So Marcelo, here we have the Amazon map
that shows us the deforestation area's data,
which you are showing to us,
and we would like to establish a relationship between this information
and the theme we are working on our at this Camp: "evidence and influence".
How do you think these two things are related?
What are your thoughts about these subjects?
This map is a work made with satellite images,
and you are able, nowadays, to measure, for example,
how much forest we have lost.
Despite, that we have lost so much forest,
we still have...This is still the biggest tropical forest area on the planet.
It has essential importance for several environmental reasons, mainly, those linked with the regulation of the climate.
as, for example, the steam, and its transferation to another regions.
This map excludes some evidence
which we cannot see on a map this scale,
that is the 'forest degradation'.
This is not the total forest area deforestation, but
it is the cutting of some forest trees.
So, 'forest degradation' is actually liked with some specific species?
Exactly, specific species, for example, in wood industry or the coal industry
In other words, specific species (of trees) are used for the coal industries.
We have the coal industry in Brazil which have
producing 'big iron'. These industries are clearing the
remains of forest areas in some regions, mainly in Pará state region.
Behind this destructive framework,
we have a very bad violent reality.
In fact, the greatest disputation in the Amazon, today,
it is the resource disputation.
This dispute, generally, it is been carried out in a violent way.
As you can see on this map, for example,
this is a protected areas' map,
we have several protected areas and indigenous territories too.
Those indigenous territories,
the indigenous people have more abilities to protecting their areas,
it is not the same in 'protected areas'.
In Brazil, like in another South American countries,
there are specific protected areas that are demarcated
to support the survival of local communities.
Those communities are vulnerable because
the areas were created, but there is no governance.
The government is not there helping these communities.
We have a lot of different examples... I..
I've lost one of my friends here, José Cláudio and Maria, his wife.
She was killed because she was with him.
Where did it happen?
It happened in 'Nova Pichuna', in Pará state, in 2011, after
four months after his interview in TEDx,
when he told he had been given a death threat.
Why did he die? He died because he used to guard the forest,
his piece of land, the goverment gave him the land,
it was a tiny piece of land, with 100 ha (0.38 mi²).
The lumbermen and farms are looking for
the lumbermen are looking for the wood,
they want to cut down all the small areas, that belong to local farmers.
These areas were donated by the government to the local communities for their using in sustainable practices.
The farmers want to rent these lands for cattle,
so they can put together various tiny areas to make a large farm
or to cast out the local farmers and take their properties.
My friend Jose was denouncing this and he was killed because of this.
José Claudio's death felt by a lot of Brazilian people?
The activists from the whole country were moved.
Exactly. Because it is very hard to see threats like this one:
the freedom of speech, the intimidation.
I've recently heard a description from
José Cláudio murders' judgement and
the politics in the Brazilian region
the problems are solved locally, with little capacity for understanding in regions of the country.
Where I live, we do not get a lot of these dynamics.
José Cláudio's story is a emblematic case,
because of the fact that his speech was made at TEDx,
this made him more well known among people,
a public figure: his speech is on internet,
many people have heard his story.
Like him, we have a lot of leaders who have been murdered
and they have continuously been murdered. Other people have been murdered after him
but those people are not known. So, the big question is
how to make public the stories of those people who are dying
The fact of knowing though
like, in the case of José Cláudio, whose situation was more known,
unfortunately, it was not possible to prevent his death.
No. Actually, I want to ask you
We have information and we are able to point out the problem, but
How could we invert the dynamics and use the information we have
in order to do a more effective activism in these Amazon regions?
I think, actually, we have information, but
it is not used as it should be.
We should show more this, make pressure on the government.
The government knows: the 'comissão pastoral da terra',
an organization administrated by the catholic church has a list of people under threat.
If you take this list you can check like this: this one is dead, this is dead, dead....
and this is unacceptable!
This is, in fact, unacceptable!
Not just the government, but also the society has to do something about it.
When we think about 'the government',we think just about the executive government, but,
what about the judiciary? Less than 1% these murder cases were solved.
We have to change this reality.
Why is it happening? Are they waiting judgments?
Or, these cases never got into a court?
The police never collect enough evidence of the murders,
there is corruption in the police and in the judiciary.
The prosecutors who accuse are not good,
they are not able to accomplish the prosecution.
Then, It is not possible to point to the masterminds of the crimes, or the murders.
And It was what happened in the case of José Cláudio, right?
Yes, it is exactly what happened in the case of José Cláudio.
And the same thing happened in an even more well known case, that is the case of Sister Dorothy.
In 2005, Sister Dorothy was killed.
A Sister... It is hard to talk about it.. because..
She was 70 years old...
She was a friend...
And she has been killed with the Bible in hands, you know?
We are aware of who are the masterminds..
And Is not it possible to gather enough proof? Just one of them has been indicted,
and that is really sad, you know? We cannot accept that! loosing friends, and....
And they are people who are important to keep as this world's treasure! That is unacceptable!
It is a country where a 70 year old lady, a sister, a nun died and
It is not possible to prosecute the real masterminds.
In the Amazon we call it a 'consortium'
Usually, people are killed by a 'consortium'
The most well known people, those who really generate problems,
The real troubles makers are the ones who work illegally.
What they do is to create a 'consortium' between several farmers, loggers.and whoever.
They get together to pay the murders and
one member of the consortium is selected to
be indicted in the case that the police actually find out what happened.
That is what is happening there, so
There still are lots of people being threatened.
Things are better in some areas. But there still are too many issues
I think that while we activists should highlight this even more
José Cláudio was just one of many and a journalist decided
to bring him to TEDx and show his face and due to this
It was possible for us to call people's attention to his case
and at least to arrest the murderers.
If it was not like that he would have been just one more statistic,
So, I believe that 'evidence' brings to light hat is happening and is essential.
And, you know how It is like in loco, right?
How do you think local people deal this Amazon issue,
that involves politics, deforestation...
Those people understand what they are doing pretty well,
They know they are protecting social and human rights.
and also the environment.
For the most part they understand the connection between the environment and the people.
There is not such thing as a rupture between these two things
like some farmers think that there is, and
face the forest as a trammers for them,
For them, in order to develop It is necessery to take this trammer off.
Another thing is that most people are aware
They are under danger, but they insist ion staying there
to keep protecting their area.
This is a problem: not everyone agrees in protect themselves, you know?
We keep in touch with lots of people from
international organizations, people worried in promoting human rights
They deal with new technologies and are having,
through this video, the opportunity to
learn about what is happening
How could these international organizations help to transform
this reality that is so clear for those who work in there,
and make political action more effective, defending people from the violence and
the deforestation of the Amazon?
I think that they can help local organizations
that are already there and are working in order to reduce the violence.
They could amplify their voices,
help people hear and pay attention to what is happening there.
There are several local organizations,
The 'Comissão Pastoral da Terra' (Pastoral Land Commission) is one of them
and It could be contacted for a list of other local organisations.
I should say this situation does not happen just in Brazil, It also happens in Peru.
And for those who are not in Brazil,
to gather information on internet about what is happening,
what would be the best first step?
There are these organisations that have the data,
their is government data. But, It is hard to gather all the information available.
Mainly, for those who are abroad, isn't it?
The Brazilian Public Prosecutor also has
a list of people who have been threatened in the region.
The point is that there is not any program, you know
We have moved in the direction of disclosure of the information.
organize the information would also be a way of make a difference.