9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000


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So Marcelo, here we have the Amazon map

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that shows us the deforestation area data,

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which you are showing to us

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Can you explain what is the relationship between this information

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and the theme we are working on our at this Camp: "evidence and influence".

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How do you think these two things are related?

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What are your thoughts about these subjects?

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This map is a work made with satellite images,

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and you are able, nowadays, to measure, for example,

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how much forest we have lost.

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Despite, that we have lost so much forest,

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we still have...This is still the largest tropical forest area on the planet.

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This forest is critical for several environmental services, mainly, those linked with the regulation of the climate,

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because of the water steam produced by the forest that is then transferred across other regions

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This map also excludes some evidence

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which we cannot see on a map of this scale and

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that is the 'forest degradation'.

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This is not the total forest area deforestation, but

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it is the cutting down of some forest trees or species.

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So, 'forest degradation' is actually liked with some specific species?

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Exactly, specific species, for example, that are used in the lumber industry or the coal industry.

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Specific species (of trees) are used for the coal industries.

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We have the coal industry in Brazil and some of these are

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producing iron ore. These industries are clearing the

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remains of forest areas in some regions, mainly in Pará state region.

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Behind this destructive work,

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we have a very bad, a violent reality.

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In fact, the greatest disputation in the Amazon, today,

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Is the natural resources disputation.

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This dispute, generally, is been carried out in a violent way.

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As you can see on this map, for example,

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this is a 'protected areas' map,

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we have several protected areas and indigenous territories too.

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In these indigenous territories, the indigenous people

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have more ability to protect their areas but

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it is not the same in 'protected areas'.

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In Brazil, like in another South American countries,

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there are specific protected areas that are demarcated

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to support the survival of local communities.

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Those communities are vulnerable because

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the areas were created, but there is no governance.

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The government is not there helping these communities.

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We have a lot of different examples... I..

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I've lost one of my friends here, José Cláudio and Maria, his wife.

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She was killed because she was with him.

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Where did it happen?

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It happened in 'Nova Pichuna', in Pará state, in 2011,

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four months after his interview in TEDx,

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when he reported that he had been issued death threats.

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Why did he die? He died because he used to guard the forest,

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his piece of land, the land the government gave him.

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It was a tiny piece of land, with 100 ha (0.38 mi²).

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The lumbermen and farms in this area are looking for...

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the lumbermen are looking for the wood.

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These areas were donated by the government to the local communities for their use in sustainable practices.

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The farmers want to rent these lands for cattle,

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so they can pull together various tiny areas to make a large farm

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so they cast out the local farmers and take their properties.

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My friend Jose was denouncing this and he was killed because of this.

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José Claudio's death was felt by a lot of Brazilian people?

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Activists across the whole country were moved.

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Exactly. Because it is very hard to see threats like this one:

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the freedom of speech, the violence and intimidation.

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I've recently heard a description of a friend of mine how had participated in

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José Cláudio murders' judgement and it is

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the politics in this Brazilian region (North).

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The dynamics are so local, the problems are solved by the local inhabitants (not the police)

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and none of the other Brazilian regions know about this violence situation.

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Where I live, we do not get a lot of these dynamics.

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José Cláudio's story is a emblematic case,

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because of the fact that his speech was made at TEDx,

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this made him more well known among people,

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a public figure: his speech is on internet,

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many people have heard his story.

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Like him, we have a lot of leaders who have been murdered

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and they have continuously been murdered. Other people have been murdered after him,

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but those people are not known. So, the big question is

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how to make public the stories of those people who are dying.

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The fact of knowing though like, in the case of José Cláudio,

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whose situation was more known,

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unfortunately, it was still not possible to prevent his death.

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No. Actually, I want to ask you.

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We have information and we are able to point out the problem, but

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how could we invert the dynamics and use the information we have

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in order to do more effective activism in these Amazon regions?

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I think, actually, we have information, but

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it is not used as it should be.

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We should show this more, put more pressure on the government.

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The government knows. The 'Comissão Pastoral da Terra' (Pastoral Land Commission),

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an organisation administrated by the catholic church, has a list of people under threat.

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If you take this list you can check like this: this one is dead, this is dead, dead....

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and this is unacceptable!

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It is unacceptable. Not just the government, but also the society has to do something about it.

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When we think about 'the government', we think just about the executive government,

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but what about the judiciary? Less than 1% these murder cases were solved.

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We have to change this reality.

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Why is it happening? Are they waiting for judgments?

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Or, these cases never getting into court?

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The police never collect enough evidence of the murders,

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there is corruption in the police and in the judiciary.

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The prosecutors who accuse are not good,

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they are not able to accomplish the prosecution.

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Then, it is not possible to point to the masterminds of the crimes, or the murders.

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And It was what happened in the case of José Cláudio, right?

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Yes, it is exactly what happened in the case of José Cláudio.

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And the same thing happened in an even more well known case, that is the case of Sister Dorothy.

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In 2005, Sister (a nun) Dorothy was killed.

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A Sister... It is hard to talk about it.. because..

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She was 70 years old...

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She was a friend...

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And she has been killed with the Bible in hands, you know?

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We are aware of who are the masterminds..

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And Is not it possible to gather enough proof? Just one of them has been indicted,

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and that is really sad, you know? We cannot accept that! Loosing friends, and....

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And they are people who are important to keep as this world's treasure! That is unacceptable!

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It is a country where a 70 year old lady, a sister, a nun died and

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It is not possible to prosecute the real masterminds?

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In the Amazon we call it a 'consortium'

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Usually, people are killed by a 'consortium'

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The most well known people, those who really generate problems.

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The real troubles makers are those people who work illegally (in the Amazon).

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What they do is to create a 'consortium' between several farmers.

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They get together to pay the murderers and

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one member of the consortium is selected to

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be indicted in the case that the police actually find out what happened.

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That is what is happening there, so

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there still are lots of people being threatened.

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Things are better in some areas. But there still are too many issues.

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I think that while we activists should highlight this even more

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José Cláudio was just one of many hidden people (under threat) and a journalist decided

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to bring him to TEDx and show his face and due to this

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it was possible for us to call people's attention to his case

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and at least to arrest the murderers.

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If it was not like that he would have been just one more statistic.

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So I believe that 'evidence' brings to light what is happening.

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And, you know how It is like in this region, right?

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How do you think the local people deal with this Amazon issue,

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that involves politics, deforestation...

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The network between these people is strong and they understand what they are doing pretty well.

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They know they are protecting social and human rights

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and also the environment.

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For the most part they understand the connection between the environment and human beings.

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There is no rupture between these two things.

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It is different for farmers think, they have separeted these two things

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they face the forest as though they are trammels.

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For them to develop It is necessery to take this trammer off.

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Another thing is that most aware people

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insist on staying there

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to keep protecting their area. This is a problem.

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Not everyone agrees in protecting themselves first, you know?

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Here at camp we are in touch with lots of people from

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international organisations, people worried in promoting human rights.

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They deal with new technologies and are having,

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through this video, the opportunity to

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talk with this international community.

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How could these international organisations help to transform

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this reality that is so clear for those who work there,

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so as to make political action more effective, defending people from the violence and

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the protection against the Amazon deforestation?

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I think that they can help local organisations

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that are already there and are working in order to reduce the violence.

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They could amplify their voices,

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help people hear and pay attention to what is happening there.

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There are several local organisations.

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The 'Comissão Pastoral da Terra' (Pastoral Land Commission) is one of them

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and It could be contacted for a list of other local organisations.

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I should say this situation does not happen just in Brazil, It also happens in Peru.

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And for those who are far from Brazil,

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to gather information on internet about what is happening,

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what would be the best first step?

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There are these organisations that have the data,

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there is government data. But, it is hard to gather all the information available.

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Mainly, for those who are abroad, isn't it?

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The Brazilian Public Prosecutor also has

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a list of people who have been threatened in the region.

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The point is that there is not any campaign, national or even regional campaign

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which we can use to move in the direction of the disclosure of the information.

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I also think that organising the information would also be a way to really make a difference.