0:00:06.344,0:00:07.346
Hello, everyone.
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I'm Stacy Allison-Cassin.
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I'm a librarian at York University[br]in Toronto, Canada.
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I'm really happy to be here[br]with you all today.
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I'll just also say right off the top
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that I'm a citizen[br]of the Métis Nation of Ontario,
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which is a recognized[br]Indigenous nation in Canada.
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Also, the talk today,[br]I'm not going to show a lot of cool tools
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or things like that.
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It is about a conversation,
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sort of picking up on the talk[br]that we just heard--
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around issues, around Indigenous content,[br]Indigenous people, Indigenous culture
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in Wikidata and Wikibase.
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And I really want us to think about[br]a couple of key issues.
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One is the relationship[br]between the data structures
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we create and maintain,
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and issues related[br]to human rights and equity.
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So we should think--[br]We talk a lot about equity
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in terms of gaps and accessibility,
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but there are other ways[br]that we can also think about equity
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in our projects.
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So the ways that we can use Wikidata[br]as a space for activism,
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making the world better for more people.
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And modeling is hard, yet fun.
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So I want to talk about modeling--
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hopefully you want to talk[br]about modeling--a little bit,
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and sort of invite you[br]into this conversation.
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I think we are going to hold[br]some of the questions to the end.
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But I also want to acknowledge[br]that what I'm talking about today
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is not just my own thoughts,[br]that this is really building
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on meetings like this, where we get[br]to talk together about things.
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In particular, I want to call out
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the Canadian Federation[br]of Library Association's
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Indigenous Matters Joint Working Group[br]on Subject Headings and Classifications
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that is doing work intensely[br]on this project right now;
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also the National Indigenous Knowledges[br]and Language Alliance
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Data Modeling Subgroup;
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and specifically Camille Callison,[br]who's from the Tahltan Nation,
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at University of Manitoba;
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Dean Seeman at the University of Victoria;
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Tim Knight, who's with me[br]at York University;
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and Alissa Cherry,[br]who's at the Museum for Anthropology
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at the University of British Columbia.
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So what I want to center my talk today on[br]is this idea of sovereignty and nationhood
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in relation to Indigenous peoples
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and how this impacts[br]how we think about our data models.
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So I want to talk a little bit[br]about colonization.
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So for those of us[br]who are from colonized nations,
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we have particular ways[br]that we might think about
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how colonization impacts peoples and land.
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So we know that[br]one of the goals of colonization
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is actually to remove[br]the occupants of the land
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so that people can come[br]and either settle that land,
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they can engage[br]in resource extraction activities,
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they're opening up the land[br]for agriculture
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and other forms of habitation.
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And we know that this is not in the past,[br]this is ongoing today.
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We know that there are active things[br]happening in the world right now
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which are seeking[br]to remove occupants from land,
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sometimes lands they've occupied[br]for thousands of years,
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in order to engage in these activities.
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And we know that colonial states[br]engage in activities
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to assure their control over territory.
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And we heard a little bit about this[br]this morning in relation to language.
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So we know that languages[br]aren't endangered
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just through natural causes,
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that there are deliberate actions[br]taken by governments or nation states
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to eradicate language[br]in very deliberate ways,
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because language is connected[br]to sovereignty.
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It's connected to saying[br]that there is a culture
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and people are active in this culture[br]and occupying the space.
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When we think about how[br]small languages come to be small--
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So I might get a little emotional[br]about these issues,
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but these are the kinds of things[br]that are really important--
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culture deliberately being eradicated,[br]and people, colonial nations
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involved in acts of genocide[br]in various kinds of ways.
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So that's a very serious topic,
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but it does actually impact[br]the kind of work that we do
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and I think is a thread that runs through
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how we think about[br]the importance of culture
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and the way that[br]dominant culture is deployed
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within all kinds of cultural institutions.
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So a couple examples from Canada.
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There's many I could name,[br]but I'll just name a couple.
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So currently there are fights taking place
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in the province of British Columbia,[br]where the government of Canada
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and corporations are trying[br]to build pipelines
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through Indigenous territory,
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and the hereditary chiefs[br]of the Wet'suwet'en Nation
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does not want the pipeline built[br]through their territory,
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but the government is actually[br]arresting people who are protesting,
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even though they're on their land.
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The Indian Act in Canada was instituted[br]as a deliberate way
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to engage in assimilation,[br]so state-based assimilation tactics.
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This is again through the removal[br]of language and culture.
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Ceremony was outlawed,
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so practicing your traditional ceremonies.
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The traditional governance structures[br]for First Nations was outlawed.
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A pass system was introduced,[br]so people were not allowed
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to leave their reserves without a pass.
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So you think about all the ways[br]that those methods
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or the sovereignty of a nation[br]being actively worked against
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and, again, these tactics of assimilation.
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And then, of course,[br]many people here might know about
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the residential school system in Canada,
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which was children[br]being sent to boarding schools
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where it was, again,[br]deliberate acts of assimilation
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where you were stripped[br]of your language, of your clothing,
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not allowed contact with your families,[br]and that's very deliberate.
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So, again, going back to the keynote[br]we heard this morning
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about parents choosing[br]to pass on their language,
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well that choice is taken away[br]when children are sent away to school.
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So that has long-lasting[br]intergenerational impacts
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on the ways that families work[br]and on culture.
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So the Truth and Reconciliation Commission[br]came out with calls to action,
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some of those deliberately calling out[br]cultural heritage and education
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in some of these places
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where colonial practices[br]are actually ongoing.
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So recognizing the right to self-govern
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and to autonomy and sovereignty over land,[br]that's very important.
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So it also governs our relationships[br]between nations.
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We might use in Canada,[br]quite often, this idea
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of nation-to-nation relationship.
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So that recognizes that[br]the government of Canada is a nation,
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but within Canada[br]there are also multiple nations.
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So when we have a First Nation engaging[br]in negotiation with a government
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that's considered[br]a nation-to-nation relationship.
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Many Indigenous people in Canada[br]do not recognize Canadian citizenship.
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They do not want to be associated[br]with being Canadian.
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I know if I write Wikipedia articles[br]about Indigenous folks that I know,
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one thing I have heard repeatedly is,[br]"Do not say I'm from Canada."
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"I don't want to be[br]'so and so is an artist in Canada,'
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or 'is a Canadian'... no."
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So what does it mean[br]when we take that person
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and we have a Wikidata item for them
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and we say that[br]their citizenship is Canadian?
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You know, that's actually[br]an act of violence against that--
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I mean, it sounds very serious, but it is,[br]because we are saying that person,
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who is actively working to resist
0:08:01.105,0:08:07.477
the colonial system,
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and then we are saying in their data,[br]"Oh, but they're Canadian."
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"Well, I want to be able to run[br]a SPARQL query against them
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and bring up all the Canadians."
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Well, that would be useful,[br]but what does it mean
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when we replicate[br]these kinds of things in our data?
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So recognizing Indigenous sovereignty[br]is an important aspect
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in creating a more just[br]and equitable world,
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even though we might not get[br]the kinds of data that we might want.
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So if we're going to take[br]the strategic areas
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of knowledge equity seriously,
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we also need to pay attention[br]to the structures in our data.
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So again, we tend to think along gaps[br]like the gender gap,
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visibility gaps, small language[br]and marginalized communities,
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but when we think about[br]why are these communities small,
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or what does it mean[br]when we have these gaps?
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And we have to, again,[br]think about the structures
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and how we're conceptualized in our data[br]and how we're treating...
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Just like the example of the photograph.
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Again, why is that so bothersome[br]to the Sámi community?
0:09:03.141,0:09:06.974
It's because, yet again,[br]culture being appropriated,
0:09:06.974,0:09:09.742
them being misnamed.
0:09:09.742,0:09:11.975
Or again, and we see in Canada,
0:09:11.975,0:09:15.866
a return to the original[br]traditional names of territory.
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And so all of these things[br]are really important,
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and we have to think about[br]how we can center these practices
0:09:21.845,0:09:23.887
in the work that we're doing.
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So again, I just want to emphasize[br]that belonging to a nation
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is not the same thing[br]as belonging to an ethnicity.
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I know sometimes that we think[br]about those things as being the same,
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but they're not.
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So again, it's thinking[br]about the relationship
0:09:37.119,0:09:43.414
between nationhood and nationality,[br]belonging to a nation and citizenship,
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and the governant structure[br]that goes with that is different
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than the ways we think about ethnicity.
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And again, just to stress again[br]that it then becomes a conversation
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around relationships between nations,[br]governance, land, and people.
0:09:58.070,0:09:59.408
So if we think about colonization
0:09:59.408,0:10:02.503
as an act of removing people[br]from their land,
0:10:02.503,0:10:06.586
or reducing their sovereignty[br]over the territory they occupy,
0:10:06.586,0:10:09.067
how can we, in the data that we produce,
0:10:09.067,0:10:15.901
recognize that these nations
0:10:15.901,0:10:18.095
are occupying a particular spot.
0:10:18.095,0:10:23.450
If we aren't talking about nationhood[br]and we talk about a territory
0:10:23.450,0:10:28.081
then we make those people[br]absent from that territory,
0:10:28.081,0:10:29.773
whether they're presently there or not.
0:10:29.773,0:10:31.309
So again, another thing to think about
0:10:31.309,0:10:35.709
is how we document occupation[br]over time, as well,
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because one of the things[br]that you hear about,
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especially in reference[br]to places like North America,
0:10:40.052,0:10:43.987
is that, "Well, no one was there.[br]It was a vast wilderness of unoccupied..."
0:10:43.987,0:10:45.542
Well, that's not true.
0:10:45.542,0:10:49.447
People have been living in North America[br]for thousands of years.
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I have ancestors who have been living[br]in Canada, or the area of Canada,
0:10:53.427,0:10:54.541
for thousands of years.
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So it's not an unoccupied space[br]that people just came in and discovered.
0:10:59.684,0:11:02.586
So this concept of discovery is helpful
0:11:02.586,0:11:05.392
in the ways that we think about
0:11:05.392,0:11:10.494
the colonial practices.
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So I'm going to talk[br]a little bit about myself,
0:11:13.743,0:11:15.173
because I feel like I can.
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Again, it's about being respectful.
0:11:16.680,0:11:18.637
I don't want to talk about[br]someone else's nations,
0:11:18.637,0:11:20.979
I'm going to talk about[br]my own a little bit.
0:11:20.979,0:11:24.277
So this is a picture of me and my dad.
0:11:24.277,0:11:30.861
So my grandmother,[br]my dad's mum, is a Métis.
0:11:30.861,0:11:33.526
And, just again, in reference[br]to the conversation this morning,
0:11:33.526,0:11:37.105
she did not teach her language to my dad.
0:11:37.105,0:11:39.154
She was living away from her community,
0:11:39.154,0:11:43.053
and it was definitely a thing[br]where you were not...
0:11:43.053,0:11:46.289
She did not want to talk about[br]being Indigenous.
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That was not a safe thing to be[br]in the community that she was in.
0:11:51.024,0:11:52.478
I'm from Thunder Bay, Ontario.
0:11:52.478,0:11:55.231
I don't know how many people[br]we have here... probably not.
0:11:55.231,0:11:56.712
Anyway, it's not known--
0:11:56.712,0:12:00.488
It's known for having[br]pretty serious problems with racism.
0:12:00.488,0:12:04.075
And so that was her choice.
0:12:04.075,0:12:05.575
This is a picture of...
0:12:05.575,0:12:08.621
The young man standing in the back there[br]is my great grandfather.
0:12:10.061,0:12:14.049
And the document on the far side there,
0:12:14.049,0:12:17.596
I just want to talk about the ways that...
0:12:18.546,0:12:23.870
So you have this problem of Indigeneity,
0:12:23.870,0:12:31.060
or these kinds of culture[br]being suppressed in various ways.
0:12:31.660,0:12:34.422
But in the process of culture recovery[br]or in resurgence
0:12:34.422,0:12:38.000
or wanting to be connected[br]with a particular nation,
0:12:38.000,0:12:40.300
sometimes that becomes[br]a form of documentation.
0:12:40.300,0:12:41.990
So how do you prove you're a member?
0:12:41.990,0:12:44.280
There's saying you have[br]connections to the community,
0:12:44.280,0:12:45.963
but a lot of that[br]is through documentation.
0:12:45.963,0:12:50.148
This document here[br]is The Métis Petition of 1840,
0:12:50.148,0:12:52.211
from the Penetanguishene area,
0:12:52.211,0:12:55.769
and it's around when treaties[br]were being signed in that area.
0:12:55.769,0:12:58.086
Settlers were starting to come in,[br]they wanted the land,
0:12:58.086,0:12:59.383
so they had to have a treaty
0:12:59.383,0:13:01.272
so they could move[br]all the Indigenous people,
0:13:01.272,0:13:05.194
First Nations people, to an area[br]to free up the land for settlers.
0:13:05.194,0:13:08.861
That's a very crude way[br]of talking about it.
0:13:08.861,0:13:13.659
And this document is actually signed[br]by some of my ancestors.
0:13:15.029,0:13:18.470
It's a letter to the Lieutenant-Governor[br]at the time, saying, "Wait a minute."
0:13:18.470,0:13:21.869
Because it's called[br]The Half-Breed Petition.
0:13:21.869,0:13:28.396
So they're saying, "Wait a minute.[br]We are native also.
0:13:28.396,0:13:31.140
We should be included."
0:13:31.140,0:13:33.008
Because they called it "Indian presence";
0:13:33.008,0:13:34.561
they wanted to be included
0:13:34.561,0:13:41.020
in the negotiations that were going on.
0:13:44.189,0:13:46.947
So this became[br]a very important document presently,
0:13:46.947,0:13:52.643
in showing that this community[br]was expressing an Indigenous identity.
0:13:52.643,0:13:56.204
Because the Métis were not recognized[br]by the government
0:13:56.204,0:14:02.130
as an Indigenous people[br]until fairly recently.
0:14:02.130,0:14:08.340
So all of this is about being[br]outside of those negotiations.
0:14:08.340,0:14:11.434
And so one thing about this document[br]is it's in a collection,
0:14:11.434,0:14:12.556
a digital collection.
0:14:12.556,0:14:17.056
It took me forever to find it,[br]because it's just a scan of a microfiche.
0:14:17.846,0:14:20.597
So it was just like a...[br]There's nothing, there's no way--
0:14:20.597,0:14:23.433
So this is this super-important document,[br]lots of people want to see it,
0:14:23.433,0:14:27.035
and there's no metadata[br]in this collection that connects--
0:14:27.035,0:14:28.551
There's actually just zero metadata.
0:14:28.551,0:14:33.151
It's just like a long roll of things[br]related to correspondence
0:14:34.081,0:14:36.689
related to the British government[br]at that time.
0:14:36.689,0:14:39.664
So when we think about how also[br]we can surface documents
0:14:39.664,0:14:42.715
in a particular way[br]that are important to recognizing,
0:14:42.715,0:14:46.943
again, the existence[br]of Indigenous people in particular areas
0:14:46.943,0:14:49.444
is another thing[br]that becomes really important.
0:14:51.464,0:14:54.340
So again, this is talking about[br]my own nation.
0:14:54.340,0:14:59.930
When we talk about ways that we might[br]conceptualize nationhood or territories,
0:14:59.930,0:15:04.464
this is actually a map[br]of what the Métis Nation of Ontario
0:15:04.464,0:15:06.473
has designated as harvesting territory.
0:15:06.473,0:15:11.504
So that's actually related[br]to hunting and fishing rights,
0:15:11.504,0:15:15.209
and that was negotiated between[br]the government of Ontario
0:15:15.209,0:15:17.374
and the Métis Nation of Ontario.
0:15:17.374,0:15:23.873
The Captains of the Hunt are the people[br]who oversee that all of these activities.
0:15:23.873,0:15:27.232
So although I live in Toronto,[br]which is actually down here,
0:15:27.232,0:15:30.746
this would be considered[br]my traditional harvesting territory
0:15:30.746,0:15:34.611
because that's where[br]I can tie my ancestors to.
0:15:34.611,0:15:37.584
So when we think about how we might[br]model that kind of thing,
0:15:37.584,0:15:40.222
when we're thinking, again,[br]about structures in our data,
0:15:40.222,0:15:46.469
we need to recognize community roles[br]that also have ties to territory.
0:15:47.839,0:15:52.526
And then I'm going to talk[br]a little bit about--
0:15:52.526,0:15:54.431
Again, you don't have--
0:15:54.431,0:15:58.568
Not all Indigenous peoples agree[br]on what is someone's territory.
0:15:58.568,0:16:02.028
So there are disputes[br]between different things.
0:16:02.028,0:16:07.322
So recently the Métis National Council
0:16:07.322,0:16:12.713
has decided that this is the map[br]of the Métis Nation in Canada.
0:16:12.713,0:16:17.957
This does not recognize[br]the Métis people in British Columbia
0:16:17.957,0:16:21.543
or in some parts of Ontario,[br]so these other places are saying,
0:16:21.543,0:16:23.438
"Wait a minute.[br]We don't agree with this map."
0:16:23.438,0:16:29.821
So one of the things is who decides[br]or how are we going to negotiate between--
0:16:29.821,0:16:34.355
Is it actually allowing[br]for multiplicity of...
0:16:35.665,0:16:40.174
And then the First Nations people[br]whose land, this territory, covers,
0:16:40.174,0:16:42.405
were like, "Well, you didn't ask us[br]about this map."
0:16:42.405,0:16:46.454
So there is also thinking about the ways[br]that we need to negotiate
0:16:46.454,0:16:50.721
between claims on territory,[br]how we might document those claims,
0:16:50.721,0:16:56.823
but also allowing for recognition[br]that there is overlapping,
0:16:56.823,0:17:00.923
kinds of ways that we consider territory.
0:17:03.859,0:17:07.737
So I just wanted to post this quote,
0:17:07.737,0:17:13.578
because I think it's a really good way[br]of talking about how colonization,
0:17:13.578,0:17:18.343
we don't notice it, because it is,[br]in many places, the dominant culture.
0:17:18.343,0:17:21.701
It's the dominant way[br]we think about the world.
0:17:21.701,0:17:24.701
We don't necessarily notice[br]these kinds of things.
0:17:24.701,0:17:30.815
So again, when we think about[br]the perspectives of the marginalized,
0:17:30.815,0:17:33.385
so again, when we're talking[br]with all of us,
0:17:33.385,0:17:35.750
when we think about our data models[br]and our data structures,
0:17:35.750,0:17:39.825
how do we allow for properties or items
0:17:39.825,0:17:42.405
that maybe we don't think are important
0:17:42.405,0:17:46.491
but are actually vitally important[br]for all kinds of marginalized communities?
0:17:46.491,0:17:48.361
And this goes beyond[br]Indigenous communities.
0:17:48.361,0:17:50.776
This speaks to all kinds[br]of marginalized people.
0:17:51.838,0:17:57.442
And so we have to think about the ways[br]that we can use our data structures
0:17:57.442,0:18:01.013
to address some of these issues
0:18:01.013,0:18:05.022
and to become a space[br]where we actually are working for justice
0:18:05.022,0:18:07.952
within our data structures.
0:18:09.850,0:18:13.810
Okay. I don't know how I'm doing for time.[br]I forgot to put my timer on.
0:18:13.810,0:18:17.124
Oh my goodness! Okay I've just got five minutes!
0:18:17.124,0:18:18.857
So I'm going[br]to speed through some examples.
0:18:18.857,0:18:22.210
Now I do have real-life examples.
0:18:22.210,0:18:27.716
I'm working with, as part of a member[br]of the CFLA Indigenous Matters Group
0:18:27.716,0:18:29.428
and NIKLA, we're working[br]on the development
0:18:29.428,0:18:32.705
of a First Nations, Métis,[br]and Inuit ontology.
0:18:32.705,0:18:37.169
We have developed this list,[br]this is just a little sample,
0:18:37.169,0:18:39.287
of all the kinds of things[br]that we're collecting
0:18:39.287,0:18:42.214
of what we're calling community names.
0:18:42.214,0:18:45.738
We had a soft launch[br]of this data on June 21st
0:18:45.738,0:18:47.874
for National Indigenous Peoples Day
0:18:49.304,0:18:52.212
and we are hopefully[br]going to be deploying this
0:18:52.212,0:18:55.147
within Wikibase, is the plan.
0:18:55.147,0:18:56.637
We have some stuff in there,
0:18:56.637,0:19:00.446
but I think we're going to have[br]to just wipe it and start over
0:19:00.446,0:19:02.618
because we're really--
0:19:02.618,0:19:05.574
We've come to realize where a part[br]of our work really lies
0:19:05.574,0:19:06.850
is in the data modeling.
0:19:06.850,0:19:09.211
So we really need to be thinking[br]about our data structures
0:19:09.211,0:19:12.887
and how we are going[br]to conceptualize that data
0:19:12.887,0:19:17.117
within the Wikibase environment.
0:19:17.117,0:19:19.691
Part of this is also related to Wikidata.
0:19:19.691,0:19:24.380
So I've kind of been ignoring[br]some parts of Wikidata
0:19:24.380,0:19:28.359
because I kind of don't want[br]to have to deal with some of it.
0:19:28.359,0:19:30.820
(chuckling) I'll just be really honest.
0:19:30.820,0:19:34.234
So there is "nation" in Wikidata.
0:19:34.234,0:19:39.943
So one of the questions I would have[br]is if you have Ojibwe, is that an ethnic--
0:19:39.943,0:19:41.587
Currently I think it's an ethnic group--
0:19:41.587,0:19:44.558
Is it an ethnic group? Is it a nation?[br]Is it both those things?
0:19:44.558,0:19:46.922
Do we have both those things[br]at the same time?
0:19:46.922,0:19:51.401
I think that's a question I have not yet[br]figured out how to answer.
0:19:51.401,0:19:54.740
We do have something called[br]"native land" in Wikidata.
0:19:54.740,0:19:57.625
When I first looked at it[br]a couple days ago, maybe last week,
0:19:57.625,0:19:59.034
I kind of stumbled on it,
0:19:59.034,0:20:02.378
and it actually was an instance[br]of an isolated human settlement
0:20:02.378,0:20:08.218
so maybe not the best way to describe[br]something that is called "native land."
0:20:08.218,0:20:13.710
So again, when we're thinking about[br]maybe it's good to check in with somebody.
0:20:13.710,0:20:16.340
I want to just show this example[br]of "Anishinaabe."
0:20:16.340,0:20:21.409
So Anishinaabe, here it's an ethnic group.[br]I would say it's also a nation.
0:20:21.409,0:20:23.412
But it's a nation[br]that also contains other nations,
0:20:23.412,0:20:25.793
so it's actually based on[br]kind of a language group,
0:20:25.793,0:20:31.075
but contains the nations[br]of Ojibwe, Ottawa,
0:20:31.075,0:20:33.765
and a number of other groups within that.
0:20:33.765,0:20:36.625
So how do we think about,[br]I don't want to say hierarchy,
0:20:36.625,0:20:38.130
but there's a way of--
0:20:38.130,0:20:40.519
A relationship has to be designated there.
0:20:40.519,0:20:45.589
Also, one of the things in that item[br]is a link to the official website
0:20:45.589,0:20:46.983
for the Anishinabek Nation.
0:20:46.983,0:20:50.980
The ethnic group[br]doesn't have an official website,
0:20:50.980,0:20:56.626
so do we have Anishinabek Nation[br]as an organization,
0:20:56.626,0:20:59.425
and then we have a nation,[br]and then we have...?
0:20:59.425,0:21:01.423
So there's a lot[br]of modeling questions that I have
0:21:01.423,0:21:03.809
around how we might want to work this out.
0:21:03.809,0:21:08.895
This is another example[br]of an archival item.
0:21:08.895,0:21:14.351
In the item record for this document[br]there's no actual reference
0:21:14.351,0:21:19.665
to Cherokee peoples[br]or how this information was collected,
0:21:19.665,0:21:23.793
so we might want to think about[br]how we relate some of these documents,
0:21:23.793,0:21:28.454
especially when they come[br]from a colonial government,
0:21:28.454,0:21:31.702
how they are documented in Wikidata.
0:21:32.632,0:21:34.851
And I just wanted to close[br]with this quote,
0:21:34.851,0:21:39.712
which is this idea of solidarity--[br]how do we stand in solidarity
0:21:39.712,0:21:44.134
with all kinds of communities[br]in our larger community?
0:21:44.134,0:21:49.437
How do we recognize, again, these places[br]where we really need to be sensitive,
0:21:50.197,0:21:53.752
and also recognizing that[br]some of these issues,
0:21:53.752,0:21:56.634
for some communities,[br]are vitally important
0:21:56.634,0:21:59.539
and it really does matter[br]how someone is called
0:21:59.539,0:22:02.807
or how someone is conceptualized[br]within our data
0:22:02.807,0:22:05.724
because it does matter what you see,
0:22:05.724,0:22:11.144
but also how it impacts[br]the larger internet and world around us.
0:22:11.144,0:22:13.033
And I'll close with that. Thanks.
0:22:13.033,0:22:14.944
(applause)
0:22:18.744,0:22:20.943
(moderator) Thank you very much, Stacy.
0:22:20.943,0:22:24.315
I invite back all of our presenters.
0:22:25.595,0:22:29.233
So, if there are any questions,[br]we've got lots of time.
0:22:29.233,0:22:33.390
We made them cramp a bit[br]their presentation
0:22:33.390,0:22:39.694
in order to let you express[br]your opinions or your questions, etc.
0:22:39.694,0:22:42.576
Also, thank you, Jon, for your work.
0:22:45.986,0:22:47.548
Yeah, there's a question there.
0:22:48.294,0:22:51.912
(Dragan Espenschied)[br]Hi, I'm Dragan, from Rhizome,
0:22:51.912,0:22:57.495
and I wanted to ask Stacy[br]what is your view or experience
0:22:57.495,0:23:02.731
with data itself being kind of colonial?
0:23:02.731,0:23:06.299
Because sometimes[br]I have the impression that
0:23:06.299,0:23:10.823
especially the things that seem ambiguous[br]are reflected in data
0:23:10.823,0:23:12.643
with the most descriptions,
0:23:12.643,0:23:16.785
and the idea of data to remove ambiguity
0:23:16.785,0:23:20.708
is kind of something that has struck me.
0:23:20.708,0:23:25.190
And I wonder, especially when you see[br]these disputed territories--
0:23:25.190,0:23:28.921
maybe no one ever cared about it before,[br]but now you have to describe it
0:23:28.921,0:23:30.500
and then suddenly it becomes a problem.
0:23:30.500,0:23:32.435
So what is your...?
0:23:32.435,0:23:35.157
Yeah, I feel like this is my life.[br]So I was a cataloger, for--
0:23:35.157,0:23:36.764
I don't know if anybody else here is a--
0:23:36.764,0:23:38.885
As you know, I'm a librarian.[br]I worked as a cataloger.
0:23:38.885,0:23:40.826
You can never get it right,[br]it always feels like.
0:23:40.826,0:23:45.791
You're always going to be...[br]There's no right answer, in a way.
0:23:45.791,0:23:46.984
There's only attempts.
0:23:46.984,0:23:51.520
But I do think that one of the issues[br]is that all of our structures
0:23:51.520,0:23:55.593
that we work with are colonial[br]and express power in different ways.
0:23:55.593,0:23:59.018
So there's no way that we...
0:23:59.958,0:24:05.581
We can't really "decolonize,"[br]I will say, many of our systems,
0:24:05.581,0:24:07.383
because that's just the way they are.
0:24:07.383,0:24:13.305
We we think about museums,[br]or libraries, or even sets of data,
0:24:13.305,0:24:16.767
that it's built into the code[br]in some ways.
0:24:16.767,0:24:19.826
So where are points[br]for resistance and recognition
0:24:19.826,0:24:22.341
within some of those systems,[br]and how do we work to change,
0:24:22.341,0:24:24.959
make systemic change from the beginning,
0:24:24.959,0:24:27.877
when we think about ways[br]that we start off?
0:24:27.877,0:24:32.971
There's, I don't know, it's like a scale
0:24:32.971,0:24:36.797
of better and worse things.
0:24:36.797,0:24:42.064
But I think if we're operating[br]from a point of consultation, of respect,
0:24:42.064,0:24:47.686
of recognizing human rights[br]when we take those things into account,
0:24:47.686,0:24:50.971
and how can we push[br]our organizations to do better.
0:24:50.971,0:24:54.277
So one of the reasons that we started[br]with having this ontology
0:24:54.277,0:24:57.852
is because it's actually to replace[br]Library of Congress terminology
0:24:57.852,0:24:59.018
in our libraries,
0:24:59.018,0:25:02.362
because in Canada we often use[br]Library of Congress terms.
0:25:02.362,0:25:05.324
Those terms were developed[br]for Congress in the United States.
0:25:05.324,0:25:07.440
They often don't fit[br]the Canadian experience.
0:25:07.440,0:25:11.141
Like the heading for Indigenous people,[br]for First Nations people,
0:25:11.141,0:25:13.712
is "Indians of North America" still.
0:25:13.712,0:25:16.478
And we have little hope that[br]the government of the United States
0:25:16.478,0:25:18.509
is really vested in changing those terms.
0:25:18.509,0:25:19.582
(laughter)
0:25:19.582,0:25:20.952
So it's part of--
0:25:20.952,0:25:22.665
Given that, what can we do?
0:25:22.665,0:25:26.542
And it is to develop our own ontology
0:25:26.542,0:25:28.375
that people can use[br]to replace those terms.
0:25:28.375,0:25:32.221
So I don't know if that's a great answer,[br]but I think there isn't--
0:25:32.221,0:25:34.427
We're always in those structures,
0:25:34.427,0:25:37.909
so what can we do[br]at various kinds of points?
0:25:42.736,0:25:46.061
(woman) I have a question for all of you.
0:25:46.061,0:25:51.945
How do you deal with pushback[br]when someone might say,
0:25:52.602,0:25:56.648
"Well, this is the answer[br]in a Western peer-reviewed journal.
0:25:56.648,0:26:03.720
This is how they called the people of 1890[br]and you're saying that this is inaccurate,
0:26:03.720,0:26:06.457
but where do you have your proof[br]when here it is
0:26:06.457,0:26:08.816
in a Western peer-reviewed journal?"
0:26:08.816,0:26:11.078
How do you deal[br]with that kind of pushback?
0:26:12.242,0:26:13.809
(moderator) Who wants to go first?
0:26:13.809,0:26:14.894
(laughter)
0:26:14.894,0:26:17.940
(woman) I'm not sure[br]which one of us is less likely to talk.
0:26:17.940,0:26:22.849
(chuckling) Yeah.[br]This is a horrible question.
0:26:22.849,0:26:27.835
Actually, it's a wonderful question[br]at the same time.
0:26:27.835,0:26:30.735
But, for instance,[br]if you look at the Sámi...
0:26:30.735,0:26:32.586
I recommend each[br]and every one of you today
0:26:32.586,0:26:35.322
to go look at the Wikipedias[br]and look at the different ones
0:26:35.322,0:26:37.499
and see what they call the Sámi.
0:26:37.499,0:26:40.623
The Sámi call themselves Sámi--[br]sápmelaččat in Northern Sámi,
0:26:40.623,0:26:43.141
sápmelaččat in Skolt Sámi.
0:26:43.141,0:26:48.087
In the Spanish Wikipedia it's lapp,[br](chuckles sarcastically)
0:26:48.087,0:26:51.054
and lapp is a horribly racist word.
0:26:51.054,0:26:55.947
And there is a huge discussion about this[br]in the Spanish and Catalan Wikipedias
0:26:55.947,0:27:00.272
about what you can say--[br]"Well, Sámi's not in our language."
0:27:00.272,0:27:03.065
And I know it's been used in--[br]and I used to live in Barcelona.
0:27:03.065,0:27:05.464
I know it's used in Catalan, "Sámi."
0:27:05.464,0:27:08.498
And the Wikipedias have decided
0:27:08.498,0:27:11.365
they're going to use[br]the racist word instead.
0:27:11.365,0:27:16.885
Because it's not in any[br]peer-reviewed article somewhere.
0:27:16.885,0:27:18.218
So...
0:27:19.778,0:27:22.554
Yes, so... (chuckles)
0:27:22.554,0:27:25.278
But, I mean, we have[br]this session here today,
0:27:25.278,0:27:29.515
and part of it is we invite the community[br]to think about these things
0:27:29.515,0:27:31.424
and how we can...
0:27:31.424,0:27:33.175
What do you think we should do?
0:27:33.175,0:27:35.866
Part of it is what is[br]the appropriate evidence?
0:27:35.866,0:27:37.628
If it's used in one peer-reviewed journal,
0:27:37.628,0:27:40.436
do we have to collect evidence[br]somewhere else?
0:27:40.436,0:27:42.635
How do we encourage the community
0:27:42.635,0:27:47.334
to think about their responsibility[br]in this space?
0:27:47.334,0:27:52.143
And it's maybe a long process,[br]but when things are--
0:27:52.143,0:27:54.492
I think that's something,[br]especially in Commons,
0:27:54.492,0:27:56.208
when we have images,[br]I know there are lots
0:27:56.208,0:27:58.567
for North America[br]that are really problematic
0:27:58.567,0:28:01.276
and people will say,[br]"Well, it's public domain."
0:28:01.999,0:28:07.025
So I think that's a really good...[br]I don't have a quick or easy answer.
0:28:07.025,0:28:08.978
(woman) We'll need[br]to talk about that, yeah.
0:28:08.978,0:28:12.624
Yeah, I would like to be[br]a little bit optimistic with Wikidata,
0:28:12.624,0:28:15.059
because, well, I like Wikidata.
0:28:15.059,0:28:21.466
I think that the perfect side of it[br]is that we can express different views.
0:28:21.466,0:28:27.140
We can display[br]the peer-reviewed terminology,
0:28:27.140,0:28:30.951
but we can contest it with other evidence.
0:28:30.951,0:28:37.059
So I think this is... Well, it relieves[br]the responsibility to the respondent,
0:28:37.059,0:28:40.463
but still it gives new opportunities.
0:28:46.403,0:28:51.701
[inaudible crosstalk]
0:28:53.021,0:28:54.711
Sorry.
0:28:54.711,0:28:59.252
Okay, let's try this one.[br]Sorry, sorry about that.
0:28:59.252,0:29:02.039
(man) So, two things[br]I was going to mention,
0:29:02.039,0:29:06.403
but one of them is the one you just said,[br]that for situations where,
0:29:06.403,0:29:09.656
like you spoke about[br]the Canadian citizenship problem,
0:29:09.656,0:29:15.842
that can certainly be entered as,[br]you could say, "He's Canadian,
0:29:15.842,0:29:19.582
claimed by the Canadian government,"[br]or whatever this is,
0:29:19.582,0:29:22.842
and have a different thing that says[br]his citizenship is something else,
0:29:22.842,0:29:27.452
or even unknown, or even no value[br]if we don't have a nation...
0:29:28.402,0:29:31.174
if the nation is not allowed[br]by Wikidata in there,
0:29:31.174,0:29:32.424
which is a different discussion
0:29:32.424,0:29:35.456
that I guess you probably[br]will have to have at some point.
0:29:35.456,0:29:38.131
So this is perfectly doable in that sense.
0:29:38.131,0:29:40.090
The person's probably[br]still going to be unhappy
0:29:40.090,0:29:42.367
that the Canadian citizenship[br]is listed at all,
0:29:42.367,0:29:43.907
but at least you can show them that...
0:29:43.907,0:29:50.092
So it's listed as not a universal truth,[br]but only as one of the possible opinions.
0:29:50.665,0:29:52.678
Another thing I wanted[br]to bring up for a moment
0:29:52.678,0:29:54.802
is something I was talking to Kimberli--
0:29:54.802,0:29:57.978
it was kind of run through[br]through the slides
0:29:57.978,0:30:00.788
because of the time concerns.
0:30:02.188,0:30:05.940
This part was easier in the sense that,[br]okay, if you have two different things
0:30:05.940,0:30:08.747
and you can put[br]the two things there and it's okay,
0:30:08.747,0:30:09.935
but what happens for cases
0:30:09.935,0:30:13.101
where the community does not want[br]this knowledge to be public at all?
0:30:19.371,0:30:24.238
- Ah yeah, the Indigenous one.[br]- (man) Yeah.
0:30:25.813,0:30:32.964
I think there is space for us[br]to work on privacy, sensitive data,
0:30:32.964,0:30:39.747
and identifying those[br]and finding out ways
0:30:39.747,0:30:46.637
to handle content that we find,[br]or the communities find, problematic.
0:30:46.637,0:30:53.566
It's a large discussion,[br]and it has a lot of legal aspects.
0:30:53.566,0:30:55.997
It has a lot of ethical aspects,
0:30:55.997,0:31:02.636
and it ties to copyright as well[br]and the ownership of the content.
0:31:03.092,0:31:07.564
So, well, lots of things[br]to say about that.
0:31:07.564,0:31:11.990
Yeah, and I will also say[br]that you just-- [inaudible]
0:31:11.990,0:31:15.328
Copyright regimes that[br]we are familiar with are colonial.
0:31:15.328,0:31:20.800
There's actually a huge friction[br]between copyright regimes
0:31:20.800,0:31:25.223
that are used in most countries[br]and traditional knowledge.
0:31:25.223,0:31:28.227
I think we have to maybe[br]be comfortable sometimes
0:31:28.227,0:31:30.023
with deleting content,
0:31:30.023,0:31:32.284
even that we say,[br]"Well, it's public domain."
0:31:32.284,0:31:35.140
Well, public domain,[br]it does not necessarily have a meaning
0:31:35.140,0:31:38.598
in an Indigenous community[br]or in certain communities.
0:31:38.598,0:31:43.703
So what does it mean when, again,[br]when we go back to this idea
0:31:43.703,0:31:46.187
of sovereignty[br]and recognizing human rights
0:31:46.187,0:31:47.298
when we say--
0:31:47.298,0:31:52.184
I was at a meeting that[br]the Canadian government was sponsoring
0:31:52.184,0:31:55.794
on copyright regime in Canada[br]and Indigenous knowledge,
0:31:55.794,0:32:00.717
and someone said--and it just really[br]has stayed with me since that meeting--
0:32:00.717,0:32:03.047
"Human rights before property rights."
0:32:04.017,0:32:07.893
Again, if we are taking human rights[br]as our prime motivator
0:32:07.893,0:32:09.344
and prime way that we're thinking,
0:32:09.344,0:32:12.065
then some of these other questions[br]become easier to answer,
0:32:12.065,0:32:17.433
because we have to value humans[br]in a way, all humans.
0:32:17.433,0:32:20.701
So we can't say[br]that their property rights,
0:32:20.701,0:32:23.331
or something like public domain,[br]should come before that.
0:32:23.331,0:32:24.347
And it's hard.
0:32:24.347,0:32:27.931
It's hard for many of us who are[br]all about access to things,
0:32:27.931,0:32:29.292
access to documents,
0:32:29.292,0:32:31.716
because it's against[br]what we feel like we should do.
0:32:31.716,0:32:35.371
But in some ways I think[br]that's the direction
0:32:35.371,0:32:37.408
for certain kinds of content,
0:32:37.408,0:32:43.660
because a lot of things were collected[br]by anthropologists, for example,
0:32:43.660,0:32:46.781
and some of those things--[br]books or photographs--
0:32:46.781,0:32:50.491
are now in "public domain,"[br]and uploaded into Commons.
0:32:51.661,0:32:54.299
(moderator) Okay, so our session is over.
0:32:54.299,0:32:57.975
There was one more question[br]from that gentleman from the back, but...
0:32:57.975,0:33:00.002
- (man) That's fine.[br]- (moderator) Okay, sorry.
0:33:00.002,0:33:03.038
I really apologize for this.[br]So, thank you.
0:33:03.768,0:33:05.466
We'll be back tomorrow, so.
0:33:05.466,0:33:10.161
We have a meetup tomorrow,[br]at 11:30, I think.
0:33:10.161,0:33:12.779
If you want to talk more[br]about Indigenous issues, come on out.
0:33:14.049,0:33:16.030
(moderator) So... yeah!
0:33:16.030,0:33:18.102
(applause)