WEBVTT 00:00:04.470 --> 00:00:05.571 [REPORTERS TALKING ALL AT ONCE] 00:00:05.571 --> 00:00:05.571 DARFUR... 00:00:05.571 --> 00:00:05.571 GUATEMALA... 00:00:05.571 --> 00:00:06.906 THE NAZI KILLERS... 00:00:06.906 --> 00:00:08.041 Narrator: GENOCIDE. 00:00:08.041 --> 00:00:08.041 I MEAN, WHY WERE THEY DOING THIS? 00:00:08.041 --> 00:00:09.242 TERROR. 00:00:09.242 --> 00:00:11.577 BEST-SELLING HISTORIAN DANIEL GOLDHAGEN 00:00:11.577 --> 00:00:13.346 EXPLORES THE MOTIVE... 00:00:13.346 --> 00:00:15.515 GENOCIDE NEVER HAPPENS AS A SURPRISE. 00:00:15.515 --> 00:00:17.450 AND EXPLODES THE MYTH... 00:00:17.450 --> 00:00:18.918 THESE PEOPLE HAD TO BE ELIMINATED. 00:00:18.918 --> 00:00:20.653 BEHIND A CRIME... 00:00:20.653 --> 00:00:22.488 IT WAS CRUELTY THAT OVERCAME US, 00:00:22.488 --> 00:00:23.790 ME AND MY FELLOW CRIMINALS. 00:00:23.790 --> 00:00:26.159 GENOCIDE IS ALWAYS POLITICS. 00:00:26.159 --> 00:00:28.661 THAT'S WORSE THAN WAR. 00:00:28.661 --> 00:00:33.433 CAPTIONING MADE POSSIBLE BY FRIENDS OF NCI 00:00:33.433 --> 00:00:36.436 "WORSE THAN WAR" WAS MADE POSSIBLE BY... 00:00:36.436 --> 00:00:41.441 THE PERSHING SQUARE FOUNDATION... 00:00:41.441 --> 00:00:47.447 AND THE EINHORN FAMILY CHARITABLE TRUST. 00:00:47.447 --> 00:01:07.900 ADDITIONAL FUNDING WAS PROVIDED BY... 00:01:07.900 --> 00:01:14.907 [BIRD CHIRPING] 00:01:14.907 --> 00:01:18.411 Man: SO ALL THE PEOPLE HERE MURDERED OTHER PEOPLE? 00:01:18.411 --> 00:01:21.414 [TRANSLATOR SPEAKS NATIVE LANGUAGE] 00:01:21.414 --> 00:01:55.982 YES. YOU CAN'T BE HERE IF YOU HAVEN'T KILLED. 00:01:55.982 --> 00:02:04.090 [BIRD CHIRPING] 00:02:04.090 --> 00:02:07.326 CAN YOU SHOW ME HOW YOU-- HOW THE PERSON WAS HACKED? 00:02:07.326 --> 00:02:47.433 [TRANSLATOR SPEAKS NATIVE LANGUAGE] 00:02:47.433 --> 00:02:51.604 I'VE BEEN THINKING AND WRITING ABOUT GENOCIDE FOR NEARLY 30 YEARS, 00:02:51.604 --> 00:02:54.607 IT'S SOMETHING PEOPLE DON'T MUCH LIKE TO TALK ABOUT 00:02:54.607 --> 00:02:58.611 AND ABOUT WHICH MOST OF US REMAIN DANGEROUSLY MISINFORMED. 00:02:58.611 --> 00:03:02.548 Woman: GOOD EVENING. A NEW BOOK CALLED "HITLER'S WILLING EXECUTIONERS," 00:03:02.548 --> 00:03:04.550 A HIGHLY CONTROVERSIAL ACCOUNT OF THE HOLOCAUST... 00:03:04.550 --> 00:03:06.052 Man: THE AMERICAN DANIEL GOLDHAGEN SAYS 00:03:06.052 --> 00:03:09.555 THE EXCUSE OF ONLY OBEYING ORDERS WON'T WASH. 00:03:09.555 --> 00:03:12.058 [MAN SPEAKS NATIVE LANGUAGE] 00:03:12.058 --> 00:03:14.393 Jane Pauley: A CONTROVERSIAL BOOK ABOUT THE HOLOCAUST, 00:03:14.393 --> 00:03:16.395 RAISING A TROUBLING NEW QUESTION: 00:03:16.395 --> 00:03:18.397 WERE NAZI KILLERS HELPED 00:03:18.397 --> 00:03:21.601 BY HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF ORDINARY GERMANS? 00:03:21.601 --> 00:03:25.104 THEY SUBJECTED THE VICTIMS TO GRATUITOUS BRUTALITY, 00:03:25.104 --> 00:03:26.772 INCESSANT CRUELTY, 00:03:26.772 --> 00:03:28.941 SO THE PICTURE THAT EMERGES IS NOT OF RELUCTANT PEOPLE 00:03:28.941 --> 00:03:31.110 WHO ARE COMPELLED TO DO WHAT THEY DID, 00:03:31.110 --> 00:03:34.113 BUT PEOPLE WHO AGREED WITH THE PROGRAM, WHO BELIEVED 00:03:34.113 --> 00:03:40.786 THAT THE DEATH OF THE JEWS WAS NECESSARY AND JUST. 00:03:40.786 --> 00:03:44.290 Goldhagen: I'VE SPENT MY PROFESSIONAL LIFE TRYING TO DISPEL THE MANY MYTHS 00:03:44.290 --> 00:03:46.792 THAT CLOUD PEOPLE'S JUDGMENT AND PREVENT US FROM DOING 00:03:46.792 --> 00:03:56.469 SOMETHING EFFECTIVE TO STOP THE KILLING. 00:03:56.469 --> 00:03:59.472 GENOCIDES HAPPEN IN EVERY CORNER OF THE WORLD, 00:03:59.472 --> 00:04:03.309 THROUGH EVERY TYPE OF PEOPLE. 00:04:03.309 --> 00:04:09.882 THE NUMBERS IN THE PAST 100 YEARS ARE STAGGERING. 00:04:09.882 --> 00:04:14.887 THE TURKS SLAUGHTERED MORE THAN A MILLION ARMENIANS DURING WORLD WAR I. 00:04:14.887 --> 00:04:17.890 IN THE 1930s AND 1940s, 00:04:17.890 --> 00:04:22.695 THE JAPANESE KILLED MILLIONS ACROSS ASIA. 00:04:22.695 --> 00:04:24.130 IN THE SOVIET UNION, 00:04:24.130 --> 00:04:26.599 THE ESTIMATED NUMBER OF DEATHS IN THE GULAG CAMPS 00:04:26.599 --> 00:04:30.836 AND BEYOND IS MORE THAN 8 MILLION. 00:04:30.836 --> 00:04:33.539 THE GERMANS SLAUGHTERED 6 MILLION JEWS 00:04:33.539 --> 00:04:36.509 AND MILLIONS MORE DURING WORLD WAR II. 00:04:36.509 --> 00:04:38.511 IN THE 1950s AND 1960s, 00:04:38.511 --> 00:04:43.049 THE COMMUNIST CHINESE KILLED AN ESTIMATED 30 MILLION, 00:04:43.049 --> 00:04:45.051 AND DURING THE 1970s, 00:04:45.051 --> 00:04:48.554 THE KHMER ROUGE KILLED 1.7 MILLION CAMBODIANS-- 00:04:48.554 --> 00:04:52.491 FULLY 20% OF THEIR COUNTRY'S POPULATION. 00:04:52.491 --> 00:04:54.593 BOSNIA, 00:04:54.593 --> 00:04:55.695 RWANDA, 00:04:55.695 --> 00:04:56.696 CONGO, 00:04:56.696 --> 00:04:58.698 DARFUR. 00:04:58.698 --> 00:05:01.133 ALL TOLD, IN OUR TIME 00:05:01.133 --> 00:05:05.705 THERE HAVE BEEN MORE THAN 100 MILLION INNOCENT VICTIMS OF GENOCIDE-- 00:05:05.705 --> 00:05:09.709 MORE THAN ALL THE COMBAT DEATHS IN ALL THE WARS FOUGHT 00:05:09.709 --> 00:05:13.212 DURING THAT TIME EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD. 00:05:13.212 --> 00:05:17.717 BASED ON THE HUMAN TOLL ALONE, GENOCIDE AND MASS SLAUGHTER 00:05:17.717 --> 00:05:21.721 ARE WORSE PROBLEMS PLAGUING HUMANITY THAN WAR. 00:05:21.721 --> 00:05:27.226 WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND WHY. 00:05:27.226 --> 00:05:30.229 Man: IT IS A GREAT, DIFFICULT TASK YOU'RE FACING 00:05:30.229 --> 00:05:35.134 TO CONVEY HUMAN BEINGS WHOSE BEHAVIOR SEEMS TO DEFY UNDERSTANDING, 00:05:35.134 --> 00:05:37.136 AND THEY WERE BEYOND BELIEF. 00:05:37.136 --> 00:05:39.138 Goldhagen, voice-over: IN MY WORK, I HAVE BENEFITED FROM THE WISDOM 00:05:39.138 --> 00:05:40.639 OF A VALUED MENTOR, 00:05:40.639 --> 00:05:42.141 A SCHOLAR OF GENOCIDE, 00:05:42.141 --> 00:05:44.143 AND SURVIVOR OF THE HOLOCAUST. 00:05:44.143 --> 00:05:46.145 BUT, YOU KNOW, AT THIS POINT, THOUGH-- 00:05:46.145 --> 00:05:48.547 BUT LET ME JUST REMIND YOU... 00:05:48.547 --> 00:05:50.549 HE ALSO HAPPENS TO BE MY FATHER. 00:05:50.549 --> 00:05:53.052 WHEN THE FIRST NEWS OF THE GAS CHAMBERS CAME, 00:05:53.052 --> 00:05:56.555 THE JEWISH COMMUNITY WAS VERY SKEPTICAL OF IT. 00:05:56.555 --> 00:05:58.557 RIGHT, BUT WE'RE IN A DIFFERENT TIME NOW. 00:05:58.557 --> 00:06:00.493 NOBODY DISBELIEVES THAT THESE THINGS HAPPENED. 00:06:00.493 --> 00:06:01.994 THAT'S QUITE TRUE. 00:06:01.994 --> 00:06:03.929 WHAT THEY HAVE DIFFICULTY UNDERSTANDING-- 00:06:03.929 --> 00:06:05.998 IS WHY IT HAPPENED, YES. 00:06:05.998 --> 00:06:09.001 AND ACCEPTING NOTIONS THAT VIOLATE THEIR OWN 00:06:09.001 --> 00:06:11.003 COMMON-SENSE UNDERSTANDINGS OF THE WORLD. 00:06:11.003 --> 00:06:13.005 THERE'S A CERTAIN PARADOX HERE 00:06:13.005 --> 00:06:16.008 BECAUSE SOMETIMES ONE ACCEPTS VERY HIGHLY, 00:06:16.008 --> 00:06:19.011 SEEMINGLY ORIGINAL, PROFOUND THEORIES, 00:06:19.011 --> 00:06:23.616 AND SOMETIMES THE EXPLANATION IS RELATIVELY SIMPLE. 00:06:23.616 --> 00:06:26.619 I THINK THE ACTUAL EXPLANATIONS ARE-- 00:06:26.619 --> 00:06:29.121 ARE THREATENING AND UNSETTLING TO PEOPLE. 00:06:29.121 --> 00:06:32.625 THE NOTION THAT ORDINARY PEOPLE WOULD WILLFULLY BUTCHER OTHER PEOPLE, 00:06:32.625 --> 00:06:35.161 TORTURE THEM, INCLUDING CHILDREN, SLAUGHTER THEM, 00:06:35.161 --> 00:06:37.863 IS A VERY DISTURBING NOTION TO PEOPLE, 00:06:37.863 --> 00:06:40.366 PARTICULARLY IF THEY'RE LOOKING UPON PEOPLE WITH WHOM THEY IDENTIFY. 00:06:40.366 --> 00:06:42.568 SO THEY SEEK EXPLANATIONS WHICH ARE MORE-- 00:06:42.568 --> 00:06:45.571 I WOULDN'T SAY MORE COMFORTING, BUT LESS THREATENING TO THEM... 00:06:45.571 --> 00:06:48.574 Goldhagen, voice-over: AS EARLY AS I CAN REMEMBER THINKING SERIOUS THOUGHTS, 00:06:48.574 --> 00:06:52.445 MY FATHER AND I HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THESE THINGS. 00:06:52.445 --> 00:06:56.949 AS A SCHOLAR, HE JOURNEYED INTO THE DARKEST CHAPTERS OF THE HUMAN EXPERIENCE, 00:06:56.949 --> 00:07:01.387 SEEKING TO UNDERSTAND NOT ONLY WHAT HAPPENED, BUT WHY. 00:07:01.387 --> 00:07:05.391 NOW I AM CONTINUING THE JOURNEY HE BEGAN, 00:07:05.391 --> 00:07:18.604 A JOURNEY THAT IN A SENSE, I HAVE BEEN ON MY ENTIRE LIFE. 00:07:18.604 --> 00:07:24.110 PEOPLE NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT NOTHING IS INEVITABLE ABOUT GENOCIDE. 00:07:24.110 --> 00:07:32.618 IT BOILS DOWN TO A SERIES OF CHOICES. 00:07:32.618 --> 00:07:35.855 LEADERS CHOOSE TO INITIATE THE KILLING, 00:07:35.855 --> 00:07:42.361 ORDINARY PEOPLE MAKE A CONSCIOUS CHOICE TO PARTICIPATE... 00:07:42.361 --> 00:07:45.364 AND THOSE WITH THE POWER TO PREVENT OR STOP IT 00:07:45.364 --> 00:07:50.636 CHOOSE TO DO NOTHING. 00:07:50.636 --> 00:07:53.139 I STUDY GENOCIDES BECAUSE I BELIEVE 00:07:53.139 --> 00:07:56.142 THE MORE WE KNOW ABOUT HOW AND WHY GENOCIDES HAPPEN, 00:07:56.142 --> 00:07:58.744 THE MORE WE CAN GET POLITICAL LEADERS 00:07:58.744 --> 00:08:04.116 AND ORDINARY PEOPLE TO MAKE DIFFERENT CHOICES. 00:08:04.116 --> 00:08:07.186 IMAGINE IF ONE DAY, PEOPLE IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD 00:08:07.186 --> 00:08:15.060 WERE DRAGGED OUT OF THEIR HOMES AND KILLED IN THE STREET. 00:08:15.060 --> 00:08:18.063 YOU WOULD WANT THE KILLERS STOPPED AND PUNISHED, 00:08:18.063 --> 00:08:22.902 AND YOU WOULD WANT TO KNOW THAT IT WOULD NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN. 00:08:22.902 --> 00:08:25.404 WHY SHOULD IT BE ANY DIFFERENT 00:08:25.404 --> 00:08:29.542 WHEN THE VICTIMS ARE SOMEWHERE ELSE? 00:08:29.542 --> 00:08:32.044 LIKE THE PEOPLE IN YOUR COMMUNITY, 00:08:32.044 --> 00:08:34.747 EACH GENOCIDE VICTIM IS AN INDIVIDUAL. 00:08:34.747 --> 00:08:43.022 A FATHER, A MOTHER, A DAUGHTER, A SON. 00:08:43.022 --> 00:08:47.426 AS A SCHOLAR, I SPEND MOST OF MY TIME IN ARCHIVES AND LIBRARIES. 00:08:47.426 --> 00:08:51.931 BUT OVER THE PAST YEAR, I TRAVELED TO THESE "SOMEWHERE ELSES," 00:08:51.931 --> 00:08:56.068 THE SITES OF SOME OF THE WORST MASS MURDERS OF OUR TIME. 00:08:56.068 --> 00:09:02.007 [BIRDS CHIRPING] 00:09:02.007 --> 00:09:07.580 [DOOR CLANGS] 00:09:07.580 --> 00:09:13.586 IT'S BEEN DECADES STUDYING NAZIS AND THE HOLOCAUST, GENOCIDE, 00:09:13.586 --> 00:09:23.462 BUT I'VE NEVER BEEN IN A GAS CHAMBER BEFORE. 00:09:23.462 --> 00:09:25.464 I STARTED MY JOURNEY MINDFUL 00:09:25.464 --> 00:09:28.467 THAT THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A TIME DURING THE PAST CENTURY 00:09:28.467 --> 00:09:31.971 WHEN OUR PLANET WAS FREE OF MASS MURDER, 00:09:31.971 --> 00:09:33.973 INCLUDING NOW. 00:09:33.973 --> 00:09:35.474 Woman: FOR 5 LONG YEARS, 00:09:35.474 --> 00:09:38.978 DARFUR HAS BEEN A SCENE OF DEVASTATION AND DESTRUCTION. 00:09:38.978 --> 00:09:41.480 300,000 PEOPLE HAVE DIED 00:09:41.480 --> 00:09:43.983 AND 2.5 MILLION HAVE FLED THEIR HOMES 00:09:43.983 --> 00:09:46.986 AS THE SUDANESE GOVERNMENT HAS TRIED TO CRUSH A REBELLION 00:09:46.986 --> 00:09:49.488 AGAINST ITS RULE. 00:09:49.488 --> 00:09:53.993 Goldhagen: THE PLIGHT OF DARFUR HAS MOVED PEOPLE OF CONSCIENCE AROUND THE WORLD 00:09:53.993 --> 00:09:59.265 AND HAS ONLY INTENSIFIED MY DESIRE TO KNOW MORE... 00:09:59.265 --> 00:10:02.768 TO SEE THE PLACES WHERE THE HORRORS HAVE HAPPENED, 00:10:02.768 --> 00:10:05.204 MEET THE PEOPLE WHO WERE THERE, 00:10:05.204 --> 00:10:08.707 AND ASK THE KINDS OF QUESTIONS YOU HAVE TO ASK, 00:10:08.707 --> 00:10:15.714 EVEN THOUGH SOMETIMES YOU MAY DREAD HEARING THE ANSWER. 00:10:15.714 --> 00:10:18.717 Goldhagen: WHEN THE GENOCIDE BEGAN, WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU? 00:10:18.717 --> 00:10:20.719 [TRANSLATOR SPEAKING NATIVE LANGUAGE] 00:10:20.719 --> 00:10:31.897 AND HER FAMILY. 00:10:31.897 --> 00:10:34.400 SHE SAID HER DAD WAS KILLED LIKE-- 00:10:34.400 --> 00:10:40.539 HE WAS, YOU KNOW, CHOPPED. HE WAS CUT WITH A MACHETE. 00:10:40.539 --> 00:10:43.042 AND THE MOM WAS CHOPPED. THAT WHAT SHE'S SAYING 00:10:43.042 --> 00:10:48.580 IS SHE WAS CHOPPED WITH A MACHETE. 00:10:48.580 --> 00:10:52.685 AND THE BROTHER WAS, ALSO. 00:10:52.685 --> 00:10:54.353 WHO KILLED HER FAMILY? 00:10:54.353 --> 00:10:56.188 WERE THESE JUST LOCAL PEOPLE WHO LIVE THROUGH HERE? 00:10:56.188 --> 00:11:01.860 [TRANSLATOR SPEAKS NATIVE LANGUAGE] 00:11:01.860 --> 00:11:03.562 SHE SAYS THEY WERE NEIGHBORS. 00:11:03.562 --> 00:11:18.510 MOST OF THAT, THEY WERE EVEN FRIENDS TO THE FAMILY. 00:11:18.510 --> 00:11:22.548 [COW BELLOWS] 00:11:22.548 --> 00:11:25.050 Goldhagen: IN GENOCIDE AFTER GENOCIDE, 00:11:25.050 --> 00:11:28.053 THESE ARE THE QUESTIONS THAT CONTINUE TO BE ASKED: 00:11:28.053 --> 00:11:31.390 HOW DO NEIGHBORS END UP TURNING AGAINST NEIGHBORS? 00:11:31.390 --> 00:11:35.561 WHY DO THE KILLERS KILL? 00:11:35.561 --> 00:11:37.563 HERE IN RWANDA, 00:11:37.563 --> 00:11:41.066 MORE THAN 800,000 MEN, WOMEN, AND CHILDREN 00:11:41.066 --> 00:11:46.071 WERE KILLED OVER THE COURSE OF 3 MONTHS. 00:11:46.071 --> 00:11:48.240 MOST WERE ETHNIC TUTSI, 00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:51.243 MURDERED BY MEMBERS OF THE HUTU MAJORITY, 00:11:51.243 --> 00:11:54.246 FACE TO FACE WITH MACHETES, 00:11:54.246 --> 00:11:59.752 CLUBS, AND GUNS. 00:11:59.752 --> 00:12:29.014 HITLER'S GAS CHAMBERS DID NOT KILL WITH SUCH DEADLY EFFICIENCY. 00:12:29.014 --> 00:12:31.517 Goldhagen: WHEN PEOPLE KILLED THE VICTIMS, 00:12:31.517 --> 00:12:35.020 DID THEY TRY TO KILL THEM AS PAINLESSLY AS POSSIBLE 00:12:35.020 --> 00:12:37.523 OR DID THEY TRY TO MAKE THEM SUFFER? 00:12:37.523 --> 00:13:04.450 [TRANSLATOR SPEAKING NATIVE LANGUAGE] 00:13:04.450 --> 00:13:08.020 Goldhagen: I FIND IT HARD TO UNDERSTAND, AND I WANT TO UNDERSTAND, 00:13:08.020 --> 00:13:11.023 HOW PEOPLE COULD APPROACH OTHER PEOPLE, 00:13:11.023 --> 00:13:15.027 WHO ARE BEGGING FOR THEIR LIVES AND SCREAMING IN PAIN, 00:13:15.027 --> 00:13:26.738 AND CHOP THEM. 00:13:26.738 --> 00:13:28.240 IT'S A VERY TOUGH QUESTION TO ANSWER 00:13:28.240 --> 00:14:42.014 BECAUSE THEY HAVE THE SAME FLESH, LIKE YOURS. 00:14:42.014 --> 00:14:46.018 ELIE'S WORD--CRUELTY-- COULD NOT BE MORE ACCURATE. 00:14:46.018 --> 00:14:49.521 CRUELTY IS AT THE HEART OF GENOCIDE. 00:14:49.521 --> 00:14:53.025 THE KILLERS DON'T JUST ERADICATE THE TARGETED PEOPLE, 00:14:53.025 --> 00:14:56.028 BUT BRUTALIZE THEM IN WAYS THAT FAR EXCEED 00:14:56.028 --> 00:15:00.966 WHAT IS NEEDED TO KILL THEM. 00:15:00.966 --> 00:15:07.039 I SEE THE EVIDENCE OF SUCH CRUELTY EVERYWHERE I GO. 00:15:07.039 --> 00:15:11.043 I CAME TO GUATEMALA, WHERE A MASSIVE EFFORT HAS BEEN UNDERWAY 00:15:11.043 --> 00:15:15.547 TO LITERALLY UNCOVER THE TRUTH ABOUT THE GOVERNMENT'S MASS SLAUGHTER 00:15:15.547 --> 00:15:24.356 OF 200,000 INDIGENOUS MAYA DURING THE 1980s. 00:15:24.356 --> 00:15:28.860 OUTSIDE GUATEMALA, FEW PEOPLE EVEN KNOW ABOUT THE GENOCIDE. 00:15:28.860 --> 00:15:39.705 Suasnavar: BUENOS DIAS. 00:15:39.705 --> 00:16:27.152 Goldhagen: DO WE KNOW--IS THIS A FAMILY OR TWO FAMILIES? ARE THERE ADULTS? 00:16:27.152 --> 00:16:28.654 Goldhagen: IN THESE HILLS, 00:16:28.654 --> 00:16:32.157 THE GUATEMALAN MILITARY CONDUCTED A SCORCHED-EARTH CAMPAIGN 00:16:32.157 --> 00:16:36.561 AGAINST MAYA AND LEFTIST INSURGENTS. 00:16:36.561 --> 00:16:39.564 THE MAYAN PEOPLE, THEY SAID, WERE INHERENTLY SUBVERSIVE 00:16:39.564 --> 00:16:47.606 AND AN IMPEDIMENT TO PROGRESS. 00:16:47.606 --> 00:16:49.941 THE GOVERNMENT STRATEGY WAS SUMMED UP 00:16:49.941 --> 00:16:52.944 IN A GRIM APHORISM OF THE TIME-- 00:16:52.944 --> 00:17:01.620 "TO KILL THE FISH, YOU HAVE TO DRAIN THE POND." 00:17:01.620 --> 00:17:05.123 HERE, IN THE MOUNTAIN HAMLET OF PLAN DE SANCHEZ, 00:17:05.123 --> 00:17:27.379 THEY DRAINED THE POND ON JULY 18, 1982. 00:17:27.379 --> 00:17:31.249 Woman: THE MILITARY WOULD SEPARATE THE WOMEN AND THE MEN. 00:17:31.249 --> 00:17:35.253 SOMETIMES THEY WOULD TAKE THE INFANTS OUT OF THE WOMEN'S ARMS 00:17:35.253 --> 00:17:37.723 AND SIMPLY SMASH THEM ON THE GROUND, 00:17:37.723 --> 00:17:39.958 KILL THEM RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF EVERYBODY. 00:17:39.958 --> 00:17:41.960 THEY CUT TONGUES OUT. 00:17:41.960 --> 00:17:43.962 THEY OPENED PREGNANT WOMEN'S BELLIES 00:17:43.962 --> 00:17:46.465 AND DASHED FETUSES AGAINST TREES. 00:17:46.465 --> 00:17:49.468 THEY BURNED PEOPLE ALIVE. 00:17:49.468 --> 00:17:53.004 WE KNOW THIS BECAUSE THERE WERE PEOPLE 00:17:53.004 --> 00:17:57.509 WHO, EVEN IN THE MIDST OF THIS MAYHEM AND MASS KILLING, 00:17:57.509 --> 00:18:00.011 SOMEHOW MANAGED TO HIDE-- BEHIND A DOOR, 00:18:00.011 --> 00:18:04.416 UNDERNEATH A PILE OF CORN HUSKS-- 00:18:04.416 --> 00:19:23.361 AND WATCH. 00:19:23.361 --> 00:19:26.364 Goldhagen: ONLY ONCE I GOT TO GUATEMALA DID I REALIZE 00:19:26.364 --> 00:19:29.367 HOW REMOTE THESE MOUNTAIN VILLAGES REALLY ARE. 00:19:29.367 --> 00:19:32.504 GOVERNMENT LEADERS CALL THESE SUBSISTENCE FARMERS 00:19:32.504 --> 00:19:35.407 A THREAT TO THE WELL-BEING OF THE COUNTRY, 00:19:35.407 --> 00:19:39.411 BUT THEY DID NOT POSE A THREAT TO ANYONE. 00:19:39.411 --> 00:20:53.285 THE GUATEMALAN PERPETRATORS OBLITERATED ONE SUCH COMMUNITY AFTER ANOTHER. 00:20:53.285 --> 00:20:58.256 Goldhagen: EVERYWHERE I GO, THE FACES OF CHILDREN HAUNT ME THE MOST. 00:20:58.256 --> 00:21:00.692 I HAVE CHILDREN, TOO, 00:21:00.692 --> 00:21:03.862 AND IT'S HARD NOT TO THINK ABOUT THEM AS I HEAR STORIES 00:21:03.862 --> 00:21:07.432 OVER AND OVER ABOUT THE CRUELTY CHILDREN SUFFERED. 00:21:07.432 --> 00:21:11.436 ...WHEN THEY KILLED ABOUT 177 PEOPLE, 00:21:11.436 --> 00:21:13.939 MOST OF THEM CHILDREN AND THE OTHERS WOMEN. 00:21:13.939 --> 00:21:17.442 SO THERE WASN'T A SINGLE ADULT MALE, SO WHICH CAN-- 00:21:17.442 --> 00:21:19.945 YOU KNOW, YOU CAN SAY LETS YOU UNDERSTAND 00:21:19.945 --> 00:21:21.947 THAT THESE ARE NOT COMBAT DEATHS. 00:21:21.947 --> 00:21:24.950 OH, NO. YEAH, YOU KNOW, IT'S VERY COMMON IN MASS MURDERS 00:21:24.950 --> 00:21:24.950 FOR THE PERPETRATORS TO DO THIS TO CHILDREN... 00:21:24.950 --> 00:21:27.452 YEAH. 00:21:27.452 --> 00:21:29.454 AFTER RWANDA AND THE HOLOCAUST. 00:21:29.454 --> 00:21:32.958 Goldhagen, voice-over: FREDY PECCERELLI, A GUATEMALAN NATIVE RAISED IN AMERICA, 00:21:32.958 --> 00:21:35.961 IS IN CHARGE OF COLLECTING AND CATALOGUING THE BONES. 00:21:35.961 --> 00:21:38.463 THEY PORTRAY A MESSAGE. WHEN THEY DO THIS, 00:21:38.463 --> 00:21:41.466 THEY ARE ALSO KILLING THE SEED OF EVIL, ACCORDING TO THEM, 00:21:41.466 --> 00:21:43.401 WHETHER IT BE IN NAZI GERMANY 00:21:43.401 --> 00:21:45.904 OR WHETHER IT BE IN GUATEMALA IN THE 1980s. 00:21:45.904 --> 00:21:49.908 BUT THIS IS THE BONE LAB OF THE FORENSIC ANTHROPOLOGY LABORATORY. 00:21:49.908 --> 00:21:52.811 FREDY IS AMASSING A RECORD OF THE ATROCITIES 00:21:52.811 --> 00:21:54.879 COMMITTED BY THE GUATEMALAN PERPETRATORS... 00:21:54.879 --> 00:21:56.514 BUT THE FIRST STAGE AFTER THE... 00:21:56.514 --> 00:22:00.018 AND PROVIDING THE VICTIMS' FAMILIES WITH THE REMAINS TO BURY PROPERLY. 00:22:00.018 --> 00:22:02.954 Peccerelli: THE BONES HOLD THE STORY 00:22:02.954 --> 00:22:05.924 OF WHAT HAPPENED TO A PERSON DURING THEIR LIFE 00:22:05.924 --> 00:22:08.927 AND MIGHT EVEN TELL US WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM 00:22:08.927 --> 00:22:10.929 DURING THE EVENT OF THEIR DEATH 00:22:10.929 --> 00:22:12.731 AND EVEN WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM AFTER DEATH. 00:22:12.731 --> 00:22:16.735 SO HERE, FOR EXAMPLE, WE CAN SEE...HOW... 00:22:16.735 --> 00:22:20.739 AND IF YOU WANT, I'LL ALLOW YOU TO FEEL THE DIFFERENCE SO YOU CAN SEE. 00:22:20.739 --> 00:22:23.241 THIS IS A VERY SHARP CUT, AND IF YOU RUN YOUR HAND THROUGH IT, 00:22:23.241 --> 00:22:23.241 IT'S VERY, VERY SMOOTH. 00:22:23.241 --> 00:22:25.744 MM-HMM. 00:22:25.744 --> 00:22:28.913 YOU SEE, THAT WAS CAUSED BY A MACHETE STRIKING 00:22:28.913 --> 00:22:32.884 THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE HEAD AND ALSO CUTTING THE ATLAS. 00:22:32.884 --> 00:22:35.420 AND, YOU SEE, WHEN YOU MATCH IT UP ANATOMICALLY, 00:22:35.420 --> 00:22:35.420 YOU CAN SEE THAT THIS TRAUMA HERE... 00:22:35.420 --> 00:22:38.123 RIGHT. 00:22:38.123 --> 00:22:40.125 IS RELATED TO THIS STRIKE HERE, 00:22:40.125 --> 00:22:42.861 AND BASICALLY WHAT THEY TRIED TO DO HERE IS DECAPITATE THE PERSON. 00:22:42.861 --> 00:22:45.363 NOW, WHAT WE'VE SEEN USUALLY IS THAT 00:22:45.363 --> 00:22:48.366 THESE PEOPLE WERE NOT VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE OF ANATOMY, 00:22:48.366 --> 00:22:51.036 SO THE DECAPITATIONS, AS YOU'D EXPECT, 00:22:51.036 --> 00:22:54.372 WERE NOT ALWAYS SUCCESSFUL, SO YOU HAVE REPEATED BLOWS TO THE HEAD. 00:22:54.372 --> 00:22:56.941 SOMEBODY'S TRYING TO SEPARATE THE HEAD FROM THE BODY. 00:22:56.941 --> 00:23:00.879 THEY'RE VERY TYPICAL OF OVERKILL AND SOMETIMES OF EVEN CRIMES OF PASSION. 00:23:00.879 --> 00:23:02.881 Goldhagen: "OVERKILL"-- THERE'S A WORD 00:23:02.881 --> 00:23:05.950 I DON'T THINK I'LL EVER HEAR THE SAME WAY AGAIN. 00:23:05.950 --> 00:23:08.453 IF THE KILLERS WERE SIMPLY DOING THEIR DUTY 00:23:08.453 --> 00:23:10.955 TO WIPE OUT AN INSURGENCY, AS THEY CLAIM, 00:23:10.955 --> 00:23:14.459 THEY WOULD EXECUTE THEIR VICTIMS QUICKLY AND BE DONE WITH IT. 00:23:14.459 --> 00:23:19.464 YOU HAVE TO WONDER WHY WE SEE SO MUCH EVIDENCE OF SUCH MURDEROUS PASSION, 00:23:19.464 --> 00:23:21.966 ESPECIALLY AGAINST WOMEN AND CHILDREN. 00:23:21.966 --> 00:23:24.469 THIS IS A CHILD HERE, A VERY YOUNG CHILD. 00:23:24.469 --> 00:23:26.471 I WOULDN'T EVEN DARE TO TELL YOU THE AGE 00:23:26.471 --> 00:23:28.973 UNLESS WITH THE ANTHROPOLOGIST WORKING ON THE CASE, 00:23:28.973 --> 00:23:31.976 AND YOU CAN COMPARE-- THIS IS THE FIRST RIB. 00:23:31.976 --> 00:23:34.979 WOW. 00:23:34.979 --> 00:23:37.982 SO...AND IF YOU COMPARE THIS 00:23:37.982 --> 00:23:39.984 TO THAT ONE, YOU CAN SEE THE DIFFERENCE. 00:23:39.984 --> 00:23:42.487 I MEAN, THE FIRST RIB IS ABOUT THAT BIG, SO THIS IS A VERY, VERY SMALL-- 00:23:42.487 --> 00:23:43.988 MAY I SEE THIS? 00:23:43.988 --> 00:23:46.491 JUST HOLDING THE TINY LITTLE BONE. 00:23:46.491 --> 00:23:50.128 YOU KNOW... 00:23:50.128 --> 00:23:52.130 YEAH. SEE, I DON'T KNOW. 00:23:52.130 --> 00:23:54.632 I DON'T THINK THERE'S A--A WAY OF... 00:23:54.632 --> 00:23:56.634 HUMANLY UNDERSTANDING THIS 00:23:56.634 --> 00:24:00.071 BECAUSE IT GOES BEYOND WHAT I BELIEVE HUMANS CAN DO, 00:24:00.071 --> 00:24:02.574 BUT OBVIOUSLY--I MEAN, THE MORE I SAY THAT, THE MORE I TEND TO-- 00:24:02.574 --> 00:24:04.576 IT'S HARD FOR ME TO BELIEVE 00:24:04.576 --> 00:24:06.578 THAT YOU'RE SAYING THIS, GIVEN WHAT YOU-- 00:24:06.578 --> 00:24:10.081 BECAUSE I WANT TO BELIEVE THAT WE'RE NOT CAPABLE OF THESE THINGS, 00:24:10.081 --> 00:24:12.584 EVEN THOUGH-- I WANT TO BELIEVE THAT THIS IS WRONG. 00:24:12.584 --> 00:24:14.586 SO DOING THIS HAS TO BE WRONG. 00:24:14.586 --> 00:24:17.088 IF I ACCEPTED THIS AS RIGHT AND IF I EXCUSE IT, 00:24:17.088 --> 00:24:23.027 THEN I CAN'T DO THIS ANYMORE. 00:24:23.027 --> 00:24:26.898 FREDY IS NOT ALONE. 00:24:26.898 --> 00:24:29.534 MOST OF US FIND IT HARD TO COME TO TERMS 00:24:29.534 --> 00:24:33.538 WITH THE CAPACITY OF HUMAN BEINGS TO DO SUCH HORRIBLE THINGS TO OTHERS. 00:24:33.538 --> 00:24:36.040 BUT WE HAVE TO MAKE SENSE OF IT. 00:24:36.040 --> 00:24:42.347 AS IRRATIONAL AS THEY SEEM, THESE ARE NOT THE ACTS OF CRAZED INDIVIDUALS. 00:24:42.347 --> 00:24:45.350 THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING, 00:24:45.350 --> 00:24:49.354 BELIEVE IT'S RIGHT, AND MAKE A CONSCIOUS CHOICE TO ACT. 00:24:49.354 --> 00:24:51.356 UH, HELLO. 00:24:51.356 --> 00:24:51.356 JA. 00:24:51.356 --> 00:24:53.458 ICH BIN DANIEL GOLDHAGEN. 00:24:53.458 --> 00:25:49.047 [SPEAKING GERMAN] 00:25:49.047 --> 00:25:54.052 Goldhagen: LIKE MOST GERMANS, OTTO-ERNST DUSCHELEIT GREW UP WITH THE WORLD VIEW 00:25:54.052 --> 00:25:57.889 IN WHICH HE SAW HIMSELF AS A MEMBER OF THE MASTER RACE, 00:25:57.889 --> 00:26:02.327 WHILE MANY OTHERS FELL INTO THE CATEGORY OF SUB-HUMANS OR UNTERMENSCHEN. 00:26:02.327 --> 00:26:09.534 [MEN SINGING IN GERMAN] 00:26:09.534 --> 00:26:11.536 Goldhagen: WHEN YOU WERE IN SCHOOL... 00:26:11.536 --> 00:26:11.536 YES? 00:26:11.536 --> 00:26:13.438 WHEN YOU WERE IN THE HITLER YOUTH, 00:26:13.438 --> 00:26:15.940 WHAT DID YOU LEARN, FOR EXAMPLE, ABOUT UNTERMENSCHEN? 00:26:15.940 --> 00:26:15.940 WHAT DID THAT WORD MEAN TO YOU? 00:26:15.940 --> 00:27:36.220 JA, UNTERMENSCHEN. 00:27:36.220 --> 00:27:39.724 Goldhagen: IT'S STRIKING THAT IT IS A FORMER SS MAN, 00:27:39.724 --> 00:27:42.727 INVOKING ANNE FRANK, WHO MAKES THIS POINT. 00:27:42.727 --> 00:27:45.229 IT IS AN IMPORTANT ONE. 00:27:45.229 --> 00:27:47.732 IT IS THAT FAILURE TO SEE THE HUMANITY IN OTHERS 00:27:47.732 --> 00:27:53.004 WHICH MAKES IT POSSIBLE FOR THE KILLERS TO COMMIT THEIR CRIMES. 00:27:53.004 --> 00:27:55.073 I WOULD ADD THAT IT'S THE BELIEF 00:27:55.073 --> 00:27:57.575 THAT THOSE OTHERS ARE DANGEROUS ENEMIES 00:27:57.575 --> 00:28:10.021 WHICH INSPIRES THE PERPETRATORS TO KILL WITH SUCH ZEAL. 00:28:10.021 --> 00:28:13.024 YEARS AGO, I ENCOUNTERED AN EPISODE OF THE HOLOCAUST 00:28:13.024 --> 00:28:17.028 WHICH SPOKE VOLUMES ABOUT THE WILLFULNESS AND DEDICATION OF THE KILLERS, 00:28:17.028 --> 00:28:22.033 AND I GOT TO KNOW ONE OF THE SURVIVORS, LILLI SILBIGER. 00:28:22.033 --> 00:28:26.537 I HAVE A MAP HERE WITH ME WHICH ACTUALLY OUTLINES THE ROUTE 00:28:26.537 --> 00:28:30.041 FROM HELMBRECHT TO VOLARY... 00:28:30.041 --> 00:28:33.044 Goldhagen, voice-over: IN THE LAST MONTHS OF WORLD WAR II, 00:28:33.044 --> 00:28:37.548 AS THE ALLIED FORCES NEARED THE CONCENTRATION CAMPS HOUSING JEWS AND OTHERS, 00:28:37.548 --> 00:28:40.518 GERMANS EMPTIED THEIR CAMPS AND DROVE THEIR PRISONERS 00:28:40.518 --> 00:28:44.522 ON FORCED MARCHES THROUGH THE NEARBY TOWNS AND COUNTRYSIDE. 00:28:44.522 --> 00:28:46.023 [SILBIGER SPEAKING GERMAN] 00:28:46.023 --> 00:28:50.027 Goldhagen: THE DEATH MARCHES LEFT A TRAIL OF CORPSES IN THEIR WAKE, 00:28:50.027 --> 00:28:53.531 AND THE MARCHING PRISONERS WERE DESCRIBED BY MORE THAN ONE WITNESS 00:28:53.531 --> 00:28:56.100 AS "THE WALKING DEAD." 00:28:56.100 --> 00:28:59.103 THESE ARE ACTUAL PHOTOS OF THE YOUNG WOMEN 00:28:59.103 --> 00:29:13.751 WHO WERE WITH LILLI ON THE MARCH. 00:29:13.751 --> 00:29:17.755 ON THE SUMMER DAY LILY REVISITED THE ROUTE OF A DEATH MARCH WITH ME, 00:29:17.755 --> 00:29:20.758 THE COUNTRYSIDE WAS BEAUTIFUL. 00:29:20.758 --> 00:29:28.766 BUT IN THE SPRING OF 1945, IT WAS COLD AND BLEAK. 00:29:28.766 --> 00:29:33.771 LILY'S GUARDS ACTUALLY HAD RECEIVED EXPLICIT ORDERS NOT TO KILL ANY MORE JEWS, 00:29:33.771 --> 00:29:37.275 BUT THEY WILLFULLY DEFIED THEIR SUPERIORS. 00:29:37.275 --> 00:29:40.778 THEY DROVE HER AND THE OTHERS, STARVING, WEARING NOTHING MORE THAN RAGS, 00:29:40.778 --> 00:29:44.148 DAY AFTER DAY THROUGH THE FRIGID COUNTRYSIDE. 00:29:44.148 --> 00:29:47.852 SOMETIMES WE WOULDN'T EVEN GET FOOD FOR 24 HOURS, FOR 48 HOURS. 00:29:47.852 --> 00:29:50.855 PEOPLE RESORTED TO ANYTHING THAT WAS FOUND 00:29:50.855 --> 00:29:54.358 OR ANYTHING ROTTEN THAT WAS--YOU KNOW, YOU JUST GRABBED AT ANYTHING. 00:29:54.358 --> 00:29:54.358 AND YOU WERE 16 AT THE TIME? 00:29:54.358 --> 00:29:57.361 YEAH. 00:29:57.361 --> 00:30:01.966 AND IN ONE PLACE, SOMEONE BROKE INTO A PANTRY 00:30:01.966 --> 00:30:05.970 OR SOMEPLACE WHERE WE ARRIVED AND STOLE SOME LOAFS OF BREAD. 00:30:05.970 --> 00:30:09.974 AND FOR THAT, THEY SELECTED 50 GIRLS AND KILLED THEM 00:30:09.974 --> 00:30:12.477 OVER THE MASS GRAVE THERE. 00:30:12.477 --> 00:30:16.981 WE HAD TO COME BACK AND COVER THEM, 00:30:16.981 --> 00:30:20.985 AND THERE WERE MANY OF THEM STILL ALIVE WHEN WE HAD TO DO THAT. 00:30:20.985 --> 00:30:23.988 SO THEY--YOU HAD TO HELP BURY THEM ALIVE? 00:30:23.988 --> 00:30:26.491 WE HAD TO DO-- WE HAD TO PUT-- 00:30:26.491 --> 00:30:29.494 YES, THE EARTH, COVER THEM WITH EARTH. 00:30:29.494 --> 00:30:34.499 SO THIS WAS THE BIGGEST HORRIBLE... 00:30:34.499 --> 00:30:38.503 [VOICE CRACKS] YEAH.... 00:30:38.503 --> 00:30:41.506 PERIOD. 00:30:41.506 --> 00:30:47.411 [DISTANT ROLLING THUNDER] 00:30:47.411 --> 00:30:52.416 ONE OF THE ASTONISHING THINGS IS THAT THEY WERE MARCHING THE JEWISH PRISONERS 00:30:52.416 --> 00:30:55.386 LITERALLY THE LAST DAY OF THE WAR. 00:30:55.386 --> 00:30:58.389 INSTEAD OF RUNNING AWAY TO AVOID CAPTURE, THEY STAYED WITH THE PRISONERS, 00:30:58.389 --> 00:30:58.389 THEY CONTINUED TO DENY THEM FOOD... 00:30:58.389 --> 00:31:00.825 ABSOLUTELY. 00:31:00.825 --> 00:31:03.761 THEY CONTINUED TO BEAT THEM, THEY CONTINUED TO KILL THEM, 00:31:03.761 --> 00:31:10.368 THEY CONTINUED TO DO IT TO THE VERY END. 00:31:10.368 --> 00:31:12.503 WE KNEW THE RUSSIANS WERE CLOSING IN THERE, 00:31:12.503 --> 00:31:14.505 AND THEN WE HEARD ARTILLERY, 00:31:14.505 --> 00:31:17.341 SOME PLANES FLYING OVERHEAD, 00:31:17.341 --> 00:31:19.343 HEARD SOME BOMBINGS IN THE DISTANCE, 00:31:19.343 --> 00:31:23.047 SO WE KNEW THEY WERE VERY CLOSE. 00:31:23.047 --> 00:31:28.553 [EXPLOSIONS, GUNFIRE] 00:31:28.553 --> 00:31:33.057 THEY MANAGED FOR SUCH A LONG TIME TO KEEP AHEAD OF THE ALLIES, 00:31:33.057 --> 00:31:36.227 GOING NOWHERE, YOU KNOW, TO--A PLACE--TO NOWHERE. 00:31:36.227 --> 00:31:39.230 JUST TO DRAG US, JUST TO... 00:31:39.230 --> 00:31:42.233 JUST GO IN CIRCLES, ACTUALLY. THAT'S WHAT WAS HAPPENING. 00:31:42.233 --> 00:31:45.736 THEY DIDN'T KNOW THEMSELVES WHAT THEY WERE DOING. 00:31:45.736 --> 00:31:49.740 THEY COULD HAVE EASILY LEFT US WHEREVER WE WERE 00:31:49.740 --> 00:31:52.109 AND JUST DISAPPEAR, AND THEY DIDN'T. 00:31:52.109 --> 00:31:56.113 THEY BELIEVED THE JEWS WERE EVIL INCARNATE, AN ENEMY OF HUMANKIND, 00:31:56.113 --> 00:32:00.551 A THREAT TO THE WELL-BEING AND FUTURE EXISTENCE OF GERMANY. 00:32:00.551 --> 00:32:02.553 AND IF YOU BELIEVE THAT, 00:32:02.553 --> 00:32:05.623 JUST AS IF YOU BELIEVE SOMEONE'S ABOUT TO ATTACK YOUR CHILD, 00:32:05.623 --> 00:32:09.126 YOU WILL DO ANYTHING YOU CAN. 00:32:09.126 --> 00:32:11.262 YEAH. 00:32:11.262 --> 00:32:13.264 [CAR HORN HONKS] 00:32:13.264 --> 00:32:18.269 EACH OF US TRIES TO MAKE SENSE OF THE HORRORS IN HIS OR HER OWN WAY. 00:32:18.269 --> 00:32:22.807 OVER THE YEARS, I HAVE TALKED WITH MANY WHO GRAPPLE OVER THESE ISSUES, 00:32:22.807 --> 00:32:26.310 BUT NEVER ONE MORE THOUGHTFUL THAN A MAN I MET IN RWANDA-- 00:32:26.310 --> 00:32:30.314 THARCISSE KARUGARAMA, THE COUNTRY'S MINISTER OF JUSTICE. 00:32:30.314 --> 00:32:32.817 Goldhagen: HERE WE'RE SPEAKING NOW AS TWO PEOPLE TRYING 00:32:32.817 --> 00:32:35.319 TO UNDERSTAND A VERY DIFFICULT SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES: 00:32:35.319 --> 00:32:37.922 THE WAYS IN WHICH VICTIMS WERE NOT JUST KILLED 00:32:37.922 --> 00:32:41.425 IN, IF WE CAN CALL IT, THE LEAST PAINFUL WAY, 00:32:41.425 --> 00:32:44.929 BUT WERE HACKED TO DEATH, WERE TORTURED; 00:32:44.929 --> 00:32:48.799 THE ZEAL AND PASSION WITH WHICH THE PERPETRATORS SOUGHT OUT THE VICTIMS. 00:32:48.799 --> 00:32:51.535 IT'S NOT EASY TO FIND PEOPLE HIDING IN THE COUNTRYSIDE. 00:32:51.535 --> 00:32:54.538 MASS HYSTERIA... 00:32:54.538 --> 00:33:00.978 IS VERY DIFFICULT TO EXPLAIN. 00:33:00.978 --> 00:33:05.049 PEOPLE HIT A PERIOD WHEN THEY'RE INVOLVED IN MASS HYSTERIA, 00:33:05.049 --> 00:33:08.519 WHEN THEY CAN NO LONGER BE ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS. 00:33:08.519 --> 00:33:11.188 BUT YOU CERTAINLY DON'T WANT TO TAKE THAT AS A LEGAL POSITION, DO YOU? 00:33:11.188 --> 00:33:14.191 NO, DEFINITELY NOT. DEFINITELY NOT. 00:33:14.191 --> 00:33:17.695 I'M JUST TRYING TO EXPLAIN BECAUSE I'VE BEEN AROUND 00:33:17.695 --> 00:33:20.698 IN THIS JUDICIAL FOR SOME TIME NOW, 00:33:20.698 --> 00:33:26.037 AND I'VE MADE ALL SORTS OF CONTRADICTIONS. 00:33:26.037 --> 00:33:29.040 SO THE ONE YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT IS A MAJOR CONTRADICTION. 00:33:29.040 --> 00:33:36.047 THE BRUTALITY WITH WHICH THEY DID THE KILLING IS SHOCKING. 00:33:36.047 --> 00:33:40.051 WHAT...ONCE PEOPLE HAD STEPPED BEYOND 00:33:40.051 --> 00:33:44.055 THE FIRST STEP OF ACTUALLY KILLING-- 00:33:44.055 --> 00:33:47.058 THROWING A CHILD DOWN AND HACKING THEM TO DEATH, 00:33:47.058 --> 00:33:50.061 OPENING THE WOMB OF PREGNANT-- 00:33:50.061 --> 00:33:52.563 THERE'S NOTHING THAT WAS IF--THAT HE COULDN'T DO 00:33:52.563 --> 00:33:56.567 BECAUSE THEY WERE BEING TOLD BY THE PETITIONS 00:33:56.567 --> 00:33:59.070 WHO WERE GIVING THEM THE ALCOHOL 00:33:59.070 --> 00:34:02.506 THAT "IF YOU DON'T DESTROY THESE PEOPLE, THESE ANIMALS, THESE-- 00:34:02.506 --> 00:34:07.078 THEY'RE COMING TO FINISH YOU. NONE OF YOU WILL SURVIVE." 00:34:07.078 --> 00:34:10.581 AND THEY HAD BEEN MADE TO BELIEVE IT. 00:34:10.581 --> 00:34:13.584 I DON'T WANT TO BE A--TO GIVE AN EXCUSE FOR THEM. 00:34:13.584 --> 00:34:17.088 THEY ARE WILLING KILLERS. THERE'S NO DOUBT IN MY MIND. 00:34:17.088 --> 00:34:20.591 BUT, SEE, AT THE BACK OF THEIR MIND, THE RADIO IS TELLING THEM, 00:34:20.591 --> 00:34:22.093 "THEY'RE COMING TO FINISH YOU. 00:34:22.093 --> 00:34:25.596 "IF YOU DON'T KILL THEM YOURSELVES, THEIR PLAN... 00:34:25.596 --> 00:34:34.739 IS TO FINISH YOU." 00:34:34.739 --> 00:34:37.742 Goldhagen: IN MASSACHUSETTS, I LIVE JUST A FEW MILES 00:34:37.742 --> 00:34:40.745 FROM A LARGE COMMUNITY OF CAMBODIAN AMERICANS. 00:34:40.745 --> 00:34:44.248 MANY OF THEM ARE SURVIVORS OF THE GENOCIDE THAT TOOK THE LIVES 00:34:44.248 --> 00:34:49.253 OF 20% OF CAMBODIA'S POPULATION DURING THE 1970s-- 00:34:49.253 --> 00:34:51.622 ONE IN 5 CAMBODIANS. 00:34:51.622 --> 00:34:53.624 [MEN SINGING IN NATIVE LANGUAGE] 00:34:53.624 --> 00:35:03.067 Goldhagen: IT IS A CHILLING STATISTIC. 00:35:03.067 --> 00:35:05.569 IN THE SPRING OF 1975, 00:35:05.569 --> 00:35:10.074 A COMMUNIST REBEL GROUP, THE KHMER ROUGE, CONQUERED THE COUNTRY. 00:35:10.074 --> 00:35:14.078 THEY WANTED TO TURN CAMBODIA INTO A MARXIST AGRARIAN UTOPIA, 00:35:14.078 --> 00:35:19.083 WHICH, TO THEM, MEANT DESTROYING VIRTUALLY ALL VESTIGES OF MODERN CIVILIZATION. 00:35:19.083 --> 00:35:21.585 Man: FIRST DAY WHEN THEY MARCH INTO THE CITY, 00:35:21.585 --> 00:35:24.588 AND WE'RE SO HAPPY THAT THE WAR IS ENDED. 00:35:24.588 --> 00:35:28.592 WE WERE JOYFUL AND WE SAW THE SOLDIER CAME, THE PEACE COME, 00:35:28.592 --> 00:35:31.595 AND NO MORE FIGHTING, NO MORE WAR, 00:35:31.595 --> 00:35:35.766 AND THEN SUDDENLY EVERYTHING JUST DISAPPEARED. 00:35:35.766 --> 00:35:41.071 I SAW A LOT OF SOLDIERS IN BLACK UNIFORMS CLOSE TO MY HOME. 00:35:41.071 --> 00:35:43.574 [WHISTLE BLOWS] 00:35:43.574 --> 00:35:46.744 THESE SOLDIERS SPRAYED EVERYWHERE, SHOOTING GUNS IN THE AIR 00:35:46.744 --> 00:35:49.680 AND ASK, "LET'S GO, LET'S GO." 00:35:49.680 --> 00:35:55.119 [DISTANT MACHINE GUNFIRE] 00:35:55.119 --> 00:36:00.057 Goldhagen: WITHIN 3 DAYS, KHMER ROUGE CADRES EMPTIED CAMBODIA'S CITIES, 00:36:00.057 --> 00:36:04.562 FORCING MILLIONS INTO THE RURAL CAMPS THEY CALLED COOPERATIVES, 00:36:04.562 --> 00:36:11.135 BUT WHICH CAME TO BE KNOWN TO THE OUTSIDE WORLD AS THE KILLING FIELDS. 00:36:11.135 --> 00:36:14.138 Uong: THINK OVER TWO MILE PER DAY, 3 MILE PER DAY 00:36:14.138 --> 00:36:17.141 THAT WE COULDN'T MOVE BECAUSE OF SO MANY PEOPLE. 00:36:17.141 --> 00:36:20.144 AND ALONG THE ROAD ARE BODIES ALONG THE ROAD EVERYWHERE. 00:36:20.144 --> 00:36:26.250 THEY JUST-- THE SCENE IS JUST AWFUL. 00:36:26.250 --> 00:36:30.254 Goldhagen: THE EXTENT OF THEIR VIOLENT TRANSFORMATION OF CAMBODIAN SOCIETY 00:36:30.254 --> 00:36:34.758 STILL BOGGLES THE MIND. 00:36:34.758 --> 00:36:39.763 AND IT WAS ALL BEGUN BY ONE MAN, KNOWN AS POL POT, 00:36:39.763 --> 00:36:44.268 SUPPORTED BY A SMALL INNER CIRCLE. 00:36:44.268 --> 00:36:47.771 GENOCIDE IS ALWAYS THE DECISION OF ONE LEADER 00:36:47.771 --> 00:36:50.274 OR A SMALL GROUP OF LEADERS. 00:36:50.274 --> 00:36:53.777 THESE INDIVIDUALS MAKE A CHOICE TO INITIATE THE KILLING, 00:36:53.777 --> 00:36:58.282 WHICH, IN EVERY CASE, MEANS THEY COULD HAVE ALSO CHOSEN NOT TO. 00:36:58.282 --> 00:37:04.154 THE LEADERS' GOALS VARY, DEPENDING ON THE TIME, PLACE, AND CIRCUMSTANCES: 00:37:04.154 --> 00:37:09.894 POL POT WANTED TO RADICALLY TRANSFORM CAMBODIAN SOCIETY; 00:37:09.894 --> 00:37:15.633 THE TURKISH LEADER MEHMED TALAAT WANTED TO SECURE TURKEY'S DECAYING EMPIRE; 00:37:15.633 --> 00:37:20.137 ADOLF HITLER WANTED TO CREATE A VAST POLITICAL EMPIRE 00:37:20.137 --> 00:37:23.040 RULED BY THE GERMAN MASTER RACE; 00:37:23.040 --> 00:37:26.543 COLONEL THEONISTE BAGOSORA AND HIS FELLOW HUTU LEADERS 00:37:26.543 --> 00:37:31.115 WANTED TO SECURE POLITICAL POWER IN RWANDA FOR THE HUTU; 00:37:31.115 --> 00:37:33.117 AND IN THE BALKANS, 00:37:33.117 --> 00:37:38.489 SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC WANTED TO PERMANENTLY REDRAW THE POLITICAL MAP OF THE REGION. 00:37:38.489 --> 00:37:41.091 GENOCIDE IS ALWAYS POLITICS. 00:37:41.091 --> 00:37:43.627 OF COURSE, THERE ARE POLITICAL GOALS. 00:37:43.627 --> 00:37:46.630 THOSE POLITICAL GOALS CAN BE REACHED IN DIFFERENT WAYS. 00:37:46.630 --> 00:37:51.568 SOME PEOPLE THINK THAT EXTERMINATING A GROUP WILL HELP THEIR GOALS, 00:37:51.568 --> 00:37:53.604 SO THAT'S WHY THEY DO IT. 00:37:53.604 --> 00:37:56.907 SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC THOUGHT AT THAT TIME, 00:37:56.907 --> 00:38:01.345 THAT HE COULD, BECAUSE OF THE OVERWHELMING MILITARY POWER, 00:38:01.345 --> 00:38:18.829 MAKE SOME TERRITORIAL GAINS IN CROATIA AND BOSNIA, SO HE ATTACKED. 00:38:18.829 --> 00:38:21.832 [MEN SPEAKING INDISTINCTLY] 00:38:21.832 --> 00:38:24.368 Silajdzic: THE FULFILLING OF THEIR MISSION... 00:38:24.368 --> 00:38:26.370 [EXPLOSION] 00:38:26.370 --> 00:38:30.374 WAS...TO MAKE A GREATER SERBIA. 00:38:30.374 --> 00:38:32.876 IN ORDER TO MAKE GREATER SERBIA, 00:38:32.876 --> 00:38:37.614 YOU HAD TO EXTERMINATE PEOPLE IN YOUR WAY. 00:38:37.614 --> 00:38:40.117 Man: SERBIA'S RIGHT THERE ACROSS THE DRINA RIVER, 00:38:40.117 --> 00:38:45.122 AND LOTS OF SERB-CONTROLLED TERRITORY IN THE CENTRAL PART OF THE COUNTRY, 00:38:45.122 --> 00:38:48.359 THEY WANTED TO LINK THOSE TWO ZONES, RIGHT? 00:38:48.359 --> 00:38:52.863 BUT IF YOU HAD LARGE-- A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF MUSLIMS 00:38:52.863 --> 00:38:56.867 ALONG THE WESTERN BANKS OF THAT RIVER, 00:38:56.867 --> 00:39:01.305 YOU HAD A KIND OF BARRIER BETWEEN THOSE TWO SERBIAN AREAS, 00:39:01.305 --> 00:39:03.307 SO THESE PEOPLE HAD TO BE ELIMINATED. 00:39:03.307 --> 00:39:05.876 Silajdzic: THESE THINGS ARE DONE IN COLD BLOOD. 00:39:05.876 --> 00:39:08.879 THIS IS A DESIGN. THIS IS A PLAN. 00:39:08.879 --> 00:39:10.881 THIS IS A CALCULATION, OF COURSE. 00:39:10.881 --> 00:39:13.717 THIS IS NOT A REACTION TO SOMETHING. 00:39:13.717 --> 00:39:18.722 THIS IS--THIS, UNFORTUNATELY, HERE IS A PLANNED GENOCIDE, 00:39:18.722 --> 00:39:21.225 AS IS ANY OTHER GENOCIDE 00:39:21.225 --> 00:39:24.728 BECAUSE IT'S NOT POSSIBLE TO KILL A BIG NUMBER OF PEOPLE 00:39:24.728 --> 00:39:27.731 WITHOUT PRIOR PREPARATION: 00:39:27.731 --> 00:39:29.733 MENTAL PREPARATION, 00:39:29.733 --> 00:39:32.236 INTELLECTUAL PREPARATION, 00:39:32.236 --> 00:39:34.738 MILITARY PREPARATION. 00:39:34.738 --> 00:39:37.741 Goldhagen: PRESIDENT SILAJDZIC IS RIGHT. 00:39:37.741 --> 00:39:41.745 THERE'S A MISCONCEPTION THAT GENOCIDES ERUPT SPONTANEOUSLY 00:39:41.745 --> 00:39:44.782 OUT OF DEEP-SEATED PASSIONS OR ETHNIC CONFLICTS. 00:39:44.782 --> 00:39:51.088 BUT THERE IS NOTHING SPONTANEOUS ABOUT GENOCIDE. 00:39:51.088 --> 00:39:53.590 IN THIS VILLA IN THE SUBURBS OF BERLIN, 00:39:53.590 --> 00:39:56.593 THE NAZI LEADERSHIP DISCUSSED THEIR DETAILED PLANS 00:39:56.593 --> 00:40:01.098 TO EXTERMINATE THE JEWS OF EUROPE. 00:40:01.098 --> 00:40:04.101 THESE TYPEWRITTEN MINUTES DOCUMENT THE MEETING 00:40:04.101 --> 00:40:09.606 AND LIST COUNTRY BY COUNTRY THE 11 MILLION JEWS THEY PLAN TO KILL. 00:40:09.606 --> 00:40:12.609 ONE OF THOSE WAS ERICH GOLDHAGEN, 00:40:12.609 --> 00:40:16.613 THE 10-YEAR-OLD BOY IN WHAT WAS THEN ROMANIA, NOW UKRAINE, 00:40:16.613 --> 00:40:19.216 WHO WOULD GROW UP TO BECOME MY FATHER. 00:40:19.216 --> 00:40:22.219 THE NAZI VICTORY WOULD HAVE BEEN TANTAMOUNT, EVEN WORSE, 00:40:22.219 --> 00:40:24.721 THAN--IT WOULD BE LIKE A NUCLEAR WAR, ALMOST. 00:40:24.721 --> 00:40:24.721 THE DESTRUCTION WOULD BE... 00:40:24.721 --> 00:40:26.723 MM-HMM. 00:40:26.723 --> 00:40:31.228 IT IS PERHAPS EASIER TO RECOVER FROM A NUCLEAR ASSAULT 00:40:31.228 --> 00:40:34.798 THAN IT WOULD BE FROM A NAZI VICTORY. 00:40:34.798 --> 00:40:38.302 Goldhagen: I'VE ASKED HIM TO JOIN ME ON PART OF MY JOURNEY 00:40:38.302 --> 00:40:41.305 TO RETURN TO WHERE HE LIVED DURING THE HOLOCAUST. 00:40:41.305 --> 00:40:41.305 SO HAVE YOU TALKED TO MOM ABOUT OUR TRIP TO CZERNOWITZ? 00:40:41.305 --> 00:40:44.308 YES. 00:40:44.308 --> 00:40:47.311 SHE IS VERY ENTHUSIASTIC ABOUT IT. SHE ENCOURAGES ME TO GO. 00:40:47.311 --> 00:40:50.814 YOU KNOW, MOM IS ALWAYS SOMEONE IN BELIEVING-- 00:40:50.814 --> 00:40:55.819 SHE BELIEVES THAT THE PAST HAS TO BE PRESERVED AND REMEMBERED, 00:40:55.819 --> 00:41:02.759 AND SHE HAS HELPED ME OVERCOME MY NATURAL RELUCTANCE TO GO. 00:41:02.759 --> 00:41:05.262 YOU KNOW, WHEN I TOLD HER THAT SHE HAD TO WORK ON YOU, 00:41:05.262 --> 00:41:08.265 SHE SAID SHE NEVER WORKS ON YOU. HA HA! 00:41:08.265 --> 00:41:10.767 BUT I KNEW I HAD AN ALLY. 00:41:10.767 --> 00:41:14.037 IN A VERY SUBTLE WAY, YOU KNOW, SHE WORKS ON ME. 00:41:14.037 --> 00:41:16.540 ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS TO ENVISION 00:41:16.540 --> 00:41:20.043 WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF HITLER HAD WON THE WAR. 00:41:20.043 --> 00:41:23.547 THERE WOULD BE MASS GRAVES EVERYWHERE, VAST CONCENTRATION CAMPS, 00:41:23.547 --> 00:41:27.551 AND WHAT I CALL IN GREEK A NECROPOLIS, A CITY OF DEATH. 00:41:27.551 --> 00:41:31.054 AND EVEN GERMANY ITSELF WOULD HAVE BEEN TRANSFORMED, 00:41:31.054 --> 00:41:33.557 BUT MOST GERMANS UNDERSTAND THIS, 00:41:33.557 --> 00:41:35.559 THAT HITLER WOULD HAVE DONE TO GERMANY THINGS 00:41:35.559 --> 00:41:38.061 WHICH EVEN THE WORST ENEMY OF GERMANY WOULDN'T HAVE DONE. 00:41:38.061 --> 00:41:42.065 HE WOULD HAVE DESTROYED THE CHRISTIAN CHURCHES, DESTROYED THE CHURCHES, 00:41:42.065 --> 00:41:46.036 KILLED THE INSANE, AND ABOVE ALL, AND THIS IS THE IMPORTANT POINT, 00:41:46.036 --> 00:42:08.825 HE WOULD HAVE CONVERTED THE YOUNGER GENERATION INTO A RACE OF BARBARIANS. 00:42:08.825 --> 00:42:12.329 Goldhagen: THERE IS A WIDELY HELD MISCONCEPTION 00:42:12.329 --> 00:42:15.065 THAT THE GERMANS' EFFICIENCY AND TECHNOLOGY-- 00:42:15.065 --> 00:42:17.067 THE TRAINS AND THE GAS CHAMBERS-- 00:42:17.067 --> 00:42:21.505 MADE IT POSSIBLE FOR THEM TO KILL SO MANY SO QUICKLY. 00:42:21.505 --> 00:42:24.508 AS WE'VE SEEN IN RWANDA AND ELSEWHERE, 00:42:24.508 --> 00:42:28.679 LEADERS DO NOT NEED SOPHISTICATED TECHNOLOGY TO KILL ON A VAST SCALE. 00:42:28.679 --> 00:42:30.914 [MEN SHOUTING IN NATIVE LANGUAGE] 00:42:30.914 --> 00:42:34.084 IT IS THE WILL, AND NOT THE WAY, 00:42:34.084 --> 00:42:36.186 THAT IS CRITICAL. 00:42:36.186 --> 00:42:37.688 [MEN SINGING] 00:42:37.688 --> 00:42:42.192 IN RWANDA, THE HUTU LEADERS DID WHAT ALL GENOCIDAL LEADERS DO. 00:42:42.192 --> 00:42:47.197 THEY TAPPED INTO THE PREJUDICES AND BELIEFS THAT PEOPLE ALREADY HELD. 00:42:47.197 --> 00:42:50.033 GENERATIONS OF HUTU HAD GROWN UP BEING TAUGHT 00:42:50.033 --> 00:43:18.228 THAT THE TUTSI ARE DANGEROUS AND INHUMAN. 00:43:18.228 --> 00:43:20.230 [RADIO STATIC] 00:43:20.230 --> 00:43:43.253 [MAN SPEAKING NATIVE LANGUAGE] 00:43:43.253 --> 00:43:49.993 [MEN SINGING IN NATIVE LANGUAGE] 00:43:49.993 --> 00:44:48.385 Goldhagen: IT WAS EASY TO MOBILIZE HUTU FOR THE KILLING. 00:44:48.385 --> 00:44:55.425 [MAN SHOUTS IN BOSNIAN] 00:44:55.425 --> 00:45:00.364 Silajdzic: IN BOSNIA, THERE WAS DELIBERATELY A PARANOID CULTURE 00:45:00.364 --> 00:45:03.867 CREATED PRIOR TO THE WAR, 00:45:03.867 --> 00:45:06.436 ABOUT 5 OR 6, 7 YEARS. 00:45:06.436 --> 00:45:12.442 THERE WAS A PROPAGANDA OF... 00:45:12.442 --> 00:45:15.846 THE SERBS BEING THREATENED BY EVERYBODY ELSE. 00:45:15.846 --> 00:45:19.182 AND I KNOW PEOPLE WHO, BECAUSE OF THIS PROPAGANDA, 00:45:19.182 --> 00:45:21.685 GOOD PEOPLE, WHO GENUINELY BELIEVED 00:45:21.685 --> 00:45:25.255 THAT THEY ARE SOMEHOW THREATENED, SO THEY HAVE TO ATTACK 00:45:25.255 --> 00:45:27.758 IN ORDER TO DEFEND THEMSELVES. 00:45:27.758 --> 00:45:30.260 [CROWD CHANTS] 00:45:30.260 --> 00:45:32.763 Goldhagen: AS HUTU LEADERS DID IN RWANDA, 00:45:32.763 --> 00:45:35.265 THE SERB LEADER, SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC, 00:45:35.265 --> 00:45:38.101 PLAYED ON BELIEFS HIS FOLLOWERS ALREADY HELD. 00:45:38.101 --> 00:45:42.606 HIS RALLYING CRY WAS ONE THAT MOST SERBS WOULD EASILY EMBRACE: 00:45:42.606 --> 00:45:45.609 UNDER HIS LEADERSHIP, SERBS WOULD RECLAIM THE LAND 00:45:45.609 --> 00:45:47.878 THAT THEY BELIEVED WERE HISTORICALLY THEIRS, 00:45:47.878 --> 00:45:52.382 INCLUDING THE PREDOMINANTLY MUSLIM COUNTRY OF BOSNIA HERZEGOVINA. 00:45:52.382 --> 00:45:56.386 HE EXPLOITED CENTURIES-OLD ANIMOSITIES TOWARD MUSLIMS, 00:45:56.386 --> 00:45:59.890 WHOM THE CHRISTIAN SERBS SAW AS THEIR ETERNAL ENEMIES. 00:45:59.890 --> 00:46:02.826 WHAT THEY'RE BEING TOLD ABOUT BOSNIA'S-- 00:46:02.826 --> 00:46:05.162 ABOUT MUSLIMS, THEY ARE A THREAT TO THEM. 00:46:05.162 --> 00:46:07.063 WHY DOES THIS MAKE SENSE TO THEM? 00:46:07.063 --> 00:46:10.567 BECAUSE IT'S IN HARMONY WITH THE NATIONALIST MYTH 00:46:10.567 --> 00:46:14.137 THAT MANY OF THEM HAVE BEEN FED FOR GENERATIONS, 00:46:14.137 --> 00:46:17.674 AND THE LABELINGS OF THE VICTIMS 00:46:17.674 --> 00:46:24.614 THAT THEY VIOLATED DURING THIS ACTIVITY FIT THAT MYTH. 00:46:24.614 --> 00:46:27.117 [CROWD CHANTING] 00:46:27.117 --> 00:46:32.122 Goldhagen: WHEN THOSE HARBORING POWERFUL HATREDS FINALLY ARE GIVEN THE CHANCE TO KILL, 00:46:32.122 --> 00:46:43.834 THEIR EUPHORIA IS UNMISTAKABLE. 00:46:43.834 --> 00:47:23.874 [WHISTLE BLOWING] 00:47:23.874 --> 00:47:27.377 Goldhagen: IN BOSNIA, THE SERBS' PLAN WAS COMPREHENSIVE. 00:47:27.377 --> 00:47:30.881 IT WAS DESCRIBED WIDELY AS ETHNIC CLEANSING, 00:47:30.881 --> 00:47:34.384 A EUPHEMISM THAT TRIVIALIZES THEIR BRUTAL ACTS. 00:47:34.384 --> 00:47:36.887 THEY ROUNDED UP MUSLIM MEN 00:47:36.887 --> 00:47:42.526 AND PUT THEM IN CONCENTRATION CAMPS OR MURDERED THEM OUTRIGHT. 00:47:42.526 --> 00:47:44.861 THEY EXPELLED FAMILIES FROM THEIR HOMES 00:47:44.861 --> 00:47:56.206 AND FROM REGIONS WHICH THEY WANTED EXCLUSIVELY FOR SERBS. 00:47:56.206 --> 00:47:59.209 AND IN THE CAPITAL CITY, SARAJEVO, 00:47:59.209 --> 00:48:07.017 THEY ATTACKED THE CIVILIAN POPULATION FROM THE SURROUNDING HILLS. 00:48:07.017 --> 00:48:08.518 [GUNFIRE] 00:48:08.518 --> 00:48:10.220 [EXPLOSION] 00:48:10.220 --> 00:48:12.222 [SIREN] 00:48:12.222 --> 00:48:16.860 Man: THE BOSNIAN SERBS FIRED 12 MORTAR AND ARTILLERY ROUNDS LAST NIGHT 00:48:16.860 --> 00:48:19.062 INTO A PART OF THE CITY CROWDED WITH YOUNG PEOPLE. 00:48:19.062 --> 00:48:20.564 [GUNFIRE] 00:48:20.564 --> 00:48:23.533 Sudetic: THE SNIPING ACTIVITY HERE WAS NOTORIOUS. 00:48:23.533 --> 00:48:26.536 PEOPLE WALKING DOWN THE STREET WERE HUNTED LIKE ANIMALS. 00:48:26.536 --> 00:48:28.538 SO WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED TO US IF WE HAD BEEN HERE? 00:48:28.538 --> 00:48:30.540 WE WOULD HAVE BEEN SHOT FROM THOSE BUILDINGS OVER THERE. 00:48:30.540 --> 00:48:30.540 THAT FAR AWAY? I MEAN, THE ROOF-- 00:48:30.540 --> 00:48:32.542 NO, THAT'S NOT FAR AT ALL. 00:48:32.542 --> 00:48:34.544 I MEAN, A SNIPER COULD HAVE HIT US RIGHT HERE? 00:48:34.544 --> 00:48:36.546 OH, YEAH, YEAH. DEFINITELY. 00:48:36.546 --> 00:48:39.049 IT'S NOT A HARD SHOT FROM-- 00:48:39.049 --> 00:48:41.051 FOR A TRAINED SNIPER. 00:48:41.051 --> 00:48:43.253 AND THESE WERE TRAINED PEOPLE. THEY WERE NOT, UH, 00:48:43.253 --> 00:48:45.789 THEY WERE NOT YAHOOS WITH 12-GAUGES. 00:48:45.789 --> 00:48:47.290 [GUNSHOT] 00:48:47.290 --> 00:48:49.292 THESE WERE HIGH-POWERED HUNTING RIFLES. 00:48:49.292 --> 00:48:51.428 THEY USED HIGH-POWERED SNIPER RIFLES 00:48:51.428 --> 00:48:55.932 WITH VERY SOPHISTICATED SIGHT EQUIPMENT ON THEM. 00:48:55.932 --> 00:48:55.932 AND IT'S-- 00:48:55.932 --> 00:48:58.468 YOU'D BE BANGED WITH A HEAD SHOT. 00:48:58.468 --> 00:48:59.936 [GUNSHOT] 00:48:59.936 --> 00:49:01.871 YOU COULD WALK ACROSS THIS STREET 00:49:01.871 --> 00:49:04.307 IN BROAD DAYLIGHT AND NOTHING WOULD HAPPEN, BUT THEN-- 00:49:04.307 --> 00:49:07.644 [MACHINE GUNFIRE] 00:49:07.644 --> 00:49:09.145 LIKE BAGGING PREY. 00:49:09.145 --> 00:49:10.647 WERE THEY JUST AS LIKELY TO SHOOT WOMEN? 00:49:10.647 --> 00:49:10.647 YES. 00:49:10.647 --> 00:49:10.647 AND CHILDREN? 00:49:10.647 --> 00:49:12.148 YEAH. 00:49:12.148 --> 00:49:12.148 SO IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU BEING A SOLDIER, PER SE. 00:49:12.148 --> 00:49:14.651 NO. 00:49:14.651 --> 00:49:16.653 SO WHAT WAS-- I MEAN, WHAT WAS THE FUNCTION? 00:49:16.653 --> 00:49:16.653 I MEAN, WHY WERE THEY 00:49:16.653 --> 00:49:18.588 DOING THIS? TERROR. 00:49:18.588 --> 00:49:21.124 [EXPLOSION, GUNFIRE] 00:49:21.124 --> 00:49:21.124 GET RID OF THE MUSLIMS. 00:49:21.124 --> 00:49:23.126 YEAH. 00:49:23.126 --> 00:49:25.128 AND SO TERRORIZE THEM, 00:49:25.128 --> 00:49:25.128 KILL AS MANY AS POSSIBLE-- 00:49:25.128 --> 00:49:27.130 YES. 00:49:27.130 --> 00:49:31.034 PUSH AS MANY OF THEM INTO AS SMALL AN AREA AS POSSIBLE SO THEY COULD TAKE THE REST. 00:49:31.034 --> 00:49:34.037 THEY KNEW EVERYTHING. THEY PREPARE EVERYTHING. 00:49:34.037 --> 00:49:37.540 IT WAS REALLY ACTUALLY PLANNED AND SYSTEMATIC. 00:49:37.540 --> 00:49:40.043 ACTUALLY SYSTEMATICALLY PLANNED, THE WAR, 00:49:40.043 --> 00:49:44.047 OF ACTUALLY ESTABLISHING CONCENTRATION CAMPS, 00:49:44.047 --> 00:49:48.551 KILLING, RAPING, EVERYTHING. 00:49:48.551 --> 00:49:51.054 RAPING'S ONE OF THE WORST CRIMES. 00:49:51.054 --> 00:49:55.058 IT NOT ONLY HUMILIATES THE PERSON, 00:49:55.058 --> 00:49:55.058 IT DESTROYS THE FAMILY. 00:49:55.058 --> 00:49:57.060 MM-HMM. 00:49:57.060 --> 00:50:01.564 THERE IS SO MANY CASES OF UNWANTED CHILDREN. 00:50:01.564 --> 00:50:05.368 THE MOTHER DOESN'T RECOGNIZE HER SON OR DAUGHTER 00:50:05.368 --> 00:50:08.872 THAT CAME FROM THESE RAPINGS. 00:50:08.872 --> 00:50:12.375 Goldhagen: THE SERBS' WIDESPREAD RAPING OF BOSNIAN WOMEN 00:50:12.375 --> 00:50:14.878 WAS NOT THE KIND OF THING, AS MANY THINK, 00:50:14.878 --> 00:50:16.880 THAT HAPPENS INEVITABLY IN WAR ZONES. 00:50:16.880 --> 00:50:20.383 Muratcaus: THEY DID NOTHING, ACTUALLY... 00:50:20.383 --> 00:50:22.385 Goldhagen, voice-over: LIKE KILLING, 00:50:22.385 --> 00:50:26.389 THE SERBS USE RAPE AND RAPE CAMPS AS AN INTEGRAL COMPONENT 00:50:26.389 --> 00:50:29.893 OF THEIR CAMPAIGN TO RID THE COUNTRY OF ITS MUSLIM POPULATION. 00:50:29.893 --> 00:50:34.864 Muratcaus: WE WILL NEVER FIND OUT HOW MANY WOMEN WERE RAPED 00:50:34.864 --> 00:50:37.000 ALL OVER BOSNIA. 00:50:37.000 --> 00:50:40.003 THEY ACTUALLY POSED US 00:50:40.003 --> 00:50:44.708 IN SOME BIG ROOMS WITH MAYBE 14 BEDS. 00:50:44.708 --> 00:50:50.213 THEY ARE YELLING AT US, "YOU WILL HAVE SERBIAN BABIES, SERBIAN CHILDREN." 00:50:50.213 --> 00:50:52.215 THEY WERE BEATEN, 00:50:52.215 --> 00:50:54.718 HORRIBLY BEATEN 00:50:54.718 --> 00:50:59.222 WITH FACE, WITH, ACTUALLY, THEIR LEGS AND... 00:50:59.222 --> 00:51:02.892 HORRIBLE. 00:51:02.892 --> 00:51:07.464 [COMPUTER KEYBOARD KEYS TAPPING] 00:51:07.464 --> 00:51:10.467 THERE'S A LOT TO MAKE SENSE OF HERE. 00:51:10.467 --> 00:51:13.470 IT SEEMS TO ME WE'VE BEEN MISSING A CRITICAL POINT 00:51:13.470 --> 00:51:15.972 IN UNDERSTANDING THESE HORRORS. 00:51:15.972 --> 00:51:19.476 THE MASTERMINDS OF GENOCIDE USE DIFFERENT MEANS 00:51:19.476 --> 00:51:24.414 IN VARYING COMBINATIONS TO GET RID OF UNWANTED PEOPLE. 00:51:24.414 --> 00:51:27.117 THEY EXPEL VICTIMS FROM THEIR COUNTRIES, 00:51:27.117 --> 00:51:28.885 THEY HERD THEM INTO CAMPS, 00:51:28.885 --> 00:51:31.621 THEY RAPE WOMEN IN AN ORGANIZED WAY, 00:51:31.621 --> 00:51:36.626 AND OF COURSE, THEY SYSTEMATICALLY SLAUGHTER. 00:51:36.626 --> 00:51:39.629 [COMPUTER KEYBOARD KEYS TAPPING] 00:51:39.629 --> 00:51:45.635 SO WHAT WE OFTEN THINK OF AS GENOCIDE IS NEVER JUST ABOUT KILLING. 00:51:45.635 --> 00:51:48.471 WHAT THE PERPETRATORS WANT MOST OF ALL 00:51:48.471 --> 00:51:59.983 IS TO ELIMINATE A SUBSTANTIAL PART OR ALL OF THE TARGETED GROUP. 00:51:59.983 --> 00:52:02.919 TERMS LIKE "GENOCIDE" OR EVEN "MASS MURDER" 00:52:02.919 --> 00:52:09.926 ARE INADEQUATE TO DESCRIBE THE PHENOMENON WE HAVE REPEATEDLY WITNESSED. 00:52:09.926 --> 00:52:14.998 AS A POLITICAL SCIENTIST, I LIVE AND WORK IN A WORLD OF ISMS. 00:52:14.998 --> 00:52:19.769 THIS ONE WE SHOULD CALL ELIMINATIONISM. 00:52:19.769 --> 00:52:26.276 REFRAMING THE WAY WE THINK ABOUT THESE DEEDS IS NOT JUST AN INTELLECTUAL EXERCISE. 00:52:26.276 --> 00:52:28.778 IT'S A CRITICAL COMPONENT OF UNDERSTANDING 00:52:28.778 --> 00:52:34.784 THAT GENOCIDE IS ONE PART OF A LARGER PHENOMENON THAT WE MUST COMBAT. 00:52:34.784 --> 00:52:39.689 WE NEED TO BE ON ALERT WHEN WE SEE ANY FORM OF ELIMINATIONIST POLITICS, 00:52:39.689 --> 00:52:45.695 WHETHER IT INITIALLY INCLUDES KILLING OR NOT. 00:52:45.695 --> 00:52:50.200 EVERYWHERE IT IS PRACTICED, ELIMINATIONISM TAKES DIFFERENT FORMS. 00:52:50.200 --> 00:52:52.702 RWANDA WAS DIFFERENT FROM BOSNIA, 00:52:52.702 --> 00:52:57.207 CAMBODIA WAS DIFFERENT FROM TURKEY. 00:52:57.207 --> 00:53:04.080 THE GERMANS' ASSAULT ON THE JEWS WAS ALSO DIFFERENT. 00:53:04.080 --> 00:53:09.152 IT WAS THE ONLY CASE WHEN PERPETRATORS TARGETED EVERY ADULT AND CHILD, 00:53:09.152 --> 00:53:12.655 WITHOUT EXCEPTION, FOR ANNIHILATION, 00:53:12.655 --> 00:53:17.594 AND WHERE THAT MURDEROUS POLICY EXTENDED TO COUNTRY AFTER COUNTRY, 00:53:17.594 --> 00:53:21.598 INCLUDING JEWS HALF A CONTINENT AWAY. 00:53:21.598 --> 00:53:24.601 Goldhagen: SO IT'S 64 YEARS SINCE YOU'VE BEEN BACK, RIGHT? 00:53:24.601 --> 00:53:24.601 YES, THAT'S RIGHT, YES. 00:53:24.601 --> 00:53:26.069 AND-- 00:53:26.069 --> 00:53:28.571 AND I FEEL THE SADNESS AS I COME BACK 00:53:28.571 --> 00:53:31.074 TO THIS PLACE WHERE I WAS ALMOST KILLED, 00:53:31.074 --> 00:53:34.577 WHERE A GREAT PART OF MY FAMILY LIES BURIED. 00:53:34.577 --> 00:53:38.581 HAD YOU--HAD YOU EVER-- 00:53:38.581 --> 00:53:40.583 HAD YOU PLANNED ONE DAY TO COME BACK ON YOUR OWN? 00:53:40.583 --> 00:53:43.086 NO, NEVER. REALLY NOT. 00:53:43.086 --> 00:53:45.588 UH, I PROBABLY WOULD HAVE NEVER COME BACK 00:53:45.588 --> 00:53:49.592 HAD IT NOT BEEN THAT YOU WERE MAKING THIS FILM. 00:53:49.592 --> 00:53:53.096 SO ARE YOU A RELUCTANT, IF WILLING, PARTICIPANT? 00:53:53.096 --> 00:54:03.706 AN AMBIVALENT PARTICIPANT, I WOULD SAY. 00:54:03.706 --> 00:54:06.776 Goldhagen: THE JEWS IN THE REGION WHERE MY FATHER LIVED 00:54:06.776 --> 00:54:09.979 WERE KILLED, IN MOST CASES, BY THE EINSATZGRUPPEN-- 00:54:09.979 --> 00:54:13.483 MOBILE KILLING SQUADS CHARGED WITH EXTERMINATING EVERY JEW 00:54:13.483 --> 00:54:16.986 IN THE SOVIET TERRITORY CONQUERED BY THE GERMANS. 00:54:16.986 --> 00:54:30.333 THEY KILLED WITH BRUTAL ABANDON. 00:54:30.333 --> 00:54:33.836 Goldhagen: IS THERE ANY-- IS THERE A POSITIVE SIDE FOR YOU TO GO BACK? 00:54:33.836 --> 00:54:36.105 SHOWING ME THE PLACES YOU WERE-- 00:54:36.105 --> 00:54:38.608 YES, SHOWING YOU THE PLACES 00:54:38.608 --> 00:54:42.111 BECAUSE YOU HAVE BEEN SORT OF AN ACADEMIC, 00:54:42.111 --> 00:54:45.615 VERY SECLUDED, 00:54:45.615 --> 00:54:48.117 NEVER... 00:54:48.117 --> 00:54:52.121 FOR THE FIRST TIME-- YOU HAVE STUDIED 00:54:52.121 --> 00:54:56.626 THIS PHENOMENON FROM A DISTANCE, THROUGH DOCUMENT. 00:54:56.626 --> 00:55:06.069 COME NOW, YOU HAVE SEEN THE MASS GRAVES IN GUATEMALA. 00:55:06.069 --> 00:55:09.072 AND YOU CERTAINLY SHOULD HAVE A LOOK AT THE MASS GRAVE 00:55:09.072 --> 00:55:17.580 OF SOME OF YOUR RELATIVES, GRAVE OF MY PARENTS. 00:55:17.580 --> 00:55:23.086 Goldhagen: THERE WERE 2,000 JEWS IN THIS TOWN WHEN MY FATHER USED TO VISIT HIS RELATIVES HERE. 00:55:23.086 --> 00:55:27.223 NOW THERE ARE 3. 00:55:27.223 --> 00:55:32.228 MOST LIE IN A MASS GRAVE NEAR WHAT IS NOW A POPULAR PICNIC SITE. 00:55:32.228 --> 00:55:39.168 [BOYS SHOUTING] 00:55:39.168 --> 00:55:41.671 [SPEAKING NATIVE LANGUAGE] 00:55:41.671 --> 00:55:45.842 Goldhagen: LIKE MY FATHER, I HAVE ALWAYS ENDEAVORED TO SEPARATE MY EMOTIONS 00:55:45.842 --> 00:55:48.344 FROM MY SCHOLARLY WORK ON GENOCIDE. 00:55:48.344 --> 00:55:52.849 BUT HERE WE ARE, AT A MOMENT THAT I NEVER IMAGINED. 00:55:52.849 --> 00:55:56.019 A LOCAL MAN HAS AGREED TO GUIDE US TO THE SITE 00:55:56.019 --> 00:56:00.456 WHERE GERMANS MURDERED MY FATHER'S RELATIVES AND 2,000 OTHERS. 00:56:00.456 --> 00:56:01.958 I SEE, I SEE. 00:56:01.958 --> 00:56:13.536 OH, HERE WE CAN GO CLOSE. 00:56:13.536 --> 00:56:17.040 Goldhagen: THE SCHOLAR'S JOB IS TO STAND BACK AND ANALYZE, 00:56:17.040 --> 00:56:21.110 BUT THE SURVIVOR AND THE SON HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO DRAW NEAR. 00:56:21.110 --> 00:56:23.613 "TO THE ETERNAL MEMORY 00:56:23.613 --> 00:56:27.884 OF THE JEWS OF KOSOV..." 00:56:27.884 --> 00:56:30.887 "WHO WERE MURDERED 00:56:30.887 --> 00:56:34.724 "BY THE NAZI MURDERERS 00:56:34.724 --> 00:56:38.261 AND THEIR HELPERS." 00:56:38.261 --> 00:56:39.796 SO... 00:56:39.796 --> 00:56:42.799 HOW MANY...PEOPLE FROM YOUR FAMILY 00:56:42.799 --> 00:56:45.802 ARE LYING IN THIS MASS GRAVE-- 00:56:45.802 --> 00:56:48.771 I WOULD ESTIMATE IT OVER A DOZEN PEOPLE. 00:56:48.771 --> 00:56:50.273 WERE YOU CLOSE TO THEM? 00:56:50.273 --> 00:56:52.041 I WAS VERY CLOSE TO THEM. I VISITED THEM HERE, 00:56:52.041 --> 00:56:55.044 AND IT EVOKES SOME CERTAIN EMOTIONS. 00:56:55.044 --> 00:56:59.048 THE IMAGES OF SOME, OF ELDERS APPEAR BEFORE ME. 00:56:59.048 --> 00:57:03.486 I SEE THEM NOW. AS I SPEAK TO YOU NOW, I SEE THEM. 00:57:03.486 --> 00:57:07.657 SOMETIMES--AS YOU MAY REMEMBER WHEN I GAVE THE COURSE 00:57:07.657 --> 00:57:10.793 ON THE HOLOCAUST AT HARVARD-- 00:57:10.793 --> 00:57:13.563 I EXPERIENCE SOMETIMES A SENSE OF GUILT 00:57:13.563 --> 00:57:16.165 AT THE FACT THAT I SPEAK SO COOLLY 00:57:16.165 --> 00:57:18.334 AND ANALYTICALLY OVER THEIR DEATH. 00:57:18.334 --> 00:57:21.204 I'M YOUR SON IN MANY WAYS, 00:57:21.204 --> 00:57:24.073 AND YOUR DISPASSION IS MY OWN. 00:57:24.073 --> 00:57:26.075 HOW--HOW DID THEY DIE? 00:57:26.075 --> 00:57:27.643 WHAT HAPPENED HERE? 00:57:27.643 --> 00:57:30.012 WELL, THEY BROUGHT THEM UP HERE 00:57:30.012 --> 00:57:31.614 AND KILLED THEM BY GUNFIRE. 00:57:31.614 --> 00:57:33.316 ONE GROUP FELL INTO THE GRAVE. 00:57:33.316 --> 00:57:34.951 THEN ANOTHER GROUP WAS LINED UP, 00:57:34.951 --> 00:57:36.185 THEY FELL INTO THE GRAVE. 00:57:36.185 --> 00:57:36.185 WHEN THEY WERE SHOT? 00:57:36.185 --> 00:57:37.920 WHEN THEY WERE SHOT 00:57:37.920 --> 00:57:40.289 UNTIL--AND MANY OF THEM WERE PROBABLY NOT KILLED, 00:57:40.289 --> 00:57:41.757 MANY OF THEM WERE PROBABLY NOT DEAD. 00:57:41.757 --> 00:57:44.961 THEY WERE ALIVE AS THEY FELL INTO THE GRAVE, 00:57:44.961 --> 00:57:50.066 AND UKRAINIAN GROUPS WERE MADE TO COVER THE GRAVES. 00:57:50.066 --> 00:57:51.801 YOU KNOW, AS WE'VE OFTEN SPOKEN BEFORE, 00:57:51.801 --> 00:57:55.738 IT'S SHOCKING TO ME TO REFLECT ON HOW DETACHED I AM, TOO, 00:57:55.738 --> 00:57:57.807 FROM THIS, THAT I DIDN'T EVEN MAKE 00:57:57.807 --> 00:58:00.276 THIS OBVIOUS CONNECTION THAT WE WERE GOING HERE 00:58:00.276 --> 00:58:02.545 WHEN I WAS IN A MASS GRAVE IN GUATEMALA, 00:58:02.545 --> 00:58:04.780 BUT NOW THAT WE'RE HERE, 00:58:04.780 --> 00:58:07.216 I REALIZE THAT SUDDENLY MY RELATIVES 00:58:07.216 --> 00:58:10.153 MURDERED SIT BELOW US, LIE BELOW US 00:58:10.153 --> 00:58:15.057 UNMARKED, UNKNOWN, 00:58:15.057 --> 00:58:16.792 BARELY REGISTERED IN ANY WAY, 00:58:16.792 --> 00:58:21.831 THEIR NAMES ABSENT, SOON TO BE FORGOTTEN COMPLETELY. 00:58:21.831 --> 00:58:34.343 SHOULD WE GET SOME STONES, TATI? 00:58:34.343 --> 00:59:10.446 PERHAPS WE BETTER PUT THEM ON EACH. 00:59:10.446 --> 00:59:19.388 [INDISTINCT CHATTER] 00:59:19.388 --> 00:59:21.357 [DRUMS BEATING] 00:59:21.357 --> 00:59:32.501 [SINGING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE] 00:59:32.501 --> 00:59:35.371 Woman: WELL, CERTAINLY, WE THOUGHT THAT WE WERE SAYING, 00:59:35.371 --> 00:59:38.608 "NEVER AGAIN," BUT WE KEEP SAYING, "NEVER AGAIN," 00:59:38.608 --> 00:59:40.142 OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN. 00:59:40.142 --> 00:59:41.377 WELL, THERE ARE TWO DIFFERENT ISSUES. 00:59:41.377 --> 00:59:43.279 WHY DOES THIS KEEP HAPPENING AGAIN, 00:59:43.279 --> 00:59:45.047 AND WHY DOESN'T ANYBODY DO ANYTHING 00:59:45.047 --> 00:59:46.782 TO STOP IT FROM HAPPENING AGAIN? 00:59:46.782 --> 00:59:48.951 AND IT KEEPS HAPPENING BECAUSE 00:59:48.951 --> 00:59:50.987 THERE ARE POLITICAL REGIMES THAT FIND IT USEFUL 00:59:50.987 --> 00:59:53.556 TO DEAL WITH THEIR SELF-DEFINED PROBLEMS, 00:59:53.556 --> 00:59:55.057 AND IT'S A VERY USEFUL TOOL. 00:59:55.057 --> 00:59:58.361 THEY DO IT BECAUSE THEY KNOW THEY HAVE BASICALLY IMPUNITY, 00:59:58.361 --> 01:00:01.230 AND THERE HAS BEEN VERY LITTLE CALLING TO ACCOUNT, 01:00:01.230 --> 01:00:03.733 AND THEY GET AWAY WITH IT TIME AND TIME AGAIN. 01:00:03.733 --> 01:00:06.569 SO QUITE CLEARLY, THE STATUS QUO IS CATASTROPHIC, 01:00:06.569 --> 01:00:07.670 AND WHEN I SAY CATASTROPHIC, 01:00:07.670 --> 01:00:09.705 I MEAN LITERALLY CATASTROPHIC 01:00:09.705 --> 01:00:11.707 BECAUSE IT TAKES THE LIVES OF TENS OF THOUSANDS, 01:00:11.707 --> 01:00:12.808 HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS, 01:00:12.808 --> 01:00:15.111 MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS OF PEOPLE, 01:00:15.111 --> 01:00:17.146 AND SO "NEVER AGAIN" IS A HOLLOW PHRASE. 01:00:17.146 --> 01:00:19.148 IT'S WELL-MEANT, BUT IN THE WORLD 01:00:19.148 --> 01:00:20.683 OF WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENS, 01:00:20.683 --> 01:00:26.756 IT'S BEEN A HOLLOW PHRASE, A MOCKERY OF ITSELF. 01:00:26.756 --> 01:00:30.059 THE INACTION OF WORLD LEADERS IN THE FACE OF MASS SLAUGHTER 01:00:30.059 --> 01:00:33.195 GOES BACK WELL BEFORE THE HOLOCAUST, 01:00:33.195 --> 01:00:37.600 AND GENOCIDAL LEADERS HAVE TAKEN NOTE. 01:00:37.600 --> 01:00:40.436 STARTING IN 1915, THE TURKISH GOVERNMENT KILLED 01:00:40.436 --> 01:00:42.805 AT LEAST A MILLION ARMENIANS 01:00:42.805 --> 01:00:46.609 AND EXPELLED HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS MORE. 01:00:46.609 --> 01:00:48.611 THE STORY OF THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE 01:00:48.611 --> 01:00:52.448 WAS COVERED ON THE FRONT PAGE OF THE "NEW YORK TIMES," 01:00:52.448 --> 01:00:54.750 AND TURKEY'S LEADERS WERE EXPLICITLY WARNED 01:00:54.750 --> 01:00:56.986 BY THE U.S. AND OTHERS THAT THEIR NATION 01:00:56.986 --> 01:01:00.723 WOULD BE CONDEMNED BY THE WORLD, 01:01:00.723 --> 01:01:05.761 BUT THE MASTERMINDS OF GENOCIDE WERE UNDETERRED. 01:01:05.761 --> 01:01:08.564 THE TURKS BRAZENLY DESTROYED COMMUNITIES, 01:01:08.564 --> 01:01:11.801 KILLED, RAPED, AND DROVE THE ARMENIAN PEOPLE 01:01:11.801 --> 01:01:17.840 INTO THE DESERT, WHERE THEY STARVED TO DEATH. 01:01:17.840 --> 01:01:19.542 FOR A CENTURY, TURKEY HAS REFUSED 01:01:19.542 --> 01:01:22.712 TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE GENOCIDE, 01:01:22.712 --> 01:01:24.780 AND REMARKABLY, MANY AROUND THE WORLD, 01:01:24.780 --> 01:01:29.418 INCLUDING THE U.S. GOVERNMENT, HAVE ALLOWED THEM TO DO SO. 01:01:29.418 --> 01:01:30.686 Man: THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE 01:01:30.686 --> 01:01:34.957 IS THE ONLY GENOCIDE THAT WE HAVE TROUBLE RECOGNIZING, 01:01:34.957 --> 01:01:37.293 AND IT'S BECAUSE THE CAMPAIGN OF DENIAL 01:01:37.293 --> 01:01:38.861 CONTINUES TO THIS DAY. 01:01:38.861 --> 01:01:41.197 Woman: OUR GOVERNMENT IS FLAT OUT WRONG 01:01:41.197 --> 01:01:44.633 IN THEIR REFUSAL TO RECOGNIZE THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE. 01:01:44.633 --> 01:01:49.305 WE MUST CALL GENOCIDE BY ITS NAME. 01:01:49.305 --> 01:01:51.340 Schiff: WE CAN'T HAVE THE KIND OF LEADERSHIP 01:01:51.340 --> 01:01:54.810 THAT WE NEED IN STOPPING GENOCIDE GOING ON TODAY 01:01:54.810 --> 01:01:58.314 IF WE'RE EQUIVOCAL ABOUT THE MURDER OF OTHER PEOPLE 01:01:58.314 --> 01:02:02.618 BECAUSE IT MIGHT OFFEND AN ALLY. 01:02:02.618 --> 01:02:04.086 I SHOULD THINK THAT IT WOULD BE A NO-BRAINER 01:02:04.086 --> 01:02:06.222 THAT A RESOLUTION BE PASSED TO ACKNOWLEDGE THIS. 01:02:06.222 --> 01:02:07.623 WHAT'S THE PROBLEM? 01:02:07.623 --> 01:02:09.458 WELL, IT SHOULD BE A NO-BRAINER. 01:02:09.458 --> 01:02:12.461 AS IT IS, IT'S AN ENORMOUSLY DIFFICULT CHALLENGE. 01:02:12.461 --> 01:02:16.732 WHEN THE GENOCIDE RESOLUTION WAS IN COMMITTEE LAST FALL, 01:02:16.732 --> 01:02:18.100 THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES 01:02:18.100 --> 01:02:21.237 WAS ON THE PHONE, CALLING COMMITTEE MEMBERS AT THEIR HOME 01:02:21.237 --> 01:02:22.772 TO URGE THEM TO VOTE AGAINST IT. 01:02:22.772 --> 01:02:22.772 FOR THIS RESOLUTION? 01:02:22.772 --> 01:02:24.573 FOR THIS RESOLUTION. 01:02:24.573 --> 01:02:27.676 WE ALL DEEPLY REGRET THE TRAGIC SUFFERING OF THE ARMENIAN PEOPLE 01:02:27.676 --> 01:02:31.514 THAT BEGAN IN 1915. 01:02:31.514 --> 01:02:33.482 THIS RESOLUTION IS NOT THE RIGHT RESPONSE 01:02:33.482 --> 01:02:35.618 TO THESE HISTORIC MASS KILLINGS. 01:02:35.618 --> 01:02:36.719 THE PROBLEM THAT WE HAVE 01:02:36.719 --> 01:02:37.887 IS THAT THIS IS CLEARLY 01:02:37.887 --> 01:02:39.221 A VERY SENSITIVE SUBJECT 01:02:39.221 --> 01:02:40.689 FOR ONE OF OUR CLOSEST ALLIES. 01:02:40.689 --> 01:02:43.492 YOU HAD MEMBERS OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF CALLING MEMBERS, 01:02:43.492 --> 01:02:46.228 YOU HAD THE SECRETARY OF STATE CALLING MEMBERS. 01:02:46.228 --> 01:02:50.299 I'VE NEVER SEEN A FULL-COURT PRESS LIKE THIS ON ANY RESOLUTION. 01:02:50.299 --> 01:02:52.501 I DON'T THINK WE STRENGTHEN OUR RELATIONSHIP 01:02:52.501 --> 01:02:54.970 EVEN WITH AN ALLY WHEN WE TURN A BLIND EYE 01:02:54.970 --> 01:02:58.774 TO SOME OF THE WORST CHAPTERS IN HUMAN HISTORY. 01:02:58.774 --> 01:03:02.111 Goldhagen: OUR POLITICIANS MAY FAIL TO LEARN FROM HISTORY, 01:03:02.111 --> 01:03:04.447 BUT THERE IS AMPLE EVIDENCE THAT MASS MURDERERS 01:03:04.447 --> 01:03:06.482 HAVE LEARNED QUITE WELL. 01:03:06.482 --> 01:03:08.250 Man: SUDANESE PRESIDENT OMAR AL-BASHIR 01:03:08.250 --> 01:03:09.685 HAS BEEN ACCUSED OF MASTERMINDING 01:03:09.685 --> 01:03:12.054 A CAMPAIGN OF GENOCIDE IN DARFUR. 01:03:12.054 --> 01:03:15.791 Goldhagen: 20 YEARS BEFORE THE RECENT CRISIS IN DARFUR, 01:03:15.791 --> 01:03:18.461 THE SAME SUDANESE GOVERNMENT KILLED AND EXPELLED 01:03:18.461 --> 01:03:25.668 EVEN MORE PEOPLE IN SOUTHERN SUDAN. 01:03:25.668 --> 01:03:27.703 AFTER KILLING TWO MILLION THEN, 01:03:27.703 --> 01:03:30.840 THE SUDANESE LEADER OMAR AL-BASHIR LEARNED 01:03:30.840 --> 01:03:36.745 THAT THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY WOULD LET HIM DO IT AGAIN. 01:03:36.745 --> 01:03:50.392 WHY DOES THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY FAIL TO INTERVENE TIME AND TIME AGAIN? 01:03:50.392 --> 01:03:54.296 JUST TELL ME. 01:03:54.296 --> 01:03:55.965 Madeleine Albright: AS OUR REPORT EMPHASIZES, 01:03:55.965 --> 01:03:58.767 THE CHOICE WE FACE IN TRYING TO PREVENT GENOCIDE 01:03:58.767 --> 01:04:02.638 IS RARELY A CASE OF ALL OR NOTHING. 01:04:02.638 --> 01:04:05.641 THERE IS A BROAD RANGE OF FOREIGN POLICY OPTIONS 01:04:05.641 --> 01:04:09.411 BETWEEN STANDING ASIDE AND ORDERING IN THE MARINES. 01:04:09.411 --> 01:04:12.648 Goldhagen: THE CO-CHAIR OF A RECENT TASK FORCE ON THE SUBJECT, 01:04:12.648 --> 01:04:15.384 FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE MADELEINE ALBRIGHT 01:04:15.384 --> 01:04:18.254 SERVED AS U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS 01:04:18.254 --> 01:04:20.823 DURING THE BOSNIAN AND RWANDAN GENOCIDES. 01:04:20.823 --> 01:04:32.134 [ELEVATOR PINGING] 01:04:32.134 --> 01:04:34.503 Goldhagen: YOU KNOW, IF ONE IS SIMPLY NAIVE, 01:04:34.503 --> 01:04:39.642 ONE SEES A WORLD OF POWERFUL COUNTRIES USUALLY LOOKING ON 01:04:39.642 --> 01:04:42.978 WITH SOME INEPTITUDE AT BEST AT COUNTRIES 01:04:42.978 --> 01:04:44.713 THAT ARE POOR AND NOT VERY POWERFUL 01:04:44.713 --> 01:04:47.116 IN WHICH THEIR LEADERSHIP IS SLAUGHTERING PEOPLE, 01:04:47.116 --> 01:04:49.585 AND YOU WONDER HOW CAN THIS BE? 01:04:49.585 --> 01:04:51.287 IF YOU GO TO PEOPLE AND YOU SAY, 01:04:51.287 --> 01:04:53.155 "YOU CAN PREVENT MASS MURDER," 01:04:53.155 --> 01:04:55.124 THEN MOST PEOPLE WILL THINK, 01:04:55.124 --> 01:04:57.059 "OK. I'LL DO THE BEST I CAN." 01:04:57.059 --> 01:05:00.229 THE PROBLEM IS THAT WORLD LEADERS 01:05:00.229 --> 01:05:02.431 OR LEADERS GENERALLY ARE DISTRACTED. 01:05:02.431 --> 01:05:03.799 THERE'S SO MUCH TO DO. 01:05:03.799 --> 01:05:05.434 IT ISN'T AS IF THEY'RE NOT DOING ANYTHING. 01:05:05.434 --> 01:05:07.636 THERE'S NO WAY TO DESCRIBE TO SOMEONE 01:05:07.636 --> 01:05:10.172 THAT HAS NEVER BEEN IN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT 01:05:10.172 --> 01:05:14.243 OR ANY GOVERNMENT HOW MANY THINGS ARE HAPPENING EVERY HOUR 01:05:14.243 --> 01:05:18.914 AND REQUIRE ATTENTION AND REQUIRE WILL AND REQUIRE RESOURCES. 01:05:18.914 --> 01:05:22.084 THE QUESTION IS WHETHER YOUR GOVERNMENTAL SYSTEM 01:05:22.084 --> 01:05:27.022 IS SET UP IN A WAY THAT YOU DON'T HAVE TO START FROM SCRATCH. 01:05:27.022 --> 01:05:28.824 WE CAN TALK ABOUT RWANDA, 01:05:28.824 --> 01:05:31.193 WHERE THERE WERE MANY DIFFERENT PLAYERS INVOLVED 01:05:31.193 --> 01:05:33.295 AND PEOPLE HAD DIFFERENT DEGREES OF KNOWLEDGE 01:05:33.295 --> 01:05:35.497 AT DIFFERENT TIMES ABOUT WHAT WAS GOING ON. 01:05:35.497 --> 01:05:37.566 IT SEEMS THAT THERE WAS A CLEAR LACK OF WILL-- 01:05:37.566 --> 01:05:39.535 NOT GOODWILL IN THE SENSE OF COURSE PEOPLE DIDN'T WANT 01:05:39.535 --> 01:05:41.036 THE PEOPLE THERE TO BE SLAUGHTERED, 01:05:41.036 --> 01:05:44.173 BUT WILL ACTUALLY TO TAKE THE SACRIFICE 01:05:44.173 --> 01:05:45.374 OR MAKE THE SACRIFICE THAT WAS NECESSARY 01:05:45.374 --> 01:05:46.775 SEE, I DISAGREE WITH YOU. 01:05:46.775 --> 01:05:50.479 THE BELGIANS PULLED OUT, DALLAIRE WAS-- YOU KNOW THE STORY. 01:05:50.479 --> 01:05:54.917 DALLAIRE WAS CRYING OUT FOR MORE SUPPORT. 01:05:54.917 --> 01:05:57.286 MAYBE NOT EVERYONE COULD HAVE BEEN SAVED, 01:05:57.286 --> 01:05:58.621 BUT A LOT OF PEOPLE COULD HAVE BEEN SAVED. 01:05:58.621 --> 01:06:00.789 I MEAN, THIS IS AN ISSUE THAT WEIGHS VERY HEAVY 01:06:00.789 --> 01:06:02.191 ON ALL OUR HEARTS. 01:06:02.191 --> 01:06:03.692 WE WERE AT THE SAME TIME DEALING 01:06:03.692 --> 01:06:06.729 WITH SOMALIA, BOSNIA, HAITI, 01:06:06.729 --> 01:06:08.864 A FEW OTHER THINGS THAT WERE GOING ON, 01:06:08.864 --> 01:06:12.568 AND I THINK THAT PEOPLE DID NOT FULLY UNDERSTAND 01:06:12.568 --> 01:06:15.004 ALL THE HUTU-TUTSI RIVALRY 01:06:15.004 --> 01:06:17.106 AND THE INTERNAL THINGS THAT WERE BUILDING UP. 01:06:17.106 --> 01:06:20.242 THAT, I THINK, WAS SOMETHING THAT HAD NOT BEEN PAID 01:06:20.242 --> 01:06:21.810 ENOUGH ATTENTION TO. 01:06:21.810 --> 01:06:24.146 IT IS MUCH EASIER EX POST FACTO 01:06:24.146 --> 01:06:27.383 TO SAY WE KNEW THESE KINDS OF THINGS WERE GOING ON, 01:06:27.383 --> 01:06:30.519 BUT AT THE TIME I WAS AMBASSADOR AT THE UNITED NATIONS, 01:06:30.519 --> 01:06:36.725 AND I CAN TELL YOU THAT THE INFORMATION WAS NOT THERE. 01:06:36.725 --> 01:06:39.528 Goldhagen: I DON'T KNOW WHAT KIND OF INFORMATION ALBRIGHT NEEDED, 01:06:39.528 --> 01:06:42.064 BUT EVEN MORE THAN DURING THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE, 01:06:42.064 --> 01:06:44.266 INFORMATION ABOUT THE RWANDAN GENOCIDE 01:06:44.266 --> 01:06:48.671 WAS AVAILABLE TO ANYONE WITH ACCESS TO TV OR NEWSPAPER, 01:06:48.671 --> 01:06:50.739 AS THERE WERE MULTIPLE SOURCES OF INFORMATION 01:06:50.739 --> 01:06:52.474 COMING STRAIGHT FROM RWANDA, 01:06:52.474 --> 01:06:56.879 WHERE EVERYONE KNEW. 01:06:56.879 --> 01:06:59.815 AS SOON AS THE KILLING BEGAN, MANY TUTSI, 01:06:59.815 --> 01:07:01.550 INCLUDING EMMANUEL GATARI, 01:07:01.550 --> 01:07:03.686 MADE THEIR WAY TO A TECHNICAL SCHOOL, 01:07:03.686 --> 01:07:54.470 WHICH WAS BEING PROTECTED BY U.N. PEACEKEEPERS. 01:07:54.470 --> 01:07:58.440 AS THE LIVES OF EMMANUEL AND THE OTHERS WITH HIM HUNG IN THE BALANCE, 01:07:58.440 --> 01:08:00.042 THE U.S. AND OTHER FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS 01:08:00.042 --> 01:08:25.033 BEGAN TO EVACUATE THEIR CITIZENS FROM RWANDA. 01:08:25.033 --> 01:08:48.657 [EMMANUEL SPEAKING NATIVE LANGUAGE] 01:08:48.657 --> 01:08:52.795 [MACHINEGUNS FIRING] 01:08:52.795 --> 01:08:56.865 Karugarama: AND THERE WERE SO MANY PEOPLE HAD RUN TO THE U.N. 01:08:56.865 --> 01:09:00.169 FOR SECURITY, FOR PROTECTION, 01:09:00.169 --> 01:09:02.838 AND THEY WITHDREW AND LEFT THEM THERE 01:09:02.838 --> 01:09:13.382 TO BE MASSACRED IN COLD BLOOD. 01:09:13.382 --> 01:09:18.020 THIS IS REALLY SOMETHING THAT THE U.N. 01:09:18.020 --> 01:09:20.055 SHOULD BE ABLE TO EXPLAIN. 01:09:20.055 --> 01:09:24.159 HOW DO YOU WITHDRAW PEOPLE WHO ARE SUPPOSED TO PROTECT PEOPLE 01:09:24.159 --> 01:09:27.029 AT A TIME THAT IS SO CRITICAL, 01:09:27.029 --> 01:10:53.782 AT A TIME WHEN YOU SEE THE KILLINGS HAD ALREADY STARTED? 01:10:53.782 --> 01:10:56.151 Goldhagen: A LACK OF INFORMATION IS NOT THE REASON 01:10:56.151 --> 01:10:59.621 WORLD LEADERS FAIL TO INTERVENE TO STOP GENOCIDES. 01:10:59.621 --> 01:11:05.761 THE PROBLEM IS A LACK OF WILL. 01:11:05.761 --> 01:11:09.097 FOR MORE THAN HALF A CENTURY, PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD 01:11:09.097 --> 01:11:12.167 HAVE EXPECTED THE MEN AND WOMEN HERE AT THE UNITED NATIONS 01:11:12.167 --> 01:11:15.170 TO PROTECT THEM, 01:11:15.170 --> 01:11:20.275 AND TIME AND AGAIN, THE U.N. HAS LET THOSE PEOPLE DOWN. 01:11:20.275 --> 01:11:23.545 I LOOK AROUND AT THE MANY STATES HERE THAT HAVE TERRORIZED, 01:11:23.545 --> 01:11:26.782 OPPRESSED, AND ELIMINATED THEIR OWN PEOPLE, 01:11:26.782 --> 01:11:30.352 AND I THINK, "WHY WOULD ANYONE LOOK TO THIS BODY 01:11:30.352 --> 01:11:36.358 TO COMBAT THESE EVILS AROUND THE WORLD?" 01:11:36.358 --> 01:11:39.094 IN 1948, THE UNITED NATIONS ADOPTED 01:11:39.094 --> 01:11:42.931 AN ANTIGENOCIDE CONVENTION THAT LEGALLY DEFINED GENOCIDE 01:11:42.931 --> 01:11:45.100 AND AUTHORIZED ITS MEMBER STATES 01:11:45.100 --> 01:11:49.104 TO STOP AND PUNISH ACTS OF MASS MURDER. 01:11:49.104 --> 01:11:53.141 THE DOCUMENT IS NOBLE-SOUNDING BUT TOTALLY INEFFECTIVE. 01:11:53.141 --> 01:11:55.310 IT HAS NEVER ONCE BEEN INVOKED TO PREVENT THE DEATH 01:11:55.310 --> 01:12:00.048 OF A SINGLE PERSON. 01:12:00.048 --> 01:12:02.584 THERE'S A FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM HERE. 01:12:02.584 --> 01:12:06.088 THE U.N. EXISTS LARGELY TO PROTECT STATE SOVEREIGNTY, 01:12:06.088 --> 01:12:08.523 A STATE'S RIGHT TO BE IMMUNE FROM OTHER COUNTRIES 01:12:08.523 --> 01:12:11.927 INTERVENING IN ITS INTERNAL AFFAIRS. 01:12:11.927 --> 01:12:15.163 SO HOW CAN WE EXPECT TO ALSO PROMOTE INTERVENTION 01:12:15.163 --> 01:12:16.832 WHEN A SOVEREIGN STATE AND ITS PEOPLE 01:12:16.832 --> 01:12:22.004 ARE ELIMINATING, KILLING, RAPING, AND EXPELLING GROUPS OF ITS OWN CITIZENS? 01:12:22.004 --> 01:12:24.539 Man: I DON'T SEE SOVEREIGNTY NEGATIVELY 01:12:24.539 --> 01:12:27.175 AS A CONCEPT OF BARRICADING YOURSELF AGAINST THE WORLD 01:12:27.175 --> 01:12:28.810 WHILE YOUR PEOPLE ARE SUFFERING. 01:12:28.810 --> 01:12:31.913 I SEE IT AS A POSITIVE CONCEPT 01:12:31.913 --> 01:12:34.616 OF THE STATE DISCHARGING ITS RESPONSIBILITIES 01:12:34.616 --> 01:12:36.318 TOWARDS ITS OWN CITIZENS, 01:12:36.318 --> 01:12:39.021 PROVIDING THEM WITH PROTECTION AND ASSISTANCE, 01:12:39.021 --> 01:12:42.624 AND IF FOR LACK OF CAPACITY, YOU CANNOT DO IT, 01:12:42.624 --> 01:12:45.494 CALL ON THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY TO COME AND HELP YOU 01:12:45.494 --> 01:12:47.963 DO WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY IN THE FIRST PLACE. 01:12:47.963 --> 01:12:51.266 YOU KNOW, I APPLAUD WHAT YOU DO, AND I AGREE, 01:12:51.266 --> 01:12:53.368 AND I ALSO VERY MUCH LIKE 01:12:53.368 --> 01:12:55.670 RECONCEPTUALIZING CONCEPTS THE WAY YOU HAVE 01:12:55.670 --> 01:12:57.939 WITH SOVEREIGNTY, BUT YOU'RE 01:12:57.939 --> 01:12:59.307 IN A MINORITY THERE, AS YOU WELL KNOW... 01:12:59.307 --> 01:13:00.342 ABSOLUTELY. 01:13:00.342 --> 01:13:02.544 AND EVEN IN THIS HALL IN PARTICULAR, 01:13:02.544 --> 01:13:03.812 YOU WOULD BE IN A MINORITY 01:13:03.812 --> 01:13:06.448 IF YOU WERE TO STAND UP AND TO GIVE AND SPEECH HERE, 01:13:06.448 --> 01:13:09.818 AND IT SEEMS TO ME THAT SOVEREIGNTY 01:13:09.818 --> 01:13:11.553 IS AN IMPORTANT PRINCIPLE, 01:13:11.553 --> 01:13:15.157 BUT WE SHOULD MAKE CLEAR THAT IT DOES NOT GO SO FAR 01:13:15.157 --> 01:13:18.860 AS TO ALLOW GOVERNMENTS TO SLAUGHTER THEIR PEOPLE 01:13:18.860 --> 01:13:22.798 AND THAT THAT IN ITSELF, THOSE ACTS IN ITSELF ABRIDGE SOVEREIGNTY. 01:13:22.798 --> 01:13:25.100 AND IF YOU DO NOT DISCHARGE YOUR RESPONSIBILITY 01:13:25.100 --> 01:13:28.370 AND YOU DON'T WELCOME HELP, YOU HAVE NO WILL, 01:13:28.370 --> 01:13:30.405 WE WILL TAKE OTHER MEASURES. 01:13:30.405 --> 01:13:35.077 AND THESE OTHER MEASURES WE NEED TO DEVELOP TO BE A CREDIBLE THREAT, 01:13:35.077 --> 01:13:39.614 BUT MEANWHILE, I'M JUST DOING WHAT IS IN MY CAPACITY TO DO. 01:13:39.614 --> 01:13:41.450 AND YOU'RE DOING IT WELL. 01:13:41.450 --> 01:13:44.252 Goldhagen, voice-over: THERE ARE WELL-MEANING PEOPLE HERE TO BE SURE, 01:13:44.252 --> 01:13:46.254 BUT I'M AFRAID THEY'RE PART OF AN INSTITUTION 01:13:46.254 --> 01:13:49.458 THAT IS SET UP TO FAIL. 01:13:49.458 --> 01:13:51.059 THE U.N. IS NOT THE SOLUTION, 01:13:51.059 --> 01:13:53.228 AS ITS APPALLING RECORD SHOWS, 01:13:53.228 --> 01:13:55.130 BUT I DO THINK WE CAN DESIGN A SYSTEM 01:13:55.130 --> 01:14:00.068 THAT WILL EFFECTIVELY STOP OR PREVENT FUTURE GENOCIDES. 01:14:00.068 --> 01:14:05.407 THE FIRST COMPONENT MUST BE SWIFT DIPLOMATIC INTERVENTION. 01:14:05.407 --> 01:14:09.878 A RECENT EPISODE HERE IN KENYA MAY OFFER A PROMISING MODEL FOR THE FUTURE. 01:14:09.878 --> 01:14:12.681 Man: WHAT WAS ONCE ONE OF AFRICA'S MOST STABLE DEMOCRACIES 01:14:12.681 --> 01:14:15.917 IS RIGHT NOW ONE OF THE MOST VIOLENT PLACES IN THE WORLD. 01:14:15.917 --> 01:14:19.321 EXTREME CHAOS FOLLOWING A DISPUTED ELECTION IN KENYA, 01:14:19.321 --> 01:14:21.256 MOBS TORCHING A CHURCH WITH HUNDREDS 01:14:21.256 --> 01:14:22.958 OF REFUGEES INSIDE. 01:14:22.958 --> 01:14:25.527 WITNESSES SAY DOZENS OF PEOPLE, INCLUDING CHILDREN, 01:14:25.527 --> 01:14:28.597 WERE BURNED ALIVE OR HACKED TO DEATH WITH MACHETES, 01:14:28.597 --> 01:14:31.099 AND THERE ARE NEW FEARS TODAY THAT KENYA IS IN DANGER 01:14:31.099 --> 01:14:37.005 OF BECOMING THE NEXT RWANDA. 01:14:37.005 --> 01:14:40.142 Goldhagen: IN JANUARY 2008, A SPATE OF KILLINGS 01:14:40.142 --> 01:14:44.646 FOLLOWED THE REELECTION OF KENYAN PRESIDENT MWAI KIBAKI. 01:14:44.646 --> 01:14:46.648 Man: CLEARLY, I THINK, THE IMMEDIATE TRIGGER 01:14:46.648 --> 01:14:50.252 FOR THAT VIOLENCE WAS THE DISPUTED ELECTION RESULTS THAT HAPPENED, 01:14:50.252 --> 01:14:52.154 BUT BEYOND THAT, I THINK THERE WERE ALSO 01:14:52.154 --> 01:14:54.656 OTHER UNDERLYING ISSUES THAT CAME TO THE FORE, 01:14:54.656 --> 01:14:57.626 ISSUES OF DISCONTENTMENT, ISSUES OF MARGINALIZATION, 01:14:57.626 --> 01:15:00.061 RIFTS BETWEEN ETHNIC GROUPS IN THE COUNTRY, 01:15:00.061 --> 01:15:02.564 ISSUES OF LAND, ISSUES OF HISTORICAL INJUSTICES. 01:15:02.564 --> 01:15:04.900 SO ALL THESE THINGS CAME UP TOGETHER, 01:15:04.900 --> 01:15:06.801 AND I THINK THAT THE ELECTION RESULTS, 01:15:06.801 --> 01:15:08.403 THE WAY IT WAS HANDLED, THE PROCESS, 01:15:08.403 --> 01:15:10.038 WAS REALLY LIKE THE MATCH THAT WAS THROWN 01:15:10.038 --> 01:15:11.072 INTO A BARREL OF OIL. 01:15:11.072 --> 01:15:14.376 [SINGING IN NATIVE LANGUAGE] 01:15:14.376 --> 01:15:17.879 Goldhagen: IN THE RIFT VALLEY, MEMBERS OF THE PRESIDENT'S TRIBE, THE KIKUYU, 01:15:17.879 --> 01:15:19.414 WERE TARGETED. 01:15:19.414 --> 01:15:21.616 1,500 OR MORE WERE KILLED, 01:15:21.616 --> 01:15:31.960 HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS WERE EXPELLED FROM THEIR HOMES. 01:15:31.960 --> 01:15:34.496 IF THE KIKUYU HAD TRIED TO HOLD THEIR GROUND, 01:15:34.496 --> 01:15:36.498 WOULD THE VIOLENCE HAVE ESCALATED 01:15:36.498 --> 01:15:38.433 TO PRODUCE DEATHS ON A MASSIVE SCALE? 01:15:38.433 --> 01:15:40.635 ABSOLUTELY. I THINK THE KILLINGS 01:15:40.635 --> 01:15:42.103 WOULD HAVE DEFINITELY INCREASED. 01:15:42.103 --> 01:15:46.241 I THINK IT WOULD HAVE DRAWN IN, ALSO, MORE COMMUNITIES. 01:15:46.241 --> 01:15:51.680 Goldhagen: WITHIN DAYS, FORMER U.N. SECRETARY GENERAL KOFI ANNAN HAD FLOWN TO NAIROBI 01:15:51.680 --> 01:15:55.150 ALONG WITH REPRESENTATIVES OF OTHER AFRICAN COUNTRIES. 01:15:55.150 --> 01:16:00.722 I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT THAT ALL KENYANS 01:16:00.722 --> 01:16:05.393 RESPOND WITH SYMPATHY AND UNDERSTANDING 01:16:05.393 --> 01:16:07.495 AND NOT TRY TO REVENGE. 01:16:07.495 --> 01:16:10.665 Goldhagen: THE U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE CONDOLEEZZA RICE ARRIVED 01:16:10.665 --> 01:16:12.067 SOON AFTER. 01:16:12.067 --> 01:16:14.135 THEY CAME TO MEDIATE, TO PRESSURE, 01:16:14.135 --> 01:16:15.737 AND WITH THREATS OF SANCTIONS. 01:16:15.737 --> 01:16:17.505 Kiai: I DON'T THINK I'VE EVER SEEN IN AFRICA 01:16:17.505 --> 01:16:20.609 SUCH INTENSE INTERNATIONAL ENGAGEMENT ON AN ISSUE, 01:16:20.609 --> 01:16:23.245 AND THAT REALLY HELPED. 01:16:23.245 --> 01:16:25.814 Goldhagen: THE LONG-TERM EFFECTS OF THE DIPLOMATIC INTERVENTION 01:16:25.814 --> 01:16:28.116 IN KENYA REMAIN TO BE SEEN. 01:16:28.116 --> 01:16:29.651 THE VIOLENCE STOPPED, 01:16:29.651 --> 01:16:31.386 BUT THE RACISTS AND POLITICAL ROOTS 01:16:31.386 --> 01:16:33.121 OF THE CONFLICT RUN DEEP, 01:16:33.121 --> 01:16:35.190 AND KENYAN POLITICAL LEADERS COULD START UP 01:16:35.190 --> 01:16:37.192 THE VIOLENCE AGAIN, 01:16:37.192 --> 01:16:39.461 BUT THE IMMEDIATE RESPONSE OF WORLD LEADERS 01:16:39.461 --> 01:16:43.031 WAS A POWERFUL STATEMENT AND THE KIND OF RAPID REACTION 01:16:43.031 --> 01:16:49.004 THAT COULD SAVE MANY LIVES IN THE FUTURE. 01:16:49.004 --> 01:16:52.274 DIPLOMACY OF COURSE DOES NOT ALWAYS WORK. 01:16:52.274 --> 01:16:54.576 Christiane Amanpour: THE U.N. IS ACCUSING THE SUDANESE GOVERNMENT 01:16:54.576 --> 01:16:58.980 OF RESUMING BOMBING RAIDS AGAINST REBELS IN SOUTH DARFUR, 01:16:58.980 --> 01:17:02.250 AND IT ALSO SAYS THAT DISPLACED VILLAGERS LIKE THESE 01:17:02.250 --> 01:17:07.022 ARE STILL BEING ATTACKED BY JANJAWEED MILITIA. 01:17:07.022 --> 01:17:08.723 Goldhagen: WHEN THE SUDANESE GOVERNMENT WAS MURDERING 01:17:08.723 --> 01:17:11.526 ITS OWN PEOPLE IN THE WESTERN REGION OF DARFUR, 01:17:11.526 --> 01:17:16.831 WORLD LEADERS SENT ENVOYS TO KHARTOUM. 01:17:16.831 --> 01:17:33.481 BUT THE OIL-RICH REGIME CARES LITTLE ABOUT WORLD OPINION. 01:17:33.481 --> 01:17:34.849 THEY CONTINUE TO KILL, 01:17:34.849 --> 01:17:41.589 AND THE WORLD HAS DONE NOTHING MEANINGFUL TO STOP THEM. 01:17:41.589 --> 01:17:44.025 WE NEED TO STOP PROVING TO POLITICAL LEADERS 01:17:44.025 --> 01:17:48.096 THAT WE WILL STAND BY AS THEY SLAUGHTER THEIR OWN PEOPLE. 01:17:48.096 --> 01:17:51.333 IF DIPLOMACY FAILS, COUNTRIES COMMITTING MASS ELIMINATIONS 01:17:51.333 --> 01:17:54.569 SUCH AS SUDAN HAVE TO BE KICKED OUT OF THE U.N. 01:17:54.569 --> 01:17:57.439 AND ALL INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS, 01:17:57.439 --> 01:18:00.675 AND ALL TRADE MUST BE CUT OFF. 01:18:00.675 --> 01:18:03.411 LEADERS THAT CONTINUE TO KILL MUST KNOW THAT WE WILL 01:18:03.411 --> 01:18:10.485 SWIFTLY AND FORCEFULLY DESTROY THEIR MILITARY CAPABILITY. 01:18:10.485 --> 01:18:13.421 Felde: SOME PEOPLE HAVE TALKED ABOUT SOME KIND OF RAPID RESPONSE FORCE. 01:18:13.421 --> 01:18:16.157 I WOULD OF COURSE BE FOR INTERVENTION, 01:18:16.157 --> 01:18:19.027 MILITARY INTERVENTION WHEN PEOPLE ARE BEING SLAUGHTERED. 01:18:19.027 --> 01:18:21.529 IT SEEMS QUITE OBVIOUS THAT HAVING SOME KIND OF FORCE 01:18:21.529 --> 01:18:24.232 THAT COULD INTERVENE RAPIDLY AND EFFECTIVELY 01:18:24.232 --> 01:18:26.067 IN MANY OF THE COUNTRIES WHERE IT DOESN'T TAKE 01:18:26.067 --> 01:18:28.036 A GREAT DEAL OF FORCE TO STOP THESE THINGS 01:18:28.036 --> 01:18:31.039 IS AN ABSOLUTE MORAL AND POLITICAL NECESSITY. 01:18:31.039 --> 01:18:36.177 SOME WOULD SAY THAT IF WE'RE GOING TO INTERVENE MILITARILY IN DARFUR 01:18:36.177 --> 01:18:37.345 WHAT ABOUT CONGO? 01:18:37.345 --> 01:18:38.513 CERTAINLY, MORE PEOPLE HAVE DIED THERE 01:18:38.513 --> 01:18:39.714 IN THE PAST 10 YEARS. 01:18:39.714 --> 01:18:41.483 SO PERHAPS THEN YOU'RE SUGGESTING 01:18:41.483 --> 01:18:43.351 WE SHOULD INTERVENE THERE, AS WELL. 01:18:43.351 --> 01:18:47.055 THESE KINDS OF ARGUMENTS I ALSO FIND UNPERSUASIVE. 01:18:47.055 --> 01:18:49.357 IT IS QUITE TRUE THAT THE UNITED STATES IS NOT 01:18:49.357 --> 01:18:50.492 THE POLICEMAN OF THE WORLD, 01:18:50.492 --> 01:18:51.893 EVEN THOUGH IT IS THE GUARANTOR 01:18:51.893 --> 01:18:53.661 OF MUCH OF ORDER IN THE WORLD. 01:18:53.661 --> 01:18:55.864 IT REMAINS THAT, BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN 01:18:55.864 --> 01:18:57.599 THAT IF INTERVENING IN DARFUR IS 01:18:57.599 --> 01:18:59.768 THE RIGHT THING TO DO TO SAVE LIVES 01:18:59.768 --> 01:19:02.570 THAT WE SHOULD NOT DO IT BECAUSE WE CAN'T INTERVENE EVERYWHERE. 01:19:02.570 --> 01:19:06.174 I DON'T FIND THE ARGUMENTS AGAIN PERSUASIVE THAT, 01:19:06.174 --> 01:19:09.310 WELL, YOU SHOULDN'T DO SOMETHING BECAUSE YOU CAN'T DO EVERYTHING. 01:19:09.310 --> 01:19:12.180 OUR PROBLEM IS THAT WE DO LITTLE OR NOTHING AT ALL. 01:19:12.180 --> 01:19:13.882 Silajdzic: THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY MUST HAVE 01:19:13.882 --> 01:19:19.821 A MECHANISM THAT WILL QUICKLY REACT TO GENOCIDE. 01:19:19.821 --> 01:19:21.389 THERE IS NO WAITING THERE, 01:19:21.389 --> 01:19:23.892 THERE IS NO OTHER CONSIDERATION. 01:19:23.892 --> 01:19:25.960 HUMAN LIFE MUST BE SAVED. 01:19:25.960 --> 01:19:27.862 WE MUST ALL AGREE TO THIS. 01:19:27.862 --> 01:19:29.864 IF THERE IS MASS KILLING SOMEWHERE, 01:19:29.864 --> 01:19:32.167 THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY HAS THE RIGHT 01:19:32.167 --> 01:19:37.205 TO INTERVENE. 01:19:37.205 --> 01:19:40.642 YOU KNOW, WHEN IT BECOMES TOO LATE, IT'S TOO LATE. 01:19:40.642 --> 01:19:43.178 Man: IN MANY INSTANCES, DIPLOMATIC EFFORTS 01:19:43.178 --> 01:19:44.879 ARE GONNA BE UNSUCCESSFUL, 01:19:44.879 --> 01:19:47.148 PARTICULARLY ONCE THE KILLING STARTS. 01:19:47.148 --> 01:19:48.783 THE ONLY WAY YOU ARE GONNA STOP THAT 01:19:48.783 --> 01:19:50.652 IS THROUGH THE USE OF MILITARY FORCE, 01:19:50.652 --> 01:19:52.687 BUT IT'S GONNA BE VERY DIFFICULT 01:19:52.687 --> 01:19:57.091 TO GET A WIDE CONSORTIUM OF COUNTRIES TO AGREE 01:19:57.091 --> 01:19:58.293 THAT THERE'S AN AUTOMATIC TRIGGER 01:19:58.293 --> 01:20:00.128 FOR MILITARY INTERVENTION. 01:20:00.128 --> 01:20:04.065 IN DARFUR, YOU NEED AFRICAN GOVERNMENTS ON BOARD, 01:20:04.065 --> 01:20:06.267 YOU NEED MIDDLE EASTERN GOVERNMENTS ON BOARD. 01:20:06.267 --> 01:20:07.902 THIS HAS PROVED VERY DIFFICULT TO ACCOMPLISH. 01:20:07.902 --> 01:20:11.206 YOU KNOW, I'M NOT A DIPLOMAT, AND I SAY WHY? 01:20:11.206 --> 01:20:12.740 WHY DO WE NEED THEM ON BOARD? 01:20:12.740 --> 01:20:17.745 I MEAN, YOU HAVE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE BEING SLAUGHTERED. 01:20:17.745 --> 01:20:20.281 WHY DO WE NEED TO GET MIDDLE EASTERN GOVERNMENTS 01:20:20.281 --> 01:20:21.549 OR AFRICAN GOVERNMENTS ON BOARD? 01:20:21.549 --> 01:20:23.985 WHY NOT CREATE A NO-FLY ZONE, 01:20:23.985 --> 01:20:26.020 WHY NOT BOMB THEIR MILITARY INSTALLATIONS? 01:20:26.020 --> 01:20:27.689 FORGET ABOUT THE DIPLOMACY FOR A MINUTE. 01:20:27.689 --> 01:20:31.926 WOULD IT BE EFFECTIVE, AND THEN HOW DO WE WEIGH IF IT WOULD BE 01:20:31.926 --> 01:20:34.863 THE MORALITY OF IT VERSUS THE DIPLOMACY OF IT? 01:20:34.863 --> 01:20:37.298 FROM THE MORAL PERSPECTIVE, YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. 01:20:37.298 --> 01:20:38.733 I MEAN, WE DO HAVE A MORAL OBLIGATION. 01:20:38.733 --> 01:20:41.736 IF WE'RE IN A POSITION TO ACT 01:20:41.736 --> 01:20:44.772 AND WE HAVE THE ACTUAL CAPABILITY TO DO SO, 01:20:44.772 --> 01:20:46.274 THEN I THINK WE SHOULD, 01:20:46.274 --> 01:20:48.676 BUT IF YOU HAVE A SITUATION WHERE YOU'RE 01:20:48.676 --> 01:20:51.946 NOT ABLE TO GET SUPPORT OF OTHER GOVERNMENTS, 01:20:51.946 --> 01:20:54.449 IT MAY BE COUNTERPRODUCTIVE. 01:20:54.449 --> 01:20:55.984 Goldhagen: GETTING THE SUPPORT OF OTHER GOVERNMENTS 01:20:55.984 --> 01:20:58.553 SOUNDS GOOD, BUT AS HARIS SILAJDZIC 01:20:58.553 --> 01:21:01.422 EXPERIENCED DURING THE DAYS OF THE BOSNIAN GENOCIDE, 01:21:01.422 --> 01:21:03.691 CONVINCING LEADERS TO INTERVENE MILITARILY 01:21:03.691 --> 01:21:05.727 IS EXTRAORDINARILY DIFFICULT. 01:21:05.727 --> 01:21:08.363 WHAT WAS IT LIKE FOR YOU TRYING TO MOBILIZE 01:21:08.363 --> 01:21:11.633 THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, THE POLITICAL LEADERS 01:21:11.633 --> 01:21:14.269 OF THE EUROPEAN COUNTRIES, OF THE UNITED STATES, 01:21:14.269 --> 01:21:17.639 THE U.N., AND SO ON TO DO SOMETHING? 01:21:17.639 --> 01:21:22.176 WELL, THAT IS VERY FRUSTRATING, THE POWERLESSNESS, 01:21:22.176 --> 01:21:23.745 VERY FRUSTRATING. 01:21:23.745 --> 01:21:25.880 IT'S HARD TO MOVE THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY 01:21:25.880 --> 01:21:27.549 TO REALLY DO SOMETHING. 01:21:27.549 --> 01:21:32.287 IT'S THE PHILOSOPHY OF, UH... 01:21:32.287 --> 01:21:35.657 THE LEAST RESISTANCE. 01:21:35.657 --> 01:21:40.595 "LET'S DO THE EASIEST THING IN THE WORLD, SO LET'S WAIT. 01:21:40.595 --> 01:21:45.500 MAYBE IT WILL GO AWAY." 01:21:45.500 --> 01:21:47.936 Goldhagen: AS WE HAVE SEEN TIME AND AGAIN, 01:21:47.936 --> 01:21:51.205 WHEN WE WAIT TO INTERVENE, PROBLEMS DON'T GO AWAY. 01:21:51.205 --> 01:22:00.682 THEY ONLY GET WORSE. 01:22:00.682 --> 01:22:02.850 THIS IS THE STORY OF ANOTHER MASS MURDER 01:22:02.850 --> 01:22:05.987 THAT DIDN'T HAVE TO HAPPEN. 01:22:05.987 --> 01:22:09.223 BY THE TIME IT DID, THE ELIMINATION OF BOSNIA'S MUSLIMS 01:22:09.223 --> 01:22:11.459 HAD BEEN GOING ON FOR 3 YEARS. 01:22:11.459 --> 01:22:14.362 THE OUTSIDE WORLD KNEW WHAT THE SERBS WERE UP TO, 01:22:14.362 --> 01:22:16.064 WE KNEW WE COULD STOP IT, 01:22:16.064 --> 01:22:21.536 AND DAY AFTER DAY, WE CHOSE NOT TO TAKE EFFECTIVE MEASURES. 01:22:21.536 --> 01:22:24.205 IN 1995, THE CITY OF SREBRENICA, 01:22:24.205 --> 01:22:28.443 DESIGNATED A SAFE HAVEN FOR BOSNIAN MUSLIMS BY THE UNITED NATIONS, 01:22:28.443 --> 01:22:31.679 FELL TO SERB FORCES. 01:22:31.679 --> 01:22:36.351 WITHIN DAYS, THE SERBS KILLED 8,000. 01:22:36.351 --> 01:22:39.354 EACH YEAR, SOME OF THE VICTIMS EXHUMED FROM MASS GRAVES 01:22:39.354 --> 01:22:42.690 ARE POSITIVELY IDENTIFIED AND GIVEN A PROPER BURIAL 01:22:42.690 --> 01:22:50.198 ON THE ANNIVERSARY OF THE MASSACRE. 01:22:50.198 --> 01:22:53.101 AS SREBRENICA FELL, THE MUSLIMS SOUGHT REFUGE 01:22:53.101 --> 01:22:56.037 SEVERAL MILES AWAY AT THIS FACTORY COMPLEX, 01:22:56.037 --> 01:22:57.572 WHICH SERVED AS THE HEADQUARTERS 01:22:57.572 --> 01:23:13.021 OF A SMALL U.N. PEACEKEEPING FORCE. 01:23:13.021 --> 01:23:15.456 Sudetic: YOU HAD 25,000 PEOPLE, 01:23:15.456 --> 01:23:20.228 MANY OF THEM ELDERLY, WOMEN, AND CHILDREN 01:23:20.228 --> 01:23:29.370 GATHERED IN THE YARD AROUND THIS BASE, SEEKING PROTECTION. 01:23:29.370 --> 01:23:33.341 AND I THINK AT THAT TIME THERE WERE APPROXIMATELY 300 DUTCH TROOPS THERE, 01:23:33.341 --> 01:23:35.043 FAR, FAR BELOW ANYTHING THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN 01:23:35.043 --> 01:23:38.212 A CREDIBLE DETERRENT TO ANY KIND 01:23:38.212 --> 01:23:57.865 OF MILITARY ACTION ON THE GROUND. 01:23:57.865 --> 01:23:59.834 Goldhagen: AFTER THEY CAPTURED SREBRENICA, 01:23:59.834 --> 01:24:05.740 SERB SOLDIERS UNDER THE COMMAND OF THE NOTORIOUS MASS MURDERER GENERAL RATKO MLADIC ARRIVED 01:24:05.740 --> 01:24:18.252 AT THE U.N. BASE TO DEAL WITH THE MUSLIM REFUGEES. 01:24:18.252 --> 01:24:20.688 [CHILDREN CRYING] 01:24:20.688 --> 01:24:22.690 Sudetic: AFTER A NIGHT OF TERROR, 01:24:22.690 --> 01:24:24.892 THE SERBS ANNOUNCED THAT THEY WERE GOING TO BE 01:24:24.892 --> 01:24:30.298 TRANSPORTED TO FRIENDLY LINES IN BUSES, DON'T BE AFRAID. 01:24:30.298 --> 01:24:33.000 THEY BROUGHT COOKIES FOR CHILDREN. 01:24:33.000 --> 01:24:41.409 [SPEAKING NATIVE LANGUAGE] 01:24:41.409 --> 01:24:46.414 THE SERBS SEPARATE THE MILITARY AGE MEN. 01:24:46.414 --> 01:24:50.451 WHAT THAT MEANT WAS PRETTY MUCH ANYBODY 12 AND ABOVE TO ONE SIDE, 01:24:50.451 --> 01:24:53.121 AND THEN THE WOMEN AND CHILDREN AND THE OLDER PEOPLE 01:24:53.121 --> 01:26:41.128 TO THE OTHER. 01:26:41.128 --> 01:26:42.930 Goldhagen: THIS IS HOW EASY IT WOULD HAVE BEEN 01:26:42.930 --> 01:26:45.066 TO SAVE THE LIVES OF SABAHETA'S SON 01:26:45.066 --> 01:26:47.668 AND 8,000 OTHERS IN SREBRENICA. 01:26:47.668 --> 01:26:50.204 Woman: EARLY MORNING RAIDS OF MORE THAN 60 AIRCRAFT 01:26:50.204 --> 01:26:54.008 FROM AS MANY AS 5 NATIONS POUNDED AIR DEFENSE MISSILES... 01:26:54.008 --> 01:26:57.578 Goldhagen: IN AUGUST 1995, TWO MONTHS AFTER THE EXPULSION 01:26:57.578 --> 01:27:00.081 AND MASS MURDER IN SREBRENICA 01:27:00.081 --> 01:27:03.584 AND 3 YEARS AFTER THE GENOCIDE BEGAN, 01:27:03.584 --> 01:27:06.087 NATO FORCES BEGAN A BOMBING CAMPAIGN 01:27:06.087 --> 01:27:08.923 AGAINST SERBIAN MILITARY TARGETS. 01:27:08.923 --> 01:27:10.858 IN JUST 3 WEEKS, THE BOMBING CHANGED 01:27:10.858 --> 01:27:13.661 MILOSEVIC'S CALCULATIONS. 01:27:13.661 --> 01:27:16.163 IN SHORT ORDER, SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC WAS 01:27:16.163 --> 01:27:19.066 AT THE NEGOTIATING TABLE, DISCUSSING THE PEACE TREATY 01:27:19.066 --> 01:27:21.969 THAT WOULD END HIS DEPREDATIONS IN BOSNIA. 01:27:21.969 --> 01:27:24.839 THE BOSNIAN GENOCIDE WAS OVER. 01:27:24.839 --> 01:27:26.540 LET'S TURN THE CLOCK BACK. 01:27:26.540 --> 01:27:31.045 WHAT HAPPENS IF IN 1992 NATO STARTED TO BOMB 01:27:31.045 --> 01:27:33.781 AND NOT WAITED UNTIL 1995 TO DO SO? 01:27:33.781 --> 01:27:38.753 OH, THAT WOULD HAVE STOPPED EVERYTHING DEFINITELY. 01:27:38.753 --> 01:27:42.356 WE WOULD HAVE SAVED THE LIVES OF 100,000 PEOPLE? 01:27:42.356 --> 01:27:44.492 NOT ONLY THAT. THE CREDIBILITY 01:27:44.492 --> 01:27:46.427 OF THE INTERNATIONAL ORDER, 01:27:46.427 --> 01:27:49.363 THE CREDIBILITY OF JUSTICE, 01:27:49.363 --> 01:27:52.566 THE CREDIBILITY OF HUMANITY. 01:27:52.566 --> 01:28:10.751 THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN SAVED. 01:28:10.751 --> 01:28:12.386 Goldhagen: THE PERPETRATORS OF ELIMINATION 01:28:12.386 --> 01:28:16.557 ALMOST ALWAYS ACT WITH TOTAL IMPUNITY. 01:28:16.557 --> 01:28:22.463 HERE IN GUATEMALA, A GENOCIDAL MASTERMIND WALKS FREELY. 01:28:22.463 --> 01:28:28.069 IN FACT, HE CONTINUES TO SERVE IN THE COUNTRY'S CONGRESS. 01:28:28.069 --> 01:28:31.339 [SPEAKS SPANISH] 01:28:31.339 --> 01:28:34.208 Goldhagen, voice-over: AT THE TIME THIS KILLER COMMITTED HIS CRIMES, 01:28:34.208 --> 01:28:36.811 HE BELIEVED HE WOULD GET AWAY WITH MURDER. 01:28:36.811 --> 01:28:57.298 SO FAR, HE'S BEEN PROVEN RIGHT. 01:28:57.298 --> 01:28:59.967 JOSÉ EFRAÍN RÍOS MONTT LED THIS COUNTRY 01:28:59.967 --> 01:29:02.670 FOR NEARLY TWO TERRIFYING YEARS, 01:29:02.670 --> 01:29:05.539 DURING WHICH HE WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR A WIDESPREAD CAMPAIGN 01:29:05.539 --> 01:29:10.711 OF TERROR AND SLAUGHTER. 01:29:10.711 --> 01:29:13.848 I WANTED TO GET A LOOK AT THIS MAN IN PERSON, 01:29:13.848 --> 01:29:16.017 AND I HOPED OTILIA LUX DE COTI 01:29:16.017 --> 01:29:17.852 A MEMBER OF GUATEMALA'S CONGRESS, 01:29:17.852 --> 01:29:18.919 WOULD HELP. 01:29:18.919 --> 01:29:56.757 HI. NICE TO MEET YOU. 01:29:56.757 --> 01:30:01.695 Doyle: THE RÍOS MONTT PLAN FOR 1982 WAS CALLED VICTORIA. 01:30:01.695 --> 01:30:06.367 THESE ARE PLANS THAT LAY OUT THE BROAD STRATEGY 01:30:06.367 --> 01:30:09.403 OF HOW THE ARMY WAS GOING TO DESTROY COMMUNISM 01:30:09.403 --> 01:30:11.405 AND WIPE OUT THE GUERRILLAS, 01:30:11.405 --> 01:30:14.141 AND THE PLANS ARE VERY EXPLICIT ABOUT THE NEED 01:30:14.141 --> 01:30:19.580 TO GO INTO THE MAYAN COMMUNITIES AND DESTROY THEM. 01:30:19.580 --> 01:30:22.016 THEY CONTAIN OPERATIONAL ORDERS 01:30:22.016 --> 01:30:23.184 TO GO INTO CERTAIN VILLAGES, 01:30:23.184 --> 01:30:25.953 WHICH WERE, IN FACT, MASSACRED AND RAZED, 01:30:25.953 --> 01:30:30.958 AND AFTER ACTION REPORTS IN WHICH THE COMMANDERS OF THOSE UNITS SAY, 01:30:30.958 --> 01:30:33.694 "DUTY DONE. WE'VE, UH--WE'VE 01:30:33.694 --> 01:30:35.229 "COMPLETED THE OPERATION, 01:30:35.229 --> 01:30:37.431 AND THE VILLAGE IS"-- 01:30:37.431 --> 01:30:40.801 UM, WHAT ARE SOME OF THE WORDS THEY USED? 01:30:40.801 --> 01:30:42.369 "ELIMINATED." "THE VILLAGE IS ELIMINATED. 01:30:42.369 --> 01:30:44.605 THE VILLAGE IS NEUTRALIZED." 01:30:44.605 --> 01:30:47.007 [SPEAKING SPANISH] 01:30:47.007 --> 01:30:48.943 Goldhagen: OTILIA LUX DE COTI IS TAKING ME 01:30:48.943 --> 01:30:50.778 INTO THE HALLS OF CONGRESS, 01:30:50.778 --> 01:30:55.749 WHERE THE FORMER DICTATOR MAINTAINS A POWERFUL PRESENCE. 01:30:55.749 --> 01:30:57.718 IN THE ROUGH AND TUMBLE OF POLITICS, 01:30:57.718 --> 01:30:59.553 THE CONGRESSWOMAN WORKS SIDE BY SIDE 01:30:59.553 --> 01:31:01.589 WITH THE MAN RESPONSIBLE FOR THE MURDER 01:31:01.589 --> 01:31:17.872 OF NEARLY 200,000 OF HER PEOPLE. 01:31:17.872 --> 01:31:21.075 SEEING RÍOS MONTT IN THIS SETTING IS SURREAL. 01:31:21.075 --> 01:31:25.679 IT'S LIKE ENCOUNTERING HITLER IN THE BUNDESTAG. 01:31:25.679 --> 01:31:29.383 I HAVE STUDIED MASS MURDERERS FOR MORE THAN 3 DECADES, 01:31:29.383 --> 01:31:31.752 BUT IT NEVER OCCURRED TO ME THAT I MIGHT ONE DAY STAND 01:31:31.752 --> 01:31:37.124 BEFORE A GENOCIDAL MASTERMIND FACE TO FACE. 01:31:37.124 --> 01:31:45.399 [SPEAKING SPANISH] 01:31:45.399 --> 01:31:47.401 MAY I ASK YOU A QUESTION? 01:31:47.401 --> 01:31:49.637 WAS THERE GENOCIDE IN GUATEMALA, AND WERE YOU RESPONSIBLE? 01:31:49.637 --> 01:32:11.192 [SPEAKING SPANISH] 01:32:11.192 --> 01:32:23.137 [SPEAKING SPANISH] 01:32:23.137 --> 01:32:26.974 THE U.N. LAWS AND INTERNATIONAL CODES 01:32:26.974 --> 01:32:31.845 HAVE A CONCEPT FOR GENOCIDE. 01:32:31.845 --> 01:32:36.784 IT'S CLEARLY DEFINED. 01:32:36.784 --> 01:32:41.889 WHEN YOU'RE GOING TO ELIMINATE AN ETHNICAL GROUP... 01:32:41.889 --> 01:32:45.359 WHEN YOU'RE GOING TO ELIMINATE A RELIGIOUS GROUP... 01:32:45.359 --> 01:32:55.736 OR A SPECIFIC GROUP OF PEOPLE. 01:32:55.736 --> 01:32:58.806 THE DEFINITION CLEARLY STATES IT'S ELIMINATING SOMETHING. 01:32:58.806 --> 01:33:02.910 THE DEFINITION STATES, ELIMINATING IN WHOLE OR IN PART 01:33:02.910 --> 01:33:16.523 AN ETHNIC GROUP, WHICH THE MAYAN PEOPLE WERE. 01:33:16.523 --> 01:33:18.225 HE AGREES WITH THAT. 01:33:18.225 --> 01:33:24.798 AND SO WERE YOU RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS? 01:33:24.798 --> 01:33:29.136 HE WOULD BE IN JAIL IF HE WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT. 01:33:29.136 --> 01:33:30.971 Goldhagen, voice-over: I DON'T KNOW WHAT I WAS EXPECTING 01:33:30.971 --> 01:33:33.073 BUT NOT THIS. 01:33:33.073 --> 01:33:36.176 THE FORMER DICTATOR WAS EVASIVE AND COMBATIVE, 01:33:36.176 --> 01:33:37.911 BUT REMARKABLY, HE STAYED TO TALK 01:33:37.911 --> 01:33:39.880 FOR MORE THAN 20 MINUTES. 01:33:39.880 --> 01:33:41.615 DO YOU ACCEPT THE HISTORICAL COMMISSION'S FINDING 01:33:41.615 --> 01:33:45.352 THAT 200,000 INDIGENOUS MAYANS WERE KILLED 01:33:45.352 --> 01:33:59.066 WHILE YOU WERE PRESIDENT BY YOUR MILITARY? 01:33:59.066 --> 01:34:00.501 HE SAID THAT YOU SHOULD TAKE PROOF 01:34:00.501 --> 01:34:06.240 AND CONVINCE HIM IN A COURT OF LAW. 01:34:06.240 --> 01:34:08.275 STARING INTO THE EYES OF THIS KILLER, 01:34:08.275 --> 01:34:12.279 I FEEL OUTRAGE AND DISGUST, 01:34:12.279 --> 01:34:14.715 BUT MORE THAN ANYTHING, I AM REMINDED 01:34:14.715 --> 01:34:17.551 THAT ALL OF THIS COMES DOWN TO A CHOICE. 01:34:17.551 --> 01:34:21.388 MORE THAN 25 YEARS AGO AS THE POLITICAL LEADER OF HIS COUNTRY, 01:34:21.388 --> 01:34:23.991 THIS MAN CONSIDERED HIS POLITICAL GOALS, 01:34:23.991 --> 01:34:27.728 WEIGHED HIS OPTIONS, DECIDED HE COULD GET AWAY WITH IT, 01:34:27.728 --> 01:34:30.831 AND MADE A CALCULATED DECISION TO MURDER AND EXPEL 01:34:30.831 --> 01:34:34.468 HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF HIS COUNTRY'S PEOPLE. 01:34:34.468 --> 01:34:39.740 THE QUESTION IS CAN WE GET FUTURE LEADERS TO MAKE A DIFFERENT DECISION? 01:34:39.740 --> 01:34:47.247 I THINK WE CAN. 01:34:47.247 --> 01:34:48.615 Woman: YOU KNOW, DANNY, YOU MIGHT BE SUGGESTING 01:34:48.615 --> 01:34:50.584 WE CAN PREVENT ONE OF THE FEW THINGS IN THE WORLD 01:34:50.584 --> 01:34:52.753 THAT PEOPLE SAY ARE UNSTOPPABLE 01:34:52.753 --> 01:34:55.322 OR THAT WE HAVEN'T SEEMED TO BE ABLE TO STOP. 01:34:55.322 --> 01:34:57.591 DO YOU THINK PEOPLE WILL JUST SAY, 01:34:57.591 --> 01:35:00.027 "COME ON, DANNY. THAT'S--THAT'S NOT GONNA HAPPEN. 01:35:00.027 --> 01:35:01.729 "IT'S NOT JUST ONE PERSON. 01:35:01.729 --> 01:35:04.598 "WE'VE BEEN SCREAMING ABOUT THESE ISSUES FOR A LONG TIME, 01:35:04.598 --> 01:35:07.601 AND THE LEADERS OF THE WORLD HAVEN'T LISTENED." 01:35:07.601 --> 01:35:10.270 THE POLITICAL LEADERS WHO KILL OTHER PEOPLE 01:35:10.270 --> 01:35:13.407 ARE OFTEN HATE-FILLED, POSSESSED BY IDEOLOGIES 01:35:13.407 --> 01:35:15.342 THAT LEAD THEM TO SEE GROUPS OF PEOPLE 01:35:15.342 --> 01:35:17.177 AS NECESSARY TO SLAUGHTER, 01:35:17.177 --> 01:35:19.880 BUT THEY ARE NOT CRAZY. 01:35:19.880 --> 01:35:24.918 THEY ARE RATIONAL CALCULATORS OF COSTS AND BENEFITS. 01:35:24.918 --> 01:35:25.986 AFTER ALL, THESE PEOPLE HAVE RISEN 01:35:25.986 --> 01:35:27.855 TO THE PINNACLE OF POWER IN THEIR COUNTRIES, 01:35:27.855 --> 01:35:29.256 AND SO WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS THINK 01:35:29.256 --> 01:35:33.961 ABOUT THEIR COST-BENEFIT CALCULUS. 01:35:33.961 --> 01:35:36.196 LIKE RÍOS MONTT, ALL POLITICAL LEADERS 01:35:36.196 --> 01:35:39.266 WHO INITIATE GENOCIDES AND ELIMINATIONS 01:35:39.266 --> 01:35:41.168 KNOW THAT THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY 01:35:41.168 --> 01:35:44.838 IS UNLIKELY TO INTERFERE WITH THEIR DEADLY PLANS. 01:35:44.838 --> 01:35:48.609 Woman: THIS IS CASE NUMBER IT-95-5/18-I, 01:35:48.609 --> 01:35:51.044 THE PROSECUTOR VERSUS RADOVAN KARADZIC. 01:35:51.044 --> 01:35:52.713 Goldhagen: WE HAVE INTERNATIONAL COURTS, 01:35:52.713 --> 01:35:54.415 AND THEY DO SOME GOOD, 01:35:54.415 --> 01:35:57.718 BUT THEY ARE UNBEARABLY SLOW AND INEFFECTIVE... 01:35:57.718 --> 01:35:59.386 Man: GOOD AFTERNOON, YOUR HONOR. 01:35:59.386 --> 01:36:04.625 AND THE KILLING CONTINUES. 01:36:04.625 --> 01:36:08.162 SO WHAT SHOULD WE DO? 01:36:08.162 --> 01:36:10.464 FROM THE TRAGEDIES IN RWANDA AND ELSEWHERE, 01:36:10.464 --> 01:36:12.733 WE'VE SEEN THAT THE INSTITUTIONS WE RELY ON 01:36:12.733 --> 01:36:15.536 TO COMBAT GENOCIDE DON'T WORK, 01:36:15.536 --> 01:36:18.705 AND IT'S CLEAR THAT AS IN KENYA TIMELY INTERVENTION 01:36:18.705 --> 01:36:20.307 CAN GET POLITICAL LEADERS 01:36:20.307 --> 01:36:24.178 TO STOP THE ELIMINATIONIST ASSAULT. 01:36:24.178 --> 01:36:27.648 IN DEALING WITH A RECALCITRANT GENOCIDAL LEADER IN DARFUR, 01:36:27.648 --> 01:36:30.083 WE'VE LEARNED THAT TO BE EFFECTIVE 01:36:30.083 --> 01:36:33.520 INTERVENTION MUST OFTEN BE FORCEFUL 01:36:33.520 --> 01:36:36.290 AND THAT, AS WAS THE CASE IN BOSNIA, 01:36:36.290 --> 01:36:42.296 RELATIVELY LITTLE FORCE CAN ACHIEVE EXTRAORDINARY RESULTS, 01:36:42.296 --> 01:36:46.066 AND WE KNOW ABOVE ALL THAT GENOCIDES ARE POLITICAL 01:36:46.066 --> 01:36:48.569 AND THEY ARE INITIATED BY A FEW LEADERS 01:36:48.569 --> 01:36:54.074 WHOSE COST-BENEFIT CALCULATIONS CAN BE CHANGED. 01:36:54.074 --> 01:36:57.778 WE NEED TO CHANGE THAT CALCULATION. 01:36:57.778 --> 01:37:00.347 Goldhagen: DO WE NEED TO HAVE A NEW INTERNATIONAL ORIENTATION 01:37:00.347 --> 01:37:02.916 TOWARDS INTERVENTION AND GENOCIDE? 01:37:02.916 --> 01:37:04.251 DEFINITELY. 01:37:04.251 --> 01:37:05.619 HOW WOULD YOU REWRITE THE RULES 01:37:05.619 --> 01:37:09.423 OF THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY ON THIS? 01:37:09.423 --> 01:37:15.128 FIRST, GENOCIDE NEVER HAPPENS AS A SURPRISE. 01:37:15.128 --> 01:37:19.867 NEVER. 01:37:19.867 --> 01:37:25.506 THE SIGNS ARE USUALLY AVAILABLE AND APPARENT, 01:37:25.506 --> 01:37:30.410 AND SO THERE SHOULD BE A DEBATE 01:37:30.410 --> 01:37:34.248 AT THE U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL, 01:37:34.248 --> 01:37:37.317 AT THE LEVEL OF THE EUROPEAN UNION, 01:37:37.317 --> 01:37:38.652 AT THE LEVEL OF AFRICAN UNION, 01:37:38.652 --> 01:37:43.290 OR OTHER POWERBROKERS 01:37:43.290 --> 01:37:48.095 TO SET UNDER WHICH CIRCUMSTANCES 01:37:48.095 --> 01:37:52.533 INTERVENTION WOULD BE DEEMED NECESSARY. 01:37:52.533 --> 01:37:55.569 SO YOU DON'T WAIT UNTIL IT HAS HAPPENED. 01:37:55.569 --> 01:37:57.838 THERE MUST BE PREVENTIVE MEASURES. 01:37:57.838 --> 01:38:01.775 SO I THINK WE SHOULD GO BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD. 01:38:01.775 --> 01:38:04.444 Goldhagen, voice-over: BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD INDEED. 01:38:04.444 --> 01:38:08.582 GIVEN EVERYTHING I'VE SEEN AND STUDIED, THIS MUCH IS CLEAR. 01:38:08.582 --> 01:38:12.953 INSTEAD OF THE U.N., WE NEED AN INTERNATIONAL WATCHDOG ORGANIZATION 01:38:12.953 --> 01:38:16.123 MADE UP OF DEMOCRATIC NATIONS THAT WILL ENFORCE 01:38:16.123 --> 01:38:22.462 A ZERO TOLERANCE POLICY ON GENOCIDE AND ELIMINATIONISM. 01:38:22.462 --> 01:38:25.499 EACH OF THE MEMBERS MUST HAVE THE RIGHT TO INTERVENE 01:38:25.499 --> 01:38:27.534 INDIVIDUALLY OR COLLECTIVELY 01:38:27.534 --> 01:38:30.704 TO STOP CAMPAIGNS OF ELIMINATION, 01:38:30.704 --> 01:38:33.774 BUT INTERVENTION, EVEN FORCEFUL INTERVENTION, 01:38:33.774 --> 01:38:35.375 IS NOT ENOUGH. 01:38:35.375 --> 01:38:36.910 BY THE TIME WE INTERVENE, 01:38:36.910 --> 01:38:39.947 TENS OF THOUSANDS CAN BE DEAD OR HOMELESS. 01:38:39.947 --> 01:38:43.617 WE NEED AN EFFECTIVE SYSTEM OF PREVENTION. 01:38:43.617 --> 01:38:46.353 WE'VE GOT TO STOP GENOCIDES BEFORE THEY HAPPEN 01:38:46.353 --> 01:38:48.889 BY SHOWING POLITICAL LEADERS THAT THE COSTS TO THEM 01:38:48.889 --> 01:38:53.493 WILL FOR SURE FAR OUTWEIGH THE BENEFITS. 01:38:53.493 --> 01:38:56.196 THE U.S. HAS A BOUNTY PROGRAM FOR GETTING PEOPLE 01:38:56.196 --> 01:38:58.031 TO HUNT DOWN TERRORISTS. 01:38:58.031 --> 01:39:00.167 WHY NOT HAVE DEMOCRATIC COUNTRIES DO THE SAME 01:39:00.167 --> 01:39:03.804 FOR LEADERS WHO PERPETRATE GENOCIDES AND ELIMINATIONS? 01:39:03.804 --> 01:39:06.273 LET'S SAY FOR EXAMPLE, THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY 01:39:06.273 --> 01:39:09.176 DECLARED THE LEADERS OF COUNTRIES THAT COMMIT GENOCIDE 01:39:09.176 --> 01:39:10.344 TO BE OUTLAWS. 01:39:10.344 --> 01:39:13.547 THEY CAN BE HUNTED DOWN UNTIL THEY EITHER 01:39:13.547 --> 01:39:16.116 GIVE THEMSELVES UP OR UNTIL THEY'RE KILLED. 01:39:16.116 --> 01:39:17.751 WOULD MILOSEVIC UNDER THESE CIRCUMSTANCES 01:39:17.751 --> 01:39:22.155 HAVE EVER INITIATED THE SLAUGHTER OF BOSNIANS? 01:39:22.155 --> 01:39:23.657 I DON'T THINK HE WOULD. 01:39:23.657 --> 01:39:29.162 HE COUNTED WITH POWERFUL FRIENDS 01:39:29.162 --> 01:39:32.232 AND MOST OF ALL WITH THE FACTUAL SITUATION 01:39:32.232 --> 01:39:34.267 ON THE GROUND, KNOWING THAT 01:39:34.267 --> 01:39:38.939 THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY IS IN LOVE WITH THE STATUS QUO. 01:39:38.939 --> 01:39:42.509 WE MUST SHOW THAT IT DOESN'T PAY. 01:39:42.509 --> 01:39:48.248 IF PEOPLE KNEW THAT AT THE END OF THE DAY 01:39:48.248 --> 01:39:50.517 THEY'D BE THE LOSERS, 01:39:50.517 --> 01:39:53.286 THEY WOULD NEVER INVEST 01:39:53.286 --> 01:39:55.188 IN A LOSING ENTERPRISE. 01:39:55.188 --> 01:39:57.391 IT'S BECAUSE GENOCIDE IS A POLITICAL GAME, 01:39:57.391 --> 01:39:59.526 IT'S A POWER PLAY, IT'S WORSE, 01:39:59.526 --> 01:40:01.995 IT'S EVERYTHING. 01:40:01.995 --> 01:40:07.300 IF PEOPLE INVOLVED IN KNEW AT THE END OF THE DAY 01:40:07.300 --> 01:40:08.802 THEY'D BE THE LOSERS, 01:40:08.802 --> 01:40:13.674 THEY WOULD NOT PLAY THE GAME, THAT'S FOR SURE. 01:40:13.674 --> 01:40:15.409 Goldhagen: WHAT IS THE ALTERNATIVE TO DEALING 01:40:15.409 --> 01:40:17.944 FORCEFULLY WITH GENOCIDAL LEADERS? 01:40:17.944 --> 01:40:19.579 THE STATUS QUO, 01:40:19.579 --> 01:40:26.286 MORE MASS MURDER, MORE LIVES DESTROYED. 01:40:26.286 --> 01:40:30.323 THE KEY TO STOPPING GENOCIDE IS TO FOCUS ON THE LEADERS. 01:40:30.323 --> 01:40:34.361 THE KEY TO GETTING US TO ACT IS TO IDENTIFY WITH THE VICTIMS, 01:40:34.361 --> 01:40:36.663 TO THINK OF EACH ONE AS IF HE OR SHE WERE 01:40:36.663 --> 01:40:40.100 YOUR DAUGHTER OR SON, YOUR SISTER OR BROTHER, 01:40:40.100 --> 01:40:42.102 YOUR MOTHER OR YOUR FATHER. 01:40:42.102 --> 01:40:48.241 WE'RE GONNA "T" INTO CAR--CAR-- CARMEN-- 01:40:48.241 --> 01:40:49.576 I DON'T KNOW HOW TO READ IT. 01:40:49.576 --> 01:40:51.878 Goldhagen, voice-over: MY JOURNEY ENDS WITH MY FATHER 01:40:51.878 --> 01:40:54.614 AT THE PLACE WHERE HIS BEGAN. 01:40:54.614 --> 01:40:59.319 SHORTLY AFTER THE GERMANS AND THE ROMANIAN ALLIES ENTERED MY FATHER'S TOWN, 01:40:59.319 --> 01:41:01.888 THEY SLAUGHTERED 800 JEWS. 01:41:01.888 --> 01:41:04.558 MY FATHER AND HIS FAMILY WERE NEARLY EXECUTED 01:41:04.558 --> 01:41:06.960 ON A DIRT ROAD BEHIND THEIR HOUSE 01:41:06.960 --> 01:41:12.766 SOMEWHERE IN THIS NEIGHBORHOOD. 01:41:12.766 --> 01:41:13.834 DO YOU SEE ANY TRACKS? 01:41:13.834 --> 01:41:16.336 THEY SHOULD BE STRAIGHT AHEAD. 01:41:16.336 --> 01:41:18.205 IF WE END HERE, THE TRACKS SHOULD BE RIGHT DOWN HERE. 01:41:18.205 --> 01:41:20.941 HERE THEY ARE. 01:41:20.941 --> 01:41:22.342 TATI, SEE THE TRACKS? 01:41:22.342 --> 01:41:23.677 I DON'T KNOW. DO YOU SEE THEM? 01:41:23.677 --> 01:41:24.911 YES, THEY'RE RIGHT THERE. 01:41:24.911 --> 01:41:26.880 OH, I SEE. YEAH. THAT WAS HERE. 01:41:26.880 --> 01:41:34.621 I LIVED RIGHT HERE. 01:41:34.621 --> 01:41:37.924 I RAN OUT WITH MY FATHER BEYOND FROM THERE. 01:41:37.924 --> 01:41:39.025 OUT THE OTHER SIDE? 01:41:39.025 --> 01:41:41.361 YES. I REMEMBER WE RAN OVER A FENCE, 01:41:41.361 --> 01:41:43.363 AND AS WE WERE RUNNING, A SOLDIER SPIED US 01:41:43.363 --> 01:41:44.831 AND BEAT MY FATHER VERY SEVERELY 01:41:44.831 --> 01:41:46.333 WITH THE BUTT OF HIS RIFLE 01:41:46.333 --> 01:41:48.101 AND PUT US AGAINST-- SAID, "WAIT HERE," 01:41:48.101 --> 01:41:50.637 PUT US AGAINST-- OF COURSE THERE WAS A FENCE-- 01:41:50.637 --> 01:41:52.139 AGAINST THE FENCE, 01:41:52.139 --> 01:41:58.845 AND THEN HE TOLD ME TO TELL THE FAMILY TO COME-- 01:41:58.845 --> 01:41:59.846 TO COME OUT. 01:41:59.846 --> 01:42:00.847 SO HE SENT YOU BACK TO THE HOUSE? 01:42:00.847 --> 01:42:02.215 HE SENT ME BACK TO THE HOUSE, 01:42:02.215 --> 01:42:07.387 AND WE SAW NEIGHBORS STANDING BEYOND THIS RAILWAY, 01:42:07.387 --> 01:42:10.390 AND WE REALIZED THAT THEY'RE LOOKING AT US 01:42:10.390 --> 01:42:14.995 IN A CERTAIN WAY THAT THEY-- IN AN OMINOUS WAY. 01:42:14.995 --> 01:42:24.070 THEY--WHICH DIDN'T-- WHICH DIDN'T BODE WELL, TO SAY THE LEAST. 01:42:24.070 --> 01:42:26.940 NOW THAT WE'RE HERE, IS THIS--HAS IT CHANGED YOUR VIEW? 01:42:26.940 --> 01:42:29.509 YOU SEE, THE POINT IS THAT THE SCHOLARLY ELEMENT-- 01:42:29.509 --> 01:42:33.680 THE SCHOLAR WITHIN ME IMMEDIATELY TAKES OVER THE-- 01:42:33.680 --> 01:42:38.985 AND OVERSHADOWS THE EMOTIONS OF THE SURVIVOR 01:42:38.985 --> 01:42:42.622 WHO REVISITS THE SCENE OF HIS NEAR DEATH. 01:42:42.622 --> 01:42:46.860 SO AS I TALK TO YOU, I BEGIN TO REFLECT, 01:42:46.860 --> 01:42:49.095 DRAW HISTORICAL ANALOGIES, AND SO ON, 01:42:49.095 --> 01:42:52.332 SO THEREFORE, IT HAS A CERTAIN TEMPERING EFFECT 01:42:52.332 --> 01:42:54.501 UPON MY EMOTIONS AS I CONFRONT 01:42:54.501 --> 01:42:56.002 THIS HOUSE WHERE I LIVED, 01:42:56.002 --> 01:42:57.571 THIS STREET WHERE I WALKED, 01:42:57.571 --> 01:43:03.109 AND REFLECTED ON MY BLOOD LYING IN THE DUST HERE, 01:43:03.109 --> 01:43:06.580 BUT WHEN I REMEMBER THAT MOMENT AS I WALKED 01:43:06.580 --> 01:43:08.315 AND I JUST COULDN'T BELIEVE-- 01:43:08.315 --> 01:43:12.485 YES, I DID REFLECT UPON HOW I WOULD LIE DEAD. 01:43:12.485 --> 01:43:14.821 WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE DEAD 01:43:14.821 --> 01:43:17.357 AND TO LIE IN YOUR BLOOD? 01:43:17.357 --> 01:43:39.346 I REMEMBERED VIVIDLY THIS IMAGERY THAT I HAD AS I WALKED, AND... 01:43:39.346 --> 01:43:41.882 Goldhagen, voice-over: WHAT MUST IT FEEL LIKE FOR A 10-YEAR-OLD BOY 01:43:41.882 --> 01:43:47.220 TO CONTEMPLATE HIS OWN IMMINENT, VIOLENT DEATH 01:43:47.220 --> 01:43:53.360 OR A 16-YEAR-OLD GIRL OR A 19-YEAR-OLD MAN? 01:43:53.360 --> 01:43:57.063 WHAT MUST IT FEEL LIKE TO BE IMPRISONED IN A RAPE CAMP 01:43:57.063 --> 01:44:01.268 OR TO WATCH HELPLESSLY AS MEMBERS OF YOUR FAMILY ARE KILLED 01:44:01.268 --> 01:44:12.979 OR AS YOUR PEOPLE ARE DECIMATED? 01:44:12.979 --> 01:44:15.982 WHAT MUST IT HAVE BEEN LIKE FOR THE MEN OF SREBRENICA 01:44:15.982 --> 01:44:19.686 WHO WERE HERDED INTO THIS WAREHOUSE 01:44:19.686 --> 01:44:21.988 OR FOR THE OTHERS FORCED AT GUNPOINT 01:44:21.988 --> 01:44:24.624 INTO NEARBY FIELDS TO BE EXECUTED? 01:44:24.624 --> 01:45:03.863 [SPEAKING NATIVE LANGUAGE] 01:45:03.863 --> 01:45:07.867 [GUNSHOT] 01:45:07.867 --> 01:45:09.569 [GUNSHOT] 01:45:09.569 --> 01:45:12.539 [GUNSHOT] 01:45:12.539 --> 01:45:17.210 [GUNSHOT] 01:45:17.210 --> 01:45:21.014 [RAPID GUNSHOTS] 01:45:21.014 --> 01:45:32.859 [GUNFIRE CONTINUING] 01:45:32.859 --> 01:45:39.432 [GUNFIRE CONTINUING] 01:45:39.432 --> 01:45:42.402 Goldhagen: WE CAN'T STAND BY ANYMORE. 01:45:42.402 --> 01:45:45.905 PEOPLE ARE DYING EVERY DAY. 01:45:45.905 --> 01:45:48.708 A FEW POLITICAL LEADERS START GENOCIDES. 01:45:48.708 --> 01:45:53.013 A FEW POLITICAL LEADERS CAN STOP THEM. 01:45:53.013 --> 01:45:55.448 THE PRESIDENTS AND PRIME MINISTERS WE ELECT 01:45:55.448 --> 01:45:59.152 HAVE THE POWER TO END IMPUNITY AND CHANGE THE CHOICES 01:45:59.152 --> 01:46:04.958 POTENTIAL MASS KILLERS MAKE. 01:46:04.958 --> 01:46:08.028 WE MUST HOLD OUR LEADERS ACCOUNTABLE AND DEMAND 01:46:08.028 --> 01:46:29.315 THAT THEY BRING AN END TO GENOCIDE AND ELIMINATIONISM. 01:46:29.315 --> 01:46:35.288 [INDISTINCT CHATTER] 01:46:35.288 --> 01:46:36.756 THANK YOU. HOW DO YOU SAY THANK YOU? 01:46:36.756 --> 01:46:38.158 I NEVER REMEMBER ANYTHING. 01:46:38.158 --> 01:46:39.325 [MAN SPEAKS NATIVE LANGUAGE] 01:46:39.325 --> 01:46:40.326 [REPEATS PHRASE] 01:46:40.326 --> 01:46:42.429 EVERYONE. 01:46:42.429 --> 01:46:45.665 Goldhagen, voice-over: I HAD BEEN WORKING ON "WORSE THAN WAR" 01:46:45.665 --> 01:46:50.603 FOR ABOUT 10 YEARS BEFORE THE FILM PROJECT BEGAN. 01:46:50.603 --> 01:46:52.906 WHEN I WRITE A BOOK, I CAN PRETTY MUCH SAY WHATEVER I WANT TO, 01:46:52.906 --> 01:46:55.575 AND IF I DECIDE SOMETHING NEEDS 20 PAGES OF ELABORATION, 01:46:55.575 --> 01:46:56.776 THEN I DO IT. 01:46:56.776 --> 01:46:58.278 EVEN THOUGH I HAD THOUGHT AT THE BEGINNING, 01:46:58.278 --> 01:47:01.181 "WELL, I KNOW WHAT THIS FILM SHOULD SAY," 01:47:01.181 --> 01:47:02.615 IT TURNED INTO SOMETHING QUITE DIFFERENT 01:47:02.615 --> 01:47:04.284 AND INFINITELY BETTER THAN ANYTHING 01:47:04.284 --> 01:47:08.221 I WOULD HAVE PRODUCED HAD I BEEN THE FILMMAKER 01:47:08.221 --> 01:47:11.024 BECAUSE I PROBABLY WOULD HAVE PRODUCED A NICE TWO-HOUR LECTURE 01:47:11.024 --> 01:47:12.826 OF SOME KIND WITH VISUALS 01:47:12.826 --> 01:47:15.962 INSTEAD OF A FILM THAT IS VISUALLY ARRESTING 01:47:15.962 --> 01:47:17.730 AND EMOTIONALLY EVOCATIVE 01:47:17.730 --> 01:47:21.101 AND, AS POWERFUL AS THE BOOK IS, 01:47:21.101 --> 01:47:26.206 IN SOME WAYS OBVIOUSLY MORE POWERFUL. 01:47:26.206 --> 01:47:31.077 WHEN MY FATHER AND I WENT TO WHERE HE HAD LIVED DURING THE HOLOCAUST, 01:47:31.077 --> 01:47:35.915 SARAH MY WIFE AND GIDEON OUR SON CAME WITH US. 01:47:35.915 --> 01:47:38.685 GIDEON AT THE TIME WAS 7 YEARS OLD, 01:47:38.685 --> 01:47:40.386 AND HE WAS DEEPLY INTERESTED. 01:47:40.386 --> 01:47:42.522 HE'S VERY CLOSE MY PARENTS. THEY LIVE NEARBY. 01:47:42.522 --> 01:47:45.625 HE WAS DEEPLY INTERESTED IN GOING TO WHERE GRANDPA WAS FROM. 01:47:45.625 --> 01:47:47.260 SO THEY CAME ON THE TRIP WITH US, 01:47:47.260 --> 01:47:51.931 AND IT WAS SOMETHING THAT MADE MY FATHER ENORMOUSLY HAPPY. 01:47:51.931 --> 01:47:54.434 THAT ONE OF HIS GRANDCHILDREN COULD SEE WHERE 01:47:54.434 --> 01:47:57.170 MY FATHER CAME FROM AND WHERE HE SUFFERED 01:47:57.170 --> 01:47:58.838 AND WHERE HIS FAMILY SUFFERED 01:47:58.838 --> 01:48:01.674 MADE THE TRIP, IF ONE CAN SAY SUCH A THING, 01:48:01.674 --> 01:48:12.719 TWICE AS MOVING AND MEMORABLE AND MEANINGFUL FOR HIM. 01:48:12.719 --> 01:48:15.155 THERE'S NO DOUBT THAT MY FATHER INFLUENCED 01:48:15.155 --> 01:48:19.125 MY INITIAL DIRECTION OF WORKING ON THE HOLOCAUST, 01:48:19.125 --> 01:48:20.827 BUT IT'S LESS BECAUSE HE WAS A SURVIVOR 01:48:20.827 --> 01:48:23.429 THAN HE WAS A PROFESSOR WHO STUDIED THIS, 01:48:23.429 --> 01:48:25.632 AND I GREW UP WITH THIS MATERIAL IN MY HOME 01:48:25.632 --> 01:48:28.501 ALWAYS WITH THE PURPOSE NOT OF TELLING A TALE OF WOE, 01:48:28.501 --> 01:48:31.538 WHICH IT IS, BUT OF UNDERSTANDING AND EXPLAINING. 01:48:31.538 --> 01:48:35.775 THIS WAS ALWAYS MY ORIENTATION FROM THE TIME I CAN REMEMBER 01:48:35.775 --> 01:48:40.113 KNOWING OR THINKING ABOUT IT OR DISCUSSING IT, 01:48:40.113 --> 01:48:47.220 BUT IT CHANGES YOU TO SEE THE PLACES. 01:48:47.220 --> 01:48:51.624 THE CLICHÉ "A PICTURE'S WORTH A THOUSAND WORDS" 01:48:51.624 --> 01:48:55.695 ONLY BEGINS TO CONVEY WHAT BEING IN A PLACE 01:48:55.695 --> 01:48:57.864 AND SITTING ACROSS FROM THE VICTIMS 01:48:57.864 --> 01:49:01.334 AND SEEING THE LOCATIONS WHERE PEOPLE WERE SLAUGHTERED 01:49:01.334 --> 01:49:05.071 AND BEING IN A FORENSIC LAB WITH THE REMAINS OF VICTIMS 01:49:05.071 --> 01:49:07.173 OR BEING IN A MASS GRAVE 01:49:07.173 --> 01:49:10.143 OR STANDING ACROSS FROM A MASTERMIND OF GENOCIDE 01:49:10.143 --> 01:49:12.912 SUCH AS RÍOS MONTT. 01:49:12.912 --> 01:49:14.647 IT CHANGES YOU. 01:49:14.647 --> 01:49:17.417 IT IS MORE THAN WORTH A THOUSAND WORDS. 01:49:17.417 --> 01:49:23.556 IT'S WORTH ENDLESS, ENDLESS VOLUMES OF WORDS. 01:49:23.556 --> 01:49:28.394 IN RWANDA, WE GAINED ACCESS TO ONE OF THE PRISON CAMPS. 01:49:28.394 --> 01:49:33.266 IT'S ACTUALLY A WORK CAMP FOR PRISONERS WHO CONFESSED 01:49:33.266 --> 01:49:35.335 TO THEIR CRIMES, OR AT LEAST SOME CRIMES, 01:49:35.335 --> 01:49:38.705 TO CONFESS TO HAVING PARTICIPATED IN THE GENOCIDE. 01:49:38.705 --> 01:49:41.507 IF YOU CAN BELIEVE THAT, THERE ARE ABOUT 1,000 PEOPLE IN THIS PRISON. 01:49:41.507 --> 01:49:43.376 THERE WERE NO GUARDS. 01:49:43.376 --> 01:49:45.078 SO WE INTERVIEWED THE PERPETRATORS IN THE FIELD. 01:49:45.078 --> 01:49:46.479 THE WARDEN JUST BROUGHT PEOPLE TO US. 01:49:46.479 --> 01:49:49.015 WE HAD NO IDEA WHO WE'D BE TALKING TO, 01:49:49.015 --> 01:49:50.750 AND ALSO, WE WALKED AMONG THEM. 01:49:50.750 --> 01:49:57.257 THEY WERE TILLING THE GROUND WITH HOES AND PICKS AND MACHETES, 01:49:57.257 --> 01:50:00.159 CLEARING IT, AND YOU'RE WALKING AMONG THEM 01:50:00.159 --> 01:50:03.496 WITHIN FEET OF ROWS OF THEM WIELDING THESE IMPLEMENTS, 01:50:03.496 --> 01:50:08.968 AND YOU CAN'T BUT THINK THESE ARE THE IMPLEMENTS THEY USED TO SLAUGHTER 01:50:08.968 --> 01:50:11.404 THEIR VICTIMS DURING THE GENOCIDE 01:50:11.404 --> 01:50:14.641 BY THE INDIVIDUALLY, BY THE TENS, BY THE HUNDREDS, 01:50:14.641 --> 01:50:18.811 BY THE THOUSANDS ULTIMATELY. 01:50:18.811 --> 01:50:18.811 OK. 01:50:18.811 --> 01:50:21.147 TELL ME WHEN. 01:50:21.147 --> 01:50:24.284 SHAKING THE HAND OF A KILLER BEFORE I EVEN KNOW ANYTHING ELSE 01:50:24.284 --> 01:50:26.586 ABOUT HIM EXCEPT FOR WHAT HIS NAME IS, 01:50:26.586 --> 01:50:28.021 IS A STRANGE THING. 01:50:28.021 --> 01:50:29.489 IT'S AN ACT OF POLITENESS. 01:50:29.489 --> 01:50:32.625 IT'S A TIME OF HUMAN SHARING, 01:50:32.625 --> 01:50:34.560 AND YET THAT SAME HAND-- I SHAKE THE HAND. 01:50:34.560 --> 01:50:40.266 I THINK THE SAME HAND ACTUALLY WAS WIELDING A MACHETE 01:50:40.266 --> 01:50:42.568 AND STRIKING AND KILLING 01:50:42.568 --> 01:50:45.938 AND HACKING TO DEATH OTHER PEOPLE, 01:50:45.938 --> 01:50:48.908 AND YOU CAN'T FLINCH, 01:50:48.908 --> 01:50:51.577 AND YOU CAN'T SAY, "I DON'T WANT TO DO IT," 01:50:51.577 --> 01:50:54.414 AND YOU HAVE TO DO IT BECAUSE IT'S PART 01:50:54.414 --> 01:50:56.582 OF WHAT YOU NEED TO DO WHEN YOU INTERVIEW SOMEBODY, 01:50:56.582 --> 01:50:59.385 AND THAT'S JUST THE BEGINNING OF SITTING ACROSS FROM SOMEONE 01:50:59.385 --> 01:51:01.988 WHO THEN BEGINS TO TELL YOU OF THE HORRIBLE THINGS, 01:51:01.988 --> 01:51:03.923 THE HORRIFYING THINGS THAT HE DID, 01:51:03.923 --> 01:51:06.926 THE WAYS THAT HE DID IT. 01:51:06.926 --> 01:51:09.796 AND SO THERE I AM, A WHOLE JUMBLE OF EMOTIONS 01:51:09.796 --> 01:51:14.434 AND THOUGHT AND DIFFERENT ORIENTATIONS AT THE SAME TIME-- 01:51:14.434 --> 01:51:17.403 THE INTERVIEWER, THE SCHOLAR THINKING ABOUT WHAT HE SAYS, 01:51:17.403 --> 01:51:19.439 THE ANALYST, THE HUMAN BEING SITTING 01:51:19.439 --> 01:51:21.874 ACROSS FROM A MASS MURDERER, 01:51:21.874 --> 01:51:24.310 FEELING A DEGREE OF SYMPATHY OR EVEN OF LIKING FOR SOMEONE, 01:51:24.310 --> 01:51:26.379 BECAUSE SOME SEEM LIKEABLE, 01:51:26.379 --> 01:51:38.024 AND ALSO ALWAYS KEEPING IN MIND THAT THESE ARE MASS MURDERERS. 01:51:38.024 --> 01:51:44.130 TO BE ABLE IN MAKING THIS FILM TO GO TO ANY NUMBER OF COUNTRIES 01:51:44.130 --> 01:51:46.966 AND TO TALK TO THE VICTIMS, TO TALK TO THE PERPETRATORS, 01:51:46.966 --> 01:51:50.036 JUST TO SEE THE PLACES I'D READ ABOUT 01:51:50.036 --> 01:51:52.472 WAS TRANSFORMATIVE, 01:51:52.472 --> 01:51:57.343 AND I THINK BACK ON THE PEOPLE QUITE OFTEN I TALKED TO. 01:51:57.343 --> 01:52:00.279 THEY RESONATE WITH ME. THEIR FACES I SEE. 01:52:00.279 --> 01:52:06.786 IN THE FILM, MY FATHER AND SOME OTHERS TALKED ABOUT SEEING FACES. 01:52:06.786 --> 01:52:08.688 THEY'RE HAUNTED BY THEM, OR THEY REMEMBER THEM, 01:52:08.688 --> 01:52:10.990 THE FACES OF THE PEOPLE WHO DIED. 01:52:10.990 --> 01:52:15.228 WELL, THE FACES OF THE PEOPLE I SPOKE WITH AND THEIR WORDS ARE WITH ME 01:52:15.228 --> 01:52:20.266 IN THE WAY THAT THE TESTIMONY IN DOCUMENTS 01:52:20.266 --> 01:52:23.970 AND COURT TESTIMONY AND SO ON NEVER ARE WITH ME. 01:52:23.970 --> 01:52:28.674 I HEAR THEM, I SEE THEM, I THINK ABOUT THEM. 01:52:28.674 --> 01:52:33.880 I ABSORBED AND INTERNALIZED THINGS INTO MY BEING 01:52:33.880 --> 01:52:43.423 THAT WERE NEVER THERE AND THAT WILL NEVER LEAVE ME. 01:52:43.423 --> 01:52:51.731 Announcer: "WORSE THAN WAR" WAS MADE POSSIBLE BY... 01:52:51.731 --> 01:52:57.670 AND... 01:52:57.670 --> 01:53:19.425 ADDITIONAL FUNDING WAS PROVIDED BY... 01:53:19.425 --> 01:53:22.495 CAPTIONING MADE POSSIBLE BY FRIENDS OF NCI 01:53:22.495 --> 01:53:30.303 CAPTIONED BY THE NATIONAL CAPTIONING INSTITUTE --www.ncicap.org-- 01:53:30.303 --> 01:53:33.506 "WORSE THAN WAR" CONTINUES ONLINE. 01:53:33.506 --> 01:53:34.740 FOR MORE RESOURCES, 01:53:34.740 --> 01:53:37.310 INFORMATION ABOUT THE PHENOMENON OF GENOCIDE, 01:53:37.310 --> 01:53:39.712 AND EXCERPTS FROM DANIEL GOLDHAGEN'S BOOK, 01:53:39.712 --> 01:53:43.516 VISIT PBS.ORG. 01:53:43.516 --> 01:53:46.752 THE "WORSE THAN WAR" PROGRAM IS AVAILABLE ON DVD 01:53:46.752 --> 01:53:50.289 FOR $24.95 PLUS SHIPPING. 01:53:50.289 --> 01:53:55.228 THE COMPANION BOOK IS AVAILABLE FOR $29.95 PLUS SHIPPING. 01:53:55.228 --> 99:59:59.999 TO ORDER, CALL 1-800-336-1917.