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RC3-Music
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Herald: So here with us, Stefania Maurizi[br]from Il Fatto Quotidian, she's an
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investigative journalist, and Nils Melzer,[br]who's the UN special rapporteur on
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torture, and they are here tonight to[br]dissect the Julian Assange and WikiLeaks
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case. And so, the stage is yours.
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Nils Melzer: Yes, thank you.[br]Stefania Maurizi: Absolutely, we are very
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lucky to have the UN special rapporteur on[br]torture Nils Melzer tonight, so we have
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many questions that I expect. Question for[br]you, and I hope you will have many
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questions for us as well. So let's start[br]Nils, about this case because I suppose
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you have hundreds of cases every year. And[br]why do you focus on these with many cases
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dealt with serious torture and all sorts[br]of serious human rights violations?
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Nils: Well, thanks Stefania, for the[br]question because I think that's what many
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people ask themselves. You know, how are[br]you focusing on a person who's locked up
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or was locked up at the time in an embassy[br]with a cat and a skateboard? How can it be
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torture, right? And to be honest with you,[br]that's what I thought, in the beginning
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because you're right, I received 10 to 15[br]requests of individuals, either by the
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victims themselves, that have been[br]tortured, or are exposed to the risk of
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torture, or their lawyers or family[br]members or NGOs. So, I get about 15 cases
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per day on my desk and I can do maybe one.[br]So, I really have to choose quite quickly.
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And I remember I was writing up a report[br]for the United Nations in December 2018,
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so that I would have been actually three[br]years ago, and I had this little message
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coming up on my screen saying Julian[br]Assange's lawyers are asking for your
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protection. And I immediately have this[br]emotional reaction of, Oh no, not this
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one. Isn't this, this hacker and rapist[br]and, you know, traitor? And I'm not going
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to be manipulated by this guy. And so, I[br]swept it off my screen and I continued
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working on my report, and it took me three[br]months until I, actually ... I got
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contacted again by his lawyers in March[br]2019, about the month before he was
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expelled from the embassy. And they sent[br]me some medical reports from an
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independent doctor, a US doctor, who was[br]specialized in examining torture victims,
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who had visited Guantánamo and so on, and[br]she had visited him in the embassy, not as
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an Assange activist at all. And she and[br]she came to the conclusion, in that
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medical opinion, that the Convention[br]against Torture was being violated, that
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his living conditions were inhumane. And I[br]thought that if a person like this comes
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to that conclusion, I probably better have[br]a look at this case and feel
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Stefania: sorry for you. Let's name her[br]because she's very authoritative.
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Nils: Yeah, it is Dr. Sandra Crosby is her[br]name. So, she's one of the first doctors
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... independent doctors ... who visited[br]Guantánamo and really someone who is very
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highly regarded, and impartial. So, I[br]looked at this, but I also received some
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other evidence. And you know, Stefania,[br]you have a very important role in making
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that available through your Freedom of[br]Information litigation, where you received
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the release of some of the email[br]correspondence between the Swedish
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Prosecution Service and the UK Prosecution[br]Service. Because at the base of the
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Assange case in the beginning was these[br]allegations of rape in Sweden and so on.
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And this correspondence really cast some[br]doubt on the legitimacy of this
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prosecution, which I had never doubted[br]before. And so, I started realizing
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that I had a lot of prejudice against[br]Assange, but I didn't really know what the
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evidence was. And the more I looked into[br]this case, the more I saw that it doesn't
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hold up. There is really no evidence for[br]this narrative. And I decided, well, I
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think there's something wrong here. I[br]can't rely on the governments. I can't
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rely on what I find on the internet, just[br]like this. And so, I really have to go and
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look at this case myself and have decided[br]to visit Julian Assange in London. I asked
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for permission to visit him in the[br]embassy. And as soon as I asked for
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permission three days later they expel[br]him, I might have sped it up. Also, I
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fear, although we know today that this[br]expulsion had been planned for months
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before, but all of a sudden, everything[br]went really, really fast. They expelled
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him, and he was arrested by the British[br]and put in a high security prison in
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Belmarsh in London, where I visited him[br]about three weeks ... four weeks later on
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the 9th of May 2019 with two specialized[br]doctors. I didn't expect to find torture,
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to be quite honest with you. I expected to[br]find a man who is, you know, a bit
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stressed, who is in bad health because[br]he's been in a room in the embassy for six
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years and more. And that, he needed some[br]medical treatments. I would make some
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recommendations, and I was sure we are in[br]Britain now. You know, he's in British
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hands. This is a rule of law country.[br]There's going to be due-process. They're
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not going to extradite him to the US, and[br]it's fine. But then what I realized is how
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the authorities reacted to my comments and[br]to my requests is that they didn't want to
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engage in a discussion on this case. They[br]didn't want to listen to my assessment.
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And both of the doctors that I took with[br]me are very specialized people. One is the
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psychiatrist, the other is the former[br]president of the World Forensic Society. I
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mean, he is a very established forensic[br]doctor. They've been examining torture
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victims for 30 years, and both of them,[br]independently from each other, came to the
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conclusion that Julian Assange showed all[br]the symptoms that are typical for a victim
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of psychological torture and psychological[br]torture is not some kind of a light form
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of torture. It is really extremely grave[br]destabilization of the identity through
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isolation, constant threat, constant[br]stress, constant also confusion through
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arbitrariness and the defamation,[br]humiliation. All these elements together
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are deliberately employed to destroy a[br]person's stability and identity, and we
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could actually measure neurological damage[br]on Julian Assange already and cognitive
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impairments that would, due to that[br]constant stress and harassment that he was
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exposed to in the embassy already and has[br]been exposed to since then. So, we came to
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a clear assessment. This person has been[br]tortured, and when I confronted the
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authorities with this, they basically shut[br]down. They didn't want to engage with me
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in a discussion. And the same happened[br]with Sweden because Sweden had contributed
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to this, and Ecuador and the US, all of[br]these countries basically refused to
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engage in a dialog with me on this. And[br]now I have to point out I'm mandated by
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states. I mean, I am the UN special[br]rapporteur on torture. I'm not an NGO
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person. I'm not an activist, I am not a[br]journalist, and I am not belittling that.
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I think that all of this is very[br]important. But when you talk to states, as
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someone who's been appointed by states to[br]do exactly that, to transmit allegations
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of torture to them, you would expect them[br]to at least engage in a dialog. But they
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refused. And when I saw that, I was sure[br]now something's wrong here, and I started
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really investigating this case. I looked[br]deeply into the Swedish case. I looked
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into the US case, where we saw that the[br]US is accusing Assange of espionage. And
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I really started digging into this case.[br]And the more I did, the more dirt came
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out, and not on the side of Assange, but[br]on the side of the governments. And that's
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really a long answer to your first[br]question, why did I take on this case?
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Because I felt well, if we have a case of[br]torture in a rule-of-law, western
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democracy like Sweden and Britain, and as[br]the United Nations rapporteur, I cannot if
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I have evidence for this, and I went there[br]with two specialized doctors to look at
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this. I mean, it's consolidated. I, you[br]know, by law they have an obligation now
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to investigate this and to, you know, to[br]compensate him and prosecute those who are
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culpable and so on. There is no[br]discussion. But if democracies can afford
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to simply ignore this, well, what does[br]this mean for our society? And that was
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the first thing. And the second thought[br]was, and by the way, what does this mean
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for press freedom? You know, what does[br]this mean And I've never been a press
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freedom specialist. But, I thought, well,[br]here we have a person who is being
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persecuted for the fact that he has[br]disclosed, not even stolen, but he's
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received and disclosed, published true[br]information that proved serious crimes for
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government officials, torture, murder, I[br]mean, horrible stuff. I mean, very serious
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crimes. If this becomes a crime, to bring[br]the evidence for other crimes, and we see
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that those criminals are not being[br]prosecuted. But the witness, basically,
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who informs the public, is being[br]prosecuted and threatened with one hundred
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and seventy-five years in prison. What[br]does this mean for people like you,
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Stefania? You know, who are the[br]investigative journalists, and if people
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like you no longer can work... What does[br]this mean for all the rest of us in
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society? What does it mean? Do we have a[br]right to know what the governments are
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doing with the power that we give to them[br]in a democracy, with the tax money we pay
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to them? Or does it become a crime if we[br]ask the wrong questions? I mean, this is
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really, that's why this is so important.[br]Assange isn't as important as any other
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victim of torture. You know, they're all[br]the same. But the case is a precedent case
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that is of enormous importance for the[br]functionality of democracy and the rule of
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law.[br]Stefania: Absolutely. Absolutely. You have
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a book which is coming out in February and[br]during the investigation on the case, I
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was really impressed by the chapter on[br]collateral murder, your analysis of the
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brutal attack on civilians. And you[br]analyze it from your point of view as an
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expert on human rights law. I would like[br]to ask you to do a quick analysis for our
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public, to explain where the war crimes[br]are involved. What are your conclusions
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and so on.[br]Nils: Right? OK, I'll quickly show the
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book just so people can see it. So, it[br]comes out in February, and it's true that,
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you know, in the beginning, I explain my[br]own role, obviously the role of WikiLeaks.
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But this collateral murder video was a[br]very important publication. The first big
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publication of WikiLeaks is this video,[br]that was recorded by an attack helicopter
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in Iraq, a US attack helicopter. It's a[br]standard, you know, a tele-lens camera,
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and it shows how... How those helicopters[br]are circling over Baghdad, and we see
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people walking in the streets, and then[br]you can hear the radio communication, and
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the helicopters basically report that we[br]have, you know, several people with
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AK-47s, which is a form of an automatic[br]rifle, a Kalashnikov. And they ask for
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permission to fire and then put on the[br]image. We cannot see armed people, really.
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In the beginning, to admit the truth, we[br]can see two people in a group of about 20
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who might be carrying a weapon. But then[br]also, we have to know that at the time, in
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2007, when this was recorded in Iraq, in[br]Baghdad, the US occupying forces had
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authorized the Iraqi population to own[br]kalashnikovs and to carry them, you know,
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to keep them at home, especially to[br]protect themselves from the looting.
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Because when after the invasion of the[br]British and the US, the rule of law broke
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down in Iraq, and they needed people to be[br]able to defend themselves. So, they were
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actually allowed to carry that type of[br]weapon. And so, they (the helicopter gun-
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ship) received permission to fire. And[br]then what we can see is that a group of
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about 10 people is just being massacred.[br]They are in civilian clothing, they are
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walking relaxed on the street. So, they're[br]clearly not preparing any attack or
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something. We know that there is some,[br]some US soldiers from the of radio
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communication. We can tell that there is[br]some US soldiers on the ground somewhere
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close to there, but nobody is preparing an[br]attack. You know, and so we see how these
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10 people are being massacred. And then we[br]hear those nasty comments by soldiers
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like, you know, "good shooting" and "you[br]see these bloody bastards" and these types
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of remarks. But the most troubling thing[br]is that then we have the helicopter makes
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a couple of circles, and they report what[br]they see on the ground, all the dead
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bodies and then some of the wounded people[br]who are crawling around and from the
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conversations, we understand that the[br]soldiers know that it's prohibited to
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attack wounded people. And I want to, you[br]know, I've been a law of armed conflict
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expert on the use of force for the[br]International Committee of the Red Cross.
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I've been teaching this at university[br]level for more than 10 years.I have
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analyzed hundreds of combat operations as[br]an expert. So, I can easily see that these
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soldiers are aware that they cannot[br]lawfully attack those wounded people and
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that also in the law of war, you cannot[br]attack people who rescue the wounded as
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long as they're not fighting themselves.[br]And then we see a minibus coming with
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civilians trying to rescue this man. And[br]this man we're talking about is a wounded
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journalist, is a Reuters journalist, who[br]was wounded in that attack. And the
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soldiers, the US soldiers asked for[br]permission to fire on these people, and
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they received permission. And then they[br]basically. You know, massacre, the wounded
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person and the rescuers with the machine[br]gun and there is even in the minibus, the
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two children of the driver that are[br]gravely wounded. So, I mean, all of this,
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this is a clear war crime. When you[br]deliberately attack a wounded person who's
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no longer participating in fighting or[br]rescue personnel, that's only trying to
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rescue someone, that is, without any[br]question, a war crime. In the first scene,
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I think we have to be fair that these[br]helicopters are circling at about one and
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a half miles distance. The video we see is[br]recorded by a tele-objective lens. So, the
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soldiers are not that close. When they[br]look out of the window, they cannot see
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any details. It is too far away. So, they[br]have to rely exclusively on that picture.
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And you also have to be fair that they can[br]see this picture only once in real time,
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and they have to decide immediately. They[br]cannot, like us, rewind it 100 times and
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watch it again from the armchair. So, all[br]of this being said, though, you know the
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first attack, I think in the best case,[br]it's a very sloppy mistake. And I don't,
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you know, I think it's already this[br]crosses the line to a war crime, but this
0:17:00.335,0:17:04.868
would be for a court to decide. But the[br]second attack, where they attack a clearly
0:17:04.868,0:17:10.790
wounded person and from the conversations[br]we know that the soldiers know that, you
0:17:10.790,0:17:16.514
know, they say, OK, he's wounded, and then[br]they're saying, you know, someone is
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coming to pick them up and picking up the[br]weapons can we fire? The law of war is
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very clear. This is absolutely prohibited[br]and what happened there is a clear war
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crime and the scandal is that everybody[br]knows that the soldiers knew that. I mean,
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the Department of Defense in the US knew[br]that, the US government knew that, the
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public knows it. I mean, it's obvious when[br]you watched the film, but it's, and we
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have video evidence, ... but nobody has[br]ever been prosecuted for that. That's the
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first scandal. The second scandal..[br]Stefania: Let me help you. Why no one has
0:17:57.399,0:18:03.878
prosecuted. Why there was no International[br]Criminal Court investigation. Nothing.
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Nils: Well because, the US is not party to[br]the ICC treaty. Of course, they have not,
0:18:09.255,0:18:13.632
.... You know, they have made sure that no[br]one can prosecute them for war crimes. And
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also now, legally, any country in the[br]world could, and not even could, but would
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have to prosecute these people as soon as[br]they are on their territory because war
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crimes are so-called universal[br]jurisdiction crimes, which means if I
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commit a war crime anywhere in the world,[br]no matter what nationality I am, no matter
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where I am, the country where I am has to[br]arrest me and to prosecute me or to
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extradite me to a country that will[br]prosecute me. That's what the Geneva
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Conventions say. That's what the[br]International Criminal Law says and not
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only the ICC treaty, but actually even the[br]Geneva Conventions that the US has
0:18:53.933,0:19:01.958
ratified. So, but what the reason is clear[br]is a political reason because no one dares
0:19:01.958,0:19:06.773
to prosecute a US soldier. If the US[br]doesn't do it. Now, to me, the most
0:19:06.773,0:19:12.480
troubling thing is that the US doesn't[br]do it because it's in their interest to
0:19:12.480,0:19:19.809
prosecute people who violate the law of[br]war. Because we know that the discipline
0:19:19.809,0:19:26.920
in an army diminishes very quickly when[br]you tolerate people committing war crimes.
0:19:26.920,0:19:32.507
And so, it's very, very important for, and[br]even for just the hygiene of the armed
0:19:32.507,0:19:36.882
forces, that they prosecute these things.[br]Now, not to say, you know, that the
0:19:36.882,0:19:41.056
humanitarian reasons and the human rights[br]of these people who have been murdered and
0:19:41.056,0:19:45.524
their families that don't receive[br]compensation, and then it also means that
0:19:45.524,0:19:51.210
these types of operations proliferate. You[br]know, if you don't stop it like this, this
0:19:51.210,0:19:56.374
becomes the normal modus operandi. And[br]that's exactly what many veterans of the
0:19:56.374,0:20:00.975
Iraq War have said, that this is not[br]collateral. Murder is not an exception.
0:20:00.975,0:20:06.814
This was the standard procedure. This[br]happened every day, in that period. And
0:20:06.814,0:20:13.422
so, that's really a major scandal. But you[br]know, the second thing I want to say is
0:20:13.422,0:20:18.323
the even bigger scandal is some people are[br]being prosecuted. And that's the
0:20:18.323,0:20:24.766
whistleblower that actually leaked this[br]information and the journalists who
0:20:24.766,0:20:33.597
published it. So, that is really turning[br]the world of justice upside down when
0:20:33.597,0:20:40.400
murderers are walking free and the[br]witness, you know, who witnessed the
0:20:40.400,0:20:48.480
murder or brings the (...). He would get[br]one hundred and seventy-five years in
0:20:48.480,0:20:53.520
prison. That's enormous. That's a bit, ...[br]that's more than any war criminal in The
0:20:53.520,0:20:58.640
Hague has ever received. That's what we're[br]looking at, and, you know, when you were
0:20:58.640,0:21:05.360
asking, well, you know what, what is[br]Assange actually being accused of? When
0:21:05.360,0:21:10.800
you look at the indictment, it's all about[br]receiving this type of information and
0:21:10.800,0:21:15.040
publishing this type of information.[br]That's what I mean, you tell me, but
0:21:15.040,0:21:17.672
that's what an investigative journalist[br]does. No?
0:21:18.000,0:21:23.040
Stefania: Politically, absolutely. This is[br]what we do on a regular, ... on a daily
0:21:23.040,0:21:28.000
basis.[br]Nils: Yeah. And so now, if I ask you an
0:21:28.000,0:21:35.360
honest question, Stefania, if I gave you[br]today a USB stick with "Collateral Murder
0:21:35.360,0:21:45.120
Video #2", and another 250,000 diplomatic[br]cables, would you publish them? I mean, 10
0:21:45.120,0:21:48.560
years ago, you probably would have.[br]Because at the time, even the New York
0:21:48.560,0:21:53.920
Times, The Guardian and the Spiegel and Le[br]Monde and everybody, you know, wanted to
0:21:53.920,0:22:00.240
co-publish this together with Assange. But[br]today? They're not even, they're not even
0:22:00.240,0:22:06.320
really reporting on what's happening here.[br]And, you know, if I ask you, do you feel
0:22:06.320,0:22:11.440
intimidated by what's happening to[br]Assange? Would you feel comfortable
0:22:11.440,0:22:16.960
publishing these things today?[br]Stefania: I do feel really intimidated.
0:22:16.960,0:22:20.560
Nils: Yeah,[br]Stefania: I think I would approach this
0:22:20.560,0:22:23.464
with serious, serious concern, ...[br]Nils: Yup,
0:22:23.464,0:22:28.000
Stefania: of not being protected by[br]anything at the end of the day because I
0:22:28.000,0:22:33.680
have seen, in the last 13 years which I[br]have been covering and together in this
0:22:33.680,0:22:38.720
case, that Julian Assange and the[br]WikiLeaks journalists have tried
0:22:38.720,0:22:45.280
everything. They have tried to use the[br]laws. They have tried to ask for asylum.
0:22:45.280,0:22:52.080
They have tried to look for protection by[br]the media community. They have tried
0:22:52.080,0:22:57.120
everything. And with the exception of the[br]UN authorities, the U.N. Special
0:22:57.120,0:23:03.280
Rapporteur on Torture and the UN Working[br]Group on Arbitrary Detention, they have
0:23:03.280,0:23:07.840
received no protection whatsoever. So, I[br]would be terrified, honestly.
0:23:07.840,0:23:14.800
Nils: Yes. And I think this is the type of[br]question we have to ask ourselves. It's
0:23:14.800,0:23:20.880
not about will Assange be extradited or[br]not. Yes, it's important, but it's already
0:23:20.880,0:23:27.760
working. You see, the example has already[br]been set for the last 10 years. This man
0:23:27.760,0:23:34.080
has not been free. He's been on the run[br]from a country that's accusing him for
0:23:34.080,0:23:39.040
telling the truth about its crimes. That's[br]really what's happening here because
0:23:39.040,0:23:44.560
nothing else that he's accused of has been[br]proven and that they've tried hard.
0:23:44.560,0:23:49.440
They've invested millions in trying to[br]create the narrative. But everything else
0:23:49.440,0:23:55.920
from rape to hacking to, you know,[br]treason, all these things. There's not
0:23:55.920,0:24:01.760
that there's no proof whatsoever. So, all[br]of this is constructed to push him into a
0:24:01.760,0:24:07.200
corner, but also to intimidate people like[br]you. And I think that's that's what we
0:24:07.200,0:24:12.240
have to understand. That's the effect of[br]this. Yes, it's on Assange and his health
0:24:12.240,0:24:18.320
and his person, and that's important for[br]the individual. But my point of this being
0:24:18.320,0:24:23.040
a general, in the case of general[br]importance, is proven by your reaction.
0:24:23.040,0:24:27.360
And you, I know, are one of the more[br]courageous investigative journalists, and
0:24:27.360,0:24:33.280
you've been fighting, you know, the[br]secrecy for very long through your FOIA
0:24:33.280,0:24:38.800
litigation that has been so valuable in[br]producing, you know, evidence. And we know
0:24:38.800,0:24:44.000
that, you know, a lot of key evidence is[br]still being kept secret by these states.
0:24:44.000,0:24:51.040
And so, that's what we're risking to lose,[br]this access to the truth that is so
0:24:51.040,0:24:57.840
essential for democracy.[br]Stefania: Absolutely. Definitely. You
0:24:57.840,0:25:05.760
know, we know that is precisely what they[br]want, and that's why we had to fight hard
0:25:05.760,0:25:14.880
because it's about the society we want in[br]the free allowed to go out to the .... If
0:25:14.880,0:25:21.280
we allowed them to go ahead with this[br]persecution, with this extradition, they
0:25:21.280,0:25:27.760
will .... It will be the end of the press[br]freedom ..., it would be the end of
0:25:27.760,0:25:33.120
investigative journalism and the right of[br]the public to know. it's not just about
0:25:33.120,0:25:38.960
us, it's not just about the investigative[br]journalism. It's about the public's right
0:25:38.960,0:25:43.280
to know. I mean, Nils: And I think it's[br]important, you know, I know, that to many
0:25:43.280,0:25:47.840
people, this might sound alarmist. You[br]know, oh, this is exaggerated. Oh, come
0:25:47.840,0:25:51.040
on, this is just Assange, and he's going[br]to be prosecuted and everything's going to
0:25:51.040,0:25:58.560
be fine. No, you know, when you look in[br]history, that's exactly how powerful
0:25:58.560,0:26:04.240
states have behaved and dictators, and you[br]know, for creating dictatorships. You
0:26:04.240,0:26:12.560
know, you take someone, and you destroy[br]their reputation. You accuse them of, you
0:26:12.560,0:26:17.760
know, stupid things and or even serious[br]crimes, you know, but they cannot be
0:26:17.760,0:26:23.360
proven. And you destroy their reputation.[br]And then when the whole public is
0:26:23.360,0:26:28.400
convinced that, you know, this is a bad[br]guy. Then you set an example with "him".
0:26:29.440,0:26:34.640
On press freedom, but nobody cares about[br]"him" because I think it's just him and
0:26:34.640,0:26:40.000
nobody likes him because his reputation[br]has been destroyed. But the problem is the
0:26:40.000,0:26:44.640
precedent case can be applied to anybody,[br]afterwards. And that's exactly what
0:26:44.640,0:26:49.200
they're trying to do. And I think it's[br]very, very important that we are aware of
0:26:49.200,0:26:55.280
this. It's not whether you like or dislike[br]Assange, it's whether you like or dislike
0:26:56.160,0:27:01.760
the rights that he has and that you have[br]and that everybody else has, which is the
0:27:01.760,0:27:05.760
right of freedom of expression. And that's[br]not just the freedom of expression is not
0:27:05.760,0:27:10.960
just the right to say anything you want[br]and think anything you want, but also to
0:27:10.960,0:27:16.400
receive that information that the public[br]has the rights under the freedom of
0:27:16.400,0:27:23.200
expression, to hear and to read, and to[br]see the evidence of government misconduct.
0:27:23.840,0:27:27.520
And that's what they're trying to[br]suppress. Now, if you say this is a
0:27:27.520,0:27:34.400
conspiracy theory, look, it's very[br]obvious, the torture, the murder of
0:27:34.400,0:27:39.920
civilians, of journalists or collateral[br]murder and other documents has been
0:27:39.920,0:27:44.400
proven. It's not something that the[br]government has said is not true. No, they
0:27:44.400,0:27:48.880
have never, .... They have never claimed[br]that anything is not true that WikiLeaks
0:27:48.880,0:27:57.440
has proven. So, actually by law, those[br]officials have to be prosecuted, and they
0:27:57.440,0:28:03.600
should spend, you know, many years in[br]prison. Some of them. So, but they will
0:28:03.600,0:28:09.840
say, but I received orders from up, and it[br]goes higher up the chain of responsibility
0:28:09.840,0:28:16.240
doesn't end in the attack helicopter. It[br]ends somewhere in a government building,
0:28:16.240,0:28:21.680
in a nice little office with or a big[br]office, rather with thick carpets. And
0:28:21.680,0:28:26.080
that's what they're afraid of because the[br]commander is responsible for this. So,
0:28:26.080,0:28:29.920
that's why they cut this, and they[br]intimidate everybody, and they
0:28:29.920,0:28:35.120
criminalize. It's basically it's a re-[br]classified information, and if you publish
0:28:35.120,0:28:40.880
it, you will be punished and re-classified[br]for reasons of national security. But
0:28:40.880,0:28:45.520
that's not true. They're classifying it[br]for their own impunity. That's what they
0:28:45.520,0:28:51.040
want to protect. And it's natural. You[br]know, if you accuse someone of murder in
0:28:51.040,0:28:56.640
court, and you allow him to classify all[br]the evidence against him and to make it a
0:28:56.640,0:29:02.240
crime to disclose it, he will do it, for[br]sure. So let's be realistic, you know,
0:29:02.240,0:29:05.920
governments are not good or bad. They're[br]just normal human beings. And if they make
0:29:05.920,0:29:10.160
a mistake, they want to cover it up like[br]everybody else. So, that's the natural
0:29:10.160,0:29:16.880
behavior. That's why we really have to[br]insist on transparency for the powerful.
0:29:16.880,0:29:24.080
You know, we have to insist on oversight[br]on the separation of power. We have to
0:29:24.080,0:29:29.760
insist that it be treated as a serious[br]crime to circumvent these checks and
0:29:29.760,0:29:36.800
balances because it threatens the very[br]core of our society, of our democracy and
0:29:36.800,0:29:43.680
of our civil liberties. And when you look[br]at the legal proceedings that Assange has
0:29:43.680,0:29:47.680
been exposed to, I'm not going to bore you[br]with a lot of legal technicalities, but
0:29:47.680,0:29:51.440
I've really investigated every single[br]legal proceeding from the Swedish
0:29:52.720,0:29:58.400
accusations or, you know, allegations of[br]sexual misconduct where I was able to read
0:29:58.400,0:30:03.280
original documents because I do speak[br]Swedish, and you know, luckily I had all
0:30:03.280,0:30:12.880
those documents that you also got to hand[br]on it through the FOIA litigation. And I
0:30:12.880,0:30:16.560
don't know what happened between Assange[br]and these women. But what I do know is
0:30:16.560,0:30:21.280
that the government in Sweden never cared[br]about that. They clearly from the
0:30:21.280,0:30:27.520
beginning wanted to create a rape[br]narrative and maintain it and to avoid,
0:30:27.520,0:30:34.320
you know, him getting a chance, a fair day[br]in court to actually deal with this. The
0:30:34.320,0:30:39.360
narrative that he evaded these accusations[br]that he was hiding in the embassy because
0:30:39.360,0:30:45.520
of the sexual allegations is false. He[br]offered to come to Sweden. He wanted to
0:30:45.520,0:30:49.840
testify in this case, but he was afraid[br]that the Swedish would send him to the
0:30:49.840,0:30:55.200
US without a legal proceeding, as they[br]had done with other people before. And he
0:30:55.200,0:30:58.480
just wanted guarantees from them, and the[br]Swedish didn't want to give those
0:30:58.480,0:31:03.840
guarantees, which is really something that[br]I can tell from international experience.
0:31:04.400,0:31:08.800
That's a warning. If the country doesn't[br]want to give you those guarantees, you
0:31:08.800,0:31:11.340
better not go there.[br]Stefania: Yeah,
0:31:11.340,0:31:17.360
Nils: He was right not to go. And they[br]really abused those legal institutions to
0:31:17.360,0:31:23.440
keep him in limbo, you know, suspected of[br]rape, but unable to defend himself. And
0:31:23.440,0:31:29.520
so, his reputation suffered because of[br]that. And then he continued, obviously
0:31:29.520,0:31:34.320
with, you know, the economic pressures on[br]Ecuador once they had a new president,
0:31:34.320,0:31:40.560
Moreno. The US put Ecuador under pressure,[br]and we have written evidence of Congress
0:31:40.560,0:31:44.768
writing to the president of Ecuador,[br]saying, Look, we would be happy to support
0:31:44.768,0:31:50.971
you economically and to, you know, to help[br]you bring up a country that the country's
0:31:50.971,0:31:57.055
situation, the economic situation to[br]financially support you. But there is one,
0:31:57.055,0:32:03.195
not several, there's one problem, and[br]that's the situation of Assange. And we
0:32:03.195,0:32:08.684
need him to be handed over, so we can[br]start helping you. So, that, ... we have a
0:32:08.684,0:32:16.480
letter of October 2018 of US Congress to[br]President Moreno. And from then on, it was
0:32:16.480,0:32:22.751
clear and Moreno was working together with[br]the British and the US to expel him from
0:32:22.751,0:32:28.654
the embassy. So, that was done without any[br]rule of law proceeding. You know, he had
0:32:28.654,0:32:33.603
official asylum, and it was just taken[br]from him along with his nationality. He
0:32:33.603,0:32:39.339
had no right to access a court to have a[br]lawyer defending him. It was just from one
0:32:39.339,0:32:44.520
hour to the other. He was expelled, and[br]the UK behaved just the same way. When you
0:32:44.520,0:32:49.617
think the UK is the quintessential rule of[br]law country, which I can, you know, this
0:32:49.617,0:32:56.428
was my conviction as a professor in the UK[br]university. And then you see that we have
0:32:56.428,0:33:02.908
a judge who is insulting him publicly in a[br]court hearing where Assange had said
0:33:02.908,0:33:07.464
nothing, except I plead not guilty. And[br]then we have another judge who's in charge
0:33:07.464,0:33:12.719
for the first couple of months for the[br]extradition procedure and her husband had
0:33:12.719,0:33:17.763
been exposed by WikiLeaks. I mean, it's[br]there's a conflict of interest. It's just,
0:33:17.763,0:33:24.120
you know, even it's a perception of bias[br]that you cannot afford in a democracy. And
0:33:24.120,0:33:29.428
then we have, you know, him being put in a[br]high security prison. Although he's not
0:33:29.428,0:33:33.549
serving a sentence for two years, he's[br]been in Belmarsh. He's not serving a
0:33:33.549,0:33:38.729
sentence. He's just being held there in[br]extradition detention. And normally people
0:33:38.729,0:33:43.394
should be allowed to work and to be with[br]their family and maybe to have an ankle
0:33:43.394,0:33:48.063
bracelet. Or they think Assange's case[br]because he has sought asylum in the
0:33:48.063,0:33:51.904
Ecuadorian embassy before, maybe they put[br]him in house arrest like they did with
0:33:51.904,0:33:56.862
Pinochet. But you will never. There's no[br]legal basis to put someone in a high
0:33:56.862,0:34:02.070
security prison. They do this with him[br]because they want to silence him because
0:34:02.070,0:34:08.243
they want to intimidate you, journalists.[br]That's the reason. And you know, when you
0:34:08.243,0:34:12.580
see this happening...,[br]Stefania: Let me stop you and ask you
0:34:12.580,0:34:21.029
something very, very serious, like the CIA[br]attempt to kidnap or poisoning him, which
0:34:21.029,0:34:28.361
is, I mean, this received so little[br]consideration. If we, ... I mean, I was
0:34:28.361,0:34:35.407
really upset about realizing how lethal it[br]was, considering the legal process in the
0:34:35.407,0:34:38.040
UK.[br]Nils: Absolutely. We've had we've had
0:34:38.040,0:34:42.375
indicators before we thought that the[br]security company that was working for the
0:34:42.375,0:34:46.768
Ecuadorian Embassy to guard the Ecuadorian[br]Embassy, U.C. Global was actually behind
0:34:46.768,0:34:51.430
the back of the Ecuadorian government[br]cooperating with the CIA and, you know,
0:34:51.430,0:34:58.802
streaming video feeds from surveillance[br]cameras, from the embassy to the CIA 24-7.
0:34:58.802,0:35:06.112
But not only that, we also had indicators[br]before, former employees of that company
0:35:06.112,0:35:13.277
testifying in court that, you know, there[br]were assassination plans for, you know,
0:35:13.277,0:35:19.605
against Assange by the CIA. And this was[br]then confirmed also by this Yahoo
0:35:19.605,0:35:26.020
disclosure in September this year, where[br]more than 30 agents or former agents of
0:35:26.020,0:35:32.760
the CIA allegedly confirmed that there[br]were plans to kidnap or Assange to, you
0:35:32.760,0:35:38.925
know, disappear him into black sites or[br]even to assassinate him was considered at
0:35:38.925,0:35:46.160
least, but then found to be too dangerous.[br]But the plan was to poison him. Now, I
0:35:46.160,0:35:51.126
mean, I'll just take another case,[br]Navalny, right, that everybody knows, you
0:35:51.126,0:35:56.657
know, and says that, allegedly, the[br]Russian government tried to poison him.
0:35:56.657,0:36:01.950
Well, that's what we're talking about. But[br]you know, it's the same thing. It's just
0:36:01.950,0:36:07.200
that in Nawalny's case, and rightly so,[br]you know, everybody is is is protesting
0:36:07.200,0:36:12.844
and of the western governments are very[br]courageously, you know, imposing sanctions
0:36:12.844,0:36:18.400
and so on. But when the same thing is[br]being planned by the CIA against Assange,
0:36:18.400,0:36:24.842
nobody speaks out. And that's that's what[br]I found, this kind of hypocrisy that we
0:36:24.842,0:36:31.317
have in Western governments is just so[br]disappointing. It's scandalous because it
0:36:31.317,0:36:37.207
threatens the foundations of what our[br]societies are. And if someone has
0:36:37.207,0:36:41.566
committed a crime, yes, arrest and try[br]him, you know, bring the evidence or
0:36:41.566,0:36:45.648
acquit him. But that's that's the end of[br]the story. But they don't know what to
0:36:45.648,0:36:49.680
accuse him of because he hasn't committed[br]any crime. So, they invent these stupid
0:36:49.680,0:36:53.299
stories. You know, he's not feeding his[br]cat, and he's playing football in the
0:36:53.299,0:36:56.742
embassy and all these stupid headlines[br]that you see. I mean, the BBC, you know, I
0:36:56.742,0:37:01.433
mean, they're reporting on these types of[br]things, but they're they're not, you know,
0:37:01.433,0:37:06.107
considerate enough about their own[br]profession as journalists to report on
0:37:06.107,0:37:10.571
what's actually happening here, that this[br]is about criminalizing investigative
0:37:10.571,0:37:17.608
journalism. This should be really at the[br]heart of the mission of a BBC or a New
0:37:17.608,0:37:23.520
York Times to be very, very outspoken[br]about this. And I'm convinced that if the
0:37:23.520,0:37:28.622
mainstream media, the main outlets in the[br]Anglo-Saxon world, let's say the New York
0:37:28.622,0:37:35.705
Times, The Washington Post, The Guardian[br]and the BBC, if they together deliberately
0:37:35.705,0:37:43.158
launched an effort to condemn this[br]persecution on their front pages and the
0:37:43.158,0:37:49.399
main news hour, you know, for one week[br]straight. This would be finished because
0:37:49.399,0:37:55.338
the government has nothing in their hands[br]in terms of truth. All they can do is
0:37:55.338,0:38:00.065
orchestrate a secret trial in Alexandria,[br]an espionage court where they tape the
0:38:00.065,0:38:06.520
doors and lock the windows and nobody is[br]allowed to witness what's going on, and
0:38:06.520,0:38:11.290
then they condemn him for something and[br]sentence him to 175 years in prison. And
0:38:11.290,0:38:15.332
nobody, even the defense counsel, doesn't[br]have access to the evidence. I mean,
0:38:15.332,0:38:21.702
that's that's a show trial that's not a[br]rule of law proceeding. And I think the
0:38:21.702,0:38:25.470
societies in the West and around the[br]world, but they're talking about Western
0:38:25.470,0:38:32.119
democracies now. They deserve, you know,[br]governments and judiciaries that respect
0:38:32.119,0:38:39.372
those principles and respect the law. And[br]it's really very worrying. That's why I
0:38:39.372,0:38:46.285
put my whole professional weight and[br]personal credibility into this case
0:38:46.285,0:38:52.260
because I think this is about our rights,[br]it's about it's about the rights of our
0:38:52.260,0:38:57.947
children to know what their governments[br]are doing with the money and the power
0:38:57.947,0:39:03.453
that they give to the governments. And if[br]we allow it to become a crime to tell the
0:39:03.453,0:39:08.263
truth, we will be living in a tyranny[br]that's not exaggerated.
0:39:08.263,0:39:14.954
Stefania: Absolutely. I mean, we read this[br]about something we really care about. We
0:39:14.954,0:39:21.404
realized that this case is crucial, and we[br]cannot lose it. We absolutely don't want
0:39:21.404,0:39:28.425
to lose it. Nils, let me ask you one last[br]question, then we will ask for the public
0:39:28.425,0:39:35.847
asking question to ask. Well, this case is[br]about Julian Assange, of course, and it is
0:39:35.847,0:39:41.640
all about the WikiLeaks journalists[br]because they have at least (...), for now,
0:39:41.640,0:39:47.557
he's in prison, but they will be the next.[br]Let's mentioned Sarah Harrison, for
0:39:47.557,0:39:55.001
example, the former WikiLeaks section[br]editor, who flew to Hong Kong. (...) or
0:39:55.001,0:40:03.633
many, many others. Kristie Larson, Joseph[br]Farrell. I have the Freedom of Information
0:40:03.633,0:40:10.128
case in the UK, and it is about these[br]three WikiLeaks journalists former and
0:40:10.128,0:40:15.306
current WikiLeaks journalists. And[br]Scotland Yard, is doing whatever it can to
0:40:15.306,0:40:22.617
deny me access to these documents using[br]anti-terror laws again or for denying me
0:40:22.617,0:40:29.956
access to these documents. I have been[br]litigating this case about the WikiLeaks
0:40:29.956,0:40:35.351
journalists and Julian Assange for over[br]six years. So, what do you think is going
0:40:35.351,0:40:40.954
to happen in this case now? What's next?[br]Nils: Well, I think the first thing I want
0:40:40.954,0:40:46.300
is to finish this case. Set a precedent.[br]You know, with this man that most of the
0:40:46.300,0:40:51.265
public still somehow despises because they[br]have been deceived and poisoned by this
0:40:51.265,0:40:57.920
narrative that has been created about him.[br]But once this is done, clearly they will,
0:40:59.360,0:41:05.920
they will continue. This is not the end of[br]it. This is the beginning of a new era
0:41:05.920,0:41:11.200
where journalists will be prosecuted for[br]telling the truth about government
0:41:11.200,0:41:16.080
misconduct. Because then the precedent has[br]been set. And you know, it's very
0:41:16.080,0:41:22.400
important as we speak and as we observe[br]this case, all ready countries are
0:41:22.400,0:41:27.760
adapting their laws to this new future. We[br]see that in Australia, we see that in the
0:41:27.760,0:41:34.880
UK, where the Official Secrets Act is[br]being tightened. Basically, we see that,
0:41:34.880,0:41:39.520
well, the interpretation of the Espionage[br]Act in the US. Sweden has just passed a
0:41:39.520,0:41:47.360
law on foreign espionage where it becomes[br]a crime. Sweden used to be the safe haven
0:41:47.360,0:41:51.280
of press freedom, which is why Julian[br]Assange was in Sweden in the first place,
0:41:51.280,0:41:56.080
In 2010. We wanted to establish WikiLeaks[br]there because it was the safe haven for
0:41:56.080,0:42:03.040
press freedom. Sweden has passed a law[br]just two months ago by which from January
0:42:03.920,0:42:11.520
2023, it will be a crime in Sweden to[br]disclose classified information that does
0:42:11.520,0:42:16.720
not even threaten national security.[br]That's only prejudicial to the relations
0:42:16.720,0:42:21.920
of Sweden with a different country or an[br]international organization. I mean, it's
0:42:21.920,0:42:27.520
ridiculous. I mean, that's the standard is[br]so low. It's basically, though, the
0:42:27.520,0:42:32.880
diplomatic cables, something that's just[br]embarrassing before the relations of
0:42:32.880,0:42:38.000
Sweden with Austria, for example. You[br]know, I'm just taking by random example.
0:42:38.880,0:42:44.160
It's just embarrassing. That's sufficient.[br]It becomes a crime. So, what we have to
0:42:44.880,0:42:50.880
realize is this is, ... Now states are[br]building a system not only in the US, the
0:42:50.880,0:42:57.040
UK, the Anglo-Saxon world throughout, but[br]also even now, the allied countries are
0:42:57.040,0:43:03.280
building a system where it becomes a crime[br]to tell the truth. It's. Really high time
0:43:03.280,0:43:10.160
for us to ring the alarm bell and to stop[br]this, to insist that we have a right to
0:43:10.160,0:43:15.360
know.[br]Stefania: Absolutely. What do you expect
0:43:15.360,0:43:19.280
from the legal process in the UK? What do[br]you expect the next?
0:43:19.280,0:43:29.120
Nils: Well, unfortunately, I cannot expect[br]justice. I was hopeful. I mean, I am
0:43:29.120,0:43:35.120
pessimistically hopeful. If I can allow to[br]say that the High Court would refuse
0:43:35.120,0:43:41.200
extradition. But I sensed that exactly[br]what happened, was going to happen. I said
0:43:41.200,0:43:47.840
it before publicly, and it's happened[br]exactly as I presumed it would. I think
0:43:47.840,0:43:55.760
that the UK judiciary, unfortunately, is[br]unable to ensure respect for the law here
0:43:55.760,0:44:00.880
and that they will basically wave this[br]extradition through, and they will try
0:44:00.880,0:44:06.640
perhaps to extend this proceeding another[br]year or two. Because for the US, it's not
0:44:06.640,0:44:12.320
urgent for Assange to be extradited if he[br]dies in prison in the UK, all the better
0:44:12.320,0:44:16.480
for the US, so they don't have to deal[br]with it. What they want is to set the
0:44:16.480,0:44:21.600
precedent that everybody knows, including[br]yourselves, Stefania, that this is what's
0:44:21.600,0:44:26.560
going to happen to you if you ever mess[br]with our secrets, our dirty secrets. And
0:44:26.560,0:44:30.320
so, I don't know exactly what's going to[br]play out and how it's going to play out.
0:44:30.320,0:44:37.520
But in the big picture, these states have[br]not persecuted Assange for 10 years for
0:44:37.520,0:44:43.680
tens of millions of dollars to let him off[br]the hook any time soon. So, the only
0:44:43.680,0:44:49.840
chance he has, and that's the very real[br]chance, if public opinion changes and if
0:44:49.840,0:44:54.480
the main media organizations change their[br]view. As I said before, this is going to
0:44:54.480,0:44:59.200
be over. This is just like waking up from[br]a nightmare. It's going to be over. But if
0:44:59.200,0:45:09.440
they don't, we're in for a long nightmare.[br]Stefania: Thank you, Nils, let's open the
0:45:09.440,0:45:12.999
question from the public.
0:45:12.999,0:45:19.040
Herald: Yeah. There are More and more[br]questions coming up here. And let me start
0:45:19.040,0:45:24.800
by, ... one, that's more like the[br]beginning of the whole story as to what
0:45:24.800,0:45:30.880
exactly did you expect, or who do you[br]exactly expect to respond in the first
0:45:30.880,0:45:37.280
instance, when torture in UK is concerned?[br]Like before you send letters, you would
0:45:37.280,0:45:42.800
expect kind of a maybe a police showing up[br]or something like that. What would you
0:45:42.800,0:45:48.000
normally expect?[br]Nils: Well, if I receive allegations of
0:45:48.000,0:45:52.960
torture, I transmit them, I mean, the[br]first thing that happens, I look whether
0:45:52.960,0:45:57.280
they are credible. You know, if they are,[br]if they're not credible, obviously, I
0:45:57.280,0:46:02.720
will. I will. I will try to consolidate.[br]Maybe I will. My team will call the person
0:46:02.720,0:46:06.240
or organization that submitted the[br]information and try to consolidate it to
0:46:06.240,0:46:09.840
make sure that it is credible. It doesn't[br]have to be proven, but it has to be
0:46:09.840,0:46:13.760
credible. If that's the case, I will[br]transmit it to the government. And if it's
0:46:13.760,0:46:18.400
an urgent case, you know, if it's about[br]preventing torture, it's a historical case
0:46:18.400,0:46:23.120
that happened 15 years ago, and we're just[br]investigating it's not very urgent, and we
0:46:23.120,0:46:27.360
can take time. I mean, you know,[br]reasonable timeframe. But if it's very
0:46:27.360,0:46:33.840
urgent, someone is about to be executed or[br]transferred or extradited. Then within 24
0:46:33.840,0:46:38.960
hours, I can write a letter and transmit[br]it to the foreign minister of. And that's
0:46:38.960,0:46:43.280
your question. Who will actually will, ...[br]my interlocutor as the UN rapporteur is
0:46:43.280,0:46:47.680
always the foreign minister of the country[br]of the UN member state through the
0:46:47.680,0:46:54.160
diplomatic mission in Geneva. And so, they[br]will then have to distribute it to the
0:46:54.160,0:46:57.840
proper authorities in their country. If[br]it's an allegation about a police station,
0:46:57.840,0:47:04.000
that will have to, you know, transmit it[br]to the police and so on. But depending on
0:47:04.000,0:47:07.840
the country and the precise allegation, it[br]will be different authorities. It could be
0:47:07.840,0:47:13.280
a migration center or something like this.[br]But for me, it's very it's a diplomatic
0:47:13.280,0:47:18.080
protocol. I always have to go through the[br]Foreign Ministry and they will then have
0:47:18.080,0:47:23.840
to initiate those investigations and[br]inside the country.
0:47:23.840,0:47:28.960
Herald: OK, thank you very much. The Next[br]question would be, will Assange be
0:47:28.960,0:47:33.920
able to appeal to the European Court of[br]Justice? How long do you estimate Julian
0:47:33.920,0:47:38.320
will stay in prison until the highest[br]applicable court would publish a decision?
0:47:38.320,0:47:44.480
And are there any moves that can still be[br]made from a lawyer's point of perspective?
0:47:45.360,0:47:50.320
Well, I'm clearly not his lawyer. But, you[br]know, and his legal team would have to
0:47:50.320,0:47:54.080
speak to the strategy. So, I can't. I'm[br]not representing him, obviously. But
0:47:54.800,0:47:58.800
clearly, yes, at some point you will be[br]able, as soon as the last instance
0:47:58.800,0:48:07.040
decision has been validated by the last[br]instance of court in the U.K., then this
0:48:07.040,0:48:11.680
decision can be appealed to the European[br]Court of Human Rights, not the European
0:48:11.680,0:48:16.640
Court of Justice, that's an EU court, but[br]the European Court of Human Rights would
0:48:16.640,0:48:23.920
be that instance. They can also, already[br]now, appeal to that court for preliminary
0:48:23.920,0:48:28.400
protection, for example, to release him[br]from prison and to house arrest or
0:48:28.400,0:48:33.200
something like this. But that's a bit[br]technical. But yes, at the end there is an
0:48:33.200,0:48:37.600
opportunity to appeal to the European[br]Court of Human Rights. And the question of
0:48:37.600,0:48:42.720
how long it will last really depends on so[br]many factors. What's the strategy of the
0:48:42.720,0:48:46.400
lawyers? What's the strategy of the court?[br]You know, how long does the court take to
0:48:46.400,0:48:51.440
decide, after a hearing? Do they take two[br]weeks or do they take four months? It's up
0:48:51.440,0:48:56.880
to them. And so, it's, ... I can't, you[br]know, I can't. But it could last anywhere
0:48:56.880,0:49:00.720
from at least one year to, you know,[br]another three years or something like
0:49:00.720,0:49:04.240
this.[br]Stefania: I just want to add one important
0:49:04.240,0:49:09.440
info about this European Court of Human[br]Rights because according to the documents
0:49:09.440,0:49:16.800
I was able to get from my Freedom of[br]Information litigation, the UK authorities
0:49:16.800,0:49:21.840
were discussing with the Swedish[br]authorities an attempt to extradite Julian
0:49:21.840,0:49:29.520
Assange without allowing him to apply to[br]the European Court of Human Rights and
0:49:29.520,0:49:36.240
obtaining the protective measure. So, it[br]was an attempt to extradite him before he
0:49:36.240,0:49:40.800
could get a protective measure. Do you[br]think that means that they could play the
0:49:40.800,0:49:47.600
same game for the extradition to the US?[br]Nils: It's conceivable, yes. The problem
0:49:47.600,0:49:54.000
is that normally a judgment of the, ... or[br]an appeal to the European Court of Human
0:49:54.000,0:50:00.160
Rights is not, ... does not suspend the[br]validity of the national decision. So if
0:50:00.160,0:50:04.640
the Supreme Court of the UK allows the[br]extradition, for example, and Assange
0:50:04.640,0:50:09.760
appeals that then he can still be[br]extradited, unless the European Court of
0:50:09.760,0:50:19.840
Human Rights orders preliminary measures,[br]you know, that suspend that the validity
0:50:19.840,0:50:25.040
of that ruling. So but they still have to[br]decide that. And obviously, between the
0:50:25.040,0:50:30.000
decision of the Supreme Court and the[br]issuing of that preliminary protective
0:50:30.000,0:50:36.880
measure, there will be a few days. And so[br]in this time, you know, they can try to
0:50:36.880,0:50:44.080
send him out. So, it's very important that[br]his lawyers react in time and perhaps even
0:50:44.720,0:50:49.440
provisionally ask for measures like this.[br]But again, you know, his legal team would
0:50:49.440,0:50:52.080
be better placed to answer those[br]questions.
0:50:52.800,0:51:00.880
Herald: OK, thank you very much. I hope[br]you might answer the next question. What
0:51:00.880,0:51:05.520
is the government's justification for[br]keeping Assange in Belmarsh? And what
0:51:05.520,0:51:12.560
happens to other high, or high risk,[br]persons above who have a flight risk that
0:51:12.560,0:51:16.415
are on remand in the UK?[br]Nils: Well, the government doesn't just,
0:51:16.415,0:51:21.537
... I mean, they just say he's a flight[br]risk. OK. Well, yes, there is a precedent
0:51:21.537,0:51:25.523
that he's basically his, look, ... you[br]know, he's asked for asylum in the
0:51:25.523,0:51:30.704
Ecuadorian embassy. So now clearly, you[br]know, in my view, even the whole
0:51:30.704,0:51:35.713
extradition proceeding is illegitimate and[br]illegal. You know, for various reasons
0:51:35.713,0:51:39.953
because it concerns espionage, which is a[br]political offense and because, you know,
0:51:39.953,0:51:44.640
it's protected by press freedom, what he's[br]done and all of these things. But even if,
0:51:44.640,0:51:49.352
for the sake of the argument, if we accept[br]that this is a legitimate extradition
0:51:49.352,0:51:56.108
proceeding, then if he's a flight risk,[br]then yes, you can. You can secure his
0:51:56.108,0:52:05.100
presence, but you have to use the least[br]harmful means to do that. So, you cannot
0:52:05.100,0:52:10.456
take measures that are more restrictive[br]than necessary. And so if you put him in
0:52:10.456,0:52:14.548
house arrest, a guarded house arrest where[br]he cannot leave because there's a guard in
0:52:14.548,0:52:19.802
front of the door, that's sufficient, and[br]it's even cheaper than a high security
0:52:19.802,0:52:24.344
prison. And that's what they've done with[br]with with Augusto Pinochet, who was, I
0:52:24.344,0:52:28.800
remind you, not accused of journalism. He[br]was accused of having, you know, being
0:52:28.800,0:52:32.633
responsible for murder and torture and[br]disappearance of thousands of people as
0:52:32.633,0:52:39.232
the dictator of ex-dictator of Chile. And[br]the British, But he was an ally of the
0:52:39.232,0:52:43.589
United Kingdom. So, but he was in the[br]legal, legally accepted, (cough) excuse
0:52:43.589,0:52:48.564
me, except that he was accused of serious[br]crimes, and Julian Assange is not. He was
0:52:48.564,0:52:54.174
in the same extradition kind of situation,[br]and he was allowed to spend one and a half
0:52:54.174,0:52:59.253
years in a luxurious villa where he was[br]visited by, you know, ex-Prime Minister
0:52:59.253,0:53:04.116
Thatcher. But Julian Assange has been put[br]in a high security prison. That's, ...
0:53:04.116,0:53:09.952
he's not a violent person. He's put in the[br]toughest high security prison where, you
0:53:09.952,0:53:15.547
know, violent criminals are being held.[br]And so, that's actually that's absolutely
0:53:15.547,0:53:20.870
not justifiable. He could be kept in[br]anywhere else, you know where he can be
0:53:20.870,0:53:25.752
supervised, and he has a human right to[br]live his family life, to live his
0:53:25.752,0:53:30.763
profession. There is, ... he's not serving[br]a sentence. He's not convicted of
0:53:30.763,0:53:37.650
anything. And his health is in the dire[br]state. We have examined him two years ago
0:53:37.650,0:53:44.166
and warned that he would enter a downward[br]spiral very soon, and it actually
0:53:44.166,0:53:51.320
happened. He was not even able to to to[br]attend his, ... to observe his own appeals
0:53:51.320,0:53:58.035
hearing at the end of October. He actually[br]had a stroke during that hearing. And it's
0:53:58.035,0:54:03.844
absolutely grotesque that the judges in[br]that hearing, you know, decided that his
0:54:03.844,0:54:10.080
health was stable enough to be extradited[br]to the US, based on some flimsy assurances
0:54:10.080,0:54:17.320
that don't guarantee anything. You know[br]that don't protect him from anything.
0:54:17.320,0:54:23.734
Herald: Then this question fits right[br]perfectly to that because it does. Are you
0:54:23.734,0:54:27.914
confident that the US government won't[br]harm Assange as they promised?
0:54:27.914,0:54:34.335
Nils: To the contrary, I'm confident they[br]will because there's no way he's going to
0:54:34.335,0:54:40.366
get a fair trial. The public narrative[br]against Assange is so overwhelming, and
0:54:40.366,0:54:47.520
the prejudice is so overwhelming against[br]him. He's going to be tried in Alexandria,
0:54:47.520,0:54:54.167
the infamous espionage court where I[br]indicated before it's a secret trial. Very
0:54:54.167,0:54:59.210
often, the defense does not even have[br]access to the evidence against the
0:54:59.210,0:55:05.650
suspect, and there is no press allowed.[br]There is no trial observation allowed. You
0:55:05.650,0:55:13.198
know, there is, ... the jury takes[br]information from the prosecution that the
0:55:13.198,0:55:19.068
defense doesn't have access to. No one has[br]ever been acquitted in that court. It's a
0:55:19.068,0:55:23.903
national security court. No one has ever[br]been acquitted, and people are being
0:55:23.903,0:55:29.631
threatened with enormous prison sentences[br]there, unless they accept some kind of
0:55:29.631,0:55:34.016
plea bargain. In his case, it would[br]certainly mean that he would have to spend
0:55:34.016,0:55:42.678
decades in prison. So, ... and for this[br]type of suspect, it's always solitary
0:55:42.678,0:55:47.640
confinement, which means near complete[br]isolation. No contact with the outside
0:55:47.640,0:55:52.916
world, no contact to other inmates, no[br]talking even to the guards. You know, very
0:55:52.916,0:55:58.374
often the US authorities then say, Oh, we[br]have to put him on suicide watch, you
0:55:58.374,0:56:02.153
know, for his own benefit, which means[br]they wake him up every 15 minutes at
0:56:02.153,0:56:09.120
night. He cannot sit down or lie down[br]during the day. And it's really a form of
0:56:09.120,0:56:15.059
torture. And I say this as an expert, and[br]I'm not the only one saying this. It's my
0:56:15.059,0:56:18.898
predecessors. That's, you know, Amnesty[br]International, Human Rights Watch.
0:56:18.898,0:56:22.807
Everybody agrees these types of conditions[br]are a violation of the Convention against
0:56:22.807,0:56:29.711
Torture and Ill Treatment.[br]Herald: Thank you for that answer. I have
0:56:29.711,0:56:36.086
one last question, and that's probably the[br]big one. What can society do, or what
0:56:36.086,0:56:41.760
needs to happen, to stop the extradition[br]from happening now? And what would need to
0:56:41.760,0:56:45.760
happen to undo the effects of the US [br]government's approach in this case, like
0:56:45.760,0:56:50.880
the intimidation of journalists?[br]Nils: Well, I guess, Stephanie, you will
0:56:50.880,0:56:56.240
have something to say about this as well.[br]I mean, from my perspective. The US has to
0:56:56.240,0:57:02.720
drop this case. They have to, or they have[br]to be pressured by their own media and
0:57:02.720,0:57:10.240
their own society to drop this case[br]because, you know, the US society is
0:57:10.240,0:57:15.280
really, ... is they have the political[br]influence on their political leadership,
0:57:16.720,0:57:21.280
and it's in their own interest that they[br]stop this from happening because otherwise
0:57:21.280,0:57:25.360
they will lose, as I said before, the[br]right to know what their government is
0:57:25.360,0:57:29.680
doing, the fact already it lost that[br]right, actually, they have to regain it.
0:57:29.680,0:57:36.320
And I think, so, civil society is very[br]important, but the media, especially the
0:57:36.320,0:57:42.800
mainstream media, that they start picking[br]this up is very, very important. Public
0:57:42.800,0:57:48.480
opinion has to turn around and not only in[br]the US, in the UK, in Australia, in Sweden
0:57:48.480,0:57:55.440
and anywhere, anywhere. People have to ask[br]their governments, Why are you accepting
0:57:55.440,0:58:00.800
that a country that you are allied with,[br]you know, is persecuting journalists, that
0:58:00.800,0:58:05.360
expose their war crimes? We have to ask[br]the people, that are elected to
0:58:05.360,0:58:10.560
parliament, why they are, accepting this?[br]Why they are keeping silent, you know
0:58:10.560,0:58:15.680
because, it will cost it will cost us very[br]dearly. I don't know what you think,
0:58:15.680,0:58:18.320
Stefania.[br]Stefania: Yes, I absolutely agree with
0:58:18.320,0:58:24.240
you. We absolutely have to win this case,[br]which means we absolutely have to put
0:58:24.240,0:58:30.400
pressure, take to the streets, must see[br]press coverage of the situation. It's a
0:58:30.400,0:58:36.480
scandal that it took an Italian journalist[br]to litigate a Freedom of Information case
0:58:36.480,0:58:42.560
in the UK and the US, Australia and Sweden[br]because no one else did it. It's a scandal
0:58:42.560,0:58:47.440
that you took an Italian journalist to try[br]to discover the pressure from the Crown
0:58:47.440,0:58:54.640
Prosecution Service on the Swedish[br]authorities and the attempt to bypass the
0:58:54.640,0:58:59.680
European Court of Human Rights. Can you[br]believe that the Guardian was not able to
0:58:59.680,0:59:05.760
do this, or can you believe that the New[br]York Times could not expose the CIA
0:59:05.760,0:59:12.960
attempts to kill him? I mean, it took[br]Yahoo? I mean, can you believe Yahoo had
0:59:12.960,0:59:18.880
more sources inside the CIA than The[br]Washington Post or the New York Times that
0:59:18.880,0:59:26.320
inside this agency? Can you believe that[br]they were not able to expose before Yahoo
0:59:26.320,0:59:32.800
News? So, we absolutely have to call them[br]out and to make, ... to have them on
0:59:32.800,0:59:37.840
board. They don't want to be on board. We[br]have seen they don't cover the case
0:59:37.840,0:59:43.040
properly. They say they want to be[br]factual, when in fact they have not looked
0:59:43.040,0:59:48.080
for the facts. And it took an Italian[br]judicial system, a U.N. special
0:59:48.080,0:59:53.920
rapporteur, to investigate the case, which[br]is unbelievable, you know. So, we have to
0:59:53.920,0:59:59.840
have them on board, and we absolutely have[br]to win this case. Having the case dropped,
0:59:59.840,1:00:05.040
the investigation dropped because it is a[br]scandal. I mean, in 20 years of
1:00:05.040,1:00:10.880
journalism, my experience of 20 years as a[br]journalist, 15 in investigative
1:00:10.880,1:00:18.000
journalism, I have never heard of a media[br]organization put under investigation for
1:00:18.000,1:00:24.160
11 years. I never heard this. I don't[br]know. I don't believe it exists. Not even,
1:00:24.160,1:00:31.360
... I mean, just in seriously[br]authoritarian dictatorships. I never heard
1:00:31.360,1:00:36.080
of a media organization under[br]investigation for 11 years as WikiLeaks,
1:00:36.080,1:00:41.920
... the WikiLeaks journalists have been.[br]So, we absolutely have to win this case,
1:00:41.920,1:00:47.360
and we have not to rely on the legal[br]process. The legal process is completely
1:00:47.360,1:00:54.000
corrupt, completely corrupt. So, we, it is[br]up to us. It's up to us to take to the
1:00:54.000,1:00:59.280
street and to have press coverage or[br]whatever press coverage we can, the
1:00:59.280,1:01:05.680
independent media, the citizen journalism[br]for the whatever. We can to mobilize
1:01:05.680,1:01:10.880
people to have people taking to the[br]streets and realize this monstrous
1:01:10.880,1:01:18.400
injustice. In the preface to my book, Ken[br]Loach, the great film director Ken Loach,
1:01:18.400,1:01:24.080
calls it "this monstrous injustice". He's[br]absolutely right.
1:01:24.080,1:01:29.040
Nils: And if you allow me to just say one[br]sentence here also, to conclude my own
1:01:29.040,1:01:33.680
statement, here is just to say, don't[br]think that this is just the Assange case,
1:01:33.680,1:01:40.080
that is the tip of the iceberg. And I[br]wrote the book about this, not because
1:01:40.080,1:01:45.360
this is the only case, but this is the[br]case that makes it most visible what's
1:01:45.360,1:01:50.000
really going on? It's actually a keyhole[br]through which you can see into a parallel
1:01:50.000,1:01:54.160
world that already exists, where democracy[br]and the rule of law is being
1:01:54.160,1:02:00.960
systematically undermined. So, don't[br]believe those public narratives, in this
1:02:00.960,1:02:05.600
case or in others, you know. Ask[br]questions, ask for evidence and always
1:02:05.600,1:02:10.320
ask, you know, who has what kind of[br]interests here? And are we still able to
1:02:11.200,1:02:15.760
know what the powerful are doing with the[br]power and the money they have? And that's
1:02:15.760,1:02:22.080
really at the core of it. So, I hope this[br]was useful, and clearly I invite people,
1:02:22.080,1:02:26.960
you know, read, read, it's the Stefania's[br]book. Read my book, read, read about the
1:02:26.960,1:02:31.520
case and make up your own mind, you know[br]because it's about your rights and your
1:02:31.520,1:02:35.610
life.[br]Stefania: Absolutely. Let me close this
1:02:35.610,1:02:43.840
conversation with reminding people that we[br]will keep this conversation going in the
1:02:43.840,1:02:51.196
"after three village" at 10 p.m. We will[br]wait for you. We appreciate more questions
1:02:51.196,1:02:57.475
about these important crucial case. Thank you.[br]Herald: Yeah, thank you both very much for
1:02:57.475,1:03:03.520
being here and for the very interesting[br]talk, and maybe we see each other later in
1:03:03.520,1:03:13.212
the "after three village" and yeah, have a[br]good evening.
1:03:13.212,1:03:16.505
Music
1:03:16.505,1:03:25.525
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