WEBVTT
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Hello, everyone.
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I'm Stacy Allison-Cassin.
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I'm a librarian at York University
in Toronto, Canada.
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I'm really happy to be here
with you all today.
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I'll just also say right off the top
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that I'm a citizen
of the Métis Nation of Ontario,
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which is a recognized
Indigenous nation in Canada.
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Also, the talk today,
I'm not going to show a lot of cool tools
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or things like that.
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It is about a conversation,
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sort of picking up on the talk
that we just heard--
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around issues, around Indigenous content,
Indigenous people, Indigenous culture
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in Wikidata and Wikibase.
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And I really want us to think about
a couple of key issues.
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One is the relationship
between the data structures
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we create and maintain,
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and issues related
to human rights and equity.
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So we should think--
We talk a lot about equity
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in terms of gaps and accessibility,
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but there are other ways
that we can also think about equity
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in our projects.
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So the ways that we can use Wikidata
as a space for activism,
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making the world better for more people.
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And modeling is hard, yet fun.
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So I want to talk about modeling--
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hopefully you want to talk
about modeling--a little bit,
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and sort of invite you
into this conversation.
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I think we are going to hold
some of the questions to the end.
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But I also want to acknowledge
that what I'm talking about today
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is not just my own thoughts,
that this is really building
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on meetings like this, where we get
to talk together about things.
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In particular, I want to call out
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the Canadian Federation
of Library Association's
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Indigenous Matters Joint Working Group
on Subject Headings and Classifications
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that is doing work intensely
on this project right now;
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also the National Indigenous Knowledges
and Language Alliance
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Data Modeling Subgroup;
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and specifically Camille Callison,
who's from the Tahltan Nation,
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at University of Manitoba;
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Dean Seeman at the University of Victoria;
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Tim Knight, who's with me
at York University;
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and Alissa Cherry,
who's at the Museum for Anthropology
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at the University of British Columbia.
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So what I want to center my talk today on
is this idea of sovereignty and nationhood
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in relation to Indigenous peoples
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and how this impacts
how we think about our data models.
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So I want to talk a little bit
about colonization.
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So for those of us
who are from colonized nations,
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we have particular ways
that we might think about
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how colonization impacts peoples and land.
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So we know that
one of the goals of colonization
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is actually to remove
the occupants of the land
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so that people can come
and either settle that land,
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they can engage
in resource extraction activities,
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they're opening up the land
for agriculture
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and other forms of habitation.
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And we know that this is not in the past,
this is ongoing today.
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We know that there are active things
happening in the world right now
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which are seeking
to remove occupants from land,
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sometimes lands they've occupied
for thousands of years,
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in order to engage in these activities.
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And we know that colonial states
engage in activities
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to assure their control over territory.
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And we heard a little bit about this
this morning in relation to language.
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So we know that languages
aren't endangered
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just through natural causes,
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that there are deliberate actions
taken by governments or nation states
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to eradicate language
in very deliberate ways,
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because language is connected
to sovereignty.
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It's connected to saying
that there is a culture
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and people are active in this culture
and occupying the space.
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When we think about how
small languages come to be small--
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So I might get a little emotional
about these issues,
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but these are the kinds of things
that are really important--
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culture deliberately being eradicated,
and people, colonial nations
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involved in acts of genocide
in various kinds of ways.
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So that's a very serious topic,
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but it does actually impact
the kind of work that we do
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and I think is a thread that runs through
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how we think about
the importance of culture
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and the way that
dominant culture is deployed
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within all kinds of cultural institutions.
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So a couple examples from Canada.
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There's many I could name,
but I'll just name a couple.
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So currently there are fights taking place
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in the province of British Columbia,
where the government of Canada
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and corporations are trying
to build pipelines
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through Indigenous territory,
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and the hereditary chiefs
of the Wet'suwet'en Nation
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does not want the pipeline built
through their territory,
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but the government is actually
arresting people who are protesting,
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even though they're on their land.
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The Indian Act in Canada was instituted
as a deliberate way
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to engage in assimilation,
so state-based assimilation tactics.
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This is again through the removal
of language and culture.
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Ceremony was outlawed,
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so practicing your traditional ceremonies.
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The traditional governance structures
for First Nations was outlawed.
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A pass system was introduced,
so people were not allowed
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to leave their reserves without a pass.
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So you think about all the ways
that those methods
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or the sovereignty of a nation
being actively worked against
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and, again, these tactics of assimilation.
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And then, of course,
many people here might know about
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the residential school system in Canada,
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which was children
being sent to boarding schools
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where it was, again,
deliberate acts of assimilation
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where you were stripped
of your language, of your clothing,
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not allowed contact with your families,
and that's very deliberate.
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So, again, going back to the keynote
we heard this morning
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about parents choosing
to pass on their language,
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well that choice is taken away
when children are sent away to school.
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So that has long-lasting
intergenerational impacts
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on the ways that families work
and on culture.
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So the Truth and Reconciliation Commission
came out with calls to action,
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some of those deliberately calling out
cultural heritage and education
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in some of these places
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where colonial practices
are actually ongoing.
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So recognizing the right to self-govern
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and to autonomy and sovereignty over land,
that's very important.
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So it also governs our relationships
between nations.
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We might use in Canada,
quite often, this idea
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of nation-to-nation relationship.
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So that recognizes that
the government of Canada is a nation,
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but within Canada
there are also multiple nations.
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So when we have a First Nation engaging
in negotiation with a government
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that's considered
a nation-to-nation relationship.
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Many Indigenous people in Canada
do not recognize Canadian citizenship.
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They do not want to be associated
with being Canadian.
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I know if I write Wikipedia articles
about Indigenous folks that I know,
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one thing I have heard repeatedly is,
"Do not say I'm from Canada."
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"I don't want to be
'so and so is an artist in Canada,'
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or 'is a Canadian'... no."
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So what does it mean
when we take that person
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and we have a Wikidata item for them
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and we say that
their citizenship is Canadian?
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You know, that's actually
an act of violence against that--
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I mean, it sounds very serious, but it is,
because we are saying that person,
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who is actively working to resist
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the colonial system,
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and then we are saying in their data,
"Oh, but they're Canadian."
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"Well, I want to be able to run
a SPARQL query against them
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and bring up all the Canadians."
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Well, that would be useful,
but what does it mean
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when we replicate
these kinds of things in our data?
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So recognizing Indigenous sovereignty
is an important aspect
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in creating a more just
and equitable world,
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even though we might not get
the kinds of data that we might want.
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So if we're going to take
the strategic areas
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of knowledge equity seriously,
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we also need to pay attention
to the structures in our data.
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So again, we tend to think along gaps
like the gender gap,
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visibility gaps, small language
and marginalized communities,
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but when we think about
why are these communities small,
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or what does it mean
when we have these gaps?
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And we have to, again,
think about the structures
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and how we're conceptualized in our data
and how we're treating...
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Just like the example of the photograph.
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Again, why is that so bothersome
to the Sámi community?
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It's because, yet again,
culture being appropriated,
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them being misnamed.
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Or again, and we see in Canada,
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a return to the original
traditional names of territory.
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And so all of these things
are really important,
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and we have to think about
how we can center these practices
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in the work that we're doing.
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So again, I just want to emphasize
that belonging to a nation
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is not the same thing
as belonging to an ethnicity.
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I know sometimes that we think
about those things as being the same,
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but they're not.
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So again, it's thinking
about the relationship
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between nationhood and nationality,
belonging to a nation and citizenship,
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and the governant structure
that goes with that is different
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than the ways we think about ethnicity.
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And again, just to stress again
that it then becomes a conversation
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around relationships between nations,
governance, land, and people.
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So if we think about colonization
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as an act of removing people
from their land,
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or reducing their sovereignty
over the territory they occupy,
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how can we, in the data that we produce,
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recognize that these nations
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are occupying a particular spot.
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If we aren't talking about nationhood
and we talk about a territory
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then we make those people
absent from that territory,
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whether they're presently there or not.
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So again, another thing to think about
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is how we document occupation
over time, as well,
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because one of the things
that you hear about,
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especially in reference
to places like North America,
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is that, "Well, no one was there.
It was a vast wilderness of unoccupied..."
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Well, that's not true.
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People have been living in North America
for thousands of years.
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I have ancestors who have been living
in Canada, or the area of Canada,
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for thousands of years.
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So it's not an unoccupied space
that people just came in and discovered.
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So this concept of discovery is helpful
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in the ways that we think about
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the colonial practices.
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So I'm going to talk
a little bit about myself,
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because I feel like I can.
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Again, it's about being respectful.
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I don't want to talk about
someone else's nations,
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I'm going to talk about
my own a little bit.
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So this is a picture of me and my dad.
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So my grandmother,
my dad's mum, is a Métis.
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And, just again, in reference
to the conversation this morning,
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she did not teach her language to my dad.
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She was living away from her community,
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and it was definitely a thing
where you were not...
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She did not want to talk about
being Indigenous.
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That was not a safe thing to be
in the community that she was in.
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I'm from Thunder Bay, Ontario.
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I don't know how many people
we have here... probably not.
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Anyway, it's not known--
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It's known for having
pretty serious problems with racism.
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And so that was her choice.
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This is a picture of...
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The young man standing in the back there
is my great grandfather.
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And the document on the far side there,
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I just want to talk about the ways that...
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So you have this problem of Indigeneity,
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or these kinds of culture
being suppressed in various ways.
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But in the process of culture recovery
or in resurgence
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or wanting to be connected
with a particular nation,
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sometimes that becomes
a form of documentation.
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So how do you prove you're a member?
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There's saying you have
connections to the community,
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but a lot of that
is through documentation.
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This document here
is The Métis Petition of 1840,
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from the Penetanguishene area,
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and it's around when treaties
were being signed in that area.
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Settlers were starting to come in,
they wanted the land,
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so they had to have a treaty
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so they could move
all the Indigenous people,
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First Nations people, to an area
to free up the land for settlers.
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That's a very crude way
of talking about it.
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And this document is actually signed
by some of my ancestors.
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It's a letter to the Lieutenant-Governor
at the time, saying, "Wait a minute."
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Because it's called
The Half-Breed Petition.
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So they're saying, "Wait a minute.
We are native also.
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We should be included."
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Because they called it "Indian presence";
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they wanted to be included
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in the negotiations that were going on.
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So this became
a very important document presently,
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in showing that this community
was expressing an Indigenous identity.
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Because the Métis were not recognized
by the government
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as an Indigenous people
until fairly recently.
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So all of this is about being
outside of those negotiations.
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And so one thing about this document
is it's in a collection,
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a digital collection.
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It took me forever to find it,
because it's just a scan of a microfiche.
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So it was just like a...
There's nothing, there's no way--
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So this is this super-important document,
lots of people want to see it,
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and there's no metadata
in this collection that connects--
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There's actually just zero metadata.
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It's just like a long roll of things
related to correspondence
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related to the British government
at that time.
00:14:36.689 --> 00:14:39.664
So when we think about how also
we can surface documents
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in a particular way
that are important to recognizing,
00:14:42.715 --> 00:14:46.943
again, the existence
of Indigenous people in particular areas
00:14:46.943 --> 00:14:49.444
is another thing
that becomes really important.
00:14:51.464 --> 00:14:54.340
So again, this is talking about
my own nation.
00:14:54.340 --> 00:14:59.930
When we talk about ways that we might
conceptualize nationhood or territories,
00:14:59.930 --> 00:15:04.464
this is actually a map
of what the Métis Nation of Ontario
00:15:04.464 --> 00:15:06.473
has designated as harvesting territory.
00:15:06.473 --> 00:15:11.504
So that's actually related
to hunting and fishing rights,
00:15:11.504 --> 00:15:15.209
and that was negotiated between
the government of Ontario
00:15:15.209 --> 00:15:17.374
and the Métis Nation of Ontario.
00:15:17.374 --> 00:15:23.873
The Captains of the Hunt are the people
who oversee that all of these activities.
00:15:23.873 --> 00:15:27.232
So although I live in Toronto,
which is actually down here,
00:15:27.232 --> 00:15:30.746
this would be considered
my traditional harvesting territory
00:15:30.746 --> 00:15:34.611
because that's where
I can tie my ancestors to.
00:15:34.611 --> 00:15:37.584
So when we think about how we might
model that kind of thing,
00:15:37.584 --> 00:15:40.222
when we're thinking, again,
about structures in our data,
00:15:40.222 --> 00:15:46.469
we need to recognize community roles
that also have ties to territory.
00:15:47.839 --> 00:15:52.526
And then I'm going to talk
a little bit about--
00:15:52.526 --> 00:15:54.431
Again, you don't have--
00:15:54.431 --> 00:15:58.568
Not all Indigenous peoples agree
on what is someone's territory.
00:15:58.568 --> 00:16:02.028
So there are disputes
between different things.
00:16:02.028 --> 00:16:07.322
So recently the Métis National Council
00:16:07.322 --> 00:16:12.713
has decided that this is the map
of the Métis Nation in Canada.
00:16:12.713 --> 00:16:17.957
This does not recognize
the Métis people in British Columbia
00:16:17.957 --> 00:16:21.543
or in some parts of Ontario,
so these other places are saying,
00:16:21.543 --> 00:16:23.438
"Wait a minute.
We don't agree with this map."
00:16:23.438 --> 00:16:29.821
So one of the things is who decides
or how are we going to negotiate between--
00:16:29.821 --> 00:16:34.355
Is it actually allowing
for multiplicity of...
00:16:35.665 --> 00:16:40.174
And then the First Nations people
whose land, this territory, covers,
00:16:40.174 --> 00:16:42.405
were like, "Well, you didn't ask us
about this map."
00:16:42.405 --> 00:16:46.454
So there is also thinking about the ways
that we need to negotiate
00:16:46.454 --> 00:16:50.721
between claims on territory,
how we might document those claims,
00:16:50.721 --> 00:16:56.823
but also allowing for recognition
that there is overlapping,
00:16:56.823 --> 00:17:00.923
kinds of ways that we consider territory.
00:17:03.859 --> 00:17:07.737
So I just wanted to post this quote,
00:17:07.737 --> 00:17:13.578
because I think it's a really good way
of talking about how colonization,
00:17:13.578 --> 00:17:18.343
we don't notice it, because it is,
in many places, the dominant culture.
00:17:18.343 --> 00:17:21.701
It's the dominant way
we think about the world.
00:17:21.701 --> 00:17:24.701
We don't necessarily notice
these kinds of things.
00:17:24.701 --> 00:17:30.815
So again, when we think about
the perspectives of the marginalized,
00:17:30.815 --> 00:17:33.385
so again, when we're talking
with all of us,
00:17:33.385 --> 00:17:35.750
when we think about our data models
and our data structures,
00:17:35.750 --> 00:17:39.825
how do we allow for properties or items
00:17:39.825 --> 00:17:42.405
that maybe we don't think are important
00:17:42.405 --> 00:17:46.491
but are actually vitally important
for all kinds of marginalized communities?
00:17:46.491 --> 00:17:48.361
And this goes beyond
Indigenous communities.
00:17:48.361 --> 00:17:50.776
This speaks to all kinds
of marginalized people.
00:17:51.838 --> 00:17:57.442
And so we have to think about the ways
that we can use our data structures
00:17:57.442 --> 00:18:01.013
to address some of these issues
00:18:01.013 --> 00:18:05.022
and to become a space
where we actually are working for justice
00:18:05.022 --> 00:18:07.952
within our data structures.
00:18:09.850 --> 00:18:13.810
Okay. I don't know how I'm doing for time.
I forgot to put my timer on.
00:18:13.810 --> 00:18:17.124
Oh my goodness! Okay!
(laughing) I've just got five minutes!
00:18:17.124 --> 00:18:18.857
So I'm going
to speed through some examples.
00:18:18.857 --> 00:18:22.210
Now I do have real-life examples.
00:18:22.210 --> 00:18:27.716
I'm working with, as part of a member
of the CFLA Indigenous Matters Group
00:18:27.716 --> 00:18:29.428
and NIKLA, we're working
on the development
00:18:29.428 --> 00:18:32.705
of a First Nations, Métis,
and Inuit ontology.
00:18:32.705 --> 00:18:37.169
We have developed this list,
this is just a little sample,
00:18:37.169 --> 00:18:39.287
of all the kinds of things
that we're collecting
00:18:39.287 --> 00:18:42.214
of what we're calling community names.
00:18:42.214 --> 00:18:45.738
We had a soft launch
of this data on June 21st
00:18:45.738 --> 00:18:47.874
for National Indigenous Peoples Day
00:18:49.304 --> 00:18:52.212
and we are hopefully
going to be deploying this
00:18:52.212 --> 00:18:55.147
within Wikibase, is the plan.
00:18:55.147 --> 00:18:56.637
We have some stuff in there,
00:18:56.637 --> 00:19:00.446
but I think we're going to have
to just wipe it and start over
00:19:00.446 --> 00:19:02.618
because we're really--
00:19:02.618 --> 00:19:05.574
We've come to realize where a part
of our work really lies
00:19:05.574 --> 00:19:06.850
is in the data modeling.
00:19:06.850 --> 00:19:09.211
So we really need to be thinking
about our data structures
00:19:09.211 --> 00:19:12.887
and how we are going
to conceptualize that data
00:19:12.887 --> 00:19:17.117
within the Wikibase environment.
00:19:17.117 --> 00:19:19.691
Part of this is also related to Wikidata.
00:19:19.691 --> 00:19:24.380
So I've kind of been ignoring
some parts of Wikidata
00:19:24.380 --> 00:19:28.359
because I kind of don't want
to have to deal with some of it.
00:19:28.359 --> 00:19:30.820
(chuckling) I'll just be really honest.
00:19:30.820 --> 00:19:34.234
So there is "nation" in Wikidata.
00:19:34.234 --> 00:19:39.943
So one of the questions I would have
is if you have Ojibwe, is that an ethnic--
00:19:39.943 --> 00:19:41.587
Currently I think it's an ethnic group--
00:19:41.587 --> 00:19:44.558
Is it an ethnic group? Is it a nation?
Is it both those things?
00:19:44.558 --> 00:19:46.922
Do we have both those things
at the same time?
00:19:46.922 --> 00:19:51.401
I think that's a question I have not yet
figured out how to answer.
00:19:51.401 --> 00:19:54.740
We do have something called
"native land" in Wikidata.
00:19:54.740 --> 00:19:57.625
When I first looked at it
a couple days ago, maybe last week,
00:19:57.625 --> 00:19:59.034
I kind of stumbled on it,
00:19:59.034 --> 00:20:02.378
and it actually was an instance
of an isolated human settlement
00:20:02.378 --> 00:20:08.218
so maybe not the best way to describe
something that is called "native land."
00:20:08.218 --> 00:20:13.710
So again, when we're thinking about
maybe it's good to check in with somebody.
00:20:13.710 --> 00:20:16.340
I want to just show this example
of "Anishinaabe."
00:20:16.340 --> 00:20:21.409
So Anishinaabe, here it's an ethnic group.
I would say it's also a nation.
00:20:21.409 --> 00:20:23.412
But it's a nation
that also contains other nations,
00:20:23.412 --> 00:20:25.793
so it's actually based on
kind of a language group,
00:20:25.793 --> 00:20:31.075
but contains the nations
of Ojibwe, Ottawa,
00:20:31.075 --> 00:20:33.765
and a number of other groups within that.
00:20:33.765 --> 00:20:36.625
So how do we think about,
I don't want to say hierarchy,
00:20:36.625 --> 00:20:38.130
but there's a way of--
00:20:38.130 --> 00:20:40.519
A relationship has to be designated there.
00:20:40.519 --> 00:20:45.589
Also, one of the things in that item
is a link to the official website
00:20:45.589 --> 00:20:46.983
for the Anishinabek Nation.
00:20:46.983 --> 00:20:50.980
The ethnic group
doesn't have an official website,
00:20:50.980 --> 00:20:56.626
so do we have Anishinabek Nation
as an organization,
00:20:56.626 --> 00:20:59.425
and then we have a nation,
and then we have...?
00:20:59.425 --> 00:21:01.423
So there's a lot
of modeling questions that I have
00:21:01.423 --> 00:21:03.809
around how we might want to work this out.
00:21:03.809 --> 00:21:08.895
This is another example
of an archival item.
00:21:08.895 --> 00:21:14.351
In the item record for this document
there's no actual reference
00:21:14.351 --> 00:21:19.665
to Cherokee peoples
or how this information was collected,
00:21:19.665 --> 00:21:23.793
so we might want to think about
how we relate some of these documents,
00:21:23.793 --> 00:21:28.454
especially when they come
from a colonial government,
00:21:28.454 --> 00:21:31.702
how they are documented in Wikidata.
00:21:32.632 --> 00:21:34.851
And I just wanted to close
with this quote,
00:21:34.851 --> 00:21:39.712
which is this idea of solidarity--
how do we stand in solidarity
00:21:39.712 --> 00:21:44.134
with all kinds of communities
in our larger community?
00:21:44.134 --> 00:21:49.437
How do we recognize, again, these places
where we really need to be sensitive,
00:21:50.197 --> 00:21:53.752
and also recognizing that
some of these issues,
00:21:53.752 --> 00:21:56.634
for some communities,
are vitally important
00:21:56.634 --> 00:21:59.539
and it really does matter
how someone is called
00:21:59.539 --> 00:22:02.807
or how someone is conceptualized
within our data
00:22:02.807 --> 00:22:05.724
because it does matter what you see,
00:22:05.724 --> 00:22:11.144
but also how it impacts
the larger internet and world around us.
00:22:11.144 --> 00:22:13.033
And I'll close with that. Thanks.
00:22:13.033 --> 00:22:14.944
(applause)
00:22:18.744 --> 00:22:20.943
(moderator) Thank you very much, Stacy.
00:22:20.943 --> 00:22:24.315
I invite back all of our presenters.
00:22:25.595 --> 00:22:29.233
So, if there are any questions,
we've got lots of time.
00:22:29.233 --> 00:22:33.390
We made them cramp a bit
their presentation
00:22:33.390 --> 00:22:39.694
in order to let you express
your opinions or your questions, etc.
00:22:39.694 --> 00:22:42.576
Also, thank you, Jon, for your work.
00:22:45.986 --> 00:22:47.548
Yeah, there's a question there.
00:22:48.294 --> 00:22:51.912
(Dragan Espenschied)
Hi, I'm Dragan, from Rhizome,
00:22:51.912 --> 00:22:57.495
and I wanted to ask Stacy
what is your view or experience
00:22:57.495 --> 00:23:02.731
with data itself being kind of colonial?
00:23:02.731 --> 00:23:06.299
Because sometimes
I have the impression that
00:23:06.299 --> 00:23:10.823
especially the things that seem ambiguous
are reflected in data
00:23:10.823 --> 00:23:12.643
with the most descriptions,
00:23:12.643 --> 00:23:16.785
and the idea of data to remove ambiguity
00:23:16.785 --> 00:23:20.708
is kind of something that has struck me.
00:23:20.708 --> 00:23:25.190
And I wonder, especially when you see
these disputed territories--
00:23:25.190 --> 00:23:28.921
maybe no one ever cared about it before,
but now you have to describe it
00:23:28.921 --> 00:23:30.500
and then suddenly it becomes a problem.
00:23:30.500 --> 00:23:32.435
So what is your...?
00:23:32.435 --> 00:23:35.157
Yeah, I feel like this is my life.
So I was a cataloger, for--
00:23:35.157 --> 00:23:36.764
I don't know if anybody else here is a--
00:23:36.764 --> 00:23:38.885
As you know, I'm a librarian.
I worked as a cataloger.
00:23:38.885 --> 00:23:40.826
You can never get it right,
it always feels like.
00:23:40.826 --> 00:23:45.791
You're always going to be...
There's no right answer, in a way.
00:23:45.791 --> 00:23:46.984
There's only attempts.
00:23:46.984 --> 00:23:51.520
But I do think that one of the issues
is that all of our structures
00:23:51.520 --> 00:23:55.593
that we work with are colonial
and express power in different ways.
00:23:55.593 --> 00:23:59.018
So there's no way that we...
00:23:59.958 --> 00:24:05.581
We can't really "decolonize,"
I will say, many of our systems,
00:24:05.581 --> 00:24:07.383
because that's just the way they are.
00:24:07.383 --> 00:24:13.305
We we think about museums,
or libraries, or even sets of data,
00:24:13.305 --> 00:24:16.767
that it's built into the code
in some ways.
00:24:16.767 --> 00:24:19.826
So where are points
for resistance and recognition
00:24:19.826 --> 00:24:22.341
within some of those systems,
and how do we work to change,
00:24:22.341 --> 00:24:24.959
make systemic change from the beginning,
00:24:24.959 --> 00:24:27.877
when we think about ways
that we start off?
00:24:27.877 --> 00:24:32.971
There's, I don't know, it's like a scale
00:24:32.971 --> 00:24:36.797
of better and worse things.
00:24:36.797 --> 00:24:42.064
But I think if we're operating
from a point of consultation, of respect,
00:24:42.064 --> 00:24:47.686
of recognizing human rights
when we take those things into account,
00:24:47.686 --> 00:24:50.971
and how can we push
our organizations to do better.
00:24:50.971 --> 00:24:54.277
So one of the reasons that we started
with having this ontology
00:24:54.277 --> 00:24:57.852
is because it's actually to replace
Library of Congress terminology
00:24:57.852 --> 00:24:59.018
in our libraries,
00:24:59.018 --> 00:25:02.362
because in Canada we often use
Library of Congress terms.
00:25:02.362 --> 00:25:05.324
Those terms were developed
for Congress in the United States.
00:25:05.324 --> 00:25:07.440
They often don't fit
the Canadian experience.
00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:11.141
Like the heading for Indigenous people,
for First Nations people,
00:25:11.141 --> 00:25:13.712
is "Indians of North America" still.
00:25:13.712 --> 00:25:16.478
And we have little hope that
the government of the United States
00:25:16.478 --> 00:25:18.509
is really vested in changing those terms.
00:25:18.509 --> 00:25:19.582
(laughter)
00:25:19.582 --> 00:25:20.952
So it's part of--
00:25:20.952 --> 00:25:22.665
Given that, what can we do?
00:25:22.665 --> 00:25:26.542
And it is to develop our own ontology
00:25:26.542 --> 00:25:28.375
that people can use
to replace those terms.
00:25:28.375 --> 00:25:32.221
So I don't know if that's a great answer,
but I think there isn't--
00:25:32.221 --> 00:25:34.427
We're always in those structures,
00:25:34.427 --> 00:25:37.909
so what can we do
at various kinds of points?
00:25:42.736 --> 00:25:46.061
(woman) I have a question for all of you.
00:25:46.061 --> 00:25:51.945
How do you deal with pushback
when someone might say,
00:25:52.602 --> 00:25:56.648
"Well, this is the answer
in a Western peer-reviewed journal.
00:25:56.648 --> 00:26:03.720
This is how they called the people of 1890
and you're saying that this is inaccurate,
00:26:03.720 --> 00:26:06.457
but where do you have your proof
when here it is
00:26:06.457 --> 00:26:08.816
in a Western peer-reviewed journal?"
00:26:08.816 --> 00:26:11.078
How do you deal
with that kind of pushback?
00:26:12.242 --> 00:26:13.809
(moderator) Who wants to go first?
00:26:13.809 --> 00:26:14.894
(laughter)
00:26:14.894 --> 00:26:17.940
(woman) I'm not sure
which one of us is less likely to talk.
00:26:17.940 --> 00:26:22.849
(chuckling) Yeah.
This is a horrible question.
00:26:22.849 --> 00:26:27.835
Actually, it's a wonderful question
at the same time.
00:26:27.835 --> 00:26:30.735
But, for instance,
if you look at the Sámi...
00:26:30.735 --> 00:26:32.586
I recommend each
and every one of you today
00:26:32.586 --> 00:26:35.322
to go look at the Wikipedias
and look at the different ones
00:26:35.322 --> 00:26:37.499
and see what they call the Sámi.
00:26:37.499 --> 00:26:40.623
The Sámi call themselves Sámi--
sápmelaččat in Northern Sámi,
00:26:40.623 --> 00:26:43.141
sápmelaččat in Skolt Sámi.
00:26:43.141 --> 00:26:48.087
In the Spanish Wikipedia it's lapp,
(chuckles sarcastically)
00:26:48.087 --> 00:26:51.054
and lapp is a horribly racist word.
00:26:51.054 --> 00:26:55.947
And there is a huge discussion about this
in the Spanish and Catalan Wikipedias
00:26:55.947 --> 00:27:00.272
about what you can say--
"Well, Sámi's not in our language."
00:27:00.272 --> 00:27:03.065
And I know it's been used in--
and I used to live in Barcelona.
00:27:03.065 --> 00:27:05.464
I know it's used in Catalan, "Sámi."
00:27:05.464 --> 00:27:08.498
And the Wikipedias have decided
00:27:08.498 --> 00:27:11.365
they're going to use
the racist word instead.
00:27:11.365 --> 00:27:16.885
Because it's not in any
peer-reviewed article somewhere.
00:27:16.885 --> 00:27:18.218
So...
00:27:19.778 --> 00:27:22.554
Yes, so... (chuckles)
00:27:22.554 --> 00:27:25.278
But, I mean, we have
this session here today,
00:27:25.278 --> 00:27:29.515
and part of it is we invite the community
to think about these things
00:27:29.515 --> 00:27:31.424
and how we can...
00:27:31.424 --> 00:27:33.175
What do you think we should do?
00:27:33.175 --> 00:27:35.866
Part of it is what is
the appropriate evidence?
00:27:35.866 --> 00:27:37.628
If it's used in one peer-reviewed journal,
00:27:37.628 --> 00:27:40.436
do we have to collect evidence
somewhere else?
00:27:40.436 --> 00:27:42.635
How do we encourage the community
00:27:42.635 --> 00:27:47.334
to think about their responsibility
in this space?
00:27:47.334 --> 00:27:52.143
And it's maybe a long process,
but when things are--
00:27:52.143 --> 00:27:54.492
I think that's something,
especially in Commons,
00:27:54.492 --> 00:27:56.208
when we have images,
I know there are lots
00:27:56.208 --> 00:27:58.567
for North America
that are really problematic
00:27:58.567 --> 00:28:01.276
and people will say,
"Well, it's public domain."
00:28:01.999 --> 00:28:07.025
So I think that's a really good...
I don't have a quick or easy answer.
00:28:07.025 --> 00:28:08.978
(woman) We'll need
to talk about that, yeah.
00:28:08.978 --> 00:28:12.624
Yeah, I would like to be
a little bit optimistic with Wikidata,
00:28:12.624 --> 00:28:15.059
because, well, I like Wikidata.
00:28:15.059 --> 00:28:21.466
I think that the perfect side of it
is that we can express different views.
00:28:21.466 --> 00:28:27.140
We can display
the peer-reviewed terminology,
00:28:27.140 --> 00:28:30.951
but we can contest it with other evidence.
00:28:30.951 --> 00:28:37.059
So I think this is... Well, it relieves
the responsibility to the respondent,
00:28:37.059 --> 00:28:40.463
but still it gives new opportunities.
00:28:46.403 --> 00:28:51.701
[inaudible crosstalk]
00:28:53.021 --> 00:28:54.711
Sorry.
00:28:54.711 --> 00:28:59.252
Okay, let's try this one.
Sorry, sorry about that.
00:28:59.252 --> 00:29:02.039
(man) So, two things
I was going to mention,
00:29:02.039 --> 00:29:06.403
but one of them is the one you just said,
that for situations where,
00:29:06.403 --> 00:29:09.656
like you spoke about
the Canadian citizenship problem,
00:29:09.656 --> 00:29:15.842
that can certainly be entered as,
you could say, "He's Canadian,
00:29:15.842 --> 00:29:19.582
claimed by the Canadian government,"
or whatever this is,
00:29:19.582 --> 00:29:22.842
and have a different thing that says
his citizenship is something else,
00:29:22.842 --> 00:29:27.452
or even unknown, or even no value
if we don't have a nation...
00:29:28.402 --> 00:29:31.174
if the nation is not allowed
by Wikidata in there,
00:29:31.174 --> 00:29:32.424
which is a different discussion
00:29:32.424 --> 00:29:35.456
that I guess you probably
will have to have at some point.
00:29:35.456 --> 00:29:38.131
So this is perfectly doable in that sense.
00:29:38.131 --> 00:29:40.090
The person's probably
still going to be unhappy
00:29:40.090 --> 00:29:42.367
that the Canadian citizenship
is listed at all,
00:29:42.367 --> 00:29:43.907
but at least you can show them that...
00:29:43.907 --> 00:29:50.092
So it's listed as not a universal truth,
but only as one of the possible opinions.
00:29:50.665 --> 00:29:52.678
Another thing I wanted
to bring up for a moment
00:29:52.678 --> 00:29:54.802
is something I was talking to Kimberli--
00:29:54.802 --> 00:29:57.978
it was kind of run through
through the slides
00:29:57.978 --> 00:30:00.788
because of the time concerns.
00:30:02.188 --> 00:30:05.940
This part was easier in the sense that,
okay, if you have two different things
00:30:05.940 --> 00:30:08.747
and you can put
the two things there and it's okay,
00:30:08.747 --> 00:30:09.935
but what happens for cases
00:30:09.935 --> 00:30:13.101
where the community does not want
this knowledge to be public at all?
00:30:19.371 --> 00:30:24.238
- Ah yeah, the Indigenous one.
- (man) Yeah.
00:30:25.813 --> 00:30:32.964
I think there is space for us
to work on privacy, sensitive data,
00:30:32.964 --> 00:30:39.747
and identifying those
and finding out ways
00:30:39.747 --> 00:30:46.637
to handle content that we find,
or the communities find, problematic.
00:30:46.637 --> 00:30:53.566
It's a large discussion,
and it has a lot of legal aspects.
00:30:53.566 --> 00:30:55.997
It has a lot of ethical aspects,
00:30:55.997 --> 00:31:02.636
and it ties to copyright as well
and the ownership of the content.
00:31:03.092 --> 00:31:07.564
So, well, lots of things
to say about that.
00:31:07.564 --> 00:31:11.990
Yeah, and I will also say
that you just-- [inaudible]
00:31:11.990 --> 00:31:15.328
Copyright regimes that
we are familiar with are colonial.
00:31:15.328 --> 00:31:20.800
There's actually a huge friction
between copyright regimes
00:31:20.800 --> 00:31:25.223
that are used in most countries
and traditional knowledge.
00:31:25.223 --> 00:31:28.227
I think we have to maybe
be comfortable sometimes
00:31:28.227 --> 00:31:30.023
with deleting content,
00:31:30.023 --> 00:31:32.284
even that we say,
"Well, it's public domain."
00:31:32.284 --> 00:31:35.140
Well, public domain,
it does not necessarily have a meaning
00:31:35.140 --> 00:31:38.598
in an Indigenous community
or in certain communities.
00:31:38.598 --> 00:31:43.703
So what does it mean when, again,
when we go back to this idea
00:31:43.703 --> 00:31:46.187
of sovereignty
and recognizing human rights
00:31:46.187 --> 00:31:47.298
when we say--
00:31:47.298 --> 00:31:52.184
I was at a meeting that
the Canadian government was sponsoring
00:31:52.184 --> 00:31:55.794
on copyright regime in Canada
and Indigenous knowledge,
00:31:55.794 --> 00:32:00.717
and someone said--and it just really
has stayed with me since that meeting--
00:32:00.717 --> 00:32:03.047
"Human rights before property rights."
00:32:04.017 --> 00:32:07.893
Again, if we are taking human rights
as our prime motivator
00:32:07.893 --> 00:32:09.344
and prime way that we're thinking,
00:32:09.344 --> 00:32:12.065
then some of these other questions
become easier to answer,
00:32:12.065 --> 00:32:17.433
because we have to value humans
in a way, all humans.
00:32:17.433 --> 00:32:20.701
So we can't say
that their property rights,
00:32:20.701 --> 00:32:23.331
or something like public domain,
should come before that.
00:32:23.331 --> 00:32:24.347
And it's hard.
00:32:24.347 --> 00:32:27.931
It's hard for many of us who are
all about access to things,
00:32:27.931 --> 00:32:29.292
access to documents,
00:32:29.292 --> 00:32:31.716
because it's against
what we feel like we should do.
00:32:31.716 --> 00:32:35.371
But in some ways I think
that's the direction
00:32:35.371 --> 00:32:37.408
for certain kinds of content,
00:32:37.408 --> 00:32:43.660
because a lot of things were collected
by anthropologists, for example,
00:32:43.660 --> 00:32:46.781
and some of those things--
books or photographs--
00:32:46.781 --> 00:32:50.491
are now in "public domain,"
and uploaded into Commons.
00:32:51.661 --> 00:32:54.299
(moderator) Okay, so our session is over.
00:32:54.299 --> 00:32:57.975
There was one more question
from that gentleman from the back, but...
00:32:57.975 --> 00:33:00.002
- (man) That's fine.
- (moderator) Okay, sorry.
00:33:00.002 --> 00:33:03.038
I really apologize for this.
So, thank you.
00:33:03.768 --> 00:33:05.466
We'll be back tomorrow, so.
00:33:05.466 --> 00:33:10.161
We have a meetup tomorrow,
at 11:30, I think.
00:33:10.161 --> 00:33:12.779
If you want to talk more
about Indigenous issues, come on out.
00:33:14.049 --> 00:33:16.030
(moderator) So... yeah!
00:33:16.030 --> 00:33:18.102
(applause)