0:00:04.470,0:00:05.571
[REPORTERS TALKING ALL AT ONCE]

0:00:05.571,0:00:05.571
DARFUR...

0:00:05.571,0:00:05.571
GUATEMALA...

0:00:05.571,0:00:06.906
THE NAZI KILLERS...

0:00:06.906,0:00:08.041
Narrator: GENOCIDE.

0:00:08.041,0:00:08.041
I MEAN, WHY WERE THEY DOING THIS?

0:00:08.041,0:00:09.242
TERROR.

0:00:09.242,0:00:11.577
BEST-SELLING HISTORIAN DANIEL GOLDHAGEN

0:00:11.577,0:00:13.346
EXPLORES THE MOTIVE...

0:00:13.346,0:00:15.515
GENOCIDE NEVER HAPPENS AS A SURPRISE.

0:00:15.515,0:00:17.450
AND EXPLODES THE MYTH...

0:00:17.450,0:00:18.918
THESE PEOPLE HAD TO BE ELIMINATED.

0:00:18.918,0:00:20.653
BEHIND A CRIME...

0:00:20.653,0:00:22.488
IT WAS CRUELTY THAT OVERCAME US,

0:00:22.488,0:00:23.790
ME AND MY FELLOW CRIMINALS.

0:00:23.790,0:00:26.159
GENOCIDE IS ALWAYS POLITICS.

0:00:26.159,0:00:28.661
THAT'S WORSE THAN WAR.

0:00:28.661,0:00:33.433
CAPTIONING MADE POSSIBLE BY FRIENDS OF NCI

0:00:33.433,0:00:36.436
"WORSE THAN WAR" WAS MADE POSSIBLE BY...

0:00:36.436,0:00:41.441
THE PERSHING SQUARE FOUNDATION...

0:00:41.441,0:00:47.447
AND THE EINHORN FAMILY CHARITABLE TRUST.

0:00:47.447,0:01:07.900
ADDITIONAL FUNDING WAS PROVIDED BY...

0:01:07.900,0:01:14.907
[BIRD CHIRPING]

0:01:14.907,0:01:18.411
Man: SO ALL THE PEOPLE HERE MURDERED OTHER PEOPLE?

0:01:18.411,0:01:21.414
[TRANSLATOR SPEAKS NATIVE LANGUAGE]

0:01:21.414,0:01:55.982
YES. YOU CAN'T BE HERE IF YOU HAVEN'T KILLED.

0:01:55.982,0:02:04.090
[BIRD CHIRPING]

0:02:04.090,0:02:07.326
CAN YOU SHOW ME HOW YOU-- HOW THE PERSON WAS HACKED?

0:02:07.326,0:02:47.433
[TRANSLATOR SPEAKS NATIVE LANGUAGE]

0:02:47.433,0:02:51.604
I'VE BEEN THINKING AND WRITING ABOUT GENOCIDE FOR NEARLY 30 YEARS,

0:02:51.604,0:02:54.607
IT'S SOMETHING PEOPLE DON'T MUCH LIKE TO TALK ABOUT

0:02:54.607,0:02:58.611
AND ABOUT WHICH MOST OF US REMAIN DANGEROUSLY MISINFORMED.

0:02:58.611,0:03:02.548
Woman: GOOD EVENING. A NEW BOOK CALLED "HITLER'S WILLING EXECUTIONERS,"

0:03:02.548,0:03:04.550
A HIGHLY CONTROVERSIAL ACCOUNT OF THE HOLOCAUST...

0:03:04.550,0:03:06.052
Man: THE AMERICAN DANIEL GOLDHAGEN SAYS

0:03:06.052,0:03:09.555
THE EXCUSE OF ONLY OBEYING ORDERS WON'T WASH.

0:03:09.555,0:03:12.058
[MAN SPEAKS NATIVE LANGUAGE]

0:03:12.058,0:03:14.393
Jane Pauley: A CONTROVERSIAL BOOK ABOUT THE HOLOCAUST,

0:03:14.393,0:03:16.395
RAISING A TROUBLING NEW QUESTION:

0:03:16.395,0:03:18.397
WERE NAZI KILLERS HELPED

0:03:18.397,0:03:21.601
BY HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF ORDINARY GERMANS?

0:03:21.601,0:03:25.104
THEY SUBJECTED THE VICTIMS TO GRATUITOUS BRUTALITY,

0:03:25.104,0:03:26.772
INCESSANT CRUELTY,

0:03:26.772,0:03:28.941
SO THE PICTURE THAT EMERGES IS NOT OF RELUCTANT PEOPLE

0:03:28.941,0:03:31.110
WHO ARE COMPELLED TO DO WHAT THEY DID,

0:03:31.110,0:03:34.113
BUT PEOPLE WHO AGREED WITH THE PROGRAM, WHO BELIEVED

0:03:34.113,0:03:40.786
THAT THE DEATH OF THE JEWS WAS NECESSARY AND JUST.

0:03:40.786,0:03:44.290
Goldhagen: I'VE SPENT MY PROFESSIONAL LIFE TRYING TO DISPEL THE MANY MYTHS

0:03:44.290,0:03:46.792
THAT CLOUD PEOPLE'S JUDGMENT AND PREVENT US FROM DOING

0:03:46.792,0:03:56.469
SOMETHING EFFECTIVE TO STOP THE KILLING.

0:03:56.469,0:03:59.472
GENOCIDES HAPPEN IN EVERY CORNER OF THE WORLD,

0:03:59.472,0:04:03.309
THROUGH EVERY TYPE OF PEOPLE.

0:04:03.309,0:04:09.882
THE NUMBERS IN THE PAST 100 YEARS ARE STAGGERING.

0:04:09.882,0:04:14.887
THE TURKS SLAUGHTERED MORE THAN A MILLION ARMENIANS DURING WORLD WAR I.

0:04:14.887,0:04:17.890
IN THE 1930s AND 1940s,

0:04:17.890,0:04:22.695
THE JAPANESE KILLED MILLIONS ACROSS ASIA.

0:04:22.695,0:04:24.130
IN THE SOVIET UNION,

0:04:24.130,0:04:26.599
THE ESTIMATED NUMBER OF DEATHS IN THE GULAG CAMPS

0:04:26.599,0:04:30.836
AND BEYOND IS MORE THAN 8 MILLION.

0:04:30.836,0:04:33.539
THE GERMANS SLAUGHTERED 6 MILLION JEWS

0:04:33.539,0:04:36.509
AND MILLIONS MORE DURING WORLD WAR II.

0:04:36.509,0:04:38.511
IN THE 1950s AND 1960s,

0:04:38.511,0:04:43.049
THE COMMUNIST CHINESE KILLED AN ESTIMATED 30 MILLION,

0:04:43.049,0:04:45.051
AND DURING THE 1970s,

0:04:45.051,0:04:48.554
THE KHMER ROUGE KILLED 1.7 MILLION CAMBODIANS--

0:04:48.554,0:04:52.491
FULLY 20% OF THEIR COUNTRY'S POPULATION.

0:04:52.491,0:04:54.593
BOSNIA,

0:04:54.593,0:04:55.695
RWANDA,

0:04:55.695,0:04:56.696
CONGO,

0:04:56.696,0:04:58.698
DARFUR.

0:04:58.698,0:05:01.133
ALL TOLD, IN OUR TIME

0:05:01.133,0:05:05.705
THERE HAVE BEEN MORE THAN 100 MILLION INNOCENT VICTIMS OF GENOCIDE--

0:05:05.705,0:05:09.709
MORE THAN ALL THE COMBAT DEATHS IN ALL THE WARS FOUGHT

0:05:09.709,0:05:13.212
DURING THAT TIME EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD.

0:05:13.212,0:05:17.717
BASED ON THE HUMAN TOLL ALONE, GENOCIDE AND MASS SLAUGHTER

0:05:17.717,0:05:21.721
ARE WORSE PROBLEMS PLAGUING HUMANITY THAN WAR.

0:05:21.721,0:05:27.226
WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND WHY.

0:05:27.226,0:05:30.229
Man: IT IS A GREAT, DIFFICULT TASK YOU'RE FACING

0:05:30.229,0:05:35.134
TO CONVEY HUMAN BEINGS WHOSE BEHAVIOR SEEMS TO DEFY UNDERSTANDING,

0:05:35.134,0:05:37.136
AND THEY WERE BEYOND BELIEF.

0:05:37.136,0:05:39.138
Goldhagen, voice-over: IN MY WORK, I HAVE BENEFITED FROM THE WISDOM

0:05:39.138,0:05:40.639
OF A VALUED MENTOR,

0:05:40.639,0:05:42.141
A SCHOLAR OF GENOCIDE,

0:05:42.141,0:05:44.143
AND SURVIVOR OF THE HOLOCAUST.

0:05:44.143,0:05:46.145
BUT, YOU KNOW, AT THIS POINT, THOUGH--

0:05:46.145,0:05:48.547
BUT LET ME JUST REMIND YOU...

0:05:48.547,0:05:50.549
HE ALSO HAPPENS TO BE MY FATHER.

0:05:50.549,0:05:53.052
WHEN THE FIRST NEWS OF THE GAS CHAMBERS CAME,

0:05:53.052,0:05:56.555
THE JEWISH COMMUNITY WAS VERY SKEPTICAL OF IT.

0:05:56.555,0:05:58.557
RIGHT, BUT WE'RE IN A DIFFERENT TIME NOW.

0:05:58.557,0:06:00.493
NOBODY DISBELIEVES THAT THESE THINGS HAPPENED.

0:06:00.493,0:06:01.994
THAT'S QUITE TRUE.

0:06:01.994,0:06:03.929
WHAT THEY HAVE DIFFICULTY UNDERSTANDING--

0:06:03.929,0:06:05.998
IS WHY IT HAPPENED, YES.

0:06:05.998,0:06:09.001
AND ACCEPTING NOTIONS THAT VIOLATE THEIR OWN

0:06:09.001,0:06:11.003
COMMON-SENSE UNDERSTANDINGS OF THE WORLD.

0:06:11.003,0:06:13.005
THERE'S A CERTAIN PARADOX HERE

0:06:13.005,0:06:16.008
BECAUSE SOMETIMES ONE ACCEPTS VERY HIGHLY,

0:06:16.008,0:06:19.011
SEEMINGLY ORIGINAL, PROFOUND THEORIES,

0:06:19.011,0:06:23.616
AND SOMETIMES THE EXPLANATION IS RELATIVELY SIMPLE.

0:06:23.616,0:06:26.619
I THINK THE ACTUAL EXPLANATIONS ARE--

0:06:26.619,0:06:29.121
ARE THREATENING AND UNSETTLING TO PEOPLE.

0:06:29.121,0:06:32.625
THE NOTION THAT ORDINARY PEOPLE WOULD WILLFULLY BUTCHER OTHER PEOPLE,

0:06:32.625,0:06:35.161
TORTURE THEM, INCLUDING CHILDREN, SLAUGHTER THEM,

0:06:35.161,0:06:37.863
IS A VERY DISTURBING NOTION TO PEOPLE,

0:06:37.863,0:06:40.366
PARTICULARLY IF THEY'RE LOOKING UPON PEOPLE WITH WHOM THEY IDENTIFY.

0:06:40.366,0:06:42.568
SO THEY SEEK EXPLANATIONS WHICH ARE MORE--

0:06:42.568,0:06:45.571
I WOULDN'T SAY MORE COMFORTING, BUT LESS THREATENING TO THEM...

0:06:45.571,0:06:48.574
Goldhagen, voice-over: AS EARLY AS I CAN REMEMBER THINKING SERIOUS THOUGHTS,

0:06:48.574,0:06:52.445
MY FATHER AND I HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THESE THINGS.

0:06:52.445,0:06:56.949
AS A SCHOLAR, HE JOURNEYED INTO THE DARKEST CHAPTERS OF THE HUMAN EXPERIENCE,

0:06:56.949,0:07:01.387
SEEKING TO UNDERSTAND NOT ONLY WHAT HAPPENED, BUT WHY.

0:07:01.387,0:07:05.391
NOW I AM CONTINUING THE JOURNEY HE BEGAN,

0:07:05.391,0:07:18.604
A JOURNEY THAT IN A SENSE, I HAVE BEEN ON MY ENTIRE LIFE.

0:07:18.604,0:07:24.110
PEOPLE NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT NOTHING IS INEVITABLE ABOUT GENOCIDE.

0:07:24.110,0:07:32.618
IT BOILS DOWN TO A SERIES OF CHOICES.

0:07:32.618,0:07:35.855
LEADERS CHOOSE TO INITIATE THE KILLING,

0:07:35.855,0:07:42.361
ORDINARY PEOPLE MAKE A CONSCIOUS CHOICE TO PARTICIPATE...

0:07:42.361,0:07:45.364
AND THOSE WITH THE POWER TO PREVENT OR STOP IT

0:07:45.364,0:07:50.636
CHOOSE TO DO NOTHING.

0:07:50.636,0:07:53.139
I STUDY GENOCIDES BECAUSE I BELIEVE

0:07:53.139,0:07:56.142
THE MORE WE KNOW ABOUT HOW AND WHY GENOCIDES HAPPEN,

0:07:56.142,0:07:58.744
THE MORE WE CAN GET POLITICAL LEADERS

0:07:58.744,0:08:04.116
AND ORDINARY PEOPLE TO MAKE DIFFERENT CHOICES.

0:08:04.116,0:08:07.186
IMAGINE IF ONE DAY, PEOPLE IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD

0:08:07.186,0:08:15.060
WERE DRAGGED OUT OF THEIR HOMES AND KILLED IN THE STREET.

0:08:15.060,0:08:18.063
YOU WOULD WANT THE KILLERS STOPPED AND PUNISHED,

0:08:18.063,0:08:22.902
AND YOU WOULD WANT TO KNOW THAT IT WOULD NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN.

0:08:22.902,0:08:25.404
WHY SHOULD IT BE ANY DIFFERENT

0:08:25.404,0:08:29.542
WHEN THE VICTIMS ARE SOMEWHERE ELSE?

0:08:29.542,0:08:32.044
LIKE THE PEOPLE IN YOUR COMMUNITY,

0:08:32.044,0:08:34.747
EACH GENOCIDE VICTIM IS AN INDIVIDUAL.

0:08:34.747,0:08:43.022
A FATHER, A MOTHER, A DAUGHTER, A SON.

0:08:43.022,0:08:47.426
AS A SCHOLAR, I SPEND MOST OF MY TIME IN ARCHIVES AND LIBRARIES.

0:08:47.426,0:08:51.931
BUT OVER THE PAST YEAR, I TRAVELED TO THESE "SOMEWHERE ELSES,"

0:08:51.931,0:08:56.068
THE SITES OF SOME OF THE WORST MASS MURDERS OF OUR TIME.

0:08:56.068,0:09:02.007
[BIRDS CHIRPING]

0:09:02.007,0:09:07.580
[DOOR CLANGS]

0:09:07.580,0:09:13.586
IT'S BEEN DECADES STUDYING NAZIS AND THE HOLOCAUST, GENOCIDE,

0:09:13.586,0:09:23.462
BUT I'VE NEVER BEEN IN A GAS CHAMBER BEFORE.

0:09:23.462,0:09:25.464
I STARTED MY JOURNEY MINDFUL

0:09:25.464,0:09:28.467
THAT THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A TIME DURING THE PAST CENTURY

0:09:28.467,0:09:31.971
WHEN OUR PLANET WAS FREE OF MASS MURDER,

0:09:31.971,0:09:33.973
INCLUDING NOW.

0:09:33.973,0:09:35.474
Woman: FOR 5 LONG YEARS,

0:09:35.474,0:09:38.978
DARFUR HAS BEEN A SCENE OF DEVASTATION AND DESTRUCTION.

0:09:38.978,0:09:41.480
300,000 PEOPLE HAVE DIED

0:09:41.480,0:09:43.983
AND 2.5 MILLION HAVE FLED THEIR HOMES

0:09:43.983,0:09:46.986
AS THE SUDANESE GOVERNMENT HAS TRIED TO CRUSH A REBELLION

0:09:46.986,0:09:49.488
AGAINST ITS RULE.

0:09:49.488,0:09:53.993
Goldhagen: THE PLIGHT OF DARFUR HAS MOVED PEOPLE OF CONSCIENCE AROUND THE WORLD

0:09:53.993,0:09:59.265
AND HAS ONLY INTENSIFIED MY DESIRE TO KNOW MORE...

0:09:59.265,0:10:02.768
TO SEE THE PLACES WHERE THE HORRORS HAVE HAPPENED,

0:10:02.768,0:10:05.204
MEET THE PEOPLE WHO WERE THERE,

0:10:05.204,0:10:08.707
AND ASK THE KINDS OF QUESTIONS YOU HAVE TO ASK,

0:10:08.707,0:10:15.714
EVEN THOUGH SOMETIMES YOU MAY DREAD HEARING THE ANSWER.

0:10:15.714,0:10:18.717
Goldhagen: WHEN THE GENOCIDE BEGAN, WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU?

0:10:18.717,0:10:20.719
[TRANSLATOR SPEAKING NATIVE LANGUAGE]

0:10:20.719,0:10:31.897
AND HER FAMILY.

0:10:31.897,0:10:34.400
SHE SAID HER DAD WAS KILLED LIKE--

0:10:34.400,0:10:40.539
HE WAS, YOU KNOW, CHOPPED. HE WAS CUT WITH A MACHETE.

0:10:40.539,0:10:43.042
AND THE MOM WAS CHOPPED. THAT WHAT SHE'S SAYING

0:10:43.042,0:10:48.580
IS SHE WAS CHOPPED WITH A MACHETE.

0:10:48.580,0:10:52.685
AND THE BROTHER WAS, ALSO.

0:10:52.685,0:10:54.353
WHO KILLED HER FAMILY?

0:10:54.353,0:10:56.188
WERE THESE JUST LOCAL PEOPLE WHO LIVE THROUGH HERE?

0:10:56.188,0:11:01.860
[TRANSLATOR SPEAKS NATIVE LANGUAGE]

0:11:01.860,0:11:03.562
SHE SAYS THEY WERE NEIGHBORS.

0:11:03.562,0:11:18.510
MOST OF THAT, THEY WERE EVEN FRIENDS TO THE FAMILY.

0:11:18.510,0:11:22.548
[COW BELLOWS]

0:11:22.548,0:11:25.050
Goldhagen: IN GENOCIDE AFTER GENOCIDE,

0:11:25.050,0:11:28.053
THESE ARE THE QUESTIONS THAT CONTINUE TO BE ASKED:

0:11:28.053,0:11:31.390
HOW DO NEIGHBORS END UP TURNING AGAINST NEIGHBORS?

0:11:31.390,0:11:35.561
WHY DO THE KILLERS KILL?

0:11:35.561,0:11:37.563
HERE IN RWANDA,

0:11:37.563,0:11:41.066
MORE THAN 800,000 MEN, WOMEN, AND CHILDREN

0:11:41.066,0:11:46.071
WERE KILLED OVER THE COURSE OF 3 MONTHS.

0:11:46.071,0:11:48.240
MOST WERE ETHNIC TUTSI,

0:11:48.240,0:11:51.243
MURDERED BY MEMBERS OF THE HUTU MAJORITY,

0:11:51.243,0:11:54.246
FACE TO FACE WITH MACHETES,

0:11:54.246,0:11:59.752
CLUBS, AND GUNS.

0:11:59.752,0:12:29.014
HITLER'S GAS CHAMBERS DID NOT KILL WITH SUCH DEADLY EFFICIENCY.

0:12:29.014,0:12:31.517
Goldhagen: WHEN PEOPLE KILLED THE VICTIMS,

0:12:31.517,0:12:35.020
DID THEY TRY TO KILL THEM AS PAINLESSLY AS POSSIBLE

0:12:35.020,0:12:37.523
OR DID THEY TRY TO MAKE THEM SUFFER?

0:12:37.523,0:13:04.450
[TRANSLATOR SPEAKING NATIVE LANGUAGE]

0:13:04.450,0:13:08.020
Goldhagen: I FIND IT HARD TO UNDERSTAND, AND I WANT TO UNDERSTAND,

0:13:08.020,0:13:11.023
HOW PEOPLE COULD APPROACH OTHER PEOPLE,

0:13:11.023,0:13:15.027
WHO ARE BEGGING FOR THEIR LIVES AND SCREAMING IN PAIN,

0:13:15.027,0:13:26.738
AND CHOP THEM.

0:13:26.738,0:13:28.240
IT'S A VERY TOUGH QUESTION TO ANSWER

0:13:28.240,0:14:42.014
BECAUSE THEY HAVE THE SAME FLESH, LIKE YOURS.

0:14:42.014,0:14:46.018
ELIE'S WORD--CRUELTY-- COULD NOT BE MORE ACCURATE.

0:14:46.018,0:14:49.521
CRUELTY IS AT THE HEART OF GENOCIDE.

0:14:49.521,0:14:53.025
THE KILLERS DON'T JUST ERADICATE THE TARGETED PEOPLE,

0:14:53.025,0:14:56.028
BUT BRUTALIZE THEM IN WAYS THAT FAR EXCEED

0:14:56.028,0:15:00.966
WHAT IS NEEDED TO KILL THEM.

0:15:00.966,0:15:07.039
I SEE THE EVIDENCE OF SUCH CRUELTY EVERYWHERE I GO.

0:15:07.039,0:15:11.043
I CAME TO GUATEMALA, WHERE A MASSIVE EFFORT HAS BEEN UNDERWAY

0:15:11.043,0:15:15.547
TO LITERALLY UNCOVER THE TRUTH ABOUT THE GOVERNMENT'S MASS SLAUGHTER

0:15:15.547,0:15:24.356
OF 200,000 INDIGENOUS MAYA DURING THE 1980s.

0:15:24.356,0:15:28.860
OUTSIDE GUATEMALA, FEW PEOPLE EVEN KNOW ABOUT THE GENOCIDE.

0:15:28.860,0:15:39.705
Suasnavar: BUENOS DIAS.

0:15:39.705,0:16:27.152
Goldhagen: DO WE KNOW--IS THIS A FAMILY OR TWO FAMILIES? ARE THERE ADULTS?

0:16:27.152,0:16:28.654
Goldhagen: IN THESE HILLS,

0:16:28.654,0:16:32.157
THE GUATEMALAN MILITARY CONDUCTED A SCORCHED-EARTH CAMPAIGN

0:16:32.157,0:16:36.561
AGAINST MAYA AND LEFTIST INSURGENTS.

0:16:36.561,0:16:39.564
THE MAYAN PEOPLE, THEY SAID, WERE INHERENTLY SUBVERSIVE

0:16:39.564,0:16:47.606
AND AN IMPEDIMENT TO PROGRESS.

0:16:47.606,0:16:49.941
THE GOVERNMENT STRATEGY WAS SUMMED UP

0:16:49.941,0:16:52.944
IN A GRIM APHORISM OF THE TIME--

0:16:52.944,0:17:01.620
"TO KILL THE FISH, YOU HAVE TO DRAIN THE POND."

0:17:01.620,0:17:05.123
HERE, IN THE MOUNTAIN HAMLET OF PLAN DE SANCHEZ,

0:17:05.123,0:17:27.379
THEY DRAINED THE POND ON JULY 18, 1982.

0:17:27.379,0:17:31.249
Woman: THE MILITARY WOULD SEPARATE THE WOMEN AND THE MEN.

0:17:31.249,0:17:35.253
SOMETIMES THEY WOULD TAKE THE INFANTS OUT OF THE WOMEN'S ARMS

0:17:35.253,0:17:37.723
AND SIMPLY SMASH THEM ON THE GROUND,

0:17:37.723,0:17:39.958
KILL THEM RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF EVERYBODY.

0:17:39.958,0:17:41.960
THEY CUT TONGUES OUT.

0:17:41.960,0:17:43.962
THEY OPENED PREGNANT WOMEN'S BELLIES

0:17:43.962,0:17:46.465
AND DASHED FETUSES AGAINST TREES.

0:17:46.465,0:17:49.468
THEY BURNED PEOPLE ALIVE.

0:17:49.468,0:17:53.004
WE KNOW THIS BECAUSE THERE WERE PEOPLE

0:17:53.004,0:17:57.509
WHO, EVEN IN THE MIDST OF THIS MAYHEM AND MASS KILLING,

0:17:57.509,0:18:00.011
SOMEHOW MANAGED TO HIDE-- BEHIND A DOOR,

0:18:00.011,0:18:04.416
UNDERNEATH A PILE OF CORN HUSKS--

0:18:04.416,0:19:23.361
AND WATCH.

0:19:23.361,0:19:26.364
Goldhagen: ONLY ONCE I GOT TO GUATEMALA DID I REALIZE

0:19:26.364,0:19:29.367
HOW REMOTE THESE MOUNTAIN VILLAGES REALLY ARE.

0:19:29.367,0:19:32.504
GOVERNMENT LEADERS CALL THESE SUBSISTENCE FARMERS

0:19:32.504,0:19:35.407
A THREAT TO THE WELL-BEING OF THE COUNTRY,

0:19:35.407,0:19:39.411
BUT THEY DID NOT POSE A THREAT TO ANYONE.

0:19:39.411,0:20:53.285
THE GUATEMALAN PERPETRATORS OBLITERATED ONE SUCH COMMUNITY AFTER ANOTHER.

0:20:53.285,0:20:58.256
Goldhagen: EVERYWHERE I GO, THE FACES OF CHILDREN HAUNT ME THE MOST.

0:20:58.256,0:21:00.692
I HAVE CHILDREN, TOO,

0:21:00.692,0:21:03.862
AND IT'S HARD NOT TO THINK ABOUT THEM AS I HEAR STORIES

0:21:03.862,0:21:07.432
OVER AND OVER ABOUT THE CRUELTY CHILDREN SUFFERED.

0:21:07.432,0:21:11.436
...WHEN THEY KILLED ABOUT 177 PEOPLE,

0:21:11.436,0:21:13.939
MOST OF THEM CHILDREN AND THE OTHERS WOMEN.

0:21:13.939,0:21:17.442
SO THERE WASN'T A SINGLE ADULT MALE, SO WHICH CAN--

0:21:17.442,0:21:19.945
YOU KNOW, YOU CAN SAY LETS YOU UNDERSTAND

0:21:19.945,0:21:21.947
THAT THESE ARE NOT COMBAT DEATHS.

0:21:21.947,0:21:24.950
OH, NO. YEAH, YOU KNOW, IT'S VERY COMMON IN MASS MURDERS

0:21:24.950,0:21:24.950
FOR THE PERPETRATORS TO DO THIS TO CHILDREN...

0:21:24.950,0:21:27.452
YEAH.

0:21:27.452,0:21:29.454
AFTER RWANDA AND THE HOLOCAUST.

0:21:29.454,0:21:32.958
Goldhagen, voice-over: FREDY PECCERELLI, A GUATEMALAN NATIVE RAISED IN AMERICA,

0:21:32.958,0:21:35.961
IS IN CHARGE OF COLLECTING AND CATALOGUING THE BONES.

0:21:35.961,0:21:38.463
THEY PORTRAY A MESSAGE. WHEN THEY DO THIS,

0:21:38.463,0:21:41.466
THEY ARE ALSO KILLING THE SEED OF EVIL, ACCORDING TO THEM,

0:21:41.466,0:21:43.401
WHETHER IT BE IN NAZI GERMANY

0:21:43.401,0:21:45.904
OR WHETHER IT BE IN GUATEMALA IN THE 1980s.

0:21:45.904,0:21:49.908
BUT THIS IS THE BONE LAB OF THE FORENSIC ANTHROPOLOGY LABORATORY.

0:21:49.908,0:21:52.811
FREDY IS AMASSING A RECORD OF THE ATROCITIES

0:21:52.811,0:21:54.879
COMMITTED BY THE GUATEMALAN PERPETRATORS...

0:21:54.879,0:21:56.514
BUT THE FIRST STAGE AFTER THE...

0:21:56.514,0:22:00.018
AND PROVIDING THE VICTIMS' FAMILIES WITH THE REMAINS TO BURY PROPERLY.

0:22:00.018,0:22:02.954
Peccerelli: THE BONES HOLD THE STORY

0:22:02.954,0:22:05.924
OF WHAT HAPPENED TO A PERSON DURING THEIR LIFE

0:22:05.924,0:22:08.927
AND MIGHT EVEN TELL US WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM

0:22:08.927,0:22:10.929
DURING THE EVENT OF THEIR DEATH

0:22:10.929,0:22:12.731
AND EVEN WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM AFTER DEATH.

0:22:12.731,0:22:16.735
SO HERE, FOR EXAMPLE, WE CAN SEE...HOW...

0:22:16.735,0:22:20.739
AND IF YOU WANT, I'LL ALLOW YOU TO FEEL THE DIFFERENCE SO YOU CAN SEE.

0:22:20.739,0:22:23.241
THIS IS A VERY SHARP CUT, AND IF YOU RUN YOUR HAND THROUGH IT,

0:22:23.241,0:22:23.241
IT'S VERY, VERY SMOOTH.

0:22:23.241,0:22:25.744
MM-HMM.

0:22:25.744,0:22:28.913
YOU SEE, THAT WAS CAUSED BY A MACHETE STRIKING

0:22:28.913,0:22:32.884
THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE HEAD AND ALSO CUTTING THE ATLAS.

0:22:32.884,0:22:35.420
AND, YOU SEE, WHEN YOU MATCH IT UP ANATOMICALLY,

0:22:35.420,0:22:35.420
YOU CAN SEE THAT THIS TRAUMA HERE...

0:22:35.420,0:22:38.123
RIGHT.

0:22:38.123,0:22:40.125
IS RELATED TO THIS STRIKE HERE,

0:22:40.125,0:22:42.861
AND BASICALLY WHAT THEY TRIED TO DO HERE IS DECAPITATE THE PERSON.

0:22:42.861,0:22:45.363
NOW, WHAT WE'VE SEEN USUALLY IS THAT

0:22:45.363,0:22:48.366
THESE PEOPLE WERE NOT VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE OF ANATOMY,

0:22:48.366,0:22:51.036
SO THE DECAPITATIONS, AS YOU'D EXPECT,

0:22:51.036,0:22:54.372
WERE NOT ALWAYS SUCCESSFUL, SO YOU HAVE REPEATED BLOWS TO THE HEAD.

0:22:54.372,0:22:56.941
SOMEBODY'S TRYING TO SEPARATE THE HEAD FROM THE BODY.

0:22:56.941,0:23:00.879
THEY'RE VERY TYPICAL OF OVERKILL AND SOMETIMES OF EVEN CRIMES OF PASSION.

0:23:00.879,0:23:02.881
Goldhagen: "OVERKILL"-- THERE'S A WORD

0:23:02.881,0:23:05.950
I DON'T THINK I'LL EVER HEAR THE SAME WAY AGAIN.

0:23:05.950,0:23:08.453
IF THE KILLERS WERE SIMPLY DOING THEIR DUTY

0:23:08.453,0:23:10.955
TO WIPE OUT AN INSURGENCY, AS THEY CLAIM,

0:23:10.955,0:23:14.459
THEY WOULD EXECUTE THEIR VICTIMS QUICKLY AND BE DONE WITH IT.

0:23:14.459,0:23:19.464
YOU HAVE TO WONDER WHY WE SEE SO MUCH EVIDENCE OF SUCH MURDEROUS PASSION,

0:23:19.464,0:23:21.966
ESPECIALLY AGAINST WOMEN AND CHILDREN.

0:23:21.966,0:23:24.469
THIS IS A CHILD HERE, A VERY YOUNG CHILD.

0:23:24.469,0:23:26.471
I WOULDN'T EVEN DARE TO TELL YOU THE AGE

0:23:26.471,0:23:28.973
UNLESS WITH THE ANTHROPOLOGIST WORKING ON THE CASE,

0:23:28.973,0:23:31.976
AND YOU CAN COMPARE-- THIS IS THE FIRST RIB.

0:23:31.976,0:23:34.979
WOW.

0:23:34.979,0:23:37.982
SO...AND IF YOU COMPARE THIS

0:23:37.982,0:23:39.984
TO THAT ONE, YOU CAN SEE THE DIFFERENCE.

0:23:39.984,0:23:42.487
I MEAN, THE FIRST RIB IS ABOUT THAT BIG, SO THIS IS A VERY, VERY SMALL--

0:23:42.487,0:23:43.988
MAY I SEE THIS?

0:23:43.988,0:23:46.491
JUST HOLDING THE TINY LITTLE BONE.

0:23:46.491,0:23:50.128
YOU KNOW...

0:23:50.128,0:23:52.130
YEAH. SEE, I DON'T KNOW.

0:23:52.130,0:23:54.632
I DON'T THINK THERE'S A--A WAY OF...

0:23:54.632,0:23:56.634
HUMANLY UNDERSTANDING THIS

0:23:56.634,0:24:00.071
BECAUSE IT GOES BEYOND WHAT I BELIEVE HUMANS CAN DO,

0:24:00.071,0:24:02.574
BUT OBVIOUSLY--I MEAN, THE MORE I SAY THAT, THE MORE I TEND TO--

0:24:02.574,0:24:04.576
IT'S HARD FOR ME TO BELIEVE

0:24:04.576,0:24:06.578
THAT YOU'RE SAYING THIS, GIVEN WHAT YOU--

0:24:06.578,0:24:10.081
BECAUSE I WANT TO BELIEVE THAT WE'RE NOT CAPABLE OF THESE THINGS,

0:24:10.081,0:24:12.584
EVEN THOUGH-- I WANT TO BELIEVE THAT THIS IS WRONG.

0:24:12.584,0:24:14.586
SO DOING THIS HAS TO BE WRONG.

0:24:14.586,0:24:17.088
IF I ACCEPTED THIS AS RIGHT AND IF I EXCUSE IT,

0:24:17.088,0:24:23.027
THEN I CAN'T DO THIS ANYMORE.

0:24:23.027,0:24:26.898
FREDY IS NOT ALONE.

0:24:26.898,0:24:29.534
MOST OF US FIND IT HARD TO COME TO TERMS

0:24:29.534,0:24:33.538
WITH THE CAPACITY OF HUMAN BEINGS TO DO SUCH HORRIBLE THINGS TO OTHERS.

0:24:33.538,0:24:36.040
BUT WE HAVE TO MAKE SENSE OF IT.

0:24:36.040,0:24:42.347
AS IRRATIONAL AS THEY SEEM, THESE ARE NOT THE ACTS OF CRAZED INDIVIDUALS.

0:24:42.347,0:24:45.350
THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING,

0:24:45.350,0:24:49.354
BELIEVE IT'S RIGHT, AND MAKE A CONSCIOUS CHOICE TO ACT.

0:24:49.354,0:24:51.356
UH, HELLO.

0:24:51.356,0:24:51.356
JA.

0:24:51.356,0:24:53.458
ICH BIN DANIEL GOLDHAGEN.

0:24:53.458,0:25:49.047
[SPEAKING GERMAN]

0:25:49.047,0:25:54.052
Goldhagen: LIKE MOST GERMANS, OTTO-ERNST DUSCHELEIT GREW UP WITH THE WORLD VIEW

0:25:54.052,0:25:57.889
IN WHICH HE SAW HIMSELF AS A MEMBER OF THE MASTER RACE,

0:25:57.889,0:26:02.327
WHILE MANY OTHERS FELL INTO THE CATEGORY OF SUB-HUMANS OR UNTERMENSCHEN.

0:26:02.327,0:26:09.534
[MEN SINGING IN GERMAN]

0:26:09.534,0:26:11.536
Goldhagen: WHEN YOU WERE IN SCHOOL...

0:26:11.536,0:26:11.536
YES?

0:26:11.536,0:26:13.438
WHEN YOU WERE IN THE HITLER YOUTH,

0:26:13.438,0:26:15.940
WHAT DID YOU LEARN, FOR EXAMPLE, ABOUT UNTERMENSCHEN?

0:26:15.940,0:26:15.940
WHAT DID THAT WORD MEAN TO YOU?

0:26:15.940,0:27:36.220
JA, UNTERMENSCHEN.

0:27:36.220,0:27:39.724
Goldhagen: IT'S STRIKING THAT IT IS A FORMER SS MAN,

0:27:39.724,0:27:42.727
INVOKING ANNE FRANK, WHO MAKES THIS POINT.

0:27:42.727,0:27:45.229
IT IS AN IMPORTANT ONE.

0:27:45.229,0:27:47.732
IT IS THAT FAILURE TO SEE THE HUMANITY IN OTHERS

0:27:47.732,0:27:53.004
WHICH MAKES IT POSSIBLE FOR THE KILLERS TO COMMIT THEIR CRIMES.

0:27:53.004,0:27:55.073
I WOULD ADD THAT IT'S THE BELIEF

0:27:55.073,0:27:57.575
THAT THOSE OTHERS ARE DANGEROUS ENEMIES

0:27:57.575,0:28:10.021
WHICH INSPIRES THE PERPETRATORS TO KILL WITH SUCH ZEAL.

0:28:10.021,0:28:13.024
YEARS AGO, I ENCOUNTERED AN EPISODE OF THE HOLOCAUST

0:28:13.024,0:28:17.028
WHICH SPOKE VOLUMES ABOUT THE WILLFULNESS AND DEDICATION OF THE KILLERS,

0:28:17.028,0:28:22.033
AND I GOT TO KNOW ONE OF THE SURVIVORS, LILLI SILBIGER.

0:28:22.033,0:28:26.537
I HAVE A MAP HERE WITH ME WHICH ACTUALLY OUTLINES THE ROUTE

0:28:26.537,0:28:30.041
FROM HELMBRECHT TO VOLARY...

0:28:30.041,0:28:33.044
Goldhagen, voice-over: IN THE LAST MONTHS OF WORLD WAR II,

0:28:33.044,0:28:37.548
AS THE ALLIED FORCES NEARED THE CONCENTRATION CAMPS HOUSING JEWS AND OTHERS,

0:28:37.548,0:28:40.518
GERMANS EMPTIED THEIR CAMPS AND DROVE THEIR PRISONERS

0:28:40.518,0:28:44.522
ON FORCED MARCHES THROUGH THE NEARBY TOWNS AND COUNTRYSIDE.

0:28:44.522,0:28:46.023
[SILBIGER SPEAKING GERMAN]

0:28:46.023,0:28:50.027
Goldhagen: THE DEATH MARCHES LEFT A TRAIL OF CORPSES IN THEIR WAKE,

0:28:50.027,0:28:53.531
AND THE MARCHING PRISONERS WERE DESCRIBED BY MORE THAN ONE WITNESS

0:28:53.531,0:28:56.100
AS "THE WALKING DEAD."

0:28:56.100,0:28:59.103
THESE ARE ACTUAL PHOTOS OF THE YOUNG WOMEN

0:28:59.103,0:29:13.751
WHO WERE WITH LILLI ON THE MARCH.

0:29:13.751,0:29:17.755
ON THE SUMMER DAY LILY REVISITED THE ROUTE OF A DEATH MARCH WITH ME,

0:29:17.755,0:29:20.758
THE COUNTRYSIDE WAS BEAUTIFUL.

0:29:20.758,0:29:28.766
BUT IN THE SPRING OF 1945, IT WAS COLD AND BLEAK.

0:29:28.766,0:29:33.771
LILY'S GUARDS ACTUALLY HAD RECEIVED EXPLICIT ORDERS NOT TO KILL ANY MORE JEWS,

0:29:33.771,0:29:37.275
BUT THEY WILLFULLY DEFIED THEIR SUPERIORS.

0:29:37.275,0:29:40.778
THEY DROVE HER AND THE OTHERS, STARVING, WEARING NOTHING MORE THAN RAGS,

0:29:40.778,0:29:44.148
DAY AFTER DAY THROUGH THE FRIGID COUNTRYSIDE.

0:29:44.148,0:29:47.852
SOMETIMES WE WOULDN'T EVEN GET FOOD FOR 24 HOURS, FOR 48 HOURS.

0:29:47.852,0:29:50.855
PEOPLE RESORTED TO ANYTHING THAT WAS FOUND

0:29:50.855,0:29:54.358
OR ANYTHING ROTTEN THAT WAS--YOU KNOW, YOU JUST GRABBED AT ANYTHING.

0:29:54.358,0:29:54.358
AND YOU WERE 16 AT THE TIME?

0:29:54.358,0:29:57.361
YEAH.

0:29:57.361,0:30:01.966
AND IN ONE PLACE, SOMEONE BROKE INTO A PANTRY

0:30:01.966,0:30:05.970
OR SOMEPLACE WHERE WE ARRIVED AND STOLE SOME LOAFS OF BREAD.

0:30:05.970,0:30:09.974
AND FOR THAT, THEY SELECTED 50 GIRLS AND KILLED THEM

0:30:09.974,0:30:12.477
OVER THE MASS GRAVE THERE.

0:30:12.477,0:30:16.981
WE HAD TO COME BACK AND COVER THEM,

0:30:16.981,0:30:20.985
AND THERE WERE MANY OF THEM STILL ALIVE WHEN WE HAD TO DO THAT.

0:30:20.985,0:30:23.988
SO THEY--YOU HAD TO HELP BURY THEM ALIVE?

0:30:23.988,0:30:26.491
WE HAD TO DO-- WE HAD TO PUT--

0:30:26.491,0:30:29.494
YES, THE EARTH, COVER THEM WITH EARTH.

0:30:29.494,0:30:34.499
SO THIS WAS THE BIGGEST HORRIBLE...

0:30:34.499,0:30:38.503
[VOICE CRACKS] YEAH....

0:30:38.503,0:30:41.506
PERIOD.

0:30:41.506,0:30:47.411
[DISTANT ROLLING THUNDER]

0:30:47.411,0:30:52.416
ONE OF THE ASTONISHING THINGS IS THAT THEY WERE MARCHING THE JEWISH PRISONERS

0:30:52.416,0:30:55.386
LITERALLY THE LAST DAY OF THE WAR.

0:30:55.386,0:30:58.389
INSTEAD OF RUNNING AWAY TO AVOID CAPTURE, THEY STAYED WITH THE PRISONERS,

0:30:58.389,0:30:58.389
THEY CONTINUED TO DENY THEM FOOD...

0:30:58.389,0:31:00.825
ABSOLUTELY.

0:31:00.825,0:31:03.761
THEY CONTINUED TO BEAT THEM, THEY CONTINUED TO KILL THEM,

0:31:03.761,0:31:10.368
THEY CONTINUED TO DO IT TO THE VERY END.

0:31:10.368,0:31:12.503
WE KNEW THE RUSSIANS WERE CLOSING IN THERE,

0:31:12.503,0:31:14.505
AND THEN WE HEARD ARTILLERY,

0:31:14.505,0:31:17.341
SOME PLANES FLYING OVERHEAD,

0:31:17.341,0:31:19.343
HEARD SOME BOMBINGS IN THE DISTANCE,

0:31:19.343,0:31:23.047
SO WE KNEW THEY WERE VERY CLOSE.

0:31:23.047,0:31:28.553
[EXPLOSIONS, GUNFIRE]

0:31:28.553,0:31:33.057
THEY MANAGED FOR SUCH A LONG TIME TO KEEP AHEAD OF THE ALLIES,

0:31:33.057,0:31:36.227
GOING NOWHERE, YOU KNOW, TO--A PLACE--TO NOWHERE.

0:31:36.227,0:31:39.230
JUST TO DRAG US, JUST TO...

0:31:39.230,0:31:42.233
JUST GO IN CIRCLES, ACTUALLY. THAT'S WHAT WAS HAPPENING.

0:31:42.233,0:31:45.736
THEY DIDN'T KNOW THEMSELVES WHAT THEY WERE DOING.

0:31:45.736,0:31:49.740
THEY COULD HAVE EASILY LEFT US WHEREVER WE WERE

0:31:49.740,0:31:52.109
AND JUST DISAPPEAR, AND THEY DIDN'T.

0:31:52.109,0:31:56.113
THEY BELIEVED THE JEWS WERE EVIL INCARNATE, AN ENEMY OF HUMANKIND,

0:31:56.113,0:32:00.551
A THREAT TO THE WELL-BEING AND FUTURE EXISTENCE OF GERMANY.

0:32:00.551,0:32:02.553
AND IF YOU BELIEVE THAT,

0:32:02.553,0:32:05.623
JUST AS IF YOU BELIEVE SOMEONE'S ABOUT TO ATTACK YOUR CHILD,

0:32:05.623,0:32:09.126
YOU WILL DO ANYTHING YOU CAN.

0:32:09.126,0:32:11.262
YEAH.

0:32:11.262,0:32:13.264
[CAR HORN HONKS]

0:32:13.264,0:32:18.269
EACH OF US TRIES TO MAKE SENSE OF THE HORRORS IN HIS OR HER OWN WAY.

0:32:18.269,0:32:22.807
OVER THE YEARS, I HAVE TALKED WITH MANY WHO GRAPPLE OVER THESE ISSUES,

0:32:22.807,0:32:26.310
BUT NEVER ONE MORE THOUGHTFUL THAN A MAN I MET IN RWANDA--

0:32:26.310,0:32:30.314
THARCISSE KARUGARAMA, THE COUNTRY'S MINISTER OF JUSTICE.

0:32:30.314,0:32:32.817
Goldhagen: HERE WE'RE SPEAKING NOW AS TWO PEOPLE TRYING

0:32:32.817,0:32:35.319
TO UNDERSTAND A VERY DIFFICULT SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES:

0:32:35.319,0:32:37.922
THE WAYS IN WHICH VICTIMS WERE NOT JUST KILLED

0:32:37.922,0:32:41.425
IN, IF WE CAN CALL IT, THE LEAST PAINFUL WAY,

0:32:41.425,0:32:44.929
BUT WERE HACKED TO DEATH, WERE TORTURED;

0:32:44.929,0:32:48.799
THE ZEAL AND PASSION WITH WHICH THE PERPETRATORS SOUGHT OUT THE VICTIMS.

0:32:48.799,0:32:51.535
IT'S NOT EASY TO FIND PEOPLE HIDING IN THE COUNTRYSIDE.

0:32:51.535,0:32:54.538
MASS HYSTERIA...

0:32:54.538,0:33:00.978
IS VERY DIFFICULT TO EXPLAIN.

0:33:00.978,0:33:05.049
PEOPLE HIT A PERIOD WHEN THEY'RE INVOLVED IN MASS HYSTERIA,

0:33:05.049,0:33:08.519
WHEN THEY CAN NO LONGER BE ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS.

0:33:08.519,0:33:11.188
BUT YOU CERTAINLY DON'T WANT TO TAKE THAT AS A LEGAL POSITION, DO YOU?

0:33:11.188,0:33:14.191
NO, DEFINITELY NOT. DEFINITELY NOT.

0:33:14.191,0:33:17.695
I'M JUST TRYING TO EXPLAIN BECAUSE I'VE BEEN AROUND

0:33:17.695,0:33:20.698
IN THIS JUDICIAL FOR SOME TIME NOW,

0:33:20.698,0:33:26.037
AND I'VE MADE ALL SORTS OF CONTRADICTIONS.

0:33:26.037,0:33:29.040
SO THE ONE YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT IS A MAJOR CONTRADICTION.

0:33:29.040,0:33:36.047
THE BRUTALITY WITH WHICH THEY DID THE KILLING IS SHOCKING.

0:33:36.047,0:33:40.051
WHAT...ONCE PEOPLE HAD STEPPED BEYOND

0:33:40.051,0:33:44.055
THE FIRST STEP OF ACTUALLY KILLING--

0:33:44.055,0:33:47.058
THROWING A CHILD DOWN AND HACKING THEM TO DEATH,

0:33:47.058,0:33:50.061
OPENING THE WOMB OF PREGNANT--

0:33:50.061,0:33:52.563
THERE'S NOTHING THAT WAS IF--THAT HE COULDN'T DO

0:33:52.563,0:33:56.567
BECAUSE THEY WERE BEING TOLD BY THE PETITIONS

0:33:56.567,0:33:59.070
WHO WERE GIVING THEM THE ALCOHOL

0:33:59.070,0:34:02.506
THAT "IF YOU DON'T DESTROY THESE PEOPLE, THESE ANIMALS, THESE--

0:34:02.506,0:34:07.078
THEY'RE COMING TO FINISH YOU. NONE OF YOU WILL SURVIVE."

0:34:07.078,0:34:10.581
AND THEY HAD BEEN MADE TO BELIEVE IT.

0:34:10.581,0:34:13.584
I DON'T WANT TO BE A--TO GIVE AN EXCUSE FOR THEM.

0:34:13.584,0:34:17.088
THEY ARE WILLING KILLERS. THERE'S NO DOUBT IN MY MIND.

0:34:17.088,0:34:20.591
BUT, SEE, AT THE BACK OF THEIR MIND, THE RADIO IS TELLING THEM,

0:34:20.591,0:34:22.093
"THEY'RE COMING TO FINISH YOU.

0:34:22.093,0:34:25.596
"IF YOU DON'T KILL THEM YOURSELVES, THEIR PLAN...

0:34:25.596,0:34:34.739
IS TO FINISH YOU."

0:34:34.739,0:34:37.742
Goldhagen: IN MASSACHUSETTS, I LIVE JUST A FEW MILES

0:34:37.742,0:34:40.745
FROM A LARGE COMMUNITY OF CAMBODIAN AMERICANS.

0:34:40.745,0:34:44.248
MANY OF THEM ARE SURVIVORS OF THE GENOCIDE THAT TOOK THE LIVES

0:34:44.248,0:34:49.253
OF 20% OF CAMBODIA'S POPULATION DURING THE 1970s--

0:34:49.253,0:34:51.622
ONE IN 5 CAMBODIANS.

0:34:51.622,0:34:53.624
[MEN SINGING IN NATIVE LANGUAGE]

0:34:53.624,0:35:03.067
Goldhagen: IT IS A CHILLING STATISTIC.

0:35:03.067,0:35:05.569
IN THE SPRING OF 1975,

0:35:05.569,0:35:10.074
A COMMUNIST REBEL GROUP, THE KHMER ROUGE, CONQUERED THE COUNTRY.

0:35:10.074,0:35:14.078
THEY WANTED TO TURN CAMBODIA INTO A MARXIST AGRARIAN UTOPIA,

0:35:14.078,0:35:19.083
WHICH, TO THEM, MEANT DESTROYING VIRTUALLY ALL VESTIGES OF MODERN CIVILIZATION.

0:35:19.083,0:35:21.585
Man: FIRST DAY WHEN THEY MARCH INTO THE CITY,

0:35:21.585,0:35:24.588
AND WE'RE SO HAPPY THAT THE WAR IS ENDED.

0:35:24.588,0:35:28.592
WE WERE JOYFUL AND WE SAW THE SOLDIER CAME, THE PEACE COME,

0:35:28.592,0:35:31.595
AND NO MORE FIGHTING, NO MORE WAR,

0:35:31.595,0:35:35.766
AND THEN SUDDENLY EVERYTHING JUST DISAPPEARED.

0:35:35.766,0:35:41.071
I SAW A LOT OF SOLDIERS IN BLACK UNIFORMS CLOSE TO MY HOME.

0:35:41.071,0:35:43.574
[WHISTLE BLOWS]

0:35:43.574,0:35:46.744
THESE SOLDIERS SPRAYED EVERYWHERE, SHOOTING GUNS IN THE AIR

0:35:46.744,0:35:49.680
AND ASK, "LET'S GO, LET'S GO."

0:35:49.680,0:35:55.119
[DISTANT MACHINE GUNFIRE]

0:35:55.119,0:36:00.057
Goldhagen: WITHIN 3 DAYS, KHMER ROUGE CADRES EMPTIED CAMBODIA'S CITIES,

0:36:00.057,0:36:04.562
FORCING MILLIONS INTO THE RURAL CAMPS THEY CALLED COOPERATIVES,

0:36:04.562,0:36:11.135
BUT WHICH CAME TO BE KNOWN TO THE OUTSIDE WORLD AS THE KILLING FIELDS.

0:36:11.135,0:36:14.138
Uong: THINK OVER TWO MILE PER DAY, 3 MILE PER DAY

0:36:14.138,0:36:17.141
THAT WE COULDN'T MOVE BECAUSE OF SO MANY PEOPLE.

0:36:17.141,0:36:20.144
AND ALONG THE ROAD ARE BODIES ALONG THE ROAD EVERYWHERE.

0:36:20.144,0:36:26.250
THEY JUST-- THE SCENE IS JUST AWFUL.

0:36:26.250,0:36:30.254
Goldhagen: THE EXTENT OF THEIR VIOLENT TRANSFORMATION OF CAMBODIAN SOCIETY

0:36:30.254,0:36:34.758
STILL BOGGLES THE MIND.

0:36:34.758,0:36:39.763
AND IT WAS ALL BEGUN BY ONE MAN, KNOWN AS POL POT,

0:36:39.763,0:36:44.268
SUPPORTED BY A SMALL INNER CIRCLE.

0:36:44.268,0:36:47.771
GENOCIDE IS ALWAYS THE DECISION OF ONE LEADER

0:36:47.771,0:36:50.274
OR A SMALL GROUP OF LEADERS.

0:36:50.274,0:36:53.777
THESE INDIVIDUALS MAKE A CHOICE TO INITIATE THE KILLING,

0:36:53.777,0:36:58.282
WHICH, IN EVERY CASE, MEANS THEY COULD HAVE ALSO CHOSEN NOT TO.

0:36:58.282,0:37:04.154
THE LEADERS' GOALS VARY, DEPENDING ON THE TIME, PLACE, AND CIRCUMSTANCES:

0:37:04.154,0:37:09.894
POL POT WANTED TO RADICALLY TRANSFORM CAMBODIAN SOCIETY;

0:37:09.894,0:37:15.633
THE TURKISH LEADER MEHMED TALAAT WANTED TO SECURE TURKEY'S DECAYING EMPIRE;

0:37:15.633,0:37:20.137
ADOLF HITLER WANTED TO CREATE A VAST POLITICAL EMPIRE

0:37:20.137,0:37:23.040
RULED BY THE GERMAN MASTER RACE;

0:37:23.040,0:37:26.543
COLONEL THEONISTE BAGOSORA AND HIS FELLOW HUTU LEADERS

0:37:26.543,0:37:31.115
WANTED TO SECURE POLITICAL POWER IN RWANDA FOR THE HUTU;

0:37:31.115,0:37:33.117
AND IN THE BALKANS,

0:37:33.117,0:37:38.489
SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC WANTED TO PERMANENTLY REDRAW THE POLITICAL MAP OF THE REGION.

0:37:38.489,0:37:41.091
GENOCIDE IS ALWAYS POLITICS.

0:37:41.091,0:37:43.627
OF COURSE, THERE ARE POLITICAL GOALS.

0:37:43.627,0:37:46.630
THOSE POLITICAL GOALS CAN BE REACHED IN DIFFERENT WAYS.

0:37:46.630,0:37:51.568
SOME PEOPLE THINK THAT EXTERMINATING A GROUP WILL HELP THEIR GOALS,

0:37:51.568,0:37:53.604
SO THAT'S WHY THEY DO IT.

0:37:53.604,0:37:56.907
SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC THOUGHT AT THAT TIME,

0:37:56.907,0:38:01.345
THAT HE COULD, BECAUSE OF THE OVERWHELMING MILITARY POWER,

0:38:01.345,0:38:18.829
MAKE SOME TERRITORIAL GAINS IN CROATIA AND BOSNIA, SO HE ATTACKED.

0:38:18.829,0:38:21.832
[MEN SPEAKING INDISTINCTLY]

0:38:21.832,0:38:24.368
Silajdzic: THE FULFILLING OF THEIR MISSION...

0:38:24.368,0:38:26.370
[EXPLOSION]

0:38:26.370,0:38:30.374
WAS...TO MAKE A GREATER SERBIA.

0:38:30.374,0:38:32.876
IN ORDER TO MAKE GREATER SERBIA,

0:38:32.876,0:38:37.614
YOU HAD TO EXTERMINATE PEOPLE IN YOUR WAY.

0:38:37.614,0:38:40.117
Man: SERBIA'S RIGHT THERE ACROSS THE DRINA RIVER,

0:38:40.117,0:38:45.122
AND LOTS OF SERB-CONTROLLED TERRITORY IN THE CENTRAL PART OF THE COUNTRY,

0:38:45.122,0:38:48.359
THEY WANTED TO LINK THOSE TWO ZONES, RIGHT?

0:38:48.359,0:38:52.863
BUT IF YOU HAD LARGE-- A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF MUSLIMS

0:38:52.863,0:38:56.867
ALONG THE WESTERN BANKS OF THAT RIVER,

0:38:56.867,0:39:01.305
YOU HAD A KIND OF BARRIER BETWEEN THOSE TWO SERBIAN AREAS,

0:39:01.305,0:39:03.307
SO THESE PEOPLE HAD TO BE ELIMINATED.

0:39:03.307,0:39:05.876
Silajdzic: THESE THINGS ARE DONE IN COLD BLOOD.

0:39:05.876,0:39:08.879
THIS IS A DESIGN. THIS IS A PLAN.

0:39:08.879,0:39:10.881
THIS IS A CALCULATION, OF COURSE.

0:39:10.881,0:39:13.717
THIS IS NOT A REACTION TO SOMETHING.

0:39:13.717,0:39:18.722
THIS IS--THIS, UNFORTUNATELY, HERE IS A PLANNED GENOCIDE,

0:39:18.722,0:39:21.225
AS IS ANY OTHER GENOCIDE

0:39:21.225,0:39:24.728
BECAUSE IT'S NOT POSSIBLE TO KILL A BIG NUMBER OF PEOPLE

0:39:24.728,0:39:27.731
WITHOUT PRIOR PREPARATION:

0:39:27.731,0:39:29.733
MENTAL PREPARATION,

0:39:29.733,0:39:32.236
INTELLECTUAL PREPARATION,

0:39:32.236,0:39:34.738
MILITARY PREPARATION.

0:39:34.738,0:39:37.741
Goldhagen: PRESIDENT SILAJDZIC IS RIGHT.

0:39:37.741,0:39:41.745
THERE'S A MISCONCEPTION THAT GENOCIDES ERUPT SPONTANEOUSLY

0:39:41.745,0:39:44.782
OUT OF DEEP-SEATED PASSIONS OR ETHNIC CONFLICTS.

0:39:44.782,0:39:51.088
BUT THERE IS NOTHING SPONTANEOUS ABOUT GENOCIDE.

0:39:51.088,0:39:53.590
IN THIS VILLA IN THE SUBURBS OF BERLIN,

0:39:53.590,0:39:56.593
THE NAZI LEADERSHIP DISCUSSED THEIR DETAILED PLANS

0:39:56.593,0:40:01.098
TO EXTERMINATE THE JEWS OF EUROPE.

0:40:01.098,0:40:04.101
THESE TYPEWRITTEN MINUTES DOCUMENT THE MEETING

0:40:04.101,0:40:09.606
AND LIST COUNTRY BY COUNTRY THE 11 MILLION JEWS THEY PLAN TO KILL.

0:40:09.606,0:40:12.609
ONE OF THOSE WAS ERICH GOLDHAGEN,

0:40:12.609,0:40:16.613
THE 10-YEAR-OLD BOY IN WHAT WAS THEN ROMANIA, NOW UKRAINE,

0:40:16.613,0:40:19.216
WHO WOULD GROW UP TO BECOME MY FATHER.

0:40:19.216,0:40:22.219
THE NAZI VICTORY WOULD HAVE BEEN TANTAMOUNT, EVEN WORSE,

0:40:22.219,0:40:24.721
THAN--IT WOULD BE LIKE A NUCLEAR WAR, ALMOST.

0:40:24.721,0:40:24.721
THE DESTRUCTION WOULD BE...

0:40:24.721,0:40:26.723
MM-HMM.

0:40:26.723,0:40:31.228
IT IS PERHAPS EASIER TO RECOVER FROM A NUCLEAR ASSAULT

0:40:31.228,0:40:34.798
THAN IT WOULD BE FROM A NAZI VICTORY.

0:40:34.798,0:40:38.302
Goldhagen: I'VE ASKED HIM TO JOIN ME ON PART OF MY JOURNEY

0:40:38.302,0:40:41.305
TO RETURN TO WHERE HE LIVED DURING THE HOLOCAUST.

0:40:41.305,0:40:41.305
SO HAVE YOU TALKED TO MOM ABOUT OUR TRIP TO CZERNOWITZ?

0:40:41.305,0:40:44.308
YES.

0:40:44.308,0:40:47.311
SHE IS VERY ENTHUSIASTIC ABOUT IT. SHE ENCOURAGES ME TO GO.

0:40:47.311,0:40:50.814
YOU KNOW, MOM IS ALWAYS SOMEONE IN BELIEVING--

0:40:50.814,0:40:55.819
SHE BELIEVES THAT THE PAST HAS TO BE PRESERVED AND REMEMBERED,

0:40:55.819,0:41:02.759
AND SHE HAS HELPED ME OVERCOME MY NATURAL RELUCTANCE TO GO.

0:41:02.759,0:41:05.262
YOU KNOW, WHEN I TOLD HER THAT SHE HAD TO WORK ON YOU,

0:41:05.262,0:41:08.265
SHE SAID SHE NEVER WORKS ON YOU. HA HA!

0:41:08.265,0:41:10.767
BUT I KNEW I HAD AN ALLY.

0:41:10.767,0:41:14.037
IN A VERY SUBTLE WAY, YOU KNOW, SHE WORKS ON ME.

0:41:14.037,0:41:16.540
ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS TO ENVISION

0:41:16.540,0:41:20.043
WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF HITLER HAD WON THE WAR.

0:41:20.043,0:41:23.547
THERE WOULD BE MASS GRAVES EVERYWHERE, VAST CONCENTRATION CAMPS,

0:41:23.547,0:41:27.551
AND WHAT I CALL IN GREEK A NECROPOLIS, A CITY OF DEATH.

0:41:27.551,0:41:31.054
AND EVEN GERMANY ITSELF WOULD HAVE BEEN TRANSFORMED,

0:41:31.054,0:41:33.557
BUT MOST GERMANS UNDERSTAND THIS,

0:41:33.557,0:41:35.559
THAT HITLER WOULD HAVE DONE TO GERMANY THINGS

0:41:35.559,0:41:38.061
WHICH EVEN THE WORST ENEMY OF GERMANY WOULDN'T HAVE DONE.

0:41:38.061,0:41:42.065
HE WOULD HAVE DESTROYED THE CHRISTIAN CHURCHES, DESTROYED THE CHURCHES,

0:41:42.065,0:41:46.036
KILLED THE INSANE, AND ABOVE ALL, AND THIS IS THE IMPORTANT POINT,

0:41:46.036,0:42:08.825
HE WOULD HAVE CONVERTED THE YOUNGER GENERATION INTO A RACE OF BARBARIANS.

0:42:08.825,0:42:12.329
Goldhagen: THERE IS A WIDELY HELD MISCONCEPTION

0:42:12.329,0:42:15.065
THAT THE GERMANS' EFFICIENCY AND TECHNOLOGY--

0:42:15.065,0:42:17.067
THE TRAINS AND THE GAS CHAMBERS--

0:42:17.067,0:42:21.505
MADE IT POSSIBLE FOR THEM TO KILL SO MANY SO QUICKLY.

0:42:21.505,0:42:24.508
AS WE'VE SEEN IN RWANDA AND ELSEWHERE,

0:42:24.508,0:42:28.679
LEADERS DO NOT NEED SOPHISTICATED TECHNOLOGY TO KILL ON A VAST SCALE.

0:42:28.679,0:42:30.914
[MEN SHOUTING IN NATIVE LANGUAGE]

0:42:30.914,0:42:34.084
IT IS THE WILL, AND NOT THE WAY,

0:42:34.084,0:42:36.186
THAT IS CRITICAL.

0:42:36.186,0:42:37.688
[MEN SINGING]

0:42:37.688,0:42:42.192
IN RWANDA, THE HUTU LEADERS DID WHAT ALL GENOCIDAL LEADERS DO.

0:42:42.192,0:42:47.197
THEY TAPPED INTO THE PREJUDICES AND BELIEFS THAT PEOPLE ALREADY HELD.

0:42:47.197,0:42:50.033
GENERATIONS OF HUTU HAD GROWN UP BEING TAUGHT

0:42:50.033,0:43:18.228
THAT THE TUTSI ARE DANGEROUS AND INHUMAN.

0:43:18.228,0:43:20.230
[RADIO STATIC]

0:43:20.230,0:43:43.253
[MAN SPEAKING NATIVE LANGUAGE]

0:43:43.253,0:43:49.993
[MEN SINGING IN NATIVE LANGUAGE]

0:43:49.993,0:44:48.385
Goldhagen: IT WAS EASY TO MOBILIZE HUTU FOR THE KILLING.

0:44:48.385,0:44:55.425
[MAN SHOUTS IN BOSNIAN]

0:44:55.425,0:45:00.364
Silajdzic: IN BOSNIA, THERE WAS DELIBERATELY A PARANOID CULTURE

0:45:00.364,0:45:03.867
CREATED PRIOR TO THE WAR,

0:45:03.867,0:45:06.436
ABOUT 5 OR 6, 7 YEARS.

0:45:06.436,0:45:12.442
THERE WAS A PROPAGANDA OF...

0:45:12.442,0:45:15.846
THE SERBS BEING THREATENED BY EVERYBODY ELSE.

0:45:15.846,0:45:19.182
AND I KNOW PEOPLE WHO, BECAUSE OF THIS PROPAGANDA,

0:45:19.182,0:45:21.685
GOOD PEOPLE, WHO GENUINELY BELIEVED

0:45:21.685,0:45:25.255
THAT THEY ARE SOMEHOW THREATENED, SO THEY HAVE TO ATTACK

0:45:25.255,0:45:27.758
IN ORDER TO DEFEND THEMSELVES.

0:45:27.758,0:45:30.260
[CROWD CHANTS]

0:45:30.260,0:45:32.763
Goldhagen: AS HUTU LEADERS DID IN RWANDA,

0:45:32.763,0:45:35.265
THE SERB LEADER, SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC,

0:45:35.265,0:45:38.101
PLAYED ON BELIEFS HIS FOLLOWERS ALREADY HELD.

0:45:38.101,0:45:42.606
HIS RALLYING CRY WAS ONE THAT MOST SERBS WOULD EASILY EMBRACE:

0:45:42.606,0:45:45.609
UNDER HIS LEADERSHIP, SERBS WOULD RECLAIM THE LAND

0:45:45.609,0:45:47.878
THAT THEY BELIEVED WERE HISTORICALLY THEIRS,

0:45:47.878,0:45:52.382
INCLUDING THE PREDOMINANTLY MUSLIM COUNTRY OF BOSNIA HERZEGOVINA.

0:45:52.382,0:45:56.386
HE EXPLOITED CENTURIES-OLD ANIMOSITIES TOWARD MUSLIMS,

0:45:56.386,0:45:59.890
WHOM THE CHRISTIAN SERBS SAW AS THEIR ETERNAL ENEMIES.

0:45:59.890,0:46:02.826
WHAT THEY'RE BEING TOLD ABOUT BOSNIA'S--

0:46:02.826,0:46:05.162
ABOUT MUSLIMS, THEY ARE A THREAT TO THEM.

0:46:05.162,0:46:07.063
WHY DOES THIS MAKE SENSE TO THEM?

0:46:07.063,0:46:10.567
BECAUSE IT'S IN HARMONY WITH THE NATIONALIST MYTH

0:46:10.567,0:46:14.137
THAT MANY OF THEM HAVE BEEN FED FOR GENERATIONS,

0:46:14.137,0:46:17.674
AND THE LABELINGS OF THE VICTIMS

0:46:17.674,0:46:24.614
THAT THEY VIOLATED DURING THIS ACTIVITY FIT THAT MYTH.

0:46:24.614,0:46:27.117
[CROWD CHANTING]

0:46:27.117,0:46:32.122
Goldhagen: WHEN THOSE HARBORING POWERFUL HATREDS FINALLY ARE GIVEN THE CHANCE TO KILL,

0:46:32.122,0:46:43.834
THEIR EUPHORIA IS UNMISTAKABLE.

0:46:43.834,0:47:23.874
[WHISTLE BLOWING]

0:47:23.874,0:47:27.377
Goldhagen: IN BOSNIA, THE SERBS' PLAN WAS COMPREHENSIVE.

0:47:27.377,0:47:30.881
IT WAS DESCRIBED WIDELY AS ETHNIC CLEANSING,

0:47:30.881,0:47:34.384
A EUPHEMISM THAT TRIVIALIZES THEIR BRUTAL ACTS.

0:47:34.384,0:47:36.887
THEY ROUNDED UP MUSLIM MEN

0:47:36.887,0:47:42.526
AND PUT THEM IN CONCENTRATION CAMPS OR MURDERED THEM OUTRIGHT.

0:47:42.526,0:47:44.861
THEY EXPELLED FAMILIES FROM THEIR HOMES

0:47:44.861,0:47:56.206
AND FROM REGIONS WHICH THEY WANTED EXCLUSIVELY FOR SERBS.

0:47:56.206,0:47:59.209
AND IN THE CAPITAL CITY, SARAJEVO,

0:47:59.209,0:48:07.017
THEY ATTACKED THE CIVILIAN POPULATION FROM THE SURROUNDING HILLS.

0:48:07.017,0:48:08.518
[GUNFIRE]

0:48:08.518,0:48:10.220
[EXPLOSION]

0:48:10.220,0:48:12.222
[SIREN]

0:48:12.222,0:48:16.860
Man: THE BOSNIAN SERBS FIRED 12 MORTAR AND ARTILLERY ROUNDS LAST NIGHT

0:48:16.860,0:48:19.062
INTO A PART OF THE CITY CROWDED WITH YOUNG PEOPLE.

0:48:19.062,0:48:20.564
[GUNFIRE]

0:48:20.564,0:48:23.533
Sudetic: THE SNIPING ACTIVITY HERE WAS NOTORIOUS.

0:48:23.533,0:48:26.536
PEOPLE WALKING DOWN THE STREET WERE HUNTED LIKE ANIMALS.

0:48:26.536,0:48:28.538
SO WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED TO US IF WE HAD BEEN HERE?

0:48:28.538,0:48:30.540
WE WOULD HAVE BEEN SHOT FROM THOSE BUILDINGS OVER THERE.

0:48:30.540,0:48:30.540
THAT FAR AWAY? I MEAN, THE ROOF--

0:48:30.540,0:48:32.542
NO, THAT'S NOT FAR AT ALL.

0:48:32.542,0:48:34.544
I MEAN, A SNIPER COULD HAVE HIT US RIGHT HERE?

0:48:34.544,0:48:36.546
OH, YEAH, YEAH. DEFINITELY.

0:48:36.546,0:48:39.049
IT'S NOT A HARD SHOT FROM--

0:48:39.049,0:48:41.051
FOR A TRAINED SNIPER.

0:48:41.051,0:48:43.253
AND THESE WERE TRAINED PEOPLE. THEY WERE NOT, UH,

0:48:43.253,0:48:45.789
THEY WERE NOT YAHOOS WITH 12-GAUGES.

0:48:45.789,0:48:47.290
[GUNSHOT]

0:48:47.290,0:48:49.292
THESE WERE HIGH-POWERED HUNTING RIFLES.

0:48:49.292,0:48:51.428
THEY USED HIGH-POWERED SNIPER RIFLES

0:48:51.428,0:48:55.932
WITH VERY SOPHISTICATED SIGHT EQUIPMENT ON THEM.

0:48:55.932,0:48:55.932
AND IT'S--

0:48:55.932,0:48:58.468
YOU'D BE BANGED WITH A HEAD SHOT.

0:48:58.468,0:48:59.936
[GUNSHOT]

0:48:59.936,0:49:01.871
YOU COULD WALK ACROSS THIS STREET

0:49:01.871,0:49:04.307
IN BROAD DAYLIGHT AND NOTHING WOULD HAPPEN, BUT THEN--

0:49:04.307,0:49:07.644
[MACHINE GUNFIRE]

0:49:07.644,0:49:09.145
LIKE BAGGING PREY.

0:49:09.145,0:49:10.647
WERE THEY JUST AS LIKELY TO SHOOT WOMEN?

0:49:10.647,0:49:10.647
YES.

0:49:10.647,0:49:10.647
AND CHILDREN?

0:49:10.647,0:49:12.148
YEAH.

0:49:12.148,0:49:12.148
SO IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU BEING A SOLDIER, PER SE.

0:49:12.148,0:49:14.651
NO.

0:49:14.651,0:49:16.653
SO WHAT WAS-- I MEAN, WHAT WAS THE FUNCTION?

0:49:16.653,0:49:16.653
I MEAN, WHY WERE THEY

0:49:16.653,0:49:18.588
DOING THIS? TERROR.

0:49:18.588,0:49:21.124
[EXPLOSION, GUNFIRE]

0:49:21.124,0:49:21.124
GET RID OF THE MUSLIMS.

0:49:21.124,0:49:23.126
YEAH.

0:49:23.126,0:49:25.128
AND SO TERRORIZE THEM,

0:49:25.128,0:49:25.128
KILL AS MANY AS POSSIBLE--

0:49:25.128,0:49:27.130
YES.

0:49:27.130,0:49:31.034
PUSH AS MANY OF THEM INTO AS SMALL AN AREA AS POSSIBLE SO THEY COULD TAKE THE REST.

0:49:31.034,0:49:34.037
THEY KNEW EVERYTHING. THEY PREPARE EVERYTHING.

0:49:34.037,0:49:37.540
IT WAS REALLY ACTUALLY PLANNED AND SYSTEMATIC.

0:49:37.540,0:49:40.043
ACTUALLY SYSTEMATICALLY PLANNED, THE WAR,

0:49:40.043,0:49:44.047
OF ACTUALLY ESTABLISHING CONCENTRATION CAMPS,

0:49:44.047,0:49:48.551
KILLING, RAPING, EVERYTHING.

0:49:48.551,0:49:51.054
RAPING'S ONE OF THE WORST CRIMES.

0:49:51.054,0:49:55.058
IT NOT ONLY HUMILIATES THE PERSON,

0:49:55.058,0:49:55.058
IT DESTROYS THE FAMILY.

0:49:55.058,0:49:57.060
MM-HMM.

0:49:57.060,0:50:01.564
THERE IS SO MANY CASES OF UNWANTED CHILDREN.

0:50:01.564,0:50:05.368
THE MOTHER DOESN'T RECOGNIZE HER SON OR DAUGHTER

0:50:05.368,0:50:08.872
THAT CAME FROM THESE RAPINGS.

0:50:08.872,0:50:12.375
Goldhagen: THE SERBS' WIDESPREAD RAPING OF BOSNIAN WOMEN

0:50:12.375,0:50:14.878
WAS NOT THE KIND OF THING, AS MANY THINK,

0:50:14.878,0:50:16.880
THAT HAPPENS INEVITABLY IN WAR ZONES.

0:50:16.880,0:50:20.383
Muratcaus: THEY DID NOTHING, ACTUALLY...

0:50:20.383,0:50:22.385
Goldhagen, voice-over: LIKE KILLING,

0:50:22.385,0:50:26.389
THE SERBS USE RAPE AND RAPE CAMPS AS AN INTEGRAL COMPONENT

0:50:26.389,0:50:29.893
OF THEIR CAMPAIGN TO RID THE COUNTRY OF ITS MUSLIM POPULATION.

0:50:29.893,0:50:34.864
Muratcaus: WE WILL NEVER FIND OUT HOW MANY WOMEN WERE RAPED

0:50:34.864,0:50:37.000
ALL OVER BOSNIA.

0:50:37.000,0:50:40.003
THEY ACTUALLY POSED US

0:50:40.003,0:50:44.708
IN SOME BIG ROOMS WITH MAYBE 14 BEDS.

0:50:44.708,0:50:50.213
THEY ARE YELLING AT US, "YOU WILL HAVE SERBIAN BABIES, SERBIAN CHILDREN."

0:50:50.213,0:50:52.215
THEY WERE BEATEN,

0:50:52.215,0:50:54.718
HORRIBLY BEATEN

0:50:54.718,0:50:59.222
WITH FACE, WITH, ACTUALLY, THEIR LEGS AND...

0:50:59.222,0:51:02.892
HORRIBLE.

0:51:02.892,0:51:07.464
[COMPUTER KEYBOARD KEYS TAPPING]

0:51:07.464,0:51:10.467
THERE'S A LOT TO MAKE SENSE OF HERE.

0:51:10.467,0:51:13.470
IT SEEMS TO ME WE'VE BEEN MISSING A CRITICAL POINT

0:51:13.470,0:51:15.972
IN UNDERSTANDING THESE HORRORS.

0:51:15.972,0:51:19.476
THE MASTERMINDS OF GENOCIDE USE DIFFERENT MEANS

0:51:19.476,0:51:24.414
IN VARYING COMBINATIONS TO GET RID OF UNWANTED PEOPLE.

0:51:24.414,0:51:27.117
THEY EXPEL VICTIMS FROM THEIR COUNTRIES,

0:51:27.117,0:51:28.885
THEY HERD THEM INTO CAMPS,

0:51:28.885,0:51:31.621
THEY RAPE WOMEN IN AN ORGANIZED WAY,

0:51:31.621,0:51:36.626
AND OF COURSE, THEY SYSTEMATICALLY SLAUGHTER.

0:51:36.626,0:51:39.629
[COMPUTER KEYBOARD KEYS TAPPING]

0:51:39.629,0:51:45.635
SO WHAT WE OFTEN THINK OF AS GENOCIDE IS NEVER JUST ABOUT KILLING.

0:51:45.635,0:51:48.471
WHAT THE PERPETRATORS WANT MOST OF ALL

0:51:48.471,0:51:59.983
IS TO ELIMINATE A SUBSTANTIAL PART OR ALL OF THE TARGETED GROUP.

0:51:59.983,0:52:02.919
TERMS LIKE "GENOCIDE" OR EVEN "MASS MURDER"

0:52:02.919,0:52:09.926
ARE INADEQUATE TO DESCRIBE THE PHENOMENON WE HAVE REPEATEDLY WITNESSED.

0:52:09.926,0:52:14.998
AS A POLITICAL SCIENTIST, I LIVE AND WORK IN A WORLD OF ISMS.

0:52:14.998,0:52:19.769
THIS ONE WE SHOULD CALL ELIMINATIONISM.

0:52:19.769,0:52:26.276
REFRAMING THE WAY WE THINK ABOUT THESE DEEDS IS NOT JUST AN INTELLECTUAL EXERCISE.

0:52:26.276,0:52:28.778
IT'S A CRITICAL COMPONENT OF UNDERSTANDING

0:52:28.778,0:52:34.784
THAT GENOCIDE IS ONE PART OF A LARGER PHENOMENON THAT WE MUST COMBAT.

0:52:34.784,0:52:39.689
WE NEED TO BE ON ALERT WHEN WE SEE ANY FORM OF ELIMINATIONIST POLITICS,

0:52:39.689,0:52:45.695
WHETHER IT INITIALLY INCLUDES KILLING OR NOT.

0:52:45.695,0:52:50.200
EVERYWHERE IT IS PRACTICED, ELIMINATIONISM TAKES DIFFERENT FORMS.

0:52:50.200,0:52:52.702
RWANDA WAS DIFFERENT FROM BOSNIA,

0:52:52.702,0:52:57.207
CAMBODIA WAS DIFFERENT FROM TURKEY.

0:52:57.207,0:53:04.080
THE GERMANS' ASSAULT ON THE JEWS WAS ALSO DIFFERENT.

0:53:04.080,0:53:09.152
IT WAS THE ONLY CASE WHEN PERPETRATORS TARGETED EVERY ADULT AND CHILD,

0:53:09.152,0:53:12.655
WITHOUT EXCEPTION, FOR ANNIHILATION,

0:53:12.655,0:53:17.594
AND WHERE THAT MURDEROUS POLICY EXTENDED TO COUNTRY AFTER COUNTRY,

0:53:17.594,0:53:21.598
INCLUDING JEWS HALF A CONTINENT AWAY.

0:53:21.598,0:53:24.601
Goldhagen: SO IT'S 64 YEARS SINCE YOU'VE BEEN BACK, RIGHT?

0:53:24.601,0:53:24.601
YES, THAT'S RIGHT, YES.

0:53:24.601,0:53:26.069
AND--

0:53:26.069,0:53:28.571
AND I FEEL THE SADNESS AS I COME BACK

0:53:28.571,0:53:31.074
TO THIS PLACE WHERE I WAS ALMOST KILLED,

0:53:31.074,0:53:34.577
WHERE A GREAT PART OF MY FAMILY LIES BURIED.

0:53:34.577,0:53:38.581
HAD YOU--HAD YOU EVER--

0:53:38.581,0:53:40.583
HAD YOU PLANNED ONE DAY TO COME BACK ON YOUR OWN?

0:53:40.583,0:53:43.086
NO, NEVER. REALLY NOT.

0:53:43.086,0:53:45.588
UH, I PROBABLY WOULD HAVE NEVER COME BACK

0:53:45.588,0:53:49.592
HAD IT NOT BEEN THAT YOU WERE MAKING THIS FILM.

0:53:49.592,0:53:53.096
SO ARE YOU A RELUCTANT, IF WILLING, PARTICIPANT?

0:53:53.096,0:54:03.706
AN AMBIVALENT PARTICIPANT, I WOULD SAY.

0:54:03.706,0:54:06.776
Goldhagen: THE JEWS IN THE REGION WHERE MY FATHER LIVED

0:54:06.776,0:54:09.979
WERE KILLED, IN MOST CASES, BY THE EINSATZGRUPPEN--

0:54:09.979,0:54:13.483
MOBILE KILLING SQUADS CHARGED WITH EXTERMINATING EVERY JEW

0:54:13.483,0:54:16.986
IN THE SOVIET TERRITORY CONQUERED BY THE GERMANS.

0:54:16.986,0:54:30.333
THEY KILLED WITH BRUTAL ABANDON.

0:54:30.333,0:54:33.836
Goldhagen: IS THERE ANY-- IS THERE A POSITIVE SIDE FOR YOU TO GO BACK?

0:54:33.836,0:54:36.105
SHOWING ME THE PLACES YOU WERE--

0:54:36.105,0:54:38.608
YES, SHOWING YOU THE PLACES

0:54:38.608,0:54:42.111
BECAUSE YOU HAVE BEEN SORT OF AN ACADEMIC,

0:54:42.111,0:54:45.615
VERY SECLUDED,

0:54:45.615,0:54:48.117
NEVER...

0:54:48.117,0:54:52.121
FOR THE FIRST TIME-- YOU HAVE STUDIED

0:54:52.121,0:54:56.626
THIS PHENOMENON FROM A DISTANCE, THROUGH DOCUMENT.

0:54:56.626,0:55:06.069
COME NOW, YOU HAVE SEEN THE MASS GRAVES IN GUATEMALA.

0:55:06.069,0:55:09.072
AND YOU CERTAINLY SHOULD HAVE A LOOK AT THE MASS GRAVE

0:55:09.072,0:55:17.580
OF SOME OF YOUR RELATIVES, GRAVE OF MY PARENTS.

0:55:17.580,0:55:23.086
Goldhagen: THERE WERE 2,000 JEWS IN THIS TOWN WHEN MY FATHER USED TO VISIT HIS RELATIVES HERE.

0:55:23.086,0:55:27.223
NOW THERE ARE 3.

0:55:27.223,0:55:32.228
MOST LIE IN A MASS GRAVE NEAR WHAT IS NOW A POPULAR PICNIC SITE.

0:55:32.228,0:55:39.168
[BOYS SHOUTING]

0:55:39.168,0:55:41.671
[SPEAKING NATIVE LANGUAGE]

0:55:41.671,0:55:45.842
Goldhagen: LIKE MY FATHER, I HAVE ALWAYS ENDEAVORED TO SEPARATE MY EMOTIONS

0:55:45.842,0:55:48.344
FROM MY SCHOLARLY WORK ON GENOCIDE.

0:55:48.344,0:55:52.849
BUT HERE WE ARE, AT A MOMENT THAT I NEVER IMAGINED.

0:55:52.849,0:55:56.019
A LOCAL MAN HAS AGREED TO GUIDE US TO THE SITE

0:55:56.019,0:56:00.456
WHERE GERMANS MURDERED MY FATHER'S RELATIVES AND 2,000 OTHERS.

0:56:00.456,0:56:01.958
I SEE, I SEE.

0:56:01.958,0:56:13.536
OH, HERE WE CAN GO CLOSE.

0:56:13.536,0:56:17.040
Goldhagen: THE SCHOLAR'S JOB IS TO STAND BACK AND ANALYZE,

0:56:17.040,0:56:21.110
BUT THE SURVIVOR AND THE SON HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO DRAW NEAR.

0:56:21.110,0:56:23.613
"TO THE ETERNAL MEMORY

0:56:23.613,0:56:27.884
OF THE JEWS OF KOSOV..."

0:56:27.884,0:56:30.887
"WHO WERE MURDERED

0:56:30.887,0:56:34.724
"BY THE NAZI MURDERERS

0:56:34.724,0:56:38.261
AND THEIR HELPERS."

0:56:38.261,0:56:39.796
SO...

0:56:39.796,0:56:42.799
HOW MANY...PEOPLE FROM YOUR FAMILY

0:56:42.799,0:56:45.802
ARE LYING IN THIS MASS GRAVE--

0:56:45.802,0:56:48.771
I WOULD ESTIMATE IT OVER A DOZEN PEOPLE.

0:56:48.771,0:56:50.273
WERE YOU CLOSE TO THEM?

0:56:50.273,0:56:52.041
I WAS VERY CLOSE TO THEM. I VISITED THEM HERE,

0:56:52.041,0:56:55.044
AND IT EVOKES SOME CERTAIN EMOTIONS.

0:56:55.044,0:56:59.048
THE IMAGES OF SOME, OF ELDERS APPEAR BEFORE ME.

0:56:59.048,0:57:03.486
I SEE THEM NOW. AS I SPEAK TO YOU NOW, I SEE THEM.

0:57:03.486,0:57:07.657
SOMETIMES--AS YOU MAY REMEMBER WHEN I GAVE THE COURSE

0:57:07.657,0:57:10.793
ON THE HOLOCAUST AT HARVARD--

0:57:10.793,0:57:13.563
I EXPERIENCE SOMETIMES A SENSE OF GUILT

0:57:13.563,0:57:16.165
AT THE FACT THAT I SPEAK SO COOLLY

0:57:16.165,0:57:18.334
AND ANALYTICALLY OVER THEIR DEATH.

0:57:18.334,0:57:21.204
I'M YOUR SON IN MANY WAYS,

0:57:21.204,0:57:24.073
AND YOUR DISPASSION IS MY OWN.

0:57:24.073,0:57:26.075
HOW--HOW DID THEY DIE?

0:57:26.075,0:57:27.643
WHAT HAPPENED HERE?

0:57:27.643,0:57:30.012
WELL, THEY BROUGHT THEM UP HERE

0:57:30.012,0:57:31.614
AND KILLED THEM BY GUNFIRE.

0:57:31.614,0:57:33.316
ONE GROUP FELL INTO THE GRAVE.

0:57:33.316,0:57:34.951
THEN ANOTHER GROUP WAS LINED UP,

0:57:34.951,0:57:36.185
THEY FELL INTO THE GRAVE.

0:57:36.185,0:57:36.185
WHEN THEY WERE SHOT?

0:57:36.185,0:57:37.920
WHEN THEY WERE SHOT

0:57:37.920,0:57:40.289
UNTIL--AND MANY OF THEM WERE PROBABLY NOT KILLED,

0:57:40.289,0:57:41.757
MANY OF THEM WERE PROBABLY NOT DEAD.

0:57:41.757,0:57:44.961
THEY WERE ALIVE AS THEY FELL INTO THE GRAVE,

0:57:44.961,0:57:50.066
AND UKRAINIAN GROUPS WERE MADE TO COVER THE GRAVES.

0:57:50.066,0:57:51.801
YOU KNOW, AS WE'VE OFTEN SPOKEN BEFORE,

0:57:51.801,0:57:55.738
IT'S SHOCKING TO ME TO REFLECT ON HOW DETACHED I AM, TOO,

0:57:55.738,0:57:57.807
FROM THIS, THAT I DIDN'T EVEN MAKE

0:57:57.807,0:58:00.276
THIS OBVIOUS CONNECTION THAT WE WERE GOING HERE

0:58:00.276,0:58:02.545
WHEN I WAS IN A MASS GRAVE IN GUATEMALA,

0:58:02.545,0:58:04.780
BUT NOW THAT WE'RE HERE,

0:58:04.780,0:58:07.216
I REALIZE THAT SUDDENLY MY RELATIVES

0:58:07.216,0:58:10.153
MURDERED SIT BELOW US, LIE BELOW US

0:58:10.153,0:58:15.057
UNMARKED, UNKNOWN,

0:58:15.057,0:58:16.792
BARELY REGISTERED IN ANY WAY,

0:58:16.792,0:58:21.831
THEIR NAMES ABSENT, SOON TO BE FORGOTTEN COMPLETELY.

0:58:21.831,0:58:34.343
SHOULD WE GET SOME STONES, TATI?

0:58:34.343,0:59:10.446
PERHAPS WE BETTER PUT THEM ON EACH.

0:59:10.446,0:59:19.388
[INDISTINCT CHATTER]

0:59:19.388,0:59:21.357
[DRUMS BEATING]

0:59:21.357,0:59:32.501
[SINGING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE]

0:59:32.501,0:59:35.371
Woman: WELL, CERTAINLY, WE THOUGHT THAT WE WERE SAYING,

0:59:35.371,0:59:38.608
"NEVER AGAIN," BUT WE KEEP SAYING, "NEVER AGAIN,"

0:59:38.608,0:59:40.142
OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

0:59:40.142,0:59:41.377
WELL, THERE ARE TWO DIFFERENT ISSUES.

0:59:41.377,0:59:43.279
WHY DOES THIS KEEP HAPPENING AGAIN,

0:59:43.279,0:59:45.047
AND WHY DOESN'T ANYBODY DO ANYTHING

0:59:45.047,0:59:46.782
TO STOP IT FROM HAPPENING AGAIN?

0:59:46.782,0:59:48.951
AND IT KEEPS HAPPENING BECAUSE

0:59:48.951,0:59:50.987
THERE ARE POLITICAL REGIMES THAT FIND IT USEFUL

0:59:50.987,0:59:53.556
TO DEAL WITH THEIR SELF-DEFINED PROBLEMS,

0:59:53.556,0:59:55.057
AND IT'S A VERY USEFUL TOOL.

0:59:55.057,0:59:58.361
THEY DO IT BECAUSE THEY KNOW THEY HAVE BASICALLY IMPUNITY,

0:59:58.361,1:00:01.230
AND THERE HAS BEEN VERY LITTLE CALLING TO ACCOUNT,

1:00:01.230,1:00:03.733
AND THEY GET AWAY WITH IT TIME AND TIME AGAIN.

1:00:03.733,1:00:06.569
SO QUITE CLEARLY, THE STATUS QUO IS CATASTROPHIC,

1:00:06.569,1:00:07.670
AND WHEN I SAY CATASTROPHIC,

1:00:07.670,1:00:09.705
I MEAN LITERALLY CATASTROPHIC

1:00:09.705,1:00:11.707
BECAUSE IT TAKES THE LIVES OF TENS OF THOUSANDS,

1:00:11.707,1:00:12.808
HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS,

1:00:12.808,1:00:15.111
MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS OF PEOPLE,

1:00:15.111,1:00:17.146
AND SO "NEVER AGAIN" IS A HOLLOW PHRASE.

1:00:17.146,1:00:19.148
IT'S WELL-MEANT, BUT IN THE WORLD

1:00:19.148,1:00:20.683
OF WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENS,

1:00:20.683,1:00:26.756
IT'S BEEN A HOLLOW PHRASE, A MOCKERY OF ITSELF.

1:00:26.756,1:00:30.059
THE INACTION OF WORLD LEADERS IN THE FACE OF MASS SLAUGHTER

1:00:30.059,1:00:33.195
GOES BACK WELL BEFORE THE HOLOCAUST,

1:00:33.195,1:00:37.600
AND GENOCIDAL LEADERS HAVE TAKEN NOTE.

1:00:37.600,1:00:40.436
STARTING IN 1915, THE TURKISH GOVERNMENT KILLED

1:00:40.436,1:00:42.805
AT LEAST A MILLION ARMENIANS

1:00:42.805,1:00:46.609
AND EXPELLED HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS MORE.

1:00:46.609,1:00:48.611
THE STORY OF THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE

1:00:48.611,1:00:52.448
WAS COVERED ON THE FRONT PAGE OF THE "NEW YORK TIMES,"

1:00:52.448,1:00:54.750
AND TURKEY'S LEADERS WERE EXPLICITLY WARNED

1:00:54.750,1:00:56.986
BY THE U.S. AND OTHERS THAT THEIR NATION

1:00:56.986,1:01:00.723
WOULD BE CONDEMNED BY THE WORLD,

1:01:00.723,1:01:05.761
BUT THE MASTERMINDS OF GENOCIDE WERE UNDETERRED.

1:01:05.761,1:01:08.564
THE TURKS BRAZENLY DESTROYED COMMUNITIES,

1:01:08.564,1:01:11.801
KILLED, RAPED, AND DROVE THE ARMENIAN PEOPLE

1:01:11.801,1:01:17.840
INTO THE DESERT, WHERE THEY STARVED TO DEATH.

1:01:17.840,1:01:19.542
FOR A CENTURY, TURKEY HAS REFUSED

1:01:19.542,1:01:22.712
TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE GENOCIDE,

1:01:22.712,1:01:24.780
AND REMARKABLY, MANY AROUND THE WORLD,

1:01:24.780,1:01:29.418
INCLUDING THE U.S. GOVERNMENT, HAVE ALLOWED THEM TO DO SO.

1:01:29.418,1:01:30.686
Man: THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE

1:01:30.686,1:01:34.957
IS THE ONLY GENOCIDE THAT WE HAVE TROUBLE RECOGNIZING,

1:01:34.957,1:01:37.293
AND IT'S BECAUSE THE CAMPAIGN OF DENIAL

1:01:37.293,1:01:38.861
CONTINUES TO THIS DAY.

1:01:38.861,1:01:41.197
Woman: OUR GOVERNMENT IS FLAT OUT WRONG

1:01:41.197,1:01:44.633
IN THEIR REFUSAL TO RECOGNIZE THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE.

1:01:44.633,1:01:49.305
WE MUST CALL GENOCIDE BY ITS NAME.

1:01:49.305,1:01:51.340
Schiff: WE CAN'T HAVE THE KIND OF LEADERSHIP

1:01:51.340,1:01:54.810
THAT WE NEED IN STOPPING GENOCIDE GOING ON TODAY

1:01:54.810,1:01:58.314
IF WE'RE EQUIVOCAL ABOUT THE MURDER OF OTHER PEOPLE

1:01:58.314,1:02:02.618
BECAUSE IT MIGHT OFFEND AN ALLY.

1:02:02.618,1:02:04.086
I SHOULD THINK THAT IT WOULD BE A NO-BRAINER

1:02:04.086,1:02:06.222
THAT A RESOLUTION BE PASSED TO ACKNOWLEDGE THIS.

1:02:06.222,1:02:07.623
WHAT'S THE PROBLEM?

1:02:07.623,1:02:09.458
WELL, IT SHOULD BE A NO-BRAINER.

1:02:09.458,1:02:12.461
AS IT IS, IT'S AN ENORMOUSLY DIFFICULT CHALLENGE.

1:02:12.461,1:02:16.732
WHEN THE GENOCIDE RESOLUTION WAS IN COMMITTEE LAST FALL,

1:02:16.732,1:02:18.100
THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES

1:02:18.100,1:02:21.237
WAS ON THE PHONE, CALLING COMMITTEE MEMBERS AT THEIR HOME

1:02:21.237,1:02:22.772
TO URGE THEM TO VOTE AGAINST IT.

1:02:22.772,1:02:22.772
FOR THIS RESOLUTION?

1:02:22.772,1:02:24.573
FOR THIS RESOLUTION.

1:02:24.573,1:02:27.676
WE ALL DEEPLY REGRET THE TRAGIC SUFFERING OF THE ARMENIAN PEOPLE

1:02:27.676,1:02:31.514
THAT BEGAN IN 1915.

1:02:31.514,1:02:33.482
THIS RESOLUTION IS NOT THE RIGHT RESPONSE

1:02:33.482,1:02:35.618
TO THESE HISTORIC MASS KILLINGS.

1:02:35.618,1:02:36.719
THE PROBLEM THAT WE HAVE

1:02:36.719,1:02:37.887
IS THAT THIS IS CLEARLY

1:02:37.887,1:02:39.221
A VERY SENSITIVE SUBJECT

1:02:39.221,1:02:40.689
FOR ONE OF OUR CLOSEST ALLIES.

1:02:40.689,1:02:43.492
YOU HAD MEMBERS OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF CALLING MEMBERS,

1:02:43.492,1:02:46.228
YOU HAD THE SECRETARY OF STATE CALLING MEMBERS.

1:02:46.228,1:02:50.299
I'VE NEVER SEEN A FULL-COURT PRESS LIKE THIS ON ANY RESOLUTION.

1:02:50.299,1:02:52.501
I DON'T THINK WE STRENGTHEN OUR RELATIONSHIP

1:02:52.501,1:02:54.970
EVEN WITH AN ALLY WHEN WE TURN A BLIND EYE

1:02:54.970,1:02:58.774
TO SOME OF THE WORST CHAPTERS IN HUMAN HISTORY.

1:02:58.774,1:03:02.111
Goldhagen: OUR POLITICIANS MAY FAIL TO LEARN FROM HISTORY,

1:03:02.111,1:03:04.447
BUT THERE IS AMPLE EVIDENCE THAT MASS MURDERERS

1:03:04.447,1:03:06.482
HAVE LEARNED QUITE WELL.

1:03:06.482,1:03:08.250
Man: SUDANESE PRESIDENT OMAR AL-BASHIR

1:03:08.250,1:03:09.685
HAS BEEN ACCUSED OF MASTERMINDING

1:03:09.685,1:03:12.054
A CAMPAIGN OF GENOCIDE IN DARFUR.

1:03:12.054,1:03:15.791
Goldhagen: 20 YEARS BEFORE THE RECENT CRISIS IN DARFUR,

1:03:15.791,1:03:18.461
THE SAME SUDANESE GOVERNMENT KILLED AND EXPELLED

1:03:18.461,1:03:25.668
EVEN MORE PEOPLE IN SOUTHERN SUDAN.

1:03:25.668,1:03:27.703
AFTER KILLING TWO MILLION THEN,

1:03:27.703,1:03:30.840
THE SUDANESE LEADER OMAR AL-BASHIR LEARNED

1:03:30.840,1:03:36.745
THAT THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY WOULD LET HIM DO IT AGAIN.

1:03:36.745,1:03:50.392
WHY DOES THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY FAIL TO INTERVENE TIME AND TIME AGAIN?

1:03:50.392,1:03:54.296
JUST TELL ME.

1:03:54.296,1:03:55.965
Madeleine Albright: AS OUR REPORT EMPHASIZES,

1:03:55.965,1:03:58.767
THE CHOICE WE FACE IN TRYING TO PREVENT GENOCIDE

1:03:58.767,1:04:02.638
IS RARELY A CASE OF ALL OR NOTHING.

1:04:02.638,1:04:05.641
THERE IS A BROAD RANGE OF FOREIGN POLICY OPTIONS

1:04:05.641,1:04:09.411
BETWEEN STANDING ASIDE AND ORDERING IN THE MARINES.

1:04:09.411,1:04:12.648
Goldhagen: THE CO-CHAIR OF A RECENT TASK FORCE ON THE SUBJECT,

1:04:12.648,1:04:15.384
FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE MADELEINE ALBRIGHT

1:04:15.384,1:04:18.254
SERVED AS U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS

1:04:18.254,1:04:20.823
DURING THE BOSNIAN AND RWANDAN GENOCIDES.

1:04:20.823,1:04:32.134
[ELEVATOR PINGING]

1:04:32.134,1:04:34.503
Goldhagen: YOU KNOW, IF ONE IS SIMPLY NAIVE,

1:04:34.503,1:04:39.642
ONE SEES A WORLD OF POWERFUL COUNTRIES USUALLY LOOKING ON

1:04:39.642,1:04:42.978
WITH SOME INEPTITUDE AT BEST AT COUNTRIES

1:04:42.978,1:04:44.713
THAT ARE POOR AND NOT VERY POWERFUL

1:04:44.713,1:04:47.116
IN WHICH THEIR LEADERSHIP IS SLAUGHTERING PEOPLE,

1:04:47.116,1:04:49.585
AND YOU WONDER HOW CAN THIS BE?

1:04:49.585,1:04:51.287
IF YOU GO TO PEOPLE AND YOU SAY,

1:04:51.287,1:04:53.155
"YOU CAN PREVENT MASS MURDER,"

1:04:53.155,1:04:55.124
THEN MOST PEOPLE WILL THINK,

1:04:55.124,1:04:57.059
"OK. I'LL DO THE BEST I CAN."

1:04:57.059,1:05:00.229
THE PROBLEM IS THAT WORLD LEADERS

1:05:00.229,1:05:02.431
OR LEADERS GENERALLY ARE DISTRACTED.

1:05:02.431,1:05:03.799
THERE'S SO MUCH TO DO.

1:05:03.799,1:05:05.434
IT ISN'T AS IF THEY'RE NOT DOING ANYTHING.

1:05:05.434,1:05:07.636
THERE'S NO WAY TO DESCRIBE TO SOMEONE

1:05:07.636,1:05:10.172
THAT HAS NEVER BEEN IN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT

1:05:10.172,1:05:14.243
OR ANY GOVERNMENT HOW MANY THINGS ARE HAPPENING EVERY HOUR

1:05:14.243,1:05:18.914
AND REQUIRE ATTENTION AND REQUIRE WILL AND REQUIRE RESOURCES.

1:05:18.914,1:05:22.084
THE QUESTION IS WHETHER YOUR GOVERNMENTAL SYSTEM

1:05:22.084,1:05:27.022
IS SET UP IN A WAY THAT YOU DON'T HAVE TO START FROM SCRATCH.

1:05:27.022,1:05:28.824
WE CAN TALK ABOUT RWANDA,

1:05:28.824,1:05:31.193
WHERE THERE WERE MANY DIFFERENT PLAYERS INVOLVED

1:05:31.193,1:05:33.295
AND PEOPLE HAD DIFFERENT DEGREES OF KNOWLEDGE

1:05:33.295,1:05:35.497
AT DIFFERENT TIMES ABOUT WHAT WAS GOING ON.

1:05:35.497,1:05:37.566
IT SEEMS THAT THERE WAS A CLEAR LACK OF WILL--

1:05:37.566,1:05:39.535
NOT GOODWILL IN THE SENSE OF COURSE PEOPLE DIDN'T WANT

1:05:39.535,1:05:41.036
THE PEOPLE THERE TO BE SLAUGHTERED,

1:05:41.036,1:05:44.173
BUT WILL ACTUALLY TO TAKE THE SACRIFICE

1:05:44.173,1:05:45.374
OR MAKE THE SACRIFICE THAT WAS NECESSARY

1:05:45.374,1:05:46.775
SEE, I DISAGREE WITH YOU.

1:05:46.775,1:05:50.479
THE BELGIANS PULLED OUT, DALLAIRE WAS-- YOU KNOW THE STORY.

1:05:50.479,1:05:54.917
DALLAIRE WAS CRYING OUT FOR MORE SUPPORT.

1:05:54.917,1:05:57.286
MAYBE NOT EVERYONE COULD HAVE BEEN SAVED,

1:05:57.286,1:05:58.621
BUT A LOT OF PEOPLE COULD HAVE BEEN SAVED.

1:05:58.621,1:06:00.789
I MEAN, THIS IS AN ISSUE THAT WEIGHS VERY HEAVY

1:06:00.789,1:06:02.191
ON ALL OUR HEARTS.

1:06:02.191,1:06:03.692
WE WERE AT THE SAME TIME DEALING

1:06:03.692,1:06:06.729
WITH SOMALIA, BOSNIA, HAITI,

1:06:06.729,1:06:08.864
A FEW OTHER THINGS THAT WERE GOING ON,

1:06:08.864,1:06:12.568
AND I THINK THAT PEOPLE DID NOT FULLY UNDERSTAND

1:06:12.568,1:06:15.004
ALL THE HUTU-TUTSI RIVALRY

1:06:15.004,1:06:17.106
AND THE INTERNAL THINGS THAT WERE BUILDING UP.

1:06:17.106,1:06:20.242
THAT, I THINK, WAS SOMETHING THAT HAD NOT BEEN PAID

1:06:20.242,1:06:21.810
ENOUGH ATTENTION TO.

1:06:21.810,1:06:24.146
IT IS MUCH EASIER EX POST FACTO

1:06:24.146,1:06:27.383
TO SAY WE KNEW THESE KINDS OF THINGS WERE GOING ON,

1:06:27.383,1:06:30.519
BUT AT THE TIME I WAS AMBASSADOR AT THE UNITED NATIONS,

1:06:30.519,1:06:36.725
AND I CAN TELL YOU THAT THE INFORMATION WAS NOT THERE.

1:06:36.725,1:06:39.528
Goldhagen: I DON'T KNOW WHAT KIND OF INFORMATION ALBRIGHT NEEDED,

1:06:39.528,1:06:42.064
BUT EVEN MORE THAN DURING THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE,

1:06:42.064,1:06:44.266
INFORMATION ABOUT THE RWANDAN GENOCIDE

1:06:44.266,1:06:48.671
WAS AVAILABLE TO ANYONE WITH ACCESS TO TV OR NEWSPAPER,

1:06:48.671,1:06:50.739
AS THERE WERE MULTIPLE SOURCES OF INFORMATION

1:06:50.739,1:06:52.474
COMING STRAIGHT FROM RWANDA,

1:06:52.474,1:06:56.879
WHERE EVERYONE KNEW.

1:06:56.879,1:06:59.815
AS SOON AS THE KILLING BEGAN, MANY TUTSI,

1:06:59.815,1:07:01.550
INCLUDING EMMANUEL GATARI,

1:07:01.550,1:07:03.686
MADE THEIR WAY TO A TECHNICAL SCHOOL,

1:07:03.686,1:07:54.470
WHICH WAS BEING PROTECTED BY U.N. PEACEKEEPERS.

1:07:54.470,1:07:58.440
AS THE LIVES OF EMMANUEL AND THE OTHERS WITH HIM HUNG IN THE BALANCE,

1:07:58.440,1:08:00.042
THE U.S. AND OTHER FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS

1:08:00.042,1:08:25.033
BEGAN TO EVACUATE THEIR CITIZENS FROM RWANDA.

1:08:25.033,1:08:48.657
[EMMANUEL SPEAKING NATIVE LANGUAGE]

1:08:48.657,1:08:52.795
[MACHINEGUNS FIRING]

1:08:52.795,1:08:56.865
Karugarama: AND THERE WERE SO MANY PEOPLE HAD RUN TO THE U.N.

1:08:56.865,1:09:00.169
FOR SECURITY, FOR PROTECTION,

1:09:00.169,1:09:02.838
AND THEY WITHDREW AND LEFT THEM THERE

1:09:02.838,1:09:13.382
TO BE MASSACRED IN COLD BLOOD.

1:09:13.382,1:09:18.020
THIS IS REALLY SOMETHING THAT THE U.N.

1:09:18.020,1:09:20.055
SHOULD BE ABLE TO EXPLAIN.

1:09:20.055,1:09:24.159
HOW DO YOU WITHDRAW PEOPLE WHO ARE SUPPOSED TO PROTECT PEOPLE

1:09:24.159,1:09:27.029
AT A TIME THAT IS SO CRITICAL,

1:09:27.029,1:10:53.782
AT A TIME WHEN YOU SEE THE KILLINGS HAD ALREADY STARTED?

1:10:53.782,1:10:56.151
Goldhagen: A LACK OF INFORMATION IS NOT THE REASON

1:10:56.151,1:10:59.621
WORLD LEADERS FAIL TO INTERVENE TO STOP GENOCIDES.

1:10:59.621,1:11:05.761
THE PROBLEM IS A LACK OF WILL.

1:11:05.761,1:11:09.097
FOR MORE THAN HALF A CENTURY, PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD

1:11:09.097,1:11:12.167
HAVE EXPECTED THE MEN AND WOMEN HERE AT THE UNITED NATIONS

1:11:12.167,1:11:15.170
TO PROTECT THEM,

1:11:15.170,1:11:20.275
AND TIME AND AGAIN, THE U.N. HAS LET THOSE PEOPLE DOWN.

1:11:20.275,1:11:23.545
I LOOK AROUND AT THE MANY STATES HERE THAT HAVE TERRORIZED,

1:11:23.545,1:11:26.782
OPPRESSED, AND ELIMINATED THEIR OWN PEOPLE,

1:11:26.782,1:11:30.352
AND I THINK, "WHY WOULD ANYONE LOOK TO THIS BODY

1:11:30.352,1:11:36.358
TO COMBAT THESE EVILS AROUND THE WORLD?"

1:11:36.358,1:11:39.094
IN 1948, THE UNITED NATIONS ADOPTED

1:11:39.094,1:11:42.931
AN ANTIGENOCIDE CONVENTION THAT LEGALLY DEFINED GENOCIDE

1:11:42.931,1:11:45.100
AND AUTHORIZED ITS MEMBER STATES

1:11:45.100,1:11:49.104
TO STOP AND PUNISH ACTS OF MASS MURDER.

1:11:49.104,1:11:53.141
THE DOCUMENT IS NOBLE-SOUNDING BUT TOTALLY INEFFECTIVE.

1:11:53.141,1:11:55.310
IT HAS NEVER ONCE BEEN INVOKED TO PREVENT THE DEATH

1:11:55.310,1:12:00.048
OF A SINGLE PERSON.

1:12:00.048,1:12:02.584
THERE'S A FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM HERE.

1:12:02.584,1:12:06.088
THE U.N. EXISTS LARGELY TO PROTECT STATE SOVEREIGNTY,

1:12:06.088,1:12:08.523
A STATE'S RIGHT TO BE IMMUNE FROM OTHER COUNTRIES

1:12:08.523,1:12:11.927
INTERVENING IN ITS INTERNAL AFFAIRS.

1:12:11.927,1:12:15.163
SO HOW CAN WE EXPECT TO ALSO PROMOTE INTERVENTION

1:12:15.163,1:12:16.832
WHEN A SOVEREIGN STATE AND ITS PEOPLE

1:12:16.832,1:12:22.004
ARE ELIMINATING, KILLING, RAPING, AND EXPELLING GROUPS OF ITS OWN CITIZENS?

1:12:22.004,1:12:24.539
Man: I DON'T SEE SOVEREIGNTY NEGATIVELY

1:12:24.539,1:12:27.175
AS A CONCEPT OF BARRICADING YOURSELF AGAINST THE WORLD

1:12:27.175,1:12:28.810
WHILE YOUR PEOPLE ARE SUFFERING.

1:12:28.810,1:12:31.913
I SEE IT AS A POSITIVE CONCEPT

1:12:31.913,1:12:34.616
OF THE STATE DISCHARGING ITS RESPONSIBILITIES

1:12:34.616,1:12:36.318
TOWARDS ITS OWN CITIZENS,

1:12:36.318,1:12:39.021
PROVIDING THEM WITH PROTECTION AND ASSISTANCE,

1:12:39.021,1:12:42.624
AND IF FOR LACK OF CAPACITY, YOU CANNOT DO IT,

1:12:42.624,1:12:45.494
CALL ON THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY TO COME AND HELP YOU

1:12:45.494,1:12:47.963
DO WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY IN THE FIRST PLACE.

1:12:47.963,1:12:51.266
YOU KNOW, I APPLAUD WHAT YOU DO, AND I AGREE,

1:12:51.266,1:12:53.368
AND I ALSO VERY MUCH LIKE

1:12:53.368,1:12:55.670
RECONCEPTUALIZING CONCEPTS THE WAY YOU HAVE

1:12:55.670,1:12:57.939
WITH SOVEREIGNTY, BUT YOU'RE

1:12:57.939,1:12:59.307
IN A MINORITY THERE, AS YOU WELL KNOW...

1:12:59.307,1:13:00.342
ABSOLUTELY.

1:13:00.342,1:13:02.544
AND EVEN IN THIS HALL IN PARTICULAR,

1:13:02.544,1:13:03.812
YOU WOULD BE IN A MINORITY

1:13:03.812,1:13:06.448
IF YOU WERE TO STAND UP AND TO GIVE AND SPEECH HERE,

1:13:06.448,1:13:09.818
AND IT SEEMS TO ME THAT SOVEREIGNTY

1:13:09.818,1:13:11.553
IS AN IMPORTANT PRINCIPLE,

1:13:11.553,1:13:15.157
BUT WE SHOULD MAKE CLEAR THAT IT DOES NOT GO SO FAR

1:13:15.157,1:13:18.860
AS TO ALLOW GOVERNMENTS TO SLAUGHTER THEIR PEOPLE

1:13:18.860,1:13:22.798
AND THAT THAT IN ITSELF, THOSE ACTS IN ITSELF ABRIDGE SOVEREIGNTY.

1:13:22.798,1:13:25.100
AND IF YOU DO NOT DISCHARGE YOUR RESPONSIBILITY

1:13:25.100,1:13:28.370
AND YOU DON'T WELCOME HELP, YOU HAVE NO WILL,

1:13:28.370,1:13:30.405
WE WILL TAKE OTHER MEASURES.

1:13:30.405,1:13:35.077
AND THESE OTHER MEASURES WE NEED TO DEVELOP TO BE A CREDIBLE THREAT,

1:13:35.077,1:13:39.614
BUT MEANWHILE, I'M JUST DOING WHAT IS IN MY CAPACITY TO DO.

1:13:39.614,1:13:41.450
AND YOU'RE DOING IT WELL.

1:13:41.450,1:13:44.252
Goldhagen, voice-over: THERE ARE WELL-MEANING PEOPLE HERE TO BE SURE,

1:13:44.252,1:13:46.254
BUT I'M AFRAID THEY'RE PART OF AN INSTITUTION

1:13:46.254,1:13:49.458
THAT IS SET UP TO FAIL.

1:13:49.458,1:13:51.059
THE U.N. IS NOT THE SOLUTION,

1:13:51.059,1:13:53.228
AS ITS APPALLING RECORD SHOWS,

1:13:53.228,1:13:55.130
BUT I DO THINK WE CAN DESIGN A SYSTEM

1:13:55.130,1:14:00.068
THAT WILL EFFECTIVELY STOP OR PREVENT FUTURE GENOCIDES.

1:14:00.068,1:14:05.407
THE FIRST COMPONENT MUST BE SWIFT DIPLOMATIC INTERVENTION.

1:14:05.407,1:14:09.878
A RECENT EPISODE HERE IN KENYA MAY OFFER A PROMISING MODEL FOR THE FUTURE.

1:14:09.878,1:14:12.681
Man: WHAT WAS ONCE ONE OF AFRICA'S MOST STABLE DEMOCRACIES

1:14:12.681,1:14:15.917
IS RIGHT NOW ONE OF THE MOST VIOLENT PLACES IN THE WORLD.

1:14:15.917,1:14:19.321
EXTREME CHAOS FOLLOWING A DISPUTED ELECTION IN KENYA,

1:14:19.321,1:14:21.256
MOBS TORCHING A CHURCH WITH HUNDREDS

1:14:21.256,1:14:22.958
OF REFUGEES INSIDE.

1:14:22.958,1:14:25.527
WITNESSES SAY DOZENS OF PEOPLE, INCLUDING CHILDREN,

1:14:25.527,1:14:28.597
WERE BURNED ALIVE OR HACKED TO DEATH WITH MACHETES,

1:14:28.597,1:14:31.099
AND THERE ARE NEW FEARS TODAY THAT KENYA IS IN DANGER

1:14:31.099,1:14:37.005
OF BECOMING THE NEXT RWANDA.

1:14:37.005,1:14:40.142
Goldhagen: IN JANUARY 2008, A SPATE OF KILLINGS

1:14:40.142,1:14:44.646
FOLLOWED THE REELECTION OF KENYAN PRESIDENT MWAI KIBAKI.

1:14:44.646,1:14:46.648
Man: CLEARLY, I THINK, THE IMMEDIATE TRIGGER

1:14:46.648,1:14:50.252
FOR THAT VIOLENCE WAS THE DISPUTED ELECTION RESULTS THAT HAPPENED,

1:14:50.252,1:14:52.154
BUT BEYOND THAT, I THINK THERE WERE ALSO

1:14:52.154,1:14:54.656
OTHER UNDERLYING ISSUES THAT CAME TO THE FORE,

1:14:54.656,1:14:57.626
ISSUES OF DISCONTENTMENT, ISSUES OF MARGINALIZATION,

1:14:57.626,1:15:00.061
RIFTS BETWEEN ETHNIC GROUPS IN THE COUNTRY,

1:15:00.061,1:15:02.564
ISSUES OF LAND, ISSUES OF HISTORICAL INJUSTICES.

1:15:02.564,1:15:04.900
SO ALL THESE THINGS CAME UP TOGETHER,

1:15:04.900,1:15:06.801
AND I THINK THAT THE ELECTION RESULTS,

1:15:06.801,1:15:08.403
THE WAY IT WAS HANDLED, THE PROCESS,

1:15:08.403,1:15:10.038
WAS REALLY LIKE THE MATCH THAT WAS THROWN

1:15:10.038,1:15:11.072
INTO A BARREL OF OIL.

1:15:11.072,1:15:14.376
[SINGING IN NATIVE LANGUAGE]

1:15:14.376,1:15:17.879
Goldhagen: IN THE RIFT VALLEY, MEMBERS OF THE PRESIDENT'S TRIBE, THE KIKUYU,

1:15:17.879,1:15:19.414
WERE TARGETED.

1:15:19.414,1:15:21.616
1,500 OR MORE WERE KILLED,

1:15:21.616,1:15:31.960
HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS WERE EXPELLED FROM THEIR HOMES.

1:15:31.960,1:15:34.496
IF THE KIKUYU HAD TRIED TO HOLD THEIR GROUND,

1:15:34.496,1:15:36.498
WOULD THE VIOLENCE HAVE ESCALATED

1:15:36.498,1:15:38.433
TO PRODUCE DEATHS ON A MASSIVE SCALE?

1:15:38.433,1:15:40.635
ABSOLUTELY. I THINK THE KILLINGS

1:15:40.635,1:15:42.103
WOULD HAVE DEFINITELY INCREASED.

1:15:42.103,1:15:46.241
I THINK IT WOULD HAVE DRAWN IN, ALSO, MORE COMMUNITIES.

1:15:46.241,1:15:51.680
Goldhagen: WITHIN DAYS, FORMER U.N. SECRETARY GENERAL KOFI ANNAN HAD FLOWN TO NAIROBI

1:15:51.680,1:15:55.150
ALONG WITH REPRESENTATIVES OF OTHER AFRICAN COUNTRIES.

1:15:55.150,1:16:00.722
I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT THAT ALL KENYANS

1:16:00.722,1:16:05.393
RESPOND WITH SYMPATHY AND UNDERSTANDING

1:16:05.393,1:16:07.495
AND NOT TRY TO REVENGE.

1:16:07.495,1:16:10.665
Goldhagen: THE U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE CONDOLEEZZA RICE ARRIVED

1:16:10.665,1:16:12.067
SOON AFTER.

1:16:12.067,1:16:14.135
THEY CAME TO MEDIATE, TO PRESSURE,

1:16:14.135,1:16:15.737
AND WITH THREATS OF SANCTIONS.

1:16:15.737,1:16:17.505
Kiai: I DON'T THINK I'VE EVER SEEN IN AFRICA

1:16:17.505,1:16:20.609
SUCH INTENSE INTERNATIONAL ENGAGEMENT ON AN ISSUE,

1:16:20.609,1:16:23.245
AND THAT REALLY HELPED.

1:16:23.245,1:16:25.814
Goldhagen: THE LONG-TERM EFFECTS OF THE DIPLOMATIC INTERVENTION

1:16:25.814,1:16:28.116
IN KENYA REMAIN TO BE SEEN.

1:16:28.116,1:16:29.651
THE VIOLENCE STOPPED,

1:16:29.651,1:16:31.386
BUT THE RACISTS AND POLITICAL ROOTS

1:16:31.386,1:16:33.121
OF THE CONFLICT RUN DEEP,

1:16:33.121,1:16:35.190
AND KENYAN POLITICAL LEADERS COULD START UP

1:16:35.190,1:16:37.192
THE VIOLENCE AGAIN,

1:16:37.192,1:16:39.461
BUT THE IMMEDIATE RESPONSE OF WORLD LEADERS

1:16:39.461,1:16:43.031
WAS A POWERFUL STATEMENT AND THE KIND OF RAPID REACTION

1:16:43.031,1:16:49.004
THAT COULD SAVE MANY LIVES IN THE FUTURE.

1:16:49.004,1:16:52.274
DIPLOMACY OF COURSE DOES NOT ALWAYS WORK.

1:16:52.274,1:16:54.576
Christiane Amanpour: THE U.N. IS ACCUSING THE SUDANESE GOVERNMENT

1:16:54.576,1:16:58.980
OF RESUMING BOMBING RAIDS AGAINST REBELS IN SOUTH DARFUR,

1:16:58.980,1:17:02.250
AND IT ALSO SAYS THAT DISPLACED VILLAGERS LIKE THESE

1:17:02.250,1:17:07.022
ARE STILL BEING ATTACKED BY JANJAWEED MILITIA.

1:17:07.022,1:17:08.723
Goldhagen: WHEN THE SUDANESE GOVERNMENT WAS MURDERING

1:17:08.723,1:17:11.526
ITS OWN PEOPLE IN THE WESTERN REGION OF DARFUR,

1:17:11.526,1:17:16.831
WORLD LEADERS SENT ENVOYS TO KHARTOUM.

1:17:16.831,1:17:33.481
BUT THE OIL-RICH REGIME CARES LITTLE ABOUT WORLD OPINION.

1:17:33.481,1:17:34.849
THEY CONTINUE TO KILL,

1:17:34.849,1:17:41.589
AND THE WORLD HAS DONE NOTHING MEANINGFUL TO STOP THEM.

1:17:41.589,1:17:44.025
WE NEED TO STOP PROVING TO POLITICAL LEADERS

1:17:44.025,1:17:48.096
THAT WE WILL STAND BY AS THEY SLAUGHTER THEIR OWN PEOPLE.

1:17:48.096,1:17:51.333
IF DIPLOMACY FAILS, COUNTRIES COMMITTING MASS ELIMINATIONS

1:17:51.333,1:17:54.569
SUCH AS SUDAN HAVE TO BE KICKED OUT OF THE U.N.

1:17:54.569,1:17:57.439
AND ALL INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS,

1:17:57.439,1:18:00.675
AND ALL TRADE MUST BE CUT OFF.

1:18:00.675,1:18:03.411
LEADERS THAT CONTINUE TO KILL MUST KNOW THAT WE WILL

1:18:03.411,1:18:10.485
SWIFTLY AND FORCEFULLY DESTROY THEIR MILITARY CAPABILITY.

1:18:10.485,1:18:13.421
Felde: SOME PEOPLE HAVE TALKED ABOUT SOME KIND OF RAPID RESPONSE FORCE.

1:18:13.421,1:18:16.157
I WOULD OF COURSE BE FOR INTERVENTION,

1:18:16.157,1:18:19.027
MILITARY INTERVENTION WHEN PEOPLE ARE BEING SLAUGHTERED.

1:18:19.027,1:18:21.529
IT SEEMS QUITE OBVIOUS THAT HAVING SOME KIND OF FORCE

1:18:21.529,1:18:24.232
THAT COULD INTERVENE RAPIDLY AND EFFECTIVELY

1:18:24.232,1:18:26.067
IN MANY OF THE COUNTRIES WHERE IT DOESN'T TAKE

1:18:26.067,1:18:28.036
A GREAT DEAL OF FORCE TO STOP THESE THINGS

1:18:28.036,1:18:31.039
IS AN ABSOLUTE MORAL AND POLITICAL NECESSITY.

1:18:31.039,1:18:36.177
SOME WOULD SAY THAT IF WE'RE GOING TO INTERVENE MILITARILY IN DARFUR

1:18:36.177,1:18:37.345
WHAT ABOUT CONGO?

1:18:37.345,1:18:38.513
CERTAINLY, MORE PEOPLE HAVE DIED THERE

1:18:38.513,1:18:39.714
IN THE PAST 10 YEARS.

1:18:39.714,1:18:41.483
SO PERHAPS THEN YOU'RE SUGGESTING

1:18:41.483,1:18:43.351
WE SHOULD INTERVENE THERE, AS WELL.

1:18:43.351,1:18:47.055
THESE KINDS OF ARGUMENTS I ALSO FIND UNPERSUASIVE.

1:18:47.055,1:18:49.357
IT IS QUITE TRUE THAT THE UNITED STATES IS NOT

1:18:49.357,1:18:50.492
THE POLICEMAN OF THE WORLD,

1:18:50.492,1:18:51.893
EVEN THOUGH IT IS THE GUARANTOR

1:18:51.893,1:18:53.661
OF MUCH OF ORDER IN THE WORLD.

1:18:53.661,1:18:55.864
IT REMAINS THAT, BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN

1:18:55.864,1:18:57.599
THAT IF INTERVENING IN DARFUR IS

1:18:57.599,1:18:59.768
THE RIGHT THING TO DO TO SAVE LIVES

1:18:59.768,1:19:02.570
THAT WE SHOULD NOT DO IT BECAUSE WE CAN'T INTERVENE EVERYWHERE.

1:19:02.570,1:19:06.174
I DON'T FIND THE ARGUMENTS AGAIN PERSUASIVE THAT,

1:19:06.174,1:19:09.310
WELL, YOU SHOULDN'T DO SOMETHING BECAUSE YOU CAN'T DO EVERYTHING.

1:19:09.310,1:19:12.180
OUR PROBLEM IS THAT WE DO LITTLE OR NOTHING AT ALL.

1:19:12.180,1:19:13.882
Silajdzic: THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY MUST HAVE

1:19:13.882,1:19:19.821
A MECHANISM THAT WILL QUICKLY REACT TO GENOCIDE.

1:19:19.821,1:19:21.389
THERE IS NO WAITING THERE,

1:19:21.389,1:19:23.892
THERE IS NO OTHER CONSIDERATION.

1:19:23.892,1:19:25.960
HUMAN LIFE MUST BE SAVED.

1:19:25.960,1:19:27.862
WE MUST ALL AGREE TO THIS.

1:19:27.862,1:19:29.864
IF THERE IS MASS KILLING SOMEWHERE,

1:19:29.864,1:19:32.167
THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY HAS THE RIGHT

1:19:32.167,1:19:37.205
TO INTERVENE.

1:19:37.205,1:19:40.642
YOU KNOW, WHEN IT BECOMES TOO LATE, IT'S TOO LATE.

1:19:40.642,1:19:43.178
Man: IN MANY INSTANCES, DIPLOMATIC EFFORTS

1:19:43.178,1:19:44.879
ARE GONNA BE UNSUCCESSFUL,

1:19:44.879,1:19:47.148
PARTICULARLY ONCE THE KILLING STARTS.

1:19:47.148,1:19:48.783
THE ONLY WAY YOU ARE GONNA STOP THAT

1:19:48.783,1:19:50.652
IS THROUGH THE USE OF MILITARY FORCE,

1:19:50.652,1:19:52.687
BUT IT'S GONNA BE VERY DIFFICULT

1:19:52.687,1:19:57.091
TO GET A WIDE CONSORTIUM OF COUNTRIES TO AGREE

1:19:57.091,1:19:58.293
THAT THERE'S AN AUTOMATIC TRIGGER

1:19:58.293,1:20:00.128
FOR MILITARY INTERVENTION.

1:20:00.128,1:20:04.065
IN DARFUR, YOU NEED AFRICAN GOVERNMENTS ON BOARD,

1:20:04.065,1:20:06.267
YOU NEED MIDDLE EASTERN GOVERNMENTS ON BOARD.

1:20:06.267,1:20:07.902
THIS HAS PROVED VERY DIFFICULT TO ACCOMPLISH.

1:20:07.902,1:20:11.206
YOU KNOW, I'M NOT A DIPLOMAT, AND I SAY WHY?

1:20:11.206,1:20:12.740
WHY DO WE NEED THEM ON BOARD?

1:20:12.740,1:20:17.745
I MEAN, YOU HAVE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE BEING SLAUGHTERED.

1:20:17.745,1:20:20.281
WHY DO WE NEED TO GET MIDDLE EASTERN GOVERNMENTS

1:20:20.281,1:20:21.549
OR AFRICAN GOVERNMENTS ON BOARD?

1:20:21.549,1:20:23.985
WHY NOT CREATE A NO-FLY ZONE,

1:20:23.985,1:20:26.020
WHY NOT BOMB THEIR MILITARY INSTALLATIONS?

1:20:26.020,1:20:27.689
FORGET ABOUT THE DIPLOMACY FOR A MINUTE.

1:20:27.689,1:20:31.926
WOULD IT BE EFFECTIVE, AND THEN HOW DO WE WEIGH IF IT WOULD BE

1:20:31.926,1:20:34.863
THE MORALITY OF IT VERSUS THE DIPLOMACY OF IT?

1:20:34.863,1:20:37.298
FROM THE MORAL PERSPECTIVE, YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

1:20:37.298,1:20:38.733
I MEAN, WE DO HAVE A MORAL OBLIGATION.

1:20:38.733,1:20:41.736
IF WE'RE IN A POSITION TO ACT

1:20:41.736,1:20:44.772
AND WE HAVE THE ACTUAL CAPABILITY TO DO SO,

1:20:44.772,1:20:46.274
THEN I THINK WE SHOULD,

1:20:46.274,1:20:48.676
BUT IF YOU HAVE A SITUATION WHERE YOU'RE

1:20:48.676,1:20:51.946
NOT ABLE TO GET SUPPORT OF OTHER GOVERNMENTS,

1:20:51.946,1:20:54.449
IT MAY BE COUNTERPRODUCTIVE.

1:20:54.449,1:20:55.984
Goldhagen: GETTING THE SUPPORT OF OTHER GOVERNMENTS

1:20:55.984,1:20:58.553
SOUNDS GOOD, BUT AS HARIS SILAJDZIC

1:20:58.553,1:21:01.422
EXPERIENCED DURING THE DAYS OF THE BOSNIAN GENOCIDE,

1:21:01.422,1:21:03.691
CONVINCING LEADERS TO INTERVENE MILITARILY

1:21:03.691,1:21:05.727
IS EXTRAORDINARILY DIFFICULT.

1:21:05.727,1:21:08.363
WHAT WAS IT LIKE FOR YOU TRYING TO MOBILIZE

1:21:08.363,1:21:11.633
THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, THE POLITICAL LEADERS

1:21:11.633,1:21:14.269
OF THE EUROPEAN COUNTRIES, OF THE UNITED STATES,

1:21:14.269,1:21:17.639
THE U.N., AND SO ON TO DO SOMETHING?

1:21:17.639,1:21:22.176
WELL, THAT IS VERY FRUSTRATING, THE POWERLESSNESS,

1:21:22.176,1:21:23.745
VERY FRUSTRATING.

1:21:23.745,1:21:25.880
IT'S HARD TO MOVE THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY

1:21:25.880,1:21:27.549
TO REALLY DO SOMETHING.

1:21:27.549,1:21:32.287
IT'S THE PHILOSOPHY OF, UH...

1:21:32.287,1:21:35.657
THE LEAST RESISTANCE.

1:21:35.657,1:21:40.595
"LET'S DO THE EASIEST THING IN THE WORLD, SO LET'S WAIT.

1:21:40.595,1:21:45.500
MAYBE IT WILL GO AWAY."

1:21:45.500,1:21:47.936
Goldhagen: AS WE HAVE SEEN TIME AND AGAIN,

1:21:47.936,1:21:51.205
WHEN WE WAIT TO INTERVENE, PROBLEMS DON'T GO AWAY.

1:21:51.205,1:22:00.682
THEY ONLY GET WORSE.

1:22:00.682,1:22:02.850
THIS IS THE STORY OF ANOTHER MASS MURDER

1:22:02.850,1:22:05.987
THAT DIDN'T HAVE TO HAPPEN.

1:22:05.987,1:22:09.223
BY THE TIME IT DID, THE ELIMINATION OF BOSNIA'S MUSLIMS

1:22:09.223,1:22:11.459
HAD BEEN GOING ON FOR 3 YEARS.

1:22:11.459,1:22:14.362
THE OUTSIDE WORLD KNEW WHAT THE SERBS WERE UP TO,

1:22:14.362,1:22:16.064
WE KNEW WE COULD STOP IT,

1:22:16.064,1:22:21.536
AND DAY AFTER DAY, WE CHOSE NOT TO TAKE EFFECTIVE MEASURES.

1:22:21.536,1:22:24.205
IN 1995, THE CITY OF SREBRENICA,

1:22:24.205,1:22:28.443
DESIGNATED A SAFE HAVEN FOR BOSNIAN MUSLIMS BY THE UNITED NATIONS,

1:22:28.443,1:22:31.679
FELL TO SERB FORCES.

1:22:31.679,1:22:36.351
WITHIN DAYS, THE SERBS KILLED 8,000.

1:22:36.351,1:22:39.354
EACH YEAR, SOME OF THE VICTIMS EXHUMED FROM MASS GRAVES

1:22:39.354,1:22:42.690
ARE POSITIVELY IDENTIFIED AND GIVEN A PROPER BURIAL

1:22:42.690,1:22:50.198
ON THE ANNIVERSARY OF THE MASSACRE.

1:22:50.198,1:22:53.101
AS SREBRENICA FELL, THE MUSLIMS SOUGHT REFUGE

1:22:53.101,1:22:56.037
SEVERAL MILES AWAY AT THIS FACTORY COMPLEX,

1:22:56.037,1:22:57.572
WHICH SERVED AS THE HEADQUARTERS

1:22:57.572,1:23:13.021
OF A SMALL U.N. PEACEKEEPING FORCE.

1:23:13.021,1:23:15.456
Sudetic: YOU HAD 25,000 PEOPLE,

1:23:15.456,1:23:20.228
MANY OF THEM ELDERLY, WOMEN, AND CHILDREN

1:23:20.228,1:23:29.370
GATHERED IN THE YARD AROUND THIS BASE, SEEKING PROTECTION.

1:23:29.370,1:23:33.341
AND I THINK AT THAT TIME THERE WERE APPROXIMATELY 300 DUTCH TROOPS THERE,

1:23:33.341,1:23:35.043
FAR, FAR BELOW ANYTHING THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN

1:23:35.043,1:23:38.212
A CREDIBLE DETERRENT TO ANY KIND

1:23:38.212,1:23:57.865
OF MILITARY ACTION ON THE GROUND.

1:23:57.865,1:23:59.834
Goldhagen: AFTER THEY CAPTURED SREBRENICA,

1:23:59.834,1:24:05.740
SERB SOLDIERS UNDER THE COMMAND OF THE NOTORIOUS MASS MURDERER GENERAL RATKO MLADIC ARRIVED

1:24:05.740,1:24:18.252
AT THE U.N. BASE TO DEAL WITH THE MUSLIM REFUGEES.

1:24:18.252,1:24:20.688
[CHILDREN CRYING]

1:24:20.688,1:24:22.690
Sudetic: AFTER A NIGHT OF TERROR,

1:24:22.690,1:24:24.892
THE SERBS ANNOUNCED THAT THEY WERE GOING TO BE

1:24:24.892,1:24:30.298
TRANSPORTED TO FRIENDLY LINES IN BUSES, DON'T BE AFRAID.

1:24:30.298,1:24:33.000
THEY BROUGHT COOKIES FOR CHILDREN.

1:24:33.000,1:24:41.409
[SPEAKING NATIVE LANGUAGE]

1:24:41.409,1:24:46.414
THE SERBS SEPARATE THE MILITARY AGE MEN.

1:24:46.414,1:24:50.451
WHAT THAT MEANT WAS PRETTY MUCH ANYBODY 12 AND ABOVE TO ONE SIDE,

1:24:50.451,1:24:53.121
AND THEN THE WOMEN AND CHILDREN AND THE OLDER PEOPLE

1:24:53.121,1:26:41.128
TO THE OTHER.

1:26:41.128,1:26:42.930
Goldhagen: THIS IS HOW EASY IT WOULD HAVE BEEN

1:26:42.930,1:26:45.066
TO SAVE THE LIVES OF SABAHETA'S SON

1:26:45.066,1:26:47.668
AND 8,000 OTHERS IN SREBRENICA.

1:26:47.668,1:26:50.204
Woman: EARLY MORNING RAIDS OF MORE THAN 60 AIRCRAFT

1:26:50.204,1:26:54.008
FROM AS MANY AS 5 NATIONS POUNDED AIR DEFENSE MISSILES...

1:26:54.008,1:26:57.578
Goldhagen: IN AUGUST 1995, TWO MONTHS AFTER THE EXPULSION

1:26:57.578,1:27:00.081
AND MASS MURDER IN SREBRENICA

1:27:00.081,1:27:03.584
AND 3 YEARS AFTER THE GENOCIDE BEGAN,

1:27:03.584,1:27:06.087
NATO FORCES BEGAN A BOMBING CAMPAIGN

1:27:06.087,1:27:08.923
AGAINST SERBIAN MILITARY TARGETS.

1:27:08.923,1:27:10.858
IN JUST 3 WEEKS, THE BOMBING CHANGED

1:27:10.858,1:27:13.661
MILOSEVIC'S CALCULATIONS.

1:27:13.661,1:27:16.163
IN SHORT ORDER, SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC WAS

1:27:16.163,1:27:19.066
AT THE NEGOTIATING TABLE, DISCUSSING THE PEACE TREATY

1:27:19.066,1:27:21.969
THAT WOULD END HIS DEPREDATIONS IN BOSNIA.

1:27:21.969,1:27:24.839
THE BOSNIAN GENOCIDE WAS OVER.

1:27:24.839,1:27:26.540
LET'S TURN THE CLOCK BACK.

1:27:26.540,1:27:31.045
WHAT HAPPENS IF IN 1992 NATO STARTED TO BOMB

1:27:31.045,1:27:33.781
AND NOT WAITED UNTIL 1995 TO DO SO?

1:27:33.781,1:27:38.753
OH, THAT WOULD HAVE STOPPED EVERYTHING DEFINITELY.

1:27:38.753,1:27:42.356
WE WOULD HAVE SAVED THE LIVES OF 100,000 PEOPLE?

1:27:42.356,1:27:44.492
NOT ONLY THAT. THE CREDIBILITY

1:27:44.492,1:27:46.427
OF THE INTERNATIONAL ORDER,

1:27:46.427,1:27:49.363
THE CREDIBILITY OF JUSTICE,

1:27:49.363,1:27:52.566
THE CREDIBILITY OF HUMANITY.

1:27:52.566,1:28:10.751
THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN SAVED.

1:28:10.751,1:28:12.386
Goldhagen: THE PERPETRATORS OF ELIMINATION

1:28:12.386,1:28:16.557
ALMOST ALWAYS ACT WITH TOTAL IMPUNITY.

1:28:16.557,1:28:22.463
HERE IN GUATEMALA, A GENOCIDAL MASTERMIND WALKS FREELY.

1:28:22.463,1:28:28.069
IN FACT, HE CONTINUES TO SERVE IN THE COUNTRY'S CONGRESS.

1:28:28.069,1:28:31.339
[SPEAKS SPANISH]

1:28:31.339,1:28:34.208
Goldhagen, voice-over: AT THE TIME THIS KILLER COMMITTED HIS CRIMES,

1:28:34.208,1:28:36.811
HE BELIEVED HE WOULD GET AWAY WITH MURDER.

1:28:36.811,1:28:57.298
SO FAR, HE'S BEEN PROVEN RIGHT.

1:28:57.298,1:28:59.967
JOSÉ EFRAÍN RÍOS MONTT LED THIS COUNTRY

1:28:59.967,1:29:02.670
FOR NEARLY TWO TERRIFYING YEARS,

1:29:02.670,1:29:05.539
DURING WHICH HE WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR A WIDESPREAD CAMPAIGN

1:29:05.539,1:29:10.711
OF TERROR AND SLAUGHTER.

1:29:10.711,1:29:13.848
I WANTED TO GET A LOOK AT THIS MAN IN PERSON,

1:29:13.848,1:29:16.017
AND I HOPED OTILIA LUX DE COTI

1:29:16.017,1:29:17.852
A MEMBER OF GUATEMALA'S CONGRESS,

1:29:17.852,1:29:18.919
WOULD HELP.

1:29:18.919,1:29:56.757
HI. NICE TO MEET YOU.

1:29:56.757,1:30:01.695
Doyle: THE RÍOS MONTT PLAN FOR 1982 WAS CALLED VICTORIA.

1:30:01.695,1:30:06.367
THESE ARE PLANS THAT LAY OUT THE BROAD STRATEGY

1:30:06.367,1:30:09.403
OF HOW THE ARMY WAS GOING TO DESTROY COMMUNISM

1:30:09.403,1:30:11.405
AND WIPE OUT THE GUERRILLAS,

1:30:11.405,1:30:14.141
AND THE PLANS ARE VERY EXPLICIT ABOUT THE NEED

1:30:14.141,1:30:19.580
TO GO INTO THE MAYAN COMMUNITIES AND DESTROY THEM.

1:30:19.580,1:30:22.016
THEY CONTAIN OPERATIONAL ORDERS

1:30:22.016,1:30:23.184
TO GO INTO CERTAIN VILLAGES,

1:30:23.184,1:30:25.953
WHICH WERE, IN FACT, MASSACRED AND RAZED,

1:30:25.953,1:30:30.958
AND AFTER ACTION REPORTS IN WHICH THE COMMANDERS OF THOSE UNITS SAY,

1:30:30.958,1:30:33.694
"DUTY DONE. WE'VE, UH--WE'VE

1:30:33.694,1:30:35.229
"COMPLETED THE OPERATION,

1:30:35.229,1:30:37.431
AND THE VILLAGE IS"--

1:30:37.431,1:30:40.801
UM, WHAT ARE SOME OF THE WORDS THEY USED?

1:30:40.801,1:30:42.369
"ELIMINATED." "THE VILLAGE IS ELIMINATED.

1:30:42.369,1:30:44.605
THE VILLAGE IS NEUTRALIZED."

1:30:44.605,1:30:47.007
[SPEAKING SPANISH]

1:30:47.007,1:30:48.943
Goldhagen: OTILIA LUX DE COTI IS TAKING ME

1:30:48.943,1:30:50.778
INTO THE HALLS OF CONGRESS,

1:30:50.778,1:30:55.749
WHERE THE FORMER DICTATOR MAINTAINS A POWERFUL PRESENCE.

1:30:55.749,1:30:57.718
IN THE ROUGH AND TUMBLE OF POLITICS,

1:30:57.718,1:30:59.553
THE CONGRESSWOMAN WORKS SIDE BY SIDE

1:30:59.553,1:31:01.589
WITH THE MAN RESPONSIBLE FOR THE MURDER

1:31:01.589,1:31:17.872
OF NEARLY 200,000 OF HER PEOPLE.

1:31:17.872,1:31:21.075
SEEING RÍOS MONTT IN THIS SETTING IS SURREAL.

1:31:21.075,1:31:25.679
IT'S LIKE ENCOUNTERING HITLER IN THE BUNDESTAG.

1:31:25.679,1:31:29.383
I HAVE STUDIED MASS MURDERERS FOR MORE THAN 3 DECADES,

1:31:29.383,1:31:31.752
BUT IT NEVER OCCURRED TO ME THAT I MIGHT ONE DAY STAND

1:31:31.752,1:31:37.124
BEFORE A GENOCIDAL MASTERMIND FACE TO FACE.

1:31:37.124,1:31:45.399
[SPEAKING SPANISH]

1:31:45.399,1:31:47.401
MAY I ASK YOU A QUESTION?

1:31:47.401,1:31:49.637
WAS THERE GENOCIDE IN GUATEMALA, AND WERE YOU RESPONSIBLE?

1:31:49.637,1:32:11.192
[SPEAKING SPANISH]

1:32:11.192,1:32:23.137
[SPEAKING SPANISH]

1:32:23.137,1:32:26.974
THE U.N. LAWS AND INTERNATIONAL CODES

1:32:26.974,1:32:31.845
HAVE A CONCEPT FOR GENOCIDE.

1:32:31.845,1:32:36.784
IT'S CLEARLY DEFINED.

1:32:36.784,1:32:41.889
WHEN YOU'RE GOING TO ELIMINATE AN ETHNICAL GROUP...

1:32:41.889,1:32:45.359
WHEN YOU'RE GOING TO ELIMINATE A RELIGIOUS GROUP...

1:32:45.359,1:32:55.736
OR A SPECIFIC GROUP OF PEOPLE.

1:32:55.736,1:32:58.806
THE DEFINITION CLEARLY STATES IT'S ELIMINATING SOMETHING.

1:32:58.806,1:33:02.910
THE DEFINITION STATES, ELIMINATING IN WHOLE OR IN PART

1:33:02.910,1:33:16.523
AN ETHNIC GROUP, WHICH THE MAYAN PEOPLE WERE.

1:33:16.523,1:33:18.225
HE AGREES WITH THAT.

1:33:18.225,1:33:24.798
AND SO WERE YOU RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS?

1:33:24.798,1:33:29.136
HE WOULD BE IN JAIL IF HE WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT.

1:33:29.136,1:33:30.971
Goldhagen, voice-over: I DON'T KNOW WHAT I WAS EXPECTING

1:33:30.971,1:33:33.073
BUT NOT THIS.

1:33:33.073,1:33:36.176
THE FORMER DICTATOR WAS EVASIVE AND COMBATIVE,

1:33:36.176,1:33:37.911
BUT REMARKABLY, HE STAYED TO TALK

1:33:37.911,1:33:39.880
FOR MORE THAN 20 MINUTES.

1:33:39.880,1:33:41.615
DO YOU ACCEPT THE HISTORICAL COMMISSION'S FINDING

1:33:41.615,1:33:45.352
THAT 200,000 INDIGENOUS MAYANS WERE KILLED

1:33:45.352,1:33:59.066
WHILE YOU WERE PRESIDENT BY YOUR MILITARY?

1:33:59.066,1:34:00.501
HE SAID THAT YOU SHOULD TAKE PROOF

1:34:00.501,1:34:06.240
AND CONVINCE HIM IN A COURT OF LAW.

1:34:06.240,1:34:08.275
STARING INTO THE EYES OF THIS KILLER,

1:34:08.275,1:34:12.279
I FEEL OUTRAGE AND DISGUST,

1:34:12.279,1:34:14.715
BUT MORE THAN ANYTHING, I AM REMINDED

1:34:14.715,1:34:17.551
THAT ALL OF THIS COMES DOWN TO A CHOICE.

1:34:17.551,1:34:21.388
MORE THAN 25 YEARS AGO AS THE POLITICAL LEADER OF HIS COUNTRY,

1:34:21.388,1:34:23.991
THIS MAN CONSIDERED HIS POLITICAL GOALS,

1:34:23.991,1:34:27.728
WEIGHED HIS OPTIONS, DECIDED HE COULD GET AWAY WITH IT,

1:34:27.728,1:34:30.831
AND MADE A CALCULATED DECISION TO MURDER AND EXPEL

1:34:30.831,1:34:34.468
HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF HIS COUNTRY'S PEOPLE.

1:34:34.468,1:34:39.740
THE QUESTION IS CAN WE GET FUTURE LEADERS TO MAKE A DIFFERENT DECISION?

1:34:39.740,1:34:47.247
I THINK WE CAN.

1:34:47.247,1:34:48.615
Woman: YOU KNOW, DANNY, YOU MIGHT BE SUGGESTING

1:34:48.615,1:34:50.584
WE CAN PREVENT ONE OF THE FEW THINGS IN THE WORLD

1:34:50.584,1:34:52.753
THAT PEOPLE SAY ARE UNSTOPPABLE

1:34:52.753,1:34:55.322
OR THAT WE HAVEN'T SEEMED TO BE ABLE TO STOP.

1:34:55.322,1:34:57.591
DO YOU THINK PEOPLE WILL JUST SAY,

1:34:57.591,1:35:00.027
"COME ON, DANNY. THAT'S--THAT'S NOT GONNA HAPPEN.

1:35:00.027,1:35:01.729
"IT'S NOT JUST ONE PERSON.

1:35:01.729,1:35:04.598
"WE'VE BEEN SCREAMING ABOUT THESE ISSUES FOR A LONG TIME,

1:35:04.598,1:35:07.601
AND THE LEADERS OF THE WORLD HAVEN'T LISTENED."

1:35:07.601,1:35:10.270
THE POLITICAL LEADERS WHO KILL OTHER PEOPLE

1:35:10.270,1:35:13.407
ARE OFTEN HATE-FILLED, POSSESSED BY IDEOLOGIES

1:35:13.407,1:35:15.342
THAT LEAD THEM TO SEE GROUPS OF PEOPLE

1:35:15.342,1:35:17.177
AS NECESSARY TO SLAUGHTER,

1:35:17.177,1:35:19.880
BUT THEY ARE NOT CRAZY.

1:35:19.880,1:35:24.918
THEY ARE RATIONAL CALCULATORS OF COSTS AND BENEFITS.

1:35:24.918,1:35:25.986
AFTER ALL, THESE PEOPLE HAVE RISEN

1:35:25.986,1:35:27.855
TO THE PINNACLE OF POWER IN THEIR COUNTRIES,

1:35:27.855,1:35:29.256
AND SO WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS THINK

1:35:29.256,1:35:33.961
ABOUT THEIR COST-BENEFIT CALCULUS.

1:35:33.961,1:35:36.196
LIKE RÍOS MONTT, ALL POLITICAL LEADERS

1:35:36.196,1:35:39.266
WHO INITIATE GENOCIDES AND ELIMINATIONS

1:35:39.266,1:35:41.168
KNOW THAT THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY

1:35:41.168,1:35:44.838
IS UNLIKELY TO INTERFERE WITH THEIR DEADLY PLANS.

1:35:44.838,1:35:48.609
Woman: THIS IS CASE NUMBER IT-95-5/18-I,

1:35:48.609,1:35:51.044
THE PROSECUTOR VERSUS RADOVAN KARADZIC.

1:35:51.044,1:35:52.713
Goldhagen: WE HAVE INTERNATIONAL COURTS,

1:35:52.713,1:35:54.415
AND THEY DO SOME GOOD,

1:35:54.415,1:35:57.718
BUT THEY ARE UNBEARABLY SLOW AND INEFFECTIVE...

1:35:57.718,1:35:59.386
Man: GOOD AFTERNOON, YOUR HONOR.

1:35:59.386,1:36:04.625
AND THE KILLING CONTINUES.

1:36:04.625,1:36:08.162
SO WHAT SHOULD WE DO?

1:36:08.162,1:36:10.464
FROM THE TRAGEDIES IN RWANDA AND ELSEWHERE,

1:36:10.464,1:36:12.733
WE'VE SEEN THAT THE INSTITUTIONS WE RELY ON

1:36:12.733,1:36:15.536
TO COMBAT GENOCIDE DON'T WORK,

1:36:15.536,1:36:18.705
AND IT'S CLEAR THAT AS IN KENYA TIMELY INTERVENTION

1:36:18.705,1:36:20.307
CAN GET POLITICAL LEADERS

1:36:20.307,1:36:24.178
TO STOP THE ELIMINATIONIST ASSAULT.

1:36:24.178,1:36:27.648
IN DEALING WITH A RECALCITRANT GENOCIDAL LEADER IN DARFUR,

1:36:27.648,1:36:30.083
WE'VE LEARNED THAT TO BE EFFECTIVE

1:36:30.083,1:36:33.520
INTERVENTION MUST OFTEN BE FORCEFUL

1:36:33.520,1:36:36.290
AND THAT, AS WAS THE CASE IN BOSNIA,

1:36:36.290,1:36:42.296
RELATIVELY LITTLE FORCE CAN ACHIEVE EXTRAORDINARY RESULTS,

1:36:42.296,1:36:46.066
AND WE KNOW ABOVE ALL THAT GENOCIDES ARE POLITICAL

1:36:46.066,1:36:48.569
AND THEY ARE INITIATED BY A FEW LEADERS

1:36:48.569,1:36:54.074
WHOSE COST-BENEFIT CALCULATIONS CAN BE CHANGED.

1:36:54.074,1:36:57.778
WE NEED TO CHANGE THAT CALCULATION.

1:36:57.778,1:37:00.347
Goldhagen: DO WE NEED TO HAVE A NEW INTERNATIONAL ORIENTATION

1:37:00.347,1:37:02.916
TOWARDS INTERVENTION AND GENOCIDE?

1:37:02.916,1:37:04.251
DEFINITELY.

1:37:04.251,1:37:05.619
HOW WOULD YOU REWRITE THE RULES

1:37:05.619,1:37:09.423
OF THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY ON THIS?

1:37:09.423,1:37:15.128
FIRST, GENOCIDE NEVER HAPPENS AS A SURPRISE.

1:37:15.128,1:37:19.867
NEVER.

1:37:19.867,1:37:25.506
THE SIGNS ARE USUALLY AVAILABLE AND APPARENT,

1:37:25.506,1:37:30.410
AND SO THERE SHOULD BE A DEBATE

1:37:30.410,1:37:34.248
AT THE U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL,

1:37:34.248,1:37:37.317
AT THE LEVEL OF THE EUROPEAN UNION,

1:37:37.317,1:37:38.652
AT THE LEVEL OF AFRICAN UNION,

1:37:38.652,1:37:43.290
OR OTHER POWERBROKERS

1:37:43.290,1:37:48.095
TO SET UNDER WHICH CIRCUMSTANCES

1:37:48.095,1:37:52.533
INTERVENTION WOULD BE DEEMED NECESSARY.

1:37:52.533,1:37:55.569
SO YOU DON'T WAIT UNTIL IT HAS HAPPENED.

1:37:55.569,1:37:57.838
THERE MUST BE PREVENTIVE MEASURES.

1:37:57.838,1:38:01.775
SO I THINK WE SHOULD GO BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD.

1:38:01.775,1:38:04.444
Goldhagen, voice-over: BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD INDEED.

1:38:04.444,1:38:08.582
GIVEN EVERYTHING I'VE SEEN AND STUDIED, THIS MUCH IS CLEAR.

1:38:08.582,1:38:12.953
INSTEAD OF THE U.N., WE NEED AN INTERNATIONAL WATCHDOG ORGANIZATION

1:38:12.953,1:38:16.123
MADE UP OF DEMOCRATIC NATIONS THAT WILL ENFORCE

1:38:16.123,1:38:22.462
A ZERO TOLERANCE POLICY ON GENOCIDE AND ELIMINATIONISM.

1:38:22.462,1:38:25.499
EACH OF THE MEMBERS MUST HAVE THE RIGHT TO INTERVENE

1:38:25.499,1:38:27.534
INDIVIDUALLY OR COLLECTIVELY

1:38:27.534,1:38:30.704
TO STOP CAMPAIGNS OF ELIMINATION,

1:38:30.704,1:38:33.774
BUT INTERVENTION, EVEN FORCEFUL INTERVENTION,

1:38:33.774,1:38:35.375
IS NOT ENOUGH.

1:38:35.375,1:38:36.910
BY THE TIME WE INTERVENE,

1:38:36.910,1:38:39.947
TENS OF THOUSANDS CAN BE DEAD OR HOMELESS.

1:38:39.947,1:38:43.617
WE NEED AN EFFECTIVE SYSTEM OF PREVENTION.

1:38:43.617,1:38:46.353
WE'VE GOT TO STOP GENOCIDES BEFORE THEY HAPPEN

1:38:46.353,1:38:48.889
BY SHOWING POLITICAL LEADERS THAT THE COSTS TO THEM

1:38:48.889,1:38:53.493
WILL FOR SURE FAR OUTWEIGH THE BENEFITS.

1:38:53.493,1:38:56.196
THE U.S. HAS A BOUNTY PROGRAM FOR GETTING PEOPLE

1:38:56.196,1:38:58.031
TO HUNT DOWN TERRORISTS.

1:38:58.031,1:39:00.167
WHY NOT HAVE DEMOCRATIC COUNTRIES DO THE SAME

1:39:00.167,1:39:03.804
FOR LEADERS WHO PERPETRATE GENOCIDES AND ELIMINATIONS?

1:39:03.804,1:39:06.273
LET'S SAY FOR EXAMPLE, THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY

1:39:06.273,1:39:09.176
DECLARED THE LEADERS OF COUNTRIES THAT COMMIT GENOCIDE

1:39:09.176,1:39:10.344
TO BE OUTLAWS.

1:39:10.344,1:39:13.547
THEY CAN BE HUNTED DOWN UNTIL THEY EITHER

1:39:13.547,1:39:16.116
GIVE THEMSELVES UP OR UNTIL THEY'RE KILLED.

1:39:16.116,1:39:17.751
WOULD MILOSEVIC UNDER THESE CIRCUMSTANCES

1:39:17.751,1:39:22.155
HAVE EVER INITIATED THE SLAUGHTER OF BOSNIANS?

1:39:22.155,1:39:23.657
I DON'T THINK HE WOULD.

1:39:23.657,1:39:29.162
HE COUNTED WITH POWERFUL FRIENDS

1:39:29.162,1:39:32.232
AND MOST OF ALL WITH THE FACTUAL SITUATION

1:39:32.232,1:39:34.267
ON THE GROUND, KNOWING THAT

1:39:34.267,1:39:38.939
THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY IS IN LOVE WITH THE STATUS QUO.

1:39:38.939,1:39:42.509
WE MUST SHOW THAT IT DOESN'T PAY.

1:39:42.509,1:39:48.248
IF PEOPLE KNEW THAT AT THE END OF THE DAY

1:39:48.248,1:39:50.517
THEY'D BE THE LOSERS,

1:39:50.517,1:39:53.286
THEY WOULD NEVER INVEST

1:39:53.286,1:39:55.188
IN A LOSING ENTERPRISE.

1:39:55.188,1:39:57.391
IT'S BECAUSE GENOCIDE IS A POLITICAL GAME,

1:39:57.391,1:39:59.526
IT'S A POWER PLAY, IT'S WORSE,

1:39:59.526,1:40:01.995
IT'S EVERYTHING.

1:40:01.995,1:40:07.300
IF PEOPLE INVOLVED IN KNEW AT THE END OF THE DAY

1:40:07.300,1:40:08.802
THEY'D BE THE LOSERS,

1:40:08.802,1:40:13.674
THEY WOULD NOT PLAY THE GAME, THAT'S FOR SURE.

1:40:13.674,1:40:15.409
Goldhagen: WHAT IS THE ALTERNATIVE TO DEALING

1:40:15.409,1:40:17.944
FORCEFULLY WITH GENOCIDAL LEADERS?

1:40:17.944,1:40:19.579
THE STATUS QUO,

1:40:19.579,1:40:26.286
MORE MASS MURDER, MORE LIVES DESTROYED.

1:40:26.286,1:40:30.323
THE KEY TO STOPPING GENOCIDE IS TO FOCUS ON THE LEADERS.

1:40:30.323,1:40:34.361
THE KEY TO GETTING US TO ACT IS TO IDENTIFY WITH THE VICTIMS,

1:40:34.361,1:40:36.663
TO THINK OF EACH ONE AS IF HE OR SHE WERE

1:40:36.663,1:40:40.100
YOUR DAUGHTER OR SON, YOUR SISTER OR BROTHER,

1:40:40.100,1:40:42.102
YOUR MOTHER OR YOUR FATHER.

1:40:42.102,1:40:48.241
WE'RE GONNA "T" INTO CAR--CAR-- CARMEN--

1:40:48.241,1:40:49.576
I DON'T KNOW HOW TO READ IT.

1:40:49.576,1:40:51.878
Goldhagen, voice-over: MY JOURNEY ENDS WITH MY FATHER

1:40:51.878,1:40:54.614
AT THE PLACE WHERE HIS BEGAN.

1:40:54.614,1:40:59.319
SHORTLY AFTER THE GERMANS AND THE ROMANIAN ALLIES ENTERED MY FATHER'S TOWN,

1:40:59.319,1:41:01.888
THEY SLAUGHTERED 800 JEWS.

1:41:01.888,1:41:04.558
MY FATHER AND HIS FAMILY WERE NEARLY EXECUTED

1:41:04.558,1:41:06.960
ON A DIRT ROAD BEHIND THEIR HOUSE

1:41:06.960,1:41:12.766
SOMEWHERE IN THIS NEIGHBORHOOD.

1:41:12.766,1:41:13.834
DO YOU SEE ANY TRACKS?

1:41:13.834,1:41:16.336
THEY SHOULD BE STRAIGHT AHEAD.

1:41:16.336,1:41:18.205
IF WE END HERE, THE TRACKS SHOULD BE RIGHT DOWN HERE.

1:41:18.205,1:41:20.941
HERE THEY ARE.

1:41:20.941,1:41:22.342
TATI, SEE THE TRACKS?

1:41:22.342,1:41:23.677
I DON'T KNOW. DO YOU SEE THEM?

1:41:23.677,1:41:24.911
YES, THEY'RE RIGHT THERE.

1:41:24.911,1:41:26.880
OH, I SEE. YEAH. THAT WAS HERE.

1:41:26.880,1:41:34.621
I LIVED RIGHT HERE.

1:41:34.621,1:41:37.924
I RAN OUT WITH MY FATHER BEYOND FROM THERE.

1:41:37.924,1:41:39.025
OUT THE OTHER SIDE?

1:41:39.025,1:41:41.361
YES. I REMEMBER WE RAN OVER A FENCE,

1:41:41.361,1:41:43.363
AND AS WE WERE RUNNING, A SOLDIER SPIED US

1:41:43.363,1:41:44.831
AND BEAT MY FATHER VERY SEVERELY

1:41:44.831,1:41:46.333
WITH THE BUTT OF HIS RIFLE

1:41:46.333,1:41:48.101
AND PUT US AGAINST-- SAID, "WAIT HERE,"

1:41:48.101,1:41:50.637
PUT US AGAINST-- OF COURSE THERE WAS A FENCE--

1:41:50.637,1:41:52.139
AGAINST THE FENCE,

1:41:52.139,1:41:58.845
AND THEN HE TOLD ME TO TELL THE FAMILY TO COME--

1:41:58.845,1:41:59.846
TO COME OUT.

1:41:59.846,1:42:00.847
SO HE SENT YOU BACK TO THE HOUSE?

1:42:00.847,1:42:02.215
HE SENT ME BACK TO THE HOUSE,

1:42:02.215,1:42:07.387
AND WE SAW NEIGHBORS STANDING BEYOND THIS RAILWAY,

1:42:07.387,1:42:10.390
AND WE REALIZED THAT THEY'RE LOOKING AT US

1:42:10.390,1:42:14.995
IN A CERTAIN WAY THAT THEY-- IN AN OMINOUS WAY.

1:42:14.995,1:42:24.070
THEY--WHICH DIDN'T-- WHICH DIDN'T BODE WELL, TO SAY THE LEAST.

1:42:24.070,1:42:26.940
NOW THAT WE'RE HERE, IS THIS--HAS IT CHANGED YOUR VIEW?

1:42:26.940,1:42:29.509
YOU SEE, THE POINT IS THAT THE SCHOLARLY ELEMENT--

1:42:29.509,1:42:33.680
THE SCHOLAR WITHIN ME IMMEDIATELY TAKES OVER THE--

1:42:33.680,1:42:38.985
AND OVERSHADOWS THE EMOTIONS OF THE SURVIVOR

1:42:38.985,1:42:42.622
WHO REVISITS THE SCENE OF HIS NEAR DEATH.

1:42:42.622,1:42:46.860
SO AS I TALK TO YOU, I BEGIN TO REFLECT,

1:42:46.860,1:42:49.095
DRAW HISTORICAL ANALOGIES, AND SO ON,

1:42:49.095,1:42:52.332
SO THEREFORE, IT HAS A CERTAIN TEMPERING EFFECT

1:42:52.332,1:42:54.501
UPON MY EMOTIONS AS I CONFRONT

1:42:54.501,1:42:56.002
THIS HOUSE WHERE I LIVED,

1:42:56.002,1:42:57.571
THIS STREET WHERE I WALKED,

1:42:57.571,1:43:03.109
AND REFLECTED ON MY BLOOD LYING IN THE DUST HERE,

1:43:03.109,1:43:06.580
BUT WHEN I REMEMBER THAT MOMENT AS I WALKED

1:43:06.580,1:43:08.315
AND I JUST COULDN'T BELIEVE--

1:43:08.315,1:43:12.485
YES, I DID REFLECT UPON HOW I WOULD LIE DEAD.

1:43:12.485,1:43:14.821
WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE DEAD

1:43:14.821,1:43:17.357
AND TO LIE IN YOUR BLOOD?

1:43:17.357,1:43:39.346
I REMEMBERED VIVIDLY THIS IMAGERY THAT I HAD AS I WALKED, AND...

1:43:39.346,1:43:41.882
Goldhagen, voice-over: WHAT MUST IT FEEL LIKE FOR A 10-YEAR-OLD BOY

1:43:41.882,1:43:47.220
TO CONTEMPLATE HIS OWN IMMINENT, VIOLENT DEATH

1:43:47.220,1:43:53.360
OR A 16-YEAR-OLD GIRL OR A 19-YEAR-OLD MAN?

1:43:53.360,1:43:57.063
WHAT MUST IT FEEL LIKE TO BE IMPRISONED IN A RAPE CAMP

1:43:57.063,1:44:01.268
OR TO WATCH HELPLESSLY AS MEMBERS OF YOUR FAMILY ARE KILLED

1:44:01.268,1:44:12.979
OR AS YOUR PEOPLE ARE DECIMATED?

1:44:12.979,1:44:15.982
WHAT MUST IT HAVE BEEN LIKE FOR THE MEN OF SREBRENICA

1:44:15.982,1:44:19.686
WHO WERE HERDED INTO THIS WAREHOUSE

1:44:19.686,1:44:21.988
OR FOR THE OTHERS FORCED AT GUNPOINT

1:44:21.988,1:44:24.624
INTO NEARBY FIELDS TO BE EXECUTED?

1:44:24.624,1:45:03.863
[SPEAKING NATIVE LANGUAGE]

1:45:03.863,1:45:07.867
[GUNSHOT]

1:45:07.867,1:45:09.569
[GUNSHOT]

1:45:09.569,1:45:12.539
[GUNSHOT]

1:45:12.539,1:45:17.210
[GUNSHOT]

1:45:17.210,1:45:21.014
[RAPID GUNSHOTS]

1:45:21.014,1:45:32.859
[GUNFIRE CONTINUING]

1:45:32.859,1:45:39.432
[GUNFIRE CONTINUING]

1:45:39.432,1:45:42.402
Goldhagen: WE CAN'T STAND BY ANYMORE.

1:45:42.402,1:45:45.905
PEOPLE ARE DYING EVERY DAY.

1:45:45.905,1:45:48.708
A FEW POLITICAL LEADERS START GENOCIDES.

1:45:48.708,1:45:53.013
A FEW POLITICAL LEADERS CAN STOP THEM.

1:45:53.013,1:45:55.448
THE PRESIDENTS AND PRIME MINISTERS WE ELECT

1:45:55.448,1:45:59.152
HAVE THE POWER TO END IMPUNITY AND CHANGE THE CHOICES

1:45:59.152,1:46:04.958
POTENTIAL MASS KILLERS MAKE.

1:46:04.958,1:46:08.028
WE MUST HOLD OUR LEADERS ACCOUNTABLE AND DEMAND

1:46:08.028,1:46:29.315
THAT THEY BRING AN END TO GENOCIDE AND ELIMINATIONISM.

1:46:29.315,1:46:35.288
[INDISTINCT CHATTER]

1:46:35.288,1:46:36.756
THANK YOU. HOW DO YOU SAY THANK YOU?

1:46:36.756,1:46:38.158
I NEVER REMEMBER ANYTHING.

1:46:38.158,1:46:39.325
[MAN SPEAKS NATIVE LANGUAGE]

1:46:39.325,1:46:40.326
[REPEATS PHRASE]

1:46:40.326,1:46:42.429
EVERYONE.

1:46:42.429,1:46:45.665
Goldhagen, voice-over: I HAD BEEN WORKING ON "WORSE THAN WAR"

1:46:45.665,1:46:50.603
FOR ABOUT 10 YEARS BEFORE THE FILM PROJECT BEGAN.

1:46:50.603,1:46:52.906
WHEN I WRITE A BOOK, I CAN PRETTY MUCH SAY WHATEVER I WANT TO,

1:46:52.906,1:46:55.575
AND IF I DECIDE SOMETHING NEEDS 20 PAGES OF ELABORATION,

1:46:55.575,1:46:56.776
THEN I DO IT.

1:46:56.776,1:46:58.278
EVEN THOUGH I HAD THOUGHT AT THE BEGINNING,

1:46:58.278,1:47:01.181
"WELL, I KNOW WHAT THIS FILM SHOULD SAY,"

1:47:01.181,1:47:02.615
IT TURNED INTO SOMETHING QUITE DIFFERENT

1:47:02.615,1:47:04.284
AND INFINITELY BETTER THAN ANYTHING

1:47:04.284,1:47:08.221
I WOULD HAVE PRODUCED HAD I BEEN THE FILMMAKER

1:47:08.221,1:47:11.024
BECAUSE I PROBABLY WOULD HAVE PRODUCED A NICE TWO-HOUR LECTURE

1:47:11.024,1:47:12.826
OF SOME KIND WITH VISUALS

1:47:12.826,1:47:15.962
INSTEAD OF A FILM THAT IS VISUALLY ARRESTING

1:47:15.962,1:47:17.730
AND EMOTIONALLY EVOCATIVE

1:47:17.730,1:47:21.101
AND, AS POWERFUL AS THE BOOK IS,

1:47:21.101,1:47:26.206
IN SOME WAYS OBVIOUSLY MORE POWERFUL.

1:47:26.206,1:47:31.077
WHEN MY FATHER AND I WENT TO WHERE HE HAD LIVED DURING THE HOLOCAUST,

1:47:31.077,1:47:35.915
SARAH MY WIFE AND GIDEON OUR SON CAME WITH US.

1:47:35.915,1:47:38.685
GIDEON AT THE TIME WAS 7 YEARS OLD,

1:47:38.685,1:47:40.386
AND HE WAS DEEPLY INTERESTED.

1:47:40.386,1:47:42.522
HE'S VERY CLOSE MY PARENTS. THEY LIVE NEARBY.

1:47:42.522,1:47:45.625
HE WAS DEEPLY INTERESTED IN GOING TO WHERE GRANDPA WAS FROM.

1:47:45.625,1:47:47.260
SO THEY CAME ON THE TRIP WITH US,

1:47:47.260,1:47:51.931
AND IT WAS SOMETHING THAT MADE MY FATHER ENORMOUSLY HAPPY.

1:47:51.931,1:47:54.434
THAT ONE OF HIS GRANDCHILDREN COULD SEE WHERE

1:47:54.434,1:47:57.170
MY FATHER CAME FROM AND WHERE HE SUFFERED

1:47:57.170,1:47:58.838
AND WHERE HIS FAMILY SUFFERED

1:47:58.838,1:48:01.674
MADE THE TRIP, IF ONE CAN SAY SUCH A THING,

1:48:01.674,1:48:12.719
TWICE AS MOVING AND MEMORABLE AND MEANINGFUL FOR HIM.

1:48:12.719,1:48:15.155
THERE'S NO DOUBT THAT MY FATHER INFLUENCED

1:48:15.155,1:48:19.125
MY INITIAL DIRECTION OF WORKING ON THE HOLOCAUST,

1:48:19.125,1:48:20.827
BUT IT'S LESS BECAUSE HE WAS A SURVIVOR

1:48:20.827,1:48:23.429
THAN HE WAS A PROFESSOR WHO STUDIED THIS,

1:48:23.429,1:48:25.632
AND I GREW UP WITH THIS MATERIAL IN MY HOME

1:48:25.632,1:48:28.501
ALWAYS WITH THE PURPOSE NOT OF TELLING A TALE OF WOE,

1:48:28.501,1:48:31.538
WHICH IT IS, BUT OF UNDERSTANDING AND EXPLAINING.

1:48:31.538,1:48:35.775
THIS WAS ALWAYS MY ORIENTATION FROM THE TIME I CAN REMEMBER

1:48:35.775,1:48:40.113
KNOWING OR THINKING ABOUT IT OR DISCUSSING IT,

1:48:40.113,1:48:47.220
BUT IT CHANGES YOU TO SEE THE PLACES.

1:48:47.220,1:48:51.624
THE CLICHÉ "A PICTURE'S WORTH A THOUSAND WORDS"

1:48:51.624,1:48:55.695
ONLY BEGINS TO CONVEY WHAT BEING IN A PLACE

1:48:55.695,1:48:57.864
AND SITTING ACROSS FROM THE VICTIMS

1:48:57.864,1:49:01.334
AND SEEING THE LOCATIONS WHERE PEOPLE WERE SLAUGHTERED

1:49:01.334,1:49:05.071
AND BEING IN A FORENSIC LAB WITH THE REMAINS OF VICTIMS

1:49:05.071,1:49:07.173
OR BEING IN A MASS GRAVE

1:49:07.173,1:49:10.143
OR STANDING ACROSS FROM A MASTERMIND OF GENOCIDE

1:49:10.143,1:49:12.912
SUCH AS RÍOS MONTT.

1:49:12.912,1:49:14.647
IT CHANGES YOU.

1:49:14.647,1:49:17.417
IT IS MORE THAN WORTH A THOUSAND WORDS.

1:49:17.417,1:49:23.556
IT'S WORTH ENDLESS, ENDLESS VOLUMES OF WORDS.

1:49:23.556,1:49:28.394
IN RWANDA, WE GAINED ACCESS TO ONE OF THE PRISON CAMPS.

1:49:28.394,1:49:33.266
IT'S ACTUALLY A WORK CAMP FOR PRISONERS WHO CONFESSED

1:49:33.266,1:49:35.335
TO THEIR CRIMES, OR AT LEAST SOME CRIMES,

1:49:35.335,1:49:38.705
TO CONFESS TO HAVING PARTICIPATED IN THE GENOCIDE.

1:49:38.705,1:49:41.507
IF YOU CAN BELIEVE THAT, THERE ARE ABOUT 1,000 PEOPLE IN THIS PRISON.

1:49:41.507,1:49:43.376
THERE WERE NO GUARDS.

1:49:43.376,1:49:45.078
SO WE INTERVIEWED THE PERPETRATORS IN THE FIELD.

1:49:45.078,1:49:46.479
THE WARDEN JUST BROUGHT PEOPLE TO US.

1:49:46.479,1:49:49.015
WE HAD NO IDEA WHO WE'D BE TALKING TO,

1:49:49.015,1:49:50.750
AND ALSO, WE WALKED AMONG THEM.

1:49:50.750,1:49:57.257
THEY WERE TILLING THE GROUND WITH HOES AND PICKS AND MACHETES,

1:49:57.257,1:50:00.159
CLEARING IT, AND YOU'RE WALKING AMONG THEM

1:50:00.159,1:50:03.496
WITHIN FEET OF ROWS OF THEM WIELDING THESE IMPLEMENTS,

1:50:03.496,1:50:08.968
AND YOU CAN'T BUT THINK THESE ARE THE IMPLEMENTS THEY USED TO SLAUGHTER

1:50:08.968,1:50:11.404
THEIR VICTIMS DURING THE GENOCIDE

1:50:11.404,1:50:14.641
BY THE INDIVIDUALLY, BY THE TENS, BY THE HUNDREDS,

1:50:14.641,1:50:18.811
BY THE THOUSANDS ULTIMATELY.

1:50:18.811,1:50:18.811
OK.

1:50:18.811,1:50:21.147
TELL ME WHEN.

1:50:21.147,1:50:24.284
SHAKING THE HAND OF A KILLER BEFORE I EVEN KNOW ANYTHING ELSE

1:50:24.284,1:50:26.586
ABOUT HIM EXCEPT FOR WHAT HIS NAME IS,

1:50:26.586,1:50:28.021
IS A STRANGE THING.

1:50:28.021,1:50:29.489
IT'S AN ACT OF POLITENESS.

1:50:29.489,1:50:32.625
IT'S A TIME OF HUMAN SHARING,

1:50:32.625,1:50:34.560
AND YET THAT SAME HAND-- I SHAKE THE HAND.

1:50:34.560,1:50:40.266
I THINK THE SAME HAND ACTUALLY WAS WIELDING A MACHETE

1:50:40.266,1:50:42.568
AND STRIKING AND KILLING

1:50:42.568,1:50:45.938
AND HACKING TO DEATH OTHER PEOPLE,

1:50:45.938,1:50:48.908
AND YOU CAN'T FLINCH,

1:50:48.908,1:50:51.577
AND YOU CAN'T SAY, "I DON'T WANT TO DO IT,"

1:50:51.577,1:50:54.414
AND YOU HAVE TO DO IT BECAUSE IT'S PART

1:50:54.414,1:50:56.582
OF WHAT YOU NEED TO DO WHEN YOU INTERVIEW SOMEBODY,

1:50:56.582,1:50:59.385
AND THAT'S JUST THE BEGINNING OF SITTING ACROSS FROM SOMEONE

1:50:59.385,1:51:01.988
WHO THEN BEGINS TO TELL YOU OF THE HORRIBLE THINGS,

1:51:01.988,1:51:03.923
THE HORRIFYING THINGS THAT HE DID,

1:51:03.923,1:51:06.926
THE WAYS THAT HE DID IT.

1:51:06.926,1:51:09.796
AND SO THERE I AM, A WHOLE JUMBLE OF EMOTIONS

1:51:09.796,1:51:14.434
AND THOUGHT AND DIFFERENT ORIENTATIONS AT THE SAME TIME--

1:51:14.434,1:51:17.403
THE INTERVIEWER, THE SCHOLAR THINKING ABOUT WHAT HE SAYS,

1:51:17.403,1:51:19.439
THE ANALYST, THE HUMAN BEING SITTING

1:51:19.439,1:51:21.874
ACROSS FROM A MASS MURDERER,

1:51:21.874,1:51:24.310
FEELING A DEGREE OF SYMPATHY OR EVEN OF LIKING FOR SOMEONE,

1:51:24.310,1:51:26.379
BECAUSE SOME SEEM LIKEABLE,

1:51:26.379,1:51:38.024
AND ALSO ALWAYS KEEPING IN MIND THAT THESE ARE MASS MURDERERS.

1:51:38.024,1:51:44.130
TO BE ABLE IN MAKING THIS FILM TO GO TO ANY NUMBER OF COUNTRIES

1:51:44.130,1:51:46.966
AND TO TALK TO THE VICTIMS, TO TALK TO THE PERPETRATORS,

1:51:46.966,1:51:50.036
JUST TO SEE THE PLACES I'D READ ABOUT

1:51:50.036,1:51:52.472
WAS TRANSFORMATIVE,

1:51:52.472,1:51:57.343
AND I THINK BACK ON THE PEOPLE QUITE OFTEN I TALKED TO.

1:51:57.343,1:52:00.279
THEY RESONATE WITH ME. THEIR FACES I SEE.

1:52:00.279,1:52:06.786
IN THE FILM, MY FATHER AND SOME OTHERS TALKED ABOUT SEEING FACES.

1:52:06.786,1:52:08.688
THEY'RE HAUNTED BY THEM, OR THEY REMEMBER THEM,

1:52:08.688,1:52:10.990
THE FACES OF THE PEOPLE WHO DIED.

1:52:10.990,1:52:15.228
WELL, THE FACES OF THE PEOPLE I SPOKE WITH AND THEIR WORDS ARE WITH ME

1:52:15.228,1:52:20.266
IN THE WAY THAT THE TESTIMONY IN DOCUMENTS

1:52:20.266,1:52:23.970
AND COURT TESTIMONY AND SO ON NEVER ARE WITH ME.

1:52:23.970,1:52:28.674
I HEAR THEM, I SEE THEM, I THINK ABOUT THEM.

1:52:28.674,1:52:33.880
I ABSORBED AND INTERNALIZED THINGS INTO MY BEING

1:52:33.880,1:52:43.423
THAT WERE NEVER THERE AND THAT WILL NEVER LEAVE ME.

1:52:43.423,1:52:51.731
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"WORSE THAN WAR" CONTINUES ONLINE.

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1:53:34.740,1:53:37.310
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1:53:37.310,1:53:39.712
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1:53:39.712,1:53:43.516
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