[REPORTERS TALKING ALL AT ONCE]
DARFUR...
GUATEMALA...
THE NAZI KILLERS...
Narrator: GENOCIDE.
I MEAN, WHY WERE THEY DOING THIS?
TERROR.
BEST-SELLING HISTORIAN DANIEL GOLDHAGEN
EXPLORES THE MOTIVE...
GENOCIDE NEVER HAPPENS AS A SURPRISE.
AND EXPLODES THE MYTH...
THESE PEOPLE HAD TO BE ELIMINATED.
BEHIND A CRIME...
IT WAS CRUELTY THAT OVERCAME US,
ME AND MY FELLOW CRIMINALS.
GENOCIDE IS ALWAYS POLITICS.
THAT'S WORSE THAN WAR.
CAPTIONING MADE POSSIBLE BY FRIENDS OF NCI
"WORSE THAN WAR" WAS MADE POSSIBLE BY...
THE PERSHING SQUARE FOUNDATION...
AND THE EINHORN FAMILY CHARITABLE TRUST.
ADDITIONAL FUNDING WAS PROVIDED BY...
[BIRD CHIRPING]
Man: SO ALL THE PEOPLE HERE MURDERED OTHER PEOPLE?
[TRANSLATOR SPEAKS NATIVE LANGUAGE]
YES. YOU CAN'T BE HERE IF YOU HAVEN'T KILLED.
[BIRD CHIRPING]
CAN YOU SHOW ME HOW YOU-- HOW THE PERSON WAS HACKED?
[TRANSLATOR SPEAKS NATIVE LANGUAGE]
I'VE BEEN THINKING AND WRITING ABOUT GENOCIDE FOR NEARLY 30 YEARS,
IT'S SOMETHING PEOPLE DON'T MUCH LIKE TO TALK ABOUT
AND ABOUT WHICH MOST OF US REMAIN DANGEROUSLY MISINFORMED.
Woman: GOOD EVENING. A NEW BOOK CALLED "HITLER'S WILLING EXECUTIONERS,"
A HIGHLY CONTROVERSIAL ACCOUNT OF THE HOLOCAUST...
Man: THE AMERICAN DANIEL GOLDHAGEN SAYS
THE EXCUSE OF ONLY OBEYING ORDERS WON'T WASH.
[MAN SPEAKS NATIVE LANGUAGE]
Jane Pauley: A CONTROVERSIAL BOOK ABOUT THE HOLOCAUST,
RAISING A TROUBLING NEW QUESTION:
WERE NAZI KILLERS HELPED
BY HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF ORDINARY GERMANS?
THEY SUBJECTED THE VICTIMS TO GRATUITOUS BRUTALITY,
INCESSANT CRUELTY,
SO THE PICTURE THAT EMERGES IS NOT OF RELUCTANT PEOPLE
WHO ARE COMPELLED TO DO WHAT THEY DID,
BUT PEOPLE WHO AGREED WITH THE PROGRAM, WHO BELIEVED
THAT THE DEATH OF THE JEWS WAS NECESSARY AND JUST.
Goldhagen: I'VE SPENT MY PROFESSIONAL LIFE TRYING TO DISPEL THE MANY MYTHS
THAT CLOUD PEOPLE'S JUDGMENT AND PREVENT US FROM DOING
SOMETHING EFFECTIVE TO STOP THE KILLING.
GENOCIDES HAPPEN IN EVERY CORNER OF THE WORLD,
THROUGH EVERY TYPE OF PEOPLE.
THE NUMBERS IN THE PAST 100 YEARS ARE STAGGERING.
THE TURKS SLAUGHTERED MORE THAN A MILLION ARMENIANS DURING WORLD WAR I.
IN THE 1930s AND 1940s,
THE JAPANESE KILLED MILLIONS ACROSS ASIA.
IN THE SOVIET UNION,
THE ESTIMATED NUMBER OF DEATHS IN THE GULAG CAMPS
AND BEYOND IS MORE THAN 8 MILLION.
THE GERMANS SLAUGHTERED 6 MILLION JEWS
AND MILLIONS MORE DURING WORLD WAR II.
IN THE 1950s AND 1960s,
THE COMMUNIST CHINESE KILLED AN ESTIMATED 30 MILLION,
AND DURING THE 1970s,
THE KHMER ROUGE KILLED 1.7 MILLION CAMBODIANS--
FULLY 20% OF THEIR COUNTRY'S POPULATION.
BOSNIA,
RWANDA,
CONGO,
DARFUR.
ALL TOLD, IN OUR TIME
THERE HAVE BEEN MORE THAN 100 MILLION INNOCENT VICTIMS OF GENOCIDE--
MORE THAN ALL THE COMBAT DEATHS IN ALL THE WARS FOUGHT
DURING THAT TIME EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD.
BASED ON THE HUMAN TOLL ALONE, GENOCIDE AND MASS SLAUGHTER
ARE WORSE PROBLEMS PLAGUING HUMANITY THAN WAR.
WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND WHY.
Man: IT IS A GREAT, DIFFICULT TASK YOU'RE FACING
TO CONVEY HUMAN BEINGS WHOSE BEHAVIOR SEEMS TO DEFY UNDERSTANDING,
AND THEY WERE BEYOND BELIEF.
Goldhagen, voice-over: IN MY WORK, I HAVE BENEFITED FROM THE WISDOM
OF A VALUED MENTOR,
A SCHOLAR OF GENOCIDE,
AND SURVIVOR OF THE HOLOCAUST.
BUT, YOU KNOW, AT THIS POINT, THOUGH--
BUT LET ME JUST REMIND YOU...
HE ALSO HAPPENS TO BE MY FATHER.
WHEN THE FIRST NEWS OF THE GAS CHAMBERS CAME,
THE JEWISH COMMUNITY WAS VERY SKEPTICAL OF IT.
RIGHT, BUT WE'RE IN A DIFFERENT TIME NOW.
NOBODY DISBELIEVES THAT THESE THINGS HAPPENED.
THAT'S QUITE TRUE.
WHAT THEY HAVE DIFFICULTY UNDERSTANDING--
IS WHY IT HAPPENED, YES.
AND ACCEPTING NOTIONS THAT VIOLATE THEIR OWN
COMMON-SENSE UNDERSTANDINGS OF THE WORLD.
THERE'S A CERTAIN PARADOX HERE
BECAUSE SOMETIMES ONE ACCEPTS VERY HIGHLY,
SEEMINGLY ORIGINAL, PROFOUND THEORIES,
AND SOMETIMES THE EXPLANATION IS RELATIVELY SIMPLE.
I THINK THE ACTUAL EXPLANATIONS ARE--
ARE THREATENING AND UNSETTLING TO PEOPLE.
THE NOTION THAT ORDINARY PEOPLE WOULD WILLFULLY BUTCHER OTHER PEOPLE,
TORTURE THEM, INCLUDING CHILDREN, SLAUGHTER THEM,
IS A VERY DISTURBING NOTION TO PEOPLE,
PARTICULARLY IF THEY'RE LOOKING UPON PEOPLE WITH WHOM THEY IDENTIFY.
SO THEY SEEK EXPLANATIONS WHICH ARE MORE--
I WOULDN'T SAY MORE COMFORTING, BUT LESS THREATENING TO THEM...
Goldhagen, voice-over: AS EARLY AS I CAN REMEMBER THINKING SERIOUS THOUGHTS,
MY FATHER AND I HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THESE THINGS.
AS A SCHOLAR, HE JOURNEYED INTO THE DARKEST CHAPTERS OF THE HUMAN EXPERIENCE,
SEEKING TO UNDERSTAND NOT ONLY WHAT HAPPENED, BUT WHY.
NOW I AM CONTINUING THE JOURNEY HE BEGAN,
A JOURNEY THAT IN A SENSE, I HAVE BEEN ON MY ENTIRE LIFE.
PEOPLE NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT NOTHING IS INEVITABLE ABOUT GENOCIDE.
IT BOILS DOWN TO A SERIES OF CHOICES.
LEADERS CHOOSE TO INITIATE THE KILLING,
ORDINARY PEOPLE MAKE A CONSCIOUS CHOICE TO PARTICIPATE...
AND THOSE WITH THE POWER TO PREVENT OR STOP IT
CHOOSE TO DO NOTHING.
I STUDY GENOCIDES BECAUSE I BELIEVE
THE MORE WE KNOW ABOUT HOW AND WHY GENOCIDES HAPPEN,
THE MORE WE CAN GET POLITICAL LEADERS
AND ORDINARY PEOPLE TO MAKE DIFFERENT CHOICES.
IMAGINE IF ONE DAY, PEOPLE IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD
WERE DRAGGED OUT OF THEIR HOMES AND KILLED IN THE STREET.
YOU WOULD WANT THE KILLERS STOPPED AND PUNISHED,
AND YOU WOULD WANT TO KNOW THAT IT WOULD NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN.
WHY SHOULD IT BE ANY DIFFERENT
WHEN THE VICTIMS ARE SOMEWHERE ELSE?
LIKE THE PEOPLE IN YOUR COMMUNITY,
EACH GENOCIDE VICTIM IS AN INDIVIDUAL.
A FATHER, A MOTHER, A DAUGHTER, A SON.
AS A SCHOLAR, I SPEND MOST OF MY TIME IN ARCHIVES AND LIBRARIES.
BUT OVER THE PAST YEAR, I TRAVELED TO THESE "SOMEWHERE ELSES,"
THE SITES OF SOME OF THE WORST MASS MURDERS OF OUR TIME.
[BIRDS CHIRPING]
[DOOR CLANGS]
IT'S BEEN DECADES STUDYING NAZIS AND THE HOLOCAUST, GENOCIDE,
BUT I'VE NEVER BEEN IN A GAS CHAMBER BEFORE.
I STARTED MY JOURNEY MINDFUL
THAT THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A TIME DURING THE PAST CENTURY
WHEN OUR PLANET WAS FREE OF MASS MURDER,
INCLUDING NOW.
Woman: FOR 5 LONG YEARS,
DARFUR HAS BEEN A SCENE OF DEVASTATION AND DESTRUCTION.
300,000 PEOPLE HAVE DIED
AND 2.5 MILLION HAVE FLED THEIR HOMES
AS THE SUDANESE GOVERNMENT HAS TRIED TO CRUSH A REBELLION
AGAINST ITS RULE.
Goldhagen: THE PLIGHT OF DARFUR HAS MOVED PEOPLE OF CONSCIENCE AROUND THE WORLD
AND HAS ONLY INTENSIFIED MY DESIRE TO KNOW MORE...
TO SEE THE PLACES WHERE THE HORRORS HAVE HAPPENED,
MEET THE PEOPLE WHO WERE THERE,
AND ASK THE KINDS OF QUESTIONS YOU HAVE TO ASK,
EVEN THOUGH SOMETIMES YOU MAY DREAD HEARING THE ANSWER.
Goldhagen: WHEN THE GENOCIDE BEGAN, WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU?
[TRANSLATOR SPEAKING NATIVE LANGUAGE]
AND HER FAMILY.
SHE SAID HER DAD WAS KILLED LIKE--
HE WAS, YOU KNOW, CHOPPED. HE WAS CUT WITH A MACHETE.
AND THE MOM WAS CHOPPED. THAT WHAT SHE'S SAYING
IS SHE WAS CHOPPED WITH A MACHETE.
AND THE BROTHER WAS, ALSO.
WHO KILLED HER FAMILY?
WERE THESE JUST LOCAL PEOPLE WHO LIVE THROUGH HERE?
[TRANSLATOR SPEAKS NATIVE LANGUAGE]
SHE SAYS THEY WERE NEIGHBORS.
MOST OF THAT, THEY WERE EVEN FRIENDS TO THE FAMILY.
[COW BELLOWS]
Goldhagen: IN GENOCIDE AFTER GENOCIDE,
THESE ARE THE QUESTIONS THAT CONTINUE TO BE ASKED:
HOW DO NEIGHBORS END UP TURNING AGAINST NEIGHBORS?
WHY DO THE KILLERS KILL?
HERE IN RWANDA,
MORE THAN 800,000 MEN, WOMEN, AND CHILDREN
WERE KILLED OVER THE COURSE OF 3 MONTHS.
MOST WERE ETHNIC TUTSI,
MURDERED BY MEMBERS OF THE HUTU MAJORITY,
FACE TO FACE WITH MACHETES,
CLUBS, AND GUNS.
HITLER'S GAS CHAMBERS DID NOT KILL WITH SUCH DEADLY EFFICIENCY.
Goldhagen: WHEN PEOPLE KILLED THE VICTIMS,
DID THEY TRY TO KILL THEM AS PAINLESSLY AS POSSIBLE
OR DID THEY TRY TO MAKE THEM SUFFER?
[TRANSLATOR SPEAKING NATIVE LANGUAGE]
Goldhagen: I FIND IT HARD TO UNDERSTAND, AND I WANT TO UNDERSTAND,
HOW PEOPLE COULD APPROACH OTHER PEOPLE,
WHO ARE BEGGING FOR THEIR LIVES AND SCREAMING IN PAIN,
AND CHOP THEM.
IT'S A VERY TOUGH QUESTION TO ANSWER
BECAUSE THEY HAVE THE SAME FLESH, LIKE YOURS.
ELIE'S WORD--CRUELTY-- COULD NOT BE MORE ACCURATE.
CRUELTY IS AT THE HEART OF GENOCIDE.
THE KILLERS DON'T JUST ERADICATE THE TARGETED PEOPLE,
BUT BRUTALIZE THEM IN WAYS THAT FAR EXCEED
WHAT IS NEEDED TO KILL THEM.
I SEE THE EVIDENCE OF SUCH CRUELTY EVERYWHERE I GO.
I CAME TO GUATEMALA, WHERE A MASSIVE EFFORT HAS BEEN UNDERWAY
TO LITERALLY UNCOVER THE TRUTH ABOUT THE GOVERNMENT'S MASS SLAUGHTER
OF 200,000 INDIGENOUS MAYA DURING THE 1980s.
OUTSIDE GUATEMALA, FEW PEOPLE EVEN KNOW ABOUT THE GENOCIDE.
Suasnavar: BUENOS DIAS.
Goldhagen: DO WE KNOW--IS THIS A FAMILY OR TWO FAMILIES? ARE THERE ADULTS?
Goldhagen: IN THESE HILLS,
THE GUATEMALAN MILITARY CONDUCTED A SCORCHED-EARTH CAMPAIGN
AGAINST MAYA AND LEFTIST INSURGENTS.
THE MAYAN PEOPLE, THEY SAID, WERE INHERENTLY SUBVERSIVE
AND AN IMPEDIMENT TO PROGRESS.
THE GOVERNMENT STRATEGY WAS SUMMED UP
IN A GRIM APHORISM OF THE TIME--
"TO KILL THE FISH, YOU HAVE TO DRAIN THE POND."
HERE, IN THE MOUNTAIN HAMLET OF PLAN DE SANCHEZ,
THEY DRAINED THE POND ON JULY 18, 1982.
Woman: THE MILITARY WOULD SEPARATE THE WOMEN AND THE MEN.
SOMETIMES THEY WOULD TAKE THE INFANTS OUT OF THE WOMEN'S ARMS
AND SIMPLY SMASH THEM ON THE GROUND,
KILL THEM RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF EVERYBODY.
THEY CUT TONGUES OUT.
THEY OPENED PREGNANT WOMEN'S BELLIES
AND DASHED FETUSES AGAINST TREES.
THEY BURNED PEOPLE ALIVE.
WE KNOW THIS BECAUSE THERE WERE PEOPLE
WHO, EVEN IN THE MIDST OF THIS MAYHEM AND MASS KILLING,
SOMEHOW MANAGED TO HIDE-- BEHIND A DOOR,
UNDERNEATH A PILE OF CORN HUSKS--
AND WATCH.
Goldhagen: ONLY ONCE I GOT TO GUATEMALA DID I REALIZE
HOW REMOTE THESE MOUNTAIN VILLAGES REALLY ARE.
GOVERNMENT LEADERS CALL THESE SUBSISTENCE FARMERS
A THREAT TO THE WELL-BEING OF THE COUNTRY,
BUT THEY DID NOT POSE A THREAT TO ANYONE.
THE GUATEMALAN PERPETRATORS OBLITERATED ONE SUCH COMMUNITY AFTER ANOTHER.
Goldhagen: EVERYWHERE I GO, THE FACES OF CHILDREN HAUNT ME THE MOST.
I HAVE CHILDREN, TOO,
AND IT'S HARD NOT TO THINK ABOUT THEM AS I HEAR STORIES
OVER AND OVER ABOUT THE CRUELTY CHILDREN SUFFERED.
...WHEN THEY KILLED ABOUT 177 PEOPLE,
MOST OF THEM CHILDREN AND THE OTHERS WOMEN.
SO THERE WASN'T A SINGLE ADULT MALE, SO WHICH CAN--
YOU KNOW, YOU CAN SAY LETS YOU UNDERSTAND
THAT THESE ARE NOT COMBAT DEATHS.
OH, NO. YEAH, YOU KNOW, IT'S VERY COMMON IN MASS MURDERS
FOR THE PERPETRATORS TO DO THIS TO CHILDREN...
YEAH.
AFTER RWANDA AND THE HOLOCAUST.
Goldhagen, voice-over: FREDY PECCERELLI, A GUATEMALAN NATIVE RAISED IN AMERICA,
IS IN CHARGE OF COLLECTING AND CATALOGUING THE BONES.
THEY PORTRAY A MESSAGE. WHEN THEY DO THIS,
THEY ARE ALSO KILLING THE SEED OF EVIL, ACCORDING TO THEM,
WHETHER IT BE IN NAZI GERMANY
OR WHETHER IT BE IN GUATEMALA IN THE 1980s.
BUT THIS IS THE BONE LAB OF THE FORENSIC ANTHROPOLOGY LABORATORY.
FREDY IS AMASSING A RECORD OF THE ATROCITIES
COMMITTED BY THE GUATEMALAN PERPETRATORS...
BUT THE FIRST STAGE AFTER THE...
AND PROVIDING THE VICTIMS' FAMILIES WITH THE REMAINS TO BURY PROPERLY.
Peccerelli: THE BONES HOLD THE STORY
OF WHAT HAPPENED TO A PERSON DURING THEIR LIFE
AND MIGHT EVEN TELL US WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM
DURING THE EVENT OF THEIR DEATH
AND EVEN WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM AFTER DEATH.
SO HERE, FOR EXAMPLE, WE CAN SEE...HOW...
AND IF YOU WANT, I'LL ALLOW YOU TO FEEL THE DIFFERENCE SO YOU CAN SEE.
THIS IS A VERY SHARP CUT, AND IF YOU RUN YOUR HAND THROUGH IT,
IT'S VERY, VERY SMOOTH.
MM-HMM.
YOU SEE, THAT WAS CAUSED BY A MACHETE STRIKING
THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE HEAD AND ALSO CUTTING THE ATLAS.
AND, YOU SEE, WHEN YOU MATCH IT UP ANATOMICALLY,
YOU CAN SEE THAT THIS TRAUMA HERE...
RIGHT.
IS RELATED TO THIS STRIKE HERE,
AND BASICALLY WHAT THEY TRIED TO DO HERE IS DECAPITATE THE PERSON.
NOW, WHAT WE'VE SEEN USUALLY IS THAT
THESE PEOPLE WERE NOT VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE OF ANATOMY,
SO THE DECAPITATIONS, AS YOU'D EXPECT,
WERE NOT ALWAYS SUCCESSFUL, SO YOU HAVE REPEATED BLOWS TO THE HEAD.
SOMEBODY'S TRYING TO SEPARATE THE HEAD FROM THE BODY.
THEY'RE VERY TYPICAL OF OVERKILL AND SOMETIMES OF EVEN CRIMES OF PASSION.
Goldhagen: "OVERKILL"-- THERE'S A WORD
I DON'T THINK I'LL EVER HEAR THE SAME WAY AGAIN.
IF THE KILLERS WERE SIMPLY DOING THEIR DUTY
TO WIPE OUT AN INSURGENCY, AS THEY CLAIM,
THEY WOULD EXECUTE THEIR VICTIMS QUICKLY AND BE DONE WITH IT.
YOU HAVE TO WONDER WHY WE SEE SO MUCH EVIDENCE OF SUCH MURDEROUS PASSION,
ESPECIALLY AGAINST WOMEN AND CHILDREN.
THIS IS A CHILD HERE, A VERY YOUNG CHILD.
I WOULDN'T EVEN DARE TO TELL YOU THE AGE
UNLESS WITH THE ANTHROPOLOGIST WORKING ON THE CASE,
AND YOU CAN COMPARE-- THIS IS THE FIRST RIB.
WOW.
SO...AND IF YOU COMPARE THIS
TO THAT ONE, YOU CAN SEE THE DIFFERENCE.
I MEAN, THE FIRST RIB IS ABOUT THAT BIG, SO THIS IS A VERY, VERY SMALL--
MAY I SEE THIS?
JUST HOLDING THE TINY LITTLE BONE.
YOU KNOW...
YEAH. SEE, I DON'T KNOW.
I DON'T THINK THERE'S A--A WAY OF...
HUMANLY UNDERSTANDING THIS
BECAUSE IT GOES BEYOND WHAT I BELIEVE HUMANS CAN DO,
BUT OBVIOUSLY--I MEAN, THE MORE I SAY THAT, THE MORE I TEND TO--
IT'S HARD FOR ME TO BELIEVE
THAT YOU'RE SAYING THIS, GIVEN WHAT YOU--
BECAUSE I WANT TO BELIEVE THAT WE'RE NOT CAPABLE OF THESE THINGS,
EVEN THOUGH-- I WANT TO BELIEVE THAT THIS IS WRONG.
SO DOING THIS HAS TO BE WRONG.
IF I ACCEPTED THIS AS RIGHT AND IF I EXCUSE IT,
THEN I CAN'T DO THIS ANYMORE.
FREDY IS NOT ALONE.
MOST OF US FIND IT HARD TO COME TO TERMS
WITH THE CAPACITY OF HUMAN BEINGS TO DO SUCH HORRIBLE THINGS TO OTHERS.
BUT WE HAVE TO MAKE SENSE OF IT.
AS IRRATIONAL AS THEY SEEM, THESE ARE NOT THE ACTS OF CRAZED INDIVIDUALS.
THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING,
BELIEVE IT'S RIGHT, AND MAKE A CONSCIOUS CHOICE TO ACT.
UH, HELLO.
JA.
ICH BIN DANIEL GOLDHAGEN.
[SPEAKING GERMAN]
Goldhagen: LIKE MOST GERMANS, OTTO-ERNST DUSCHELEIT GREW UP WITH THE WORLD VIEW
IN WHICH HE SAW HIMSELF AS A MEMBER OF THE MASTER RACE,
WHILE MANY OTHERS FELL INTO THE CATEGORY OF SUB-HUMANS OR UNTERMENSCHEN.
[MEN SINGING IN GERMAN]
Goldhagen: WHEN YOU WERE IN SCHOOL...
YES?
WHEN YOU WERE IN THE HITLER YOUTH,
WHAT DID YOU LEARN, FOR EXAMPLE, ABOUT UNTERMENSCHEN?
WHAT DID THAT WORD MEAN TO YOU?
JA, UNTERMENSCHEN.
Goldhagen: IT'S STRIKING THAT IT IS A FORMER SS MAN,
INVOKING ANNE FRANK, WHO MAKES THIS POINT.
IT IS AN IMPORTANT ONE.
IT IS THAT FAILURE TO SEE THE HUMANITY IN OTHERS
WHICH MAKES IT POSSIBLE FOR THE KILLERS TO COMMIT THEIR CRIMES.
I WOULD ADD THAT IT'S THE BELIEF
THAT THOSE OTHERS ARE DANGEROUS ENEMIES
WHICH INSPIRES THE PERPETRATORS TO KILL WITH SUCH ZEAL.
YEARS AGO, I ENCOUNTERED AN EPISODE OF THE HOLOCAUST
WHICH SPOKE VOLUMES ABOUT THE WILLFULNESS AND DEDICATION OF THE KILLERS,
AND I GOT TO KNOW ONE OF THE SURVIVORS, LILLI SILBIGER.
I HAVE A MAP HERE WITH ME WHICH ACTUALLY OUTLINES THE ROUTE
FROM HELMBRECHT TO VOLARY...
Goldhagen, voice-over: IN THE LAST MONTHS OF WORLD WAR II,
AS THE ALLIED FORCES NEARED THE CONCENTRATION CAMPS HOUSING JEWS AND OTHERS,
GERMANS EMPTIED THEIR CAMPS AND DROVE THEIR PRISONERS
ON FORCED MARCHES THROUGH THE NEARBY TOWNS AND COUNTRYSIDE.
[SILBIGER SPEAKING GERMAN]
Goldhagen: THE DEATH MARCHES LEFT A TRAIL OF CORPSES IN THEIR WAKE,
AND THE MARCHING PRISONERS WERE DESCRIBED BY MORE THAN ONE WITNESS
AS "THE WALKING DEAD."
THESE ARE ACTUAL PHOTOS OF THE YOUNG WOMEN
WHO WERE WITH LILLI ON THE MARCH.
ON THE SUMMER DAY LILY REVISITED THE ROUTE OF A DEATH MARCH WITH ME,
THE COUNTRYSIDE WAS BEAUTIFUL.
BUT IN THE SPRING OF 1945, IT WAS COLD AND BLEAK.
LILY'S GUARDS ACTUALLY HAD RECEIVED EXPLICIT ORDERS NOT TO KILL ANY MORE JEWS,
BUT THEY WILLFULLY DEFIED THEIR SUPERIORS.
THEY DROVE HER AND THE OTHERS, STARVING, WEARING NOTHING MORE THAN RAGS,
DAY AFTER DAY THROUGH THE FRIGID COUNTRYSIDE.
SOMETIMES WE WOULDN'T EVEN GET FOOD FOR 24 HOURS, FOR 48 HOURS.
PEOPLE RESORTED TO ANYTHING THAT WAS FOUND
OR ANYTHING ROTTEN THAT WAS--YOU KNOW, YOU JUST GRABBED AT ANYTHING.
AND YOU WERE 16 AT THE TIME?
YEAH.
AND IN ONE PLACE, SOMEONE BROKE INTO A PANTRY
OR SOMEPLACE WHERE WE ARRIVED AND STOLE SOME LOAFS OF BREAD.
AND FOR THAT, THEY SELECTED 50 GIRLS AND KILLED THEM
OVER THE MASS GRAVE THERE.
WE HAD TO COME BACK AND COVER THEM,
AND THERE WERE MANY OF THEM STILL ALIVE WHEN WE HAD TO DO THAT.
SO THEY--YOU HAD TO HELP BURY THEM ALIVE?
WE HAD TO DO-- WE HAD TO PUT--
YES, THE EARTH, COVER THEM WITH EARTH.
SO THIS WAS THE BIGGEST HORRIBLE...
[VOICE CRACKS] YEAH....
PERIOD.
[DISTANT ROLLING THUNDER]
ONE OF THE ASTONISHING THINGS IS THAT THEY WERE MARCHING THE JEWISH PRISONERS
LITERALLY THE LAST DAY OF THE WAR.
INSTEAD OF RUNNING AWAY TO AVOID CAPTURE, THEY STAYED WITH THE PRISONERS,
THEY CONTINUED TO DENY THEM FOOD...
ABSOLUTELY.
THEY CONTINUED TO BEAT THEM, THEY CONTINUED TO KILL THEM,
THEY CONTINUED TO DO IT TO THE VERY END.
WE KNEW THE RUSSIANS WERE CLOSING IN THERE,
AND THEN WE HEARD ARTILLERY,
SOME PLANES FLYING OVERHEAD,
HEARD SOME BOMBINGS IN THE DISTANCE,
SO WE KNEW THEY WERE VERY CLOSE.
[EXPLOSIONS, GUNFIRE]
THEY MANAGED FOR SUCH A LONG TIME TO KEEP AHEAD OF THE ALLIES,
GOING NOWHERE, YOU KNOW, TO--A PLACE--TO NOWHERE.
JUST TO DRAG US, JUST TO...
JUST GO IN CIRCLES, ACTUALLY. THAT'S WHAT WAS HAPPENING.
THEY DIDN'T KNOW THEMSELVES WHAT THEY WERE DOING.
THEY COULD HAVE EASILY LEFT US WHEREVER WE WERE
AND JUST DISAPPEAR, AND THEY DIDN'T.
THEY BELIEVED THE JEWS WERE EVIL INCARNATE, AN ENEMY OF HUMANKIND,
A THREAT TO THE WELL-BEING AND FUTURE EXISTENCE OF GERMANY.
AND IF YOU BELIEVE THAT,
JUST AS IF YOU BELIEVE SOMEONE'S ABOUT TO ATTACK YOUR CHILD,
YOU WILL DO ANYTHING YOU CAN.
YEAH.
[CAR HORN HONKS]
EACH OF US TRIES TO MAKE SENSE OF THE HORRORS IN HIS OR HER OWN WAY.
OVER THE YEARS, I HAVE TALKED WITH MANY WHO GRAPPLE OVER THESE ISSUES,
BUT NEVER ONE MORE THOUGHTFUL THAN A MAN I MET IN RWANDA--
THARCISSE KARUGARAMA, THE COUNTRY'S MINISTER OF JUSTICE.
Goldhagen: HERE WE'RE SPEAKING NOW AS TWO PEOPLE TRYING
TO UNDERSTAND A VERY DIFFICULT SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES:
THE WAYS IN WHICH VICTIMS WERE NOT JUST KILLED
IN, IF WE CAN CALL IT, THE LEAST PAINFUL WAY,
BUT WERE HACKED TO DEATH, WERE TORTURED;
THE ZEAL AND PASSION WITH WHICH THE PERPETRATORS SOUGHT OUT THE VICTIMS.
IT'S NOT EASY TO FIND PEOPLE HIDING IN THE COUNTRYSIDE.
MASS HYSTERIA...
IS VERY DIFFICULT TO EXPLAIN.
PEOPLE HIT A PERIOD WHEN THEY'RE INVOLVED IN MASS HYSTERIA,
WHEN THEY CAN NO LONGER BE ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS.
BUT YOU CERTAINLY DON'T WANT TO TAKE THAT AS A LEGAL POSITION, DO YOU?
NO, DEFINITELY NOT. DEFINITELY NOT.
I'M JUST TRYING TO EXPLAIN BECAUSE I'VE BEEN AROUND
IN THIS JUDICIAL FOR SOME TIME NOW,
AND I'VE MADE ALL SORTS OF CONTRADICTIONS.
SO THE ONE YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT IS A MAJOR CONTRADICTION.
THE BRUTALITY WITH WHICH THEY DID THE KILLING IS SHOCKING.
WHAT...ONCE PEOPLE HAD STEPPED BEYOND
THE FIRST STEP OF ACTUALLY KILLING--
THROWING A CHILD DOWN AND HACKING THEM TO DEATH,
OPENING THE WOMB OF PREGNANT--
THERE'S NOTHING THAT WAS IF--THAT HE COULDN'T DO
BECAUSE THEY WERE BEING TOLD BY THE PETITIONS
WHO WERE GIVING THEM THE ALCOHOL
THAT "IF YOU DON'T DESTROY THESE PEOPLE, THESE ANIMALS, THESE--
THEY'RE COMING TO FINISH YOU. NONE OF YOU WILL SURVIVE."
AND THEY HAD BEEN MADE TO BELIEVE IT.
I DON'T WANT TO BE A--TO GIVE AN EXCUSE FOR THEM.
THEY ARE WILLING KILLERS. THERE'S NO DOUBT IN MY MIND.
BUT, SEE, AT THE BACK OF THEIR MIND, THE RADIO IS TELLING THEM,
"THEY'RE COMING TO FINISH YOU.
"IF YOU DON'T KILL THEM YOURSELVES, THEIR PLAN...
IS TO FINISH YOU."
Goldhagen: IN MASSACHUSETTS, I LIVE JUST A FEW MILES
FROM A LARGE COMMUNITY OF CAMBODIAN AMERICANS.
MANY OF THEM ARE SURVIVORS OF THE GENOCIDE THAT TOOK THE LIVES
OF 20% OF CAMBODIA'S POPULATION DURING THE 1970s--
ONE IN 5 CAMBODIANS.
[MEN SINGING IN NATIVE LANGUAGE]
Goldhagen: IT IS A CHILLING STATISTIC.
IN THE SPRING OF 1975,
A COMMUNIST REBEL GROUP, THE KHMER ROUGE, CONQUERED THE COUNTRY.
THEY WANTED TO TURN CAMBODIA INTO A MARXIST AGRARIAN UTOPIA,
WHICH, TO THEM, MEANT DESTROYING VIRTUALLY ALL VESTIGES OF MODERN CIVILIZATION.
Man: FIRST DAY WHEN THEY MARCH INTO THE CITY,
AND WE'RE SO HAPPY THAT THE WAR IS ENDED.
WE WERE JOYFUL AND WE SAW THE SOLDIER CAME, THE PEACE COME,
AND NO MORE FIGHTING, NO MORE WAR,
AND THEN SUDDENLY EVERYTHING JUST DISAPPEARED.
I SAW A LOT OF SOLDIERS IN BLACK UNIFORMS CLOSE TO MY HOME.
[WHISTLE BLOWS]
THESE SOLDIERS SPRAYED EVERYWHERE, SHOOTING GUNS IN THE AIR
AND ASK, "LET'S GO, LET'S GO."
[DISTANT MACHINE GUNFIRE]
Goldhagen: WITHIN 3 DAYS, KHMER ROUGE CADRES EMPTIED CAMBODIA'S CITIES,
FORCING MILLIONS INTO THE RURAL CAMPS THEY CALLED COOPERATIVES,
BUT WHICH CAME TO BE KNOWN TO THE OUTSIDE WORLD AS THE KILLING FIELDS.
Uong: THINK OVER TWO MILE PER DAY, 3 MILE PER DAY
THAT WE COULDN'T MOVE BECAUSE OF SO MANY PEOPLE.
AND ALONG THE ROAD ARE BODIES ALONG THE ROAD EVERYWHERE.
THEY JUST-- THE SCENE IS JUST AWFUL.
Goldhagen: THE EXTENT OF THEIR VIOLENT TRANSFORMATION OF CAMBODIAN SOCIETY
STILL BOGGLES THE MIND.
AND IT WAS ALL BEGUN BY ONE MAN, KNOWN AS POL POT,
SUPPORTED BY A SMALL INNER CIRCLE.
GENOCIDE IS ALWAYS THE DECISION OF ONE LEADER
OR A SMALL GROUP OF LEADERS.
THESE INDIVIDUALS MAKE A CHOICE TO INITIATE THE KILLING,
WHICH, IN EVERY CASE, MEANS THEY COULD HAVE ALSO CHOSEN NOT TO.
THE LEADERS' GOALS VARY, DEPENDING ON THE TIME, PLACE, AND CIRCUMSTANCES:
POL POT WANTED TO RADICALLY TRANSFORM CAMBODIAN SOCIETY;
THE TURKISH LEADER MEHMED TALAAT WANTED TO SECURE TURKEY'S DECAYING EMPIRE;
ADOLF HITLER WANTED TO CREATE A VAST POLITICAL EMPIRE
RULED BY THE GERMAN MASTER RACE;
COLONEL THEONISTE BAGOSORA AND HIS FELLOW HUTU LEADERS
WANTED TO SECURE POLITICAL POWER IN RWANDA FOR THE HUTU;
AND IN THE BALKANS,
SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC WANTED TO PERMANENTLY REDRAW THE POLITICAL MAP OF THE REGION.
GENOCIDE IS ALWAYS POLITICS.
OF COURSE, THERE ARE POLITICAL GOALS.
THOSE POLITICAL GOALS CAN BE REACHED IN DIFFERENT WAYS.
SOME PEOPLE THINK THAT EXTERMINATING A GROUP WILL HELP THEIR GOALS,
SO THAT'S WHY THEY DO IT.
SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC THOUGHT AT THAT TIME,
THAT HE COULD, BECAUSE OF THE OVERWHELMING MILITARY POWER,
MAKE SOME TERRITORIAL GAINS IN CROATIA AND BOSNIA, SO HE ATTACKED.
[MEN SPEAKING INDISTINCTLY]
Silajdzic: THE FULFILLING OF THEIR MISSION...
[EXPLOSION]
WAS...TO MAKE A GREATER SERBIA.
IN ORDER TO MAKE GREATER SERBIA,
YOU HAD TO EXTERMINATE PEOPLE IN YOUR WAY.
Man: SERBIA'S RIGHT THERE ACROSS THE DRINA RIVER,
AND LOTS OF SERB-CONTROLLED TERRITORY IN THE CENTRAL PART OF THE COUNTRY,
THEY WANTED TO LINK THOSE TWO ZONES, RIGHT?
BUT IF YOU HAD LARGE-- A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF MUSLIMS
ALONG THE WESTERN BANKS OF THAT RIVER,
YOU HAD A KIND OF BARRIER BETWEEN THOSE TWO SERBIAN AREAS,
SO THESE PEOPLE HAD TO BE ELIMINATED.
Silajdzic: THESE THINGS ARE DONE IN COLD BLOOD.
THIS IS A DESIGN. THIS IS A PLAN.
THIS IS A CALCULATION, OF COURSE.
THIS IS NOT A REACTION TO SOMETHING.
THIS IS--THIS, UNFORTUNATELY, HERE IS A PLANNED GENOCIDE,
AS IS ANY OTHER GENOCIDE
BECAUSE IT'S NOT POSSIBLE TO KILL A BIG NUMBER OF PEOPLE
WITHOUT PRIOR PREPARATION:
MENTAL PREPARATION,
INTELLECTUAL PREPARATION,
MILITARY PREPARATION.
Goldhagen: PRESIDENT SILAJDZIC IS RIGHT.
THERE'S A MISCONCEPTION THAT GENOCIDES ERUPT SPONTANEOUSLY
OUT OF DEEP-SEATED PASSIONS OR ETHNIC CONFLICTS.
BUT THERE IS NOTHING SPONTANEOUS ABOUT GENOCIDE.
IN THIS VILLA IN THE SUBURBS OF BERLIN,
THE NAZI LEADERSHIP DISCUSSED THEIR DETAILED PLANS
TO EXTERMINATE THE JEWS OF EUROPE.
THESE TYPEWRITTEN MINUTES DOCUMENT THE MEETING
AND LIST COUNTRY BY COUNTRY THE 11 MILLION JEWS THEY PLAN TO KILL.
ONE OF THOSE WAS ERICH GOLDHAGEN,
THE 10-YEAR-OLD BOY IN WHAT WAS THEN ROMANIA, NOW UKRAINE,
WHO WOULD GROW UP TO BECOME MY FATHER.
THE NAZI VICTORY WOULD HAVE BEEN TANTAMOUNT, EVEN WORSE,
THAN--IT WOULD BE LIKE A NUCLEAR WAR, ALMOST.
THE DESTRUCTION WOULD BE...
MM-HMM.
IT IS PERHAPS EASIER TO RECOVER FROM A NUCLEAR ASSAULT
THAN IT WOULD BE FROM A NAZI VICTORY.
Goldhagen: I'VE ASKED HIM TO JOIN ME ON PART OF MY JOURNEY
TO RETURN TO WHERE HE LIVED DURING THE HOLOCAUST.
SO HAVE YOU TALKED TO MOM ABOUT OUR TRIP TO CZERNOWITZ?
YES.
SHE IS VERY ENTHUSIASTIC ABOUT IT. SHE ENCOURAGES ME TO GO.
YOU KNOW, MOM IS ALWAYS SOMEONE IN BELIEVING--
SHE BELIEVES THAT THE PAST HAS TO BE PRESERVED AND REMEMBERED,
AND SHE HAS HELPED ME OVERCOME MY NATURAL RELUCTANCE TO GO.
YOU KNOW, WHEN I TOLD HER THAT SHE HAD TO WORK ON YOU,
SHE SAID SHE NEVER WORKS ON YOU. HA HA!
BUT I KNEW I HAD AN ALLY.
IN A VERY SUBTLE WAY, YOU KNOW, SHE WORKS ON ME.
ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS TO ENVISION
WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF HITLER HAD WON THE WAR.
THERE WOULD BE MASS GRAVES EVERYWHERE, VAST CONCENTRATION CAMPS,
AND WHAT I CALL IN GREEK A NECROPOLIS, A CITY OF DEATH.
AND EVEN GERMANY ITSELF WOULD HAVE BEEN TRANSFORMED,
BUT MOST GERMANS UNDERSTAND THIS,
THAT HITLER WOULD HAVE DONE TO GERMANY THINGS
WHICH EVEN THE WORST ENEMY OF GERMANY WOULDN'T HAVE DONE.
HE WOULD HAVE DESTROYED THE CHRISTIAN CHURCHES, DESTROYED THE CHURCHES,
KILLED THE INSANE, AND ABOVE ALL, AND THIS IS THE IMPORTANT POINT,
HE WOULD HAVE CONVERTED THE YOUNGER GENERATION INTO A RACE OF BARBARIANS.
Goldhagen: THERE IS A WIDELY HELD MISCONCEPTION
THAT THE GERMANS' EFFICIENCY AND TECHNOLOGY--
THE TRAINS AND THE GAS CHAMBERS--
MADE IT POSSIBLE FOR THEM TO KILL SO MANY SO QUICKLY.
AS WE'VE SEEN IN RWANDA AND ELSEWHERE,
LEADERS DO NOT NEED SOPHISTICATED TECHNOLOGY TO KILL ON A VAST SCALE.
[MEN SHOUTING IN NATIVE LANGUAGE]
IT IS THE WILL, AND NOT THE WAY,
THAT IS CRITICAL.
[MEN SINGING]
IN RWANDA, THE HUTU LEADERS DID WHAT ALL GENOCIDAL LEADERS DO.
THEY TAPPED INTO THE PREJUDICES AND BELIEFS THAT PEOPLE ALREADY HELD.
GENERATIONS OF HUTU HAD GROWN UP BEING TAUGHT
THAT THE TUTSI ARE DANGEROUS AND INHUMAN.
[RADIO STATIC]
[MAN SPEAKING NATIVE LANGUAGE]
[MEN SINGING IN NATIVE LANGUAGE]
Goldhagen: IT WAS EASY TO MOBILIZE HUTU FOR THE KILLING.
[MAN SHOUTS IN BOSNIAN]
Silajdzic: IN BOSNIA, THERE WAS DELIBERATELY A PARANOID CULTURE
CREATED PRIOR TO THE WAR,
ABOUT 5 OR 6, 7 YEARS.
THERE WAS A PROPAGANDA OF...
THE SERBS BEING THREATENED BY EVERYBODY ELSE.
AND I KNOW PEOPLE WHO, BECAUSE OF THIS PROPAGANDA,
GOOD PEOPLE, WHO GENUINELY BELIEVED
THAT THEY ARE SOMEHOW THREATENED, SO THEY HAVE TO ATTACK
IN ORDER TO DEFEND THEMSELVES.
[CROWD CHANTS]
Goldhagen: AS HUTU LEADERS DID IN RWANDA,
THE SERB LEADER, SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC,
PLAYED ON BELIEFS HIS FOLLOWERS ALREADY HELD.
HIS RALLYING CRY WAS ONE THAT MOST SERBS WOULD EASILY EMBRACE:
UNDER HIS LEADERSHIP, SERBS WOULD RECLAIM THE LAND
THAT THEY BELIEVED WERE HISTORICALLY THEIRS,
INCLUDING THE PREDOMINANTLY MUSLIM COUNTRY OF BOSNIA HERZEGOVINA.
HE EXPLOITED CENTURIES-OLD ANIMOSITIES TOWARD MUSLIMS,
WHOM THE CHRISTIAN SERBS SAW AS THEIR ETERNAL ENEMIES.
WHAT THEY'RE BEING TOLD ABOUT BOSNIA'S--
ABOUT MUSLIMS, THEY ARE A THREAT TO THEM.
WHY DOES THIS MAKE SENSE TO THEM?
BECAUSE IT'S IN HARMONY WITH THE NATIONALIST MYTH
THAT MANY OF THEM HAVE BEEN FED FOR GENERATIONS,
AND THE LABELINGS OF THE VICTIMS
THAT THEY VIOLATED DURING THIS ACTIVITY FIT THAT MYTH.
[CROWD CHANTING]
Goldhagen: WHEN THOSE HARBORING POWERFUL HATREDS FINALLY ARE GIVEN THE CHANCE TO KILL,
THEIR EUPHORIA IS UNMISTAKABLE.
[WHISTLE BLOWING]
Goldhagen: IN BOSNIA, THE SERBS' PLAN WAS COMPREHENSIVE.
IT WAS DESCRIBED WIDELY AS ETHNIC CLEANSING,
A EUPHEMISM THAT TRIVIALIZES THEIR BRUTAL ACTS.
THEY ROUNDED UP MUSLIM MEN
AND PUT THEM IN CONCENTRATION CAMPS OR MURDERED THEM OUTRIGHT.
THEY EXPELLED FAMILIES FROM THEIR HOMES
AND FROM REGIONS WHICH THEY WANTED EXCLUSIVELY FOR SERBS.
AND IN THE CAPITAL CITY, SARAJEVO,
THEY ATTACKED THE CIVILIAN POPULATION FROM THE SURROUNDING HILLS.
[GUNFIRE]
[EXPLOSION]
[SIREN]
Man: THE BOSNIAN SERBS FIRED 12 MORTAR AND ARTILLERY ROUNDS LAST NIGHT
INTO A PART OF THE CITY CROWDED WITH YOUNG PEOPLE.
[GUNFIRE]
Sudetic: THE SNIPING ACTIVITY HERE WAS NOTORIOUS.
PEOPLE WALKING DOWN THE STREET WERE HUNTED LIKE ANIMALS.
SO WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED TO US IF WE HAD BEEN HERE?
WE WOULD HAVE BEEN SHOT FROM THOSE BUILDINGS OVER THERE.
THAT FAR AWAY? I MEAN, THE ROOF--
NO, THAT'S NOT FAR AT ALL.
I MEAN, A SNIPER COULD HAVE HIT US RIGHT HERE?
OH, YEAH, YEAH. DEFINITELY.
IT'S NOT A HARD SHOT FROM--
FOR A TRAINED SNIPER.
AND THESE WERE TRAINED PEOPLE. THEY WERE NOT, UH,
THEY WERE NOT YAHOOS WITH 12-GAUGES.
[GUNSHOT]
THESE WERE HIGH-POWERED HUNTING RIFLES.
THEY USED HIGH-POWERED SNIPER RIFLES
WITH VERY SOPHISTICATED SIGHT EQUIPMENT ON THEM.
AND IT'S--
YOU'D BE BANGED WITH A HEAD SHOT.
[GUNSHOT]
YOU COULD WALK ACROSS THIS STREET
IN BROAD DAYLIGHT AND NOTHING WOULD HAPPEN, BUT THEN--
[MACHINE GUNFIRE]
LIKE BAGGING PREY.
WERE THEY JUST AS LIKELY TO SHOOT WOMEN?
YES.
AND CHILDREN?
YEAH.
SO IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU BEING A SOLDIER, PER SE.
NO.
SO WHAT WAS-- I MEAN, WHAT WAS THE FUNCTION?
I MEAN, WHY WERE THEY
DOING THIS? TERROR.
[EXPLOSION, GUNFIRE]
GET RID OF THE MUSLIMS.
YEAH.
AND SO TERRORIZE THEM,
KILL AS MANY AS POSSIBLE--
YES.
PUSH AS MANY OF THEM INTO AS SMALL AN AREA AS POSSIBLE SO THEY COULD TAKE THE REST.
THEY KNEW EVERYTHING. THEY PREPARE EVERYTHING.
IT WAS REALLY ACTUALLY PLANNED AND SYSTEMATIC.
ACTUALLY SYSTEMATICALLY PLANNED, THE WAR,
OF ACTUALLY ESTABLISHING CONCENTRATION CAMPS,
KILLING, RAPING, EVERYTHING.
RAPING'S ONE OF THE WORST CRIMES.
IT NOT ONLY HUMILIATES THE PERSON,
IT DESTROYS THE FAMILY.
MM-HMM.
THERE IS SO MANY CASES OF UNWANTED CHILDREN.
THE MOTHER DOESN'T RECOGNIZE HER SON OR DAUGHTER
THAT CAME FROM THESE RAPINGS.
Goldhagen: THE SERBS' WIDESPREAD RAPING OF BOSNIAN WOMEN
WAS NOT THE KIND OF THING, AS MANY THINK,
THAT HAPPENS INEVITABLY IN WAR ZONES.
Muratcaus: THEY DID NOTHING, ACTUALLY...
Goldhagen, voice-over: LIKE KILLING,
THE SERBS USE RAPE AND RAPE CAMPS AS AN INTEGRAL COMPONENT
OF THEIR CAMPAIGN TO RID THE COUNTRY OF ITS MUSLIM POPULATION.
Muratcaus: WE WILL NEVER FIND OUT HOW MANY WOMEN WERE RAPED
ALL OVER BOSNIA.
THEY ACTUALLY POSED US
IN SOME BIG ROOMS WITH MAYBE 14 BEDS.
THEY ARE YELLING AT US, "YOU WILL HAVE SERBIAN BABIES, SERBIAN CHILDREN."
THEY WERE BEATEN,
HORRIBLY BEATEN
WITH FACE, WITH, ACTUALLY, THEIR LEGS AND...
HORRIBLE.
[COMPUTER KEYBOARD KEYS TAPPING]
THERE'S A LOT TO MAKE SENSE OF HERE.
IT SEEMS TO ME WE'VE BEEN MISSING A CRITICAL POINT
IN UNDERSTANDING THESE HORRORS.
THE MASTERMINDS OF GENOCIDE USE DIFFERENT MEANS
IN VARYING COMBINATIONS TO GET RID OF UNWANTED PEOPLE.
THEY EXPEL VICTIMS FROM THEIR COUNTRIES,
THEY HERD THEM INTO CAMPS,
THEY RAPE WOMEN IN AN ORGANIZED WAY,
AND OF COURSE, THEY SYSTEMATICALLY SLAUGHTER.
[COMPUTER KEYBOARD KEYS TAPPING]
SO WHAT WE OFTEN THINK OF AS GENOCIDE IS NEVER JUST ABOUT KILLING.
WHAT THE PERPETRATORS WANT MOST OF ALL
IS TO ELIMINATE A SUBSTANTIAL PART OR ALL OF THE TARGETED GROUP.
TERMS LIKE "GENOCIDE" OR EVEN "MASS MURDER"
ARE INADEQUATE TO DESCRIBE THE PHENOMENON WE HAVE REPEATEDLY WITNESSED.
AS A POLITICAL SCIENTIST, I LIVE AND WORK IN A WORLD OF ISMS.
THIS ONE WE SHOULD CALL ELIMINATIONISM.
REFRAMING THE WAY WE THINK ABOUT THESE DEEDS IS NOT JUST AN INTELLECTUAL EXERCISE.
IT'S A CRITICAL COMPONENT OF UNDERSTANDING
THAT GENOCIDE IS ONE PART OF A LARGER PHENOMENON THAT WE MUST COMBAT.
WE NEED TO BE ON ALERT WHEN WE SEE ANY FORM OF ELIMINATIONIST POLITICS,
WHETHER IT INITIALLY INCLUDES KILLING OR NOT.
EVERYWHERE IT IS PRACTICED, ELIMINATIONISM TAKES DIFFERENT FORMS.
RWANDA WAS DIFFERENT FROM BOSNIA,
CAMBODIA WAS DIFFERENT FROM TURKEY.
THE GERMANS' ASSAULT ON THE JEWS WAS ALSO DIFFERENT.
IT WAS THE ONLY CASE WHEN PERPETRATORS TARGETED EVERY ADULT AND CHILD,
WITHOUT EXCEPTION, FOR ANNIHILATION,
AND WHERE THAT MURDEROUS POLICY EXTENDED TO COUNTRY AFTER COUNTRY,
INCLUDING JEWS HALF A CONTINENT AWAY.
Goldhagen: SO IT'S 64 YEARS SINCE YOU'VE BEEN BACK, RIGHT?
YES, THAT'S RIGHT, YES.
AND--
AND I FEEL THE SADNESS AS I COME BACK
TO THIS PLACE WHERE I WAS ALMOST KILLED,
WHERE A GREAT PART OF MY FAMILY LIES BURIED.
HAD YOU--HAD YOU EVER--
HAD YOU PLANNED ONE DAY TO COME BACK ON YOUR OWN?
NO, NEVER. REALLY NOT.
UH, I PROBABLY WOULD HAVE NEVER COME BACK
HAD IT NOT BEEN THAT YOU WERE MAKING THIS FILM.
SO ARE YOU A RELUCTANT, IF WILLING, PARTICIPANT?
AN AMBIVALENT PARTICIPANT, I WOULD SAY.
Goldhagen: THE JEWS IN THE REGION WHERE MY FATHER LIVED
WERE KILLED, IN MOST CASES, BY THE EINSATZGRUPPEN--
MOBILE KILLING SQUADS CHARGED WITH EXTERMINATING EVERY JEW
IN THE SOVIET TERRITORY CONQUERED BY THE GERMANS.
THEY KILLED WITH BRUTAL ABANDON.
Goldhagen: IS THERE ANY-- IS THERE A POSITIVE SIDE FOR YOU TO GO BACK?
SHOWING ME THE PLACES YOU WERE--
YES, SHOWING YOU THE PLACES
BECAUSE YOU HAVE BEEN SORT OF AN ACADEMIC,
VERY SECLUDED,
NEVER...
FOR THE FIRST TIME-- YOU HAVE STUDIED
THIS PHENOMENON FROM A DISTANCE, THROUGH DOCUMENT.
COME NOW, YOU HAVE SEEN THE MASS GRAVES IN GUATEMALA.
AND YOU CERTAINLY SHOULD HAVE A LOOK AT THE MASS GRAVE
OF SOME OF YOUR RELATIVES, GRAVE OF MY PARENTS.
Goldhagen: THERE WERE 2,000 JEWS IN THIS TOWN WHEN MY FATHER USED TO VISIT HIS RELATIVES HERE.
NOW THERE ARE 3.
MOST LIE IN A MASS GRAVE NEAR WHAT IS NOW A POPULAR PICNIC SITE.
[BOYS SHOUTING]
[SPEAKING NATIVE LANGUAGE]
Goldhagen: LIKE MY FATHER, I HAVE ALWAYS ENDEAVORED TO SEPARATE MY EMOTIONS
FROM MY SCHOLARLY WORK ON GENOCIDE.
BUT HERE WE ARE, AT A MOMENT THAT I NEVER IMAGINED.
A LOCAL MAN HAS AGREED TO GUIDE US TO THE SITE
WHERE GERMANS MURDERED MY FATHER'S RELATIVES AND 2,000 OTHERS.
I SEE, I SEE.
OH, HERE WE CAN GO CLOSE.
Goldhagen: THE SCHOLAR'S JOB IS TO STAND BACK AND ANALYZE,
BUT THE SURVIVOR AND THE SON HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO DRAW NEAR.
"TO THE ETERNAL MEMORY
OF THE JEWS OF KOSOV..."
"WHO WERE MURDERED
"BY THE NAZI MURDERERS
AND THEIR HELPERS."
SO...
HOW MANY...PEOPLE FROM YOUR FAMILY
ARE LYING IN THIS MASS GRAVE--
I WOULD ESTIMATE IT OVER A DOZEN PEOPLE.
WERE YOU CLOSE TO THEM?
I WAS VERY CLOSE TO THEM. I VISITED THEM HERE,
AND IT EVOKES SOME CERTAIN EMOTIONS.
THE IMAGES OF SOME, OF ELDERS APPEAR BEFORE ME.
I SEE THEM NOW. AS I SPEAK TO YOU NOW, I SEE THEM.
SOMETIMES--AS YOU MAY REMEMBER WHEN I GAVE THE COURSE
ON THE HOLOCAUST AT HARVARD--
I EXPERIENCE SOMETIMES A SENSE OF GUILT
AT THE FACT THAT I SPEAK SO COOLLY
AND ANALYTICALLY OVER THEIR DEATH.
I'M YOUR SON IN MANY WAYS,
AND YOUR DISPASSION IS MY OWN.
HOW--HOW DID THEY DIE?
WHAT HAPPENED HERE?
WELL, THEY BROUGHT THEM UP HERE
AND KILLED THEM BY GUNFIRE.
ONE GROUP FELL INTO THE GRAVE.
THEN ANOTHER GROUP WAS LINED UP,
THEY FELL INTO THE GRAVE.
WHEN THEY WERE SHOT?
WHEN THEY WERE SHOT
UNTIL--AND MANY OF THEM WERE PROBABLY NOT KILLED,
MANY OF THEM WERE PROBABLY NOT DEAD.
THEY WERE ALIVE AS THEY FELL INTO THE GRAVE,
AND UKRAINIAN GROUPS WERE MADE TO COVER THE GRAVES.
YOU KNOW, AS WE'VE OFTEN SPOKEN BEFORE,
IT'S SHOCKING TO ME TO REFLECT ON HOW DETACHED I AM, TOO,
FROM THIS, THAT I DIDN'T EVEN MAKE
THIS OBVIOUS CONNECTION THAT WE WERE GOING HERE
WHEN I WAS IN A MASS GRAVE IN GUATEMALA,
BUT NOW THAT WE'RE HERE,
I REALIZE THAT SUDDENLY MY RELATIVES
MURDERED SIT BELOW US, LIE BELOW US
UNMARKED, UNKNOWN,
BARELY REGISTERED IN ANY WAY,
THEIR NAMES ABSENT, SOON TO BE FORGOTTEN COMPLETELY.
SHOULD WE GET SOME STONES, TATI?
PERHAPS WE BETTER PUT THEM ON EACH.
[INDISTINCT CHATTER]
[DRUMS BEATING]
[SINGING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
Woman: WELL, CERTAINLY, WE THOUGHT THAT WE WERE SAYING,
"NEVER AGAIN," BUT WE KEEP SAYING, "NEVER AGAIN,"
OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.
WELL, THERE ARE TWO DIFFERENT ISSUES.
WHY DOES THIS KEEP HAPPENING AGAIN,
AND WHY DOESN'T ANYBODY DO ANYTHING
TO STOP IT FROM HAPPENING AGAIN?
AND IT KEEPS HAPPENING BECAUSE
THERE ARE POLITICAL REGIMES THAT FIND IT USEFUL
TO DEAL WITH THEIR SELF-DEFINED PROBLEMS,
AND IT'S A VERY USEFUL TOOL.
THEY DO IT BECAUSE THEY KNOW THEY HAVE BASICALLY IMPUNITY,
AND THERE HAS BEEN VERY LITTLE CALLING TO ACCOUNT,
AND THEY GET AWAY WITH IT TIME AND TIME AGAIN.
SO QUITE CLEARLY, THE STATUS QUO IS CATASTROPHIC,
AND WHEN I SAY CATASTROPHIC,
I MEAN LITERALLY CATASTROPHIC
BECAUSE IT TAKES THE LIVES OF TENS OF THOUSANDS,
HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS,
MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS OF PEOPLE,
AND SO "NEVER AGAIN" IS A HOLLOW PHRASE.
IT'S WELL-MEANT, BUT IN THE WORLD
OF WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENS,
IT'S BEEN A HOLLOW PHRASE, A MOCKERY OF ITSELF.
THE INACTION OF WORLD LEADERS IN THE FACE OF MASS SLAUGHTER
GOES BACK WELL BEFORE THE HOLOCAUST,
AND GENOCIDAL LEADERS HAVE TAKEN NOTE.
STARTING IN 1915, THE TURKISH GOVERNMENT KILLED
AT LEAST A MILLION ARMENIANS
AND EXPELLED HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS MORE.
THE STORY OF THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE
WAS COVERED ON THE FRONT PAGE OF THE "NEW YORK TIMES,"
AND TURKEY'S LEADERS WERE EXPLICITLY WARNED
BY THE U.S. AND OTHERS THAT THEIR NATION
WOULD BE CONDEMNED BY THE WORLD,
BUT THE MASTERMINDS OF GENOCIDE WERE UNDETERRED.
THE TURKS BRAZENLY DESTROYED COMMUNITIES,
KILLED, RAPED, AND DROVE THE ARMENIAN PEOPLE
INTO THE DESERT, WHERE THEY STARVED TO DEATH.
FOR A CENTURY, TURKEY HAS REFUSED
TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE GENOCIDE,
AND REMARKABLY, MANY AROUND THE WORLD,
INCLUDING THE U.S. GOVERNMENT, HAVE ALLOWED THEM TO DO SO.
Man: THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE
IS THE ONLY GENOCIDE THAT WE HAVE TROUBLE RECOGNIZING,
AND IT'S BECAUSE THE CAMPAIGN OF DENIAL
CONTINUES TO THIS DAY.
Woman: OUR GOVERNMENT IS FLAT OUT WRONG
IN THEIR REFUSAL TO RECOGNIZE THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE.
WE MUST CALL GENOCIDE BY ITS NAME.
Schiff: WE CAN'T HAVE THE KIND OF LEADERSHIP
THAT WE NEED IN STOPPING GENOCIDE GOING ON TODAY
IF WE'RE EQUIVOCAL ABOUT THE MURDER OF OTHER PEOPLE
BECAUSE IT MIGHT OFFEND AN ALLY.
I SHOULD THINK THAT IT WOULD BE A NO-BRAINER
THAT A RESOLUTION BE PASSED TO ACKNOWLEDGE THIS.
WHAT'S THE PROBLEM?
WELL, IT SHOULD BE A NO-BRAINER.
AS IT IS, IT'S AN ENORMOUSLY DIFFICULT CHALLENGE.
WHEN THE GENOCIDE RESOLUTION WAS IN COMMITTEE LAST FALL,
THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES
WAS ON THE PHONE, CALLING COMMITTEE MEMBERS AT THEIR HOME
TO URGE THEM TO VOTE AGAINST IT.
FOR THIS RESOLUTION?
FOR THIS RESOLUTION.
WE ALL DEEPLY REGRET THE TRAGIC SUFFERING OF THE ARMENIAN PEOPLE
THAT BEGAN IN 1915.
THIS RESOLUTION IS NOT THE RIGHT RESPONSE
TO THESE HISTORIC MASS KILLINGS.
THE PROBLEM THAT WE HAVE
IS THAT THIS IS CLEARLY
A VERY SENSITIVE SUBJECT
FOR ONE OF OUR CLOSEST ALLIES.
YOU HAD MEMBERS OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF CALLING MEMBERS,
YOU HAD THE SECRETARY OF STATE CALLING MEMBERS.
I'VE NEVER SEEN A FULL-COURT PRESS LIKE THIS ON ANY RESOLUTION.
I DON'T THINK WE STRENGTHEN OUR RELATIONSHIP
EVEN WITH AN ALLY WHEN WE TURN A BLIND EYE
TO SOME OF THE WORST CHAPTERS IN HUMAN HISTORY.
Goldhagen: OUR POLITICIANS MAY FAIL TO LEARN FROM HISTORY,
BUT THERE IS AMPLE EVIDENCE THAT MASS MURDERERS
HAVE LEARNED QUITE WELL.
Man: SUDANESE PRESIDENT OMAR AL-BASHIR
HAS BEEN ACCUSED OF MASTERMINDING
A CAMPAIGN OF GENOCIDE IN DARFUR.
Goldhagen: 20 YEARS BEFORE THE RECENT CRISIS IN DARFUR,
THE SAME SUDANESE GOVERNMENT KILLED AND EXPELLED
EVEN MORE PEOPLE IN SOUTHERN SUDAN.
AFTER KILLING TWO MILLION THEN,
THE SUDANESE LEADER OMAR AL-BASHIR LEARNED
THAT THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY WOULD LET HIM DO IT AGAIN.
WHY DOES THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY FAIL TO INTERVENE TIME AND TIME AGAIN?
JUST TELL ME.
Madeleine Albright: AS OUR REPORT EMPHASIZES,
THE CHOICE WE FACE IN TRYING TO PREVENT GENOCIDE
IS RARELY A CASE OF ALL OR NOTHING.
THERE IS A BROAD RANGE OF FOREIGN POLICY OPTIONS
BETWEEN STANDING ASIDE AND ORDERING IN THE MARINES.
Goldhagen: THE CO-CHAIR OF A RECENT TASK FORCE ON THE SUBJECT,
FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE MADELEINE ALBRIGHT
SERVED AS U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS
DURING THE BOSNIAN AND RWANDAN GENOCIDES.
[ELEVATOR PINGING]
Goldhagen: YOU KNOW, IF ONE IS SIMPLY NAIVE,
ONE SEES A WORLD OF POWERFUL COUNTRIES USUALLY LOOKING ON
WITH SOME INEPTITUDE AT BEST AT COUNTRIES
THAT ARE POOR AND NOT VERY POWERFUL
IN WHICH THEIR LEADERSHIP IS SLAUGHTERING PEOPLE,
AND YOU WONDER HOW CAN THIS BE?
IF YOU GO TO PEOPLE AND YOU SAY,
"YOU CAN PREVENT MASS MURDER,"
THEN MOST PEOPLE WILL THINK,
"OK. I'LL DO THE BEST I CAN."
THE PROBLEM IS THAT WORLD LEADERS
OR LEADERS GENERALLY ARE DISTRACTED.
THERE'S SO MUCH TO DO.
IT ISN'T AS IF THEY'RE NOT DOING ANYTHING.
THERE'S NO WAY TO DESCRIBE TO SOMEONE
THAT HAS NEVER BEEN IN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT
OR ANY GOVERNMENT HOW MANY THINGS ARE HAPPENING EVERY HOUR
AND REQUIRE ATTENTION AND REQUIRE WILL AND REQUIRE RESOURCES.
THE QUESTION IS WHETHER YOUR GOVERNMENTAL SYSTEM
IS SET UP IN A WAY THAT YOU DON'T HAVE TO START FROM SCRATCH.
WE CAN TALK ABOUT RWANDA,
WHERE THERE WERE MANY DIFFERENT PLAYERS INVOLVED
AND PEOPLE HAD DIFFERENT DEGREES OF KNOWLEDGE
AT DIFFERENT TIMES ABOUT WHAT WAS GOING ON.
IT SEEMS THAT THERE WAS A CLEAR LACK OF WILL--
NOT GOODWILL IN THE SENSE OF COURSE PEOPLE DIDN'T WANT
THE PEOPLE THERE TO BE SLAUGHTERED,
BUT WILL ACTUALLY TO TAKE THE SACRIFICE
OR MAKE THE SACRIFICE THAT WAS NECESSARY
SEE, I DISAGREE WITH YOU.
THE BELGIANS PULLED OUT, DALLAIRE WAS-- YOU KNOW THE STORY.
DALLAIRE WAS CRYING OUT FOR MORE SUPPORT.
MAYBE NOT EVERYONE COULD HAVE BEEN SAVED,
BUT A LOT OF PEOPLE COULD HAVE BEEN SAVED.
I MEAN, THIS IS AN ISSUE THAT WEIGHS VERY HEAVY
ON ALL OUR HEARTS.
WE WERE AT THE SAME TIME DEALING
WITH SOMALIA, BOSNIA, HAITI,
A FEW OTHER THINGS THAT WERE GOING ON,
AND I THINK THAT PEOPLE DID NOT FULLY UNDERSTAND
ALL THE HUTU-TUTSI RIVALRY
AND THE INTERNAL THINGS THAT WERE BUILDING UP.
THAT, I THINK, WAS SOMETHING THAT HAD NOT BEEN PAID
ENOUGH ATTENTION TO.
IT IS MUCH EASIER EX POST FACTO
TO SAY WE KNEW THESE KINDS OF THINGS WERE GOING ON,
BUT AT THE TIME I WAS AMBASSADOR AT THE UNITED NATIONS,
AND I CAN TELL YOU THAT THE INFORMATION WAS NOT THERE.
Goldhagen: I DON'T KNOW WHAT KIND OF INFORMATION ALBRIGHT NEEDED,
BUT EVEN MORE THAN DURING THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE,
INFORMATION ABOUT THE RWANDAN GENOCIDE
WAS AVAILABLE TO ANYONE WITH ACCESS TO TV OR NEWSPAPER,
AS THERE WERE MULTIPLE SOURCES OF INFORMATION
COMING STRAIGHT FROM RWANDA,
WHERE EVERYONE KNEW.
AS SOON AS THE KILLING BEGAN, MANY TUTSI,
INCLUDING EMMANUEL GATARI,
MADE THEIR WAY TO A TECHNICAL SCHOOL,
WHICH WAS BEING PROTECTED BY U.N. PEACEKEEPERS.
AS THE LIVES OF EMMANUEL AND THE OTHERS WITH HIM HUNG IN THE BALANCE,
THE U.S. AND OTHER FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS
BEGAN TO EVACUATE THEIR CITIZENS FROM RWANDA.
[EMMANUEL SPEAKING NATIVE LANGUAGE]
[MACHINEGUNS FIRING]
Karugarama: AND THERE WERE SO MANY PEOPLE HAD RUN TO THE U.N.
FOR SECURITY, FOR PROTECTION,
AND THEY WITHDREW AND LEFT THEM THERE
TO BE MASSACRED IN COLD BLOOD.
THIS IS REALLY SOMETHING THAT THE U.N.
SHOULD BE ABLE TO EXPLAIN.
HOW DO YOU WITHDRAW PEOPLE WHO ARE SUPPOSED TO PROTECT PEOPLE
AT A TIME THAT IS SO CRITICAL,
AT A TIME WHEN YOU SEE THE KILLINGS HAD ALREADY STARTED?
Goldhagen: A LACK OF INFORMATION IS NOT THE REASON
WORLD LEADERS FAIL TO INTERVENE TO STOP GENOCIDES.
THE PROBLEM IS A LACK OF WILL.
FOR MORE THAN HALF A CENTURY, PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD
HAVE EXPECTED THE MEN AND WOMEN HERE AT THE UNITED NATIONS
TO PROTECT THEM,
AND TIME AND AGAIN, THE U.N. HAS LET THOSE PEOPLE DOWN.
I LOOK AROUND AT THE MANY STATES HERE THAT HAVE TERRORIZED,
OPPRESSED, AND ELIMINATED THEIR OWN PEOPLE,
AND I THINK, "WHY WOULD ANYONE LOOK TO THIS BODY
TO COMBAT THESE EVILS AROUND THE WORLD?"
IN 1948, THE UNITED NATIONS ADOPTED
AN ANTIGENOCIDE CONVENTION THAT LEGALLY DEFINED GENOCIDE
AND AUTHORIZED ITS MEMBER STATES
TO STOP AND PUNISH ACTS OF MASS MURDER.
THE DOCUMENT IS NOBLE-SOUNDING BUT TOTALLY INEFFECTIVE.
IT HAS NEVER ONCE BEEN INVOKED TO PREVENT THE DEATH
OF A SINGLE PERSON.
THERE'S A FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM HERE.
THE U.N. EXISTS LARGELY TO PROTECT STATE SOVEREIGNTY,
A STATE'S RIGHT TO BE IMMUNE FROM OTHER COUNTRIES
INTERVENING IN ITS INTERNAL AFFAIRS.
SO HOW CAN WE EXPECT TO ALSO PROMOTE INTERVENTION
WHEN A SOVEREIGN STATE AND ITS PEOPLE
ARE ELIMINATING, KILLING, RAPING, AND EXPELLING GROUPS OF ITS OWN CITIZENS?
Man: I DON'T SEE SOVEREIGNTY NEGATIVELY
AS A CONCEPT OF BARRICADING YOURSELF AGAINST THE WORLD
WHILE YOUR PEOPLE ARE SUFFERING.
I SEE IT AS A POSITIVE CONCEPT
OF THE STATE DISCHARGING ITS RESPONSIBILITIES
TOWARDS ITS OWN CITIZENS,
PROVIDING THEM WITH PROTECTION AND ASSISTANCE,
AND IF FOR LACK OF CAPACITY, YOU CANNOT DO IT,
CALL ON THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY TO COME AND HELP YOU
DO WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY IN THE FIRST PLACE.
YOU KNOW, I APPLAUD WHAT YOU DO, AND I AGREE,
AND I ALSO VERY MUCH LIKE
RECONCEPTUALIZING CONCEPTS THE WAY YOU HAVE
WITH SOVEREIGNTY, BUT YOU'RE
IN A MINORITY THERE, AS YOU WELL KNOW...
ABSOLUTELY.
AND EVEN IN THIS HALL IN PARTICULAR,
YOU WOULD BE IN A MINORITY
IF YOU WERE TO STAND UP AND TO GIVE AND SPEECH HERE,
AND IT SEEMS TO ME THAT SOVEREIGNTY
IS AN IMPORTANT PRINCIPLE,
BUT WE SHOULD MAKE CLEAR THAT IT DOES NOT GO SO FAR
AS TO ALLOW GOVERNMENTS TO SLAUGHTER THEIR PEOPLE
AND THAT THAT IN ITSELF, THOSE ACTS IN ITSELF ABRIDGE SOVEREIGNTY.
AND IF YOU DO NOT DISCHARGE YOUR RESPONSIBILITY
AND YOU DON'T WELCOME HELP, YOU HAVE NO WILL,
WE WILL TAKE OTHER MEASURES.
AND THESE OTHER MEASURES WE NEED TO DEVELOP TO BE A CREDIBLE THREAT,
BUT MEANWHILE, I'M JUST DOING WHAT IS IN MY CAPACITY TO DO.
AND YOU'RE DOING IT WELL.
Goldhagen, voice-over: THERE ARE WELL-MEANING PEOPLE HERE TO BE SURE,
BUT I'M AFRAID THEY'RE PART OF AN INSTITUTION
THAT IS SET UP TO FAIL.
THE U.N. IS NOT THE SOLUTION,
AS ITS APPALLING RECORD SHOWS,
BUT I DO THINK WE CAN DESIGN A SYSTEM
THAT WILL EFFECTIVELY STOP OR PREVENT FUTURE GENOCIDES.
THE FIRST COMPONENT MUST BE SWIFT DIPLOMATIC INTERVENTION.
A RECENT EPISODE HERE IN KENYA MAY OFFER A PROMISING MODEL FOR THE FUTURE.
Man: WHAT WAS ONCE ONE OF AFRICA'S MOST STABLE DEMOCRACIES
IS RIGHT NOW ONE OF THE MOST VIOLENT PLACES IN THE WORLD.
EXTREME CHAOS FOLLOWING A DISPUTED ELECTION IN KENYA,
MOBS TORCHING A CHURCH WITH HUNDREDS
OF REFUGEES INSIDE.
WITNESSES SAY DOZENS OF PEOPLE, INCLUDING CHILDREN,
WERE BURNED ALIVE OR HACKED TO DEATH WITH MACHETES,
AND THERE ARE NEW FEARS TODAY THAT KENYA IS IN DANGER
OF BECOMING THE NEXT RWANDA.
Goldhagen: IN JANUARY 2008, A SPATE OF KILLINGS
FOLLOWED THE REELECTION OF KENYAN PRESIDENT MWAI KIBAKI.
Man: CLEARLY, I THINK, THE IMMEDIATE TRIGGER
FOR THAT VIOLENCE WAS THE DISPUTED ELECTION RESULTS THAT HAPPENED,
BUT BEYOND THAT, I THINK THERE WERE ALSO
OTHER UNDERLYING ISSUES THAT CAME TO THE FORE,
ISSUES OF DISCONTENTMENT, ISSUES OF MARGINALIZATION,
RIFTS BETWEEN ETHNIC GROUPS IN THE COUNTRY,
ISSUES OF LAND, ISSUES OF HISTORICAL INJUSTICES.
SO ALL THESE THINGS CAME UP TOGETHER,
AND I THINK THAT THE ELECTION RESULTS,
THE WAY IT WAS HANDLED, THE PROCESS,
WAS REALLY LIKE THE MATCH THAT WAS THROWN
INTO A BARREL OF OIL.
[SINGING IN NATIVE LANGUAGE]
Goldhagen: IN THE RIFT VALLEY, MEMBERS OF THE PRESIDENT'S TRIBE, THE KIKUYU,
WERE TARGETED.
1,500 OR MORE WERE KILLED,
HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS WERE EXPELLED FROM THEIR HOMES.
IF THE KIKUYU HAD TRIED TO HOLD THEIR GROUND,
WOULD THE VIOLENCE HAVE ESCALATED
TO PRODUCE DEATHS ON A MASSIVE SCALE?
ABSOLUTELY. I THINK THE KILLINGS
WOULD HAVE DEFINITELY INCREASED.
I THINK IT WOULD HAVE DRAWN IN, ALSO, MORE COMMUNITIES.
Goldhagen: WITHIN DAYS, FORMER U.N. SECRETARY GENERAL KOFI ANNAN HAD FLOWN TO NAIROBI
ALONG WITH REPRESENTATIVES OF OTHER AFRICAN COUNTRIES.
I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT THAT ALL KENYANS
RESPOND WITH SYMPATHY AND UNDERSTANDING
AND NOT TRY TO REVENGE.
Goldhagen: THE U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE CONDOLEEZZA RICE ARRIVED
SOON AFTER.
THEY CAME TO MEDIATE, TO PRESSURE,
AND WITH THREATS OF SANCTIONS.
Kiai: I DON'T THINK I'VE EVER SEEN IN AFRICA
SUCH INTENSE INTERNATIONAL ENGAGEMENT ON AN ISSUE,
AND THAT REALLY HELPED.
Goldhagen: THE LONG-TERM EFFECTS OF THE DIPLOMATIC INTERVENTION
IN KENYA REMAIN TO BE SEEN.
THE VIOLENCE STOPPED,
BUT THE RACISTS AND POLITICAL ROOTS
OF THE CONFLICT RUN DEEP,
AND KENYAN POLITICAL LEADERS COULD START UP
THE VIOLENCE AGAIN,
BUT THE IMMEDIATE RESPONSE OF WORLD LEADERS
WAS A POWERFUL STATEMENT AND THE KIND OF RAPID REACTION
THAT COULD SAVE MANY LIVES IN THE FUTURE.
DIPLOMACY OF COURSE DOES NOT ALWAYS WORK.
Christiane Amanpour: THE U.N. IS ACCUSING THE SUDANESE GOVERNMENT
OF RESUMING BOMBING RAIDS AGAINST REBELS IN SOUTH DARFUR,
AND IT ALSO SAYS THAT DISPLACED VILLAGERS LIKE THESE
ARE STILL BEING ATTACKED BY JANJAWEED MILITIA.
Goldhagen: WHEN THE SUDANESE GOVERNMENT WAS MURDERING
ITS OWN PEOPLE IN THE WESTERN REGION OF DARFUR,
WORLD LEADERS SENT ENVOYS TO KHARTOUM.
BUT THE OIL-RICH REGIME CARES LITTLE ABOUT WORLD OPINION.
THEY CONTINUE TO KILL,
AND THE WORLD HAS DONE NOTHING MEANINGFUL TO STOP THEM.
WE NEED TO STOP PROVING TO POLITICAL LEADERS
THAT WE WILL STAND BY AS THEY SLAUGHTER THEIR OWN PEOPLE.
IF DIPLOMACY FAILS, COUNTRIES COMMITTING MASS ELIMINATIONS
SUCH AS SUDAN HAVE TO BE KICKED OUT OF THE U.N.
AND ALL INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS,
AND ALL TRADE MUST BE CUT OFF.
LEADERS THAT CONTINUE TO KILL MUST KNOW THAT WE WILL
SWIFTLY AND FORCEFULLY DESTROY THEIR MILITARY CAPABILITY.
Felde: SOME PEOPLE HAVE TALKED ABOUT SOME KIND OF RAPID RESPONSE FORCE.
I WOULD OF COURSE BE FOR INTERVENTION,
MILITARY INTERVENTION WHEN PEOPLE ARE BEING SLAUGHTERED.
IT SEEMS QUITE OBVIOUS THAT HAVING SOME KIND OF FORCE
THAT COULD INTERVENE RAPIDLY AND EFFECTIVELY
IN MANY OF THE COUNTRIES WHERE IT DOESN'T TAKE
A GREAT DEAL OF FORCE TO STOP THESE THINGS
IS AN ABSOLUTE MORAL AND POLITICAL NECESSITY.
SOME WOULD SAY THAT IF WE'RE GOING TO INTERVENE MILITARILY IN DARFUR
WHAT ABOUT CONGO?
CERTAINLY, MORE PEOPLE HAVE DIED THERE
IN THE PAST 10 YEARS.
SO PERHAPS THEN YOU'RE SUGGESTING
WE SHOULD INTERVENE THERE, AS WELL.
THESE KINDS OF ARGUMENTS I ALSO FIND UNPERSUASIVE.
IT IS QUITE TRUE THAT THE UNITED STATES IS NOT
THE POLICEMAN OF THE WORLD,
EVEN THOUGH IT IS THE GUARANTOR
OF MUCH OF ORDER IN THE WORLD.
IT REMAINS THAT, BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN
THAT IF INTERVENING IN DARFUR IS
THE RIGHT THING TO DO TO SAVE LIVES
THAT WE SHOULD NOT DO IT BECAUSE WE CAN'T INTERVENE EVERYWHERE.
I DON'T FIND THE ARGUMENTS AGAIN PERSUASIVE THAT,
WELL, YOU SHOULDN'T DO SOMETHING BECAUSE YOU CAN'T DO EVERYTHING.
OUR PROBLEM IS THAT WE DO LITTLE OR NOTHING AT ALL.
Silajdzic: THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY MUST HAVE
A MECHANISM THAT WILL QUICKLY REACT TO GENOCIDE.
THERE IS NO WAITING THERE,
THERE IS NO OTHER CONSIDERATION.
HUMAN LIFE MUST BE SAVED.
WE MUST ALL AGREE TO THIS.
IF THERE IS MASS KILLING SOMEWHERE,
THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY HAS THE RIGHT
TO INTERVENE.
YOU KNOW, WHEN IT BECOMES TOO LATE, IT'S TOO LATE.
Man: IN MANY INSTANCES, DIPLOMATIC EFFORTS
ARE GONNA BE UNSUCCESSFUL,
PARTICULARLY ONCE THE KILLING STARTS.
THE ONLY WAY YOU ARE GONNA STOP THAT
IS THROUGH THE USE OF MILITARY FORCE,
BUT IT'S GONNA BE VERY DIFFICULT
TO GET A WIDE CONSORTIUM OF COUNTRIES TO AGREE
THAT THERE'S AN AUTOMATIC TRIGGER
FOR MILITARY INTERVENTION.
IN DARFUR, YOU NEED AFRICAN GOVERNMENTS ON BOARD,
YOU NEED MIDDLE EASTERN GOVERNMENTS ON BOARD.
THIS HAS PROVED VERY DIFFICULT TO ACCOMPLISH.
YOU KNOW, I'M NOT A DIPLOMAT, AND I SAY WHY?
WHY DO WE NEED THEM ON BOARD?
I MEAN, YOU HAVE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE BEING SLAUGHTERED.
WHY DO WE NEED TO GET MIDDLE EASTERN GOVERNMENTS
OR AFRICAN GOVERNMENTS ON BOARD?
WHY NOT CREATE A NO-FLY ZONE,
WHY NOT BOMB THEIR MILITARY INSTALLATIONS?
FORGET ABOUT THE DIPLOMACY FOR A MINUTE.
WOULD IT BE EFFECTIVE, AND THEN HOW DO WE WEIGH IF IT WOULD BE
THE MORALITY OF IT VERSUS THE DIPLOMACY OF IT?
FROM THE MORAL PERSPECTIVE, YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
I MEAN, WE DO HAVE A MORAL OBLIGATION.
IF WE'RE IN A POSITION TO ACT
AND WE HAVE THE ACTUAL CAPABILITY TO DO SO,
THEN I THINK WE SHOULD,
BUT IF YOU HAVE A SITUATION WHERE YOU'RE
NOT ABLE TO GET SUPPORT OF OTHER GOVERNMENTS,
IT MAY BE COUNTERPRODUCTIVE.
Goldhagen: GETTING THE SUPPORT OF OTHER GOVERNMENTS
SOUNDS GOOD, BUT AS HARIS SILAJDZIC
EXPERIENCED DURING THE DAYS OF THE BOSNIAN GENOCIDE,
CONVINCING LEADERS TO INTERVENE MILITARILY
IS EXTRAORDINARILY DIFFICULT.
WHAT WAS IT LIKE FOR YOU TRYING TO MOBILIZE
THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, THE POLITICAL LEADERS
OF THE EUROPEAN COUNTRIES, OF THE UNITED STATES,
THE U.N., AND SO ON TO DO SOMETHING?
WELL, THAT IS VERY FRUSTRATING, THE POWERLESSNESS,
VERY FRUSTRATING.
IT'S HARD TO MOVE THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY
TO REALLY DO SOMETHING.
IT'S THE PHILOSOPHY OF, UH...
THE LEAST RESISTANCE.
"LET'S DO THE EASIEST THING IN THE WORLD, SO LET'S WAIT.
MAYBE IT WILL GO AWAY."
Goldhagen: AS WE HAVE SEEN TIME AND AGAIN,
WHEN WE WAIT TO INTERVENE, PROBLEMS DON'T GO AWAY.
THEY ONLY GET WORSE.
THIS IS THE STORY OF ANOTHER MASS MURDER
THAT DIDN'T HAVE TO HAPPEN.
BY THE TIME IT DID, THE ELIMINATION OF BOSNIA'S MUSLIMS
HAD BEEN GOING ON FOR 3 YEARS.
THE OUTSIDE WORLD KNEW WHAT THE SERBS WERE UP TO,
WE KNEW WE COULD STOP IT,
AND DAY AFTER DAY, WE CHOSE NOT TO TAKE EFFECTIVE MEASURES.
IN 1995, THE CITY OF SREBRENICA,
DESIGNATED A SAFE HAVEN FOR BOSNIAN MUSLIMS BY THE UNITED NATIONS,
FELL TO SERB FORCES.
WITHIN DAYS, THE SERBS KILLED 8,000.
EACH YEAR, SOME OF THE VICTIMS EXHUMED FROM MASS GRAVES
ARE POSITIVELY IDENTIFIED AND GIVEN A PROPER BURIAL
ON THE ANNIVERSARY OF THE MASSACRE.
AS SREBRENICA FELL, THE MUSLIMS SOUGHT REFUGE
SEVERAL MILES AWAY AT THIS FACTORY COMPLEX,
WHICH SERVED AS THE HEADQUARTERS
OF A SMALL U.N. PEACEKEEPING FORCE.
Sudetic: YOU HAD 25,000 PEOPLE,
MANY OF THEM ELDERLY, WOMEN, AND CHILDREN
GATHERED IN THE YARD AROUND THIS BASE, SEEKING PROTECTION.
AND I THINK AT THAT TIME THERE WERE APPROXIMATELY 300 DUTCH TROOPS THERE,
FAR, FAR BELOW ANYTHING THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN
A CREDIBLE DETERRENT TO ANY KIND
OF MILITARY ACTION ON THE GROUND.
Goldhagen: AFTER THEY CAPTURED SREBRENICA,
SERB SOLDIERS UNDER THE COMMAND OF THE NOTORIOUS MASS MURDERER GENERAL RATKO MLADIC ARRIVED
AT THE U.N. BASE TO DEAL WITH THE MUSLIM REFUGEES.
[CHILDREN CRYING]
Sudetic: AFTER A NIGHT OF TERROR,
THE SERBS ANNOUNCED THAT THEY WERE GOING TO BE
TRANSPORTED TO FRIENDLY LINES IN BUSES, DON'T BE AFRAID.
THEY BROUGHT COOKIES FOR CHILDREN.
[SPEAKING NATIVE LANGUAGE]
THE SERBS SEPARATE THE MILITARY AGE MEN.
WHAT THAT MEANT WAS PRETTY MUCH ANYBODY 12 AND ABOVE TO ONE SIDE,
AND THEN THE WOMEN AND CHILDREN AND THE OLDER PEOPLE
TO THE OTHER.
Goldhagen: THIS IS HOW EASY IT WOULD HAVE BEEN
TO SAVE THE LIVES OF SABAHETA'S SON
AND 8,000 OTHERS IN SREBRENICA.
Woman: EARLY MORNING RAIDS OF MORE THAN 60 AIRCRAFT
FROM AS MANY AS 5 NATIONS POUNDED AIR DEFENSE MISSILES...
Goldhagen: IN AUGUST 1995, TWO MONTHS AFTER THE EXPULSION
AND MASS MURDER IN SREBRENICA
AND 3 YEARS AFTER THE GENOCIDE BEGAN,
NATO FORCES BEGAN A BOMBING CAMPAIGN
AGAINST SERBIAN MILITARY TARGETS.
IN JUST 3 WEEKS, THE BOMBING CHANGED
MILOSEVIC'S CALCULATIONS.
IN SHORT ORDER, SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC WAS
AT THE NEGOTIATING TABLE, DISCUSSING THE PEACE TREATY
THAT WOULD END HIS DEPREDATIONS IN BOSNIA.
THE BOSNIAN GENOCIDE WAS OVER.
LET'S TURN THE CLOCK BACK.
WHAT HAPPENS IF IN 1992 NATO STARTED TO BOMB
AND NOT WAITED UNTIL 1995 TO DO SO?
OH, THAT WOULD HAVE STOPPED EVERYTHING DEFINITELY.
WE WOULD HAVE SAVED THE LIVES OF 100,000 PEOPLE?
NOT ONLY THAT. THE CREDIBILITY
OF THE INTERNATIONAL ORDER,
THE CREDIBILITY OF JUSTICE,
THE CREDIBILITY OF HUMANITY.
THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN SAVED.
Goldhagen: THE PERPETRATORS OF ELIMINATION
ALMOST ALWAYS ACT WITH TOTAL IMPUNITY.
HERE IN GUATEMALA, A GENOCIDAL MASTERMIND WALKS FREELY.
IN FACT, HE CONTINUES TO SERVE IN THE COUNTRY'S CONGRESS.
[SPEAKS SPANISH]
Goldhagen, voice-over: AT THE TIME THIS KILLER COMMITTED HIS CRIMES,
HE BELIEVED HE WOULD GET AWAY WITH MURDER.
SO FAR, HE'S BEEN PROVEN RIGHT.
JOSÉ EFRAÍN RÍOS MONTT LED THIS COUNTRY
FOR NEARLY TWO TERRIFYING YEARS,
DURING WHICH HE WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR A WIDESPREAD CAMPAIGN
OF TERROR AND SLAUGHTER.
I WANTED TO GET A LOOK AT THIS MAN IN PERSON,
AND I HOPED OTILIA LUX DE COTI
A MEMBER OF GUATEMALA'S CONGRESS,
WOULD HELP.
HI. NICE TO MEET YOU.
Doyle: THE RÍOS MONTT PLAN FOR 1982 WAS CALLED VICTORIA.
THESE ARE PLANS THAT LAY OUT THE BROAD STRATEGY
OF HOW THE ARMY WAS GOING TO DESTROY COMMUNISM
AND WIPE OUT THE GUERRILLAS,
AND THE PLANS ARE VERY EXPLICIT ABOUT THE NEED
TO GO INTO THE MAYAN COMMUNITIES AND DESTROY THEM.
THEY CONTAIN OPERATIONAL ORDERS
TO GO INTO CERTAIN VILLAGES,
WHICH WERE, IN FACT, MASSACRED AND RAZED,
AND AFTER ACTION REPORTS IN WHICH THE COMMANDERS OF THOSE UNITS SAY,
"DUTY DONE. WE'VE, UH--WE'VE
"COMPLETED THE OPERATION,
AND THE VILLAGE IS"--
UM, WHAT ARE SOME OF THE WORDS THEY USED?
"ELIMINATED." "THE VILLAGE IS ELIMINATED.
THE VILLAGE IS NEUTRALIZED."
[SPEAKING SPANISH]
Goldhagen: OTILIA LUX DE COTI IS TAKING ME
INTO THE HALLS OF CONGRESS,
WHERE THE FORMER DICTATOR MAINTAINS A POWERFUL PRESENCE.
IN THE ROUGH AND TUMBLE OF POLITICS,
THE CONGRESSWOMAN WORKS SIDE BY SIDE
WITH THE MAN RESPONSIBLE FOR THE MURDER
OF NEARLY 200,000 OF HER PEOPLE.
SEEING RÍOS MONTT IN THIS SETTING IS SURREAL.
IT'S LIKE ENCOUNTERING HITLER IN THE BUNDESTAG.
I HAVE STUDIED MASS MURDERERS FOR MORE THAN 3 DECADES,
BUT IT NEVER OCCURRED TO ME THAT I MIGHT ONE DAY STAND
BEFORE A GENOCIDAL MASTERMIND FACE TO FACE.
[SPEAKING SPANISH]
MAY I ASK YOU A QUESTION?
WAS THERE GENOCIDE IN GUATEMALA, AND WERE YOU RESPONSIBLE?
[SPEAKING SPANISH]
THE U.N. LAWS AND INTERNATIONAL CODES
HAVE A CONCEPT FOR GENOCIDE.
IT'S CLEARLY DEFINED.
WHEN YOU'RE GOING TO ELIMINATE AN ETHNICAL GROUP...
WHEN YOU'RE GOING TO ELIMINATE A RELIGIOUS GROUP...
OR A SPECIFIC GROUP OF PEOPLE.
THE DEFINITION CLEARLY STATES IT'S ELIMINATING SOMETHING.
THE DEFINITION STATES, ELIMINATING IN WHOLE OR IN PART
AN ETHNIC GROUP, WHICH THE MAYAN PEOPLE WERE.
HE AGREES WITH THAT.
AND SO WERE YOU RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS?
HE WOULD BE IN JAIL IF HE WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT.
Goldhagen, voice-over: I DON'T KNOW WHAT I WAS EXPECTING
BUT NOT THIS.
THE FORMER DICTATOR WAS EVASIVE AND COMBATIVE,
BUT REMARKABLY, HE STAYED TO TALK
FOR MORE THAN 20 MINUTES.
DO YOU ACCEPT THE HISTORICAL COMMISSION'S FINDING
THAT 200,000 INDIGENOUS MAYANS WERE KILLED
WHILE YOU WERE PRESIDENT BY YOUR MILITARY?
HE SAID THAT YOU SHOULD TAKE PROOF
AND CONVINCE HIM IN A COURT OF LAW.
STARING INTO THE EYES OF THIS KILLER,
I FEEL OUTRAGE AND DISGUST,
BUT MORE THAN ANYTHING, I AM REMINDED
THAT ALL OF THIS COMES DOWN TO A CHOICE.
MORE THAN 25 YEARS AGO AS THE POLITICAL LEADER OF HIS COUNTRY,
THIS MAN CONSIDERED HIS POLITICAL GOALS,
WEIGHED HIS OPTIONS, DECIDED HE COULD GET AWAY WITH IT,
AND MADE A CALCULATED DECISION TO MURDER AND EXPEL
HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF HIS COUNTRY'S PEOPLE.
THE QUESTION IS CAN WE GET FUTURE LEADERS TO MAKE A DIFFERENT DECISION?
I THINK WE CAN.
Woman: YOU KNOW, DANNY, YOU MIGHT BE SUGGESTING
WE CAN PREVENT ONE OF THE FEW THINGS IN THE WORLD
THAT PEOPLE SAY ARE UNSTOPPABLE
OR THAT WE HAVEN'T SEEMED TO BE ABLE TO STOP.
DO YOU THINK PEOPLE WILL JUST SAY,
"COME ON, DANNY. THAT'S--THAT'S NOT GONNA HAPPEN.
"IT'S NOT JUST ONE PERSON.
"WE'VE BEEN SCREAMING ABOUT THESE ISSUES FOR A LONG TIME,
AND THE LEADERS OF THE WORLD HAVEN'T LISTENED."
THE POLITICAL LEADERS WHO KILL OTHER PEOPLE
ARE OFTEN HATE-FILLED, POSSESSED BY IDEOLOGIES
THAT LEAD THEM TO SEE GROUPS OF PEOPLE
AS NECESSARY TO SLAUGHTER,
BUT THEY ARE NOT CRAZY.
THEY ARE RATIONAL CALCULATORS OF COSTS AND BENEFITS.
AFTER ALL, THESE PEOPLE HAVE RISEN
TO THE PINNACLE OF POWER IN THEIR COUNTRIES,
AND SO WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS THINK
ABOUT THEIR COST-BENEFIT CALCULUS.
LIKE RÍOS MONTT, ALL POLITICAL LEADERS
WHO INITIATE GENOCIDES AND ELIMINATIONS
KNOW THAT THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY
IS UNLIKELY TO INTERFERE WITH THEIR DEADLY PLANS.
Woman: THIS IS CASE NUMBER IT-95-5/18-I,
THE PROSECUTOR VERSUS RADOVAN KARADZIC.
Goldhagen: WE HAVE INTERNATIONAL COURTS,
AND THEY DO SOME GOOD,
BUT THEY ARE UNBEARABLY SLOW AND INEFFECTIVE...
Man: GOOD AFTERNOON, YOUR HONOR.
AND THE KILLING CONTINUES.
SO WHAT SHOULD WE DO?
FROM THE TRAGEDIES IN RWANDA AND ELSEWHERE,
WE'VE SEEN THAT THE INSTITUTIONS WE RELY ON
TO COMBAT GENOCIDE DON'T WORK,
AND IT'S CLEAR THAT AS IN KENYA TIMELY INTERVENTION
CAN GET POLITICAL LEADERS
TO STOP THE ELIMINATIONIST ASSAULT.
IN DEALING WITH A RECALCITRANT GENOCIDAL LEADER IN DARFUR,
WE'VE LEARNED THAT TO BE EFFECTIVE
INTERVENTION MUST OFTEN BE FORCEFUL
AND THAT, AS WAS THE CASE IN BOSNIA,
RELATIVELY LITTLE FORCE CAN ACHIEVE EXTRAORDINARY RESULTS,
AND WE KNOW ABOVE ALL THAT GENOCIDES ARE POLITICAL
AND THEY ARE INITIATED BY A FEW LEADERS
WHOSE COST-BENEFIT CALCULATIONS CAN BE CHANGED.
WE NEED TO CHANGE THAT CALCULATION.
Goldhagen: DO WE NEED TO HAVE A NEW INTERNATIONAL ORIENTATION
TOWARDS INTERVENTION AND GENOCIDE?
DEFINITELY.
HOW WOULD YOU REWRITE THE RULES
OF THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY ON THIS?
FIRST, GENOCIDE NEVER HAPPENS AS A SURPRISE.
NEVER.
THE SIGNS ARE USUALLY AVAILABLE AND APPARENT,
AND SO THERE SHOULD BE A DEBATE
AT THE U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL,
AT THE LEVEL OF THE EUROPEAN UNION,
AT THE LEVEL OF AFRICAN UNION,
OR OTHER POWERBROKERS
TO SET UNDER WHICH CIRCUMSTANCES
INTERVENTION WOULD BE DEEMED NECESSARY.
SO YOU DON'T WAIT UNTIL IT HAS HAPPENED.
THERE MUST BE PREVENTIVE MEASURES.
SO I THINK WE SHOULD GO BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD.
Goldhagen, voice-over: BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD INDEED.
GIVEN EVERYTHING I'VE SEEN AND STUDIED, THIS MUCH IS CLEAR.
INSTEAD OF THE U.N., WE NEED AN INTERNATIONAL WATCHDOG ORGANIZATION
MADE UP OF DEMOCRATIC NATIONS THAT WILL ENFORCE
A ZERO TOLERANCE POLICY ON GENOCIDE AND ELIMINATIONISM.
EACH OF THE MEMBERS MUST HAVE THE RIGHT TO INTERVENE
INDIVIDUALLY OR COLLECTIVELY
TO STOP CAMPAIGNS OF ELIMINATION,
BUT INTERVENTION, EVEN FORCEFUL INTERVENTION,
IS NOT ENOUGH.
BY THE TIME WE INTERVENE,
TENS OF THOUSANDS CAN BE DEAD OR HOMELESS.
WE NEED AN EFFECTIVE SYSTEM OF PREVENTION.
WE'VE GOT TO STOP GENOCIDES BEFORE THEY HAPPEN
BY SHOWING POLITICAL LEADERS THAT THE COSTS TO THEM
WILL FOR SURE FAR OUTWEIGH THE BENEFITS.
THE U.S. HAS A BOUNTY PROGRAM FOR GETTING PEOPLE
TO HUNT DOWN TERRORISTS.
WHY NOT HAVE DEMOCRATIC COUNTRIES DO THE SAME
FOR LEADERS WHO PERPETRATE GENOCIDES AND ELIMINATIONS?
LET'S SAY FOR EXAMPLE, THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY
DECLARED THE LEADERS OF COUNTRIES THAT COMMIT GENOCIDE
TO BE OUTLAWS.
THEY CAN BE HUNTED DOWN UNTIL THEY EITHER
GIVE THEMSELVES UP OR UNTIL THEY'RE KILLED.
WOULD MILOSEVIC UNDER THESE CIRCUMSTANCES
HAVE EVER INITIATED THE SLAUGHTER OF BOSNIANS?
I DON'T THINK HE WOULD.
HE COUNTED WITH POWERFUL FRIENDS
AND MOST OF ALL WITH THE FACTUAL SITUATION
ON THE GROUND, KNOWING THAT
THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY IS IN LOVE WITH THE STATUS QUO.
WE MUST SHOW THAT IT DOESN'T PAY.
IF PEOPLE KNEW THAT AT THE END OF THE DAY
THEY'D BE THE LOSERS,
THEY WOULD NEVER INVEST
IN A LOSING ENTERPRISE.
IT'S BECAUSE GENOCIDE IS A POLITICAL GAME,
IT'S A POWER PLAY, IT'S WORSE,
IT'S EVERYTHING.
IF PEOPLE INVOLVED IN KNEW AT THE END OF THE DAY
THEY'D BE THE LOSERS,
THEY WOULD NOT PLAY THE GAME, THAT'S FOR SURE.
Goldhagen: WHAT IS THE ALTERNATIVE TO DEALING
FORCEFULLY WITH GENOCIDAL LEADERS?
THE STATUS QUO,
MORE MASS MURDER, MORE LIVES DESTROYED.
THE KEY TO STOPPING GENOCIDE IS TO FOCUS ON THE LEADERS.
THE KEY TO GETTING US TO ACT IS TO IDENTIFY WITH THE VICTIMS,
TO THINK OF EACH ONE AS IF HE OR SHE WERE
YOUR DAUGHTER OR SON, YOUR SISTER OR BROTHER,
YOUR MOTHER OR YOUR FATHER.
WE'RE GONNA "T" INTO CAR--CAR-- CARMEN--
I DON'T KNOW HOW TO READ IT.
Goldhagen, voice-over: MY JOURNEY ENDS WITH MY FATHER
AT THE PLACE WHERE HIS BEGAN.
SHORTLY AFTER THE GERMANS AND THE ROMANIAN ALLIES ENTERED MY FATHER'S TOWN,
THEY SLAUGHTERED 800 JEWS.
MY FATHER AND HIS FAMILY WERE NEARLY EXECUTED
ON A DIRT ROAD BEHIND THEIR HOUSE
SOMEWHERE IN THIS NEIGHBORHOOD.
DO YOU SEE ANY TRACKS?
THEY SHOULD BE STRAIGHT AHEAD.
IF WE END HERE, THE TRACKS SHOULD BE RIGHT DOWN HERE.
HERE THEY ARE.
TATI, SEE THE TRACKS?
I DON'T KNOW. DO YOU SEE THEM?
YES, THEY'RE RIGHT THERE.
OH, I SEE. YEAH. THAT WAS HERE.
I LIVED RIGHT HERE.
I RAN OUT WITH MY FATHER BEYOND FROM THERE.
OUT THE OTHER SIDE?
YES. I REMEMBER WE RAN OVER A FENCE,
AND AS WE WERE RUNNING, A SOLDIER SPIED US
AND BEAT MY FATHER VERY SEVERELY
WITH THE BUTT OF HIS RIFLE
AND PUT US AGAINST-- SAID, "WAIT HERE,"
PUT US AGAINST-- OF COURSE THERE WAS A FENCE--
AGAINST THE FENCE,
AND THEN HE TOLD ME TO TELL THE FAMILY TO COME--
TO COME OUT.
SO HE SENT YOU BACK TO THE HOUSE?
HE SENT ME BACK TO THE HOUSE,
AND WE SAW NEIGHBORS STANDING BEYOND THIS RAILWAY,
AND WE REALIZED THAT THEY'RE LOOKING AT US
IN A CERTAIN WAY THAT THEY-- IN AN OMINOUS WAY.
THEY--WHICH DIDN'T-- WHICH DIDN'T BODE WELL, TO SAY THE LEAST.
NOW THAT WE'RE HERE, IS THIS--HAS IT CHANGED YOUR VIEW?
YOU SEE, THE POINT IS THAT THE SCHOLARLY ELEMENT--
THE SCHOLAR WITHIN ME IMMEDIATELY TAKES OVER THE--
AND OVERSHADOWS THE EMOTIONS OF THE SURVIVOR
WHO REVISITS THE SCENE OF HIS NEAR DEATH.
SO AS I TALK TO YOU, I BEGIN TO REFLECT,
DRAW HISTORICAL ANALOGIES, AND SO ON,
SO THEREFORE, IT HAS A CERTAIN TEMPERING EFFECT
UPON MY EMOTIONS AS I CONFRONT
THIS HOUSE WHERE I LIVED,
THIS STREET WHERE I WALKED,
AND REFLECTED ON MY BLOOD LYING IN THE DUST HERE,
BUT WHEN I REMEMBER THAT MOMENT AS I WALKED
AND I JUST COULDN'T BELIEVE--
YES, I DID REFLECT UPON HOW I WOULD LIE DEAD.
WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE DEAD
AND TO LIE IN YOUR BLOOD?
I REMEMBERED VIVIDLY THIS IMAGERY THAT I HAD AS I WALKED, AND...
Goldhagen, voice-over: WHAT MUST IT FEEL LIKE FOR A 10-YEAR-OLD BOY
TO CONTEMPLATE HIS OWN IMMINENT, VIOLENT DEATH
OR A 16-YEAR-OLD GIRL OR A 19-YEAR-OLD MAN?
WHAT MUST IT FEEL LIKE TO BE IMPRISONED IN A RAPE CAMP
OR TO WATCH HELPLESSLY AS MEMBERS OF YOUR FAMILY ARE KILLED
OR AS YOUR PEOPLE ARE DECIMATED?
WHAT MUST IT HAVE BEEN LIKE FOR THE MEN OF SREBRENICA
WHO WERE HERDED INTO THIS WAREHOUSE
OR FOR THE OTHERS FORCED AT GUNPOINT
INTO NEARBY FIELDS TO BE EXECUTED?
[SPEAKING NATIVE LANGUAGE]
[GUNSHOT]
[RAPID GUNSHOTS]
[GUNFIRE CONTINUING]
Goldhagen: WE CAN'T STAND BY ANYMORE.
PEOPLE ARE DYING EVERY DAY.
A FEW POLITICAL LEADERS START GENOCIDES.
A FEW POLITICAL LEADERS CAN STOP THEM.
THE PRESIDENTS AND PRIME MINISTERS WE ELECT
HAVE THE POWER TO END IMPUNITY AND CHANGE THE CHOICES
POTENTIAL MASS KILLERS MAKE.
WE MUST HOLD OUR LEADERS ACCOUNTABLE AND DEMAND
THAT THEY BRING AN END TO GENOCIDE AND ELIMINATIONISM.
[INDISTINCT CHATTER]
THANK YOU. HOW DO YOU SAY THANK YOU?
I NEVER REMEMBER ANYTHING.
[MAN SPEAKS NATIVE LANGUAGE]
[REPEATS PHRASE]
EVERYONE.
Goldhagen, voice-over: I HAD BEEN WORKING ON "WORSE THAN WAR"
FOR ABOUT 10 YEARS BEFORE THE FILM PROJECT BEGAN.
WHEN I WRITE A BOOK, I CAN PRETTY MUCH SAY WHATEVER I WANT TO,
AND IF I DECIDE SOMETHING NEEDS 20 PAGES OF ELABORATION,
THEN I DO IT.
EVEN THOUGH I HAD THOUGHT AT THE BEGINNING,
"WELL, I KNOW WHAT THIS FILM SHOULD SAY,"
IT TURNED INTO SOMETHING QUITE DIFFERENT
AND INFINITELY BETTER THAN ANYTHING
I WOULD HAVE PRODUCED HAD I BEEN THE FILMMAKER
BECAUSE I PROBABLY WOULD HAVE PRODUCED A NICE TWO-HOUR LECTURE
OF SOME KIND WITH VISUALS
INSTEAD OF A FILM THAT IS VISUALLY ARRESTING
AND EMOTIONALLY EVOCATIVE
AND, AS POWERFUL AS THE BOOK IS,
IN SOME WAYS OBVIOUSLY MORE POWERFUL.
WHEN MY FATHER AND I WENT TO WHERE HE HAD LIVED DURING THE HOLOCAUST,
SARAH MY WIFE AND GIDEON OUR SON CAME WITH US.
GIDEON AT THE TIME WAS 7 YEARS OLD,
AND HE WAS DEEPLY INTERESTED.
HE'S VERY CLOSE MY PARENTS. THEY LIVE NEARBY.
HE WAS DEEPLY INTERESTED IN GOING TO WHERE GRANDPA WAS FROM.
SO THEY CAME ON THE TRIP WITH US,
AND IT WAS SOMETHING THAT MADE MY FATHER ENORMOUSLY HAPPY.
THAT ONE OF HIS GRANDCHILDREN COULD SEE WHERE
MY FATHER CAME FROM AND WHERE HE SUFFERED
AND WHERE HIS FAMILY SUFFERED
MADE THE TRIP, IF ONE CAN SAY SUCH A THING,
TWICE AS MOVING AND MEMORABLE AND MEANINGFUL FOR HIM.
THERE'S NO DOUBT THAT MY FATHER INFLUENCED
MY INITIAL DIRECTION OF WORKING ON THE HOLOCAUST,
BUT IT'S LESS BECAUSE HE WAS A SURVIVOR
THAN HE WAS A PROFESSOR WHO STUDIED THIS,
AND I GREW UP WITH THIS MATERIAL IN MY HOME
ALWAYS WITH THE PURPOSE NOT OF TELLING A TALE OF WOE,
WHICH IT IS, BUT OF UNDERSTANDING AND EXPLAINING.
THIS WAS ALWAYS MY ORIENTATION FROM THE TIME I CAN REMEMBER
KNOWING OR THINKING ABOUT IT OR DISCUSSING IT,
BUT IT CHANGES YOU TO SEE THE PLACES.
THE CLICHÉ "A PICTURE'S WORTH A THOUSAND WORDS"
ONLY BEGINS TO CONVEY WHAT BEING IN A PLACE
AND SITTING ACROSS FROM THE VICTIMS
AND SEEING THE LOCATIONS WHERE PEOPLE WERE SLAUGHTERED
AND BEING IN A FORENSIC LAB WITH THE REMAINS OF VICTIMS
OR BEING IN A MASS GRAVE
OR STANDING ACROSS FROM A MASTERMIND OF GENOCIDE
SUCH AS RÍOS MONTT.
IT CHANGES YOU.
IT IS MORE THAN WORTH A THOUSAND WORDS.
IT'S WORTH ENDLESS, ENDLESS VOLUMES OF WORDS.
IN RWANDA, WE GAINED ACCESS TO ONE OF THE PRISON CAMPS.
IT'S ACTUALLY A WORK CAMP FOR PRISONERS WHO CONFESSED
TO THEIR CRIMES, OR AT LEAST SOME CRIMES,
TO CONFESS TO HAVING PARTICIPATED IN THE GENOCIDE.
IF YOU CAN BELIEVE THAT, THERE ARE ABOUT 1,000 PEOPLE IN THIS PRISON.
THERE WERE NO GUARDS.
SO WE INTERVIEWED THE PERPETRATORS IN THE FIELD.
THE WARDEN JUST BROUGHT PEOPLE TO US.
WE HAD NO IDEA WHO WE'D BE TALKING TO,
AND ALSO, WE WALKED AMONG THEM.
THEY WERE TILLING THE GROUND WITH HOES AND PICKS AND MACHETES,
CLEARING IT, AND YOU'RE WALKING AMONG THEM
WITHIN FEET OF ROWS OF THEM WIELDING THESE IMPLEMENTS,
AND YOU CAN'T BUT THINK THESE ARE THE IMPLEMENTS THEY USED TO SLAUGHTER
THEIR VICTIMS DURING THE GENOCIDE
BY THE INDIVIDUALLY, BY THE TENS, BY THE HUNDREDS,
BY THE THOUSANDS ULTIMATELY.
OK.
TELL ME WHEN.
SHAKING THE HAND OF A KILLER BEFORE I EVEN KNOW ANYTHING ELSE
ABOUT HIM EXCEPT FOR WHAT HIS NAME IS,
IS A STRANGE THING.
IT'S AN ACT OF POLITENESS.
IT'S A TIME OF HUMAN SHARING,
AND YET THAT SAME HAND-- I SHAKE THE HAND.
I THINK THE SAME HAND ACTUALLY WAS WIELDING A MACHETE
AND STRIKING AND KILLING
AND HACKING TO DEATH OTHER PEOPLE,
AND YOU CAN'T FLINCH,
AND YOU CAN'T SAY, "I DON'T WANT TO DO IT,"
AND YOU HAVE TO DO IT BECAUSE IT'S PART
OF WHAT YOU NEED TO DO WHEN YOU INTERVIEW SOMEBODY,
AND THAT'S JUST THE BEGINNING OF SITTING ACROSS FROM SOMEONE
WHO THEN BEGINS TO TELL YOU OF THE HORRIBLE THINGS,
THE HORRIFYING THINGS THAT HE DID,
THE WAYS THAT HE DID IT.
AND SO THERE I AM, A WHOLE JUMBLE OF EMOTIONS
AND THOUGHT AND DIFFERENT ORIENTATIONS AT THE SAME TIME--
THE INTERVIEWER, THE SCHOLAR THINKING ABOUT WHAT HE SAYS,
THE ANALYST, THE HUMAN BEING SITTING
ACROSS FROM A MASS MURDERER,
FEELING A DEGREE OF SYMPATHY OR EVEN OF LIKING FOR SOMEONE,
BECAUSE SOME SEEM LIKEABLE,
AND ALSO ALWAYS KEEPING IN MIND THAT THESE ARE MASS MURDERERS.
TO BE ABLE IN MAKING THIS FILM TO GO TO ANY NUMBER OF COUNTRIES
AND TO TALK TO THE VICTIMS, TO TALK TO THE PERPETRATORS,
JUST TO SEE THE PLACES I'D READ ABOUT
WAS TRANSFORMATIVE,
AND I THINK BACK ON THE PEOPLE QUITE OFTEN I TALKED TO.
THEY RESONATE WITH ME. THEIR FACES I SEE.
IN THE FILM, MY FATHER AND SOME OTHERS TALKED ABOUT SEEING FACES.
THEY'RE HAUNTED BY THEM, OR THEY REMEMBER THEM,
THE FACES OF THE PEOPLE WHO DIED.
WELL, THE FACES OF THE PEOPLE I SPOKE WITH AND THEIR WORDS ARE WITH ME
IN THE WAY THAT THE TESTIMONY IN DOCUMENTS
AND COURT TESTIMONY AND SO ON NEVER ARE WITH ME.
I HEAR THEM, I SEE THEM, I THINK ABOUT THEM.
I ABSORBED AND INTERNALIZED THINGS INTO MY BEING
THAT WERE NEVER THERE AND THAT WILL NEVER LEAVE ME.
Announcer: "WORSE THAN WAR" WAS MADE POSSIBLE BY...
AND...
ADDITIONAL FUNDING WAS PROVIDED BY...
CAPTIONING MADE POSSIBLE BY FRIENDS OF NCI
CAPTIONED BY THE NATIONAL CAPTIONING INSTITUTE --www.ncicap.org--
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