a friend...

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And she has been killed with the Bible in hands, you know?

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We are aware of who are the masterminds..

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And Is not it possible to gather enough proof? Just one of them has been indicted,

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and that is really sad, you know? We cannot accept that! loosing friends, and....

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And they are people who are important to keep as this world's treasure! That is unacceptable!

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It is a country where a 70 year old lady, a sister, a nun died and

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It is not possible to prosecute the real masterminds.

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In the Amazon we call it a 'consortium'

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Usually, people are killed by a 'consortium'

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The most well known people, those who really generate problems,

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The real troubles makers are the ones who work illegally.

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What they do is to create a 'consortium' between several farmers, loggers.and whoever.

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They get together to pay the murders and

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one member of the consortium is selected to

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be indicted in the case that the police actually find out what happened.

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That is what is happening there, so

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There still are lots of people being threatened.

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Things are better in some areas. But there still are too many issues

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I think that while we activists should highlight this even more

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José Cláudio was just one of many and a journalist decided

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to bring him to TEDx and show his face and due to this

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It was possible for us to call people's attention to his case

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and at least to arrest the murderers.

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If it was not like that he would have been just one more statistic,

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So, I believe that 'evidence' brings to light hat is happening and is essential.

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And, you know how It is like in loco, right?

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How do you think local people deal this Amazon issue,

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that involves politics, deforestation...

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Those people understand what they are doing pretty well,

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They know they are protecting social and human rights.

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and also the environment.

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For the most part they understand the connection between the environment and the people.

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There is not such thing as a rupture between these two things

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like some farmers think that there is, and

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face the forest as a trammers for them,

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For them, in order to develop It is necessery to take this trammer off.

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Another thing is that most people are aware

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They are under danger, but they insist ion staying there

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to keep protecting their area.

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This is a problem: not everyone agrees in protect themselves, you know?

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We keep in touch with lots of people from

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international organizations, people worried in promoting human rights

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They deal with new technologies and are having,

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through this video, the opportunity to

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learn about what is happening

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How could these international organizations help to transform

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this reality that is so clear for those who work in there,

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and make political action more effective, defending people from the violence and

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the deforestation of the Amazon?

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I think that they can help local organizations

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that are already there and are working in order to reduce the violence.

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They could amplify their voices,

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help people hear and pay attention to what is happening there.

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There are several local organizations,

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The 'Comissão Pastoral da Terra' (Pastoral Land Commission) is one of them

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and It could be contacted for a list of other local organisations.

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I should say this situation does not happen just in Brazil, It also happens in Peru.

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And for those who are not in Brazil,

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to gather information on internet about what is happening,

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what would be the best first step?

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There are these organisations that have the data,

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their is government data. But, It is hard to gather all the information available.

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Mainly, for those who are abroad, isn't it?

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The Brazilian Public Prosecutor also has

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a list of people who have been threatened in the region.

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The point is that there is not any program, you know

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We have moved in the direction of disclosure of the information.

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organize the information would also be a way of make a difference.