WEBVTT 00:00:03.832 --> 00:00:08.024 So Marcelo, here we have the Amazon map 00:00:08.024 --> 00:00:12.992 that shows us the deforestation area data, 00:00:12.992 --> 00:00:12.992 which you are showing to us 00:00:12.992 --> 00:00:22.061 Can you explain the relationship with this data and the theme we are working on our at this Camp: "evidence and influence"? 00:00:22.061 --> 00:00:25.406 What are your thoughts on these subjects? 00:00:25.406 --> 00:00:29.661 This map is a work made with satellite images, 00:00:29.661 --> 00:00:32.124 and you are able, nowadays, to measure, for example, 00:00:32.124 --> 00:00:35.305 how much forest we have lost. 00:00:35.305 --> 00:00:38.570 Despite, that we have lost so much forest, 00:00:38.570 --> 00:00:44.800 we still have...This is still the largest tropical forest area on the planet. 00:00:44.800 --> 00:00:51.789 This forest is critical for several environmental services, mainly, those linked with the regulation of the climate, 00:00:51.789 --> 00:00:58.990 as, for exemple, with the water steam produced by the forest that is then transferred across other regions 00:00:58.990 --> 00:01:04.051 This map also excludes some evidence 00:01:04.051 --> 00:01:08.357 which we cannot see on a map of this scale 00:01:08.357 --> 00:01:12.750 and that is the 'forest degradation'. 00:01:12.766 --> 00:01:15.250 This is not the total forest area deforestation, but 00:01:15.250 --> 00:01:18.347 it is the cutting down of some forest trees or species. 00:01:18.347 --> 00:01:22.546 So, 'forest degradation' is actually linked with some specific species? 00:01:22.558 --> 00:01:29.886 Exactly, specific species, for example, that are used in the lumber industry or the coal industry. 00:01:29.886 --> 00:01:34.138 Specific species (of trees) are used for the coal industries. 00:01:34.138 --> 00:01:37.465 We have the coal industry in Brazil and some of these are 00:01:37.465 --> 00:01:40.409 producing iron ore. These industries are clearing the 00:01:40.409 --> 00:01:46.382 remains of forest areas in some regions, mainly in Pará state region. 00:01:47.520 --> 00:01:50.367 Behind this destructive work, 00:01:50.367 --> 00:01:56.244 we have a very bad, a violent reality. 00:01:56.244 --> 00:02:01.760 In fact, the greatest disputation in the Amazon, today, 00:02:01.760 --> 00:02:04.114 Is the natural resources disputation. 00:02:04.114 --> 00:02:11.849 This dispute, generally, has been carried out in a very violent way. 00:02:11.849 --> 00:02:14.460 As you can see on this map, for example, 00:02:14.460 --> 00:02:17.333 this is a 'protected areas' map, 00:02:17.333 --> 00:02:22.677 we have several protected areas and indigenous territories too. 00:02:22.677 --> 00:02:25.658 In these indigenous territories, the indigenous people 00:02:25.658 --> 00:02:28.053 have more ability to protect their areas but 00:02:28.053 --> 00:02:30.963 it is not the same in 'protected areas'. 00:02:30.963 --> 00:02:33.997 In Brazil, like in another South American countries, 00:02:33.997 --> 00:02:37.366 there are specific protected areas that are demarcated 00:02:37.366 --> 00:02:40.925 to support the survival of local communities. 00:02:40.956 --> 00:02:44.620 Those communities are vulnerable because 00:02:44.620 --> 00:02:48.591 the areas were created, but there is no governance. 00:02:48.591 --> 00:02:52.360 The government is not there helping these communities. 00:02:52.360 --> 00:02:56.324 We have a lot of different examples... I.. 00:02:56.324 --> 00:03:00.988 I've lost one of my friends here, José Cláudio and Maria, his wife. 00:03:00.988 --> 00:03:03.345 She was killed because she was with him. 00:03:03.345 --> 00:03:05.610 Where did it happen? 00:03:05.610 --> 00:03:12.234 It happened in 'Nova Pichuna', in Pará state, in 2011, 00:03:12.234 --> 00:03:16.394 four months after his interview in TEDx, 00:03:16.394 --> 00:03:19.647 when he reported that he had been issued death threats. 00:03:19.647 --> 00:03:23.108 Why did he die? He died because he used to guard the forest, 00:03:23.108 --> 00:03:25.998 his piece of land, the land the government gave him. 00:03:25.998 --> 00:03:29.293 It was a tiny piece of land, with 100 ha (0.38 mi²). 00:03:29.293 --> 00:03:33.548 The lumbermen and farms in this area are looking for... 00:03:33.548 --> 00:03:38.595 the lumbermen are looking for the wood. 00:03:38.595 --> 00:03:46.789 These areas were donated by the government to the local communities for their use in sustainable practices. 00:03:46.789 --> 00:03:50.946 The farmers want to rent these lands for cattle, 00:03:50.961 --> 00:03:55.035 so they can pull together various tiny areas to make a large farm, 00:03:55.035 --> 00:03:59.801 or even, they cast out the local farmers and take their properties. 00:03:59.815 --> 00:04:04.794 My friend Jose was denouncing this and he was killed because of this. 00:04:04.794 --> 00:04:07.953 José Claudio's death was felt by a lot of Brazilian people? 00:04:07.953 --> 00:04:11.068 Activists across the whole country were moved. 00:04:11.068 --> 00:04:13.662 Because it is very hard to see threats like this one: 00:04:13.678 --> 00:04:17.228 the freedom of speech, the violence and intimidation. 00:04:17.228 --> 00:04:22.233 I've recently heard a description of a friend of mine who had participated in 00:04:22.233 --> 00:04:25.440 José Cláudio murderers' judgement and it is 00:04:25.440 --> 00:04:30.463 the politics in this Brazilian region (North). 00:04:30.463 --> 00:04:39.233 The dynamics are so local, the problems are solved by the local inhabitants (not the police) 00:04:39.233 --> 00:04:42.336 and none of the other Brazilian regions know about this violence. 00:04:42.336 --> 00:04:44.610 Where I live, we do not get a lot of these dynamics. 00:04:44.610 --> 00:04:46.792 José Cláudio's story is a emblematic case, 00:04:46.792 --> 00:04:53.907 because of the fact that his speech was made at TEDx, 00:04:53.907 --> 00:04:58.078 this made him more well known among people, 00:04:58.078 --> 00:04:59.884 a public figure: his speech is on internet, 00:04:59.884 --> 00:05:03.942 many people heard his story. 00:05:03.942 --> 00:05:08.373 Like him, we have a lot of leaders who have been murdered NOTE Paragraph 00:05:08.373 --> 00:05:12.453 and they are continuously being murdered. Other people have been murdered after him, 00:05:12.453 --> 00:05:18.594 but those people are not known. So, the evidence, the big question is 00:05:18.594 --> 00:05:23.307 how to make public the stories of those people who are dying. 00:05:23.307 --> 00:05:27.432 The fact of knowing though like, in the case of José Cláudio, 00:05:27.432 --> 00:05:30.447 whose situation was more known, 00:05:30.447 --> 00:05:34.687 unfortunately, it was still not possible to prevent his death. 00:05:34.693 --> 00:05:40.740 I want to ask you. We have information and we are able to point out the problem 00:05:40.740 --> 00:05:45.041 how could we invert the dynamics and use the information we have 00:05:45.041 --> 00:05:50.334 in order to do more effective activism in these Amazon regions? 00:05:50.334 --> 00:05:52.942 I think, actually, we have information, but 00:05:52.942 --> 00:05:56.200 it is not used as it should be. 00:05:56.215 --> 00:06:00.222 We should show this more, put more pressure on the government. 00:06:00.222 --> 00:06:04.262 The government knows. The 'Comissão Pastoral da Terra' (Pastoral Land Commission), 00:06:04.262 --> 00:06:08.532 an organisation administrated by the catholic church, has a list of people under threat. 00:06:08.532 --> 00:06:12.797 If you take this list you can check like this: this one is dead, this is dead, dead.... 00:06:12.797 --> 00:06:15.813 And this is unacceptable! 00:06:15.813 --> 00:06:19.829 Not just the government, but also the society has to do something about it. 00:06:19.829 --> 00:06:23.647 When we think about 'the government', we think just about the executive government, 00:06:23.647 --> 00:06:33.024 but what about the judiciary? Less than 1% these murder cases were solved. 00:06:33.024 --> 00:06:36.113 We have to change this reality. 00:06:36.113 --> 00:06:39.252 Why is it happening? Are they waiting for judgments? 00:06:39.252 --> 00:06:41.693 Or, these cases never getting into court? 00:06:41.693 --> 00:06:45.838 The police never collect enough evidence of the murders, 00:06:45.838 --> 00:06:50.666 there is corruption in the police and in the judiciary. 00:06:50.666 --> 00:06:55.308 The prosecutors who accuse are not good, 00:06:55.308 --> 00:06:58.154 they are not able to accomplish the prosecution. 00:06:58.154 --> 00:07:04.320 Then, it is not possible to point to the masterminds of the crimes, or the murderers. 00:07:04.320 --> 00:07:06.878 And It was what happened in the case of José Cláudio, right? 00:07:06.894 --> 00:07:13.306 Yes. And also the same thing happened in an even more well known case, that is the case of Sister Dorothy. 00:07:13.306 --> 00:07:18.138 In 2005, Sister (a nun) Dorothy was killed. 00:07:18.138 --> 00:07:25.776 A Sister... It is hard to talk about it.. because.. 00:07:25.776 --> 00:07:28.963 She was 70 years old... 00:07:28.963 --> 00:07:31.850 She was a friend... 00:07:31.850 --> 00:07:36.892 And she has been killed with the Bible in hands, you know? 00:07:36.892 --> 00:07:40.369 We are aware of who are the masterminds.. 00:07:40.369 --> 00:07:44.908 And Is not it possible to gather enough proof? Just one of them has been indicted, 00:07:44.908 --> 00:07:50.460 and that is really sad, you know? We cannot accept that! Losing friends, and.... 00:07:50.460 --> 00:07:58.582 And they are people who are important to keep as this world's treasure! That is unacceptable! 00:07:58.582 --> 00:08:06.808 It is a country where a 70 year old lady, a sister, a nun died and 00:08:06.808 --> 00:08:11.252 It is not possible to prosecute the real masterminds? 00:08:11.252 --> 00:08:14.290 In the Amazon we call it a 'consortium' 00:08:14.290 --> 00:08:17.518 Usually, people are killed by a 'consortium' 00:08:17.518 --> 00:08:20.013 The most well known people, those who really generate problems. 00:08:20.013 --> 00:08:26.972 The real troubles makers are those people who work illegally (in the Amazon). 00:08:26.972 --> 00:08:33.118 What they do is to create a 'consortium' between several farmers. 00:08:33.118 --> 00:08:35.780 They get together to pay the murderers and 00:08:35.780 --> 00:08:38.358 one member of the consortium is selected to 00:08:38.358 --> 00:08:41.647 be indicted in the case that the police actually find out what happened. 00:08:41.647 --> 00:08:45.067 That is what is happening there, so 00:08:45.067 --> 00:08:48.223 there still are lots of people being threatened. 00:08:48.223 --> 00:08:51.729 Things are better in some areas. But there still are too many issues. 00:08:51.729 --> 00:08:57.119 I think that while we activists should highlight this even more 00:08:57.119 --> 00:09:02.530 José Cláudio was just one of many hidden people (under threat) and a journalist decided 00:09:02.530 --> 00:09:06.432 to bring him to TEDx and show his face and due to this 00:09:06.432 --> 00:09:11.580 it was possible for us to call people's attention to his case 00:09:11.580 --> 00:09:14.619 and at least to arrest the murderers. 00:09:14.619 --> 00:09:18.225 If it was not like that he would have been just one more statistic. 00:09:18.225 --> 00:09:24.646 So I believe that 'evidence' brings to light what is happening. 00:09:24.646 --> 00:09:29.115 And, you know how It is in this region so 00:09:29.115 --> 00:09:35.108 how do you think the local people deal with this Amazon issue, 00:09:35.108 --> 00:09:39.579 that involves politics, deforestation...? 00:09:39.579 --> 00:09:45.808 The network between these people is strong and they understand what they are doing pretty well. 00:09:45.808 --> 00:09:51.683 They know they are protecting social and human rights 00:09:51.683 --> 00:09:55.283 and also the environment. 00:09:55.283 --> 00:10:00.090 For the most part they understand the connection between the environment and human beings. 00:10:00.090 --> 00:10:02.923 There is no rupture between these two things. 00:10:02.923 --> 00:10:06.943 It is different to how farmers think, who have separated these two things 00:10:06.943 --> 00:10:09.998 They face the forest as though they are trammels. 00:10:09.998 --> 00:10:13.232 For them to develop It is necessary to take these trammels off. 00:10:13.232 --> 00:10:17.142 Another thing is that most aware people 00:10:17.142 --> 00:10:20.982 insist on staying there to keep protecting their area. 00:10:20.982 --> 00:10:28.111 Not everyone agrees in protecting themselves first, you know? 00:10:28.111 --> 00:10:31.806 Here at Camp we are in touch with lots of people 00:10:31.806 --> 00:10:36.200 from international organisations, people concerned about promoting human rights. 00:10:36.200 --> 00:10:40.293 They deal with new technologies and through this video, 00:10:40.293 --> 00:10:43.554 we have the opportunity to talk with this international community. 00:10:43.554 --> 00:10:47.413 How could these international organisations help to transform 00:10:47.413 --> 00:10:50.635 this reality that is so clear for those who work there, 00:10:50.635 --> 00:10:54.684 so as to make political action more effective, defending people from the violence 00:10:54.684 --> 00:11:01.052 and protecting against the deforestation of the Amazon? 00:11:01.052 --> 00:11:03.619 I think that they can help local organisations 00:11:03.619 --> 00:11:06.781 that are already there and are working in order to reduce the violence. 00:11:06.781 --> 00:11:09.880 They could amplify their voices, 00:11:09.880 --> 00:11:14.653 help people hear and pay attention to what is happening there. 00:11:14.653 --> 00:11:18.204 There are several local organisations. 00:11:18.204 --> 00:11:23.106 The 'Comissão Pastoral da Terra' (Pastoral Land Commission) is one of them 00:11:23.106 --> 00:11:27.860 and It could be contacted for a list of other local organisations. 00:11:27.860 --> 00:11:34.517 I should say this situation does not happen just in Brazil, It also happens in Peru. 00:11:34.517 --> 00:11:38.260 And for those who are far from Brazil, 00:11:38.260 --> 00:11:43.023 to gather information on internet about what is happening, 00:11:43.023 --> 00:11:50.690 what would be the best first step? 00:11:50.690 --> 00:11:54.748 There are these organisations that have the data, 00:11:54.748 --> 00:11:59.819 there is government data. But, it is hard to gather all the information available. 00:11:59.819 --> 00:12:02.474 Mainly, for those who are abroad, isn't it? 00:12:02.474 --> 00:12:06.113 The Brazilian Public Prosecutor also has 00:12:06.113 --> 00:12:11.157 a list of people who have been threatened in the region. 00:12:11.157 --> 00:12:17.061 The point is that there is not any campaign, national or even regional campaign 00:12:17.061 --> 00:12:22.256 which we can use to move in the direction of the disclosure of the information. 00:12:22.256 --> 00:12:28.744 I also think that organising the information would also be a way to really make a difference.