1 00:00:04,470 --> 00:00:05,571 [REPORTERS TALKING ALL AT ONCE] 2 00:00:05,571 --> 00:00:05,571 DARFUR... 3 00:00:05,571 --> 00:00:05,571 GUATEMALA... 4 00:00:05,571 --> 00:00:06,906 THE NAZI KILLERS... 5 00:00:06,906 --> 00:00:08,041 Narrator: GENOCIDE. 6 00:00:08,041 --> 00:00:08,041 I MEAN, WHY WERE THEY DOING THIS? 7 00:00:08,041 --> 00:00:09,242 TERROR. 8 00:00:09,242 --> 00:00:11,577 BEST-SELLING HISTORIAN DANIEL GOLDHAGEN 9 00:00:11,577 --> 00:00:13,346 EXPLORES THE MOTIVE... 10 00:00:13,346 --> 00:00:15,515 GENOCIDE NEVER HAPPENS AS A SURPRISE. 11 00:00:15,515 --> 00:00:17,450 AND EXPLODES THE MYTH... 12 00:00:17,450 --> 00:00:18,918 THESE PEOPLE HAD TO BE ELIMINATED. 13 00:00:18,918 --> 00:00:20,653 BEHIND A CRIME... 14 00:00:20,653 --> 00:00:22,488 IT WAS CRUELTY THAT OVERCAME US, 15 00:00:22,488 --> 00:00:23,790 ME AND MY FELLOW CRIMINALS. 16 00:00:23,790 --> 00:00:26,159 GENOCIDE IS ALWAYS POLITICS. 17 00:00:26,159 --> 00:00:28,661 THAT'S WORSE THAN WAR. 18 00:00:28,661 --> 00:00:33,433 CAPTIONING MADE POSSIBLE BY FRIENDS OF NCI 19 00:00:33,433 --> 00:00:36,436 "WORSE THAN WAR" WAS MADE POSSIBLE BY... 20 00:00:36,436 --> 00:00:41,441 THE PERSHING SQUARE FOUNDATION... 21 00:00:41,441 --> 00:00:47,447 AND THE EINHORN FAMILY CHARITABLE TRUST. 22 00:00:47,447 --> 00:01:07,900 ADDITIONAL FUNDING WAS PROVIDED BY... 23 00:01:07,900 --> 00:01:14,907 [BIRD CHIRPING] 24 00:01:14,907 --> 00:01:18,411 Man: SO ALL THE PEOPLE HERE MURDERED OTHER PEOPLE? 25 00:01:18,411 --> 00:01:21,414 [TRANSLATOR SPEAKS NATIVE LANGUAGE] 26 00:01:21,414 --> 00:01:55,982 YES. YOU CAN'T BE HERE IF YOU HAVEN'T KILLED. 27 00:01:55,982 --> 00:02:04,090 [BIRD CHIRPING] 28 00:02:04,090 --> 00:02:07,326 CAN YOU SHOW ME HOW YOU-- HOW THE PERSON WAS HACKED? 29 00:02:07,326 --> 00:02:47,433 [TRANSLATOR SPEAKS NATIVE LANGUAGE] 30 00:02:47,433 --> 00:02:51,604 I'VE BEEN THINKING AND WRITING ABOUT GENOCIDE FOR NEARLY 30 YEARS, 31 00:02:51,604 --> 00:02:54,607 IT'S SOMETHING PEOPLE DON'T MUCH LIKE TO TALK ABOUT 32 00:02:54,607 --> 00:02:58,611 AND ABOUT WHICH MOST OF US REMAIN DANGEROUSLY MISINFORMED. 33 00:02:58,611 --> 00:03:02,548 Woman: GOOD EVENING. A NEW BOOK CALLED "HITLER'S WILLING EXECUTIONERS," 34 00:03:02,548 --> 00:03:04,550 A HIGHLY CONTROVERSIAL ACCOUNT OF THE HOLOCAUST... 35 00:03:04,550 --> 00:03:06,052 Man: THE AMERICAN DANIEL GOLDHAGEN SAYS 36 00:03:06,052 --> 00:03:09,555 THE EXCUSE OF ONLY OBEYING ORDERS WON'T WASH. 37 00:03:09,555 --> 00:03:12,058 [MAN SPEAKS NATIVE LANGUAGE] 38 00:03:12,058 --> 00:03:14,393 Jane Pauley: A CONTROVERSIAL BOOK ABOUT THE HOLOCAUST, 39 00:03:14,393 --> 00:03:16,395 RAISING A TROUBLING NEW QUESTION: 40 00:03:16,395 --> 00:03:18,397 WERE NAZI KILLERS HELPED 41 00:03:18,397 --> 00:03:21,601 BY HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF ORDINARY GERMANS? 42 00:03:21,601 --> 00:03:25,104 THEY SUBJECTED THE VICTIMS TO GRATUITOUS BRUTALITY, 43 00:03:25,104 --> 00:03:26,772 INCESSANT CRUELTY, 44 00:03:26,772 --> 00:03:28,941 SO THE PICTURE THAT EMERGES IS NOT OF RELUCTANT PEOPLE 45 00:03:28,941 --> 00:03:31,110 WHO ARE COMPELLED TO DO WHAT THEY DID, 46 00:03:31,110 --> 00:03:34,113 BUT PEOPLE WHO AGREED WITH THE PROGRAM, WHO BELIEVED 47 00:03:34,113 --> 00:03:40,786 THAT THE DEATH OF THE JEWS WAS NECESSARY AND JUST. 48 00:03:40,786 --> 00:03:44,290 Goldhagen: I'VE SPENT MY PROFESSIONAL LIFE TRYING TO DISPEL THE MANY MYTHS 49 00:03:44,290 --> 00:03:46,792 THAT CLOUD PEOPLE'S JUDGMENT AND PREVENT US FROM DOING 50 00:03:46,792 --> 00:03:56,469 SOMETHING EFFECTIVE TO STOP THE KILLING. 51 00:03:56,469 --> 00:03:59,472 GENOCIDES HAPPEN IN EVERY CORNER OF THE WORLD, 52 00:03:59,472 --> 00:04:03,309 THROUGH EVERY TYPE OF PEOPLE. 53 00:04:03,309 --> 00:04:09,882 THE NUMBERS IN THE PAST 100 YEARS ARE STAGGERING. 54 00:04:09,882 --> 00:04:14,887 THE TURKS SLAUGHTERED MORE THAN A MILLION ARMENIANS DURING WORLD WAR I. 55 00:04:14,887 --> 00:04:17,890 IN THE 1930s AND 1940s, 56 00:04:17,890 --> 00:04:22,695 THE JAPANESE KILLED MILLIONS ACROSS ASIA. 57 00:04:22,695 --> 00:04:24,130 IN THE SOVIET UNION, 58 00:04:24,130 --> 00:04:26,599 THE ESTIMATED NUMBER OF DEATHS IN THE GULAG CAMPS 59 00:04:26,599 --> 00:04:30,836 AND BEYOND IS MORE THAN 8 MILLION. 60 00:04:30,836 --> 00:04:33,539 THE GERMANS SLAUGHTERED 6 MILLION JEWS 61 00:04:33,539 --> 00:04:36,509 AND MILLIONS MORE DURING WORLD WAR II. 62 00:04:36,509 --> 00:04:38,511 IN THE 1950s AND 1960s, 63 00:04:38,511 --> 00:04:43,049 THE COMMUNIST CHINESE KILLED AN ESTIMATED 30 MILLION, 64 00:04:43,049 --> 00:04:45,051 AND DURING THE 1970s, 65 00:04:45,051 --> 00:04:48,554 THE KHMER ROUGE KILLED 1.7 MILLION CAMBODIANS-- 66 00:04:48,554 --> 00:04:52,491 FULLY 20% OF THEIR COUNTRY'S POPULATION. 67 00:04:52,491 --> 00:04:54,593 BOSNIA, 68 00:04:54,593 --> 00:04:55,695 RWANDA, 69 00:04:55,695 --> 00:04:56,696 CONGO, 70 00:04:56,696 --> 00:04:58,698 DARFUR. 71 00:04:58,698 --> 00:05:01,133 ALL TOLD, IN OUR TIME 72 00:05:01,133 --> 00:05:05,705 THERE HAVE BEEN MORE THAN 100 MILLION INNOCENT VICTIMS OF GENOCIDE-- 73 00:05:05,705 --> 00:05:09,709 MORE THAN ALL THE COMBAT DEATHS IN ALL THE WARS FOUGHT 74 00:05:09,709 --> 00:05:13,212 DURING THAT TIME EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD. 75 00:05:13,212 --> 00:05:17,717 BASED ON THE HUMAN TOLL ALONE, GENOCIDE AND MASS SLAUGHTER 76 00:05:17,717 --> 00:05:21,721 ARE WORSE PROBLEMS PLAGUING HUMANITY THAN WAR. 77 00:05:21,721 --> 00:05:27,226 WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND WHY. 78 00:05:27,226 --> 00:05:30,229 Man: IT IS A GREAT, DIFFICULT TASK YOU'RE FACING 79 00:05:30,229 --> 00:05:35,134 TO CONVEY HUMAN BEINGS WHOSE BEHAVIOR SEEMS TO DEFY UNDERSTANDING, 80 00:05:35,134 --> 00:05:37,136 AND THEY WERE BEYOND BELIEF. 81 00:05:37,136 --> 00:05:39,138 Goldhagen, voice-over: IN MY WORK, I HAVE BENEFITED FROM THE WISDOM 82 00:05:39,138 --> 00:05:40,639 OF A VALUED MENTOR, 83 00:05:40,639 --> 00:05:42,141 A SCHOLAR OF GENOCIDE, 84 00:05:42,141 --> 00:05:44,143 AND SURVIVOR OF THE HOLOCAUST. 85 00:05:44,143 --> 00:05:46,145 BUT, YOU KNOW, AT THIS POINT, THOUGH-- 86 00:05:46,145 --> 00:05:48,547 BUT LET ME JUST REMIND YOU... 87 00:05:48,547 --> 00:05:50,549 HE ALSO HAPPENS TO BE MY FATHER. 88 00:05:50,549 --> 00:05:53,052 WHEN THE FIRST NEWS OF THE GAS CHAMBERS CAME, 89 00:05:53,052 --> 00:05:56,555 THE JEWISH COMMUNITY WAS VERY SKEPTICAL OF IT. 90 00:05:56,555 --> 00:05:58,557 RIGHT, BUT WE'RE IN A DIFFERENT TIME NOW. 91 00:05:58,557 --> 00:06:00,493 NOBODY DISBELIEVES THAT THESE THINGS HAPPENED. 92 00:06:00,493 --> 00:06:01,994 THAT'S QUITE TRUE. 93 00:06:01,994 --> 00:06:03,929 WHAT THEY HAVE DIFFICULTY UNDERSTANDING-- 94 00:06:03,929 --> 00:06:05,998 IS WHY IT HAPPENED, YES. 95 00:06:05,998 --> 00:06:09,001 AND ACCEPTING NOTIONS THAT VIOLATE THEIR OWN 96 00:06:09,001 --> 00:06:11,003 COMMON-SENSE UNDERSTANDINGS OF THE WORLD. 97 00:06:11,003 --> 00:06:13,005 THERE'S A CERTAIN PARADOX HERE 98 00:06:13,005 --> 00:06:16,008 BECAUSE SOMETIMES ONE ACCEPTS VERY HIGHLY, 99 00:06:16,008 --> 00:06:19,011 SEEMINGLY ORIGINAL, PROFOUND THEORIES, 100 00:06:19,011 --> 00:06:23,616 AND SOMETIMES THE EXPLANATION IS RELATIVELY SIMPLE. 101 00:06:23,616 --> 00:06:26,619 I THINK THE ACTUAL EXPLANATIONS ARE-- 102 00:06:26,619 --> 00:06:29,121 ARE THREATENING AND UNSETTLING TO PEOPLE. 103 00:06:29,121 --> 00:06:32,625 THE NOTION THAT ORDINARY PEOPLE WOULD WILLFULLY BUTCHER OTHER PEOPLE, 104 00:06:32,625 --> 00:06:35,161 TORTURE THEM, INCLUDING CHILDREN, SLAUGHTER THEM, 105 00:06:35,161 --> 00:06:37,863 IS A VERY DISTURBING NOTION TO PEOPLE, 106 00:06:37,863 --> 00:06:40,366 PARTICULARLY IF THEY'RE LOOKING UPON PEOPLE WITH WHOM THEY IDENTIFY. 107 00:06:40,366 --> 00:06:42,568 SO THEY SEEK EXPLANATIONS WHICH ARE MORE-- 108 00:06:42,568 --> 00:06:45,571 I WOULDN'T SAY MORE COMFORTING, BUT LESS THREATENING TO THEM... 109 00:06:45,571 --> 00:06:48,574 Goldhagen, voice-over: AS EARLY AS I CAN REMEMBER THINKING SERIOUS THOUGHTS, 110 00:06:48,574 --> 00:06:52,445 MY FATHER AND I HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THESE THINGS. 111 00:06:52,445 --> 00:06:56,949 AS A SCHOLAR, HE JOURNEYED INTO THE DARKEST CHAPTERS OF THE HUMAN EXPERIENCE, 112 00:06:56,949 --> 00:07:01,387 SEEKING TO UNDERSTAND NOT ONLY WHAT HAPPENED, BUT WHY. 113 00:07:01,387 --> 00:07:05,391 NOW I AM CONTINUING THE JOURNEY HE BEGAN, 114 00:07:05,391 --> 00:07:18,604 A JOURNEY THAT IN A SENSE, I HAVE BEEN ON MY ENTIRE LIFE. 115 00:07:18,604 --> 00:07:24,110 PEOPLE NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT NOTHING IS INEVITABLE ABOUT GENOCIDE. 116 00:07:24,110 --> 00:07:32,618 IT BOILS DOWN TO A SERIES OF CHOICES. 117 00:07:32,618 --> 00:07:35,855 LEADERS CHOOSE TO INITIATE THE KILLING, 118 00:07:35,855 --> 00:07:42,361 ORDINARY PEOPLE MAKE A CONSCIOUS CHOICE TO PARTICIPATE... 119 00:07:42,361 --> 00:07:45,364 AND THOSE WITH THE POWER TO PREVENT OR STOP IT 120 00:07:45,364 --> 00:07:50,636 CHOOSE TO DO NOTHING. 121 00:07:50,636 --> 00:07:53,139 I STUDY GENOCIDES BECAUSE I BELIEVE 122 00:07:53,139 --> 00:07:56,142 THE MORE WE KNOW ABOUT HOW AND WHY GENOCIDES HAPPEN, 123 00:07:56,142 --> 00:07:58,744 THE MORE WE CAN GET POLITICAL LEADERS 124 00:07:58,744 --> 00:08:04,116 AND ORDINARY PEOPLE TO MAKE DIFFERENT CHOICES. 125 00:08:04,116 --> 00:08:07,186 IMAGINE IF ONE DAY, PEOPLE IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD 126 00:08:07,186 --> 00:08:15,060 WERE DRAGGED OUT OF THEIR HOMES AND KILLED IN THE STREET. 127 00:08:15,060 --> 00:08:18,063 YOU WOULD WANT THE KILLERS STOPPED AND PUNISHED, 128 00:08:18,063 --> 00:08:22,902 AND YOU WOULD WANT TO KNOW THAT IT WOULD NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN. 129 00:08:22,902 --> 00:08:25,404 WHY SHOULD IT BE ANY DIFFERENT 130 00:08:25,404 --> 00:08:29,542 WHEN THE VICTIMS ARE SOMEWHERE ELSE? 131 00:08:29,542 --> 00:08:32,044 LIKE THE PEOPLE IN YOUR COMMUNITY, 132 00:08:32,044 --> 00:08:34,747 EACH GENOCIDE VICTIM IS AN INDIVIDUAL. 133 00:08:34,747 --> 00:08:43,022 A FATHER, A MOTHER, A DAUGHTER, A SON. 134 00:08:43,022 --> 00:08:47,426 AS A SCHOLAR, I SPEND MOST OF MY TIME IN ARCHIVES AND LIBRARIES. 135 00:08:47,426 --> 00:08:51,931 BUT OVER THE PAST YEAR, I TRAVELED TO THESE "SOMEWHERE ELSES," 136 00:08:51,931 --> 00:08:56,068 THE SITES OF SOME OF THE WORST MASS MURDERS OF OUR TIME. 137 00:08:56,068 --> 00:09:02,007 [BIRDS CHIRPING] 138 00:09:02,007 --> 00:09:07,580 [DOOR CLANGS] 139 00:09:07,580 --> 00:09:13,586 IT'S BEEN DECADES STUDYING NAZIS AND THE HOLOCAUST, GENOCIDE, 140 00:09:13,586 --> 00:09:23,462 BUT I'VE NEVER BEEN IN A GAS CHAMBER BEFORE. 141 00:09:23,462 --> 00:09:25,464 I STARTED MY JOURNEY MINDFUL 142 00:09:25,464 --> 00:09:28,467 THAT THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A TIME DURING THE PAST CENTURY 143 00:09:28,467 --> 00:09:31,971 WHEN OUR PLANET WAS FREE OF MASS MURDER, 144 00:09:31,971 --> 00:09:33,973 INCLUDING NOW. 145 00:09:33,973 --> 00:09:35,474 Woman: FOR 5 LONG YEARS, 146 00:09:35,474 --> 00:09:38,978 DARFUR HAS BEEN A SCENE OF DEVASTATION AND DESTRUCTION. 147 00:09:38,978 --> 00:09:41,480 300,000 PEOPLE HAVE DIED 148 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:43,983 AND 2.5 MILLION HAVE FLED THEIR HOMES 149 00:09:43,983 --> 00:09:46,986 AS THE SUDANESE GOVERNMENT HAS TRIED TO CRUSH A REBELLION 150 00:09:46,986 --> 00:09:49,488 AGAINST ITS RULE. 151 00:09:49,488 --> 00:09:53,993 Goldhagen: THE PLIGHT OF DARFUR HAS MOVED PEOPLE OF CONSCIENCE AROUND THE WORLD 152 00:09:53,993 --> 00:09:59,265 AND HAS ONLY INTENSIFIED MY DESIRE TO KNOW MORE... 153 00:09:59,265 --> 00:10:02,768 TO SEE THE PLACES WHERE THE HORRORS HAVE HAPPENED, 154 00:10:02,768 --> 00:10:05,204 MEET THE PEOPLE WHO WERE THERE, 155 00:10:05,204 --> 00:10:08,707 AND ASK THE KINDS OF QUESTIONS YOU HAVE TO ASK, 156 00:10:08,707 --> 00:10:15,714 EVEN THOUGH SOMETIMES YOU MAY DREAD HEARING THE ANSWER. 157 00:10:15,714 --> 00:10:18,717 Goldhagen: WHEN THE GENOCIDE BEGAN, WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU? 158 00:10:18,717 --> 00:10:20,719 [TRANSLATOR SPEAKING NATIVE LANGUAGE] 159 00:10:20,719 --> 00:10:31,897 AND HER FAMILY. 160 00:10:31,897 --> 00:10:34,400 SHE SAID HER DAD WAS KILLED LIKE-- 161 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:40,539 HE WAS, YOU KNOW, CHOPPED. HE WAS CUT WITH A MACHETE. 162 00:10:40,539 --> 00:10:43,042 AND THE MOM WAS CHOPPED. THAT WHAT SHE'S SAYING 163 00:10:43,042 --> 00:10:48,580 IS SHE WAS CHOPPED WITH A MACHETE. 164 00:10:48,580 --> 00:10:52,685 AND THE BROTHER WAS, ALSO. 165 00:10:52,685 --> 00:10:54,353 WHO KILLED HER FAMILY? 166 00:10:54,353 --> 00:10:56,188 WERE THESE JUST LOCAL PEOPLE WHO LIVE THROUGH HERE? 167 00:10:56,188 --> 00:11:01,860 [TRANSLATOR SPEAKS NATIVE LANGUAGE] 168 00:11:01,860 --> 00:11:03,562 SHE SAYS THEY WERE NEIGHBORS. 169 00:11:03,562 --> 00:11:18,510 MOST OF THAT, THEY WERE EVEN FRIENDS TO THE FAMILY. 170 00:11:18,510 --> 00:11:22,548 [COW BELLOWS] 171 00:11:22,548 --> 00:11:25,050 Goldhagen: IN GENOCIDE AFTER GENOCIDE, 172 00:11:25,050 --> 00:11:28,053 THESE ARE THE QUESTIONS THAT CONTINUE TO BE ASKED: 173 00:11:28,053 --> 00:11:31,390 HOW DO NEIGHBORS END UP TURNING AGAINST NEIGHBORS? 174 00:11:31,390 --> 00:11:35,561 WHY DO THE KILLERS KILL? 175 00:11:35,561 --> 00:11:37,563 HERE IN RWANDA, 176 00:11:37,563 --> 00:11:41,066 MORE THAN 800,000 MEN, WOMEN, AND CHILDREN 177 00:11:41,066 --> 00:11:46,071 WERE KILLED OVER THE COURSE OF 3 MONTHS. 178 00:11:46,071 --> 00:11:48,240 MOST WERE ETHNIC TUTSI, 179 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:51,243 MURDERED BY MEMBERS OF THE HUTU MAJORITY, 180 00:11:51,243 --> 00:11:54,246 FACE TO FACE WITH MACHETES, 181 00:11:54,246 --> 00:11:59,752 CLUBS, AND GUNS. 182 00:11:59,752 --> 00:12:29,014 HITLER'S GAS CHAMBERS DID NOT KILL WITH SUCH DEADLY EFFICIENCY. 183 00:12:29,014 --> 00:12:31,517 Goldhagen: WHEN PEOPLE KILLED THE VICTIMS, 184 00:12:31,517 --> 00:12:35,020 DID THEY TRY TO KILL THEM AS PAINLESSLY AS POSSIBLE 185 00:12:35,020 --> 00:12:37,523 OR DID THEY TRY TO MAKE THEM SUFFER? 186 00:12:37,523 --> 00:13:04,450 [TRANSLATOR SPEAKING NATIVE LANGUAGE] 187 00:13:04,450 --> 00:13:08,020 Goldhagen: I FIND IT HARD TO UNDERSTAND, AND I WANT TO UNDERSTAND, 188 00:13:08,020 --> 00:13:11,023 HOW PEOPLE COULD APPROACH OTHER PEOPLE, 189 00:13:11,023 --> 00:13:15,027 WHO ARE BEGGING FOR THEIR LIVES AND SCREAMING IN PAIN, 190 00:13:15,027 --> 00:13:26,738 AND CHOP THEM. 191 00:13:26,738 --> 00:13:28,240 IT'S A VERY TOUGH QUESTION TO ANSWER 192 00:13:28,240 --> 00:14:42,014 BECAUSE THEY HAVE THE SAME FLESH, LIKE YOURS. 193 00:14:42,014 --> 00:14:46,018 ELIE'S WORD--CRUELTY-- COULD NOT BE MORE ACCURATE. 194 00:14:46,018 --> 00:14:49,521 CRUELTY IS AT THE HEART OF GENOCIDE. 195 00:14:49,521 --> 00:14:53,025 THE KILLERS DON'T JUST ERADICATE THE TARGETED PEOPLE, 196 00:14:53,025 --> 00:14:56,028 BUT BRUTALIZE THEM IN WAYS THAT FAR EXCEED 197 00:14:56,028 --> 00:15:00,966 WHAT IS NEEDED TO KILL THEM. 198 00:15:00,966 --> 00:15:07,039 I SEE THE EVIDENCE OF SUCH CRUELTY EVERYWHERE I GO. 199 00:15:07,039 --> 00:15:11,043 I CAME TO GUATEMALA, WHERE A MASSIVE EFFORT HAS BEEN UNDERWAY 200 00:15:11,043 --> 00:15:15,547 TO LITERALLY UNCOVER THE TRUTH ABOUT THE GOVERNMENT'S MASS SLAUGHTER 201 00:15:15,547 --> 00:15:24,356 OF 200,000 INDIGENOUS MAYA DURING THE 1980s. 202 00:15:24,356 --> 00:15:28,860 OUTSIDE GUATEMALA, FEW PEOPLE EVEN KNOW ABOUT THE GENOCIDE. 203 00:15:28,860 --> 00:15:39,705 Suasnavar: BUENOS DIAS. 204 00:15:39,705 --> 00:16:27,152 Goldhagen: DO WE KNOW--IS THIS A FAMILY OR TWO FAMILIES? ARE THERE ADULTS? 205 00:16:27,152 --> 00:16:28,654 Goldhagen: IN THESE HILLS, 206 00:16:28,654 --> 00:16:32,157 THE GUATEMALAN MILITARY CONDUCTED A SCORCHED-EARTH CAMPAIGN 207 00:16:32,157 --> 00:16:36,561 AGAINST MAYA AND LEFTIST INSURGENTS. 208 00:16:36,561 --> 00:16:39,564 THE MAYAN PEOPLE, THEY SAID, WERE INHERENTLY SUBVERSIVE 209 00:16:39,564 --> 00:16:47,606 AND AN IMPEDIMENT TO PROGRESS. 210 00:16:47,606 --> 00:16:49,941 THE GOVERNMENT STRATEGY WAS SUMMED UP 211 00:16:49,941 --> 00:16:52,944 IN A GRIM APHORISM OF THE TIME-- 212 00:16:52,944 --> 00:17:01,620 "TO KILL THE FISH, YOU HAVE TO DRAIN THE POND." 213 00:17:01,620 --> 00:17:05,123 HERE, IN THE MOUNTAIN HAMLET OF PLAN DE SANCHEZ, 214 00:17:05,123 --> 00:17:27,379 THEY DRAINED THE POND ON JULY 18, 1982. 215 00:17:27,379 --> 00:17:31,249 Woman: THE MILITARY WOULD SEPARATE THE WOMEN AND THE MEN. 216 00:17:31,249 --> 00:17:35,253 SOMETIMES THEY WOULD TAKE THE INFANTS OUT OF THE WOMEN'S ARMS 217 00:17:35,253 --> 00:17:37,723 AND SIMPLY SMASH THEM ON THE GROUND, 218 00:17:37,723 --> 00:17:39,958 KILL THEM RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF EVERYBODY. 219 00:17:39,958 --> 00:17:41,960 THEY CUT TONGUES OUT. 220 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:43,962 THEY OPENED PREGNANT WOMEN'S BELLIES 221 00:17:43,962 --> 00:17:46,465 AND DASHED FETUSES AGAINST TREES. 222 00:17:46,465 --> 00:17:49,468 THEY BURNED PEOPLE ALIVE. 223 00:17:49,468 --> 00:17:53,004 WE KNOW THIS BECAUSE THERE WERE PEOPLE 224 00:17:53,004 --> 00:17:57,509 WHO, EVEN IN THE MIDST OF THIS MAYHEM AND MASS KILLING, 225 00:17:57,509 --> 00:18:00,011 SOMEHOW MANAGED TO HIDE-- BEHIND A DOOR, 226 00:18:00,011 --> 00:18:04,416 UNDERNEATH A PILE OF CORN HUSKS-- 227 00:18:04,416 --> 00:19:23,361 AND WATCH. 228 00:19:23,361 --> 00:19:26,364 Goldhagen: ONLY ONCE I GOT TO GUATEMALA DID I REALIZE 229 00:19:26,364 --> 00:19:29,367 HOW REMOTE THESE MOUNTAIN VILLAGES REALLY ARE. 230 00:19:29,367 --> 00:19:32,504 GOVERNMENT LEADERS CALL THESE SUBSISTENCE FARMERS 231 00:19:32,504 --> 00:19:35,407 A THREAT TO THE WELL-BEING OF THE COUNTRY, 232 00:19:35,407 --> 00:19:39,411 BUT THEY DID NOT POSE A THREAT TO ANYONE. 233 00:19:39,411 --> 00:20:53,285 THE GUATEMALAN PERPETRATORS OBLITERATED ONE SUCH COMMUNITY AFTER ANOTHER. 234 00:20:53,285 --> 00:20:58,256 Goldhagen: EVERYWHERE I GO, THE FACES OF CHILDREN HAUNT ME THE MOST. 235 00:20:58,256 --> 00:21:00,692 I HAVE CHILDREN, TOO, 236 00:21:00,692 --> 00:21:03,862 AND IT'S HARD NOT TO THINK ABOUT THEM AS I HEAR STORIES 237 00:21:03,862 --> 00:21:07,432 OVER AND OVER ABOUT THE CRUELTY CHILDREN SUFFERED. 238 00:21:07,432 --> 00:21:11,436 ...WHEN THEY KILLED ABOUT 177 PEOPLE, 239 00:21:11,436 --> 00:21:13,939 MOST OF THEM CHILDREN AND THE OTHERS WOMEN. 240 00:21:13,939 --> 00:21:17,442 SO THERE WASN'T A SINGLE ADULT MALE, SO WHICH CAN-- 241 00:21:17,442 --> 00:21:19,945 YOU KNOW, YOU CAN SAY LETS YOU UNDERSTAND 242 00:21:19,945 --> 00:21:21,947 THAT THESE ARE NOT COMBAT DEATHS. 243 00:21:21,947 --> 00:21:24,950 OH, NO. YEAH, YOU KNOW, IT'S VERY COMMON IN MASS MURDERS 244 00:21:24,950 --> 00:21:24,950 FOR THE PERPETRATORS TO DO THIS TO CHILDREN... 245 00:21:24,950 --> 00:21:27,452 YEAH. 246 00:21:27,452 --> 00:21:29,454 AFTER RWANDA AND THE HOLOCAUST. 247 00:21:29,454 --> 00:21:32,958 Goldhagen, voice-over: FREDY PECCERELLI, A GUATEMALAN NATIVE RAISED IN AMERICA, 248 00:21:32,958 --> 00:21:35,961 IS IN CHARGE OF COLLECTING AND CATALOGUING THE BONES. 249 00:21:35,961 --> 00:21:38,463 THEY PORTRAY A MESSAGE. WHEN THEY DO THIS, 250 00:21:38,463 --> 00:21:41,466 THEY ARE ALSO KILLING THE SEED OF EVIL, ACCORDING TO THEM, 251 00:21:41,466 --> 00:21:43,401 WHETHER IT BE IN NAZI GERMANY 252 00:21:43,401 --> 00:21:45,904 OR WHETHER IT BE IN GUATEMALA IN THE 1980s. 253 00:21:45,904 --> 00:21:49,908 BUT THIS IS THE BONE LAB OF THE FORENSIC ANTHROPOLOGY LABORATORY. 254 00:21:49,908 --> 00:21:52,811 FREDY IS AMASSING A RECORD OF THE ATROCITIES 255 00:21:52,811 --> 00:21:54,879 COMMITTED BY THE GUATEMALAN PERPETRATORS... 256 00:21:54,879 --> 00:21:56,514 BUT THE FIRST STAGE AFTER THE... 257 00:21:56,514 --> 00:22:00,018 AND PROVIDING THE VICTIMS' FAMILIES WITH THE REMAINS TO BURY PROPERLY. 258 00:22:00,018 --> 00:22:02,954 Peccerelli: THE BONES HOLD THE STORY 259 00:22:02,954 --> 00:22:05,924 OF WHAT HAPPENED TO A PERSON DURING THEIR LIFE 260 00:22:05,924 --> 00:22:08,927 AND MIGHT EVEN TELL US WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM 261 00:22:08,927 --> 00:22:10,929 DURING THE EVENT OF THEIR DEATH 262 00:22:10,929 --> 00:22:12,731 AND EVEN WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM AFTER DEATH. 263 00:22:12,731 --> 00:22:16,735 SO HERE, FOR EXAMPLE, WE CAN SEE...HOW... 264 00:22:16,735 --> 00:22:20,739 AND IF YOU WANT, I'LL ALLOW YOU TO FEEL THE DIFFERENCE SO YOU CAN SEE. 265 00:22:20,739 --> 00:22:23,241 THIS IS A VERY SHARP CUT, AND IF YOU RUN YOUR HAND THROUGH IT, 266 00:22:23,241 --> 00:22:23,241 IT'S VERY, VERY SMOOTH. 267 00:22:23,241 --> 00:22:25,744 MM-HMM. 268 00:22:25,744 --> 00:22:28,913 YOU SEE, THAT WAS CAUSED BY A MACHETE STRIKING 269 00:22:28,913 --> 00:22:32,884 THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE HEAD AND ALSO CUTTING THE ATLAS. 270 00:22:32,884 --> 00:22:35,420 AND, YOU SEE, WHEN YOU MATCH IT UP ANATOMICALLY, 271 00:22:35,420 --> 00:22:35,420 YOU CAN SEE THAT THIS TRAUMA HERE... 272 00:22:35,420 --> 00:22:38,123 RIGHT. 273 00:22:38,123 --> 00:22:40,125 IS RELATED TO THIS STRIKE HERE, 274 00:22:40,125 --> 00:22:42,861 AND BASICALLY WHAT THEY TRIED TO DO HERE IS DECAPITATE THE PERSON. 275 00:22:42,861 --> 00:22:45,363 NOW, WHAT WE'VE SEEN USUALLY IS THAT 276 00:22:45,363 --> 00:22:48,366 THESE PEOPLE WERE NOT VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE OF ANATOMY, 277 00:22:48,366 --> 00:22:51,036 SO THE DECAPITATIONS, AS YOU'D EXPECT, 278 00:22:51,036 --> 00:22:54,372 WERE NOT ALWAYS SUCCESSFUL, SO YOU HAVE REPEATED BLOWS TO THE HEAD. 279 00:22:54,372 --> 00:22:56,941 SOMEBODY'S TRYING TO SEPARATE THE HEAD FROM THE BODY. 280 00:22:56,941 --> 00:23:00,879 THEY'RE VERY TYPICAL OF OVERKILL AND SOMETIMES OF EVEN CRIMES OF PASSION. 281 00:23:00,879 --> 00:23:02,881 Goldhagen: "OVERKILL"-- THERE'S A WORD 282 00:23:02,881 --> 00:23:05,950 I DON'T THINK I'LL EVER HEAR THE SAME WAY AGAIN. 283 00:23:05,950 --> 00:23:08,453 IF THE KILLERS WERE SIMPLY DOING THEIR DUTY 284 00:23:08,453 --> 00:23:10,955 TO WIPE OUT AN INSURGENCY, AS THEY CLAIM, 285 00:23:10,955 --> 00:23:14,459 THEY WOULD EXECUTE THEIR VICTIMS QUICKLY AND BE DONE WITH IT. 286 00:23:14,459 --> 00:23:19,464 YOU HAVE TO WONDER WHY WE SEE SO MUCH EVIDENCE OF SUCH MURDEROUS PASSION, 287 00:23:19,464 --> 00:23:21,966 ESPECIALLY AGAINST WOMEN AND CHILDREN. 288 00:23:21,966 --> 00:23:24,469 THIS IS A CHILD HERE, A VERY YOUNG CHILD. 289 00:23:24,469 --> 00:23:26,471 I WOULDN'T EVEN DARE TO TELL YOU THE AGE 290 00:23:26,471 --> 00:23:28,973 UNLESS WITH THE ANTHROPOLOGIST WORKING ON THE CASE, 291 00:23:28,973 --> 00:23:31,976 AND YOU CAN COMPARE-- THIS IS THE FIRST RIB. 292 00:23:31,976 --> 00:23:34,979 WOW. 293 00:23:34,979 --> 00:23:37,982 SO...AND IF YOU COMPARE THIS 294 00:23:37,982 --> 00:23:39,984 TO THAT ONE, YOU CAN SEE THE DIFFERENCE. 295 00:23:39,984 --> 00:23:42,487 I MEAN, THE FIRST RIB IS ABOUT THAT BIG, SO THIS IS A VERY, VERY SMALL-- 296 00:23:42,487 --> 00:23:43,988 MAY I SEE THIS? 297 00:23:43,988 --> 00:23:46,491 JUST HOLDING THE TINY LITTLE BONE. 298 00:23:46,491 --> 00:23:50,128 YOU KNOW... 299 00:23:50,128 --> 00:23:52,130 YEAH. SEE, I DON'T KNOW. 300 00:23:52,130 --> 00:23:54,632 I DON'T THINK THERE'S A--A WAY OF... 301 00:23:54,632 --> 00:23:56,634 HUMANLY UNDERSTANDING THIS 302 00:23:56,634 --> 00:24:00,071 BECAUSE IT GOES BEYOND WHAT I BELIEVE HUMANS CAN DO, 303 00:24:00,071 --> 00:24:02,574 BUT OBVIOUSLY--I MEAN, THE MORE I SAY THAT, THE MORE I TEND TO-- 304 00:24:02,574 --> 00:24:04,576 IT'S HARD FOR ME TO BELIEVE 305 00:24:04,576 --> 00:24:06,578 THAT YOU'RE SAYING THIS, GIVEN WHAT YOU-- 306 00:24:06,578 --> 00:24:10,081 BECAUSE I WANT TO BELIEVE THAT WE'RE NOT CAPABLE OF THESE THINGS, 307 00:24:10,081 --> 00:24:12,584 EVEN THOUGH-- I WANT TO BELIEVE THAT THIS IS WRONG. 308 00:24:12,584 --> 00:24:14,586 SO DOING THIS HAS TO BE WRONG. 309 00:24:14,586 --> 00:24:17,088 IF I ACCEPTED THIS AS RIGHT AND IF I EXCUSE IT, 310 00:24:17,088 --> 00:24:23,027 THEN I CAN'T DO THIS ANYMORE. 311 00:24:23,027 --> 00:24:26,898 FREDY IS NOT ALONE. 312 00:24:26,898 --> 00:24:29,534 MOST OF US FIND IT HARD TO COME TO TERMS 313 00:24:29,534 --> 00:24:33,538 WITH THE CAPACITY OF HUMAN BEINGS TO DO SUCH HORRIBLE THINGS TO OTHERS. 314 00:24:33,538 --> 00:24:36,040 BUT WE HAVE TO MAKE SENSE OF IT. 315 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:42,347 AS IRRATIONAL AS THEY SEEM, THESE ARE NOT THE ACTS OF CRAZED INDIVIDUALS. 316 00:24:42,347 --> 00:24:45,350 THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING, 317 00:24:45,350 --> 00:24:49,354 BELIEVE IT'S RIGHT, AND MAKE A CONSCIOUS CHOICE TO ACT. 318 00:24:49,354 --> 00:24:51,356 UH, HELLO. 319 00:24:51,356 --> 00:24:51,356 JA. 320 00:24:51,356 --> 00:24:53,458 ICH BIN DANIEL GOLDHAGEN. 321 00:24:53,458 --> 00:25:49,047 [SPEAKING GERMAN] 322 00:25:49,047 --> 00:25:54,052 Goldhagen: LIKE MOST GERMANS, OTTO-ERNST DUSCHELEIT GREW UP WITH THE WORLD VIEW 323 00:25:54,052 --> 00:25:57,889 IN WHICH HE SAW HIMSELF AS A MEMBER OF THE MASTER RACE, 324 00:25:57,889 --> 00:26:02,327 WHILE MANY OTHERS FELL INTO THE CATEGORY OF SUB-HUMANS OR UNTERMENSCHEN. 325 00:26:02,327 --> 00:26:09,534 [MEN SINGING IN GERMAN] 326 00:26:09,534 --> 00:26:11,536 Goldhagen: WHEN YOU WERE IN SCHOOL... 327 00:26:11,536 --> 00:26:11,536 YES? 328 00:26:11,536 --> 00:26:13,438 WHEN YOU WERE IN THE HITLER YOUTH, 329 00:26:13,438 --> 00:26:15,940 WHAT DID YOU LEARN, FOR EXAMPLE, ABOUT UNTERMENSCHEN? 330 00:26:15,940 --> 00:26:15,940 WHAT DID THAT WORD MEAN TO YOU? 331 00:26:15,940 --> 00:27:36,220 JA, UNTERMENSCHEN. 332 00:27:36,220 --> 00:27:39,724 Goldhagen: IT'S STRIKING THAT IT IS A FORMER SS MAN, 333 00:27:39,724 --> 00:27:42,727 INVOKING ANNE FRANK, WHO MAKES THIS POINT. 334 00:27:42,727 --> 00:27:45,229 IT IS AN IMPORTANT ONE. 335 00:27:45,229 --> 00:27:47,732 IT IS THAT FAILURE TO SEE THE HUMANITY IN OTHERS 336 00:27:47,732 --> 00:27:53,004 WHICH MAKES IT POSSIBLE FOR THE KILLERS TO COMMIT THEIR CRIMES. 337 00:27:53,004 --> 00:27:55,073 I WOULD ADD THAT IT'S THE BELIEF 338 00:27:55,073 --> 00:27:57,575 THAT THOSE OTHERS ARE DANGEROUS ENEMIES 339 00:27:57,575 --> 00:28:10,021 WHICH INSPIRES THE PERPETRATORS TO KILL WITH SUCH ZEAL. 340 00:28:10,021 --> 00:28:13,024 YEARS AGO, I ENCOUNTERED AN EPISODE OF THE HOLOCAUST 341 00:28:13,024 --> 00:28:17,028 WHICH SPOKE VOLUMES ABOUT THE WILLFULNESS AND DEDICATION OF THE KILLERS, 342 00:28:17,028 --> 00:28:22,033 AND I GOT TO KNOW ONE OF THE SURVIVORS, LILLI SILBIGER. 343 00:28:22,033 --> 00:28:26,537 I HAVE A MAP HERE WITH ME WHICH ACTUALLY OUTLINES THE ROUTE 344 00:28:26,537 --> 00:28:30,041 FROM HELMBRECHT TO VOLARY... 345 00:28:30,041 --> 00:28:33,044 Goldhagen, voice-over: IN THE LAST MONTHS OF WORLD WAR II, 346 00:28:33,044 --> 00:28:37,548 AS THE ALLIED FORCES NEARED THE CONCENTRATION CAMPS HOUSING JEWS AND OTHERS, 347 00:28:37,548 --> 00:28:40,518 GERMANS EMPTIED THEIR CAMPS AND DROVE THEIR PRISONERS 348 00:28:40,518 --> 00:28:44,522 ON FORCED MARCHES THROUGH THE NEARBY TOWNS AND COUNTRYSIDE. 349 00:28:44,522 --> 00:28:46,023 [SILBIGER SPEAKING GERMAN] 350 00:28:46,023 --> 00:28:50,027 Goldhagen: THE DEATH MARCHES LEFT A TRAIL OF CORPSES IN THEIR WAKE, 351 00:28:50,027 --> 00:28:53,531 AND THE MARCHING PRISONERS WERE DESCRIBED BY MORE THAN ONE WITNESS 352 00:28:53,531 --> 00:28:56,100 AS "THE WALKING DEAD." 353 00:28:56,100 --> 00:28:59,103 THESE ARE ACTUAL PHOTOS OF THE YOUNG WOMEN 354 00:28:59,103 --> 00:29:13,751 WHO WERE WITH LILLI ON THE MARCH. 355 00:29:13,751 --> 00:29:17,755 ON THE SUMMER DAY LILY REVISITED THE ROUTE OF A DEATH MARCH WITH ME, 356 00:29:17,755 --> 00:29:20,758 THE COUNTRYSIDE WAS BEAUTIFUL. 357 00:29:20,758 --> 00:29:28,766 BUT IN THE SPRING OF 1945, IT WAS COLD AND BLEAK. 358 00:29:28,766 --> 00:29:33,771 LILY'S GUARDS ACTUALLY HAD RECEIVED EXPLICIT ORDERS NOT TO KILL ANY MORE JEWS, 359 00:29:33,771 --> 00:29:37,275 BUT THEY WILLFULLY DEFIED THEIR SUPERIORS. 360 00:29:37,275 --> 00:29:40,778 THEY DROVE HER AND THE OTHERS, STARVING, WEARING NOTHING MORE THAN RAGS, 361 00:29:40,778 --> 00:29:44,148 DAY AFTER DAY THROUGH THE FRIGID COUNTRYSIDE. 362 00:29:44,148 --> 00:29:47,852 SOMETIMES WE WOULDN'T EVEN GET FOOD FOR 24 HOURS, FOR 48 HOURS. 363 00:29:47,852 --> 00:29:50,855 PEOPLE RESORTED TO ANYTHING THAT WAS FOUND 364 00:29:50,855 --> 00:29:54,358 OR ANYTHING ROTTEN THAT WAS--YOU KNOW, YOU JUST GRABBED AT ANYTHING. 365 00:29:54,358 --> 00:29:54,358 AND YOU WERE 16 AT THE TIME? 366 00:29:54,358 --> 00:29:57,361 YEAH. 367 00:29:57,361 --> 00:30:01,966 AND IN ONE PLACE, SOMEONE BROKE INTO A PANTRY 368 00:30:01,966 --> 00:30:05,970 OR SOMEPLACE WHERE WE ARRIVED AND STOLE SOME LOAFS OF BREAD. 369 00:30:05,970 --> 00:30:09,974 AND FOR THAT, THEY SELECTED 50 GIRLS AND KILLED THEM 370 00:30:09,974 --> 00:30:12,477 OVER THE MASS GRAVE THERE. 371 00:30:12,477 --> 00:30:16,981 WE HAD TO COME BACK AND COVER THEM, 372 00:30:16,981 --> 00:30:20,985 AND THERE WERE MANY OF THEM STILL ALIVE WHEN WE HAD TO DO THAT. 373 00:30:20,985 --> 00:30:23,988 SO THEY--YOU HAD TO HELP BURY THEM ALIVE? 374 00:30:23,988 --> 00:30:26,491 WE HAD TO DO-- WE HAD TO PUT-- 375 00:30:26,491 --> 00:30:29,494 YES, THE EARTH, COVER THEM WITH EARTH. 376 00:30:29,494 --> 00:30:34,499 SO THIS WAS THE BIGGEST HORRIBLE... 377 00:30:34,499 --> 00:30:38,503 [VOICE CRACKS] YEAH.... 378 00:30:38,503 --> 00:30:41,506 PERIOD. 379 00:30:41,506 --> 00:30:47,411 [DISTANT ROLLING THUNDER] 380 00:30:47,411 --> 00:30:52,416 ONE OF THE ASTONISHING THINGS IS THAT THEY WERE MARCHING THE JEWISH PRISONERS 381 00:30:52,416 --> 00:30:55,386 LITERALLY THE LAST DAY OF THE WAR. 382 00:30:55,386 --> 00:30:58,389 INSTEAD OF RUNNING AWAY TO AVOID CAPTURE, THEY STAYED WITH THE PRISONERS, 383 00:30:58,389 --> 00:30:58,389 THEY CONTINUED TO DENY THEM FOOD... 384 00:30:58,389 --> 00:31:00,825 ABSOLUTELY. 385 00:31:00,825 --> 00:31:03,761 THEY CONTINUED TO BEAT THEM, THEY CONTINUED TO KILL THEM, 386 00:31:03,761 --> 00:31:10,368 THEY CONTINUED TO DO IT TO THE VERY END. 387 00:31:10,368 --> 00:31:12,503 WE KNEW THE RUSSIANS WERE CLOSING IN THERE, 388 00:31:12,503 --> 00:31:14,505 AND THEN WE HEARD ARTILLERY, 389 00:31:14,505 --> 00:31:17,341 SOME PLANES FLYING OVERHEAD, 390 00:31:17,341 --> 00:31:19,343 HEARD SOME BOMBINGS IN THE DISTANCE, 391 00:31:19,343 --> 00:31:23,047 SO WE KNEW THEY WERE VERY CLOSE. 392 00:31:23,047 --> 00:31:28,553 [EXPLOSIONS, GUNFIRE] 393 00:31:28,553 --> 00:31:33,057 THEY MANAGED FOR SUCH A LONG TIME TO KEEP AHEAD OF THE ALLIES, 394 00:31:33,057 --> 00:31:36,227 GOING NOWHERE, YOU KNOW, TO--A PLACE--TO NOWHERE. 395 00:31:36,227 --> 00:31:39,230 JUST TO DRAG US, JUST TO... 396 00:31:39,230 --> 00:31:42,233 JUST GO IN CIRCLES, ACTUALLY. THAT'S WHAT WAS HAPPENING. 397 00:31:42,233 --> 00:31:45,736 THEY DIDN'T KNOW THEMSELVES WHAT THEY WERE DOING. 398 00:31:45,736 --> 00:31:49,740 THEY COULD HAVE EASILY LEFT US WHEREVER WE WERE 399 00:31:49,740 --> 00:31:52,109 AND JUST DISAPPEAR, AND THEY DIDN'T. 400 00:31:52,109 --> 00:31:56,113 THEY BELIEVED THE JEWS WERE EVIL INCARNATE, AN ENEMY OF HUMANKIND, 401 00:31:56,113 --> 00:32:00,551 A THREAT TO THE WELL-BEING AND FUTURE EXISTENCE OF GERMANY. 402 00:32:00,551 --> 00:32:02,553 AND IF YOU BELIEVE THAT, 403 00:32:02,553 --> 00:32:05,623 JUST AS IF YOU BELIEVE SOMEONE'S ABOUT TO ATTACK YOUR CHILD, 404 00:32:05,623 --> 00:32:09,126 YOU WILL DO ANYTHING YOU CAN. 405 00:32:09,126 --> 00:32:11,262 YEAH. 406 00:32:11,262 --> 00:32:13,264 [CAR HORN HONKS] 407 00:32:13,264 --> 00:32:18,269 EACH OF US TRIES TO MAKE SENSE OF THE HORRORS IN HIS OR HER OWN WAY. 408 00:32:18,269 --> 00:32:22,807 OVER THE YEARS, I HAVE TALKED WITH MANY WHO GRAPPLE OVER THESE ISSUES, 409 00:32:22,807 --> 00:32:26,310 BUT NEVER ONE MORE THOUGHTFUL THAN A MAN I MET IN RWANDA-- 410 00:32:26,310 --> 00:32:30,314 THARCISSE KARUGARAMA, THE COUNTRY'S MINISTER OF JUSTICE. 411 00:32:30,314 --> 00:32:32,817 Goldhagen: HERE WE'RE SPEAKING NOW AS TWO PEOPLE TRYING 412 00:32:32,817 --> 00:32:35,319 TO UNDERSTAND A VERY DIFFICULT SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES: 413 00:32:35,319 --> 00:32:37,922 THE WAYS IN WHICH VICTIMS WERE NOT JUST KILLED 414 00:32:37,922 --> 00:32:41,425 IN, IF WE CAN CALL IT, THE LEAST PAINFUL WAY, 415 00:32:41,425 --> 00:32:44,929 BUT WERE HACKED TO DEATH, WERE TORTURED; 416 00:32:44,929 --> 00:32:48,799 THE ZEAL AND PASSION WITH WHICH THE PERPETRATORS SOUGHT OUT THE VICTIMS. 417 00:32:48,799 --> 00:32:51,535 IT'S NOT EASY TO FIND PEOPLE HIDING IN THE COUNTRYSIDE. 418 00:32:51,535 --> 00:32:54,538 MASS HYSTERIA... 419 00:32:54,538 --> 00:33:00,978 IS VERY DIFFICULT TO EXPLAIN. 420 00:33:00,978 --> 00:33:05,049 PEOPLE HIT A PERIOD WHEN THEY'RE INVOLVED IN MASS HYSTERIA, 421 00:33:05,049 --> 00:33:08,519 WHEN THEY CAN NO LONGER BE ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS. 422 00:33:08,519 --> 00:33:11,188 BUT YOU CERTAINLY DON'T WANT TO TAKE THAT AS A LEGAL POSITION, DO YOU? 423 00:33:11,188 --> 00:33:14,191 NO, DEFINITELY NOT. DEFINITELY NOT. 424 00:33:14,191 --> 00:33:17,695 I'M JUST TRYING TO EXPLAIN BECAUSE I'VE BEEN AROUND 425 00:33:17,695 --> 00:33:20,698 IN THIS JUDICIAL FOR SOME TIME NOW, 426 00:33:20,698 --> 00:33:26,037 AND I'VE MADE ALL SORTS OF CONTRADICTIONS. 427 00:33:26,037 --> 00:33:29,040 SO THE ONE YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT IS A MAJOR CONTRADICTION. 428 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:36,047 THE BRUTALITY WITH WHICH THEY DID THE KILLING IS SHOCKING. 429 00:33:36,047 --> 00:33:40,051 WHAT...ONCE PEOPLE HAD STEPPED BEYOND 430 00:33:40,051 --> 00:33:44,055 THE FIRST STEP OF ACTUALLY KILLING-- 431 00:33:44,055 --> 00:33:47,058 THROWING A CHILD DOWN AND HACKING THEM TO DEATH, 432 00:33:47,058 --> 00:33:50,061 OPENING THE WOMB OF PREGNANT-- 433 00:33:50,061 --> 00:33:52,563 THERE'S NOTHING THAT WAS IF--THAT HE COULDN'T DO 434 00:33:52,563 --> 00:33:56,567 BECAUSE THEY WERE BEING TOLD BY THE PETITIONS 435 00:33:56,567 --> 00:33:59,070 WHO WERE GIVING THEM THE ALCOHOL 436 00:33:59,070 --> 00:34:02,506 THAT "IF YOU DON'T DESTROY THESE PEOPLE, THESE ANIMALS, THESE-- 437 00:34:02,506 --> 00:34:07,078 THEY'RE COMING TO FINISH YOU. NONE OF YOU WILL SURVIVE." 438 00:34:07,078 --> 00:34:10,581 AND THEY HAD BEEN MADE TO BELIEVE IT. 439 00:34:10,581 --> 00:34:13,584 I DON'T WANT TO BE A--TO GIVE AN EXCUSE FOR THEM. 440 00:34:13,584 --> 00:34:17,088 THEY ARE WILLING KILLERS. THERE'S NO DOUBT IN MY MIND. 441 00:34:17,088 --> 00:34:20,591 BUT, SEE, AT THE BACK OF THEIR MIND, THE RADIO IS TELLING THEM, 442 00:34:20,591 --> 00:34:22,093 "THEY'RE COMING TO FINISH YOU. 443 00:34:22,093 --> 00:34:25,596 "IF YOU DON'T KILL THEM YOURSELVES, THEIR PLAN... 444 00:34:25,596 --> 00:34:34,739 IS TO FINISH YOU." 445 00:34:34,739 --> 00:34:37,742 Goldhagen: IN MASSACHUSETTS, I LIVE JUST A FEW MILES 446 00:34:37,742 --> 00:34:40,745 FROM A LARGE COMMUNITY OF CAMBODIAN AMERICANS. 447 00:34:40,745 --> 00:34:44,248 MANY OF THEM ARE SURVIVORS OF THE GENOCIDE THAT TOOK THE LIVES 448 00:34:44,248 --> 00:34:49,253 OF 20% OF CAMBODIA'S POPULATION DURING THE 1970s-- 449 00:34:49,253 --> 00:34:51,622 ONE IN 5 CAMBODIANS. 450 00:34:51,622 --> 00:34:53,624 [MEN SINGING IN NATIVE LANGUAGE] 451 00:34:53,624 --> 00:35:03,067 Goldhagen: IT IS A CHILLING STATISTIC. 452 00:35:03,067 --> 00:35:05,569 IN THE SPRING OF 1975, 453 00:35:05,569 --> 00:35:10,074 A COMMUNIST REBEL GROUP, THE KHMER ROUGE, CONQUERED THE COUNTRY. 454 00:35:10,074 --> 00:35:14,078 THEY WANTED TO TURN CAMBODIA INTO A MARXIST AGRARIAN UTOPIA, 455 00:35:14,078 --> 00:35:19,083 WHICH, TO THEM, MEANT DESTROYING VIRTUALLY ALL VESTIGES OF MODERN CIVILIZATION. 456 00:35:19,083 --> 00:35:21,585 Man: FIRST DAY WHEN THEY MARCH INTO THE CITY, 457 00:35:21,585 --> 00:35:24,588 AND WE'RE SO HAPPY THAT THE WAR IS ENDED. 458 00:35:24,588 --> 00:35:28,592 WE WERE JOYFUL AND WE SAW THE SOLDIER CAME, THE PEACE COME, 459 00:35:28,592 --> 00:35:31,595 AND NO MORE FIGHTING, NO MORE WAR, 460 00:35:31,595 --> 00:35:35,766 AND THEN SUDDENLY EVERYTHING JUST DISAPPEARED. 461 00:35:35,766 --> 00:35:41,071 I SAW A LOT OF SOLDIERS IN BLACK UNIFORMS CLOSE TO MY HOME. 462 00:35:41,071 --> 00:35:43,574 [WHISTLE BLOWS] 463 00:35:43,574 --> 00:35:46,744 THESE SOLDIERS SPRAYED EVERYWHERE, SHOOTING GUNS IN THE AIR 464 00:35:46,744 --> 00:35:49,680 AND ASK, "LET'S GO, LET'S GO." 465 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:55,119 [DISTANT MACHINE GUNFIRE] 466 00:35:55,119 --> 00:36:00,057 Goldhagen: WITHIN 3 DAYS, KHMER ROUGE CADRES EMPTIED CAMBODIA'S CITIES, 467 00:36:00,057 --> 00:36:04,562 FORCING MILLIONS INTO THE RURAL CAMPS THEY CALLED COOPERATIVES, 468 00:36:04,562 --> 00:36:11,135 BUT WHICH CAME TO BE KNOWN TO THE OUTSIDE WORLD AS THE KILLING FIELDS. 469 00:36:11,135 --> 00:36:14,138 Uong: THINK OVER TWO MILE PER DAY, 3 MILE PER DAY 470 00:36:14,138 --> 00:36:17,141 THAT WE COULDN'T MOVE BECAUSE OF SO MANY PEOPLE. 471 00:36:17,141 --> 00:36:20,144 AND ALONG THE ROAD ARE BODIES ALONG THE ROAD EVERYWHERE. 472 00:36:20,144 --> 00:36:26,250 THEY JUST-- THE SCENE IS JUST AWFUL. 473 00:36:26,250 --> 00:36:30,254 Goldhagen: THE EXTENT OF THEIR VIOLENT TRANSFORMATION OF CAMBODIAN SOCIETY 474 00:36:30,254 --> 00:36:34,758 STILL BOGGLES THE MIND. 475 00:36:34,758 --> 00:36:39,763 AND IT WAS ALL BEGUN BY ONE MAN, KNOWN AS POL POT, 476 00:36:39,763 --> 00:36:44,268 SUPPORTED BY A SMALL INNER CIRCLE. 477 00:36:44,268 --> 00:36:47,771 GENOCIDE IS ALWAYS THE DECISION OF ONE LEADER 478 00:36:47,771 --> 00:36:50,274 OR A SMALL GROUP OF LEADERS. 479 00:36:50,274 --> 00:36:53,777 THESE INDIVIDUALS MAKE A CHOICE TO INITIATE THE KILLING, 480 00:36:53,777 --> 00:36:58,282 WHICH, IN EVERY CASE, MEANS THEY COULD HAVE ALSO CHOSEN NOT TO. 481 00:36:58,282 --> 00:37:04,154 THE LEADERS' GOALS VARY, DEPENDING ON THE TIME, PLACE, AND CIRCUMSTANCES: 482 00:37:04,154 --> 00:37:09,894 POL POT WANTED TO RADICALLY TRANSFORM CAMBODIAN SOCIETY; 483 00:37:09,894 --> 00:37:15,633 THE TURKISH LEADER MEHMED TALAAT WANTED TO SECURE TURKEY'S DECAYING EMPIRE; 484 00:37:15,633 --> 00:37:20,137 ADOLF HITLER WANTED TO CREATE A VAST POLITICAL EMPIRE 485 00:37:20,137 --> 00:37:23,040 RULED BY THE GERMAN MASTER RACE; 486 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:26,543 COLONEL THEONISTE BAGOSORA AND HIS FELLOW HUTU LEADERS 487 00:37:26,543 --> 00:37:31,115 WANTED TO SECURE POLITICAL POWER IN RWANDA FOR THE HUTU; 488 00:37:31,115 --> 00:37:33,117 AND IN THE BALKANS, 489 00:37:33,117 --> 00:37:38,489 SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC WANTED TO PERMANENTLY REDRAW THE POLITICAL MAP OF THE REGION. 490 00:37:38,489 --> 00:37:41,091 GENOCIDE IS ALWAYS POLITICS. 491 00:37:41,091 --> 00:37:43,627 OF COURSE, THERE ARE POLITICAL GOALS. 492 00:37:43,627 --> 00:37:46,630 THOSE POLITICAL GOALS CAN BE REACHED IN DIFFERENT WAYS. 493 00:37:46,630 --> 00:37:51,568 SOME PEOPLE THINK THAT EXTERMINATING A GROUP WILL HELP THEIR GOALS, 494 00:37:51,568 --> 00:37:53,604 SO THAT'S WHY THEY DO IT. 495 00:37:53,604 --> 00:37:56,907 SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC THOUGHT AT THAT TIME, 496 00:37:56,907 --> 00:38:01,345 THAT HE COULD, BECAUSE OF THE OVERWHELMING MILITARY POWER, 497 00:38:01,345 --> 00:38:18,829 MAKE SOME TERRITORIAL GAINS IN CROATIA AND BOSNIA, SO HE ATTACKED. 498 00:38:18,829 --> 00:38:21,832 [MEN SPEAKING INDISTINCTLY] 499 00:38:21,832 --> 00:38:24,368 Silajdzic: THE FULFILLING OF THEIR MISSION... 500 00:38:24,368 --> 00:38:26,370 [EXPLOSION] 501 00:38:26,370 --> 00:38:30,374 WAS...TO MAKE A GREATER SERBIA. 502 00:38:30,374 --> 00:38:32,876 IN ORDER TO MAKE GREATER SERBIA, 503 00:38:32,876 --> 00:38:37,614 YOU HAD TO EXTERMINATE PEOPLE IN YOUR WAY. 504 00:38:37,614 --> 00:38:40,117 Man: SERBIA'S RIGHT THERE ACROSS THE DRINA RIVER, 505 00:38:40,117 --> 00:38:45,122 AND LOTS OF SERB-CONTROLLED TERRITORY IN THE CENTRAL PART OF THE COUNTRY, 506 00:38:45,122 --> 00:38:48,359 THEY WANTED TO LINK THOSE TWO ZONES, RIGHT? 507 00:38:48,359 --> 00:38:52,863 BUT IF YOU HAD LARGE-- A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF MUSLIMS 508 00:38:52,863 --> 00:38:56,867 ALONG THE WESTERN BANKS OF THAT RIVER, 509 00:38:56,867 --> 00:39:01,305 YOU HAD A KIND OF BARRIER BETWEEN THOSE TWO SERBIAN AREAS, 510 00:39:01,305 --> 00:39:03,307 SO THESE PEOPLE HAD TO BE ELIMINATED. 511 00:39:03,307 --> 00:39:05,876 Silajdzic: THESE THINGS ARE DONE IN COLD BLOOD. 512 00:39:05,876 --> 00:39:08,879 THIS IS A DESIGN. THIS IS A PLAN. 513 00:39:08,879 --> 00:39:10,881 THIS IS A CALCULATION, OF COURSE. 514 00:39:10,881 --> 00:39:13,717 THIS IS NOT A REACTION TO SOMETHING. 515 00:39:13,717 --> 00:39:18,722 THIS IS--THIS, UNFORTUNATELY, HERE IS A PLANNED GENOCIDE, 516 00:39:18,722 --> 00:39:21,225 AS IS ANY OTHER GENOCIDE 517 00:39:21,225 --> 00:39:24,728 BECAUSE IT'S NOT POSSIBLE TO KILL A BIG NUMBER OF PEOPLE 518 00:39:24,728 --> 00:39:27,731 WITHOUT PRIOR PREPARATION: 519 00:39:27,731 --> 00:39:29,733 MENTAL PREPARATION, 520 00:39:29,733 --> 00:39:32,236 INTELLECTUAL PREPARATION, 521 00:39:32,236 --> 00:39:34,738 MILITARY PREPARATION. 522 00:39:34,738 --> 00:39:37,741 Goldhagen: PRESIDENT SILAJDZIC IS RIGHT. 523 00:39:37,741 --> 00:39:41,745 THERE'S A MISCONCEPTION THAT GENOCIDES ERUPT SPONTANEOUSLY 524 00:39:41,745 --> 00:39:44,782 OUT OF DEEP-SEATED PASSIONS OR ETHNIC CONFLICTS. 525 00:39:44,782 --> 00:39:51,088 BUT THERE IS NOTHING SPONTANEOUS ABOUT GENOCIDE. 526 00:39:51,088 --> 00:39:53,590 IN THIS VILLA IN THE SUBURBS OF BERLIN, 527 00:39:53,590 --> 00:39:56,593 THE NAZI LEADERSHIP DISCUSSED THEIR DETAILED PLANS 528 00:39:56,593 --> 00:40:01,098 TO EXTERMINATE THE JEWS OF EUROPE. 529 00:40:01,098 --> 00:40:04,101 THESE TYPEWRITTEN MINUTES DOCUMENT THE MEETING 530 00:40:04,101 --> 00:40:09,606 AND LIST COUNTRY BY COUNTRY THE 11 MILLION JEWS THEY PLAN TO KILL. 531 00:40:09,606 --> 00:40:12,609 ONE OF THOSE WAS ERICH GOLDHAGEN, 532 00:40:12,609 --> 00:40:16,613 THE 10-YEAR-OLD BOY IN WHAT WAS THEN ROMANIA, NOW UKRAINE, 533 00:40:16,613 --> 00:40:19,216 WHO WOULD GROW UP TO BECOME MY FATHER. 534 00:40:19,216 --> 00:40:22,219 THE NAZI VICTORY WOULD HAVE BEEN TANTAMOUNT, EVEN WORSE, 535 00:40:22,219 --> 00:40:24,721 THAN--IT WOULD BE LIKE A NUCLEAR WAR, ALMOST. 536 00:40:24,721 --> 00:40:24,721 THE DESTRUCTION WOULD BE... 537 00:40:24,721 --> 00:40:26,723 MM-HMM. 538 00:40:26,723 --> 00:40:31,228 IT IS PERHAPS EASIER TO RECOVER FROM A NUCLEAR ASSAULT 539 00:40:31,228 --> 00:40:34,798 THAN IT WOULD BE FROM A NAZI VICTORY. 540 00:40:34,798 --> 00:40:38,302 Goldhagen: I'VE ASKED HIM TO JOIN ME ON PART OF MY JOURNEY 541 00:40:38,302 --> 00:40:41,305 TO RETURN TO WHERE HE LIVED DURING THE HOLOCAUST. 542 00:40:41,305 --> 00:40:41,305 SO HAVE YOU TALKED TO MOM ABOUT OUR TRIP TO CZERNOWITZ? 543 00:40:41,305 --> 00:40:44,308 YES. 544 00:40:44,308 --> 00:40:47,311 SHE IS VERY ENTHUSIASTIC ABOUT IT. SHE ENCOURAGES ME TO GO. 545 00:40:47,311 --> 00:40:50,814 YOU KNOW, MOM IS ALWAYS SOMEONE IN BELIEVING-- 546 00:40:50,814 --> 00:40:55,819 SHE BELIEVES THAT THE PAST HAS TO BE PRESERVED AND REMEMBERED, 547 00:40:55,819 --> 00:41:02,759 AND SHE HAS HELPED ME OVERCOME MY NATURAL RELUCTANCE TO GO. 548 00:41:02,759 --> 00:41:05,262 YOU KNOW, WHEN I TOLD HER THAT SHE HAD TO WORK ON YOU, 549 00:41:05,262 --> 00:41:08,265 SHE SAID SHE NEVER WORKS ON YOU. HA HA! 550 00:41:08,265 --> 00:41:10,767 BUT I KNEW I HAD AN ALLY. 551 00:41:10,767 --> 00:41:14,037 IN A VERY SUBTLE WAY, YOU KNOW, SHE WORKS ON ME. 552 00:41:14,037 --> 00:41:16,540 ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS TO ENVISION 553 00:41:16,540 --> 00:41:20,043 WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF HITLER HAD WON THE WAR. 554 00:41:20,043 --> 00:41:23,547 THERE WOULD BE MASS GRAVES EVERYWHERE, VAST CONCENTRATION CAMPS, 555 00:41:23,547 --> 00:41:27,551 AND WHAT I CALL IN GREEK A NECROPOLIS, A CITY OF DEATH. 556 00:41:27,551 --> 00:41:31,054 AND EVEN GERMANY ITSELF WOULD HAVE BEEN TRANSFORMED, 557 00:41:31,054 --> 00:41:33,557 BUT MOST GERMANS UNDERSTAND THIS, 558 00:41:33,557 --> 00:41:35,559 THAT HITLER WOULD HAVE DONE TO GERMANY THINGS 559 00:41:35,559 --> 00:41:38,061 WHICH EVEN THE WORST ENEMY OF GERMANY WOULDN'T HAVE DONE. 560 00:41:38,061 --> 00:41:42,065 HE WOULD HAVE DESTROYED THE CHRISTIAN CHURCHES, DESTROYED THE CHURCHES, 561 00:41:42,065 --> 00:41:46,036 KILLED THE INSANE, AND ABOVE ALL, AND THIS IS THE IMPORTANT POINT, 562 00:41:46,036 --> 00:42:08,825 HE WOULD HAVE CONVERTED THE YOUNGER GENERATION INTO A RACE OF BARBARIANS. 563 00:42:08,825 --> 00:42:12,329 Goldhagen: THERE IS A WIDELY HELD MISCONCEPTION 564 00:42:12,329 --> 00:42:15,065 THAT THE GERMANS' EFFICIENCY AND TECHNOLOGY-- 565 00:42:15,065 --> 00:42:17,067 THE TRAINS AND THE GAS CHAMBERS-- 566 00:42:17,067 --> 00:42:21,505 MADE IT POSSIBLE FOR THEM TO KILL SO MANY SO QUICKLY. 567 00:42:21,505 --> 00:42:24,508 AS WE'VE SEEN IN RWANDA AND ELSEWHERE, 568 00:42:24,508 --> 00:42:28,679 LEADERS DO NOT NEED SOPHISTICATED TECHNOLOGY TO KILL ON A VAST SCALE. 569 00:42:28,679 --> 00:42:30,914 [MEN SHOUTING IN NATIVE LANGUAGE] 570 00:42:30,914 --> 00:42:34,084 IT IS THE WILL, AND NOT THE WAY, 571 00:42:34,084 --> 00:42:36,186 THAT IS CRITICAL. 572 00:42:36,186 --> 00:42:37,688 [MEN SINGING] 573 00:42:37,688 --> 00:42:42,192 IN RWANDA, THE HUTU LEADERS DID WHAT ALL GENOCIDAL LEADERS DO. 574 00:42:42,192 --> 00:42:47,197 THEY TAPPED INTO THE PREJUDICES AND BELIEFS THAT PEOPLE ALREADY HELD. 575 00:42:47,197 --> 00:42:50,033 GENERATIONS OF HUTU HAD GROWN UP BEING TAUGHT 576 00:42:50,033 --> 00:43:18,228 THAT THE TUTSI ARE DANGEROUS AND INHUMAN. 577 00:43:18,228 --> 00:43:20,230 [RADIO STATIC] 578 00:43:20,230 --> 00:43:43,253 [MAN SPEAKING NATIVE LANGUAGE] 579 00:43:43,253 --> 00:43:49,993 [MEN SINGING IN NATIVE LANGUAGE] 580 00:43:49,993 --> 00:44:48,385 Goldhagen: IT WAS EASY TO MOBILIZE HUTU FOR THE KILLING. 581 00:44:48,385 --> 00:44:55,425 [MAN SHOUTS IN BOSNIAN] 582 00:44:55,425 --> 00:45:00,364 Silajdzic: IN BOSNIA, THERE WAS DELIBERATELY A PARANOID CULTURE 583 00:45:00,364 --> 00:45:03,867 CREATED PRIOR TO THE WAR, 584 00:45:03,867 --> 00:45:06,436 ABOUT 5 OR 6, 7 YEARS. 585 00:45:06,436 --> 00:45:12,442 THERE WAS A PROPAGANDA OF... 586 00:45:12,442 --> 00:45:15,846 THE SERBS BEING THREATENED BY EVERYBODY ELSE. 587 00:45:15,846 --> 00:45:19,182 AND I KNOW PEOPLE WHO, BECAUSE OF THIS PROPAGANDA, 588 00:45:19,182 --> 00:45:21,685 GOOD PEOPLE, WHO GENUINELY BELIEVED 589 00:45:21,685 --> 00:45:25,255 THAT THEY ARE SOMEHOW THREATENED, SO THEY HAVE TO ATTACK 590 00:45:25,255 --> 00:45:27,758 IN ORDER TO DEFEND THEMSELVES. 591 00:45:27,758 --> 00:45:30,260 [CROWD CHANTS] 592 00:45:30,260 --> 00:45:32,763 Goldhagen: AS HUTU LEADERS DID IN RWANDA, 593 00:45:32,763 --> 00:45:35,265 THE SERB LEADER, SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC, 594 00:45:35,265 --> 00:45:38,101 PLAYED ON BELIEFS HIS FOLLOWERS ALREADY HELD. 595 00:45:38,101 --> 00:45:42,606 HIS RALLYING CRY WAS ONE THAT MOST SERBS WOULD EASILY EMBRACE: 596 00:45:42,606 --> 00:45:45,609 UNDER HIS LEADERSHIP, SERBS WOULD RECLAIM THE LAND 597 00:45:45,609 --> 00:45:47,878 THAT THEY BELIEVED WERE HISTORICALLY THEIRS, 598 00:45:47,878 --> 00:45:52,382 INCLUDING THE PREDOMINANTLY MUSLIM COUNTRY OF BOSNIA HERZEGOVINA. 599 00:45:52,382 --> 00:45:56,386 HE EXPLOITED CENTURIES-OLD ANIMOSITIES TOWARD MUSLIMS, 600 00:45:56,386 --> 00:45:59,890 WHOM THE CHRISTIAN SERBS SAW AS THEIR ETERNAL ENEMIES. 601 00:45:59,890 --> 00:46:02,826 WHAT THEY'RE BEING TOLD ABOUT BOSNIA'S-- 602 00:46:02,826 --> 00:46:05,162 ABOUT MUSLIMS, THEY ARE A THREAT TO THEM. 603 00:46:05,162 --> 00:46:07,063 WHY DOES THIS MAKE SENSE TO THEM? 604 00:46:07,063 --> 00:46:10,567 BECAUSE IT'S IN HARMONY WITH THE NATIONALIST MYTH 605 00:46:10,567 --> 00:46:14,137 THAT MANY OF THEM HAVE BEEN FED FOR GENERATIONS, 606 00:46:14,137 --> 00:46:17,674 AND THE LABELINGS OF THE VICTIMS 607 00:46:17,674 --> 00:46:24,614 THAT THEY VIOLATED DURING THIS ACTIVITY FIT THAT MYTH. 608 00:46:24,614 --> 00:46:27,117 [CROWD CHANTING] 609 00:46:27,117 --> 00:46:32,122 Goldhagen: WHEN THOSE HARBORING POWERFUL HATREDS FINALLY ARE GIVEN THE CHANCE TO KILL, 610 00:46:32,122 --> 00:46:43,834 THEIR EUPHORIA IS UNMISTAKABLE. 611 00:46:43,834 --> 00:47:23,874 [WHISTLE BLOWING] 612 00:47:23,874 --> 00:47:27,377 Goldhagen: IN BOSNIA, THE SERBS' PLAN WAS COMPREHENSIVE. 613 00:47:27,377 --> 00:47:30,881 IT WAS DESCRIBED WIDELY AS ETHNIC CLEANSING, 614 00:47:30,881 --> 00:47:34,384 A EUPHEMISM THAT TRIVIALIZES THEIR BRUTAL ACTS. 615 00:47:34,384 --> 00:47:36,887 THEY ROUNDED UP MUSLIM MEN 616 00:47:36,887 --> 00:47:42,526 AND PUT THEM IN CONCENTRATION CAMPS OR MURDERED THEM OUTRIGHT. 617 00:47:42,526 --> 00:47:44,861 THEY EXPELLED FAMILIES FROM THEIR HOMES 618 00:47:44,861 --> 00:47:56,206 AND FROM REGIONS WHICH THEY WANTED EXCLUSIVELY FOR SERBS. 619 00:47:56,206 --> 00:47:59,209 AND IN THE CAPITAL CITY, SARAJEVO, 620 00:47:59,209 --> 00:48:07,017 THEY ATTACKED THE CIVILIAN POPULATION FROM THE SURROUNDING HILLS. 621 00:48:07,017 --> 00:48:08,518 [GUNFIRE] 622 00:48:08,518 --> 00:48:10,220 [EXPLOSION] 623 00:48:10,220 --> 00:48:12,222 [SIREN] 624 00:48:12,222 --> 00:48:16,860 Man: THE BOSNIAN SERBS FIRED 12 MORTAR AND ARTILLERY ROUNDS LAST NIGHT 625 00:48:16,860 --> 00:48:19,062 INTO A PART OF THE CITY CROWDED WITH YOUNG PEOPLE. 626 00:48:19,062 --> 00:48:20,564 [GUNFIRE] 627 00:48:20,564 --> 00:48:23,533 Sudetic: THE SNIPING ACTIVITY HERE WAS NOTORIOUS. 628 00:48:23,533 --> 00:48:26,536 PEOPLE WALKING DOWN THE STREET WERE HUNTED LIKE ANIMALS. 629 00:48:26,536 --> 00:48:28,538 SO WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED TO US IF WE HAD BEEN HERE? 630 00:48:28,538 --> 00:48:30,540 WE WOULD HAVE BEEN SHOT FROM THOSE BUILDINGS OVER THERE. 631 00:48:30,540 --> 00:48:30,540 THAT FAR AWAY? I MEAN, THE ROOF-- 632 00:48:30,540 --> 00:48:32,542 NO, THAT'S NOT FAR AT ALL. 633 00:48:32,542 --> 00:48:34,544 I MEAN, A SNIPER COULD HAVE HIT US RIGHT HERE? 634 00:48:34,544 --> 00:48:36,546 OH, YEAH, YEAH. DEFINITELY. 635 00:48:36,546 --> 00:48:39,049 IT'S NOT A HARD SHOT FROM-- 636 00:48:39,049 --> 00:48:41,051 FOR A TRAINED SNIPER. 637 00:48:41,051 --> 00:48:43,253 AND THESE WERE TRAINED PEOPLE. THEY WERE NOT, UH, 638 00:48:43,253 --> 00:48:45,789 THEY WERE NOT YAHOOS WITH 12-GAUGES. 639 00:48:45,789 --> 00:48:47,290 [GUNSHOT] 640 00:48:47,290 --> 00:48:49,292 THESE WERE HIGH-POWERED HUNTING RIFLES. 641 00:48:49,292 --> 00:48:51,428 THEY USED HIGH-POWERED SNIPER RIFLES 642 00:48:51,428 --> 00:48:55,932 WITH VERY SOPHISTICATED SIGHT EQUIPMENT ON THEM. 643 00:48:55,932 --> 00:48:55,932 AND IT'S-- 644 00:48:55,932 --> 00:48:58,468 YOU'D BE BANGED WITH A HEAD SHOT. 645 00:48:58,468 --> 00:48:59,936 [GUNSHOT] 646 00:48:59,936 --> 00:49:01,871 YOU COULD WALK ACROSS THIS STREET 647 00:49:01,871 --> 00:49:04,307 IN BROAD DAYLIGHT AND NOTHING WOULD HAPPEN, BUT THEN-- 648 00:49:04,307 --> 00:49:07,644 [MACHINE GUNFIRE] 649 00:49:07,644 --> 00:49:09,145 LIKE BAGGING PREY. 650 00:49:09,145 --> 00:49:10,647 WERE THEY JUST AS LIKELY TO SHOOT WOMEN? 651 00:49:10,647 --> 00:49:10,647 YES. 652 00:49:10,647 --> 00:49:10,647 AND CHILDREN? 653 00:49:10,647 --> 00:49:12,148 YEAH. 654 00:49:12,148 --> 00:49:12,148 SO IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU BEING A SOLDIER, PER SE. 655 00:49:12,148 --> 00:49:14,651 NO. 656 00:49:14,651 --> 00:49:16,653 SO WHAT WAS-- I MEAN, WHAT WAS THE FUNCTION? 657 00:49:16,653 --> 00:49:16,653 I MEAN, WHY WERE THEY 658 00:49:16,653 --> 00:49:18,588 DOING THIS? TERROR. 659 00:49:18,588 --> 00:49:21,124 [EXPLOSION, GUNFIRE] 660 00:49:21,124 --> 00:49:21,124 GET RID OF THE MUSLIMS. 661 00:49:21,124 --> 00:49:23,126 YEAH. 662 00:49:23,126 --> 00:49:25,128 AND SO TERRORIZE THEM, 663 00:49:25,128 --> 00:49:25,128 KILL AS MANY AS POSSIBLE-- 664 00:49:25,128 --> 00:49:27,130 YES. 665 00:49:27,130 --> 00:49:31,034 PUSH AS MANY OF THEM INTO AS SMALL AN AREA AS POSSIBLE SO THEY COULD TAKE THE REST. 666 00:49:31,034 --> 00:49:34,037 THEY KNEW EVERYTHING. THEY PREPARE EVERYTHING. 667 00:49:34,037 --> 00:49:37,540 IT WAS REALLY ACTUALLY PLANNED AND SYSTEMATIC. 668 00:49:37,540 --> 00:49:40,043 ACTUALLY SYSTEMATICALLY PLANNED, THE WAR, 669 00:49:40,043 --> 00:49:44,047 OF ACTUALLY ESTABLISHING CONCENTRATION CAMPS, 670 00:49:44,047 --> 00:49:48,551 KILLING, RAPING, EVERYTHING. 671 00:49:48,551 --> 00:49:51,054 RAPING'S ONE OF THE WORST CRIMES. 672 00:49:51,054 --> 00:49:55,058 IT NOT ONLY HUMILIATES THE PERSON, 673 00:49:55,058 --> 00:49:55,058 IT DESTROYS THE FAMILY. 674 00:49:55,058 --> 00:49:57,060 MM-HMM. 675 00:49:57,060 --> 00:50:01,564 THERE IS SO MANY CASES OF UNWANTED CHILDREN. 676 00:50:01,564 --> 00:50:05,368 THE MOTHER DOESN'T RECOGNIZE HER SON OR DAUGHTER 677 00:50:05,368 --> 00:50:08,872 THAT CAME FROM THESE RAPINGS. 678 00:50:08,872 --> 00:50:12,375 Goldhagen: THE SERBS' WIDESPREAD RAPING OF BOSNIAN WOMEN 679 00:50:12,375 --> 00:50:14,878 WAS NOT THE KIND OF THING, AS MANY THINK, 680 00:50:14,878 --> 00:50:16,880 THAT HAPPENS INEVITABLY IN WAR ZONES. 681 00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:20,383 Muratcaus: THEY DID NOTHING, ACTUALLY... 682 00:50:20,383 --> 00:50:22,385 Goldhagen, voice-over: LIKE KILLING, 683 00:50:22,385 --> 00:50:26,389 THE SERBS USE RAPE AND RAPE CAMPS AS AN INTEGRAL COMPONENT 684 00:50:26,389 --> 00:50:29,893 OF THEIR CAMPAIGN TO RID THE COUNTRY OF ITS MUSLIM POPULATION. 685 00:50:29,893 --> 00:50:34,864 Muratcaus: WE WILL NEVER FIND OUT HOW MANY WOMEN WERE RAPED 686 00:50:34,864 --> 00:50:37,000 ALL OVER BOSNIA. 687 00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:40,003 THEY ACTUALLY POSED US 688 00:50:40,003 --> 00:50:44,708 IN SOME BIG ROOMS WITH MAYBE 14 BEDS. 689 00:50:44,708 --> 00:50:50,213 THEY ARE YELLING AT US, "YOU WILL HAVE SERBIAN BABIES, SERBIAN CHILDREN." 690 00:50:50,213 --> 00:50:52,215 THEY WERE BEATEN, 691 00:50:52,215 --> 00:50:54,718 HORRIBLY BEATEN 692 00:50:54,718 --> 00:50:59,222 WITH FACE, WITH, ACTUALLY, THEIR LEGS AND... 693 00:50:59,222 --> 00:51:02,892 HORRIBLE. 694 00:51:02,892 --> 00:51:07,464 [COMPUTER KEYBOARD KEYS TAPPING] 695 00:51:07,464 --> 00:51:10,467 THERE'S A LOT TO MAKE SENSE OF HERE. 696 00:51:10,467 --> 00:51:13,470 IT SEEMS TO ME WE'VE BEEN MISSING A CRITICAL POINT 697 00:51:13,470 --> 00:51:15,972 IN UNDERSTANDING THESE HORRORS. 698 00:51:15,972 --> 00:51:19,476 THE MASTERMINDS OF GENOCIDE USE DIFFERENT MEANS 699 00:51:19,476 --> 00:51:24,414 IN VARYING COMBINATIONS TO GET RID OF UNWANTED PEOPLE. 700 00:51:24,414 --> 00:51:27,117 THEY EXPEL VICTIMS FROM THEIR COUNTRIES, 701 00:51:27,117 --> 00:51:28,885 THEY HERD THEM INTO CAMPS, 702 00:51:28,885 --> 00:51:31,621 THEY RAPE WOMEN IN AN ORGANIZED WAY, 703 00:51:31,621 --> 00:51:36,626 AND OF COURSE, THEY SYSTEMATICALLY SLAUGHTER. 704 00:51:36,626 --> 00:51:39,629 [COMPUTER KEYBOARD KEYS TAPPING] 705 00:51:39,629 --> 00:51:45,635 SO WHAT WE OFTEN THINK OF AS GENOCIDE IS NEVER JUST ABOUT KILLING. 706 00:51:45,635 --> 00:51:48,471 WHAT THE PERPETRATORS WANT MOST OF ALL 707 00:51:48,471 --> 00:51:59,983 IS TO ELIMINATE A SUBSTANTIAL PART OR ALL OF THE TARGETED GROUP. 708 00:51:59,983 --> 00:52:02,919 TERMS LIKE "GENOCIDE" OR EVEN "MASS MURDER" 709 00:52:02,919 --> 00:52:09,926 ARE INADEQUATE TO DESCRIBE THE PHENOMENON WE HAVE REPEATEDLY WITNESSED. 710 00:52:09,926 --> 00:52:14,998 AS A POLITICAL SCIENTIST, I LIVE AND WORK IN A WORLD OF ISMS. 711 00:52:14,998 --> 00:52:19,769 THIS ONE WE SHOULD CALL ELIMINATIONISM. 712 00:52:19,769 --> 00:52:26,276 REFRAMING THE WAY WE THINK ABOUT THESE DEEDS IS NOT JUST AN INTELLECTUAL EXERCISE. 713 00:52:26,276 --> 00:52:28,778 IT'S A CRITICAL COMPONENT OF UNDERSTANDING 714 00:52:28,778 --> 00:52:34,784 THAT GENOCIDE IS ONE PART OF A LARGER PHENOMENON THAT WE MUST COMBAT. 715 00:52:34,784 --> 00:52:39,689 WE NEED TO BE ON ALERT WHEN WE SEE ANY FORM OF ELIMINATIONIST POLITICS, 716 00:52:39,689 --> 00:52:45,695 WHETHER IT INITIALLY INCLUDES KILLING OR NOT. 717 00:52:45,695 --> 00:52:50,200 EVERYWHERE IT IS PRACTICED, ELIMINATIONISM TAKES DIFFERENT FORMS. 718 00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:52,702 RWANDA WAS DIFFERENT FROM BOSNIA, 719 00:52:52,702 --> 00:52:57,207 CAMBODIA WAS DIFFERENT FROM TURKEY. 720 00:52:57,207 --> 00:53:04,080 THE GERMANS' ASSAULT ON THE JEWS WAS ALSO DIFFERENT. 721 00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:09,152 IT WAS THE ONLY CASE WHEN PERPETRATORS TARGETED EVERY ADULT AND CHILD, 722 00:53:09,152 --> 00:53:12,655 WITHOUT EXCEPTION, FOR ANNIHILATION, 723 00:53:12,655 --> 00:53:17,594 AND WHERE THAT MURDEROUS POLICY EXTENDED TO COUNTRY AFTER COUNTRY, 724 00:53:17,594 --> 00:53:21,598 INCLUDING JEWS HALF A CONTINENT AWAY. 725 00:53:21,598 --> 00:53:24,601 Goldhagen: SO IT'S 64 YEARS SINCE YOU'VE BEEN BACK, RIGHT? 726 00:53:24,601 --> 00:53:24,601 YES, THAT'S RIGHT, YES. 727 00:53:24,601 --> 00:53:26,069 AND-- 728 00:53:26,069 --> 00:53:28,571 AND I FEEL THE SADNESS AS I COME BACK 729 00:53:28,571 --> 00:53:31,074 TO THIS PLACE WHERE I WAS ALMOST KILLED, 730 00:53:31,074 --> 00:53:34,577 WHERE A GREAT PART OF MY FAMILY LIES BURIED. 731 00:53:34,577 --> 00:53:38,581 HAD YOU--HAD YOU EVER-- 732 00:53:38,581 --> 00:53:40,583 HAD YOU PLANNED ONE DAY TO COME BACK ON YOUR OWN? 733 00:53:40,583 --> 00:53:43,086 NO, NEVER. REALLY NOT. 734 00:53:43,086 --> 00:53:45,588 UH, I PROBABLY WOULD HAVE NEVER COME BACK 735 00:53:45,588 --> 00:53:49,592 HAD IT NOT BEEN THAT YOU WERE MAKING THIS FILM. 736 00:53:49,592 --> 00:53:53,096 SO ARE YOU A RELUCTANT, IF WILLING, PARTICIPANT? 737 00:53:53,096 --> 00:54:03,706 AN AMBIVALENT PARTICIPANT, I WOULD SAY. 738 00:54:03,706 --> 00:54:06,776 Goldhagen: THE JEWS IN THE REGION WHERE MY FATHER LIVED 739 00:54:06,776 --> 00:54:09,979 WERE KILLED, IN MOST CASES, BY THE EINSATZGRUPPEN-- 740 00:54:09,979 --> 00:54:13,483 MOBILE KILLING SQUADS CHARGED WITH EXTERMINATING EVERY JEW 741 00:54:13,483 --> 00:54:16,986 IN THE SOVIET TERRITORY CONQUERED BY THE GERMANS. 742 00:54:16,986 --> 00:54:30,333 THEY KILLED WITH BRUTAL ABANDON. 743 00:54:30,333 --> 00:54:33,836 Goldhagen: IS THERE ANY-- IS THERE A POSITIVE SIDE FOR YOU TO GO BACK? 744 00:54:33,836 --> 00:54:36,105 SHOWING ME THE PLACES YOU WERE-- 745 00:54:36,105 --> 00:54:38,608 YES, SHOWING YOU THE PLACES 746 00:54:38,608 --> 00:54:42,111 BECAUSE YOU HAVE BEEN SORT OF AN ACADEMIC, 747 00:54:42,111 --> 00:54:45,615 VERY SECLUDED, 748 00:54:45,615 --> 00:54:48,117 NEVER... 749 00:54:48,117 --> 00:54:52,121 FOR THE FIRST TIME-- YOU HAVE STUDIED 750 00:54:52,121 --> 00:54:56,626 THIS PHENOMENON FROM A DISTANCE, THROUGH DOCUMENT. 751 00:54:56,626 --> 00:55:06,069 COME NOW, YOU HAVE SEEN THE MASS GRAVES IN GUATEMALA. 752 00:55:06,069 --> 00:55:09,072 AND YOU CERTAINLY SHOULD HAVE A LOOK AT THE MASS GRAVE 753 00:55:09,072 --> 00:55:17,580 OF SOME OF YOUR RELATIVES, GRAVE OF MY PARENTS. 754 00:55:17,580 --> 00:55:23,086 Goldhagen: THERE WERE 2,000 JEWS IN THIS TOWN WHEN MY FATHER USED TO VISIT HIS RELATIVES HERE. 755 00:55:23,086 --> 00:55:27,223 NOW THERE ARE 3. 756 00:55:27,223 --> 00:55:32,228 MOST LIE IN A MASS GRAVE NEAR WHAT IS NOW A POPULAR PICNIC SITE. 757 00:55:32,228 --> 00:55:39,168 [BOYS SHOUTING] 758 00:55:39,168 --> 00:55:41,671 [SPEAKING NATIVE LANGUAGE] 759 00:55:41,671 --> 00:55:45,842 Goldhagen: LIKE MY FATHER, I HAVE ALWAYS ENDEAVORED TO SEPARATE MY EMOTIONS 760 00:55:45,842 --> 00:55:48,344 FROM MY SCHOLARLY WORK ON GENOCIDE. 761 00:55:48,344 --> 00:55:52,849 BUT HERE WE ARE, AT A MOMENT THAT I NEVER IMAGINED. 762 00:55:52,849 --> 00:55:56,019 A LOCAL MAN HAS AGREED TO GUIDE US TO THE SITE 763 00:55:56,019 --> 00:56:00,456 WHERE GERMANS MURDERED MY FATHER'S RELATIVES AND 2,000 OTHERS. 764 00:56:00,456 --> 00:56:01,958 I SEE, I SEE. 765 00:56:01,958 --> 00:56:13,536 OH, HERE WE CAN GO CLOSE. 766 00:56:13,536 --> 00:56:17,040 Goldhagen: THE SCHOLAR'S JOB IS TO STAND BACK AND ANALYZE, 767 00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:21,110 BUT THE SURVIVOR AND THE SON HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO DRAW NEAR. 768 00:56:21,110 --> 00:56:23,613 "TO THE ETERNAL MEMORY 769 00:56:23,613 --> 00:56:27,884 OF THE JEWS OF KOSOV..." 770 00:56:27,884 --> 00:56:30,887 "WHO WERE MURDERED 771 00:56:30,887 --> 00:56:34,724 "BY THE NAZI MURDERERS 772 00:56:34,724 --> 00:56:38,261 AND THEIR HELPERS." 773 00:56:38,261 --> 00:56:39,796 SO... 774 00:56:39,796 --> 00:56:42,799 HOW MANY...PEOPLE FROM YOUR FAMILY 775 00:56:42,799 --> 00:56:45,802 ARE LYING IN THIS MASS GRAVE-- 776 00:56:45,802 --> 00:56:48,771 I WOULD ESTIMATE IT OVER A DOZEN PEOPLE. 777 00:56:48,771 --> 00:56:50,273 WERE YOU CLOSE TO THEM? 778 00:56:50,273 --> 00:56:52,041 I WAS VERY CLOSE TO THEM. I VISITED THEM HERE, 779 00:56:52,041 --> 00:56:55,044 AND IT EVOKES SOME CERTAIN EMOTIONS. 780 00:56:55,044 --> 00:56:59,048 THE IMAGES OF SOME, OF ELDERS APPEAR BEFORE ME. 781 00:56:59,048 --> 00:57:03,486 I SEE THEM NOW. AS I SPEAK TO YOU NOW, I SEE THEM. 782 00:57:03,486 --> 00:57:07,657 SOMETIMES--AS YOU MAY REMEMBER WHEN I GAVE THE COURSE 783 00:57:07,657 --> 00:57:10,793 ON THE HOLOCAUST AT HARVARD-- 784 00:57:10,793 --> 00:57:13,563 I EXPERIENCE SOMETIMES A SENSE OF GUILT 785 00:57:13,563 --> 00:57:16,165 AT THE FACT THAT I SPEAK SO COOLLY 786 00:57:16,165 --> 00:57:18,334 AND ANALYTICALLY OVER THEIR DEATH. 787 00:57:18,334 --> 00:57:21,204 I'M YOUR SON IN MANY WAYS, 788 00:57:21,204 --> 00:57:24,073 AND YOUR DISPASSION IS MY OWN. 789 00:57:24,073 --> 00:57:26,075 HOW--HOW DID THEY DIE? 790 00:57:26,075 --> 00:57:27,643 WHAT HAPPENED HERE? 791 00:57:27,643 --> 00:57:30,012 WELL, THEY BROUGHT THEM UP HERE 792 00:57:30,012 --> 00:57:31,614 AND KILLED THEM BY GUNFIRE. 793 00:57:31,614 --> 00:57:33,316 ONE GROUP FELL INTO THE GRAVE. 794 00:57:33,316 --> 00:57:34,951 THEN ANOTHER GROUP WAS LINED UP, 795 00:57:34,951 --> 00:57:36,185 THEY FELL INTO THE GRAVE. 796 00:57:36,185 --> 00:57:36,185 WHEN THEY WERE SHOT? 797 00:57:36,185 --> 00:57:37,920 WHEN THEY WERE SHOT 798 00:57:37,920 --> 00:57:40,289 UNTIL--AND MANY OF THEM WERE PROBABLY NOT KILLED, 799 00:57:40,289 --> 00:57:41,757 MANY OF THEM WERE PROBABLY NOT DEAD. 800 00:57:41,757 --> 00:57:44,961 THEY WERE ALIVE AS THEY FELL INTO THE GRAVE, 801 00:57:44,961 --> 00:57:50,066 AND UKRAINIAN GROUPS WERE MADE TO COVER THE GRAVES. 802 00:57:50,066 --> 00:57:51,801 YOU KNOW, AS WE'VE OFTEN SPOKEN BEFORE, 803 00:57:51,801 --> 00:57:55,738 IT'S SHOCKING TO ME TO REFLECT ON HOW DETACHED I AM, TOO, 804 00:57:55,738 --> 00:57:57,807 FROM THIS, THAT I DIDN'T EVEN MAKE 805 00:57:57,807 --> 00:58:00,276 THIS OBVIOUS CONNECTION THAT WE WERE GOING HERE 806 00:58:00,276 --> 00:58:02,545 WHEN I WAS IN A MASS GRAVE IN GUATEMALA, 807 00:58:02,545 --> 00:58:04,780 BUT NOW THAT WE'RE HERE, 808 00:58:04,780 --> 00:58:07,216 I REALIZE THAT SUDDENLY MY RELATIVES 809 00:58:07,216 --> 00:58:10,153 MURDERED SIT BELOW US, LIE BELOW US 810 00:58:10,153 --> 00:58:15,057 UNMARKED, UNKNOWN, 811 00:58:15,057 --> 00:58:16,792 BARELY REGISTERED IN ANY WAY, 812 00:58:16,792 --> 00:58:21,831 THEIR NAMES ABSENT, SOON TO BE FORGOTTEN COMPLETELY. 813 00:58:21,831 --> 00:58:34,343 SHOULD WE GET SOME STONES, TATI? 814 00:58:34,343 --> 00:59:10,446 PERHAPS WE BETTER PUT THEM ON EACH. 815 00:59:10,446 --> 00:59:19,388 [INDISTINCT CHATTER] 816 00:59:19,388 --> 00:59:21,357 [DRUMS BEATING] 817 00:59:21,357 --> 00:59:32,501 [SINGING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE] 818 00:59:32,501 --> 00:59:35,371 Woman: WELL, CERTAINLY, WE THOUGHT THAT WE WERE SAYING, 819 00:59:35,371 --> 00:59:38,608 "NEVER AGAIN," BUT WE KEEP SAYING, "NEVER AGAIN," 820 00:59:38,608 --> 00:59:40,142 OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN. 821 00:59:40,142 --> 00:59:41,377 WELL, THERE ARE TWO DIFFERENT ISSUES. 822 00:59:41,377 --> 00:59:43,279 WHY DOES THIS KEEP HAPPENING AGAIN, 823 00:59:43,279 --> 00:59:45,047 AND WHY DOESN'T ANYBODY DO ANYTHING 824 00:59:45,047 --> 00:59:46,782 TO STOP IT FROM HAPPENING AGAIN? 825 00:59:46,782 --> 00:59:48,951 AND IT KEEPS HAPPENING BECAUSE 826 00:59:48,951 --> 00:59:50,987 THERE ARE POLITICAL REGIMES THAT FIND IT USEFUL 827 00:59:50,987 --> 00:59:53,556 TO DEAL WITH THEIR SELF-DEFINED PROBLEMS, 828 00:59:53,556 --> 00:59:55,057 AND IT'S A VERY USEFUL TOOL. 829 00:59:55,057 --> 00:59:58,361 THEY DO IT BECAUSE THEY KNOW THEY HAVE BASICALLY IMPUNITY, 830 00:59:58,361 --> 01:00:01,230 AND THERE HAS BEEN VERY LITTLE CALLING TO ACCOUNT, 831 01:00:01,230 --> 01:00:03,733 AND THEY GET AWAY WITH IT TIME AND TIME AGAIN. 832 01:00:03,733 --> 01:00:06,569 SO QUITE CLEARLY, THE STATUS QUO IS CATASTROPHIC, 833 01:00:06,569 --> 01:00:07,670 AND WHEN I SAY CATASTROPHIC, 834 01:00:07,670 --> 01:00:09,705 I MEAN LITERALLY CATASTROPHIC 835 01:00:09,705 --> 01:00:11,707 BECAUSE IT TAKES THE LIVES OF TENS OF THOUSANDS, 836 01:00:11,707 --> 01:00:12,808 HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS, 837 01:00:12,808 --> 01:00:15,111 MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS OF PEOPLE, 838 01:00:15,111 --> 01:00:17,146 AND SO "NEVER AGAIN" IS A HOLLOW PHRASE. 839 01:00:17,146 --> 01:00:19,148 IT'S WELL-MEANT, BUT IN THE WORLD 840 01:00:19,148 --> 01:00:20,683 OF WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENS, 841 01:00:20,683 --> 01:00:26,756 IT'S BEEN A HOLLOW PHRASE, A MOCKERY OF ITSELF. 842 01:00:26,756 --> 01:00:30,059 THE INACTION OF WORLD LEADERS IN THE FACE OF MASS SLAUGHTER 843 01:00:30,059 --> 01:00:33,195 GOES BACK WELL BEFORE THE HOLOCAUST, 844 01:00:33,195 --> 01:00:37,600 AND GENOCIDAL LEADERS HAVE TAKEN NOTE. 845 01:00:37,600 --> 01:00:40,436 STARTING IN 1915, THE TURKISH GOVERNMENT KILLED 846 01:00:40,436 --> 01:00:42,805 AT LEAST A MILLION ARMENIANS 847 01:00:42,805 --> 01:00:46,609 AND EXPELLED HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS MORE. 848 01:00:46,609 --> 01:00:48,611 THE STORY OF THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE 849 01:00:48,611 --> 01:00:52,448 WAS COVERED ON THE FRONT PAGE OF THE "NEW YORK TIMES," 850 01:00:52,448 --> 01:00:54,750 AND TURKEY'S LEADERS WERE EXPLICITLY WARNED 851 01:00:54,750 --> 01:00:56,986 BY THE U.S. AND OTHERS THAT THEIR NATION 852 01:00:56,986 --> 01:01:00,723 WOULD BE CONDEMNED BY THE WORLD, 853 01:01:00,723 --> 01:01:05,761 BUT THE MASTERMINDS OF GENOCIDE WERE UNDETERRED. 854 01:01:05,761 --> 01:01:08,564 THE TURKS BRAZENLY DESTROYED COMMUNITIES, 855 01:01:08,564 --> 01:01:11,801 KILLED, RAPED, AND DROVE THE ARMENIAN PEOPLE 856 01:01:11,801 --> 01:01:17,840 INTO THE DESERT, WHERE THEY STARVED TO DEATH. 857 01:01:17,840 --> 01:01:19,542 FOR A CENTURY, TURKEY HAS REFUSED 858 01:01:19,542 --> 01:01:22,712 TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE GENOCIDE, 859 01:01:22,712 --> 01:01:24,780 AND REMARKABLY, MANY AROUND THE WORLD, 860 01:01:24,780 --> 01:01:29,418 INCLUDING THE U.S. GOVERNMENT, HAVE ALLOWED THEM TO DO SO. 861 01:01:29,418 --> 01:01:30,686 Man: THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE 862 01:01:30,686 --> 01:01:34,957 IS THE ONLY GENOCIDE THAT WE HAVE TROUBLE RECOGNIZING, 863 01:01:34,957 --> 01:01:37,293 AND IT'S BECAUSE THE CAMPAIGN OF DENIAL 864 01:01:37,293 --> 01:01:38,861 CONTINUES TO THIS DAY. 865 01:01:38,861 --> 01:01:41,197 Woman: OUR GOVERNMENT IS FLAT OUT WRONG 866 01:01:41,197 --> 01:01:44,633 IN THEIR REFUSAL TO RECOGNIZE THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE. 867 01:01:44,633 --> 01:01:49,305 WE MUST CALL GENOCIDE BY ITS NAME. 868 01:01:49,305 --> 01:01:51,340 Schiff: WE CAN'T HAVE THE KIND OF LEADERSHIP 869 01:01:51,340 --> 01:01:54,810 THAT WE NEED IN STOPPING GENOCIDE GOING ON TODAY 870 01:01:54,810 --> 01:01:58,314 IF WE'RE EQUIVOCAL ABOUT THE MURDER OF OTHER PEOPLE 871 01:01:58,314 --> 01:02:02,618 BECAUSE IT MIGHT OFFEND AN ALLY. 872 01:02:02,618 --> 01:02:04,086 I SHOULD THINK THAT IT WOULD BE A NO-BRAINER 873 01:02:04,086 --> 01:02:06,222 THAT A RESOLUTION BE PASSED TO ACKNOWLEDGE THIS. 874 01:02:06,222 --> 01:02:07,623 WHAT'S THE PROBLEM? 875 01:02:07,623 --> 01:02:09,458 WELL, IT SHOULD BE A NO-BRAINER. 876 01:02:09,458 --> 01:02:12,461 AS IT IS, IT'S AN ENORMOUSLY DIFFICULT CHALLENGE. 877 01:02:12,461 --> 01:02:16,732 WHEN THE GENOCIDE RESOLUTION WAS IN COMMITTEE LAST FALL, 878 01:02:16,732 --> 01:02:18,100 THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES 879 01:02:18,100 --> 01:02:21,237 WAS ON THE PHONE, CALLING COMMITTEE MEMBERS AT THEIR HOME 880 01:02:21,237 --> 01:02:22,772 TO URGE THEM TO VOTE AGAINST IT. 881 01:02:22,772 --> 01:02:22,772 FOR THIS RESOLUTION? 882 01:02:22,772 --> 01:02:24,573 FOR THIS RESOLUTION. 883 01:02:24,573 --> 01:02:27,676 WE ALL DEEPLY REGRET THE TRAGIC SUFFERING OF THE ARMENIAN PEOPLE 884 01:02:27,676 --> 01:02:31,514 THAT BEGAN IN 1915. 885 01:02:31,514 --> 01:02:33,482 THIS RESOLUTION IS NOT THE RIGHT RESPONSE 886 01:02:33,482 --> 01:02:35,618 TO THESE HISTORIC MASS KILLINGS. 887 01:02:35,618 --> 01:02:36,719 THE PROBLEM THAT WE HAVE 888 01:02:36,719 --> 01:02:37,887 IS THAT THIS IS CLEARLY 889 01:02:37,887 --> 01:02:39,221 A VERY SENSITIVE SUBJECT 890 01:02:39,221 --> 01:02:40,689 FOR ONE OF OUR CLOSEST ALLIES. 891 01:02:40,689 --> 01:02:43,492 YOU HAD MEMBERS OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF CALLING MEMBERS, 892 01:02:43,492 --> 01:02:46,228 YOU HAD THE SECRETARY OF STATE CALLING MEMBERS. 893 01:02:46,228 --> 01:02:50,299 I'VE NEVER SEEN A FULL-COURT PRESS LIKE THIS ON ANY RESOLUTION. 894 01:02:50,299 --> 01:02:52,501 I DON'T THINK WE STRENGTHEN OUR RELATIONSHIP 895 01:02:52,501 --> 01:02:54,970 EVEN WITH AN ALLY WHEN WE TURN A BLIND EYE 896 01:02:54,970 --> 01:02:58,774 TO SOME OF THE WORST CHAPTERS IN HUMAN HISTORY. 897 01:02:58,774 --> 01:03:02,111 Goldhagen: OUR POLITICIANS MAY FAIL TO LEARN FROM HISTORY, 898 01:03:02,111 --> 01:03:04,447 BUT THERE IS AMPLE EVIDENCE THAT MASS MURDERERS 899 01:03:04,447 --> 01:03:06,482 HAVE LEARNED QUITE WELL. 900 01:03:06,482 --> 01:03:08,250 Man: SUDANESE PRESIDENT OMAR AL-BASHIR 901 01:03:08,250 --> 01:03:09,685 HAS BEEN ACCUSED OF MASTERMINDING 902 01:03:09,685 --> 01:03:12,054 A CAMPAIGN OF GENOCIDE IN DARFUR. 903 01:03:12,054 --> 01:03:15,791 Goldhagen: 20 YEARS BEFORE THE RECENT CRISIS IN DARFUR, 904 01:03:15,791 --> 01:03:18,461 THE SAME SUDANESE GOVERNMENT KILLED AND EXPELLED 905 01:03:18,461 --> 01:03:25,668 EVEN MORE PEOPLE IN SOUTHERN SUDAN. 906 01:03:25,668 --> 01:03:27,703 AFTER KILLING TWO MILLION THEN, 907 01:03:27,703 --> 01:03:30,840 THE SUDANESE LEADER OMAR AL-BASHIR LEARNED 908 01:03:30,840 --> 01:03:36,745 THAT THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY WOULD LET HIM DO IT AGAIN. 909 01:03:36,745 --> 01:03:50,392 WHY DOES THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY FAIL TO INTERVENE TIME AND TIME AGAIN? 910 01:03:50,392 --> 01:03:54,296 JUST TELL ME. 911 01:03:54,296 --> 01:03:55,965 Madeleine Albright: AS OUR REPORT EMPHASIZES, 912 01:03:55,965 --> 01:03:58,767 THE CHOICE WE FACE IN TRYING TO PREVENT GENOCIDE 913 01:03:58,767 --> 01:04:02,638 IS RARELY A CASE OF ALL OR NOTHING. 914 01:04:02,638 --> 01:04:05,641 THERE IS A BROAD RANGE OF FOREIGN POLICY OPTIONS 915 01:04:05,641 --> 01:04:09,411 BETWEEN STANDING ASIDE AND ORDERING IN THE MARINES. 916 01:04:09,411 --> 01:04:12,648 Goldhagen: THE CO-CHAIR OF A RECENT TASK FORCE ON THE SUBJECT, 917 01:04:12,648 --> 01:04:15,384 FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE MADELEINE ALBRIGHT 918 01:04:15,384 --> 01:04:18,254 SERVED AS U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS 919 01:04:18,254 --> 01:04:20,823 DURING THE BOSNIAN AND RWANDAN GENOCIDES. 920 01:04:20,823 --> 01:04:32,134 [ELEVATOR PINGING] 921 01:04:32,134 --> 01:04:34,503 Goldhagen: YOU KNOW, IF ONE IS SIMPLY NAIVE, 922 01:04:34,503 --> 01:04:39,642 ONE SEES A WORLD OF POWERFUL COUNTRIES USUALLY LOOKING ON 923 01:04:39,642 --> 01:04:42,978 WITH SOME INEPTITUDE AT BEST AT COUNTRIES 924 01:04:42,978 --> 01:04:44,713 THAT ARE POOR AND NOT VERY POWERFUL 925 01:04:44,713 --> 01:04:47,116 IN WHICH THEIR LEADERSHIP IS SLAUGHTERING PEOPLE, 926 01:04:47,116 --> 01:04:49,585 AND YOU WONDER HOW CAN THIS BE? 927 01:04:49,585 --> 01:04:51,287 IF YOU GO TO PEOPLE AND YOU SAY, 928 01:04:51,287 --> 01:04:53,155 "YOU CAN PREVENT MASS MURDER," 929 01:04:53,155 --> 01:04:55,124 THEN MOST PEOPLE WILL THINK, 930 01:04:55,124 --> 01:04:57,059 "OK. I'LL DO THE BEST I CAN." 931 01:04:57,059 --> 01:05:00,229 THE PROBLEM IS THAT WORLD LEADERS 932 01:05:00,229 --> 01:05:02,431 OR LEADERS GENERALLY ARE DISTRACTED. 933 01:05:02,431 --> 01:05:03,799 THERE'S SO MUCH TO DO. 934 01:05:03,799 --> 01:05:05,434 IT ISN'T AS IF THEY'RE NOT DOING ANYTHING. 935 01:05:05,434 --> 01:05:07,636 THERE'S NO WAY TO DESCRIBE TO SOMEONE 936 01:05:07,636 --> 01:05:10,172 THAT HAS NEVER BEEN IN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT 937 01:05:10,172 --> 01:05:14,243 OR ANY GOVERNMENT HOW MANY THINGS ARE HAPPENING EVERY HOUR 938 01:05:14,243 --> 01:05:18,914 AND REQUIRE ATTENTION AND REQUIRE WILL AND REQUIRE RESOURCES. 939 01:05:18,914 --> 01:05:22,084 THE QUESTION IS WHETHER YOUR GOVERNMENTAL SYSTEM 940 01:05:22,084 --> 01:05:27,022 IS SET UP IN A WAY THAT YOU DON'T HAVE TO START FROM SCRATCH. 941 01:05:27,022 --> 01:05:28,824 WE CAN TALK ABOUT RWANDA, 942 01:05:28,824 --> 01:05:31,193 WHERE THERE WERE MANY DIFFERENT PLAYERS INVOLVED 943 01:05:31,193 --> 01:05:33,295 AND PEOPLE HAD DIFFERENT DEGREES OF KNOWLEDGE 944 01:05:33,295 --> 01:05:35,497 AT DIFFERENT TIMES ABOUT WHAT WAS GOING ON. 945 01:05:35,497 --> 01:05:37,566 IT SEEMS THAT THERE WAS A CLEAR LACK OF WILL-- 946 01:05:37,566 --> 01:05:39,535 NOT GOODWILL IN THE SENSE OF COURSE PEOPLE DIDN'T WANT 947 01:05:39,535 --> 01:05:41,036 THE PEOPLE THERE TO BE SLAUGHTERED, 948 01:05:41,036 --> 01:05:44,173 BUT WILL ACTUALLY TO TAKE THE SACRIFICE 949 01:05:44,173 --> 01:05:45,374 OR MAKE THE SACRIFICE THAT WAS NECESSARY 950 01:05:45,374 --> 01:05:46,775 SEE, I DISAGREE WITH YOU. 951 01:05:46,775 --> 01:05:50,479 THE BELGIANS PULLED OUT, DALLAIRE WAS-- YOU KNOW THE STORY. 952 01:05:50,479 --> 01:05:54,917 DALLAIRE WAS CRYING OUT FOR MORE SUPPORT. 953 01:05:54,917 --> 01:05:57,286 MAYBE NOT EVERYONE COULD HAVE BEEN SAVED, 954 01:05:57,286 --> 01:05:58,621 BUT A LOT OF PEOPLE COULD HAVE BEEN SAVED. 955 01:05:58,621 --> 01:06:00,789 I MEAN, THIS IS AN ISSUE THAT WEIGHS VERY HEAVY 956 01:06:00,789 --> 01:06:02,191 ON ALL OUR HEARTS. 957 01:06:02,191 --> 01:06:03,692 WE WERE AT THE SAME TIME DEALING 958 01:06:03,692 --> 01:06:06,729 WITH SOMALIA, BOSNIA, HAITI, 959 01:06:06,729 --> 01:06:08,864 A FEW OTHER THINGS THAT WERE GOING ON, 960 01:06:08,864 --> 01:06:12,568 AND I THINK THAT PEOPLE DID NOT FULLY UNDERSTAND 961 01:06:12,568 --> 01:06:15,004 ALL THE HUTU-TUTSI RIVALRY 962 01:06:15,004 --> 01:06:17,106 AND THE INTERNAL THINGS THAT WERE BUILDING UP. 963 01:06:17,106 --> 01:06:20,242 THAT, I THINK, WAS SOMETHING THAT HAD NOT BEEN PAID 964 01:06:20,242 --> 01:06:21,810 ENOUGH ATTENTION TO. 965 01:06:21,810 --> 01:06:24,146 IT IS MUCH EASIER EX POST FACTO 966 01:06:24,146 --> 01:06:27,383 TO SAY WE KNEW THESE KINDS OF THINGS WERE GOING ON, 967 01:06:27,383 --> 01:06:30,519 BUT AT THE TIME I WAS AMBASSADOR AT THE UNITED NATIONS, 968 01:06:30,519 --> 01:06:36,725 AND I CAN TELL YOU THAT THE INFORMATION WAS NOT THERE. 969 01:06:36,725 --> 01:06:39,528 Goldhagen: I DON'T KNOW WHAT KIND OF INFORMATION ALBRIGHT NEEDED, 970 01:06:39,528 --> 01:06:42,064 BUT EVEN MORE THAN DURING THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE, 971 01:06:42,064 --> 01:06:44,266 INFORMATION ABOUT THE RWANDAN GENOCIDE 972 01:06:44,266 --> 01:06:48,671 WAS AVAILABLE TO ANYONE WITH ACCESS TO TV OR NEWSPAPER, 973 01:06:48,671 --> 01:06:50,739 AS THERE WERE MULTIPLE SOURCES OF INFORMATION 974 01:06:50,739 --> 01:06:52,474 COMING STRAIGHT FROM RWANDA, 975 01:06:52,474 --> 01:06:56,879 WHERE EVERYONE KNEW. 976 01:06:56,879 --> 01:06:59,815 AS SOON AS THE KILLING BEGAN, MANY TUTSI, 977 01:06:59,815 --> 01:07:01,550 INCLUDING EMMANUEL GATARI, 978 01:07:01,550 --> 01:07:03,686 MADE THEIR WAY TO A TECHNICAL SCHOOL, 979 01:07:03,686 --> 01:07:54,470 WHICH WAS BEING PROTECTED BY U.N. PEACEKEEPERS. 980 01:07:54,470 --> 01:07:58,440 AS THE LIVES OF EMMANUEL AND THE OTHERS WITH HIM HUNG IN THE BALANCE, 981 01:07:58,440 --> 01:08:00,042 THE U.S. AND OTHER FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS 982 01:08:00,042 --> 01:08:25,033 BEGAN TO EVACUATE THEIR CITIZENS FROM RWANDA. 983 01:08:25,033 --> 01:08:48,657 [EMMANUEL SPEAKING NATIVE LANGUAGE] 984 01:08:48,657 --> 01:08:52,795 [MACHINEGUNS FIRING] 985 01:08:52,795 --> 01:08:56,865 Karugarama: AND THERE WERE SO MANY PEOPLE HAD RUN TO THE U.N. 986 01:08:56,865 --> 01:09:00,169 FOR SECURITY, FOR PROTECTION, 987 01:09:00,169 --> 01:09:02,838 AND THEY WITHDREW AND LEFT THEM THERE 988 01:09:02,838 --> 01:09:13,382 TO BE MASSACRED IN COLD BLOOD. 989 01:09:13,382 --> 01:09:18,020 THIS IS REALLY SOMETHING THAT THE U.N. 990 01:09:18,020 --> 01:09:20,055 SHOULD BE ABLE TO EXPLAIN. 991 01:09:20,055 --> 01:09:24,159 HOW DO YOU WITHDRAW PEOPLE WHO ARE SUPPOSED TO PROTECT PEOPLE 992 01:09:24,159 --> 01:09:27,029 AT A TIME THAT IS SO CRITICAL, 993 01:09:27,029 --> 01:10:53,782 AT A TIME WHEN YOU SEE THE KILLINGS HAD ALREADY STARTED? 994 01:10:53,782 --> 01:10:56,151 Goldhagen: A LACK OF INFORMATION IS NOT THE REASON 995 01:10:56,151 --> 01:10:59,621 WORLD LEADERS FAIL TO INTERVENE TO STOP GENOCIDES. 996 01:10:59,621 --> 01:11:05,761 THE PROBLEM IS A LACK OF WILL. 997 01:11:05,761 --> 01:11:09,097 FOR MORE THAN HALF A CENTURY, PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD 998 01:11:09,097 --> 01:11:12,167 HAVE EXPECTED THE MEN AND WOMEN HERE AT THE UNITED NATIONS 999 01:11:12,167 --> 01:11:15,170 TO PROTECT THEM, 1000 01:11:15,170 --> 01:11:20,275 AND TIME AND AGAIN, THE U.N. HAS LET THOSE PEOPLE DOWN. 1001 01:11:20,275 --> 01:11:23,545 I LOOK AROUND AT THE MANY STATES HERE THAT HAVE TERRORIZED, 1002 01:11:23,545 --> 01:11:26,782 OPPRESSED, AND ELIMINATED THEIR OWN PEOPLE, 1003 01:11:26,782 --> 01:11:30,352 AND I THINK, "WHY WOULD ANYONE LOOK TO THIS BODY 1004 01:11:30,352 --> 01:11:36,358 TO COMBAT THESE EVILS AROUND THE WORLD?" 1005 01:11:36,358 --> 01:11:39,094 IN 1948, THE UNITED NATIONS ADOPTED 1006 01:11:39,094 --> 01:11:42,931 AN ANTIGENOCIDE CONVENTION THAT LEGALLY DEFINED GENOCIDE 1007 01:11:42,931 --> 01:11:45,100 AND AUTHORIZED ITS MEMBER STATES 1008 01:11:45,100 --> 01:11:49,104 TO STOP AND PUNISH ACTS OF MASS MURDER. 1009 01:11:49,104 --> 01:11:53,141 THE DOCUMENT IS NOBLE-SOUNDING BUT TOTALLY INEFFECTIVE. 1010 01:11:53,141 --> 01:11:55,310 IT HAS NEVER ONCE BEEN INVOKED TO PREVENT THE DEATH 1011 01:11:55,310 --> 01:12:00,048 OF A SINGLE PERSON. 1012 01:12:00,048 --> 01:12:02,584 THERE'S A FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM HERE. 1013 01:12:02,584 --> 01:12:06,088 THE U.N. EXISTS LARGELY TO PROTECT STATE SOVEREIGNTY, 1014 01:12:06,088 --> 01:12:08,523 A STATE'S RIGHT TO BE IMMUNE FROM OTHER COUNTRIES 1015 01:12:08,523 --> 01:12:11,927 INTERVENING IN ITS INTERNAL AFFAIRS. 1016 01:12:11,927 --> 01:12:15,163 SO HOW CAN WE EXPECT TO ALSO PROMOTE INTERVENTION 1017 01:12:15,163 --> 01:12:16,832 WHEN A SOVEREIGN STATE AND ITS PEOPLE 1018 01:12:16,832 --> 01:12:22,004 ARE ELIMINATING, KILLING, RAPING, AND EXPELLING GROUPS OF ITS OWN CITIZENS? 1019 01:12:22,004 --> 01:12:24,539 Man: I DON'T SEE SOVEREIGNTY NEGATIVELY 1020 01:12:24,539 --> 01:12:27,175 AS A CONCEPT OF BARRICADING YOURSELF AGAINST THE WORLD 1021 01:12:27,175 --> 01:12:28,810 WHILE YOUR PEOPLE ARE SUFFERING. 1022 01:12:28,810 --> 01:12:31,913 I SEE IT AS A POSITIVE CONCEPT 1023 01:12:31,913 --> 01:12:34,616 OF THE STATE DISCHARGING ITS RESPONSIBILITIES 1024 01:12:34,616 --> 01:12:36,318 TOWARDS ITS OWN CITIZENS, 1025 01:12:36,318 --> 01:12:39,021 PROVIDING THEM WITH PROTECTION AND ASSISTANCE, 1026 01:12:39,021 --> 01:12:42,624 AND IF FOR LACK OF CAPACITY, YOU CANNOT DO IT, 1027 01:12:42,624 --> 01:12:45,494 CALL ON THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY TO COME AND HELP YOU 1028 01:12:45,494 --> 01:12:47,963 DO WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY IN THE FIRST PLACE. 1029 01:12:47,963 --> 01:12:51,266 YOU KNOW, I APPLAUD WHAT YOU DO, AND I AGREE, 1030 01:12:51,266 --> 01:12:53,368 AND I ALSO VERY MUCH LIKE 1031 01:12:53,368 --> 01:12:55,670 RECONCEPTUALIZING CONCEPTS THE WAY YOU HAVE 1032 01:12:55,670 --> 01:12:57,939 WITH SOVEREIGNTY, BUT YOU'RE 1033 01:12:57,939 --> 01:12:59,307 IN A MINORITY THERE, AS YOU WELL KNOW... 1034 01:12:59,307 --> 01:13:00,342 ABSOLUTELY. 1035 01:13:00,342 --> 01:13:02,544 AND EVEN IN THIS HALL IN PARTICULAR, 1036 01:13:02,544 --> 01:13:03,812 YOU WOULD BE IN A MINORITY 1037 01:13:03,812 --> 01:13:06,448 IF YOU WERE TO STAND UP AND TO GIVE AND SPEECH HERE, 1038 01:13:06,448 --> 01:13:09,818 AND IT SEEMS TO ME THAT SOVEREIGNTY 1039 01:13:09,818 --> 01:13:11,553 IS AN IMPORTANT PRINCIPLE, 1040 01:13:11,553 --> 01:13:15,157 BUT WE SHOULD MAKE CLEAR THAT IT DOES NOT GO SO FAR 1041 01:13:15,157 --> 01:13:18,860 AS TO ALLOW GOVERNMENTS TO SLAUGHTER THEIR PEOPLE 1042 01:13:18,860 --> 01:13:22,798 AND THAT THAT IN ITSELF, THOSE ACTS IN ITSELF ABRIDGE SOVEREIGNTY. 1043 01:13:22,798 --> 01:13:25,100 AND IF YOU DO NOT DISCHARGE YOUR RESPONSIBILITY 1044 01:13:25,100 --> 01:13:28,370 AND YOU DON'T WELCOME HELP, YOU HAVE NO WILL, 1045 01:13:28,370 --> 01:13:30,405 WE WILL TAKE OTHER MEASURES. 1046 01:13:30,405 --> 01:13:35,077 AND THESE OTHER MEASURES WE NEED TO DEVELOP TO BE A CREDIBLE THREAT, 1047 01:13:35,077 --> 01:13:39,614 BUT MEANWHILE, I'M JUST DOING WHAT IS IN MY CAPACITY TO DO. 1048 01:13:39,614 --> 01:13:41,450 AND YOU'RE DOING IT WELL. 1049 01:13:41,450 --> 01:13:44,252 Goldhagen, voice-over: THERE ARE WELL-MEANING PEOPLE HERE TO BE SURE, 1050 01:13:44,252 --> 01:13:46,254 BUT I'M AFRAID THEY'RE PART OF AN INSTITUTION 1051 01:13:46,254 --> 01:13:49,458 THAT IS SET UP TO FAIL. 1052 01:13:49,458 --> 01:13:51,059 THE U.N. IS NOT THE SOLUTION, 1053 01:13:51,059 --> 01:13:53,228 AS ITS APPALLING RECORD SHOWS, 1054 01:13:53,228 --> 01:13:55,130 BUT I DO THINK WE CAN DESIGN A SYSTEM 1055 01:13:55,130 --> 01:14:00,068 THAT WILL EFFECTIVELY STOP OR PREVENT FUTURE GENOCIDES. 1056 01:14:00,068 --> 01:14:05,407 THE FIRST COMPONENT MUST BE SWIFT DIPLOMATIC INTERVENTION. 1057 01:14:05,407 --> 01:14:09,878 A RECENT EPISODE HERE IN KENYA MAY OFFER A PROMISING MODEL FOR THE FUTURE. 1058 01:14:09,878 --> 01:14:12,681 Man: WHAT WAS ONCE ONE OF AFRICA'S MOST STABLE DEMOCRACIES 1059 01:14:12,681 --> 01:14:15,917 IS RIGHT NOW ONE OF THE MOST VIOLENT PLACES IN THE WORLD. 1060 01:14:15,917 --> 01:14:19,321 EXTREME CHAOS FOLLOWING A DISPUTED ELECTION IN KENYA, 1061 01:14:19,321 --> 01:14:21,256 MOBS TORCHING A CHURCH WITH HUNDREDS 1062 01:14:21,256 --> 01:14:22,958 OF REFUGEES INSIDE. 1063 01:14:22,958 --> 01:14:25,527 WITNESSES SAY DOZENS OF PEOPLE, INCLUDING CHILDREN, 1064 01:14:25,527 --> 01:14:28,597 WERE BURNED ALIVE OR HACKED TO DEATH WITH MACHETES, 1065 01:14:28,597 --> 01:14:31,099 AND THERE ARE NEW FEARS TODAY THAT KENYA IS IN DANGER 1066 01:14:31,099 --> 01:14:37,005 OF BECOMING THE NEXT RWANDA. 1067 01:14:37,005 --> 01:14:40,142 Goldhagen: IN JANUARY 2008, A SPATE OF KILLINGS 1068 01:14:40,142 --> 01:14:44,646 FOLLOWED THE REELECTION OF KENYAN PRESIDENT MWAI KIBAKI. 1069 01:14:44,646 --> 01:14:46,648 Man: CLEARLY, I THINK, THE IMMEDIATE TRIGGER 1070 01:14:46,648 --> 01:14:50,252 FOR THAT VIOLENCE WAS THE DISPUTED ELECTION RESULTS THAT HAPPENED, 1071 01:14:50,252 --> 01:14:52,154 BUT BEYOND THAT, I THINK THERE WERE ALSO 1072 01:14:52,154 --> 01:14:54,656 OTHER UNDERLYING ISSUES THAT CAME TO THE FORE, 1073 01:14:54,656 --> 01:14:57,626 ISSUES OF DISCONTENTMENT, ISSUES OF MARGINALIZATION, 1074 01:14:57,626 --> 01:15:00,061 RIFTS BETWEEN ETHNIC GROUPS IN THE COUNTRY, 1075 01:15:00,061 --> 01:15:02,564 ISSUES OF LAND, ISSUES OF HISTORICAL INJUSTICES. 1076 01:15:02,564 --> 01:15:04,900 SO ALL THESE THINGS CAME UP TOGETHER, 1077 01:15:04,900 --> 01:15:06,801 AND I THINK THAT THE ELECTION RESULTS, 1078 01:15:06,801 --> 01:15:08,403 THE WAY IT WAS HANDLED, THE PROCESS, 1079 01:15:08,403 --> 01:15:10,038 WAS REALLY LIKE THE MATCH THAT WAS THROWN 1080 01:15:10,038 --> 01:15:11,072 INTO A BARREL OF OIL. 1081 01:15:11,072 --> 01:15:14,376 [SINGING IN NATIVE LANGUAGE] 1082 01:15:14,376 --> 01:15:17,879 Goldhagen: IN THE RIFT VALLEY, MEMBERS OF THE PRESIDENT'S TRIBE, THE KIKUYU, 1083 01:15:17,879 --> 01:15:19,414 WERE TARGETED. 1084 01:15:19,414 --> 01:15:21,616 1,500 OR MORE WERE KILLED, 1085 01:15:21,616 --> 01:15:31,960 HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS WERE EXPELLED FROM THEIR HOMES. 1086 01:15:31,960 --> 01:15:34,496 IF THE KIKUYU HAD TRIED TO HOLD THEIR GROUND, 1087 01:15:34,496 --> 01:15:36,498 WOULD THE VIOLENCE HAVE ESCALATED 1088 01:15:36,498 --> 01:15:38,433 TO PRODUCE DEATHS ON A MASSIVE SCALE? 1089 01:15:38,433 --> 01:15:40,635 ABSOLUTELY. I THINK THE KILLINGS 1090 01:15:40,635 --> 01:15:42,103 WOULD HAVE DEFINITELY INCREASED. 1091 01:15:42,103 --> 01:15:46,241 I THINK IT WOULD HAVE DRAWN IN, ALSO, MORE COMMUNITIES. 1092 01:15:46,241 --> 01:15:51,680 Goldhagen: WITHIN DAYS, FORMER U.N. SECRETARY GENERAL KOFI ANNAN HAD FLOWN TO NAIROBI 1093 01:15:51,680 --> 01:15:55,150 ALONG WITH REPRESENTATIVES OF OTHER AFRICAN COUNTRIES. 1094 01:15:55,150 --> 01:16:00,722 I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT THAT ALL KENYANS 1095 01:16:00,722 --> 01:16:05,393 RESPOND WITH SYMPATHY AND UNDERSTANDING 1096 01:16:05,393 --> 01:16:07,495 AND NOT TRY TO REVENGE. 1097 01:16:07,495 --> 01:16:10,665 Goldhagen: THE U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE CONDOLEEZZA RICE ARRIVED 1098 01:16:10,665 --> 01:16:12,067 SOON AFTER. 1099 01:16:12,067 --> 01:16:14,135 THEY CAME TO MEDIATE, TO PRESSURE, 1100 01:16:14,135 --> 01:16:15,737 AND WITH THREATS OF SANCTIONS. 1101 01:16:15,737 --> 01:16:17,505 Kiai: I DON'T THINK I'VE EVER SEEN IN AFRICA 1102 01:16:17,505 --> 01:16:20,609 SUCH INTENSE INTERNATIONAL ENGAGEMENT ON AN ISSUE, 1103 01:16:20,609 --> 01:16:23,245 AND THAT REALLY HELPED. 1104 01:16:23,245 --> 01:16:25,814 Goldhagen: THE LONG-TERM EFFECTS OF THE DIPLOMATIC INTERVENTION 1105 01:16:25,814 --> 01:16:28,116 IN KENYA REMAIN TO BE SEEN. 1106 01:16:28,116 --> 01:16:29,651 THE VIOLENCE STOPPED, 1107 01:16:29,651 --> 01:16:31,386 BUT THE RACISTS AND POLITICAL ROOTS 1108 01:16:31,386 --> 01:16:33,121 OF THE CONFLICT RUN DEEP, 1109 01:16:33,121 --> 01:16:35,190 AND KENYAN POLITICAL LEADERS COULD START UP 1110 01:16:35,190 --> 01:16:37,192 THE VIOLENCE AGAIN, 1111 01:16:37,192 --> 01:16:39,461 BUT THE IMMEDIATE RESPONSE OF WORLD LEADERS 1112 01:16:39,461 --> 01:16:43,031 WAS A POWERFUL STATEMENT AND THE KIND OF RAPID REACTION 1113 01:16:43,031 --> 01:16:49,004 THAT COULD SAVE MANY LIVES IN THE FUTURE. 1114 01:16:49,004 --> 01:16:52,274 DIPLOMACY OF COURSE DOES NOT ALWAYS WORK. 1115 01:16:52,274 --> 01:16:54,576 Christiane Amanpour: THE U.N. IS ACCUSING THE SUDANESE GOVERNMENT 1116 01:16:54,576 --> 01:16:58,980 OF RESUMING BOMBING RAIDS AGAINST REBELS IN SOUTH DARFUR, 1117 01:16:58,980 --> 01:17:02,250 AND IT ALSO SAYS THAT DISPLACED VILLAGERS LIKE THESE 1118 01:17:02,250 --> 01:17:07,022 ARE STILL BEING ATTACKED BY JANJAWEED MILITIA. 1119 01:17:07,022 --> 01:17:08,723 Goldhagen: WHEN THE SUDANESE GOVERNMENT WAS MURDERING 1120 01:17:08,723 --> 01:17:11,526 ITS OWN PEOPLE IN THE WESTERN REGION OF DARFUR, 1121 01:17:11,526 --> 01:17:16,831 WORLD LEADERS SENT ENVOYS TO KHARTOUM. 1122 01:17:16,831 --> 01:17:33,481 BUT THE OIL-RICH REGIME CARES LITTLE ABOUT WORLD OPINION. 1123 01:17:33,481 --> 01:17:34,849 THEY CONTINUE TO KILL, 1124 01:17:34,849 --> 01:17:41,589 AND THE WORLD HAS DONE NOTHING MEANINGFUL TO STOP THEM. 1125 01:17:41,589 --> 01:17:44,025 WE NEED TO STOP PROVING TO POLITICAL LEADERS 1126 01:17:44,025 --> 01:17:48,096 THAT WE WILL STAND BY AS THEY SLAUGHTER THEIR OWN PEOPLE. 1127 01:17:48,096 --> 01:17:51,333 IF DIPLOMACY FAILS, COUNTRIES COMMITTING MASS ELIMINATIONS 1128 01:17:51,333 --> 01:17:54,569 SUCH AS SUDAN HAVE TO BE KICKED OUT OF THE U.N. 1129 01:17:54,569 --> 01:17:57,439 AND ALL INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS, 1130 01:17:57,439 --> 01:18:00,675 AND ALL TRADE MUST BE CUT OFF. 1131 01:18:00,675 --> 01:18:03,411 LEADERS THAT CONTINUE TO KILL MUST KNOW THAT WE WILL 1132 01:18:03,411 --> 01:18:10,485 SWIFTLY AND FORCEFULLY DESTROY THEIR MILITARY CAPABILITY. 1133 01:18:10,485 --> 01:18:13,421 Felde: SOME PEOPLE HAVE TALKED ABOUT SOME KIND OF RAPID RESPONSE FORCE. 1134 01:18:13,421 --> 01:18:16,157 I WOULD OF COURSE BE FOR INTERVENTION, 1135 01:18:16,157 --> 01:18:19,027 MILITARY INTERVENTION WHEN PEOPLE ARE BEING SLAUGHTERED. 1136 01:18:19,027 --> 01:18:21,529 IT SEEMS QUITE OBVIOUS THAT HAVING SOME KIND OF FORCE 1137 01:18:21,529 --> 01:18:24,232 THAT COULD INTERVENE RAPIDLY AND EFFECTIVELY 1138 01:18:24,232 --> 01:18:26,067 IN MANY OF THE COUNTRIES WHERE IT DOESN'T TAKE 1139 01:18:26,067 --> 01:18:28,036 A GREAT DEAL OF FORCE TO STOP THESE THINGS 1140 01:18:28,036 --> 01:18:31,039 IS AN ABSOLUTE MORAL AND POLITICAL NECESSITY. 1141 01:18:31,039 --> 01:18:36,177 SOME WOULD SAY THAT IF WE'RE GOING TO INTERVENE MILITARILY IN DARFUR 1142 01:18:36,177 --> 01:18:37,345 WHAT ABOUT CONGO? 1143 01:18:37,345 --> 01:18:38,513 CERTAINLY, MORE PEOPLE HAVE DIED THERE 1144 01:18:38,513 --> 01:18:39,714 IN THE PAST 10 YEARS. 1145 01:18:39,714 --> 01:18:41,483 SO PERHAPS THEN YOU'RE SUGGESTING 1146 01:18:41,483 --> 01:18:43,351 WE SHOULD INTERVENE THERE, AS WELL. 1147 01:18:43,351 --> 01:18:47,055 THESE KINDS OF ARGUMENTS I ALSO FIND UNPERSUASIVE. 1148 01:18:47,055 --> 01:18:49,357 IT IS QUITE TRUE THAT THE UNITED STATES IS NOT 1149 01:18:49,357 --> 01:18:50,492 THE POLICEMAN OF THE WORLD, 1150 01:18:50,492 --> 01:18:51,893 EVEN THOUGH IT IS THE GUARANTOR 1151 01:18:51,893 --> 01:18:53,661 OF MUCH OF ORDER IN THE WORLD. 1152 01:18:53,661 --> 01:18:55,864 IT REMAINS THAT, BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN 1153 01:18:55,864 --> 01:18:57,599 THAT IF INTERVENING IN DARFUR IS 1154 01:18:57,599 --> 01:18:59,768 THE RIGHT THING TO DO TO SAVE LIVES 1155 01:18:59,768 --> 01:19:02,570 THAT WE SHOULD NOT DO IT BECAUSE WE CAN'T INTERVENE EVERYWHERE. 1156 01:19:02,570 --> 01:19:06,174 I DON'T FIND THE ARGUMENTS AGAIN PERSUASIVE THAT, 1157 01:19:06,174 --> 01:19:09,310 WELL, YOU SHOULDN'T DO SOMETHING BECAUSE YOU CAN'T DO EVERYTHING. 1158 01:19:09,310 --> 01:19:12,180 OUR PROBLEM IS THAT WE DO LITTLE OR NOTHING AT ALL. 1159 01:19:12,180 --> 01:19:13,882 Silajdzic: THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY MUST HAVE 1160 01:19:13,882 --> 01:19:19,821 A MECHANISM THAT WILL QUICKLY REACT TO GENOCIDE. 1161 01:19:19,821 --> 01:19:21,389 THERE IS NO WAITING THERE, 1162 01:19:21,389 --> 01:19:23,892 THERE IS NO OTHER CONSIDERATION. 1163 01:19:23,892 --> 01:19:25,960 HUMAN LIFE MUST BE SAVED. 1164 01:19:25,960 --> 01:19:27,862 WE MUST ALL AGREE TO THIS. 1165 01:19:27,862 --> 01:19:29,864 IF THERE IS MASS KILLING SOMEWHERE, 1166 01:19:29,864 --> 01:19:32,167 THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY HAS THE RIGHT 1167 01:19:32,167 --> 01:19:37,205 TO INTERVENE. 1168 01:19:37,205 --> 01:19:40,642 YOU KNOW, WHEN IT BECOMES TOO LATE, IT'S TOO LATE. 1169 01:19:40,642 --> 01:19:43,178 Man: IN MANY INSTANCES, DIPLOMATIC EFFORTS 1170 01:19:43,178 --> 01:19:44,879 ARE GONNA BE UNSUCCESSFUL, 1171 01:19:44,879 --> 01:19:47,148 PARTICULARLY ONCE THE KILLING STARTS. 1172 01:19:47,148 --> 01:19:48,783 THE ONLY WAY YOU ARE GONNA STOP THAT 1173 01:19:48,783 --> 01:19:50,652 IS THROUGH THE USE OF MILITARY FORCE, 1174 01:19:50,652 --> 01:19:52,687 BUT IT'S GONNA BE VERY DIFFICULT 1175 01:19:52,687 --> 01:19:57,091 TO GET A WIDE CONSORTIUM OF COUNTRIES TO AGREE 1176 01:19:57,091 --> 01:19:58,293 THAT THERE'S AN AUTOMATIC TRIGGER 1177 01:19:58,293 --> 01:20:00,128 FOR MILITARY INTERVENTION. 1178 01:20:00,128 --> 01:20:04,065 IN DARFUR, YOU NEED AFRICAN GOVERNMENTS ON BOARD, 1179 01:20:04,065 --> 01:20:06,267 YOU NEED MIDDLE EASTERN GOVERNMENTS ON BOARD. 1180 01:20:06,267 --> 01:20:07,902 THIS HAS PROVED VERY DIFFICULT TO ACCOMPLISH. 1181 01:20:07,902 --> 01:20:11,206 YOU KNOW, I'M NOT A DIPLOMAT, AND I SAY WHY? 1182 01:20:11,206 --> 01:20:12,740 WHY DO WE NEED THEM ON BOARD? 1183 01:20:12,740 --> 01:20:17,745 I MEAN, YOU HAVE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE BEING SLAUGHTERED. 1184 01:20:17,745 --> 01:20:20,281 WHY DO WE NEED TO GET MIDDLE EASTERN GOVERNMENTS 1185 01:20:20,281 --> 01:20:21,549 OR AFRICAN GOVERNMENTS ON BOARD? 1186 01:20:21,549 --> 01:20:23,985 WHY NOT CREATE A NO-FLY ZONE, 1187 01:20:23,985 --> 01:20:26,020 WHY NOT BOMB THEIR MILITARY INSTALLATIONS? 1188 01:20:26,020 --> 01:20:27,689 FORGET ABOUT THE DIPLOMACY FOR A MINUTE. 1189 01:20:27,689 --> 01:20:31,926 WOULD IT BE EFFECTIVE, AND THEN HOW DO WE WEIGH IF IT WOULD BE 1190 01:20:31,926 --> 01:20:34,863 THE MORALITY OF IT VERSUS THE DIPLOMACY OF IT? 1191 01:20:34,863 --> 01:20:37,298 FROM THE MORAL PERSPECTIVE, YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. 1192 01:20:37,298 --> 01:20:38,733 I MEAN, WE DO HAVE A MORAL OBLIGATION. 1193 01:20:38,733 --> 01:20:41,736 IF WE'RE IN A POSITION TO ACT 1194 01:20:41,736 --> 01:20:44,772 AND WE HAVE THE ACTUAL CAPABILITY TO DO SO, 1195 01:20:44,772 --> 01:20:46,274 THEN I THINK WE SHOULD, 1196 01:20:46,274 --> 01:20:48,676 BUT IF YOU HAVE A SITUATION WHERE YOU'RE 1197 01:20:48,676 --> 01:20:51,946 NOT ABLE TO GET SUPPORT OF OTHER GOVERNMENTS, 1198 01:20:51,946 --> 01:20:54,449 IT MAY BE COUNTERPRODUCTIVE. 1199 01:20:54,449 --> 01:20:55,984 Goldhagen: GETTING THE SUPPORT OF OTHER GOVERNMENTS 1200 01:20:55,984 --> 01:20:58,553 SOUNDS GOOD, BUT AS HARIS SILAJDZIC 1201 01:20:58,553 --> 01:21:01,422 EXPERIENCED DURING THE DAYS OF THE BOSNIAN GENOCIDE, 1202 01:21:01,422 --> 01:21:03,691 CONVINCING LEADERS TO INTERVENE MILITARILY 1203 01:21:03,691 --> 01:21:05,727 IS EXTRAORDINARILY DIFFICULT. 1204 01:21:05,727 --> 01:21:08,363 WHAT WAS IT LIKE FOR YOU TRYING TO MOBILIZE 1205 01:21:08,363 --> 01:21:11,633 THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, THE POLITICAL LEADERS 1206 01:21:11,633 --> 01:21:14,269 OF THE EUROPEAN COUNTRIES, OF THE UNITED STATES, 1207 01:21:14,269 --> 01:21:17,639 THE U.N., AND SO ON TO DO SOMETHING? 1208 01:21:17,639 --> 01:21:22,176 WELL, THAT IS VERY FRUSTRATING, THE POWERLESSNESS, 1209 01:21:22,176 --> 01:21:23,745 VERY FRUSTRATING. 1210 01:21:23,745 --> 01:21:25,880 IT'S HARD TO MOVE THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY 1211 01:21:25,880 --> 01:21:27,549 TO REALLY DO SOMETHING. 1212 01:21:27,549 --> 01:21:32,287 IT'S THE PHILOSOPHY OF, UH... 1213 01:21:32,287 --> 01:21:35,657 THE LEAST RESISTANCE. 1214 01:21:35,657 --> 01:21:40,595 "LET'S DO THE EASIEST THING IN THE WORLD, SO LET'S WAIT. 1215 01:21:40,595 --> 01:21:45,500 MAYBE IT WILL GO AWAY." 1216 01:21:45,500 --> 01:21:47,936 Goldhagen: AS WE HAVE SEEN TIME AND AGAIN, 1217 01:21:47,936 --> 01:21:51,205 WHEN WE WAIT TO INTERVENE, PROBLEMS DON'T GO AWAY. 1218 01:21:51,205 --> 01:22:00,682 THEY ONLY GET WORSE. 1219 01:22:00,682 --> 01:22:02,850 THIS IS THE STORY OF ANOTHER MASS MURDER 1220 01:22:02,850 --> 01:22:05,987 THAT DIDN'T HAVE TO HAPPEN. 1221 01:22:05,987 --> 01:22:09,223 BY THE TIME IT DID, THE ELIMINATION OF BOSNIA'S MUSLIMS 1222 01:22:09,223 --> 01:22:11,459 HAD BEEN GOING ON FOR 3 YEARS. 1223 01:22:11,459 --> 01:22:14,362 THE OUTSIDE WORLD KNEW WHAT THE SERBS WERE UP TO, 1224 01:22:14,362 --> 01:22:16,064 WE KNEW WE COULD STOP IT, 1225 01:22:16,064 --> 01:22:21,536 AND DAY AFTER DAY, WE CHOSE NOT TO TAKE EFFECTIVE MEASURES. 1226 01:22:21,536 --> 01:22:24,205 IN 1995, THE CITY OF SREBRENICA, 1227 01:22:24,205 --> 01:22:28,443 DESIGNATED A SAFE HAVEN FOR BOSNIAN MUSLIMS BY THE UNITED NATIONS, 1228 01:22:28,443 --> 01:22:31,679 FELL TO SERB FORCES. 1229 01:22:31,679 --> 01:22:36,351 WITHIN DAYS, THE SERBS KILLED 8,000. 1230 01:22:36,351 --> 01:22:39,354 EACH YEAR, SOME OF THE VICTIMS EXHUMED FROM MASS GRAVES 1231 01:22:39,354 --> 01:22:42,690 ARE POSITIVELY IDENTIFIED AND GIVEN A PROPER BURIAL 1232 01:22:42,690 --> 01:22:50,198 ON THE ANNIVERSARY OF THE MASSACRE. 1233 01:22:50,198 --> 01:22:53,101 AS SREBRENICA FELL, THE MUSLIMS SOUGHT REFUGE 1234 01:22:53,101 --> 01:22:56,037 SEVERAL MILES AWAY AT THIS FACTORY COMPLEX, 1235 01:22:56,037 --> 01:22:57,572 WHICH SERVED AS THE HEADQUARTERS 1236 01:22:57,572 --> 01:23:13,021 OF A SMALL U.N. PEACEKEEPING FORCE. 1237 01:23:13,021 --> 01:23:15,456 Sudetic: YOU HAD 25,000 PEOPLE, 1238 01:23:15,456 --> 01:23:20,228 MANY OF THEM ELDERLY, WOMEN, AND CHILDREN 1239 01:23:20,228 --> 01:23:29,370 GATHERED IN THE YARD AROUND THIS BASE, SEEKING PROTECTION. 1240 01:23:29,370 --> 01:23:33,341 AND I THINK AT THAT TIME THERE WERE APPROXIMATELY 300 DUTCH TROOPS THERE, 1241 01:23:33,341 --> 01:23:35,043 FAR, FAR BELOW ANYTHING THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN 1242 01:23:35,043 --> 01:23:38,212 A CREDIBLE DETERRENT TO ANY KIND 1243 01:23:38,212 --> 01:23:57,865 OF MILITARY ACTION ON THE GROUND. 1244 01:23:57,865 --> 01:23:59,834 Goldhagen: AFTER THEY CAPTURED SREBRENICA, 1245 01:23:59,834 --> 01:24:05,740 SERB SOLDIERS UNDER THE COMMAND OF THE NOTORIOUS MASS MURDERER GENERAL RATKO MLADIC ARRIVED 1246 01:24:05,740 --> 01:24:18,252 AT THE U.N. BASE TO DEAL WITH THE MUSLIM REFUGEES. 1247 01:24:18,252 --> 01:24:20,688 [CHILDREN CRYING] 1248 01:24:20,688 --> 01:24:22,690 Sudetic: AFTER A NIGHT OF TERROR, 1249 01:24:22,690 --> 01:24:24,892 THE SERBS ANNOUNCED THAT THEY WERE GOING TO BE 1250 01:24:24,892 --> 01:24:30,298 TRANSPORTED TO FRIENDLY LINES IN BUSES, DON'T BE AFRAID. 1251 01:24:30,298 --> 01:24:33,000 THEY BROUGHT COOKIES FOR CHILDREN. 1252 01:24:33,000 --> 01:24:41,409 [SPEAKING NATIVE LANGUAGE] 1253 01:24:41,409 --> 01:24:46,414 THE SERBS SEPARATE THE MILITARY AGE MEN. 1254 01:24:46,414 --> 01:24:50,451 WHAT THAT MEANT WAS PRETTY MUCH ANYBODY 12 AND ABOVE TO ONE SIDE, 1255 01:24:50,451 --> 01:24:53,121 AND THEN THE WOMEN AND CHILDREN AND THE OLDER PEOPLE 1256 01:24:53,121 --> 01:26:41,128 TO THE OTHER. 1257 01:26:41,128 --> 01:26:42,930 Goldhagen: THIS IS HOW EASY IT WOULD HAVE BEEN 1258 01:26:42,930 --> 01:26:45,066 TO SAVE THE LIVES OF SABAHETA'S SON 1259 01:26:45,066 --> 01:26:47,668 AND 8,000 OTHERS IN SREBRENICA. 1260 01:26:47,668 --> 01:26:50,204 Woman: EARLY MORNING RAIDS OF MORE THAN 60 AIRCRAFT 1261 01:26:50,204 --> 01:26:54,008 FROM AS MANY AS 5 NATIONS POUNDED AIR DEFENSE MISSILES... 1262 01:26:54,008 --> 01:26:57,578 Goldhagen: IN AUGUST 1995, TWO MONTHS AFTER THE EXPULSION 1263 01:26:57,578 --> 01:27:00,081 AND MASS MURDER IN SREBRENICA 1264 01:27:00,081 --> 01:27:03,584 AND 3 YEARS AFTER THE GENOCIDE BEGAN, 1265 01:27:03,584 --> 01:27:06,087 NATO FORCES BEGAN A BOMBING CAMPAIGN 1266 01:27:06,087 --> 01:27:08,923 AGAINST SERBIAN MILITARY TARGETS. 1267 01:27:08,923 --> 01:27:10,858 IN JUST 3 WEEKS, THE BOMBING CHANGED 1268 01:27:10,858 --> 01:27:13,661 MILOSEVIC'S CALCULATIONS. 1269 01:27:13,661 --> 01:27:16,163 IN SHORT ORDER, SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC WAS 1270 01:27:16,163 --> 01:27:19,066 AT THE NEGOTIATING TABLE, DISCUSSING THE PEACE TREATY 1271 01:27:19,066 --> 01:27:21,969 THAT WOULD END HIS DEPREDATIONS IN BOSNIA. 1272 01:27:21,969 --> 01:27:24,839 THE BOSNIAN GENOCIDE WAS OVER. 1273 01:27:24,839 --> 01:27:26,540 LET'S TURN THE CLOCK BACK. 1274 01:27:26,540 --> 01:27:31,045 WHAT HAPPENS IF IN 1992 NATO STARTED TO BOMB 1275 01:27:31,045 --> 01:27:33,781 AND NOT WAITED UNTIL 1995 TO DO SO? 1276 01:27:33,781 --> 01:27:38,753 OH, THAT WOULD HAVE STOPPED EVERYTHING DEFINITELY. 1277 01:27:38,753 --> 01:27:42,356 WE WOULD HAVE SAVED THE LIVES OF 100,000 PEOPLE? 1278 01:27:42,356 --> 01:27:44,492 NOT ONLY THAT. THE CREDIBILITY 1279 01:27:44,492 --> 01:27:46,427 OF THE INTERNATIONAL ORDER, 1280 01:27:46,427 --> 01:27:49,363 THE CREDIBILITY OF JUSTICE, 1281 01:27:49,363 --> 01:27:52,566 THE CREDIBILITY OF HUMANITY. 1282 01:27:52,566 --> 01:28:10,751 THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN SAVED. 1283 01:28:10,751 --> 01:28:12,386 Goldhagen: THE PERPETRATORS OF ELIMINATION 1284 01:28:12,386 --> 01:28:16,557 ALMOST ALWAYS ACT WITH TOTAL IMPUNITY. 1285 01:28:16,557 --> 01:28:22,463 HERE IN GUATEMALA, A GENOCIDAL MASTERMIND WALKS FREELY. 1286 01:28:22,463 --> 01:28:28,069 IN FACT, HE CONTINUES TO SERVE IN THE COUNTRY'S CONGRESS. 1287 01:28:28,069 --> 01:28:31,339 [SPEAKS SPANISH] 1288 01:28:31,339 --> 01:28:34,208 Goldhagen, voice-over: AT THE TIME THIS KILLER COMMITTED HIS CRIMES, 1289 01:28:34,208 --> 01:28:36,811 HE BELIEVED HE WOULD GET AWAY WITH MURDER. 1290 01:28:36,811 --> 01:28:57,298 SO FAR, HE'S BEEN PROVEN RIGHT. 1291 01:28:57,298 --> 01:28:59,967 JOSÉ EFRAÍN RÍOS MONTT LED THIS COUNTRY 1292 01:28:59,967 --> 01:29:02,670 FOR NEARLY TWO TERRIFYING YEARS, 1293 01:29:02,670 --> 01:29:05,539 DURING WHICH HE WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR A WIDESPREAD CAMPAIGN 1294 01:29:05,539 --> 01:29:10,711 OF TERROR AND SLAUGHTER. 1295 01:29:10,711 --> 01:29:13,848 I WANTED TO GET A LOOK AT THIS MAN IN PERSON, 1296 01:29:13,848 --> 01:29:16,017 AND I HOPED OTILIA LUX DE COTI 1297 01:29:16,017 --> 01:29:17,852 A MEMBER OF GUATEMALA'S CONGRESS, 1298 01:29:17,852 --> 01:29:18,919 WOULD HELP. 1299 01:29:18,919 --> 01:29:56,757 HI. NICE TO MEET YOU. 1300 01:29:56,757 --> 01:30:01,695 Doyle: THE RÍOS MONTT PLAN FOR 1982 WAS CALLED VICTORIA. 1301 01:30:01,695 --> 01:30:06,367 THESE ARE PLANS THAT LAY OUT THE BROAD STRATEGY 1302 01:30:06,367 --> 01:30:09,403 OF HOW THE ARMY WAS GOING TO DESTROY COMMUNISM 1303 01:30:09,403 --> 01:30:11,405 AND WIPE OUT THE GUERRILLAS, 1304 01:30:11,405 --> 01:30:14,141 AND THE PLANS ARE VERY EXPLICIT ABOUT THE NEED 1305 01:30:14,141 --> 01:30:19,580 TO GO INTO THE MAYAN COMMUNITIES AND DESTROY THEM. 1306 01:30:19,580 --> 01:30:22,016 THEY CONTAIN OPERATIONAL ORDERS 1307 01:30:22,016 --> 01:30:23,184 TO GO INTO CERTAIN VILLAGES, 1308 01:30:23,184 --> 01:30:25,953 WHICH WERE, IN FACT, MASSACRED AND RAZED, 1309 01:30:25,953 --> 01:30:30,958 AND AFTER ACTION REPORTS IN WHICH THE COMMANDERS OF THOSE UNITS SAY, 1310 01:30:30,958 --> 01:30:33,694 "DUTY DONE. WE'VE, UH--WE'VE 1311 01:30:33,694 --> 01:30:35,229 "COMPLETED THE OPERATION, 1312 01:30:35,229 --> 01:30:37,431 AND THE VILLAGE IS"-- 1313 01:30:37,431 --> 01:30:40,801 UM, WHAT ARE SOME OF THE WORDS THEY USED? 1314 01:30:40,801 --> 01:30:42,369 "ELIMINATED." "THE VILLAGE IS ELIMINATED. 1315 01:30:42,369 --> 01:30:44,605 THE VILLAGE IS NEUTRALIZED." 1316 01:30:44,605 --> 01:30:47,007 [SPEAKING SPANISH] 1317 01:30:47,007 --> 01:30:48,943 Goldhagen: OTILIA LUX DE COTI IS TAKING ME 1318 01:30:48,943 --> 01:30:50,778 INTO THE HALLS OF CONGRESS, 1319 01:30:50,778 --> 01:30:55,749 WHERE THE FORMER DICTATOR MAINTAINS A POWERFUL PRESENCE. 1320 01:30:55,749 --> 01:30:57,718 IN THE ROUGH AND TUMBLE OF POLITICS, 1321 01:30:57,718 --> 01:30:59,553 THE CONGRESSWOMAN WORKS SIDE BY SIDE 1322 01:30:59,553 --> 01:31:01,589 WITH THE MAN RESPONSIBLE FOR THE MURDER 1323 01:31:01,589 --> 01:31:17,872 OF NEARLY 200,000 OF HER PEOPLE. 1324 01:31:17,872 --> 01:31:21,075 SEEING RÍOS MONTT IN THIS SETTING IS SURREAL. 1325 01:31:21,075 --> 01:31:25,679 IT'S LIKE ENCOUNTERING HITLER IN THE BUNDESTAG. 1326 01:31:25,679 --> 01:31:29,383 I HAVE STUDIED MASS MURDERERS FOR MORE THAN 3 DECADES, 1327 01:31:29,383 --> 01:31:31,752 BUT IT NEVER OCCURRED TO ME THAT I MIGHT ONE DAY STAND 1328 01:31:31,752 --> 01:31:37,124 BEFORE A GENOCIDAL MASTERMIND FACE TO FACE. 1329 01:31:37,124 --> 01:31:45,399 [SPEAKING SPANISH] 1330 01:31:45,399 --> 01:31:47,401 MAY I ASK YOU A QUESTION? 1331 01:31:47,401 --> 01:31:49,637 WAS THERE GENOCIDE IN GUATEMALA, AND WERE YOU RESPONSIBLE? 1332 01:31:49,637 --> 01:32:11,192 [SPEAKING SPANISH] 1333 01:32:11,192 --> 01:32:23,137 [SPEAKING SPANISH] 1334 01:32:23,137 --> 01:32:26,974 THE U.N. LAWS AND INTERNATIONAL CODES 1335 01:32:26,974 --> 01:32:31,845 HAVE A CONCEPT FOR GENOCIDE. 1336 01:32:31,845 --> 01:32:36,784 IT'S CLEARLY DEFINED. 1337 01:32:36,784 --> 01:32:41,889 WHEN YOU'RE GOING TO ELIMINATE AN ETHNICAL GROUP... 1338 01:32:41,889 --> 01:32:45,359 WHEN YOU'RE GOING TO ELIMINATE A RELIGIOUS GROUP... 1339 01:32:45,359 --> 01:32:55,736 OR A SPECIFIC GROUP OF PEOPLE. 1340 01:32:55,736 --> 01:32:58,806 THE DEFINITION CLEARLY STATES IT'S ELIMINATING SOMETHING. 1341 01:32:58,806 --> 01:33:02,910 THE DEFINITION STATES, ELIMINATING IN WHOLE OR IN PART 1342 01:33:02,910 --> 01:33:16,523 AN ETHNIC GROUP, WHICH THE MAYAN PEOPLE WERE. 1343 01:33:16,523 --> 01:33:18,225 HE AGREES WITH THAT. 1344 01:33:18,225 --> 01:33:24,798 AND SO WERE YOU RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS? 1345 01:33:24,798 --> 01:33:29,136 HE WOULD BE IN JAIL IF HE WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT. 1346 01:33:29,136 --> 01:33:30,971 Goldhagen, voice-over: I DON'T KNOW WHAT I WAS EXPECTING 1347 01:33:30,971 --> 01:33:33,073 BUT NOT THIS. 1348 01:33:33,073 --> 01:33:36,176 THE FORMER DICTATOR WAS EVASIVE AND COMBATIVE, 1349 01:33:36,176 --> 01:33:37,911 BUT REMARKABLY, HE STAYED TO TALK 1350 01:33:37,911 --> 01:33:39,880 FOR MORE THAN 20 MINUTES. 1351 01:33:39,880 --> 01:33:41,615 DO YOU ACCEPT THE HISTORICAL COMMISSION'S FINDING 1352 01:33:41,615 --> 01:33:45,352 THAT 200,000 INDIGENOUS MAYANS WERE KILLED 1353 01:33:45,352 --> 01:33:59,066 WHILE YOU WERE PRESIDENT BY YOUR MILITARY? 1354 01:33:59,066 --> 01:34:00,501 HE SAID THAT YOU SHOULD TAKE PROOF 1355 01:34:00,501 --> 01:34:06,240 AND CONVINCE HIM IN A COURT OF LAW. 1356 01:34:06,240 --> 01:34:08,275 STARING INTO THE EYES OF THIS KILLER, 1357 01:34:08,275 --> 01:34:12,279 I FEEL OUTRAGE AND DISGUST, 1358 01:34:12,279 --> 01:34:14,715 BUT MORE THAN ANYTHING, I AM REMINDED 1359 01:34:14,715 --> 01:34:17,551 THAT ALL OF THIS COMES DOWN TO A CHOICE. 1360 01:34:17,551 --> 01:34:21,388 MORE THAN 25 YEARS AGO AS THE POLITICAL LEADER OF HIS COUNTRY, 1361 01:34:21,388 --> 01:34:23,991 THIS MAN CONSIDERED HIS POLITICAL GOALS, 1362 01:34:23,991 --> 01:34:27,728 WEIGHED HIS OPTIONS, DECIDED HE COULD GET AWAY WITH IT, 1363 01:34:27,728 --> 01:34:30,831 AND MADE A CALCULATED DECISION TO MURDER AND EXPEL 1364 01:34:30,831 --> 01:34:34,468 HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF HIS COUNTRY'S PEOPLE. 1365 01:34:34,468 --> 01:34:39,740 THE QUESTION IS CAN WE GET FUTURE LEADERS TO MAKE A DIFFERENT DECISION? 1366 01:34:39,740 --> 01:34:47,247 I THINK WE CAN. 1367 01:34:47,247 --> 01:34:48,615 Woman: YOU KNOW, DANNY, YOU MIGHT BE SUGGESTING 1368 01:34:48,615 --> 01:34:50,584 WE CAN PREVENT ONE OF THE FEW THINGS IN THE WORLD 1369 01:34:50,584 --> 01:34:52,753 THAT PEOPLE SAY ARE UNSTOPPABLE 1370 01:34:52,753 --> 01:34:55,322 OR THAT WE HAVEN'T SEEMED TO BE ABLE TO STOP. 1371 01:34:55,322 --> 01:34:57,591 DO YOU THINK PEOPLE WILL JUST SAY, 1372 01:34:57,591 --> 01:35:00,027 "COME ON, DANNY. THAT'S--THAT'S NOT GONNA HAPPEN. 1373 01:35:00,027 --> 01:35:01,729 "IT'S NOT JUST ONE PERSON. 1374 01:35:01,729 --> 01:35:04,598 "WE'VE BEEN SCREAMING ABOUT THESE ISSUES FOR A LONG TIME, 1375 01:35:04,598 --> 01:35:07,601 AND THE LEADERS OF THE WORLD HAVEN'T LISTENED." 1376 01:35:07,601 --> 01:35:10,270 THE POLITICAL LEADERS WHO KILL OTHER PEOPLE 1377 01:35:10,270 --> 01:35:13,407 ARE OFTEN HATE-FILLED, POSSESSED BY IDEOLOGIES 1378 01:35:13,407 --> 01:35:15,342 THAT LEAD THEM TO SEE GROUPS OF PEOPLE 1379 01:35:15,342 --> 01:35:17,177 AS NECESSARY TO SLAUGHTER, 1380 01:35:17,177 --> 01:35:19,880 BUT THEY ARE NOT CRAZY. 1381 01:35:19,880 --> 01:35:24,918 THEY ARE RATIONAL CALCULATORS OF COSTS AND BENEFITS. 1382 01:35:24,918 --> 01:35:25,986 AFTER ALL, THESE PEOPLE HAVE RISEN 1383 01:35:25,986 --> 01:35:27,855 TO THE PINNACLE OF POWER IN THEIR COUNTRIES, 1384 01:35:27,855 --> 01:35:29,256 AND SO WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS THINK 1385 01:35:29,256 --> 01:35:33,961 ABOUT THEIR COST-BENEFIT CALCULUS. 1386 01:35:33,961 --> 01:35:36,196 LIKE RÍOS MONTT, ALL POLITICAL LEADERS 1387 01:35:36,196 --> 01:35:39,266 WHO INITIATE GENOCIDES AND ELIMINATIONS 1388 01:35:39,266 --> 01:35:41,168 KNOW THAT THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY 1389 01:35:41,168 --> 01:35:44,838 IS UNLIKELY TO INTERFERE WITH THEIR DEADLY PLANS. 1390 01:35:44,838 --> 01:35:48,609 Woman: THIS IS CASE NUMBER IT-95-5/18-I, 1391 01:35:48,609 --> 01:35:51,044 THE PROSECUTOR VERSUS RADOVAN KARADZIC. 1392 01:35:51,044 --> 01:35:52,713 Goldhagen: WE HAVE INTERNATIONAL COURTS, 1393 01:35:52,713 --> 01:35:54,415 AND THEY DO SOME GOOD, 1394 01:35:54,415 --> 01:35:57,718 BUT THEY ARE UNBEARABLY SLOW AND INEFFECTIVE... 1395 01:35:57,718 --> 01:35:59,386 Man: GOOD AFTERNOON, YOUR HONOR. 1396 01:35:59,386 --> 01:36:04,625 AND THE KILLING CONTINUES. 1397 01:36:04,625 --> 01:36:08,162 SO WHAT SHOULD WE DO? 1398 01:36:08,162 --> 01:36:10,464 FROM THE TRAGEDIES IN RWANDA AND ELSEWHERE, 1399 01:36:10,464 --> 01:36:12,733 WE'VE SEEN THAT THE INSTITUTIONS WE RELY ON 1400 01:36:12,733 --> 01:36:15,536 TO COMBAT GENOCIDE DON'T WORK, 1401 01:36:15,536 --> 01:36:18,705 AND IT'S CLEAR THAT AS IN KENYA TIMELY INTERVENTION 1402 01:36:18,705 --> 01:36:20,307 CAN GET POLITICAL LEADERS 1403 01:36:20,307 --> 01:36:24,178 TO STOP THE ELIMINATIONIST ASSAULT. 1404 01:36:24,178 --> 01:36:27,648 IN DEALING WITH A RECALCITRANT GENOCIDAL LEADER IN DARFUR, 1405 01:36:27,648 --> 01:36:30,083 WE'VE LEARNED THAT TO BE EFFECTIVE 1406 01:36:30,083 --> 01:36:33,520 INTERVENTION MUST OFTEN BE FORCEFUL 1407 01:36:33,520 --> 01:36:36,290 AND THAT, AS WAS THE CASE IN BOSNIA, 1408 01:36:36,290 --> 01:36:42,296 RELATIVELY LITTLE FORCE CAN ACHIEVE EXTRAORDINARY RESULTS, 1409 01:36:42,296 --> 01:36:46,066 AND WE KNOW ABOVE ALL THAT GENOCIDES ARE POLITICAL 1410 01:36:46,066 --> 01:36:48,569 AND THEY ARE INITIATED BY A FEW LEADERS 1411 01:36:48,569 --> 01:36:54,074 WHOSE COST-BENEFIT CALCULATIONS CAN BE CHANGED. 1412 01:36:54,074 --> 01:36:57,778 WE NEED TO CHANGE THAT CALCULATION. 1413 01:36:57,778 --> 01:37:00,347 Goldhagen: DO WE NEED TO HAVE A NEW INTERNATIONAL ORIENTATION 1414 01:37:00,347 --> 01:37:02,916 TOWARDS INTERVENTION AND GENOCIDE? 1415 01:37:02,916 --> 01:37:04,251 DEFINITELY. 1416 01:37:04,251 --> 01:37:05,619 HOW WOULD YOU REWRITE THE RULES 1417 01:37:05,619 --> 01:37:09,423 OF THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY ON THIS? 1418 01:37:09,423 --> 01:37:15,128 FIRST, GENOCIDE NEVER HAPPENS AS A SURPRISE. 1419 01:37:15,128 --> 01:37:19,867 NEVER. 1420 01:37:19,867 --> 01:37:25,506 THE SIGNS ARE USUALLY AVAILABLE AND APPARENT, 1421 01:37:25,506 --> 01:37:30,410 AND SO THERE SHOULD BE A DEBATE 1422 01:37:30,410 --> 01:37:34,248 AT THE U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL, 1423 01:37:34,248 --> 01:37:37,317 AT THE LEVEL OF THE EUROPEAN UNION, 1424 01:37:37,317 --> 01:37:38,652 AT THE LEVEL OF AFRICAN UNION, 1425 01:37:38,652 --> 01:37:43,290 OR OTHER POWERBROKERS 1426 01:37:43,290 --> 01:37:48,095 TO SET UNDER WHICH CIRCUMSTANCES 1427 01:37:48,095 --> 01:37:52,533 INTERVENTION WOULD BE DEEMED NECESSARY. 1428 01:37:52,533 --> 01:37:55,569 SO YOU DON'T WAIT UNTIL IT HAS HAPPENED. 1429 01:37:55,569 --> 01:37:57,838 THERE MUST BE PREVENTIVE MEASURES. 1430 01:37:57,838 --> 01:38:01,775 SO I THINK WE SHOULD GO BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD. 1431 01:38:01,775 --> 01:38:04,444 Goldhagen, voice-over: BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD INDEED. 1432 01:38:04,444 --> 01:38:08,582 GIVEN EVERYTHING I'VE SEEN AND STUDIED, THIS MUCH IS CLEAR. 1433 01:38:08,582 --> 01:38:12,953 INSTEAD OF THE U.N., WE NEED AN INTERNATIONAL WATCHDOG ORGANIZATION 1434 01:38:12,953 --> 01:38:16,123 MADE UP OF DEMOCRATIC NATIONS THAT WILL ENFORCE 1435 01:38:16,123 --> 01:38:22,462 A ZERO TOLERANCE POLICY ON GENOCIDE AND ELIMINATIONISM. 1436 01:38:22,462 --> 01:38:25,499 EACH OF THE MEMBERS MUST HAVE THE RIGHT TO INTERVENE 1437 01:38:25,499 --> 01:38:27,534 INDIVIDUALLY OR COLLECTIVELY 1438 01:38:27,534 --> 01:38:30,704 TO STOP CAMPAIGNS OF ELIMINATION, 1439 01:38:30,704 --> 01:38:33,774 BUT INTERVENTION, EVEN FORCEFUL INTERVENTION, 1440 01:38:33,774 --> 01:38:35,375 IS NOT ENOUGH. 1441 01:38:35,375 --> 01:38:36,910 BY THE TIME WE INTERVENE, 1442 01:38:36,910 --> 01:38:39,947 TENS OF THOUSANDS CAN BE DEAD OR HOMELESS. 1443 01:38:39,947 --> 01:38:43,617 WE NEED AN EFFECTIVE SYSTEM OF PREVENTION. 1444 01:38:43,617 --> 01:38:46,353 WE'VE GOT TO STOP GENOCIDES BEFORE THEY HAPPEN 1445 01:38:46,353 --> 01:38:48,889 BY SHOWING POLITICAL LEADERS THAT THE COSTS TO THEM 1446 01:38:48,889 --> 01:38:53,493 WILL FOR SURE FAR OUTWEIGH THE BENEFITS. 1447 01:38:53,493 --> 01:38:56,196 THE U.S. HAS A BOUNTY PROGRAM FOR GETTING PEOPLE 1448 01:38:56,196 --> 01:38:58,031 TO HUNT DOWN TERRORISTS. 1449 01:38:58,031 --> 01:39:00,167 WHY NOT HAVE DEMOCRATIC COUNTRIES DO THE SAME 1450 01:39:00,167 --> 01:39:03,804 FOR LEADERS WHO PERPETRATE GENOCIDES AND ELIMINATIONS? 1451 01:39:03,804 --> 01:39:06,273 LET'S SAY FOR EXAMPLE, THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY 1452 01:39:06,273 --> 01:39:09,176 DECLARED THE LEADERS OF COUNTRIES THAT COMMIT GENOCIDE 1453 01:39:09,176 --> 01:39:10,344 TO BE OUTLAWS. 1454 01:39:10,344 --> 01:39:13,547 THEY CAN BE HUNTED DOWN UNTIL THEY EITHER 1455 01:39:13,547 --> 01:39:16,116 GIVE THEMSELVES UP OR UNTIL THEY'RE KILLED. 1456 01:39:16,116 --> 01:39:17,751 WOULD MILOSEVIC UNDER THESE CIRCUMSTANCES 1457 01:39:17,751 --> 01:39:22,155 HAVE EVER INITIATED THE SLAUGHTER OF BOSNIANS? 1458 01:39:22,155 --> 01:39:23,657 I DON'T THINK HE WOULD. 1459 01:39:23,657 --> 01:39:29,162 HE COUNTED WITH POWERFUL FRIENDS 1460 01:39:29,162 --> 01:39:32,232 AND MOST OF ALL WITH THE FACTUAL SITUATION 1461 01:39:32,232 --> 01:39:34,267 ON THE GROUND, KNOWING THAT 1462 01:39:34,267 --> 01:39:38,939 THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY IS IN LOVE WITH THE STATUS QUO. 1463 01:39:38,939 --> 01:39:42,509 WE MUST SHOW THAT IT DOESN'T PAY. 1464 01:39:42,509 --> 01:39:48,248 IF PEOPLE KNEW THAT AT THE END OF THE DAY 1465 01:39:48,248 --> 01:39:50,517 THEY'D BE THE LOSERS, 1466 01:39:50,517 --> 01:39:53,286 THEY WOULD NEVER INVEST 1467 01:39:53,286 --> 01:39:55,188 IN A LOSING ENTERPRISE. 1468 01:39:55,188 --> 01:39:57,391 IT'S BECAUSE GENOCIDE IS A POLITICAL GAME, 1469 01:39:57,391 --> 01:39:59,526 IT'S A POWER PLAY, IT'S WORSE, 1470 01:39:59,526 --> 01:40:01,995 IT'S EVERYTHING. 1471 01:40:01,995 --> 01:40:07,300 IF PEOPLE INVOLVED IN KNEW AT THE END OF THE DAY 1472 01:40:07,300 --> 01:40:08,802 THEY'D BE THE LOSERS, 1473 01:40:08,802 --> 01:40:13,674 THEY WOULD NOT PLAY THE GAME, THAT'S FOR SURE. 1474 01:40:13,674 --> 01:40:15,409 Goldhagen: WHAT IS THE ALTERNATIVE TO DEALING 1475 01:40:15,409 --> 01:40:17,944 FORCEFULLY WITH GENOCIDAL LEADERS? 1476 01:40:17,944 --> 01:40:19,579 THE STATUS QUO, 1477 01:40:19,579 --> 01:40:26,286 MORE MASS MURDER, MORE LIVES DESTROYED. 1478 01:40:26,286 --> 01:40:30,323 THE KEY TO STOPPING GENOCIDE IS TO FOCUS ON THE LEADERS. 1479 01:40:30,323 --> 01:40:34,361 THE KEY TO GETTING US TO ACT IS TO IDENTIFY WITH THE VICTIMS, 1480 01:40:34,361 --> 01:40:36,663 TO THINK OF EACH ONE AS IF HE OR SHE WERE 1481 01:40:36,663 --> 01:40:40,100 YOUR DAUGHTER OR SON, YOUR SISTER OR BROTHER, 1482 01:40:40,100 --> 01:40:42,102 YOUR MOTHER OR YOUR FATHER. 1483 01:40:42,102 --> 01:40:48,241 WE'RE GONNA "T" INTO CAR--CAR-- CARMEN-- 1484 01:40:48,241 --> 01:40:49,576 I DON'T KNOW HOW TO READ IT. 1485 01:40:49,576 --> 01:40:51,878 Goldhagen, voice-over: MY JOURNEY ENDS WITH MY FATHER 1486 01:40:51,878 --> 01:40:54,614 AT THE PLACE WHERE HIS BEGAN. 1487 01:40:54,614 --> 01:40:59,319 SHORTLY AFTER THE GERMANS AND THE ROMANIAN ALLIES ENTERED MY FATHER'S TOWN, 1488 01:40:59,319 --> 01:41:01,888 THEY SLAUGHTERED 800 JEWS. 1489 01:41:01,888 --> 01:41:04,558 MY FATHER AND HIS FAMILY WERE NEARLY EXECUTED 1490 01:41:04,558 --> 01:41:06,960 ON A DIRT ROAD BEHIND THEIR HOUSE 1491 01:41:06,960 --> 01:41:12,766 SOMEWHERE IN THIS NEIGHBORHOOD. 1492 01:41:12,766 --> 01:41:13,834 DO YOU SEE ANY TRACKS? 1493 01:41:13,834 --> 01:41:16,336 THEY SHOULD BE STRAIGHT AHEAD. 1494 01:41:16,336 --> 01:41:18,205 IF WE END HERE, THE TRACKS SHOULD BE RIGHT DOWN HERE. 1495 01:41:18,205 --> 01:41:20,941 HERE THEY ARE. 1496 01:41:20,941 --> 01:41:22,342 TATI, SEE THE TRACKS? 1497 01:41:22,342 --> 01:41:23,677 I DON'T KNOW. DO YOU SEE THEM? 1498 01:41:23,677 --> 01:41:24,911 YES, THEY'RE RIGHT THERE. 1499 01:41:24,911 --> 01:41:26,880 OH, I SEE. YEAH. THAT WAS HERE. 1500 01:41:26,880 --> 01:41:34,621 I LIVED RIGHT HERE. 1501 01:41:34,621 --> 01:41:37,924 I RAN OUT WITH MY FATHER BEYOND FROM THERE. 1502 01:41:37,924 --> 01:41:39,025 OUT THE OTHER SIDE? 1503 01:41:39,025 --> 01:41:41,361 YES. I REMEMBER WE RAN OVER A FENCE, 1504 01:41:41,361 --> 01:41:43,363 AND AS WE WERE RUNNING, A SOLDIER SPIED US 1505 01:41:43,363 --> 01:41:44,831 AND BEAT MY FATHER VERY SEVERELY 1506 01:41:44,831 --> 01:41:46,333 WITH THE BUTT OF HIS RIFLE 1507 01:41:46,333 --> 01:41:48,101 AND PUT US AGAINST-- SAID, "WAIT HERE," 1508 01:41:48,101 --> 01:41:50,637 PUT US AGAINST-- OF COURSE THERE WAS A FENCE-- 1509 01:41:50,637 --> 01:41:52,139 AGAINST THE FENCE, 1510 01:41:52,139 --> 01:41:58,845 AND THEN HE TOLD ME TO TELL THE FAMILY TO COME-- 1511 01:41:58,845 --> 01:41:59,846 TO COME OUT. 1512 01:41:59,846 --> 01:42:00,847 SO HE SENT YOU BACK TO THE HOUSE? 1513 01:42:00,847 --> 01:42:02,215 HE SENT ME BACK TO THE HOUSE, 1514 01:42:02,215 --> 01:42:07,387 AND WE SAW NEIGHBORS STANDING BEYOND THIS RAILWAY, 1515 01:42:07,387 --> 01:42:10,390 AND WE REALIZED THAT THEY'RE LOOKING AT US 1516 01:42:10,390 --> 01:42:14,995 IN A CERTAIN WAY THAT THEY-- IN AN OMINOUS WAY. 1517 01:42:14,995 --> 01:42:24,070 THEY--WHICH DIDN'T-- WHICH DIDN'T BODE WELL, TO SAY THE LEAST. 1518 01:42:24,070 --> 01:42:26,940 NOW THAT WE'RE HERE, IS THIS--HAS IT CHANGED YOUR VIEW? 1519 01:42:26,940 --> 01:42:29,509 YOU SEE, THE POINT IS THAT THE SCHOLARLY ELEMENT-- 1520 01:42:29,509 --> 01:42:33,680 THE SCHOLAR WITHIN ME IMMEDIATELY TAKES OVER THE-- 1521 01:42:33,680 --> 01:42:38,985 AND OVERSHADOWS THE EMOTIONS OF THE SURVIVOR 1522 01:42:38,985 --> 01:42:42,622 WHO REVISITS THE SCENE OF HIS NEAR DEATH. 1523 01:42:42,622 --> 01:42:46,860 SO AS I TALK TO YOU, I BEGIN TO REFLECT, 1524 01:42:46,860 --> 01:42:49,095 DRAW HISTORICAL ANALOGIES, AND SO ON, 1525 01:42:49,095 --> 01:42:52,332 SO THEREFORE, IT HAS A CERTAIN TEMPERING EFFECT 1526 01:42:52,332 --> 01:42:54,501 UPON MY EMOTIONS AS I CONFRONT 1527 01:42:54,501 --> 01:42:56,002 THIS HOUSE WHERE I LIVED, 1528 01:42:56,002 --> 01:42:57,571 THIS STREET WHERE I WALKED, 1529 01:42:57,571 --> 01:43:03,109 AND REFLECTED ON MY BLOOD LYING IN THE DUST HERE, 1530 01:43:03,109 --> 01:43:06,580 BUT WHEN I REMEMBER THAT MOMENT AS I WALKED 1531 01:43:06,580 --> 01:43:08,315 AND I JUST COULDN'T BELIEVE-- 1532 01:43:08,315 --> 01:43:12,485 YES, I DID REFLECT UPON HOW I WOULD LIE DEAD. 1533 01:43:12,485 --> 01:43:14,821 WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE DEAD 1534 01:43:14,821 --> 01:43:17,357 AND TO LIE IN YOUR BLOOD? 1535 01:43:17,357 --> 01:43:39,346 I REMEMBERED VIVIDLY THIS IMAGERY THAT I HAD AS I WALKED, AND... 1536 01:43:39,346 --> 01:43:41,882 Goldhagen, voice-over: WHAT MUST IT FEEL LIKE FOR A 10-YEAR-OLD BOY 1537 01:43:41,882 --> 01:43:47,220 TO CONTEMPLATE HIS OWN IMMINENT, VIOLENT DEATH 1538 01:43:47,220 --> 01:43:53,360 OR A 16-YEAR-OLD GIRL OR A 19-YEAR-OLD MAN? 1539 01:43:53,360 --> 01:43:57,063 WHAT MUST IT FEEL LIKE TO BE IMPRISONED IN A RAPE CAMP 1540 01:43:57,063 --> 01:44:01,268 OR TO WATCH HELPLESSLY AS MEMBERS OF YOUR FAMILY ARE KILLED 1541 01:44:01,268 --> 01:44:12,979 OR AS YOUR PEOPLE ARE DECIMATED? 1542 01:44:12,979 --> 01:44:15,982 WHAT MUST IT HAVE BEEN LIKE FOR THE MEN OF SREBRENICA 1543 01:44:15,982 --> 01:44:19,686 WHO WERE HERDED INTO THIS WAREHOUSE 1544 01:44:19,686 --> 01:44:21,988 OR FOR THE OTHERS FORCED AT GUNPOINT 1545 01:44:21,988 --> 01:44:24,624 INTO NEARBY FIELDS TO BE EXECUTED? 1546 01:44:24,624 --> 01:45:03,863 [SPEAKING NATIVE LANGUAGE] 1547 01:45:03,863 --> 01:45:07,867 [GUNSHOT] 1548 01:45:07,867 --> 01:45:09,569 [GUNSHOT] 1549 01:45:09,569 --> 01:45:12,539 [GUNSHOT] 1550 01:45:12,539 --> 01:45:17,210 [GUNSHOT] 1551 01:45:17,210 --> 01:45:21,014 [RAPID GUNSHOTS] 1552 01:45:21,014 --> 01:45:32,859 [GUNFIRE CONTINUING] 1553 01:45:32,859 --> 01:45:39,432 [GUNFIRE CONTINUING] 1554 01:45:39,432 --> 01:45:42,402 Goldhagen: WE CAN'T STAND BY ANYMORE. 1555 01:45:42,402 --> 01:45:45,905 PEOPLE ARE DYING EVERY DAY. 1556 01:45:45,905 --> 01:45:48,708 A FEW POLITICAL LEADERS START GENOCIDES. 1557 01:45:48,708 --> 01:45:53,013 A FEW POLITICAL LEADERS CAN STOP THEM. 1558 01:45:53,013 --> 01:45:55,448 THE PRESIDENTS AND PRIME MINISTERS WE ELECT 1559 01:45:55,448 --> 01:45:59,152 HAVE THE POWER TO END IMPUNITY AND CHANGE THE CHOICES 1560 01:45:59,152 --> 01:46:04,958 POTENTIAL MASS KILLERS MAKE. 1561 01:46:04,958 --> 01:46:08,028 WE MUST HOLD OUR LEADERS ACCOUNTABLE AND DEMAND 1562 01:46:08,028 --> 01:46:29,315 THAT THEY BRING AN END TO GENOCIDE AND ELIMINATIONISM. 1563 01:46:29,315 --> 01:46:35,288 [INDISTINCT CHATTER] 1564 01:46:35,288 --> 01:46:36,756 THANK YOU. HOW DO YOU SAY THANK YOU? 1565 01:46:36,756 --> 01:46:38,158 I NEVER REMEMBER ANYTHING. 1566 01:46:38,158 --> 01:46:39,325 [MAN SPEAKS NATIVE LANGUAGE] 1567 01:46:39,325 --> 01:46:40,326 [REPEATS PHRASE] 1568 01:46:40,326 --> 01:46:42,429 EVERYONE. 1569 01:46:42,429 --> 01:46:45,665 Goldhagen, voice-over: I HAD BEEN WORKING ON "WORSE THAN WAR" 1570 01:46:45,665 --> 01:46:50,603 FOR ABOUT 10 YEARS BEFORE THE FILM PROJECT BEGAN. 1571 01:46:50,603 --> 01:46:52,906 WHEN I WRITE A BOOK, I CAN PRETTY MUCH SAY WHATEVER I WANT TO, 1572 01:46:52,906 --> 01:46:55,575 AND IF I DECIDE SOMETHING NEEDS 20 PAGES OF ELABORATION, 1573 01:46:55,575 --> 01:46:56,776 THEN I DO IT. 1574 01:46:56,776 --> 01:46:58,278 EVEN THOUGH I HAD THOUGHT AT THE BEGINNING, 1575 01:46:58,278 --> 01:47:01,181 "WELL, I KNOW WHAT THIS FILM SHOULD SAY," 1576 01:47:01,181 --> 01:47:02,615 IT TURNED INTO SOMETHING QUITE DIFFERENT 1577 01:47:02,615 --> 01:47:04,284 AND INFINITELY BETTER THAN ANYTHING 1578 01:47:04,284 --> 01:47:08,221 I WOULD HAVE PRODUCED HAD I BEEN THE FILMMAKER 1579 01:47:08,221 --> 01:47:11,024 BECAUSE I PROBABLY WOULD HAVE PRODUCED A NICE TWO-HOUR LECTURE 1580 01:47:11,024 --> 01:47:12,826 OF SOME KIND WITH VISUALS 1581 01:47:12,826 --> 01:47:15,962 INSTEAD OF A FILM THAT IS VISUALLY ARRESTING 1582 01:47:15,962 --> 01:47:17,730 AND EMOTIONALLY EVOCATIVE 1583 01:47:17,730 --> 01:47:21,101 AND, AS POWERFUL AS THE BOOK IS, 1584 01:47:21,101 --> 01:47:26,206 IN SOME WAYS OBVIOUSLY MORE POWERFUL. 1585 01:47:26,206 --> 01:47:31,077 WHEN MY FATHER AND I WENT TO WHERE HE HAD LIVED DURING THE HOLOCAUST, 1586 01:47:31,077 --> 01:47:35,915 SARAH MY WIFE AND GIDEON OUR SON CAME WITH US. 1587 01:47:35,915 --> 01:47:38,685 GIDEON AT THE TIME WAS 7 YEARS OLD, 1588 01:47:38,685 --> 01:47:40,386 AND HE WAS DEEPLY INTERESTED. 1589 01:47:40,386 --> 01:47:42,522 HE'S VERY CLOSE MY PARENTS. THEY LIVE NEARBY. 1590 01:47:42,522 --> 01:47:45,625 HE WAS DEEPLY INTERESTED IN GOING TO WHERE GRANDPA WAS FROM. 1591 01:47:45,625 --> 01:47:47,260 SO THEY CAME ON THE TRIP WITH US, 1592 01:47:47,260 --> 01:47:51,931 AND IT WAS SOMETHING THAT MADE MY FATHER ENORMOUSLY HAPPY. 1593 01:47:51,931 --> 01:47:54,434 THAT ONE OF HIS GRANDCHILDREN COULD SEE WHERE 1594 01:47:54,434 --> 01:47:57,170 MY FATHER CAME FROM AND WHERE HE SUFFERED 1595 01:47:57,170 --> 01:47:58,838 AND WHERE HIS FAMILY SUFFERED 1596 01:47:58,838 --> 01:48:01,674 MADE THE TRIP, IF ONE CAN SAY SUCH A THING, 1597 01:48:01,674 --> 01:48:12,719 TWICE AS MOVING AND MEMORABLE AND MEANINGFUL FOR HIM. 1598 01:48:12,719 --> 01:48:15,155 THERE'S NO DOUBT THAT MY FATHER INFLUENCED 1599 01:48:15,155 --> 01:48:19,125 MY INITIAL DIRECTION OF WORKING ON THE HOLOCAUST, 1600 01:48:19,125 --> 01:48:20,827 BUT IT'S LESS BECAUSE HE WAS A SURVIVOR 1601 01:48:20,827 --> 01:48:23,429 THAN HE WAS A PROFESSOR WHO STUDIED THIS, 1602 01:48:23,429 --> 01:48:25,632 AND I GREW UP WITH THIS MATERIAL IN MY HOME 1603 01:48:25,632 --> 01:48:28,501 ALWAYS WITH THE PURPOSE NOT OF TELLING A TALE OF WOE, 1604 01:48:28,501 --> 01:48:31,538 WHICH IT IS, BUT OF UNDERSTANDING AND EXPLAINING. 1605 01:48:31,538 --> 01:48:35,775 THIS WAS ALWAYS MY ORIENTATION FROM THE TIME I CAN REMEMBER 1606 01:48:35,775 --> 01:48:40,113 KNOWING OR THINKING ABOUT IT OR DISCUSSING IT, 1607 01:48:40,113 --> 01:48:47,220 BUT IT CHANGES YOU TO SEE THE PLACES. 1608 01:48:47,220 --> 01:48:51,624 THE CLICHÉ "A PICTURE'S WORTH A THOUSAND WORDS" 1609 01:48:51,624 --> 01:48:55,695 ONLY BEGINS TO CONVEY WHAT BEING IN A PLACE 1610 01:48:55,695 --> 01:48:57,864 AND SITTING ACROSS FROM THE VICTIMS 1611 01:48:57,864 --> 01:49:01,334 AND SEEING THE LOCATIONS WHERE PEOPLE WERE SLAUGHTERED 1612 01:49:01,334 --> 01:49:05,071 AND BEING IN A FORENSIC LAB WITH THE REMAINS OF VICTIMS 1613 01:49:05,071 --> 01:49:07,173 OR BEING IN A MASS GRAVE 1614 01:49:07,173 --> 01:49:10,143 OR STANDING ACROSS FROM A MASTERMIND OF GENOCIDE 1615 01:49:10,143 --> 01:49:12,912 SUCH AS RÍOS MONTT. 1616 01:49:12,912 --> 01:49:14,647 IT CHANGES YOU. 1617 01:49:14,647 --> 01:49:17,417 IT IS MORE THAN WORTH A THOUSAND WORDS. 1618 01:49:17,417 --> 01:49:23,556 IT'S WORTH ENDLESS, ENDLESS VOLUMES OF WORDS. 1619 01:49:23,556 --> 01:49:28,394 IN RWANDA, WE GAINED ACCESS TO ONE OF THE PRISON CAMPS. 1620 01:49:28,394 --> 01:49:33,266 IT'S ACTUALLY A WORK CAMP FOR PRISONERS WHO CONFESSED 1621 01:49:33,266 --> 01:49:35,335 TO THEIR CRIMES, OR AT LEAST SOME CRIMES, 1622 01:49:35,335 --> 01:49:38,705 TO CONFESS TO HAVING PARTICIPATED IN THE GENOCIDE. 1623 01:49:38,705 --> 01:49:41,507 IF YOU CAN BELIEVE THAT, THERE ARE ABOUT 1,000 PEOPLE IN THIS PRISON. 1624 01:49:41,507 --> 01:49:43,376 THERE WERE NO GUARDS. 1625 01:49:43,376 --> 01:49:45,078 SO WE INTERVIEWED THE PERPETRATORS IN THE FIELD. 1626 01:49:45,078 --> 01:49:46,479 THE WARDEN JUST BROUGHT PEOPLE TO US. 1627 01:49:46,479 --> 01:49:49,015 WE HAD NO IDEA WHO WE'D BE TALKING TO, 1628 01:49:49,015 --> 01:49:50,750 AND ALSO, WE WALKED AMONG THEM. 1629 01:49:50,750 --> 01:49:57,257 THEY WERE TILLING THE GROUND WITH HOES AND PICKS AND MACHETES, 1630 01:49:57,257 --> 01:50:00,159 CLEARING IT, AND YOU'RE WALKING AMONG THEM 1631 01:50:00,159 --> 01:50:03,496 WITHIN FEET OF ROWS OF THEM WIELDING THESE IMPLEMENTS, 1632 01:50:03,496 --> 01:50:08,968 AND YOU CAN'T BUT THINK THESE ARE THE IMPLEMENTS THEY USED TO SLAUGHTER 1633 01:50:08,968 --> 01:50:11,404 THEIR VICTIMS DURING THE GENOCIDE 1634 01:50:11,404 --> 01:50:14,641 BY THE INDIVIDUALLY, BY THE TENS, BY THE HUNDREDS, 1635 01:50:14,641 --> 01:50:18,811 BY THE THOUSANDS ULTIMATELY. 1636 01:50:18,811 --> 01:50:18,811 OK. 1637 01:50:18,811 --> 01:50:21,147 TELL ME WHEN. 1638 01:50:21,147 --> 01:50:24,284 SHAKING THE HAND OF A KILLER BEFORE I EVEN KNOW ANYTHING ELSE 1639 01:50:24,284 --> 01:50:26,586 ABOUT HIM EXCEPT FOR WHAT HIS NAME IS, 1640 01:50:26,586 --> 01:50:28,021 IS A STRANGE THING. 1641 01:50:28,021 --> 01:50:29,489 IT'S AN ACT OF POLITENESS. 1642 01:50:29,489 --> 01:50:32,625 IT'S A TIME OF HUMAN SHARING, 1643 01:50:32,625 --> 01:50:34,560 AND YET THAT SAME HAND-- I SHAKE THE HAND. 1644 01:50:34,560 --> 01:50:40,266 I THINK THE SAME HAND ACTUALLY WAS WIELDING A MACHETE 1645 01:50:40,266 --> 01:50:42,568 AND STRIKING AND KILLING 1646 01:50:42,568 --> 01:50:45,938 AND HACKING TO DEATH OTHER PEOPLE, 1647 01:50:45,938 --> 01:50:48,908 AND YOU CAN'T FLINCH, 1648 01:50:48,908 --> 01:50:51,577 AND YOU CAN'T SAY, "I DON'T WANT TO DO IT," 1649 01:50:51,577 --> 01:50:54,414 AND YOU HAVE TO DO IT BECAUSE IT'S PART 1650 01:50:54,414 --> 01:50:56,582 OF WHAT YOU NEED TO DO WHEN YOU INTERVIEW SOMEBODY, 1651 01:50:56,582 --> 01:50:59,385 AND THAT'S JUST THE BEGINNING OF SITTING ACROSS FROM SOMEONE 1652 01:50:59,385 --> 01:51:01,988 WHO THEN BEGINS TO TELL YOU OF THE HORRIBLE THINGS, 1653 01:51:01,988 --> 01:51:03,923 THE HORRIFYING THINGS THAT HE DID, 1654 01:51:03,923 --> 01:51:06,926 THE WAYS THAT HE DID IT. 1655 01:51:06,926 --> 01:51:09,796 AND SO THERE I AM, A WHOLE JUMBLE OF EMOTIONS 1656 01:51:09,796 --> 01:51:14,434 AND THOUGHT AND DIFFERENT ORIENTATIONS AT THE SAME TIME-- 1657 01:51:14,434 --> 01:51:17,403 THE INTERVIEWER, THE SCHOLAR THINKING ABOUT WHAT HE SAYS, 1658 01:51:17,403 --> 01:51:19,439 THE ANALYST, THE HUMAN BEING SITTING 1659 01:51:19,439 --> 01:51:21,874 ACROSS FROM A MASS MURDERER, 1660 01:51:21,874 --> 01:51:24,310 FEELING A DEGREE OF SYMPATHY OR EVEN OF LIKING FOR SOMEONE, 1661 01:51:24,310 --> 01:51:26,379 BECAUSE SOME SEEM LIKEABLE, 1662 01:51:26,379 --> 01:51:38,024 AND ALSO ALWAYS KEEPING IN MIND THAT THESE ARE MASS MURDERERS. 1663 01:51:38,024 --> 01:51:44,130 TO BE ABLE IN MAKING THIS FILM TO GO TO ANY NUMBER OF COUNTRIES 1664 01:51:44,130 --> 01:51:46,966 AND TO TALK TO THE VICTIMS, TO TALK TO THE PERPETRATORS, 1665 01:51:46,966 --> 01:51:50,036 JUST TO SEE THE PLACES I'D READ ABOUT 1666 01:51:50,036 --> 01:51:52,472 WAS TRANSFORMATIVE, 1667 01:51:52,472 --> 01:51:57,343 AND I THINK BACK ON THE PEOPLE QUITE OFTEN I TALKED TO. 1668 01:51:57,343 --> 01:52:00,279 THEY RESONATE WITH ME. THEIR FACES I SEE. 1669 01:52:00,279 --> 01:52:06,786 IN THE FILM, MY FATHER AND SOME OTHERS TALKED ABOUT SEEING FACES. 1670 01:52:06,786 --> 01:52:08,688 THEY'RE HAUNTED BY THEM, OR THEY REMEMBER THEM, 1671 01:52:08,688 --> 01:52:10,990 THE FACES OF THE PEOPLE WHO DIED. 1672 01:52:10,990 --> 01:52:15,228 WELL, THE FACES OF THE PEOPLE I SPOKE WITH AND THEIR WORDS ARE WITH ME 1673 01:52:15,228 --> 01:52:20,266 IN THE WAY THAT THE TESTIMONY IN DOCUMENTS 1674 01:52:20,266 --> 01:52:23,970 AND COURT TESTIMONY AND SO ON NEVER ARE WITH ME. 1675 01:52:23,970 --> 01:52:28,674 I HEAR THEM, I SEE THEM, I THINK ABOUT THEM. 1676 01:52:28,674 --> 01:52:33,880 I ABSORBED AND INTERNALIZED THINGS INTO MY BEING 1677 01:52:33,880 --> 01:52:43,423 THAT WERE NEVER THERE AND THAT WILL NEVER LEAVE ME. 1678 01:52:43,423 --> 01:52:51,731 Announcer: "WORSE THAN WAR" WAS MADE POSSIBLE BY... 1679 01:52:51,731 --> 01:52:57,670 AND... 1680 01:52:57,670 --> 01:53:19,425 ADDITIONAL FUNDING WAS PROVIDED BY... 1681 01:53:19,425 --> 01:53:22,495 CAPTIONING MADE POSSIBLE BY FRIENDS OF NCI 1682 01:53:22,495 --> 01:53:30,303 CAPTIONED BY THE NATIONAL CAPTIONING INSTITUTE --www.ncicap.org-- 1683 01:53:30,303 --> 01:53:33,506 "WORSE THAN WAR" CONTINUES ONLINE. 1684 01:53:33,506 --> 01:53:34,740 FOR MORE RESOURCES, 1685 01:53:34,740 --> 01:53:37,310 INFORMATION ABOUT THE PHENOMENON OF GENOCIDE, 1686 01:53:37,310 --> 01:53:39,712 AND EXCERPTS FROM DANIEL GOLDHAGEN'S BOOK, 1687 01:53:39,712 --> 01:53:43,516 VISIT PBS.ORG. 1688 01:53:43,516 --> 01:53:46,752 THE "WORSE THAN WAR" PROGRAM IS AVAILABLE ON DVD 1689 01:53:46,752 --> 01:53:50,289 FOR $24.95 PLUS SHIPPING. 1690 01:53:50,289 --> 01:53:55,228 THE COMPANION BOOK IS AVAILABLE FOR $29.95 PLUS SHIPPING. 1691 01:53:55,228 --> 99:59:59,999 TO ORDER, CALL 1-800-336-1917.