9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 [Bradley Kuhn] I have to be honest[br]I'm really honored to be here 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I don't say that to just every conference[br]I care a lot about Debian 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 This is my 3rd DebConf I've ever been to.[br] 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 There have been a lot of them so I [br]obviously haven't been to that many 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 But I was at DebConf1 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I just learned today that it was zero[br]based so that it wasn't the first DebConf 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 which I should have known but didn't for[br]some reason. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I was at the 2nd DebConf by accident[br]somewhat because I was going to 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Libre Software Meeting and just[br]happened to 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 book my flights so that I could be at[br]DebConf as well 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I gave a regular track talk at DebConf10[br]about the GPL v3 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 because it was in New York City where I[br]was living at the time 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Here I'm giving an invited speaker talk or[br]keynote or whatever else it is called here 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 That really means a lot to me. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I'm a fan of Debian, I'm a user of Debian. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I don't actually consider myself part of[br]the Debian community 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 because other than filing a few bugs[br]over the years 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I haven't contributed all that much to[br]Debian but I've relied on it and used it 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and been a fan of it for so long[br]that I really love your project. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 So I am really honored to be invited to[br]speak here 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and I really believe that Debian is a[br]very special project for a lot of reasons. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 First of all, it has thrived for longer[br]than almost any free software project 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in existence in a lot of ways. [br]There are top 10 lists of projects that 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Debian is certainly on as far as longevity[br]goes, maybe the top 5 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 It's governance is one of the few[br]democratically elected and 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 democratically controlled[br]governance processes in free software 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Everyone is a fan of talking about this[br]'benevolent dictator' stuff 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 which I think is really horrible[br]The fact that somebody would call 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 themselves a 'self appointed benevolent[br]dictator for life' is really disturbing. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 You are democratic. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 You elect your leadership. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 You have referendums on major issues[br]that everyone can vote on. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 That is amazingly rare, impressive[br]and important for free software. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 The other thing that really impresses me, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in particular being somebody from the[br]non-profit world, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 is that Debian has been staunchly[br]non-commercial for it's entire existence. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Of course I don't mean that Debian[br]can't be used in commercial settings. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 DFSG free means that things can be put[br]into commercial products. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 What I mean is that the project itself has[br]always been non-commercial, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 meaning that the people that work on it[br]are volunteering, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and, even if their employers are paying[br]them to work on it, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 they are part of a community and not[br]doing their work inside Debian as 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 officially part of some[br]commercial activity. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Most free software projects these days[br]are controlled by 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 some commercial entity or another. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Debian is not. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I was at Debconf1 which was really[br]exciting for me. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I was a young executive director of[br]Free Software. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I showed this picture to Karen Sandler who[br]I work with and said how different I look. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 She said I don't look different at all, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 but, speaking as the person that looks[br]at that face in the mirror every morning, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 there are a lot more lines on my face[br]than there. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 That is a smooth looking baby face that I[br]had 14 years ago that I don't have anymore 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I was pretty casual back then.[br]I'm not in short trousers any more. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 It's hard to see and you can see it in[br]some of the other photos that I was. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Even in this heat like this I haven't[br]worn short trousers in a very long time. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 What's that? [bdale heckles] 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Bdale, I was thinking about mentioning you[br]and now I have to because you are heckling 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 me [laughter]. Bdale is the one adult[br]in the room who can dress like 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 everybody else but I can't pull it off 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I respect Bdale that he can. [br]The tie-dye still works for him. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And I stopped wearing t-shirts years ago[br]at conferences 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and here I'm sweating in my long sleeves[br]halfway between hacker and suit attire. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And there [in the photo] I'm talking to[br]Martin Michmayer 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I'm going to do questions at the end Lars,[br]if that's ok.[br] 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I'm not good with questions because I[br]get off topic easy. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I left 17 minutes at the end for questions[br]which Bdale just took 3 of [laughter] 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 There I'm talking to Martin Michlmayer[br]when I first met him. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 A lot of things have changed since I[br]looked at this photo. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 But one thing that hasn't changed,[br]you see this face that Martin is making. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 He still makes that face at me every time[br]I talk to him, which sort of says like 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 "You do not know what you are talking[br]about". That hasn't changed, which is good 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 [laughter]. I'm glad he is laughing in the[br]back there. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Some things have stayed the same.[br]Martin still thinks I'm full of it. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And I probably am, so that's ok.[br]I like people to keep me honest. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Other than jokes, the thing that hasn't[br]really changed since I was first 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 introduced to the Debian community, in[br]person, back in 2001, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 is the ethos of this community is still[br]the same one that I remember 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 even though a lot of the developers[br]have changed. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I talked to somebody who had never[br]even installed Debian when they were at 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 DebConf1. I talked to someone who was[br]12 years old at the time of DebConf1. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I find it impressive that what I call the[br]'morality of the hobbyist contributor' 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 still lives strongly in Debian. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 The people in Debian want to do what is[br]right for other people - 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 their users, co-developers,[br]co-contributors. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 They also volunteer to do that. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 As I said before, that doesn't mean that[br]they aren't being paid to do their work. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 It's the classic free software thing: lots[br]of people get paid to write free software. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 What I've seen recently, in many free[br]software projects, is that 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 companies have used that. I think[br]OpenStack is one of the worst examples 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 of this. To control the project by hiring[br]lots of it's developers. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 They have this kindof pull over the[br]project. I think that a lot of people that 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 work at OpenStack would say they are[br]employers employee first and an 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 OpenStack contributor second. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I don't know anyone in Debian who would[br]not say 'I am a Debian developer' first 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and then I happen to be employed as a[br]second issue. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Debian is their first priority.[br]Their job is their second. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 That hobbyist culture of 'my volunteer[br]work matters more to me than 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 what actually pays me for a living'[br]is the kind of mentality that I am such a 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 fan of. I try to live that in my own work[br]as well. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I like interacting with the community.[br]I usually find conferences very stressful. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 This one I do not find as stressful[br]other than I'm standing in a room with a 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 huge number of people. Other than that[br]I don't find it stressful 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 because this is the kind of community[br]that thinks that way. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I think a lot of it has to do with the[br]other structures you have set up around 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 yourselves. The idea of having charities[br]that you work with 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 which you have chosen to do a multi[br]charity situation where you have lots 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 around the world that you can interact[br]with. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 One of them was founded by a Debian[br]developer initially. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 You reach out to other partnerships or[br]charities as a non-commercial community 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 That allows you to have an infrastructure[br]that you can rely on that helps 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 you maintain that community.[br]I'm very glad that you do that. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I used to work for the FSF and am still on[br]the board of directors. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Early in the project Debian was more or[br]less a GNU project for a while. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 It was part of the FSF. I know that[br]relationship has never been perfect 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 sometimes rocky and sometimes better,[br]but the FSF saw this in Debian too 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 very early on. That it was a really[br]important way to begin the whole 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 distribution thing of free software and [br]that culture was a match with 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 FSF's culture. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I know where the issues are and I'm[br]sure John is here to talk about them. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 But I think there is a lot of cultural[br]connect between FSF and Debian. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I'm a little obsessed about this quote.[br]I saw it in real time. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I was subscribed to comp.os.minux in Aug[br]of '91 when it was posted 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Part of it was that when I started working[br]for the FSF I started thinking about it 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and the FSF when I worked there had 7[br]employees and still has under 20 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 That's not big. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 So I don't think of it as big and I guess[br]strictly speaking, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 since the FSF is a very professional[br]organisation, and to take the 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 strict definition professional means you[br]get paid to do this thing, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 you do it for a living - yes, the FSF[br]staff are professionals 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in all the ways you might use the word[br]professional, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 but I don't think that's what Linus[br]was going for in this quote 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I don't think he meant those normal things[br]about professional 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I think what he was going for is he was[br]trying to create Linux back when he was[br]humble 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Because people forget Linus used to be[br]really humble. Once upon a time. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 [laughter] 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I don't know... ok. I think some of his[br]early posts were humble 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 but we can debate that I suppose. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 One of the things that Linus understood[br]well was that he wanted to create 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 a project where individuals collaborated[br]together in their own capacity. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 He wanted a hobbyist kind of culture and[br]was interested in that kind of culture. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I think that what he got wrong was not[br]realising how important charities are 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to that culture and I think Debian has[br]always got that right. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 You've always interacted with charities[br]in good ways. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I think you keep them at arms length,[br]which is OK and reasonable, but 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 you've always seen the value,[br]always seen the connection between being 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 a non-commercial hobbyist controlled[br]project, very professional I think, but 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 still hobbyist controlled in a sense that[br]you are volunteers doing the right things 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 for everyone in your community. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 At the same time reaching out to these[br]charities and letting them help you 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 get done what you need to get do in the[br]logistical world outside of your project. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 What I've seen in other projects that[br]Debian has not suffered from 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 is the politics of the projects have[br]bifurcated. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 There's the technical politics which is[br]the usual arguments about 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 this technology verses that technology 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 say, systemd verses upstart, something[br]like that 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and that, I think in almost every project[br]still remains under developer control. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 People who are developers decide[br]technical decisions like that. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 But the political governance in most other[br]projects has been hijacked in my view. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 By various different groups, depending on[br]the project 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 but usually some mix of lawyers or[br]business type people who are somehow 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in for profit companies or industry[br]associations, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that have taken over the political[br]governance. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 The reason they've succeeded in doing this[br]I think is because most developers 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 care deeply about the technical politics,[br]but not so much about the other politics. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 They want to make those decisions once[br]and leave them alone. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 A lot of my work in Conservancy is to help[br]developers make those decisions right once 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and then be able to leave them alone[br]without it having bite them later. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I think a lot of projects have faced that[br]situation, where the non technical 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 politics of their projects are under the[br]control of people who are 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 not members of the community, not really. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I think that has really happened to Linux. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I think that the Linux non technical[br]politics are out of the hands of 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the developers and it's a very sad thing,[br]from my point of view 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I think the companies control those[br]politics 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and they don't keep developers out[br]entirely, but they gate keep 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 from letting certain developers into the[br]politics of what's really going on in the 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 non technical space. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I've met many Linux developers who feel[br]disenfranchised. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 It's why Conservancy has a GPL enforcement[br]project for Linux. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Because they've come to us to ask for[br]someone who has a charitable mission 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to do the right thing for the public good,[br]as opposed to the what companies want. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I think that's what these charities serve. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 If you look at any of these charities that[br]we have out there, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Conservancy, Software in the Public[br]Interest, FSF, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 they do things for hobbyist developers[br]that are the morally right thing to do 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 but are sometimes controversial 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that developers actually really need, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 maybe sometimes don't want to spend too[br]much time on 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 because they're more interested in other[br]things, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 but companies and trade associations don't[br]need them and in fact 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 they often oppose them. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 As I said, we're doing at Conservancy the[br]GPL enforcement for Linux 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 because it is not in the business interest[br]of the companies who invest in Linux 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to see the GPL enforced. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 In many cases they actually oppose it[br]being enforced at all. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Which brings me to copyleft generally. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 My last talk to all of you was at DebConf[br]10, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 where I told you about GPL v3 and how[br]wonderful it is and 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 how much I respected Debian's commitment[br]to copyleft. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Now that's not to say everything in the[br]archive is copyleft, I would guess that 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 most things in the archive aren't, as it[br]turns out. (14:00)