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Anne Milgram: Congressman,
I was about to introduce you

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and say a little more --

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Will Hurd: Hey, Anne. How are you?

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AM: Hi, how are you doing?
Thank you so much for joining us tonight.

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We're so lucky to have you here with us.

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I've already explained
that you're actually in Washington

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because you're working.

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And I was about to tell folks

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that you represent
the 23rd district of Texas.

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But maybe you could tell us
a little bit about your district

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and describe it for us.

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WH: Sure, my district in Southwest Texas
is 29 counties, two time zones,

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820 miles of border
from Eagle Pass, Texas

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all the way to El Paso.

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It takes 10 and a half hours to drive
across my district at 80 miles an hour,

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which is the speed limit
in most of the district.

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And I found out a couple of weekends ago,

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it's not the speed limit
in all the district.

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(Laughter)

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It's a 71-percent Latino district,

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and it's the district that
I've been representing

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for now my third term in Congress.

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And when you think
about the issue of the border,

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I have more border
than any other member of Congress.

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I spent nine and a half years
as an undercover officer in the CIA,

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chasing bad people all across the country.

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So when it comes to securing our border,

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it's something I know a little bit about.

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AM: One of the things I learned recently
which I hadn't known before

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is that your district
is actually the size, I think,

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of the state of Georgia?

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WH: That's right.

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It's larger than 26 states,
roughly the size of the state of Georgia.

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So it's pretty big.

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AM: So as an expert in national security

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and as a member of Congress,

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you've been called upon
to think about issues

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related to immigration,

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and in recent years,
particularly about the border wall.

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What is your reaction
to President Trump's statement

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that we need a big, beautiful wall
that would stretch across our border,

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and at 18 to 30 feet high?

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WH: I've been saying this since I first
ran for Congress back in 2009,

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this is not a new topic,

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that building a 30-foot-high
concrete structure

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from sea to shining sea

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is the most expensive
and least effective way

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to do border security.

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There are parts of the border

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where Border Patrol's
response time to a threat

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is measured in hours to days.

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If your response time
is measured in hours to days,

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then a wall is not a physical barrier.

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We should be having technology
along the border,

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we should have operation
control of our border,

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which means we know everything
that's going back and forth across it.

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We can do a lot of that with technology.

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We also need more folks
within our border patrol.

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But in addition to doing all this,

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one of the things we should be able to do
is streamline legal immigration.

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If you're going to be
a productive member of our society,

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let's get you here as quickly as possible,

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but let's do it legally.

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And if we're able to streamline that,
then you're going to see

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some of the pressures
relieved along our border

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and allow men and women in Border Patrol
to focus on human trafficking

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and drug-trafficking
organizations as well.

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AM: Congressman,

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there's also been a conversation
nationally about using emergency funds

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to build the border wall

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and taking those funds
from the United States military.

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What has your position been on that issue?

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WH: I'm one of the few Republicans up here
that has opposed that effort.

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We are just now rebuilding our military,

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and taking funds away from making sure

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that our brothers and sisters,
our wives and our husbands

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have the training and equipment they need

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in order to take care of us
in far-flung places --

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taking money away from them
is not an efficient use of our resources,

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especially if it's going to build a ...

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you know, I always say
it's a fourth-century solution

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to a 21st-century problem.

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And the reality is,
what we should be focusing on

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is some of the other root causes
of this problem,

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and many of your speakers today
have talked about that.

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Some of those key root problems
are violence, lack of economic opportunity

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and extreme poverty,

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specifically, in the Northern Triangle:
El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras.

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We should be working --

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AM: I was going to ask
what you would recommend

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United States government does
to address the underlying,

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what we call push factors, or root causes

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in those three countries
in Central America?

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WH: One of the things I learned
as an undercover officer in the CIA

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is be nice with nice guys
and tough with tough guys.

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And one of the principles
of being nice with nice guys

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is to strengthen our alliances.

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We have a number of programs
currently in these three countries

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that USAID and the State Department
is doing to address this violence issue.

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And we know, in El Salvador,

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one of the problems was
that the police were corrupt.

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And so we've worked with the Salvadorians
to purge the police,

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rehire new folks,

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use community policing tactics.

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These are tactics the men and women
in the United States of America

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and police forces

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use every single day.

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And when we did this
in certain communities,

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guess what happened?

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We saw a decrease in the violence
that was happening in those communities.

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And then we also saw

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a decrease in the number of people
that were leaving those areas

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to try to come
to the United States illegally.

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So it's a fraction of the cost
to solve a problem there,

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before it ultimately reaches our border.

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And one of the reasons
that you have violence and crime

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is political corruption

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and the lack of central governments
to protect its citizens.

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And so this is something
we should be continuing to work on.

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We shouldn't be decreasing
the amount of money that we have

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that we're sending to these countries.

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I actually think
we should be increasing it.

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I believe the first thing --
we should have done this months ago --

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is select a special representative
for the Northern Triangle.

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That's a senior diplomat

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that's going to work to make sure
we're using all of our levers of power

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to help these three countries,

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and then that we're doing it
in a coordinated effort.

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This is not just a problem
for the United States and Mexico,

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this is a problem for the entire
western hemisphere.

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So, where is the Organization
of American States?

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Where is the International
Development Bank?

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We should be having a collective plan
to address these root causes.

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And when you talk about violence,

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a lot of times, we talk
about these terrible gangs like MS-13.

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But it's also violence like
women being beaten by their husbands.

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And they have nobody else to go to,

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and they are unable to deal
with this current problem.

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So these are the types of issues

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that we should be increasing
our diplomacy,

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increasing our economic development aid.

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AM: Please, I want to take you now

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from thinking about the root causes
in Central America

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to thinking about the separation
of children and families

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in the United States.

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Starting in April 2018,

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the Trump administration began
a no-tolerance policy

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for immigrants, people seeking
refugee status, asylum

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in the United States.

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And that led to the separation
of 2,700 children

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in the first year
that that program was run.

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Now, I want to address this with you,

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and I want to separate it up front
into two different conversations.

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One of the things
that the administration did

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was file legal court papers,

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saying that one of the primary
purposes of the separations

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was to act as a deterrent

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against people coming
to the United States.

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And I want to talk for a moment
about that from a moral perspective

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and to get your views.

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WH: We shouldn't be doing it,
period. It's real simple.

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And guess what, it wasn't a deterrent.

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You only saw an increase
in the amount of illegal immigration.

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And when you're sitting,
debating a strategy,

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if somebody comes up with the idea

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of snatching a child
out of their mother's arms,

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you need to go back to the drawing board.

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This is not what the United States
of America stands for,

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this is not a Republican
or a Democrat or independent thing.

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This is a human decency thing.

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And so, using that strategy,

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it didn't achieve the ultimate purpose.

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And ultimately, the amount
of research that is done

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and the impact that
the detention of children has --

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especially if it's over 21 days --

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has on their development and their future

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is disastrous.

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So we shouldn't be trying to detain
children for any more than 21 days,

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and we should be getting children,
if they're in our custody,

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we should be taking care of them humanely,

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and making sure they're with people

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that can provide them a safe
and loving environment.

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AM: I would challenge you
even on the 21-day number,

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but for the purposes of this conversation,

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I want to follow up
on something you just said,

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which is both that it's wrong
to detain children,

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and that it's not effective.

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So the question, then, is why
does the administration continue to do it,

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when we've seen 900 additional children
separated from their parents

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since the summer of 2018?

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Why is this happening?

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WH: Well, that's something
that you'd have to ultimately

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ask the administration.

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These are questions that I've been asking.

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The Tornillo facility is in my district.

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These are buildings that are not
designed to hold anybody

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for multiple days,

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let alone children.

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We should be making sure
that if they are in our custody --

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a lot of times for
the uncompanied children,

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we don't have a ...

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we don't know of a patron or a family
member in the United States,

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and we should make sure
that they're in facilities

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where they're able to go to school

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and have proper food and health care.

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And if we're able to find
a sponsor or family member,

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let's get them into that custody,

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while they're waiting
for their immigration court case.

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That's the other issue here.

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When you have a backlog of cases --

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I think it's now 900,000 cases
that are backlogged --

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we should be able to do
an immigration hearing

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within nine months.

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I think most of the legal community
thinks that is enough time

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to do something like this,

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so that we can facilitate
whether someone, an individual,

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is able to stay in the United States

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or they're going to have to be returned
back to their home country,

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rather than being in this limbo
for five years.

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AM: If we think about
the asylum system today,

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where people are coming and saying
that they have a credible threat,

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that they will be persecuted back home,

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and we think about the fact
that on average,

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it's about two years for someone
to get an asylum hearing,

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that many people are not represented
as they go through that process,

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it makes me think about something

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that they say in the health care
space all the time,

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which is that every system
is perfectly designed

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to get the results it gets.

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And so as you think about this

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and think about how we would
redesign this system

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to not do what we're doing,

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which is years and years
of detention and separations and hardship

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for people seeking --

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and again, asylum being a lawful
United States government process --

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for people seeking
to enter our country lawfully.

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What should we do?

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WH: I tried to increase
by four billion dollars

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the amount of resources that HHS has

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in order to specifically deal,
ultimately, with children.

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I think we need more immigration judges
in order to process these cases,

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and I think we need to ensure
that folks can get representation.

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I've been able to work with a number
of lawyers up and down the border

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to make sure they are being able
to get access to the folks

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that are having these problems.

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And so this is something
that we should be able to design.

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And ultimately, when it comes to children,

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we should be doing everything we can
when they're in our custody,

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in order to take care of them.

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AM: So I have two more questions for you

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before I'm going to let you
go back to work.

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The first is about our focus
in the United States

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on the questions of immigration.

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Because if you look
at some of the statistics,

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you see that of people
who are undocumented

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in the United States,

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the majority of people
have overstayed on visas,

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they haven't come through the border.

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If you look at the people
who try to enter the country

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who are on the terrorist watch list,

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they enter overwhelmingly
through the airports

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and not through the border.

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If we look at drugs
coming into the United States,

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which has been a huge part
of this conversation,

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the vast majority of those drugs
come through our ports

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and through other points of entry,

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not through backpacks
on people crossing the border.

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So the thing I always ask

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and I always worry about with government,

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is that we focus so much on one thing,

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and my question for you
is whether we are focused

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in this conversation nationally
about the border,

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every day and every minute of every day,

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whether we're looking
completely in the wrong direction.

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WH: I would agree with your premise.

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When you have --

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let's start with the economic benefits.

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When you have 3.6 percent unemployment,

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what does that mean?

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That means you need folks
in every industry,

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whether it's agriculture
or artificial intelligence.

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So why aren't we streamlining
legal immigration?

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We should be able
to make this market based

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in order to have folks come in

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and be productive members of our society.

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When it comes to the drug issue
you're talking about,

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yes, it's in our ports of entry,

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but it's also coming in to our shores.

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Coast Guard is only able to action

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25 percent of the known
intelligence they have

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on drugs coming into our country.

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The metric that we should
be measuring [is]

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are we seeing a decrease of deaths
from overdose from drugs overseas,

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are we seeing a decrease
in illegal immigration?

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It's not how many miles of fencing
that we have ultimately built.

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And so we have benefited

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from the brain drain
of every other country

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for the last couple of decades.

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I want to see that continue,

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and I want to see that continue
with the hardworking drain.

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And I can sell you this:

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at last Congress, Pete Aguilar,
a Democrat from California, and I

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had a piece of legislation
called the USA Act:

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strong border security,
streamline legal immigration,

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fix DACA -- 1.2 million kids who have
only known the United States of America

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as their home --

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these kids, or I should say
young men and women,

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they are already Americans,

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let's not have them go through
any more uncertainty

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and make that ultimately happen.

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We had 245 people that were willing
to sign this bill into law,

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it wasn't allowed to come forward
under a Republican speaker,

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and also the current Democratic speaker
hasn't brought this bill

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through in something
that we would be able to pass.

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AM: So I want to close,

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and you are, perhaps, most famous --
I don't know if that's fair --

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but you took a road trip
with Beto O'Rourke

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from your district to Washington, DC,

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and you've become known
for reaching across the aisle

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and engaging in these
bipartisan conversations.

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And one of the things
I've seen you say repeatedly

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is to talk about how we are all united.

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And I think, when we think
about the language of immigration

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and we start hearing words
about enemies and militarization,

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I think the real question is:
How do we convince all Americans

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to understand what you say
that more unites us than divides us?

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WH: Crisscrossing a district like mine
that's truly 50-50 --

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50 percent Democrat,
50 percent Republican,

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it's been very clear to me
that way more unites us than divides us.

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And if we focus on those things
that we agree on,

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we'll all be better off.

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And I'm not going to get
a perfect attendance award

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for going to church,

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but I do remember when Jesus
was in the Second Temple

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and the Pharisees asked him
what's the most important commandment,

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and he said to "Love thy Lord God
with all your heart, mind and soul."

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But people forget he also said,
"Equally as important,

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is to love thy neighbor like thyself."

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And if we remember that
and realize what it would mean,

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and what you would
have to be going through

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to be living in a situation

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that you may send your child
on a 3,000-mile perilous journey,

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because that's what you think
the only thing for their future,

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the only thing that you can do
to make sure their future is bright,

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if we all remember that situation,

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and think what we would do
in that situation,

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I think we'd also be better off.

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AM: Thank you, Congressman.
Thank you so much for joining us tonight.

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(Applause)