1
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999


2
00:00:03,540 --> 00:00:07,501
So Marcelo, here we have the Amazon map

3
00:00:07,501 --> 00:00:09,301
that shows us the deforestation area data,

4
00:00:09,301 --> 00:00:09,986
which you are showing to us

5
00:00:09,986 --> 00:00:10,334
Can you explain what is the relationship between this information

6
00:00:10,334 --> 00:00:20,962
and the theme we are working on our at this Camp: "evidence and influence".

7
00:00:20,962 --> 00:00:22,277
How do you think these two things are related?

8
00:00:22,277 --> 00:00:24,453
What are your thoughts about these subjects?

9
00:00:24,992 --> 00:00:29,385
This map is a work made with satellite images,

10
00:00:29,385 --> 00:00:32,063
and you are able, nowadays, to measure, for example,

11
00:00:32,063 --> 00:00:34,521
how much forest we have lost.

12
00:00:34,521 --> 00:00:38,570
Despite, that we have lost so much forest,

13
00:00:38,570 --> 00:00:45,262
we still have...This is still the largest tropical forest area on the planet.

14
00:00:45,262 --> 00:00:52,483
This forest is critical for several environmental services, mainly, those linked with the regulation of the climate,

15
00:00:52,483 --> 00:00:58,866
because of the water steam produced by the forest that is then transferred across other regions

16
00:01:00,114 --> 00:01:02,944
This map also excludes some evidence

17
00:01:03,035 --> 00:01:06,050
which we cannot see on a map of this scale and

18
00:01:08,213 --> 00:01:12,166
that is the 'forest degradation'.

19
00:01:12,166 --> 00:01:14,389
This is not the total forest area deforestation, but

20
00:01:14,389 --> 00:01:17,747
it is the cutting down of some forest trees or species.

21
00:01:17,747 --> 00:01:22,546
So, 'forest degradation' is actually liked with some specific species?

22
00:01:22,558 --> 00:01:29,364
Exactly, specific species, for example, that are used in the lumber industry or the coal industry.

23
00:01:29,364 --> 00:01:32,216
Specific species (of trees) are used for the coal industries.

24
00:01:32,216 --> 00:01:35,127
We have the coal industry in Brazil and some of these are

25
00:01:35,127 --> 00:01:38,672
producing iron ore. These industries are clearing the

26
00:01:38,718 --> 00:01:45,167
remains of forest areas in some regions, mainly in Pará state region.

27
00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:50,367
Behind this destructive work,

28
00:01:50,367 --> 00:01:53,414
we have a very bad, a violent reality.

29
00:01:57,106 --> 00:02:01,760
In fact, the greatest disputation in the Amazon, today,

30
00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:03,730
Is the natural resources disputation.

31
00:02:03,730 --> 00:02:10,958
This dispute, generally, is been carried out in a violent way.

32
00:02:10,958 --> 00:02:14,460
As you can see on this map, for example,

33
00:02:14,460 --> 00:02:16,810
this is a 'protected areas' map,

34
00:02:16,810 --> 00:02:21,693
we have several protected areas and indigenous territories too.

35
00:02:21,693 --> 00:02:24,767
In these indigenous territories, the indigenous people

36
00:02:24,767 --> 00:02:27,561
have more ability to protect their areas but

37
00:02:27,561 --> 00:02:29,580
it is not the same in 'protected areas'.

38
00:02:29,580 --> 00:02:33,644
In Brazil, like in another South American countries,

39
00:02:33,644 --> 00:02:36,490
there are specific protected areas that are demarcated

40
00:02:36,490 --> 00:02:40,325
to support the survival of local communities.

41
00:02:40,341 --> 00:02:44,620
Those communities are vulnerable because

42
00:02:44,620 --> 00:02:48,130
the areas were created, but there is no governance.

43
00:02:48,130 --> 00:02:52,607
The government is not there helping these communities.

44
00:02:52,607 --> 00:02:55,755
We have a lot of different examples... I..

45
00:02:55,755 --> 00:03:00,081
I've lost one of my friends here, José Cláudio and Maria, his wife.

46
00:03:00,081 --> 00:03:02,284
She was killed because she was with him.

47
00:03:02,284 --> 00:03:05,087
Where did it happen?

48
00:03:05,087 --> 00:03:10,004
It happened in 'Nova Pichuna', in Pará state, in 2011,

49
00:03:11,604 --> 00:03:15,933
four months after his interview in TEDx,

50
00:03:16,348 --> 00:03:19,324
when he reported that he had been issued death threats.

51
00:03:19,324 --> 00:03:22,893
Why did he die? He died because he used to guard the forest,

52
00:03:22,893 --> 00:03:25,998
his piece of land, the land the government gave him.

53
00:03:25,998 --> 00:03:28,786
It was a tiny piece of land, with 100 ha (0.38 mi²).

54
00:03:28,786 --> 00:03:33,548
The lumbermen and farms in this area are looking for...

55
00:03:33,548 --> 00:03:39,319
the lumbermen are looking for the wood.

56
00:03:39,319 --> 00:03:46,420
These areas were donated by the government to the local communities for their use in sustainable practices.

57
00:03:46,420 --> 00:03:50,946
The farmers want to rent these lands for cattle,

58
00:03:50,961 --> 00:03:54,512
so they can pull together various tiny areas to make a large farm

59
00:03:54,512 --> 00:03:59,758
so they cast out the local farmers and take their properties.

60
00:04:00,142 --> 00:04:04,287
My friend Jose was denouncing this and he was killed because of this.

61
00:04:04,287 --> 00:04:06,785
José Claudio's death was felt by a lot of Brazilian people?

62
00:04:06,785 --> 00:04:10,038
Activists across the whole country were moved.

63
00:04:10,038 --> 00:04:13,155
Exactly. Because it is very hard to see threats like this one:

64
00:04:13,155 --> 00:04:16,490
the freedom of speech, the violence and intimidation.

65
00:04:16,490 --> 00:04:22,003
I've recently heard a description of a friend of mine how had participated in

66
00:04:22,049 --> 00:04:24,533
José Cláudio murders' judgement and it is

67
00:04:24,533 --> 00:04:29,957
the politics in this Brazilian region (North).

68
00:04:32,849 --> 00:04:40,511
The dynamics are so local, the problems are solved by the local inhabitants (not the police)

69
00:04:40,572 --> 00:04:42,645
and none of the other Brazilian regions know about this violence situation.

70
00:04:42,645 --> 00:04:44,718
Where I live, we do not get a lot of these dynamics.

71
00:04:44,718 --> 00:04:46,792
José Cláudio's story is a emblematic case,

72
00:04:46,792 --> 00:04:51,892
because of the fact that his speech was made at TEDx,

73
00:04:53,199 --> 00:04:58,078
this made him more well known among people,

74
00:04:58,078 --> 00:04:59,884
a public figure: his speech is on internet,

75
00:04:59,884 --> 00:05:03,466
many people have heard his story.

76
00:05:04,173 --> 00:05:08,820
Like him, we have a lot of leaders who have been murdered

77
00:05:08,820 --> 00:05:12,100
and they have continuously been murdered. Other people have been murdered after him,

78
00:05:12,100 --> 00:05:17,733
but those people are not known. So, the big question is

79
00:05:18,086 --> 00:05:22,216
how to make public the stories of those people who are dying.

80
00:05:22,216 --> 00:05:27,432
The fact of knowing though like, in the case of José Cláudio,

81
00:05:27,432 --> 00:05:30,447
whose situation was more known,

82
00:05:30,447 --> 00:05:34,287
unfortunately, it was still not possible to prevent his death.

83
00:05:34,287 --> 00:05:37,093
No. Actually, I want to ask you.

84
00:05:37,093 --> 00:05:40,740
We have information and we are able to point out the problem, but

85
00:05:40,740 --> 00:05:45,041
how could we invert the dynamics and use the information we have

86
00:05:45,041 --> 00:05:49,873
in order to do more effective activism in these Amazon regions?

87
00:05:50,327 --> 00:05:52,942
I think, actually, we have information, but

88
00:05:52,942 --> 00:05:55,354
it is not used as it should be.

89
00:05:55,354 --> 00:05:59,746
We should show this more, put more pressure on the government.

90
00:05:59,746 --> 00:06:03,124
The government knows. The 'Comissão Pastoral da Terra' (Pastoral Land Commission),

91
00:06:03,124 --> 00:06:07,040
an organisation administrated by the catholic church, has a list of people under threat.

92
00:06:07,509 --> 00:06:11,229
If you take this list you can check like this: this one is dead, this is dead, dead....

93
00:06:11,229 --> 00:06:14,860
and this is unacceptable!

94
00:06:16,564 --> 00:06:19,829
It is unacceptable. Not just the government, but also the society has to do something about it.

95
00:06:19,829 --> 00:06:23,678
When we think about 'the government', we think just about the executive government,

96
00:06:23,678 --> 00:06:33,086
but what about the judiciary? Less than 1% these murder cases were solved.

97
00:06:33,724 --> 00:06:35,546
We have to change this reality.

98
00:06:35,546 --> 00:06:38,207
Why is it happening? Are they waiting for judgments?

99
00:06:38,207 --> 00:06:41,693
Or, these cases never getting into court?

100
00:06:41,693 --> 00:06:45,838
The police never collect enough evidence of the murders,

101
00:06:45,838 --> 00:06:50,666
there is corruption in the police and in the judiciary.

102
00:06:50,666 --> 00:06:55,155
The prosecutors who accuse are not good,

103
00:06:55,186 --> 00:06:57,462
they are not able to accomplish the prosecution.

104
00:06:57,462 --> 00:07:04,320
Then, it is not possible to point to the masterminds of the crimes, or the murders.

105
00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:05,974
And It was what happened in the case of José Cláudio, right?

106
00:07:05,974 --> 00:07:08,314
Yes, it is exactly what happened in the case of José Cláudio.

107
00:07:08,314 --> 00:07:13,001
And the same thing happened in an even more well known case, that is the case of Sister Dorothy.

108
00:07:13,001 --> 00:07:16,462
In 2005, Sister (a nun) Dorothy was killed.

109
00:07:17,124 --> 00:07:23,483
A Sister... It is hard to talk about it.. because..

110
00:07:26,023 --> 00:07:27,578
She was 70 years old...

111
00:07:29,102 --> 00:07:31,113
She was a friend...

112
00:07:32,004 --> 00:07:36,516
And she has been killed with the Bible in hands, you know?

113
00:07:36,709 --> 00:07:38,816
We are aware of who are the masterminds..

114
00:07:38,816 --> 00:07:43,278
And Is not it possible to gather enough proof? Just one of them has been indicted,

115
00:07:43,278 --> 00:07:49,061
and that is really sad, you know? We cannot accept that! Loosing friends, and....

116
00:07:49,521 --> 00:07:56,851
And they are people who are important to keep as this world's treasure! That is unacceptable!

117
00:07:58,675 --> 00:08:05,701
It is a country where a 70 year old lady, a sister, a nun died and

118
00:08:07,070 --> 00:08:10,376
It is not possible to prosecute the real masterminds?

119
00:08:10,559 --> 00:08:13,920
In the Amazon we call it a 'consortium'

120
00:08:14,675 --> 00:08:17,149
Usually, people are killed by a 'consortium'

121
00:08:17,487 --> 00:08:22,352
The most well known people, those who really generate problems.

122
00:08:22,352 --> 00:08:26,972
The real troubles makers are those people who work illegally (in the Amazon).

123
00:08:26,972 --> 00:08:33,118
What they do is to create a 'consortium' between several farmers.

124
00:08:33,118 --> 00:08:35,780
They get together to pay the murderers and

125
00:08:35,780 --> 00:08:38,358
one member of the consortium is selected to

126
00:08:38,358 --> 00:08:41,201
be indicted in the case that the police actually find out what happened.

127
00:08:41,201 --> 00:08:42,745
That is what is happening there, so

128
00:08:42,745 --> 00:08:45,471
there still are lots of people being threatened.

129
00:08:45,471 --> 00:08:50,922
Things are better in some areas. But there still are too many issues.

130
00:08:51,930 --> 00:08:56,612
I think that while we activists should highlight this even more

131
00:08:57,096 --> 00:09:02,530
José Cláudio was just one of many hidden people (under threat) and a journalist decided

132
00:09:02,530 --> 00:09:06,432
to bring him to TEDx and show his face and due to this

133
00:09:06,432 --> 00:09:12,180
it was possible for us to call people's attention to his case

134
00:09:12,180 --> 00:09:14,619
and at least to arrest the murderers.

135
00:09:14,619 --> 00:09:18,225
If it was not like that he would have been just one more statistic.

136
00:09:18,225 --> 00:09:24,093
So I believe that 'evidence' brings to light what is happening.

137
00:09:24,401 --> 00:09:29,115
And, you know how It is like in this region, right?

138
00:09:29,115 --> 00:09:36,508
How do you think the local people deal with this Amazon issue,

139
00:09:36,508 --> 00:09:38,364
that involves politics, deforestation...

140
00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:45,301
The network between these people is strong and they understand what they are doing pretty well.

141
00:09:45,301 --> 00:09:50,699
They know they are protecting social and human rights

142
00:09:51,423 --> 00:09:53,807
and also the environment.

143
00:09:53,807 --> 00:10:00,090
For the most part they understand the connection between the environment and human beings.

144
00:10:00,090 --> 00:10:02,923
There is no rupture between these two things.

145
00:10:02,923 --> 00:10:06,943
It is different for farmers think, they have separeted these two things

146
00:10:06,943 --> 00:10:09,998
they face the forest as though they are trammels.

147
00:10:09,998 --> 00:10:13,232
For them to develop It is necessery to take this trammer off.

148
00:10:13,232 --> 00:10:17,142
Another thing is that most aware people

149
00:10:17,142 --> 00:10:18,889
insist on staying there

150
00:10:18,889 --> 00:10:21,613
to keep protecting their area. This is a problem.

151
00:10:21,613 --> 00:10:28,650
Not everyone agrees in protecting themselves first, you know?

152
00:10:28,650 --> 00:10:33,423
Here at camp we are in touch with lots of people from

153
00:10:33,423 --> 00:10:36,047
international organisations, people worried in promoting human rights.

154
00:10:36,047 --> 00:10:40,293
They deal with new technologies and are having,

155
00:10:40,293 --> 00:10:42,223
through this video, the opportunity to

156
00:10:42,223 --> 00:10:43,847
talk with this international community.

157
00:10:43,847 --> 00:10:47,413
How could these international organisations help to transform

158
00:10:47,413 --> 00:10:50,635
this reality that is so clear for those who work there,

159
00:10:50,635 --> 00:10:54,684
so as to make political action more effective, defending people from the violence and

160
00:10:54,684 --> 00:10:59,960
the protection against the Amazon deforestation?

161
00:11:00,529 --> 00:11:02,804
I think that they can help local organisations

162
00:11:02,804 --> 00:11:05,029
that are already there and are working in order to reduce the violence.

163
00:11:05,029 --> 00:11:08,757
They could amplify their voices,

164
00:11:08,757 --> 00:11:14,653
help people hear and pay attention to what is happening there.

165
00:11:14,653 --> 00:11:18,243
There are several local organisations.

166
00:11:18,989 --> 00:11:23,106
The 'Comissão Pastoral da Terra' (Pastoral Land Commission) is one of them

167
00:11:23,106 --> 00:11:27,860
and It could be contacted for a list of other local organisations.

168
00:11:27,860 --> 00:11:34,117
I should say this situation does not happen just in Brazil, It also happens in Peru.

169
00:11:34,656 --> 00:11:38,260
And for those who are far from Brazil,

170
00:11:38,260 --> 00:11:43,023
to gather information on internet about what is happening,

171
00:11:43,023 --> 00:11:46,666
what would be the best first step?

172
00:11:48,583 --> 00:11:53,341
There are these organisations that have the data,

173
00:11:55,426 --> 00:11:59,819
there is government data. But, it is hard to gather all the information available.

174
00:11:59,819 --> 00:12:01,198
Mainly, for those who are abroad, isn't it?

175
00:12:01,198 --> 00:12:03,900
The Brazilian Public Prosecutor also has

176
00:12:06,575 --> 00:12:09,696
a list of people who have been threatened in the region.

177
00:12:09,696 --> 00:12:16,308
The point is that there is not any campaign, national or even regional campaign

178
00:12:16,708 --> 00:12:21,395
which we can use to move in the direction of the disclosure of the information.

179
00:12:21,395 --> 00:12:28,452
I also think that organising the information would also be a way to really make a difference.