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Hello, everyone.
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I'm Stacy Allison-Cassin.
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I'm a librarian at York University
in Toronto, Canada.
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I'm really happy to be here
with you all today.
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I'll just also say right off the top
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that I'm a citizen
of the Métis Nation of Ontario,
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which is a recognized
Indigenous nation in Canada.
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Also, the talk today,
I'm not going to show a lot of cool tools
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or things like that.
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It is about a conversation,
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sort of picking up on the talk
that we just heard--
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around issues, around Indigenous content,
Indigenous people, Indigenous culture
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in Wikidata and Wikibase.
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And I really want us to think about
a couple of key issues.
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One is the relationship
between the data structures
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we create and maintain,
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and issues related
to human rights and equity.
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So we should think--
We talk a lot about equity
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in terms of gaps and accessibility,
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but there are other ways
that we can also think about equity
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in our projects.
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So the ways that we can use Wikidata
as a space for activism,
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making the world better for more people.
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And modeling is hard, yet fun.
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So I want to talk about modeling--
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hopefully you want to talk
about modeling--a little bit,
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and sort of invite you
into this conversation.
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I think we are going to hold
some of the questions to the end.
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But I also want to acknowledge
that what I'm talking about today
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is not just my own thoughts,
that this is really building
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on meetings like this, where we get
to talk together about things.
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In particular, I want to call out
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the Canadian Federation
of Library Association's
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Indigenous Matters Joint Working Group
on Subject Headings and Classifications
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that is doing work intensely
on this project right now;
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also the National Indigenous Knowledges
and Language Alliance
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Data Modeling Subgroup;
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and specifically Camille Callison,
who's from the Tahltan Nation,
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at University of Manitoba;
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Dean Seeman at the University of Victoria;
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Tim Knight, who's with me
at York University;
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and Alissa Cherry,
who's at the Museum for Anthropology
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at the University of British Columbia.
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So what I want to center my talk today on
is this idea of sovereignty and nationhood
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in relation to Indigenous peoples
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and how this impacts
how we think about our data models.
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So I want to talk a little bit
about colonization.
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So for those of us
who are from colonized nations,
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we have particular ways
that we might think about
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how colonization impacts peoples and land.
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So we know that
one of the goals of colonization
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is actually to remove
the occupants of the land
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so that people can come
and either settle that land,
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they can engage
in resource extraction activities,
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they're opening up the land
for agriculture
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and other forms of habitation.
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And we know that this is not in the past,
this is ongoing today.
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We know that there are active things
happening in the world right now
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which are seeking
to remove occupants from land,
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sometimes lands they've occupied
for thousands of years,
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in order to engage in these activities.
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And we know that colonial states
engage in activities
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to assure their control over territory.
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And we heard a little bit about this
this morning in relation to language.
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So we know that languages
aren't endangered
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just through natural causes,
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that there are deliberate actions
taken by governments or nation states
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to eradicate language
in very deliberate ways,
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because language is connected
to sovereignty.
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It's connected to saying
that there is a culture
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and people are active in this culture
and occupying the space.
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When we think about how
small languages come to be small--
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So I might get a little emotional
about these issues,
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but these are the kinds of things
that are really important--
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culture deliberately being eradicated,
and people, colonial nations
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involved in acts of genocide
in various kinds of ways.
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So that's a very serious topic,
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but it does actually impact
the kind of work that we do
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and I think is a thread that runs through
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how we think about
the importance of culture
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and the way that
dominant culture is deployed
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within all kinds of cultural institutions.
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So a couple examples from Canada.
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There's many I could name,
but I'll just name a couple.
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So currently there are fights taking place
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in the province of British Columbia,
where the government of Canada
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and corporations are trying
to build pipelines
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through Indigenous territory,
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and the hereditary chiefs
of the Wet'suwet'en Nation
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does not want the pipeline built
through their territory,
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but the government is actually
arresting people who are protesting,
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even though they're on their land.
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The Indian Act in Canada was instituted
as a deliberate way
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to engage in assimilation,
so state-based assimilation tactics.
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This is again through the removal
of language and culture.
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Ceremony was outlawed,
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so practicing your traditional ceremonies.
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The traditional governance structures
for First Nations was outlawed.
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A pass system was introduced,
so people were not allowed
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to leave their reserves without a pass.
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So you think about all the ways
that those methods
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or the sovereignty of a nation
being actively worked against
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and, again, these tactics of assimilation.
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And then, of course,
many people here might know about
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the residential school system in Canada,
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which was children
being sent to boarding schools
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where it was, again,
deliberate acts of assimilation
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where you were stripped
of your language, of your clothing,
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not allowed contact with your families,
and that's very deliberate.
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So, again, going back to the keynote
we heard this morning
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about parents choosing
to pass on their language,
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well that choice is taken away
when children are sent away to school.
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So that has long-lasting
intergenerational impacts
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on the ways that families work
and on culture.
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So the Truth and Reconciliation Commission
came out with calls to action,
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some of those deliberately calling out
cultural heritage and education
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in some of these places
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where colonial practices
are actually ongoing.
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So recognizing the right to self-govern
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and to autonomy and sovereignty over land,
that's very important.
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So it also governs our relationships
between nations.
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We might use in Canada,
quite often, this idea
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of nation-to-nation relationship.
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So that recognizes that
the government of Canada is a nation,
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but within Canada
there are also multiple nations.
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So when we have a First Nation engaging
in negotiation with a government
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that's considered
a nation-to-nation relationship.
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Many Indigenous people in Canada
do not recognize Canadian citizenship.
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They do not want to be associated
with being Canadian.
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I know if I write Wikipedia articles
about Indigenous folks that I know,
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one thing I have heard repeatedly is,
"Do not say I'm from Canada."
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"I don't want to be
'so and so is an artist in Canada,'
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or 'is a Canadian'... no."
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So what does it mean
when we take that person
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and we have a Wikidata item for them
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and we say that
their citizenship is Canadian?
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You know, that's actually
an act of violence against that--
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I mean, it sounds very serious, but it is,
because we are saying that person,
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who is actively working to resist
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the colonial system,
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and then we are saying in their data,
"Oh, but they're Canadian."
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"Well, I want to be able to run
a SPARQL query against them
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and bring up all the Canadians."
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Well, that would be useful,
but what does it mean
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when we replicate
these kinds of things in our data?
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So recognizing Indigenous sovereignty
is an important aspect
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in creating a more just
and equitable world,
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even though we might not get
the kinds of data that we might want.
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So if we're going to take
the strategic areas
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of knowledge equity seriously,
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we also need to pay attention
to the structures in our data.
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So again, we tend to think along gaps
like the gender gap,
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visibility gaps, small language
and marginalized communities,
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but when we think about
why are these communities small,
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or what does it mean
when we have these gaps?
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And we have to, again,
think about the structures
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and how we're conceptualized in our data
and how we're treating...
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Just like the example of the photograph.
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Again, why is that so bothersome
to the Sámi community?
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It's because, yet again,
culture being appropriated,
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them being misnamed.
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Or again, and we see in Canada,
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a return to the original
traditional names of territory.
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And so all of these things
are really important,
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and we have to think about
how we can center these practices
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in the work that we're doing.
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So again, I just want to emphasize
that belonging to a nation
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is not the same thing
as belonging to an ethnicity.
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I know sometimes that we think
about those things as being the same,
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but they're not.
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So again, it's thinking
about the relationship
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between nationhood and nationality,
belonging to a nation and citizenship,
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and the governant structure
that goes with that is different
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than the ways we think about ethnicity.
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And again, just to stress again
that it then becomes a conversation
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around relationships between nations,
governance, land, and people.
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So if we think about colonization
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as an act of removing people
from their land,
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or reducing their sovereignty
over the territory they occupy,
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how can we, in the data that we produce,
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recognize that these nations
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are occupying a particular spot.
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If we aren't talking about nationhood
and we talk about a territory
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then we make those people
absent from that territory,
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whether they're presently there or not.
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So again, another thing to think about
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is how we document occupation
over time, as well,
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because one of the things
that you hear about,
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especially in reference
to places like North America,
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is that, "Well, no one was there.
It was a vast wilderness of unoccupied..."
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Well, that's not true.
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People have been living in North America
for thousands of years.
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I have ancestors who have been living
in Canada, or the area of Canada,
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for thousands of years.
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So it's not an unoccupied space
that people just came in and discovered.
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So this concept of discovery is helpful
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in the ways that we think about
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the colonial practices.
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So I'm going to talk
a little bit about myself,
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because I feel like I can.
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Again, it's about being respectful.
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I don't want to talk about
someone else's nations,
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I'm going to talk about
my own a little bit.
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So this is a picture of me and my dad.
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So my grandmother,
my dad's mum, is a Métis.
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And, just again, in reference
to the conversation this morning,
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she did not teach her language to my dad.
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She was living away from her community,
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and it was definitely a thing
where you were not...
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She did not want to talk about
being Indigenous.
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That was not a safe thing to be
in the community that she was in.
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I'm from Thunder Bay, Ontario.
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I don't know how many people
we have here... probably not.
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Anyway, it's not known--
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It's known for having
pretty serious problems with racism.
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And so that was her choice.
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This is a picture of...
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The young man standing in the back there
is my great grandfather.
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And the document on the far side there,
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I just want to talk about the ways that...
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So you have this problem of Indigeneity,
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or these kinds of culture
being suppressed in various ways.
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But in the process of culture recovery
or in resurgence
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or wanting to be connected
with a particular nation,
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sometimes that becomes
a form of documentation.
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So how do you prove you're a member?
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There's saying you have
connections to the community,
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but a lot of that
is through documentation.
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This document here
is The Métis Petition of 1840,
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from the Penetanguishene area,
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and it's around when treaties
were being signed in that area.
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Settlers were starting to come in,
they wanted the land,
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so they had to have a treaty
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so they could move
all the Indigenous people,
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First Nations people, to an area
to free up the land for settlers.
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That's a very crude way
of talking about it.
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And this document is actually signed
by some of my ancestors.
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It's a letter to the Lieutenant-Governor
at the time, saying, "Wait a minute."
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Because it's called
The Half-Breed Petition.
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So they're saying, "Wait a minute.
We are native also.
241
00:13:28,396 --> 00:13:31,140
We should be included."
242
00:13:31,140 --> 00:13:33,008
Because they called it "Indian presence";
243
00:13:33,008 --> 00:13:34,561
they wanted to be included
244
00:13:34,561 --> 00:13:41,020
in the negotiations that were going on.
245
00:13:44,189 --> 00:13:46,947
So this became
a very important document presently,
246
00:13:46,947 --> 00:13:52,643
in showing that this community
was expressing an Indigenous identity.
247
00:13:52,643 --> 00:13:56,204
Because the Métis were not recognized
by the government
248
00:13:56,204 --> 00:14:02,130
as an Indigenous people
until fairly recently.
249
00:14:02,130 --> 00:14:08,340
So all of this is about being
outside of those negotiations.
250
00:14:08,340 --> 00:14:11,434
And so one thing about this document
is it's in a collection,
251
00:14:11,434 --> 00:14:12,556
a digital collection.
252
00:14:12,556 --> 00:14:17,056
It took me forever to find it,
because it's just a scan of a microfiche.
253
00:14:17,846 --> 00:14:20,597
So it was just like a...
There's nothing, there's no way--
254
00:14:20,597 --> 00:14:23,433
So this is this super-important document,
lots of people want to see it,
255
00:14:23,433 --> 00:14:27,035
and there's no metadata
in this collection that connects--
256
00:14:27,035 --> 00:14:28,551
There's actually just zero metadata.
257
00:14:28,551 --> 00:14:33,151
It's just like a long roll of things
related to correspondence
258
00:14:34,081 --> 00:14:36,689
related to the British government
at that time.
259
00:14:36,689 --> 00:14:39,664
So when we think about how also
we can surface documents
260
00:14:39,664 --> 00:14:42,715
in a particular way
that are important to recognizing,
261
00:14:42,715 --> 00:14:46,943
again, the existence
of Indigenous people in particular areas
262
00:14:46,943 --> 00:14:49,444
is another thing
that becomes really important.
263
00:14:51,464 --> 00:14:54,340
So again, this is talking about
my own nation.
264
00:14:54,340 --> 00:14:59,930
When we talk about ways that we might
conceptualize nationhood or territories,
265
00:14:59,930 --> 00:15:04,464
this is actually a map
of what the Métis Nation of Ontario
266
00:15:04,464 --> 00:15:06,473
has designated as harvesting territory.
267
00:15:06,473 --> 00:15:11,504
So that's actually related
to hunting and fishing rights,
268
00:15:11,504 --> 00:15:15,209
and that was negotiated between
the government of Ontario
269
00:15:15,209 --> 00:15:17,374
and the Métis Nation of Ontario.
270
00:15:17,374 --> 00:15:23,873
The Captains of the Hunt are the people
who oversee that all of these activities.
271
00:15:23,873 --> 00:15:27,232
So although I live in Toronto,
which is actually down here,
272
00:15:27,232 --> 00:15:30,746
this would be considered
my traditional harvesting territory
273
00:15:30,746 --> 00:15:34,611
because that's where
I can tie my ancestors to.
274
00:15:34,611 --> 00:15:37,584
So when we think about how we might
model that kind of thing,
275
00:15:37,584 --> 00:15:40,222
when we're thinking, again,
about structures in our data,
276
00:15:40,222 --> 00:15:46,469
we need to recognize community roles
that also have ties to territory.
277
00:15:47,839 --> 00:15:52,526
And then I'm going to talk
a little bit about--
278
00:15:52,526 --> 00:15:54,431
Again, you don't have--
279
00:15:54,431 --> 00:15:58,568
Not all Indigenous peoples agree
on what is someone's territory.
280
00:15:58,568 --> 00:16:02,028
So there are disputes
between different things.
281
00:16:02,028 --> 00:16:07,322
So recently the Métis National Council
282
00:16:07,322 --> 00:16:12,713
has decided that this is the map
of the Métis Nation in Canada.
283
00:16:12,713 --> 00:16:17,957
This does not recognize
the Métis people in British Columbia
284
00:16:17,957 --> 00:16:21,543
or in some parts of Ontario,
so these other places are saying,
285
00:16:21,543 --> 00:16:23,438
"Wait a minute.
We don't agree with this map."
286
00:16:23,438 --> 00:16:29,821
So one of the things is who decides
or how are we going to negotiate between--
287
00:16:29,821 --> 00:16:34,355
Is it actually allowing
for multiplicity of...
288
00:16:35,665 --> 00:16:40,174
And then the First Nations people
whose land, this territory, covers,
289
00:16:40,174 --> 00:16:42,405
were like, "Well, you didn't ask us
about this map."
290
00:16:42,405 --> 00:16:46,454
So there is also thinking about the ways
that we need to negotiate
291
00:16:46,454 --> 00:16:50,721
between claims on territory,
how we might document those claims,
292
00:16:50,721 --> 00:16:56,823
but also allowing for recognition
that there is overlapping,
293
00:16:56,823 --> 00:17:00,923
kinds of ways that we consider territory.
294
00:17:03,859 --> 00:17:07,737
So I just wanted to post this quote,
295
00:17:07,737 --> 00:17:13,578
because I think it's a really good way
of talking about how colonization,
296
00:17:13,578 --> 00:17:18,343
we don't notice it, because it is,
in many places, the dominant culture.
297
00:17:18,343 --> 00:17:21,701
It's the dominant way
we think about the world.
298
00:17:21,701 --> 00:17:24,701
We don't necessarily notice
these kinds of things.
299
00:17:24,701 --> 00:17:30,815
So again, when we think about
the perspectives of the marginalized,
300
00:17:30,815 --> 00:17:33,385
so again, when we're talking
with all of us,
301
00:17:33,385 --> 00:17:35,750
when we think about our data models
and our data structures,
302
00:17:35,750 --> 00:17:39,825
how do we allow for properties or items
303
00:17:39,825 --> 00:17:42,405
that maybe we don't think are important
304
00:17:42,405 --> 00:17:46,491
but are actually vitally important
for all kinds of marginalized communities?
305
00:17:46,491 --> 00:17:48,361
And this goes beyond
Indigenous communities.
306
00:17:48,361 --> 00:17:50,776
This speaks to all kinds
of marginalized people.
307
00:17:51,838 --> 00:17:57,442
And so we have to think about the ways
that we can use our data structures
308
00:17:57,442 --> 00:18:01,013
to address some of these issues
309
00:18:01,013 --> 00:18:05,022
and to become a space
where we actually are working for justice
310
00:18:05,022 --> 00:18:07,952
within our data structures.
311
00:18:09,850 --> 00:18:13,810
Okay. I don't know how I'm doing for time.
I forgot to put my timer on.
312
00:18:13,810 --> 00:18:17,124
Oh my goodness! Okay!
(laughing) I've just got five minutes!
313
00:18:17,124 --> 00:18:18,857
So I'm going
to speed through some examples.
314
00:18:18,857 --> 00:18:22,210
Now I do have real-life examples.
315
00:18:22,210 --> 00:18:27,716
I'm working with, as part of a member
of the CFLA Indigenous Matters Group
316
00:18:27,716 --> 00:18:29,428
and NIKLA, we're working
on the development
317
00:18:29,428 --> 00:18:32,705
of a First Nations, Métis,
and Inuit ontology.
318
00:18:32,705 --> 00:18:37,169
We have developed this list,
this is just a little sample,
319
00:18:37,169 --> 00:18:39,287
of all the kinds of things
that we're collecting
320
00:18:39,287 --> 00:18:42,214
of what we're calling community names.
321
00:18:42,214 --> 00:18:45,738
We had a soft launch
of this data on June 21st
322
00:18:45,738 --> 00:18:47,874
for National Indigenous Peoples Day
323
00:18:49,304 --> 00:18:52,212
and we are hopefully
going to be deploying this
324
00:18:52,212 --> 00:18:55,147
within Wikibase, is the plan.
325
00:18:55,147 --> 00:18:56,637
We have some stuff in there,
326
00:18:56,637 --> 00:19:00,446
but I think we're going to have
to just wipe it and start over
327
00:19:00,446 --> 00:19:02,618
because we're really--
328
00:19:02,618 --> 00:19:05,574
We've come to realize where a part
of our work really lies
329
00:19:05,574 --> 00:19:06,850
is in the data modeling.
330
00:19:06,850 --> 00:19:09,211
So we really need to be thinking
about our data structures
331
00:19:09,211 --> 00:19:12,887
and how we are going
to conceptualize that data
332
00:19:12,887 --> 00:19:17,117
within the Wikibase environment.
333
00:19:17,117 --> 00:19:19,691
Part of this is also related to Wikidata.
334
00:19:19,691 --> 00:19:24,380
So I've kind of been ignoring
some parts of Wikidata
335
00:19:24,380 --> 00:19:28,359
because I kind of don't want
to have to deal with some of it.
336
00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:30,820
(chuckling) I'll just be really honest.
337
00:19:30,820 --> 00:19:34,234
So there is "nation" in Wikidata.
338
00:19:34,234 --> 00:19:39,943
So one of the questions I would have
is if you have Ojibwe, is that an ethnic--
339
00:19:39,943 --> 00:19:41,587
Currently I think it's an ethnic group--
340
00:19:41,587 --> 00:19:44,558
Is it an ethnic group? Is it a nation?
Is it both those things?
341
00:19:44,558 --> 00:19:46,922
Do we have both those things
at the same time?
342
00:19:46,922 --> 00:19:51,401
I think that's a question I have not yet
figured out how to answer.
343
00:19:51,401 --> 00:19:54,740
We do have something called
"native land" in Wikidata.
344
00:19:54,740 --> 00:19:57,625
When I first looked at it
a couple days ago, maybe last week,
345
00:19:57,625 --> 00:19:59,034
I kind of stumbled on it,
346
00:19:59,034 --> 00:20:02,378
and it actually was an instance
of an isolated human settlement
347
00:20:02,378 --> 00:20:08,218
so maybe not the best way to describe
something that is called "native land."
348
00:20:08,218 --> 00:20:13,710
So again, when we're thinking about
maybe it's good to check in with somebody.
349
00:20:13,710 --> 00:20:16,340
I want to just show this example
of "Anishinaabe."
350
00:20:16,340 --> 00:20:21,409
So Anishinaabe, here it's an ethnic group.
I would say it's also a nation.
351
00:20:21,409 --> 00:20:23,412
But it's a nation
that also contains other nations,
352
00:20:23,412 --> 00:20:25,793
so it's actually based on
kind of a language group,
353
00:20:25,793 --> 00:20:31,075
but contains the nations
of Ojibwe, Ottawa,
354
00:20:31,075 --> 00:20:33,765
and a number of other groups within that.
355
00:20:33,765 --> 00:20:36,625
So how do we think about,
I don't want to say hierarchy,
356
00:20:36,625 --> 00:20:38,130
but there's a way of--
357
00:20:38,130 --> 00:20:40,519
A relationship has to be designated there.
358
00:20:40,519 --> 00:20:45,589
Also, one of the things in that item
is a link to the official website
359
00:20:45,589 --> 00:20:46,983
for the Anishinabek Nation.
360
00:20:46,983 --> 00:20:50,980
The ethnic group
doesn't have an official website,
361
00:20:50,980 --> 00:20:56,626
so do we have Anishinabek Nation
as an organization,
362
00:20:56,626 --> 00:20:59,425
and then we have a nation,
and then we have...?
363
00:20:59,425 --> 00:21:01,423
So there's a lot
of modeling questions that I have
364
00:21:01,423 --> 00:21:03,809
around how we might want to work this out.
365
00:21:03,809 --> 00:21:08,895
This is another example
of an archival item.
366
00:21:08,895 --> 00:21:14,351
In the item record for this document
there's no actual reference
367
00:21:14,351 --> 00:21:19,665
to Cherokee peoples
or how this information was collected,
368
00:21:19,665 --> 00:21:23,793
so we might want to think about
how we relate some of these documents,
369
00:21:23,793 --> 00:21:28,454
especially when they come
from a colonial government,
370
00:21:28,454 --> 00:21:31,702
how they are documented in Wikidata.
371
00:21:32,632 --> 00:21:34,851
And I just wanted to close
with this quote,
372
00:21:34,851 --> 00:21:39,712
which is this idea of solidarity--
how do we stand in solidarity
373
00:21:39,712 --> 00:21:44,134
with all kinds of communities
in our larger community?
374
00:21:44,134 --> 00:21:49,437
How do we recognize, again, these places
where we really need to be sensitive,
375
00:21:50,197 --> 00:21:53,752
and also recognizing that
some of these issues,
376
00:21:53,752 --> 00:21:56,634
for some communities,
are vitally important
377
00:21:56,634 --> 00:21:59,539
and it really does matter
how someone is called
378
00:21:59,539 --> 00:22:02,807
or how someone is conceptualized
within our data
379
00:22:02,807 --> 00:22:05,724
because it does matter what you see,
380
00:22:05,724 --> 00:22:11,144
but also how it impacts
the larger internet and world around us.
381
00:22:11,144 --> 00:22:13,033
And I'll close with that. Thanks.
382
00:22:13,033 --> 00:22:14,944
(applause)
383
00:22:18,744 --> 00:22:20,943
(moderator) Thank you very much, Stacy.
384
00:22:20,943 --> 00:22:24,315
I invite back all of our presenters.
385
00:22:25,595 --> 00:22:29,233
So, if there are any questions,
we've got lots of time.
386
00:22:29,233 --> 00:22:33,390
We made them cramp a bit
their presentation
387
00:22:33,390 --> 00:22:39,694
in order to let you express
your opinions or your questions, etc.
388
00:22:39,694 --> 00:22:42,576
Also, thank you, Jon, for your work.
389
00:22:45,986 --> 00:22:47,548
Yeah, there's a question there.
390
00:22:48,294 --> 00:22:51,912
(Dragan Espenschied)
Hi, I'm Dragan, from Rhizome,
391
00:22:51,912 --> 00:22:57,495
and I wanted to ask Stacy
what is your view or experience
392
00:22:57,495 --> 00:23:02,731
with data itself being kind of colonial?
393
00:23:02,731 --> 00:23:06,299
Because sometimes
I have the impression that
394
00:23:06,299 --> 00:23:10,823
especially the things that seem ambiguous
are reflected in data
395
00:23:10,823 --> 00:23:12,643
with the most descriptions,
396
00:23:12,643 --> 00:23:16,785
and the idea of data to remove ambiguity
397
00:23:16,785 --> 00:23:20,708
is kind of something that has struck me.
398
00:23:20,708 --> 00:23:25,190
And I wonder, especially when you see
these disputed territories--
399
00:23:25,190 --> 00:23:28,921
maybe no one ever cared about it before,
but now you have to describe it
400
00:23:28,921 --> 00:23:30,500
and then suddenly it becomes a problem.
401
00:23:30,500 --> 00:23:32,435
So what is your...?
402
00:23:32,435 --> 00:23:35,157
Yeah, I feel like this is my life.
So I was a cataloger, for--
403
00:23:35,157 --> 00:23:36,764
I don't know if anybody else here is a--
404
00:23:36,764 --> 00:23:38,885
As you know, I'm a librarian.
I worked as a cataloger.
405
00:23:38,885 --> 00:23:40,826
You can never get it right,
it always feels like.
406
00:23:40,826 --> 00:23:45,791
You're always going to be...
There's no right answer, in a way.
407
00:23:45,791 --> 00:23:46,984
There's only attempts.
408
00:23:46,984 --> 00:23:51,520
But I do think that one of the issues
is that all of our structures
409
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:55,593
that we work with are colonial
and express power in different ways.
410
00:23:55,593 --> 00:23:59,018
So there's no way that we...
411
00:23:59,958 --> 00:24:05,581
We can't really "decolonize,"
I will say, many of our systems,
412
00:24:05,581 --> 00:24:07,383
because that's just the way they are.
413
00:24:07,383 --> 00:24:13,305
We we think about museums,
or libraries, or even sets of data,
414
00:24:13,305 --> 00:24:16,767
that it's built into the code
in some ways.
415
00:24:16,767 --> 00:24:19,826
So where are points
for resistance and recognition
416
00:24:19,826 --> 00:24:22,341
within some of those systems,
and how do we work to change,
417
00:24:22,341 --> 00:24:24,959
make systemic change from the beginning,
418
00:24:24,959 --> 00:24:27,877
when we think about ways
that we start off?
419
00:24:27,877 --> 00:24:32,971
There's, I don't know, it's like a scale
420
00:24:32,971 --> 00:24:36,797
of better and worse things.
421
00:24:36,797 --> 00:24:42,064
But I think if we're operating
from a point of consultation, of respect,
422
00:24:42,064 --> 00:24:47,686
of recognizing human rights
when we take those things into account,
423
00:24:47,686 --> 00:24:50,971
and how can we push
our organizations to do better.
424
00:24:50,971 --> 00:24:54,277
So one of the reasons that we started
with having this ontology
425
00:24:54,277 --> 00:24:57,852
is because it's actually to replace
Library of Congress terminology
426
00:24:57,852 --> 00:24:59,018
in our libraries,
427
00:24:59,018 --> 00:25:02,362
because in Canada we often use
Library of Congress terms.
428
00:25:02,362 --> 00:25:05,324
Those terms were developed
for Congress in the United States.
429
00:25:05,324 --> 00:25:07,440
They often don't fit
the Canadian experience.
430
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:11,141
Like the heading for Indigenous people,
for First Nations people,
431
00:25:11,141 --> 00:25:13,712
is "Indians of North America" still.
432
00:25:13,712 --> 00:25:16,478
And we have little hope that
the government of the United States
433
00:25:16,478 --> 00:25:18,509
is really vested in changing those terms.
434
00:25:18,509 --> 00:25:19,582
(laughter)
435
00:25:19,582 --> 00:25:20,952
So it's part of--
436
00:25:20,952 --> 00:25:22,665
Given that, what can we do?
437
00:25:22,665 --> 00:25:26,542
And it is to develop our own ontology
438
00:25:26,542 --> 00:25:28,375
that people can use
to replace those terms.
439
00:25:28,375 --> 00:25:32,221
So I don't know if that's a great answer,
but I think there isn't--
440
00:25:32,221 --> 00:25:34,427
We're always in those structures,
441
00:25:34,427 --> 00:25:37,909
so what can we do
at various kinds of points?
442
00:25:42,736 --> 00:25:46,061
(woman) I have a question for all of you.
443
00:25:46,061 --> 00:25:51,945
How do you deal with pushback
when someone might say,
444
00:25:52,602 --> 00:25:56,648
"Well, this is the answer
in a Western peer-reviewed journal.
445
00:25:56,648 --> 00:26:03,720
This is how they called the people of 1890
and you're saying that this is inaccurate,
446
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,457
but where do you have your proof
when here it is
447
00:26:06,457 --> 00:26:08,816
in a Western peer-reviewed journal?"
448
00:26:08,816 --> 00:26:11,078
How do you deal
with that kind of pushback?
449
00:26:12,242 --> 00:26:13,809
(moderator) Who wants to go first?
450
00:26:13,809 --> 00:26:14,894
(laughter)
451
00:26:14,894 --> 00:26:17,940
(woman) I'm not sure
which one of us is less likely to talk.
452
00:26:17,940 --> 00:26:22,849
(chuckling) Yeah.
This is a horrible question.
453
00:26:22,849 --> 00:26:27,835
Actually, it's a wonderful question
at the same time.
454
00:26:27,835 --> 00:26:30,735
But, for instance,
if you look at the Sámi...
455
00:26:30,735 --> 00:26:32,586
I recommend each
and every one of you today
456
00:26:32,586 --> 00:26:35,322
to go look at the Wikipedias
and look at the different ones
457
00:26:35,322 --> 00:26:37,499
and see what they call the Sámi.
458
00:26:37,499 --> 00:26:40,623
The Sámi call themselves Sámi--
sápmelaččat in Northern Sámi,
459
00:26:40,623 --> 00:26:43,141
sápmelaččat in Skolt Sámi.
460
00:26:43,141 --> 00:26:48,087
In the Spanish Wikipedia it's lapp,
(chuckles sarcastically)
461
00:26:48,087 --> 00:26:51,054
and lapp is a horribly racist word.
462
00:26:51,054 --> 00:26:55,947
And there is a huge discussion about this
in the Spanish and Catalan Wikipedias
463
00:26:55,947 --> 00:27:00,272
about what you can say--
"Well, Sámi's not in our language."
464
00:27:00,272 --> 00:27:03,065
And I know it's been used in--
and I used to live in Barcelona.
465
00:27:03,065 --> 00:27:05,464
I know it's used in Catalan, "Sámi."
466
00:27:05,464 --> 00:27:08,498
And the Wikipedias have decided
467
00:27:08,498 --> 00:27:11,365
they're going to use
the racist word instead.
468
00:27:11,365 --> 00:27:16,885
Because it's not in any
peer-reviewed article somewhere.
469
00:27:16,885 --> 00:27:18,218
So...
470
00:27:19,778 --> 00:27:22,554
Yes, so... (chuckles)
471
00:27:22,554 --> 00:27:25,278
But, I mean, we have
this session here today,
472
00:27:25,278 --> 00:27:29,515
and part of it is we invite the community
to think about these things
473
00:27:29,515 --> 00:27:31,424
and how we can...
474
00:27:31,424 --> 00:27:33,175
What do you think we should do?
475
00:27:33,175 --> 00:27:35,866
Part of it is what is
the appropriate evidence?
476
00:27:35,866 --> 00:27:37,628
If it's used in one peer-reviewed journal,
477
00:27:37,628 --> 00:27:40,436
do we have to collect evidence
somewhere else?
478
00:27:40,436 --> 00:27:42,635
How do we encourage the community
479
00:27:42,635 --> 00:27:47,334
to think about their responsibility
in this space?
480
00:27:47,334 --> 00:27:52,143
And it's maybe a long process,
but when things are--
481
00:27:52,143 --> 00:27:54,492
I think that's something,
especially in Commons,
482
00:27:54,492 --> 00:27:56,208
when we have images,
I know there are lots
483
00:27:56,208 --> 00:27:58,567
for North America
that are really problematic
484
00:27:58,567 --> 00:28:01,276
and people will say,
"Well, it's public domain."
485
00:28:01,999 --> 00:28:07,025
So I think that's a really good...
I don't have a quick or easy answer.
486
00:28:07,025 --> 00:28:08,978
(woman) We'll need
to talk about that, yeah.
487
00:28:08,978 --> 00:28:12,624
Yeah, I would like to be
a little bit optimistic with Wikidata,
488
00:28:12,624 --> 00:28:15,059
because, well, I like Wikidata.
489
00:28:15,059 --> 00:28:21,466
I think that the perfect side of it
is that we can express different views.
490
00:28:21,466 --> 00:28:27,140
We can display
the peer-reviewed terminology,
491
00:28:27,140 --> 00:28:30,951
but we can contest it with other evidence.
492
00:28:30,951 --> 00:28:37,059
So I think this is... Well, it relieves
the responsibility to the respondent,
493
00:28:37,059 --> 00:28:40,463
but still it gives new opportunities.
494
00:28:46,403 --> 00:28:51,701
[inaudible crosstalk]
495
00:28:53,021 --> 00:28:54,711
Sorry.
496
00:28:54,711 --> 00:28:59,252
Okay, let's try this one.
Sorry, sorry about that.
497
00:28:59,252 --> 00:29:02,039
(man) So, two things
I was going to mention,
498
00:29:02,039 --> 00:29:06,403
but one of them is the one you just said,
that for situations where,
499
00:29:06,403 --> 00:29:09,656
like you spoke about
the Canadian citizenship problem,
500
00:29:09,656 --> 00:29:15,842
that can certainly be entered as,
you could say, "He's Canadian,
501
00:29:15,842 --> 00:29:19,582
claimed by the Canadian government,"
or whatever this is,
502
00:29:19,582 --> 00:29:22,842
and have a different thing that says
his citizenship is something else,
503
00:29:22,842 --> 00:29:27,452
or even unknown, or even no value
if we don't have a nation...
504
00:29:28,402 --> 00:29:31,174
if the nation is not allowed
by Wikidata in there,
505
00:29:31,174 --> 00:29:32,424
which is a different discussion
506
00:29:32,424 --> 00:29:35,456
that I guess you probably
will have to have at some point.
507
00:29:35,456 --> 00:29:38,131
So this is perfectly doable in that sense.
508
00:29:38,131 --> 00:29:40,090
The person's probably
still going to be unhappy
509
00:29:40,090 --> 00:29:42,367
that the Canadian citizenship
is listed at all,
510
00:29:42,367 --> 00:29:43,907
but at least you can show them that...
511
00:29:43,907 --> 00:29:50,092
So it's listed as not a universal truth,
but only as one of the possible opinions.
512
00:29:50,665 --> 00:29:52,678
Another thing I wanted
to bring up for a moment
513
00:29:52,678 --> 00:29:54,802
is something I was talking to Kimberli--
514
00:29:54,802 --> 00:29:57,978
it was kind of run through
through the slides
515
00:29:57,978 --> 00:30:00,788
because of the time concerns.
516
00:30:02,188 --> 00:30:05,940
This part was easier in the sense that,
okay, if you have two different things
517
00:30:05,940 --> 00:30:08,747
and you can put
the two things there and it's okay,
518
00:30:08,747 --> 00:30:09,935
but what happens for cases
519
00:30:09,935 --> 00:30:13,101
where the community does not want
this knowledge to be public at all?
520
00:30:19,371 --> 00:30:24,238
- Ah yeah, the Indigenous one.
- (man) Yeah.
521
00:30:25,813 --> 00:30:32,964
I think there is space for us
to work on privacy, sensitive data,
522
00:30:32,964 --> 00:30:39,747
and identifying those
and finding out ways
523
00:30:39,747 --> 00:30:46,637
to handle content that we find,
or the communities find, problematic.
524
00:30:46,637 --> 00:30:53,566
It's a large discussion,
and it has a lot of legal aspects.
525
00:30:53,566 --> 00:30:55,997
It has a lot of ethical aspects,
526
00:30:55,997 --> 00:31:02,636
and it ties to copyright as well
and the ownership of the content.
527
00:31:03,092 --> 00:31:07,564
So, well, lots of things
to say about that.
528
00:31:07,564 --> 00:31:11,990
Yeah, and I will also say
that you just-- [inaudible]
529
00:31:11,990 --> 00:31:15,328
Copyright regimes that
we are familiar with are colonial.
530
00:31:15,328 --> 00:31:20,800
There's actually a huge friction
between copyright regimes
531
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:25,223
that are used in most countries
and traditional knowledge.
532
00:31:25,223 --> 00:31:28,227
I think we have to maybe
be comfortable sometimes
533
00:31:28,227 --> 00:31:30,023
with deleting content,
534
00:31:30,023 --> 00:31:32,284
even that we say,
"Well, it's public domain."
535
00:31:32,284 --> 00:31:35,140
Well, public domain,
it does not necessarily have a meaning
536
00:31:35,140 --> 00:31:38,598
in an Indigenous community
or in certain communities.
537
00:31:38,598 --> 00:31:43,703
So what does it mean when, again,
when we go back to this idea
538
00:31:43,703 --> 00:31:46,187
of sovereignty
and recognizing human rights
539
00:31:46,187 --> 00:31:47,298
when we say--
540
00:31:47,298 --> 00:31:52,184
I was at a meeting that
the Canadian government was sponsoring
541
00:31:52,184 --> 00:31:55,794
on copyright regime in Canada
and Indigenous knowledge,
542
00:31:55,794 --> 00:32:00,717
and someone said--and it just really
has stayed with me since that meeting--
543
00:32:00,717 --> 00:32:03,047
"Human rights before property rights."
544
00:32:04,017 --> 00:32:07,893
Again, if we are taking human rights
as our prime motivator
545
00:32:07,893 --> 00:32:09,344
and prime way that we're thinking,
546
00:32:09,344 --> 00:32:12,065
then some of these other questions
become easier to answer,
547
00:32:12,065 --> 00:32:17,433
because we have to value humans
in a way, all humans.
548
00:32:17,433 --> 00:32:20,701
So we can't say
that their property rights,
549
00:32:20,701 --> 00:32:23,331
or something like public domain,
should come before that.
550
00:32:23,331 --> 00:32:24,347
And it's hard.
551
00:32:24,347 --> 00:32:27,931
It's hard for many of us who are
all about access to things,
552
00:32:27,931 --> 00:32:29,292
access to documents,
553
00:32:29,292 --> 00:32:31,716
because it's against
what we feel like we should do.
554
00:32:31,716 --> 00:32:35,371
But in some ways I think
that's the direction
555
00:32:35,371 --> 00:32:37,408
for certain kinds of content,
556
00:32:37,408 --> 00:32:43,660
because a lot of things were collected
by anthropologists, for example,
557
00:32:43,660 --> 00:32:46,781
and some of those things--
books or photographs--
558
00:32:46,781 --> 00:32:50,491
are now in "public domain,"
and uploaded into Commons.
559
00:32:51,661 --> 00:32:54,299
(moderator) Okay, so our session is over.
560
00:32:54,299 --> 00:32:57,975
There was one more question
from that gentleman from the back, but...
561
00:32:57,975 --> 00:33:00,002
- (man) That's fine.
- (moderator) Okay, sorry.
562
00:33:00,002 --> 00:33:03,038
I really apologize for this.
So, thank you.
563
00:33:03,768 --> 00:33:05,466
We'll be back tomorrow, so.
564
00:33:05,466 --> 00:33:10,161
We have a meetup tomorrow,
at 11:30, I think.
565
00:33:10,161 --> 00:33:12,779
If you want to talk more
about Indigenous issues, come on out.
566
00:33:14,049 --> 00:33:16,030
(moderator) So... yeah!
567
00:33:16,030 --> 00:33:18,102
(applause)