0:00:00.000,0:00:02.500 ♪ [music] ♪ 0:00:11.230,0:00:13.120 - [Prof. Tyler Cowen][br]So why is the Chinese economy 0:00:13.120,0:00:14.810 in so much trouble right now? 0:00:14.810,0:00:17.350 Well, actually,[br]this shouldn't come as a surprise. 0:00:17.350,0:00:20.640 If you've been watching China[br]over the last several decades, 0:00:20.640,0:00:22.820 you can understand[br]how the current problems 0:00:22.820,0:00:26.150 actually fall out of a lot[br]of their earlier successes. 0:00:26.150,0:00:28.730 The story starts in 1979. 0:00:28.730,0:00:32.170 And in 1979,[br]you have Chinese reformers 0:00:32.170,0:00:35.410 starting to do a good deal[br]to put the Chinese economy 0:00:35.410,0:00:36.870 on a sounder track. 0:00:36.870,0:00:39.760 At that time,[br]Chinese per capita income 0:00:39.760,0:00:42.110 was only a few hundred[br]dollars a year, 0:00:42.110,0:00:44.610 almost everyone was very poor, 0:00:44.610,0:00:48.410 people would ride bicycles[br]rather than driving cars, 0:00:48.410,0:00:51.330 and even starvation[br]was still a possibility. 0:00:51.840,0:00:54.570 So China introduces[br]more private property, 0:00:54.570,0:00:56.560 more capitalistic incentives, 0:00:56.560,0:00:59.130 it privatizes[br]some of its agriculture, 0:00:59.130,0:01:02.270 it allows more manufacturing,[br]more exporting. 0:01:02.270,0:01:06.500 Overall, China starts moving[br]toward being a modern economy, 0:01:06.500,0:01:07.720 a normal economy. 0:01:08.110,0:01:10.400 And once these reforms are underway, 0:01:10.400,0:01:13.360 China is growing[br]at really an astonishing pace. 0:01:13.360,0:01:15.780 For a lot of the last 35 years, 0:01:15.780,0:01:19.440 China has been growing[br]at around 10% a year. 0:01:19.440,0:01:20.600 That's amazing! 0:01:20.600,0:01:22.360 The American economy typically 0:01:22.360,0:01:25.000 doesn't grow[br]at much more than 2% a year. 0:01:25.000,0:01:27.000 At 10% a year growth, 0:01:27.000,0:01:31.100 that means that living standards[br]double about every 7 years. 0:01:31.100,0:01:33.650 So if you go back,[br]you keep on visiting China, 0:01:33.650,0:01:36.460 it's as if every 7 years,[br]every 10 years, 0:01:36.460,0:01:38.900 you get to see[br]an entirely new country. 0:01:38.900,0:01:42.000 For me personally, China is the most[br]interesting country in the world 0:01:42.000,0:01:44.220 to visit as an economist. 0:01:44.220,0:01:45.830 They have grown at a pace 0:01:45.830,0:01:47.770 that no other place has matched. 0:01:47.770,0:01:52.540 Imagine about 10% a year growth[br]for almost 35 years. 0:01:52.540,0:01:54.780 That has transformed everything. 0:01:54.780,0:01:56.200 So even year to year, 0:01:56.200,0:02:00.630 parts of a city or a neighborhood[br]can simply change before your eyes. 0:02:01.020,0:02:03.220 So you see human progress at work, 0:02:03.220,0:02:06.930 you see what took some parts[br]of the world centuries to achieve, 0:02:06.930,0:02:10.000 happening in decades or even years. 0:02:10.000,0:02:13.020 You see human hope[br]and faith and progress, 0:02:13.020,0:02:16.240 and a deep underlying optimism[br]about what is possible. 0:02:16.240,0:02:19.490 So the Chinese economy[br]during these years of rapid growth -- 0:02:19.490,0:02:21.440 it had some very notable features. 0:02:21.440,0:02:23.370 It had high levels of savings, 0:02:23.370,0:02:25.890 it had super high[br]levels of investment, 0:02:25.890,0:02:28.320 and they built lots[br]and lots of infrastructure. 0:02:28.320,0:02:30.360 And those were all very positive. 0:02:30.360,0:02:33.110 It's wonderful how good[br]the infrastructure is in China. 0:02:33.110,0:02:37.000 I would much rather ride[br]on a Chinese high-speed rail train 0:02:37.000,0:02:39.560 than take the Amtrak[br]from Washington, D.C. 0:02:39.560,0:02:40.580 to New York City. 0:02:40.580,0:02:43.140 The Chinese train[br]is quicker, nicer, 0:02:43.140,0:02:45.230 and it's far more likely[br]to be on time. 0:02:45.700,0:02:47.000 But here’s the thing -- 0:02:47.000,0:02:49.040 for a long time[br]China has been investing 0:02:49.040,0:02:51.870 almost half of its GDP every year. 0:02:51.870,0:02:53.510 Half![br]That's astonishing. 0:02:53.510,0:02:55.000 When you think about it, 0:02:55.000,0:02:57.000 it is remarkably hard, every year, 0:02:57.000,0:03:00.690 to invest half of your GDP[br]and to invest it well. 0:03:00.920,0:03:03.540 In the early years[br]of China's economic growth, 0:03:03.540,0:03:06.610 the required investments were[br]pretty simple and straightforward. 0:03:06.610,0:03:08.600 They needed to build more homes, 0:03:08.600,0:03:10.700 they needed[br]to put in more train lines, 0:03:10.700,0:03:12.690 they needed to build more roads, 0:03:12.690,0:03:15.000 they needed to equip[br]their urban centers 0:03:15.000,0:03:17.970 with all of the normal features[br]of everyday modern life. 0:03:17.970,0:03:20.940 And the Chinese government[br]did a really good job 0:03:20.940,0:03:22.490 at all of those things. 0:03:22.490,0:03:26.270 It's a big reason why, actually,[br]China's growth has been so strong. 0:03:26.270,0:03:27.910 But the problem is this -- 0:03:27.910,0:03:30.660 the way decision-making[br]in China is set up -- 0:03:30.660,0:03:34.260 it's very good for achieving things [br]with a kind of checklist -- 0:03:34.260,0:03:38.060 known tasks that require a lot[br]of resources and a lot of effort, 0:03:38.060,0:03:40.890 and you throw everything[br]you have at getting it done, 0:03:40.890,0:03:42.680 and you get it done pretty quickly. 0:03:42.680,0:03:44.550 China has been great at that. 0:03:44.550,0:03:47.530 But now, a lot of that[br]low-hanging fruit is gone. 0:03:47.530,0:03:50.000 A lot of the infrastructure[br]which China needs 0:03:50.000,0:03:51.620 already has been built, 0:03:51.620,0:03:55.000 but now their economy[br]needs more complex investments. 0:03:55.000,0:03:57.000 They need a better[br]healthcare system, 0:03:57.000,0:04:01.000 they need better retail services,[br]they need more startups. 0:04:01.000,0:04:02.000 And in these areas, 0:04:02.000,0:04:05.000 there’s not a simple [br]checklist way to get it done. 0:04:05.000,0:04:08.180 It's not just a question[br]of throwing resources at the problem. 0:04:08.180,0:04:11.520 You need more trial and error,[br]more experimentation, 0:04:11.520,0:04:14.040 you need more[br]of a market discovery process 0:04:14.040,0:04:16.740 to figure out which[br]are the profitable investments 0:04:16.740,0:04:18.880 and which[br]are the unprofitable ones. 0:04:19.060,0:04:21.280 And it’s hard to plan[br]and manage those 0:04:21.280,0:04:23.460 the same ways[br]that the Chinese did that 0:04:23.460,0:04:25.300 with all of their infrastructure. 0:04:25.970,0:04:28.810 Here is another problem[br]with the Chinese economic model. 0:04:28.810,0:04:32.680 If your economy grows[br]10% a year or so for so long, 0:04:32.680,0:04:35.000 businessmen[br]and also your governments -- 0:04:35.000,0:04:37.000 they start thinking[br]there isn't much risk. 0:04:37.000,0:04:40.750 At 10% growth, [br]there's so much forward impetus. 0:04:40.750,0:04:43.190 You can have a business plan[br]with a lot of mistakes, 0:04:43.190,0:04:46.960 you can have a lot of debt,[br]you can be very poor on execution, 0:04:46.960,0:04:49.940 but a lot of those investments[br]are still going to make money 0:04:49.940,0:04:51.730 at about 10% growth. 0:04:51.730,0:04:54.355 So what happens is,[br]the underlying economy 0:04:54.355,0:04:56.375 loses some of its discipline. 0:04:56.375,0:04:58.865 People get sloppy,[br]they overextend, 0:04:58.865,0:05:00.780 they become too optimistic. 0:05:00.780,0:05:03.530 They think they can make[br]any investment or any decision 0:05:03.530,0:05:05.910 and somehow[br]it will pay off or be validated, 0:05:05.910,0:05:07.430 just because everyone else 0:05:07.430,0:05:10.000 is pushing[br]on that 10% rate of growth. 0:05:10.000,0:05:12.190 A turning point[br]for the Chinese economy 0:05:12.190,0:05:13.840 comes in 2009 0:05:13.840,0:05:18.030 when there’s a significant recession[br]in many other parts of the world. 0:05:18.030,0:05:20.000 At the time,[br]a lot of observers thought, 0:05:20.000,0:05:22.960 "Well, there’s going to be[br]a big recession in China too." 0:05:22.960,0:05:24.400 But there wasn't. 0:05:24.400,0:05:27.460 The Chinese government[br]undertook some very special steps 0:05:27.460,0:05:30.900 to avoid or maybe[br]just postpone that recession. 0:05:30.900,0:05:32.370 So the Chinese government 0:05:32.370,0:05:34.420 spent a lot more money[br]on infrastructure 0:05:34.420,0:05:36.330 at a time where maybe 0:05:36.330,0:05:39.230 less infrastructure investment[br]was called for. 0:05:39.640,0:05:41.900 The Chinese government,[br]the state-owned banks, 0:05:41.900,0:05:43.420 the state-owned companies, 0:05:43.420,0:05:46.660 acted in concert to encourage[br]a lot more borrowing, 0:05:46.660,0:05:48.000 a lot more debt. 0:05:48.000,0:05:50.710 And it's true --[br]this did spur spending, 0:05:50.710,0:05:52.490 it boosted investment, 0:05:52.490,0:05:55.000 kept the economy[br]running at a higher level, 0:05:55.000,0:05:57.000 but actually debt rose to the point 0:05:57.000,0:05:58.710 where it was too high 0:05:58.710,0:06:02.280 relative to the rates of return[br]available on those projects. 0:06:02.660,0:06:05.440 So now, we don't have[br]very exact measures, 0:06:05.440,0:06:08.620 but it seems that[br]total Chinese debt of all kinds 0:06:08.620,0:06:11.520 is well over 200% of GDP -- 0:06:11.520,0:06:15.000 possibly as high as 300% of GDP. 0:06:15.000,0:06:17.000 And maybe that can work 0:06:17.000,0:06:18.930 when your underlying[br]rate of growth is 10%, 0:06:18.930,0:06:21.940 but as your underlying[br]rate of economic growth falls, 0:06:21.940,0:06:25.650 it's harder and harder[br]for that debt to be sustainable. 0:06:26.120,0:06:28.270 So how much is China growing today? 0:06:28.270,0:06:30.000 Well, it depends who you listen to. 0:06:30.000,0:06:32.860 The Chinese government, circa 2015, 0:06:32.860,0:06:37.000 is claiming China[br]is still growing at about 7% a year. 0:06:37.670,0:06:40.000 But not many external[br]observers believe this, 0:06:40.000,0:06:42.600 because they’re looking[br]at other pieces of data. 0:06:42.600,0:06:46.140 No one is sure what the real rate[br]of economic growth is, 0:06:46.140,0:06:49.460 but what we know is that [br]it is probably sharply lower 0:06:49.460,0:06:52.880 and China is now entering [br]a great recession. 0:06:53.960,0:06:55.600 To track this recession, 0:06:55.600,0:06:59.670 we can keep in mind[br]five issues or problem areas -- 0:06:59.670,0:07:02.690 the real estate bubble,[br]the stock market bubble, 0:07:02.690,0:07:05.490 the excess level of municipal debt, 0:07:05.490,0:07:08.320 excess capacity[br]among Chinese businesses, 0:07:08.320,0:07:10.440 and finally,[br]the risk of capital flight. 0:07:10.810,0:07:14.080 The first of these[br]is the real estate bubble. 0:07:14.500,0:07:16.080 Chinese property prices 0:07:16.080,0:07:18.540 became too high[br]in many Chinese cities 0:07:18.540,0:07:20.000 and China overbuilt. 0:07:20.890,0:07:24.370 I took a train trip from Beijing[br]through the center of the country -- 0:07:24.370,0:07:25.830 a six hour train trip. 0:07:25.830,0:07:29.390 And along the way,[br]I kept on seeing city after city 0:07:29.390,0:07:32.700 with dozens and dozens[br]of apartment blocks. 0:07:32.700,0:07:36.020 You would see so many buildings,[br]but so few people, 0:07:36.020,0:07:39.150 so few retail stores, so few cars. 0:07:39.150,0:07:42.000 Many of those cities[br]are grossly overbuilt, 0:07:42.000,0:07:44.440 relative to what can be supported. 0:07:44.970,0:07:48.730 The Chinese stock market bubble[br]is another potential problem. 0:07:48.730,0:07:51.990 For a while, Chinese[br]stock prices were rising rapidly, 0:07:52.000,0:07:54.210 but then they fell rapidly too. 0:07:54.210,0:07:57.800 Too many people were encouraged[br]to buy stocks on margin, 0:07:57.800,0:08:00.490 the ratio of prices[br]to corporate earnings 0:08:00.490,0:08:02.000 has been extremely high, 0:08:02.000,0:08:05.290 and probably those stock prices[br]will continue to fall 0:08:05.290,0:08:06.910 at a pretty rapid pace. 0:08:06.910,0:08:10.000 That will depress consumer [br]spending, lower confidence 0:08:10.000,0:08:12.680 and it also will be a problem[br]for some Chinese banks. 0:08:13.170,0:08:15.400 The third problem is municipal debt. 0:08:15.820,0:08:18.930 No one really knows exactly[br]how big a problem this is. 0:08:18.930,0:08:21.850 We do know that[br]Chinese municipal governments 0:08:21.850,0:08:24.260 were not supposed[br]to be able to borrow money -- 0:08:24.260,0:08:26.660 they were supposed[br]to run balanced budgets. 0:08:26.660,0:08:30.430 But in fact, a lot of them ended up[br]borrowing money off the books, 0:08:30.430,0:08:33.640 and in fact they were encouraged[br]by the central government to do this, 0:08:33.640,0:08:37.000 to keep up that expenditure[br]on all the infrastructure. 0:08:37.000,0:08:38.200 But what’s happened is, 0:08:38.200,0:08:41.590 they borrowed a lot more than[br]right now they are able to pay back. 0:08:42.400,0:08:45.420 And the central government[br]in Beijing is feeling the need 0:08:45.420,0:08:48.050 to try to bail out[br]these municipal governments. 0:08:48.050,0:08:50.580 Another big problem[br]in the Chinese economy 0:08:50.580,0:08:52.740 is what I would call[br]"excess capacity". 0:08:52.740,0:08:55.640 That is, in too many sectors[br]you have too many firms, 0:08:55.640,0:08:57.370 you have too much overconfidence, 0:08:57.370,0:08:59.650 too much stimulation of investment, 0:08:59.650,0:09:02.310 and a lot of those companies[br]probably are not profitable -- 0:09:02.310,0:09:05.006 they're being kept afloat[br]by cheap credit 0:09:05.006,0:09:06.783 from Chinese state-owned banks, 0:09:06.783,0:09:09.640 or they may be Chinese [br]state-owned companies themselves, 0:09:09.640,0:09:12.350 which have political privileges[br]of various kinds. 0:09:12.350,0:09:15.000 But a lot of those[br]companies right now -- 0:09:15.000,0:09:17.670 they’re not making[br]really productive investments 0:09:17.670,0:09:20.480 in the kinds of things[br]that Chinese consumers want. 0:09:21.210,0:09:23.170 If you look at price indices, 0:09:23.170,0:09:26.320 if you look at the index[br]for producer prices in China -- 0:09:26.320,0:09:28.750 that's one measure[br]of this excess capacity. 0:09:28.750,0:09:31.310 That index actually[br]has been falling now 0:09:31.310,0:09:34.150 for over three years running,[br]falling every month. 0:09:34.150,0:09:37.550 That's a sign that too many[br]producer goods have been built 0:09:37.550,0:09:39.720 for what can be sustained profitably. 0:09:39.720,0:09:43.000 So maybe the biggest[br]potential problem is capital flight. 0:09:43.000,0:09:45.230 There’s a risk that capital within China, 0:09:45.230,0:09:47.830 foreign capital,[br]but especially domestic capital, 0:09:47.830,0:09:49.480 seeks to leave the country 0:09:49.480,0:09:52.240 out of fear of China's[br]economic problems. 0:09:52.240,0:09:54.660 But if too much[br]of this capital leaves the country, 0:09:54.660,0:09:57.110 that actually makes[br]the problems much worse, 0:09:57.110,0:09:59.710 as we saw[br]with the Asian financial crisis 0:09:59.710,0:10:02.200 in the 1990s for other countries. 0:10:02.840,0:10:04.740 The big danger in China 0:10:04.740,0:10:07.000 is simply that[br]capital flight accelerates. 0:10:07.690,0:10:08.930 But in the meantime, 0:10:08.930,0:10:10.970 think of the problems[br]the Chinese government has 0:10:10.970,0:10:12.670 trying to manage all of this. 0:10:12.670,0:10:15.640 There are a lot of firms[br]which are no longer profitable, 0:10:15.640,0:10:18.380 but the government’s reluctant[br]to let them go bankrupt 0:10:18.380,0:10:20.000 because of fear of unemployment 0:10:20.000,0:10:22.800 and also alienating[br]special interest groups. 0:10:22.800,0:10:25.940 There’s too much credit and too much[br]borrowing in the economy, 0:10:25.940,0:10:27.510 but if that bubble is burst, 0:10:27.510,0:10:30.560 well, then economic activity[br]will fall all the more. 0:10:30.560,0:10:32.930 There's been too much[br]investment in real estate, 0:10:32.930,0:10:35.710 there’s too much continuing[br]reliance on infrastructure, 0:10:35.710,0:10:37.090 and somehow the government 0:10:37.090,0:10:39.400 is supposed to juggle[br]all of these balls at once 0:10:39.400,0:10:41.650 and stop the recession[br]from getting worse. 0:10:41.650,0:10:44.090 When you put[br]all of those issues together, 0:10:44.090,0:10:46.630 it is indeed[br]a very complex picture, 0:10:46.630,0:10:48.380 very difficult to understand. 0:10:48.380,0:10:51.910 But what we see is that[br]the world's number two economy 0:10:51.910,0:10:55.340 really is running a very[br]serious risk of a recession 0:10:55.340,0:10:56.690 which will be deep, 0:10:56.690,0:10:59.680 and also may last really[br]quite some number of years. 0:11:00.000,0:11:05.000 My personal view is that, at this point, these [br]problems are so deeply baked into the Chinese economy, 0:11:05.000,0:11:10.000 there is no way to set this all right. [br]But still there are some major reasons 0:11:10.000,0:11:15.000 to be optimistic looking forward. First, [br]the most important source of wealth in any economy is 0:11:15.000,0:11:20.000 human capital. The Chinese have [br]done a fantastic job investing 0:11:20.000,0:11:25.000 in their own human capital. So from [br]the economist’s point of view, which values 0:11:25.000,0:11:30.000 human capital above all else, as the most fundamental [br]source of national wealth. When we look at the future 0:11:30.000,0:11:35.000 of China in the medium-term prospects, [br]we really should be optimistic 0:11:35.000,0:11:40.000 or even cheery. Because China has [br]invested very well in human capital. 0:11:40.000,0:11:45.000 Those investments will survive the [br]current recession intact, and we have 0:11:45.000,0:11:50.000 every reason to believe that China will be extending the [br]talents, energies, drives, and ambitions of its people, 0:12:22.000,0:12:25.000 Subtitles by the Amara.org community