[Script Info]
Title: 
[Events]
Format: Layer, Start, End, Style, Name, MarginL, MarginR, MarginV, Effect, Text
Dialogue: 0,0:00:14.04,0:00:15.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, I'm going to start,
Dialogue: 0,0:00:15.91,0:00:19.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm actually going to talk about\Ncensorship in the arts,
Dialogue: 0,0:00:19.11,0:00:21.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,censorship in Utopia,\Nlooking at the experiences
Dialogue: 0,0:00:21.64,0:00:23.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the ancient and modern world.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:23.84,0:00:27.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I want to begin\Nwith one of my favourite poems
Dialogue: 0,0:00:27.35,0:00:31.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,by the American poet Wallace Stevens,\Nand this is
Dialogue: 0,0:00:31.37,0:00:35.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,'The Man with the Blue Guitar' --\Nsome of you may know it.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:35.71,0:00:38.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I won't give you any introduction to it,\Njust see what you think,
Dialogue: 0,0:00:38.53,0:00:41.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this is a few stanzas.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:41.39,0:00:45.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The man bent over his guitar,\NA shearsman of sorts.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:45.41,0:00:47.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The day was green.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:47.43,0:00:52.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They said, 'You have a blue guitar,\NYou do not play things as they are.'
Dialogue: 0,0:00:52.92,0:00:58.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The man replied, 'Things as they are \NAre changed upon the blue guitar.'
Dialogue: 0,0:00:58.12,0:01:02.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And they said then, 'But play, you must,\NA tune beyond us, yet ourselves,
Dialogue: 0,0:01:02.21,0:01:08.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,A tune upon the blue guitar\NOf things exactly as they are.'
Dialogue: 0,0:01:08.21,0:01:12.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I cannot bring a world quite round,\NAlthough I patch it as I can.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:12.94,0:01:17.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I sing a hero's head, large eye\NAnd bearded bronze, but not a man,
Dialogue: 0,0:01:17.31,0:01:23.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Although I patch him as I can\NAnd reach through him almost to man.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:23.11,0:01:28.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If to serenade almost to man\NIs to miss, by that, things as they are,
Dialogue: 0,0:01:28.87,0:01:33.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Say that it is the serenade \NOf a man that plays a blue guitar."
Dialogue: 0,0:01:33.86,0:01:39.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We'll come back to another stanza of that\Nat the end of this talk.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:39.42,0:01:44.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now one of the many interesting things\Nabout Wallace Stevens's poem
Dialogue: 0,0:01:44.08,0:01:48.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is that Stevens was fascinated by\Nthe philosophy of the Ancient Greek
Dialogue: 0,0:01:48.98,0:01:54.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,philosopher Plato writing\Nabout the 370's, 380's BC.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:54.74,0:01:59.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,He's intrigued by Plato's\Nphilosophy of ideas,
Dialogue: 0,0:01:59.56,0:02:01.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which we will come on to you later.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:01.44,0:02:05.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it seems to me that these lines are\Nalmost certainly a meditation
Dialogue: 0,0:02:05.51,0:02:10.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on the attack on art and artists\Nmade by the character of Socrates
Dialogue: 0,0:02:11.32,0:02:14.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in Plato's dialogue 'The Republic'.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:14.09,0:02:16.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,As you know, and this is also\Na point we'll come back to,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:16.85,0:02:21.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Plato never writes in his own voice,\Nbut always through various characters
Dialogue: 0,0:02:21.38,0:02:25.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in his dramatic dialogues,\NSocrates often being the main one.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:25.48,0:02:30.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's important, we'll find out,\Nthat they are not the same person.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:35.07,0:02:41.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, those who live in this green world\Nthat Wallace Stevens describes
Dialogue: 0,0:02:43.38,0:02:46.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are angry with the man\Nwho has the temerity
Dialogue: 0,0:02:46.85,0:02:52.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to break up this monochrome greenness\Nand play a blue guitar.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:52.63,0:02:55.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The people who are angry\Nin Stevens's poems
Dialogue: 0,0:02:55.19,0:02:58.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are those who are voicing\Nthe attacks on artists
Dialogue: 0,0:02:58.73,0:03:00.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which Socrates puts forward,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:00.48,0:03:04.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the man with the blue guitar\Nis, of course, the artist.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:04.47,0:03:06.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, what I propose to do today
Dialogue: 0,0:03:06.56,0:03:10.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is to very briefly run through,\Nthe speed of light,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:10.43,0:03:12.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,some of the main arguments
Dialogue: 0,0:03:12.80,0:03:16.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,made against art and artists\Nin the dialogue 'The Republic',
Dialogue: 0,0:03:16.26,0:03:21.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in which Socrates sets up\Nan ideally just state, or so he claims.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:21.61,0:03:24.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I want to see\Nif any of the charges made
Dialogue: 0,0:03:24.49,0:03:29.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have anything to tell us today,\Nwhether we can learn anything from them,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:29.93,0:03:34.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,even if we want to reject\Nthe metaphysical basis
Dialogue: 0,0:03:34.05,0:03:37.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on which they're grounded,\Nas I imagine many of us will,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:37.24,0:03:41.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I doubt if many people here are believers\Nin Plato's theory of Forms.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:41.96,0:03:44.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I once had a student who began an essay,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:44.64,0:03:46.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,'Last night when I saw\Nthe Form of the Good',
Dialogue: 0,0:03:46.60,0:03:49.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which I felt was cheating somewhat.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:49.23,0:03:52.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I think we have a lot to learn,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:52.51,0:03:55.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I'm going to say that,\Nincluding myself, even those of us
Dialogue: 0,0:03:55.88,0:04:00.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who are wary about the notion\Nof censorship in the arts,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:00.57,0:04:06.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think we can still find a lot to gain\Nfrom why Socrates is so nervous
Dialogue: 0,0:04:07.45,0:04:10.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about the arts and why he thinks\Nthey are so dangerous.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:10.95,0:04:12.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now incidentally,\Nfor the sake of brevity,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:12.95,0:04:17.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm just going to call the character\Nof Socrates in 'The Republic' Socrates,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:17.47,0:04:21.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but by that I don't mean\Nthe historical figure of Socrates,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:21.64,0:04:24.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm just using that as shorthand.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:25.47,0:04:29.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, in Books II and III of this dialogue\Ncalled 'The Republic',
Dialogue: 0,0:04:29.26,0:04:33.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in which Socrates outlines\Nthe basic foundations for an ideal state,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:34.43,0:04:36.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,also called The Republic,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:36.48,0:04:42.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,his first attack comes in the context\Nof a discussion of the education
Dialogue: 0,0:04:43.51,0:04:46.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the young guardians,\Nby which he means
Dialogue: 0,0:04:46.77,0:04:49.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,both the future rulers of this state
Dialogue: 0,0:04:49.11,0:04:52.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and also the future military force\Nin this state,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:52.17,0:04:55.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the two guardian classes.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:55.70,0:04:59.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And in Books II and III Socrates\Nadvocates extreme censorship
Dialogue: 0,0:04:59.87,0:05:05.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of Homer and Greek tragedians such as\NSophocles and Aeschylus.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:05.80,0:05:10.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Firstly, he thinks that they,\Nthe poets, then the dramatists,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:11.64,0:05:15.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,misrepresent the nature of the divine,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:15.01,0:05:18.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,interesting attack,\Ngiven recent controversies
Dialogue: 0,0:05:18.18,0:05:20.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about Danish cartoons and the like.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:20.40,0:05:24.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And he says that these artists repeat\Nthe old myths and legends
Dialogue: 0,0:05:24.78,0:05:29.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about Zeus and Aphrodite and Dionysus,\Nin which, of course, as you know,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:29.53,0:05:32.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the gods behave absolutely appallingly.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:32.74,0:05:36.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They lie, they cheat,\Nthey steal, they get drunk,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:36.05,0:05:40.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they lust after other people's wives,\Nthey kill family members,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:40.99,0:05:45.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and they sleep, of course, with\Nanyone and anything that moves.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:45.34,0:05:49.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,God, says Socrates, is good\Nand is the cause only of good;
Dialogue: 0,0:05:50.37,0:05:53.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Homer and the others\Nhave got god wrong.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:53.80,0:05:57.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That's his first claim,\Nhe wants to excise all those passages
Dialogue: 0,0:05:58.55,0:06:02.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from Homer and the dramatists\Nwhich get god wrong.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:03.06,0:06:05.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Secondly, art needs to be censured,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:05.69,0:06:09.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because it represents,\Nappeals to and nurtures
Dialogue: 0,0:06:09.42,0:06:14.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,dangerous emotions such as lust and greed\Nand anger and aggression,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:14.40,0:06:18.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which should be left, says Socrates,\Nto wither and die on the vine,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:18.58,0:06:20.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not fed and nurtured.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:20.91,0:06:25.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There's an interesting contrast here\Nwith Aristotle, of course,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:25.54,0:06:27.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,writing a generation after Plato,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:27.88,0:06:31.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with Aristotle's view,\Nwho thinks that by watching
Dialogue: 0,0:06:31.41,0:06:35.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and acting out the darker aspects\Nof the human psyche,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:35.50,0:06:39.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we can purge ourselves\Nof such murky desires,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:39.19,0:06:42.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,his famous notion of catharsis;
Dialogue: 0,0:06:42.03,0:06:46.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,artistic representation is catharsis\Nor cleansing, purging.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:47.27,0:06:50.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This is a debate we may want to come\Nback to in the discussion,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:50.92,0:06:53.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and it's interesting\Nthat these two polar views
Dialogue: 0,0:06:53.25,0:06:56.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,appear in the ancient world.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:56.30,0:06:58.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Of course, it's impossible to prove,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:58.13,0:07:02.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's hard enough to ever make a case\Nthat a particular act of violence
Dialogue: 0,0:07:02.80,0:07:06.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is directly caused by, say,\Na particular film,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:06.20,0:07:10.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,even if the perpetrator of the act\Nof violence is going around dressed
Dialogue: 0,0:07:10.23,0:07:13.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as the anti-hero of the film.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:13.19,0:07:15.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Of course, it's even harder,\Nit's impossible
Dialogue: 0,0:07:15.72,0:07:18.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to know how many crimes\Nhave been prevented,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:18.94,0:07:24.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because somebody, through watching\Nor acting out a certain work of art,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:24.92,0:07:27.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was able to purge themselves
Dialogue: 0,0:07:27.61,0:07:31.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of certain very dangerous desires\Nthat they had.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:31.25,0:07:35.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, we may feel\Nwhen we are reading Books II and III
Dialogue: 0,0:07:35.04,0:07:38.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that the censorship rules\Nare too Draconian, of course we may,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:38.92,0:07:41.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but we may still also feel, well,\NSocrates has a point.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:41.97,0:07:45.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We're talking about the education\Nof very young children
Dialogue: 0,0:07:45.82,0:07:49.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with plastic, imitative minds;
Dialogue: 0,0:07:50.03,0:07:53.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,he wants to give them\Ngood positive role models,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:53.00,0:07:56.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,before their reason has developed\Nand can start to question and assess
Dialogue: 0,0:07:56.84,0:07:58.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the material they're presented with.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:58.80,0:08:03.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, we may feel in principle it's not\Nso terrible to censor the arts,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:03.24,0:08:05.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,even if he takes it too far,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:05.54,0:08:09.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,given the context, given the age group.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:09.62,0:08:13.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, by the time we get\Nto the next attack on art,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:13.27,0:08:16.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the final book of 'The Republic',\NBook X,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:16.48,0:08:20.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we're into much more disturbing territory,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:20.66,0:08:24.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because here Socrates advocates\Nnot just censoring art,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:25.28,0:08:27.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but banning, almost all art,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:27.89,0:08:32.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,just getting rid of art from\Nthe ideal state in almost its entirety.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:33.12,0:08:37.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it's not just children that are being\Nconsidered here, but adults.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:37.07,0:08:39.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And, of course, a charge often made
Dialogue: 0,0:08:39.06,0:08:43.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is that Socrates is treating\Nadults as children.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:43.79,0:08:46.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, the reason for the strengthening\Nof this attack
Dialogue: 0,0:08:46.70,0:08:49.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is the psychology and metaphysics\Nthat's gone on
Dialogue: 0,0:08:49.49,0:08:53.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in 'The Republic'\Nin the intervening books, in IV to IX.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:53.08,0:08:56.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And, again, to skip politely through
Dialogue: 0,0:08:56.27,0:08:59.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,some of the most important chapters\Nin philosophy ever written,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:59.82,0:09:02.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,very, very briefly in Book IV,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:02.47,0:09:07.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we are told that the human psyche\Nis composed of three separate parts:
Dialogue: 0,0:09:08.18,0:09:12.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The appetitive part which desires food,\Ndrink, sex, material goods,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:13.24,0:09:15.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the money needed to acquire them;
Dialogue: 0,0:09:15.37,0:09:19.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a spirited part which desires\Nworldly honours and success and victory;
Dialogue: 0,0:09:20.07,0:09:24.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and a rational part which desires\Ntruth and reality.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:25.05,0:09:28.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Interesting that the rational part has\Nits own desires;
Dialogue: 0,0:09:28.74,0:09:31.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the distinction is not between\Nreason and the emotions,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:31.44,0:09:35.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but between rational\Nand non-rational desires,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:35.05,0:09:37.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and that's important.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:37.22,0:09:40.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And our virtue, but also our flourishing\Nand our happiness,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:40.77,0:09:45.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,consist in the proper balance between\Nthese three parts of our psyche,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:46.44,0:09:50.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in what Plato calls interior harmony\Nor mental health,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:51.13,0:09:53.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the phrase that Socrates uses.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:53.11,0:09:55.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And this will only occur if our reason
Dialogue: 0,0:09:55.34,0:09:59.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and its desires for truth and reality\Nare in control.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:59.49,0:10:03.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then in Books V to VII\Nwe learn a lot more
Dialogue: 0,0:10:03.01,0:10:05.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about the nature\Nof this truth and reality
Dialogue: 0,0:10:05.58,0:10:10.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that the rational part seeks,\Nnamely the so-called Forms of the Good
Dialogue: 0,0:10:10.33,0:10:14.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the Beautiful and the Just;\Nabstract, unchanging, eternal entities
Dialogue: 0,0:10:15.54,0:10:18.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which are both the cause\Nand the explanation
Dialogue: 0,0:10:18.05,0:10:21.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of all the things on this Earth.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:21.04,0:10:25.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And everything on this Earth, in this\Nsensible phenomenal world around us,
Dialogue: 0,0:10:25.01,0:10:29.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are merely copies of the Forms --\N'Only semi-real', says Socrates.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:30.54,0:10:35.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, this provides the basis\Nfor the major attack on art in Book X,
Dialogue: 0,0:10:36.18,0:10:39.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because works of art are now\Nsaid to be both untrue,
Dialogue: 0,0:10:40.09,0:10:43.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the sense that they are merely\Ncopies of copies --
Dialogue: 0,0:10:44.06,0:10:45.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,an idea that we could come back to --
Dialogue: 0,0:10:45.91,0:10:49.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and also hugely damaging to the harmony\Nand health and happiness
Dialogue: 0,0:10:49.80,0:10:51.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the individual psyche,
Dialogue: 0,0:10:51.60,0:10:54.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in that they represent,\Nappeal to and nurture
Dialogue: 0,0:10:54.57,0:10:58.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not just dangerous, aggressive emotions
Dialogue: 0,0:10:58.07,0:11:02.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but non-rational emotions\Nand desires in general.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:02.20,0:11:06.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that will upset the balance\Nof the psyche in which reason
Dialogue: 0,0:11:06.84,0:11:10.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and rational desires should rule.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:11.47,0:11:16.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, by now almost all artists are going\Nto be escorted politely, but firmly,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:17.07,0:11:20.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to the borders of the state\Nand sent on their way.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:20.19,0:11:24.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We're left, apparently, we can have\Nhymns to the gods
Dialogue: 0,0:11:24.20,0:11:28.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and paeans to good men,\Nit sounds absolutely dire.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:28.69,0:11:32.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now it's true that Socrates\Nisn't comfortable about this.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:33.42,0:11:38.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,He says that it really pains him\Nto remove Homer,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:39.19,0:11:42.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and what he calls\Nthe poetry of pleasure
Dialogue: 0,0:11:42.00,0:11:44.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that Homer\Nand the other dramatists provide,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:44.77,0:11:48.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because, says Socrates,\Nhe has loved and revered Homer
Dialogue: 0,0:11:48.02,0:11:50.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,since he was a boy.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:50.01,0:11:52.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And he issues us a challenge.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:52.33,0:11:57.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,He says that if anyone can show that this\Nkind of poetry is not only pleasurable
Dialogue: 0,0:11:57.31,0:12:02.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but also useful and beneficial,\Nreally interesting use of language,
Dialogue: 0,0:12:02.56,0:12:06.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,he would gladly welcome it back.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:06.11,0:12:11.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, when I first came across this attack\Non the arts, when I was about 19,
Dialogue: 0,0:12:12.39,0:12:15.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I was very shocked and disturbed\Nfor two reasons.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:15.26,0:12:19.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,One, I had a very romanticized vision
Dialogue: 0,0:12:19.76,0:12:24.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the artist as an almost holy figure\Noutside the confines
Dialogue: 0,0:12:25.30,0:12:28.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of normal, moral conventions\Nand expectations.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:28.65,0:12:32.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I wanted my artists\Nto live like Baudelaire or whatever.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:34.03,0:12:38.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And in common with this, \Nthis romanticized ideal,
Dialogue: 0,0:12:38.28,0:12:42.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think, was part\Nof a more general ethical framework
Dialogue: 0,0:12:43.19,0:12:47.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in which I wanted to defend art\Non the basis of freedom of expression,
Dialogue: 0,0:12:47.98,0:12:51.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I thought that freedom of expression\Nwas so important
Dialogue: 0,0:12:51.12,0:12:55.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because of a basic human right\Nto freedom of expression.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:55.78,0:12:59.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So my whole language, though\NI wasn't really aware of it at the time,
Dialogue: 0,0:12:59.67,0:13:04.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was couched in the notion\Nof an ethics of rights.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:05.59,0:13:11.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, both those visions, and both\Nthose arguments in defence of art,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:11.43,0:13:14.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,would not have been available\Nto an Ancient Greek.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:14.28,0:13:17.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Firstly, at the time Plato's writing,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:17.07,0:13:20.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there was no conception\Nof fine art as such,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:20.16,0:13:22.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as distinct from cobbling\Nor weaving or what...,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:22.93,0:13:24.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,well, weaving, of course,\Nwe would say can be art,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:24.84,0:13:28.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but there was no distinction\Nbetween an art and a craft.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:28.40,0:13:32.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The same word 'techne' is applied to both.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:32.06,0:13:34.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In terms of the technology,\NI hope this fulfils
Dialogue: 0,0:13:34.84,0:13:38.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the first of the TED acronyms.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:39.24,0:13:42.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And, as such,\Nthe whole notion of a poet,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:42.33,0:13:46.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the word for poet, poetes,\Nit just means a maker in Ancient Greece.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:46.88,0:13:52.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And again, a poet is no more\Nor less a maker than a cobbler.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:52.55,0:13:55.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Secondly, of course, there's no language,\Nas far as we can tell,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:55.95,0:13:58.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of human rights in Ancient Greece.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:58.92,0:14:01.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They don't phrase their ethics\Nin that way;
Dialogue: 0,0:14:01.88,0:14:05.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this is a post-Kantian move, in fact.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:05.56,0:14:09.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The closest any Ancient Greek gets\Nto a notion of a universal right
Dialogue: 0,0:14:09.51,0:14:12.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is Aristotle when he says that\Nhe thinks humans
Dialogue: 0,0:14:12.26,0:14:15.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have a more or less\Nsort of universal right
Dialogue: 0,0:14:15.37,0:14:17.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to hunt animals for food.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:17.57,0:14:20.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so in the context\Nof a modern debate on human rights,
Dialogue: 0,0:14:20.49,0:14:23.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we might say that's rather\Nmissing the point.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:23.21,0:14:26.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The point, you know, we wouldn't\Nwant to say that our sole right
Dialogue: 0,0:14:26.48,0:14:29.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was a right to kill animals for food.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:29.61,0:14:32.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The language they use,\Nyou will have noticed,
Dialogue: 0,0:14:32.05,0:14:34.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is that of usefulness and benefit.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:34.75,0:14:39.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Socrates says, poets, he would welcome\Nthem back, he wants them to come back,
Dialogue: 0,0:14:39.41,0:14:42.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if it can be shown that poetry and art
Dialogue: 0,0:14:42.37,0:14:46.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is beneficial both to the soul\Nof the individual
Dialogue: 0,0:14:46.16,0:14:48.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and to the community as a whole.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:48.65,0:14:52.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it's that that I think is the point\NI want to pick up on today,
Dialogue: 0,0:14:52.38,0:14:56.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and ask you\Nwhether you think it's worthwhile
Dialogue: 0,0:14:56.75,0:15:00.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,reinvigorating the debate in the arts
Dialogue: 0,0:15:00.03,0:15:06.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and asking is this particular art form,\Nis this particular example of an art form,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:06.66,0:15:10.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is it beneficial, is it going to increase\Nmy quality of life,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:10.09,0:15:13.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the quality of life of my community?
Dialogue: 0,0:15:13.39,0:15:15.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, you might feel\Nthat's an illegitimate question,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:15.39,0:15:17.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you might want to be\Nas I used to be
Dialogue: 0,0:15:17.94,0:15:20.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and think all artists\Nshould be like Baudelaire,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:20.34,0:15:23.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and not worry about such\Nsort of bourgeois,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:23.76,0:15:26.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,middle-aged kind of concerns.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:26.57,0:15:29.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But my challenge is, I think it is\Nan interesting question;
Dialogue: 0,0:15:29.83,0:15:34.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we're asking at the moment whether banking\Nought to be socially useful,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:34.05,0:15:37.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,why can't we ask that\Nof the arts as well?
Dialogue: 0,0:15:37.58,0:15:40.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I want to conclude with two points;
Dialogue: 0,0:15:40.16,0:15:45.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because I think that actually,\NPlato wants us to have this debate,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:46.01,0:15:49.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I think\NPlato might well eventually himself,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:49.49,0:15:53.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Plato not Socrates,\Ncome down on the side of the artist;
Dialogue: 0,0:15:53.87,0:15:57.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because I said at the beginning I wanted\Nto distinguish the character of Socrates
Dialogue: 0,0:15:57.79,0:15:59.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from Plato the artist.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:59.71,0:16:03.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Plato is a very great artist himself.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:03.36,0:16:06.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,His dramatic dialogues\Nare fabulous to read,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:06.16,0:16:09.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the characterization, the vivid imagery,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:09.30,0:16:11.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the scene setting,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:11.60,0:16:14.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the irony, the wit,\Nthe forward shadowing,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:14.75,0:16:19.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,ironically of future events.\NHe uses every artistic trick in the book.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:19.62,0:16:23.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They're wonderful to read\Nas a literature in their own right.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:23.97,0:16:28.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so I think Plato has set us\Na deliberate irony.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:29.49,0:16:33.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,His work called 'The Republic'\Nwould be banned
Dialogue: 0,0:16:33.81,0:16:39.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from the ideal state set out\Nby the character of Socrates in that work;
Dialogue: 0,0:16:39.71,0:16:43.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it does not meet the censorship rules\Nthat we've been looking at.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:43.94,0:16:48.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, Plato is intelligent enough\Nto be aware of that irony.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:50.69,0:16:57.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So what I want to suggest here is\Nthat Plato is deliberately giving us
Dialogue: 0,0:16:58.55,0:17:01.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,different ideas, provocative ideas,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:01.45,0:17:05.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on the usefulness or uselessness of art\Nto get a debate going.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:05.47,0:17:10.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,He's not necessarily going to agree with\Nwhat the character of Socrates says.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:10.63,0:17:15.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,He might be more sympathetic to a view\Nlater put forward by John Stuart Mill
Dialogue: 0,0:17:15.48,0:17:19.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the 19th century\Nin his famous work on liberty.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:19.08,0:17:22.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Mill there argues\Nthat truth is best served
Dialogue: 0,0:17:22.21,0:17:26.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,through the free and open exchange\Nof ideas and information,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:26.45,0:17:30.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and that this is a process\Nthat needs to be ongoing.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:30.39,0:17:32.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Mill argues that even a true belief
Dialogue: 0,0:17:32.57,0:17:36.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is liable to rigidify\Ninto dead dogma over time
Dialogue: 0,0:17:37.04,0:17:40.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if it's not challenged.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:40.46,0:17:44.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I think this is exactly\Nwhat Plato is trying to do.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:45.26,0:17:47.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We don't have to go down the route
Dialogue: 0,0:17:47.27,0:17:50.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of extreme censorship\Nor the banning of the arts
Dialogue: 0,0:17:50.36,0:17:55.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to invigorate the debate on whether\Na particular work of art is worthwhile.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:55.50,0:18:01.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I want to conclude with another verse\Nof the Wallace Stevens poem.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:05.20,0:18:09.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The attackers of art say:
Dialogue: 0,0:18:09.26,0:18:12.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Do not speak to us\Nof the greatness of poetry,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:12.04,0:18:14.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Of [the] torches wisping\Nin the underground,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:14.20,0:18:17.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Of the structure of vaults\Nupon a point of light.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:17.46,0:18:20.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There are no shadows in our sun,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:20.29,0:18:22.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Day is desire and night is sleep.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:22.32,0:18:24.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There are no shadows anywhere.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:24.61,0:18:27.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The earth, for us, is flat and bare.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:27.24,0:18:29.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There are no shadows.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:29.56,0:18:32.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, Socrates with his picture\Nof the Form of the Good,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:32.35,0:18:38.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which he likens to the sun, invites us\Nto consider a round without shadows in it.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:38.92,0:18:42.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Plato, the artist, however,\Npaints us a picture
Dialogue: 0,0:18:42.72,0:18:44.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,throughout 'The Republic'\Nand all his works
Dialogue: 0,0:18:44.75,0:18:47.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of a world full of light and shade,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:47.61,0:18:50.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is much more sympathetic to art
Dialogue: 0,0:18:50.31,0:18:56.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,providing it can be shown to be useful\Nand improve our quality of life.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:56.77,0:19:00.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So what I'd like to say to you\Nis that I hope
Dialogue: 0,0:19:00.82,0:19:03.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that you will all go away\Nand treat yourself to some Plato,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:03.84,0:19:06.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if you haven't already done that\Nin your lives.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:06.12,0:19:09.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But as you're doing this,\NI hope you'll also continue defiantly
Dialogue: 0,0:19:09.69,0:19:12.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to strum away on a blue guitar.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:12.05,0:19:13.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Thank you.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:13.60,0:19:15.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(Applause)