0:00:11.334,0:00:13.334
[ doors clunking ]

0:00:15.419,0:00:17.710
[ doors clunking ]

0:00:20.801,0:00:25.365
[ doors clunking ]

0:00:26.686,0:00:29.714
[ doors clunking ]

0:00:31.364,0:00:34.764
[ doors clunking ]

0:00:36.920,0:00:43.520
I kind of view these exhibitions sometimes as not [br]the end of something but a beginning of some sort.

0:00:43.520,0:00:46.426
You see them for the first time sometimes.

0:00:46.426,0:00:49.821
You know, you see them out of their context. And you

0:00:50.534,0:00:54.272
can think about them differently. [br]And then you start again.

0:00:56.234,0:00:59.000
[ doors clunking ]

0:01:00.560,0:01:08.922
The activity of spinning, which is part of a number of those pieces at the Whitney show, like the "Spinning Room,"

0:01:08.922,0:01:17.989
that piece was developed about the same time that I began the early spinning tapes, where I would spin.

0:01:21.265,0:01:22.391
[ dull thud ]

0:01:28.742,0:01:31.594
I'm in this building called the [br]Broadway building. And it's

0:01:31.594,0:01:36.803
a building that USC had had that they [br]gave students, graduate students.

0:01:37.120,0:01:41.490
And it was a completely empty building. And I was the only graduate student that actually took—

0:01:41.490,0:01:47.152
The rest of them stayed in a studio down by the campus. I move up to this Broadway building, which is,

0:01:47.152,0:01:53.744
like, seven floors. And it was the induction center [br]for World War II and Vietnam.

0:01:53.744,0:02:01.326
And it was a seven-story building completely empty. And I had this whole building to do whatever I wanted in.

0:02:05.870,0:02:09.669
I think it's called "Face Painting - White Line."

0:02:10.858,0:02:14.011
I don't remember how the idea came to me.

0:02:15.000,0:02:20.286
You spend your time in a kind of ball of [br]ideas or something. And...

0:02:20.841,0:02:26.405
maybe it comes to you all at once or maybe [br]you get a glimmer and then you develop an idea.

0:02:34.000,0:02:35.844
This one...

0:02:36.795,0:02:43.616
I had done-- Just prior to this, [br]I'd done-- I'd whipped a wall with paint.

0:02:44.092,0:02:47.783
The paint was a combination of motor oil and paint.

0:02:53.622,0:02:55.337
[ paint drips ]

0:02:56.211,0:03:00.164
Although, I think I really wanted to paint [br]the whole window black.

0:03:01.115,0:03:04.970
I didn't go that far. That was [br]the plan, but it didn't happen.

0:03:04.970,0:03:10.437
Ran out of paint, and that was it. I didn't go back and finish it.

0:03:12.313,0:03:14.811
The windows stayed like that for years.

0:03:18.906,0:03:23.804
And the tapes were sort of, in the beginning, were very much about me,

0:03:23.804,0:03:29.495
as the artist, just using what's ever in [br]the room; the architecture, the doors.

0:03:29.495,0:03:30.958
Very minimal.

0:03:31.856,0:03:37.638
With pieces, like in "Sailor's Meat," I cover my head with, like, tape or

0:03:38.272,0:03:42.547
butter or something. Like, the first thing that happens is to cover the face.

0:03:52.851,0:03:59.347
Where the other ones where I'm spinning, [br]it's me, Paul McCarthy, making an artwork.

0:03:59.347,0:04:05.581
You see my face. It's clear who I am. In [br]these other ones, the persona happens.

0:04:05.581,0:04:11.254
And the persona usually started with a [br]kind of mask or some sort of costume.

0:04:11.255,0:04:13.704
- One, two, three.

0:04:13.704,0:04:16.128
Hello, how are we doing today?

0:04:16.628,0:04:20.000
Wild girls.

0:04:20.000,0:04:21.452
Anything.

0:04:21.452,0:04:25.627
I was kind of a class clown. And so

0:04:26.499,0:04:32.467
there was always a sort of performative-- Doing, like, a kind of--

0:04:32.467,0:04:36.380
Making people laugh or [br]something like that, you know, when I was in school.

0:04:36.380,0:04:44.539
I-I-I’ve never really equated that with [br]the performance work I began to do in the '60s.

0:04:47.859,0:04:48.697
- Okay.

0:04:51.087,0:04:53.087
Okay [ clears throat ]

0:04:54.297,0:04:55.425
What!

0:04:55.425,0:04:57.999
What, I don't wanna think about you.

0:05:00.245,0:05:01.734
Just try.

0:05:02.590,0:05:04.590
Try and listen.

0:05:04.590,0:05:06.631
Try listen to what I have to say.

0:05:06.631,0:05:09.234
Don't pay much attention.

0:05:09.714,0:05:11.714
Try to stick with it.

0:05:12.712,0:05:13.946
Try to listen.

0:05:14.330,0:05:16.726
This is try to listen.

0:05:17.027,0:05:20.401
Try to move, try to think about...

0:05:23.028,0:05:27.829
Oh no, I interfered, interfered.

0:05:28.081,0:05:30.081
Try not to think.

0:05:30.081,0:05:32.774
[ mumbles indistinctly ]

0:05:32.960,0:05:38.801
The one thing I was really, as a kid-- I was [br]really involved with

0:05:38.801,0:05:42.603
constructing...building,

0:05:42.920,0:05:47.024
like, huts, children's huts and kids' huts,

0:05:47.526,0:05:51.761
you know, and tree houses and underground—

0:05:51.761,0:05:55.800
Like, I spent-- That was a big part of my--I think—

0:05:55.800,0:06:03.787
I grew up where you could do that pretty easy, because there was a rural area right where we lived, so it was easy to build

0:06:04.104,0:06:09.840
huts. And there were always subdivisions being built around, [br]so you could get the wood that you needed.

0:06:10.263,0:06:14.777
So there's a whole thing about [br]constructing architecture, I think.

0:06:17.353,0:06:24.603
[ gargles loudly ]

0:06:25.534,0:06:33.300
'87, I got asked to do a piece on [br]a cable station. And I did "Family Tyranny."

0:06:33.973,0:06:36.316
- He hasn't done what he was supposed to do.

0:06:36.316,0:06:38.683
He's been a very bad boy.

0:06:39.161,0:06:41.874
Hey, wear this, wear that, boy!

0:06:42.154,0:06:44.154
That's what you need to wear.

0:06:44.154,0:06:45.949
[ man whimpers ]

0:06:46.600,0:06:51.255
It was also at that point that I knew Mike [br]Kelley but didn't know him really well.

0:06:51.255,0:06:56.393
We'd kind of met a few times. and I asked him to [br]be in this piece.

0:06:57.740,0:07:02.860
I liked his work. I thought there was a connection. [br]So he just came to the  studio.

0:07:03.600,0:07:06.122
It was all improvised, the whole thing.

0:07:06.235,0:07:07.812
- No! [br]Hey boy!

0:07:07.812,0:07:08.993
Boy, boy!

0:07:08.993,0:07:11.240
[ man screams hysterically ]

0:07:11.240,0:07:17.896
I remember at the time, you know, having children [br]and then seeing myself...

0:07:22.255,0:07:27.172
Almost standing, you know, in a [br]relationship with one--

0:07:27.339,0:07:31.073
With one of my kids [br]or both of them, standing...

0:07:33.266,0:07:41.980
Standing in front of them, being in the same posture and [br]saying the same thing that my father had said to me.

0:07:41.980,0:07:48.540
Although it seems to be about the conditioning [br]of children, it's actually more of

0:07:49.253,0:07:53.988
sort of that we are that. We are conditioned into our reality.

0:07:54.754,0:08:00.198
I mean, it was kind of like struggling and thinking about those things. And then this piece happened.

0:08:00.938,0:08:10.313
And then just sort of extrapolating that into who I am and, you know, breaking out of a conditioned attitude.

0:08:10.313,0:08:11.664
- Calm down, here. Calm down.

0:08:11.665,0:08:13.216
- Time to go to school, Dad.

0:08:13.216,0:08:14.868
- No son, don't go to school.

0:08:14.868,0:08:16.680
Don't leave your dad here alone.

0:08:16.680,0:08:21.880
[ Damon McCarthy ] My Dad and I had an ongoing relationship since  I was a kid. We always did things together,

0:08:21.880,0:08:28.600
from playing baseball to skiing to [br]building the house to helping him,

0:08:28.600,0:08:32.840
as a kid, kind of playing and making art when he [br]was in the garage. It was kind of like I always

0:08:32.840,0:08:36.498
felt like that was a part of my world. So

0:08:36.498,0:08:41.891
it was not a-- there's never a moment where we feel like it's not

0:08:41.891,0:08:46.127
working together as much as we're doing [br]something together. And it was kind of like,

0:08:46.920,0:08:51.158
seemed right that we were supposed to [br]kind of create this madhouse thing.

0:08:51.158,0:08:52.636
[ hysterical screaming ]

0:08:52.636,0:08:54.636
- Stop it! Stop it!

0:08:56.006,0:08:57.002
- Oh yes!

0:08:57.002,0:08:58.315
[ laughs menacingly ]

0:08:58.315,0:08:59.760
- Oh yes!

0:08:59.760,0:09:04.568
[ Damon ] Since I was kind of young, I had, like, a [br]fascination with the "Pirates of the Caribbean" ride.

0:09:05.413,0:09:11.049
I talked to him about making a pirate movie [br]and kind of turning this ride into a movie.

0:09:11.234,0:09:12.151
- Captain!

0:09:12.872,0:09:13.630
- Yes, sir.

0:09:13.863,0:09:16.360
- Aboard![br]- Aye-aye, sir!

0:09:16.360,0:09:20.760
[ DAMON ] Then one thing kind of turned into another. And [br]then we started sitting down and talking about it,

0:09:20.760,0:09:27.955
and it unfolded into something that was kind [br]of more than what I thought it would do.

0:09:28.800,0:09:32.668
It always seemed like what Hollywood was trying [br]to do with a movie but then could never do it.

0:09:34.068,0:09:37.738
[ gaudy laughter ]

0:09:39.385,0:09:43.760
[ Paul McCarthy ] You know, as artists, [br]you think in terms of space,

0:09:43.760,0:09:52.480
like an object goes in a space. so it's much more [br]likely for me to think in terms of the setting

0:09:52.480,0:09:56.860
for the video as a space [br]where it's presented.

0:09:56.860,0:10:00.482
I don't think single channel, [br]where you sit in face it.

0:10:00.693,0:10:07.420
In these settings, you ended up with 20 [br]channels in the same room. They become like big paintings.

0:10:09.613,0:10:20.531
Sometimes I think this is closer to [br]painting than it is to filmmaking, which thinks narrative,

0:10:20.531,0:10:25.337
where the painting constructs maybe a [br]narrative in the frame,

0:10:25.337,0:10:31.248
but it's a different type of narrative than [br]what we think of as film narrative.

0:10:32.252,0:10:41.182
And that's the difference between making art and making entertainment, is I don't care.

0:10:41.182,0:10:47.022
It's not the same situation. It's the explorations of ideas.

0:10:47.022,0:10:51.672
[ eerie murmuring ]

0:10:51.672,0:10:57.077
I’m not trying to [br]satisfy an audience.

0:10:57.077,0:11:00.996
And that's where this thing where art[br]is always equated with this audience--

0:11:00.996,0:11:06.289
and what is your responsibility to the audience? My responsibility is to the ideas.

0:11:24.149,0:11:31.404
Some of it really is just about letting something go and then finding something in there.

0:11:31.404,0:11:37.870
And then some of it is really about directing it and knowing pretty long ahead that that's what's gonna happen.

0:11:42.136,0:11:49.744
It's, the process of making a sculpture begins to be [br]interesting and the obsession to get it right.

0:11:50.935,0:11:52.841
- That's not bad.[br]- Okay.

0:11:52.947,0:11:55.534
- Sure.[br]- If I'm repairing the sound.

0:11:55.534,0:11:57.137
[ hammer bangs ]

0:11:57.137,0:11:59.724
- Oh, just kidding![br]- Yeah, we attached it.

0:11:59.724,0:12:02.780
- That's right, but broke.[br]- Yeah, that wasn't polluted.

0:12:02.780,0:12:05.440
- That's okay, that's totally okay.[br]- Okay.

0:12:06.120,0:12:09.373
[ PAUL MCCARTHY ] I’m actually [br]interested in Greek sculpture,

0:12:09.373,0:12:15.000
this notion that the god is endowed [br]in the sculpture itself.

0:12:15.814,0:12:23.500
Sculpting not for the point of making a shape but for the point of, like-- like, as if you're stroking an arm.

0:12:25.719,0:12:28.943
I was asked to [br]do a piece for the World's Fair.

0:12:28.943,0:12:38.119
and I came up with this idea of making inflatable [br]80-foot Pinocchio sitting on a stack of books.

0:12:40.153,0:12:44.464
Instead of having a Pinocchio head, [br]I put a cube head on it.

0:12:48.189,0:12:53.966
I was really into the aesthetic of [br]this vinyl full of air.

0:12:55.208,0:13:04.011
I mean, there is something about being able to make this giant object that is ephemeral in a way and that...

0:13:04.777,0:13:08.624
it blows up. It's full of air.

0:13:08.624,0:13:17.935
Kind of exists there for a short period of time and then kind of makes an image for people and then is gone.

0:13:22.796,0:13:27.376
A lot of what goes [br]on is a lot about the practice of making art.

0:13:27.376,0:13:33.710
My work seems to be about tearing down, [br]opening up conventions, I guess.

0:13:36.220,0:13:44.299
These individuals that affect the world, in one way, [br]they're real. In another way,

0:13:44.299,0:13:50.997
I saw them like Mickey Mouse or Santa Claus, [br]like some sort of fabricated sculpture.

0:13:57.787,0:14:05.283
Pieces recycle into other pieces. Pieces [br]get used 'cause they're in the studio.

0:14:06.261,0:14:12.481
Like the Hummels go on for years. [br]The Hummel comes from Bavaria.

0:14:12.481,0:14:18.607
It's a ceramic figurine that's mass [br]produced. Lots of people collect them.

0:14:19.294,0:14:22.778
Some people had sent me [br]Hummels over the years.

0:14:23.227,0:14:28.531
So I would end up with these Hummels. [br]And one day, I just decided to make one.

0:14:29.376,0:14:36.485
And then they kind of [br]clicked as a forum that I would

0:14:37.648,0:14:42.924
sort of just say, "Make this Hummel," or, "Let's [br]make this Hummel." And then it

0:14:42.924,0:14:48.013
would start forming. And then it would [br]begin to abstract.

0:14:50.285,0:14:56.480
It just keeps going. You know, there's always one or two [br]or three or four or five going on,

0:14:56.480,0:14:58.463
you know, at different scales.

0:15:01.131,0:15:08.248
I’m not really, at this point, going out of my way to go pick ones. it doesn't seem necessary.

0:15:08.856,0:15:10.887
Like, any of them will do.

0:15:12.895,0:15:17.260
Something to act on, something to...

0:15:18.158,0:15:24.258
to alter and to shift, like this [br]way of working through ideas.

0:15:26.953,0:15:30.148
- Question is how far to--[br]- Smash it in there?

0:15:31.727,0:15:33.489
- Just take that sucker.

0:15:37.760,0:15:38.624
- Like that?

0:15:38.624,0:15:41.945
- I think that's maybe too long.

0:15:41.945,0:15:43.945
- Yeah, but we pound it all the way in.

0:15:46.528,0:15:52.669
[ MCCARTHY ] Also what's going on with the "Hummel" is the nature of the sculpture itself, which is

0:15:52.669,0:15:56.826
this idea of purity and cleanliness.

0:15:57.460,0:16:02.170
I mean, I kind of [br]believe that hygiene is the religion of fascism.

0:16:07.454,0:16:09.718
- I think we just do it.[br]- Just do it

0:16:09.877,0:16:13.509
- You're gonna have to hold the head, [br]but just think.

0:16:14.835,0:16:17.759
[ hammer taps ]

0:16:18.367,0:16:28.578
[ hammer taps ]

0:16:29.240,0:16:35.789
[ MCCARTHY ]  Between two people and myself, the sculpting may go on for weeks.

0:16:36.106,0:16:41.574
And it's always about adjusting this, adjusting that, adjusting this.

0:16:44.771,0:16:46.032
- More?

0:16:47.587,0:16:54.792
[ hammer taps ]

0:16:55.296,0:16:56.213
- No.

0:16:57.544,0:16:59.544
I don't think so, I think I'm hitting foam.

0:16:59.729,0:17:01.291
- Well, keep going then.

0:17:02.242,0:17:05.693
[ hammer taps ]

0:17:06.730,0:17:10.385
It's very [br]spontaneous. And I know that there are people watching.

0:17:10.385,0:17:14.756
And the fact that they're watching [br]is a reason to do it.

0:17:15.470,0:17:19.640
And it's kind of like that moment where, yeah, let's see.

0:17:19.640,0:17:23.910
All this time has gone into [br]something, and then you destroy it.

0:17:23.910,0:17:26.169
You destroy the effort.

0:17:28.890,0:17:30.313
- Okay.

0:17:30.313,0:17:33.582
[ MCCARTHY ] I can't tell you why.

0:17:33.582,0:17:39.573
The why and the answers to why it's [br]being done, it's in the work.

0:17:39.573,0:17:44.447
It’s not in what we say here, because...

0:17:45.292,0:17:53.446
And certainly not what we say here when we try to answer a question in 20 minutes to something that

0:17:54.018,0:17:58.134
is intentionally and purposefully entangled.

0:17:58.451,0:18:02.450
[ electronic music ]

0:18:17.725,0:18:21.680
[ ANNOUNCER ] To learn more about [br]Art21: “Art in the Twenty-First Century"

0:18:21.680,0:18:23.839
and its educational resources,

0:18:23.839,0:18:27.266
please visit us online at: [br]PBS.org

0:18:30.792,0:18:36.412
Art21: “Art in the Twenty-First Century” [br]is available on Blu-Ray and DVD.

0:18:36.412,0:18:38.792
The companion book is also available.

0:18:38.792,0:18:42.145
To order, visit us online at: shopPBS.org

0:18:42.145,0:18:46.159
or call PBS Home Video at: [br]1-800-PLAY-PBS