0:00:00.000,0:00:19.290 36C3 preroll music 0:00:19.810,0:00:26.710 Herald: Okay, that was fast two minutes.[br]The next talk is going to be on DC to DC 0:00:26.710,0:00:39.640 converters by Zoé Bőle. She's an[br]enthusiast for open hardware and fan of 0:00:39.640,0:00:50.010 DIY and has been working on the topic of[br]DC to DC converters for a long time and I 0:00:50.010,0:00:58.900 have to keep on talking now because it[br]seems that her computer is not really 0:00:58.900,0:01:07.420 communicating with the presentation[br]device. We do have a picture but we don't 0:01:07.420,0:01:29.490 get it moving.[br]troubleshooting whispers in background 0:01:29.490,0:01:32.759 Herald: While they're still having some 0:01:32.759,0:01:38.950 issues up here I might remind you that it[br]is very helpful if you take your trash 0:01:38.950,0:01:44.969 with you and now please welcome Zoë and we[br]are ready to inaudible. 0:01:44.969,0:01:47.589 Give her a warm hand! 0:01:54.503,0:01:59.740 Zoé Bőle: Hi, my name is Zoë and this is 0:01:59.740,0:02:05.520 the first time I'm standing here in a[br]chaos stage so I'm a little bit, like, 0:02:05.520,0:02:13.030 anxious but I'm here to talk to you…[br]applause 0:02:13.030,0:02:23.110 Zoé: I'm here to talk about these DC[br]converters and the talk's called "DC/DC 0:02:23.110,0:02:28.100 converters and everything you wanted to[br]know about them" but it's unlikely I can 0:02:28.100,0:02:36.260 fit everything into a 50 minute talk, so[br]it's like not everything, but my goal is 0:02:36.260,0:02:42.540 to provide you some starting points and[br]give you an overview and hopefully if you 0:02:42.540,0:02:50.150 already worked with DC/DC's then you're[br]also not gonna be annoyed and not gonna be 0:02:50.150,0:02:57.840 bored. Before I start with the DC/DC[br]topic, I would like ask you to be 0:02:57.840,0:03:04.159 excellent to each other and this is not[br]related to my talk but I hear people 0:03:04.159,0:03:08.939 starting clapping when someone broke the[br]bottle accidentally and I think it's super 0:03:08.939,0:03:18.829 not cool. Yesterday I saw someone breaking[br]down in tears because they just broke a 0:03:18.829,0:03:23.700 bottle and everybody was clapping and[br]paying attention to them 0:03:23.700,0:03:31.959 and that was like harassment. So, please[br]don't be the one who starts clapping. But 0:03:31.959,0:03:42.019 also I'm not here to forbid you to clap[br]and… just know what's happening. So, 0:03:42.019,0:03:49.010 brief introduction to DC/DC's and why:[br]quite often you need different voltages 0:03:49.010,0:03:56.459 than what you have available. For example[br]you have a microcontroller or you have an 0:03:56.459,0:04:02.260 FPGA and you work with the battery[br]then you need to provide a different 0:04:02.260,0:04:14.950 voltage for that circuit and the trivial[br]solution is to just use two resistors and 0:04:14.950,0:04:21.160 make a voltage divider, but this is[br]totally unsuited for power delivery 0:04:21.160,0:04:27.600 because as you start loading the output,[br]the output voltage starts dropping. Also, 0:04:27.600,0:04:36.930 this circuit dissipates power even if[br]there is no useful load on the output. So 0:04:36.930,0:04:44.400 this is only useful for signals and to[br]have some kind of feedback and regulate 0:04:44.400,0:04:52.389 the output to a desired level you can use[br]an LDO, which is the same thing but you 0:04:52.389,0:05:01.470 control, one resistor – very simplified –[br]to always keep a desired output voltage. 0:05:01.470,0:05:08.780 Of course this can only go lower than your[br]input and your efficiency is limited to 0:05:08.780,0:05:17.383 the ratio of the output voltage and the[br]input voltage, and this is even in ideal 0:05:17.383,0:05:26.400 situation. So, instead of burning up power[br]in your converter you can just use 0:05:26.400,0:05:31.740 switches and this is the idea behind[br]switching supplies that you use a switch 0:05:31.740,0:05:36.200 element which is either [br]fully on or fully off. 0:05:36.200,0:05:41.340 And if it's fully on then there[br]is no loss on a switch and if it's 0:05:41.340,0:05:46.300 fully off there is no current flowing[br]through it so there is no loss either. 0:05:46.300,0:05:51.560 There are some practical problems[br]with this approach but 0:05:51.560,0:06:01.639 but this works for LEDs and heaters if your[br]switching frequency is high enough. 0:06:01.639,0:06:08.930 To think of a DC/DC converter is a[br]box with four terminals. It has an input 0:06:08.930,0:06:15.750 side and an output side. Right now I'm[br]talking about buck step-down DC/DC 0:06:15.750,0:06:21.711 converters which are non isolated. This[br]means the ground in the input side and the 0:06:21.711,0:06:31.719 ground on the output side are connected[br]together inside and this limits certain uses. 0:06:31.719,0:06:37.940 Also you should not connect these[br]DC/DC converters in series, so if you have 0:06:37.940,0:06:44.070 a block like this and you think "oh, I[br]could use two or three of them and just 0:06:44.070,0:06:50.080 connect them in series to give it higher[br]input voltages," that's gonna blow up very 0:06:50.080,0:07:03.340 quickly. A block looks like this on a[br]screen and might look like this in reality. 0:07:03.340,0:07:13.296 Let's take a look inside. So all of these[br]DC/DC converters consist of a power stage, 0:07:13.296,0:07:23.620 a control system, and the feedback.[br]The feedback is there to provide a 0:07:23.620,0:07:31.169 regulated output regardless of the[br]operating conditions. So what's inside a 0:07:31.169,0:07:38.460 power stage? To have a deeper look inside[br]we can consider this asynchronous buck 0:07:38.460,0:07:46.099 converter where a switching element – a[br]MOSFET – is controlled by an analog and 0:07:46.099,0:07:53.490 digital circuitry. Feedback is provided[br]from the output voltage and we see a diode 0:07:53.490,0:07:59.490 in the middle which I'm going to talk[br]about soon. You also see two capacitors on 0:07:59.490,0:08:04.430 the input side and on the output side,[br]which are also very important. 0:08:04.430,0:08:07.740 More about them later. 0:08:07.740,0:08:14.790 Let's consider the first situation:[br]the switch is on – this is 0:08:14.790,0:08:26.289 so-called "the on state" – and this forms[br]a loop from the input to the output. The 0:08:26.289,0:08:36.780 input capacitor we can neglect and in an[br]ideal situation the output capacitor is, 0:08:36.780,0:08:46.410 um, I will talk more about more about the[br]output later. 0:08:46.410,0:09:07.910 pause 0:09:07.910,0:09:14.443 All right, I don't wanna make this into a[br]lecture and everybody is sleeping in 0:09:14.443,0:09:19.530 and the fun part will start very soon. 0:09:19.530,0:09:26.580 So, this DC/DC has two states: either the [br]switch is on or switch is off. Right now 0:09:26.580,0:09:30.880 the switch is on and you see that the [br]current can flow from the input through 0:09:30.880,0:09:41.430 this inductor to the output. The inductor[br]resists the change of current. It's like 0:09:41.430,0:09:49.339 pushing a heavy mass and once it starts[br]moving it wants to keep moving. That's why 0:09:49.339,0:09:57.610 in this "on" state the input current flows[br]through the inductor and starts to 0:09:57.610,0:10:06.370 increase while it's also flowing to the[br]output. Then the converter turns the 0:10:06.370,0:10:14.860 switch off, which comes to the off state,[br]and now the diode comes into play, which 0:10:14.860,0:10:22.940 will keep the current recirculating. In[br]this "off" state there is no current from 0:10:22.940,0:10:29.390 the power from the source to the output,[br]but the output is still powered from this 0:10:29.390,0:10:40.720 decaying magnetic field through the[br]inductor. Sometimes you hear about 0:10:40.720,0:10:48.779 synchronous DC/DC converters where this[br]diode is replaced by another switch. 0:10:48.779,0:10:58.000 In that case efficiency's increased since[br]the voltage drop across MOSFET is lower 0:10:58.000,0:11:04.506 than the forward voltage of the diode. In [br]this case, as you can see, current is still 0:11:04.506,0:11:10.184 being delivered to the output. And this is[br]the big advantage of the buck converter 0:11:10.184,0:11:16.760 that in both an "on" and an "off" state [br]the output is sourced with current. 0:11:16.760,0:11:25.149 What the output capacitor[br]does there is it provides the difference 0:11:25.149,0:11:33.070 between the inductor current. On the lower[br]end you can see the inductor current. 0:11:33.070,0:11:39.320 As the switch is on it ramps up and as switch[br]is off it ramps down, and in the middle 0:11:39.320,0:11:48.930 you see this line which is the output[br]current. So you see these triangles and 0:11:48.930,0:11:57.040 this is what's provided by the output[br]capacitor. Alright, so this is an actual 0:11:57.040,0:12:01.621 part without the simplifications and I[br]would like to talk a bit about the 0:12:01.621,0:12:08.010 reference voltage and how that works. So[br]this device creates an internal 0.7V 0:12:08.010,0:12:18.149 reference and you can program the output[br]voltage by choosing R1 and R2 on the 0:12:18.149,0:12:27.360 left side so at your desired output[br]exactly 0.7V will be at this voltage 0:12:27.360,0:12:36.726 divider and this converter will keep[br]regulating to reach the state. 0:12:45.190,0:12:53.351 If you're looking for DC/DC converter to[br]your next project then you might see 0:12:53.351,0:12:58.152 a bunch of parameters and [br]I'm gonna talk about those. 0:12:58.152,0:13:04.243 So first you see a 3.3 volt 2 amp [br]converter. What does it mean? 0:13:07.065,0:13:12.389 This depends on how and [br]who specifies that output 0:13:12.389,0:13:19.110 because someone says it's two amps if it[br]can provide two amps for a second and 0:13:19.110,0:13:25.220 someone says it's two amps if it can[br]continuously provide the two amps even in 0:13:25.220,0:13:32.670 a warm environment, so it's important to[br]talk about if it's a peak or continuous 0:13:32.670,0:13:40.399 current rating. Then there is this so[br]called "output ripple." You saw that 0:13:40.399,0:13:48.760 switching action going on and off and that[br]will create a ripple on the output voltage 0:13:48.760,0:13:58.009 so it won't be 3.3V it will be oscillating[br]around that. This can be as low as a few 0:13:58.009,0:14:07.740 microvolts and as high as a few volts,[br]depending on the parameters. Also there is 0:14:07.740,0:14:18.040 a voltage accuracy: maybe it's labeled [br]as 3.3V but actually it's 3.5 or 3.0. 0:14:18.040,0:14:30.420 Load regulation: it's maybe 3.3V when it's[br]unloaded and as you increase the output it 0:14:30.420,0:14:37.889 starts changing the output voltage. There[br]is the line regulation which means the 0:14:37.889,0:14:46.570 input voltage has influence over the[br]output, which is undesired. Then there is 0:14:46.570,0:14:52.800 this maximum input voltage rating. Let's[br]say this converter can tolerate seven 0:14:52.800,0:15:00.260 volts on its input so you think "oh let's[br]just hook it up to USB, that's 5V, right?" 0:15:00.260,0:15:12.399 Yes, but no, because when you use cables[br]and non-ideal conditions, you can create 0:15:12.399,0:15:24.190 transients which overshoot the voltage [br]possibly way above this maximum rating and 0:15:24.190,0:15:33.180 this can lead to very nasty surprises.[br]Because sometimes they fail short, which 0:15:33.180,0:15:38.330 means they connect their input[br]directly to their output. 0:15:38.330,0:15:45.360 In this case the device you connected to[br]the converter might also go up in flames. 0:15:45.360,0:15:50.886 So mind the transients and always[br]have some margin between 0:15:50.886,0:15:57.824 your desired input voltage and the[br]maximum the converter can tolerate. 0:15:57.824,0:16:06.800 Then you might see 95% efficiency[br]and that's also question at 0:16:06.800,0:16:18.380 which load because at maximum specified[br]load it will be lower, and at lower/less load it 0:16:18.380,0:16:23.810 will be also lower, so there is this[br]efficiency peak. That marketing people love 0:16:23.810,0:16:29.170 to specify. There's also this so called[br]"quiescent current" which means your 0:16:29.170,0:16:38.720 converter draws current from your input[br]even when there is nothing on its output 0:16:38.720,0:16:45.831 and if it runs from a battery this can[br]drain your battery in days or weeks, so 0:16:45.831,0:16:53.910 you must pay attention to this. And there is[br]this other factor called "switching 0:16:53.910,0:17:00.600 frequency" so how fast, how often the[br]internal switch changes state, but this 0:17:00.600,0:17:06.290 might not be a constant value, especially[br]with the previously mentioned quiescent 0:17:06.290,0:17:16.960 current feature, the converters that excel[br]at having a low quiescent current don't 0:17:16.960,0:17:23.640 have fixed switching frequency, so you[br]might have noise at different frequency 0:17:23.640,0:17:35.040 bands and disturb your circuits or radio[br]noise. Let's talk about a few features, 0:17:35.040,0:17:43.130 you might want to look for. "Enable": enable[br]functionality. This is very useful to 0:17:43.130,0:17:50.600 easily disable your DC/DC converter and [br]without having to interrupt either the 0:17:50.600,0:18:01.900 input side or the output side. Let's say[br]you have a 20 amp output converter – you 0:18:01.900,0:18:09.080 really don't want to switch the 20 amp[br]with a mechanical big switch. Instead 0:18:09.080,0:18:15.650 of that you have a logic input to[br]your DC/DC converter with which you can 0:18:15.650,0:18:23.440 turn this completely off. Then there is so[br]called "undervoltage lockout": you might 0:18:23.440,0:18:31.750 want to prevent it from running below a[br]certain input voltage to prevent draining 0:18:31.750,0:18:40.180 your battery too deep and turning it[br]completely off. There's "power good" that 0:18:40.180,0:18:45.800 can provide information to your processor[br]that the output voltage is in regulation 0:18:45.800,0:18:51.470 and stabilized. So if you hook up the[br]"power good" output to let's say a reset 0:18:51.470,0:18:58.680 line or "enable", then you can be sure[br]that the output voltage is always stable 0:18:58.680,0:19:07.270 and your processors are not going to go[br]into glitch. Overtemperature shutdown is 0:19:07.270,0:19:16.050 very common these days and that makes[br]these tiny converters almost 0:19:16.050,0:19:22.460 indestructible because if they get too hot[br]they just turn off completely before they 0:19:22.460,0:19:30.770 get permanently damaged. Efficient[br]standby: this is the so called low 0:19:30.770,0:19:37.760 quiescent current option. That means if[br]your output is off, your processor is 0:19:37.760,0:19:45.750 sleeping, then it willl reduce switching[br]action to reduce switching losses and 0:19:45.750,0:19:51.900 might only draw a few micro amps or even[br]nano amps. Very important for battery 0:19:51.900,0:19:59.130 powered applications. Then you might see[br]overcurrent protection which makes the 0:19:59.130,0:20:04.800 output very robust. You can even make a[br]short circuit and the overcurrent protection 0:20:04.800,0:20:17.420 will limit the output current to this[br]value and this prevents damaging of the 0:20:17.420,0:20:24.440 converter and also damage to the cables[br]and switches if they are rated to 0:20:24.440,0:20:33.000 withstand the overcurrent protection[br]limit. Now let's talk about noise. The 0:20:33.000,0:20:43.740 output ripple is not exactly noise. Output[br]ripple is there because the output 0:20:43.740,0:20:55.160 capacitor is non-ideal and usually this[br]this is very low on a properly designed 0:20:55.160,0:21:02.440 converter but if you measure the output[br]you might see spikes on the output and 0:21:02.440,0:21:14.870 that's not ripple. That's conducted EMI[br]because on that inductor the windings are 0:21:14.870,0:21:21.780 coupled very closely, there is some[br]capacitive coupling between the wires, so 0:21:21.780,0:21:28.800 the digital on-off action from the[br]switches will propagate to some extent to 0:21:28.800,0:21:35.250 the output. This is attenuated by the[br]capacitors but they cannot be completely 0:21:35.250,0:21:42.030 filtered off and you will see the[br]switching frequency and even upper 0:21:42.030,0:21:50.790 harmonics of it but this can also be[br]filtered. There is also radiated EMI, 0:21:50.790,0:21:56.980 which comes mostly from the switching node[br]and capacitive coupling to the ground 0:21:56.980,0:22:05.920 plane, and also the inductor – if it's not[br]shielded then a magnetic field can also 0:22:05.920,0:22:15.960 radiate out and cause interference. On[br]this picture what you see is that gray 0:22:15.960,0:22:27.280 block, that's a shielded inductor, and the[br]two blue connectors at the end of this PCB 0:22:27.280,0:22:34.750 are screw terminals. I personally advise[br]against using this style of screw 0:22:34.750,0:22:41.700 terminals because the wires can easily[br]slip out, make a short, or you don't 0:22:41.700,0:22:52.900 notice that they are not connected, so I[br]prefer a different style of connectors. 0:22:52.900,0:23:00.350 It's good to know about non-ideal[br]components. The capacitors that are used 0:23:00.350,0:23:10.120 have a so called DC bias. These multi-[br]layer ceramic capacitors are very 0:23:10.120,0:23:17.720 sensitive to the DC voltage across the[br]terminals and if they are rated, let's say 0:23:17.720,0:23:24.830 20 microfarads, at the rated voltage they[br]might lose up to 90 percent of their 0:23:24.830,0:23:30.661 capacity. So you always have to pick a[br]capacitor that's rated to a higher voltage 0:23:30.661,0:23:38.330 than what your output is to compensate for[br]this effect, and you also need to put more 0:23:38.330,0:23:47.770 capacitors at your output than what you[br]would think in an ideal situation. Mind 0:23:47.770,0:23:55.001 the transients! As I said, if you plan to[br]hotplug, connect to live wires to your 0:23:55.001,0:24:01.290 converter, you have to keep in mind the[br]inrush current. Those capacitors, when 0:24:01.290,0:24:11.750 they are fully discharged and you connect[br]that to the input, then they will try to 0:24:11.750,0:24:21.490 charge to the input voltage as fast[br]as the cabling lets that happen, and the 0:24:21.490,0:24:28.980 cables have inductance which will store[br]energy and overshoot the input voltage. 0:24:28.980,0:24:39.350 When fiddling with MOSFETs, don't forget[br]the ESD protection. MOSFETs are very 0:24:39.350,0:24:49.790 sensitive at their gate, because the oxide[br]layer is so thin that even 20V voltage is 0:24:49.790,0:24:57.450 enough to break it down, and a 20V ESD[br]strike is something you probably don't 0:24:57.450,0:25:08.920 even notice, but it can damage the[br]MOSFETs. And ever avoid the 7800 series 0:25:08.920,0:25:17.481 LDO, because it's a very old part and I[br]still see it in new designs, while there 0:25:17.481,0:25:25.930 are much better ones with better[br]regulation, less quiescent current, and 0:25:25.930,0:25:39.990 it's also an LDO, so it's like just[br]marginally related to DC/DCs. If 0:25:39.990,0:25:46.300 you make your own DC/DC converters instead[br]of buying one, you should read the 0:25:46.300,0:25:57.670 datasheet and follow the instructions[br]because the manufacturers give you a 0:25:57.670,0:26:05.340 proven tested layout, which is typically[br]good advice to follow and you should only 0:26:05.340,0:26:25.900 deviate from that if you know what you're[br]doing. I'm sorry 0:26:25.900,0:26:48.300 pause[br]Alright, that mostly concludes what I was trying 0:26:48.300,0:26:56.810 to talk about and now it's time for your[br]questions. 0:26:56.810,0:27:02.073 applause 0:27:02.073,0:27:09.030 Herald: Now there are two microphones one[br]there and one over there, usually they 0:27:09.030,0:27:18.720 are… ah, here comes the light. Are there[br]any questions? How about the signal angel, 0:27:18.720,0:27:25.190 does the internet have any questions? The[br]internet doesn't have a question but 0:27:25.190,0:27:29.110 here's one up front.[br]Q: What would you recommend instead of 0:27:29.110,0:27:35.650 screw terminals?[br]Zoé: That's a very good question and that 0:27:35.650,0:27:42.290 really depends on the application. You can[br]have different kind of screw terminals, 0:27:42.290,0:27:56.370 which use either crimped therminals on the[br]cable so you have a cable shoe. 0:27:56.370,0:28:01.640 Q: Like a ring or something?[br]Zoé: Yes. Because then there is no way that it can 0:28:01.640,0:28:09.610 slip out. For less current you can use[br]dupont connectors, they can take like 0:28:09.610,0:28:22.880 2 to 3A per contact. You know the standard[br]pin header and that kind of thing. And 0:28:22.880,0:28:29.800 there are also latching connectors from[br]molex and other manufacturers. The problem 0:28:29.800,0:28:39.310 is with that you need crimping tools and[br]those can be very expensive. So it first 0:28:39.310,0:28:48.540 makes sense to get those when you have a[br]hackerspace or you can share it with other 0:28:48.540,0:28:52.820 people.[br]Herald: The next question, please? 0:28:52.820,0:28:58.990 Q: Thank you for your talk. On your last[br]slide last point you mentioned stability 0:28:58.990,0:29:07.170 analysis. What is your experience with[br]running such converters in parallel for 0:29:07.170,0:29:13.650 redundancy and how would you do the[br]analysis there? 0:29:13.650,0:29:22.920 Zoé: Running current mode converters[br]parallel is typically okay, but they won't 0:29:22.920,0:29:30.250 do current sharing automatically. So this[br]one converter has a certain output voltage 0:29:30.250,0:29:37.720 set and the other one has little bit[br]different voltage, and that will create a 0:29:37.720,0:29:44.090 difference in their output currents, and[br]there are topologies and there are 0:29:44.090,0:29:50.620 converters which are prepared for parallel[br]operation and they can provide current 0:29:50.620,0:29:56.300 information to all of the parallel[br]converters, and they can ultimately 0:29:56.300,0:30:07.410 synchronize. For stability, that should[br]not influence the stability of it. What I 0:30:07.410,0:30:14.760 should have mentioned is stability[br]analysis because we have a control loop. 0:30:14.760,0:30:22.780 The control loop takes the output and[br]creates a control signal that influences 0:30:22.780,0:30:36.600 the output, but this loop has a delay, and[br]because of this delay, basically you can 0:30:36.600,0:30:47.230 make an oscillator of this, and to avoid[br]that, you can use a network analyzer and 0:30:47.230,0:30:56.860 inject a signal into the converter.[br]Q: Thank you. 0:30:56.860,0:31:09.170 Herald: Yeah, you go ahead, over there.[br]Q: Hi, what would you say the choice is 0:31:09.170,0:31:13.520 between a dis-synchronous mode or[br]a forced-synchronous mode? 0:31:13.520,0:31:33.010 Zoé: That's a very good question. All[br]right so when I talked about this briefly 0:31:33.010,0:31:39.970 and mentioned the synchronous converters,[br]with forced synchronous converters you 0:31:39.970,0:31:49.290 have a control switch and those have[br]typically fixed switch frequency. If the 0:31:49.290,0:31:55.030 output current is zero, then during half[br]of the period current will flow backward 0:31:55.030,0:32:01.750 from the output capacitor to the input[br]side and then the next half period that 0:32:01.750,0:32:06.430 current will flow back from the input to[br]the output, so basically energy swings 0:32:06.430,0:32:15.660 between input and output and this causes[br]efficiency loss, but this also avoids 0:32:15.660,0:32:30.770 operation in discontinuous mode, which[br]reduces ripple and reduces EMI. So it 0:32:30.770,0:32:34.850 depends on your application.[br]Q: Thanks. 0:32:34.850,0:32:38.700 Zoé: You're welcome.[br]Herald: The next question? 0:32:38.700,0:32:48.390 Q: Hi, Zoé, thank you for the talk! I have[br]a question about: you mentioned linear 0:32:48.390,0:32:54.220 regulators at the end, what are they used[br]for in this context? 0:32:54.220,0:33:02.010 Zoé: you mean 7800 series?[br]Q: Yes. 0:33:02.010,0:33:13.910 Q: Not, the one before, I think.[br]Zoé: Those were very good regulators in 0:33:13.910,0:33:22.130 the 70s and those are linear regulators,[br]and the problem with the 7800 series is 0:33:22.130,0:33:28.540 everybody knows about them because books[br]are full of them but they have quite a few 0:33:28.540,0:33:41.270 milli amps of quiescent current. They also[br]have bad regulation against load and line 0:33:41.270,0:33:48.140 transients and they are not cheaper than[br]much of their alternatives, so there's 0:33:48.140,0:33:56.020 really no reason to use those. You can use[br]for example a DC/DC pre-regulator and then 0:33:56.020,0:33:59.590 an LDO afterward to smooth out the[br]voltage. 0:33:59.590,0:34:07.204 Q: Okay, thank you.[br]Herald: Go ahead 0:34:07.204,0:34:13.490 Q: Thank you very much! My question is,[br]you mentioned the noise coupled via the 0:34:13.490,0:34:18.440 inductor to the output. Which sort of[br]filter do you recommend: differential 0:34:18.440,0:34:24.060 noise or common mode noise, and input or[br]output? Which is most important from your 0:34:24.060,0:34:32.040 perspective?[br]Zoé: So lots of the noise goes actually 0:34:32.040,0:34:40.460 back to the input supply and I said that[br]in an ideal circuit the input capacitor is 0:34:40.460,0:34:46.970 not necessary, but in a real circuit the[br]input capacitor is critical because the 0:34:46.970,0:35:03.520 input inductance is seen by by the switch.[br]If you let me show you. On this chart you 0:35:03.520,0:35:11.660 see the inductor current and the input[br]current, it follows the inductor current 0:35:11.660,0:35:17.720 only during the on phase which means after[br]the end of the on phase and beginning of 0:35:17.720,0:35:25.520 the off phase it falls from maximum value[br]to zero and later on at the end of the off 0:35:25.520,0:35:32.460 phase and the beginning of the on phase[br]the current jumps from zero to the output 0:35:32.460,0:35:42.380 current, and these jumps in the supply[br]current create an awful lot of EMI if the 0:35:42.380,0:35:51.610 input capacitor is not large enough so[br]this is a very critical thing. I saw quite 0:35:51.610,0:35:56.810 a few converters where the input capacitor[br]is under dimensioned and when you run it 0:35:56.810,0:36:03.370 over longer wires with more parasitic[br]inductance, that can create a lot of EMI. 0:36:03.370,0:36:12.090 For ways of reducing the the noise on the[br]output, the best way is to have proper 0:36:12.090,0:36:20.710 filtering capacitors. If you use ceramic[br]capacitors and enough high enough value 0:36:20.710,0:36:33.670 you can get rid of almost all of the[br]noise. I made a design which had microvolt 0:36:33.670,0:36:43.610 noise because I found a capacitor with its[br]resonance frequency exactly at the 0:36:43.610,0:36:48.610 switching frequency, so basically all that[br]noise that was coming from switching 0:36:48.610,0:36:55.260 action was reflected away and higher[br]frequency ranges where it got filtered 0:36:55.260,0:37:05.270 dissipated much faster. You can[br]use PI filters at the output but mind 0:37:05.270,0:37:16.890 that you worsen the transient behavior of[br]your converters. So if your load suddenly 0:37:16.890,0:37:23.060 needs a lot more power and starts drawing[br]more current, then your converter will 0:37:23.060,0:37:35.940 react slower because of the[br]filter you just added. PI filters or RC 0:37:35.940,0:37:38.890 filters if you don't need that much[br]current. 0:37:38.890,0:37:44.620 Q: Okay, thanks.[br]Herald: Okay great I don't see any more 0:37:44.620,0:37:52.540 questions, so everything seems to be fully[br]explained. Thank you and give her a 0:37:52.540,0:37:55.220 applause and good night. 0:37:55.220,0:37:56.670 applause 0:37:56.670,0:38:02.960 Zoé: Thank you 0:38:02.960,0:38:06.840 postroll music 0:38:06.840,0:38:30.000 Subtitles created by c3subtitles.de[br]in the year 2020. Join, and help us!