I'm going to read this to you guys
and then you guys tell me
how you'd counsel this guy.
And look, in a lot of these,
it's not that there's necessarily a perfect answer,
I'm just wanting you to think
and be discerning
and think Scripturally,
seek to apply the Scripture.
So you have this guy Alex.
"Hi Pastor Tim, I'm currently serving
as a youth leader in my church.
My first question is:
It seems like every time I teach the youths
they don't seem serious about it.
I mean, they actually did tell me
that they like me much better than
the previous youth leader.
They also told me that they prefer
to listen to me teach over the elders in the church
apparently because the teachings
of the other elders are somewhat always the same
but worded differently.
That I have to admit as I feel
that sermons on YouTube give me
much more growth than the sermons
I hear at my own church.
I don't say this to boast,
but rather to just give you more information.
I really do spend a lot of time in making sure
the messages I create are practical and biblically sound.
However, I just feel like if the people I'm teaching
are not really serious about applying what is being taught
should I continue teaching those people?
To add, I'm teaching youths
that are ages 15-19.
My second question is that I've always been
somewhat of a self-taught person
in a sense that when I first became a follower of Jesus
I never had a Paul the same way Timothy did.
Everything I learned was just strictly
based on personal Bible reading,
reading Christian books, watching sermons,
and of course, my own personal experiences.
Now of course, I believe I was guided
by the Holy Spirit in my learning,
but I've always desired a mentor
who could actually guide me in my walk,
but I feel no one in the church could be that person.
Most of the elders of my church seem too busy
and no one ever offered to train me in some way
before I was asked whether I wanted to teach at the church.
I'm like the only 25 year old in my church.
No one else in my age range.
The other youths aged 15-19
are not really serious about their walk.
I just feel like sometimes I'm not growing
the way I'm supposed to,
and I sometimes question whether I'm qualified
simply because I'm not trained the same way
a person like Timothy was perhaps trained by Paul.
My question is, is it right for me
to continue serving as a youth leader
even though I'm not really growing
the way I feel I should be growing?
And also because I may not have
the appropriate training that a youth leader
should probably have?"
So there you have it.
What do you tell a guy like that?
James: He said, "my messages are practical."
I think that's not what the kids need.
He says they're not really serious about applying it.
Well, probably because they're not born again,
so I think he needs to change what he's saying to the kids.
They're not serious about their walk. Why is that?
And he can give practical messages all day
to a bunch of goats and they won't want to apply it.
He's got a great evangelistic opportunity.
Tim: Yeah, that's definitely a thought I had.
I mean, I would look at a situation like this
or like any situation that we get in in our life.
And I would begin to ask questions.
You need to consider your options.
You're in a situation like this.
What are the options?
Tell me. What are some of the options this guy has?
(from the room): Leave?
Tim: He could leave.
He could quit teaching.
He could quit having a problem with elders
that are too busy.
I mean, look, the reality is
I don't know the guy writing.
He could be in a wonderful church
and all the problems could be him.
One of the problems not knowing people
is when they email in.
You know, one of the things that you recognize
is he's not dialoguing with his own pastors on this.
The Internet is a very convenient place
to vent your frustrations
because you're not eyeball to eyeball with people
and you're not eyeball to eyeball with people who know you.
And so, it's pretty easy.
It's pretty easy to slant things
the way that you're almost calculated to get
the kind of answer that you want to hear.
And so, we recognize that
when we get these questions.
We recognize that we're getting
one person's opinion of a situation.
But I would say, yeah, what are the options?
One option - probably the most radical option -
you just leave it all.
Go to a different church.
He could do that.
I mean, he could do that.
If he feels like, well, one,
he's the only 25 year old
if he wants to go where there's other people his age.
Two, if he feels like the whole youth group
is basically uninterested,
and it sounds like he's even wondering
whether he's called to teach
or whether he's qualified to teach.
It sounds like he's got elders at least
that he feels are too busy
if that's really the case.
He could put all those thing together
and he could say,
maybe this isn't the best place for me to be.
What's probably the minimally difficult
or radical decision that he could make?
Yeah, do nothing.
You know, when people are faced
by problems, by difficulties in life,
you could do nothing.
But what are a number of other possibilities?
One is what James said.
That came to my mind
that look, if I'm heading up - (incomplete thought)
Maybe one of the problems here
is that this guy is like a lot of the Christian realm out there -
professing Christian realm -
is you basically assume everybody's a Christian
that says they're a Christian.
You know, when you watch "Logic on Fire"
one of the things that they say
about Martyn Lloyd-Jones when he went to Westminster -
he did not assume that everybody
sitting in the pews was converted.
So many of his messages were extremely evangelistic
and he saw many of the people converted.
And I think if you're discerning
and it sounds like he's discerning -
he's at least able to recognize
that these young people don't seem very enthused.
It seems like he's recognizing
that there's very little commitment on their part.
And so, yeah, I think James is right.
Basically what it sounds to me
is that he's dealing with a whole youth group of lost kids.
And so if you recognize that,
like James said, it's a huge opportunity.
What an opportunity for this guy to say,
hey, you know what?
I need to stop trying to deal with these people
like they're Christians,
and giving them these Christian messages,
and really learn what the Gospel is
and preach that to them.
Now as far as being qualified,
I don't know that.
I don't know how to answer that
because I don't know the guy
and I've not been exposed to his gifts.
I don't know where his Christianity is.
I don't know where his maturity level is.
(from the room)
I'm wondering, he sounds pretty mature.
But I'm wondering, I've never been on a mission,
but I'm thinking maybe I would have the same questions
if I was on a mission and thinking "am I qualified?"
But maybe I am qualified, you know?
I just need to push myself harder
or maybe I'm not qualified.
You know, I'm guessing that's probably
some of the questions you would struggle with
if you're out on a mission
or doing things of this nature.
Tim: Well, let me ask you this.
Do you know what was involved
in Paul selecting Timothy to go with him
on his missionary endeavor?
Do you remember that account
when Timothy first shows up?
He was well spoken of.
Do you remember which churches?
Anybody remember the churches?
Was it Lystra and Iconium?
He was well spoken of
by the brethren in those churches.
How do we know? I mean, look,
when you have the qualifications for elders,
you see 1 Timothy set in the context
of Timothy being at Ephesus.
The church being the pillar
and the ground of truth.
What we recognize is that even Paul and Barnabas
as supernatural as it was that the Spirit of God
seemed to indicate some way to the church at Antioch
that those two were sent forth,
yet what we find is that they were
two of the five prominent men in that church
who were exercising their gifts in preaching and teaching.
And my whole point here is this,
even think with me about look out amongst yourselves
and choose seven men
who are full of the Holy Spirit.
You know, when they were looking
for men to serve the tables there in Acts 6.
Look out among yourselves.
They called the brethren to look out among themselves.
And I think that the basic biblical pattern
is that you have people tested
in the community of the local church.
Asking somebody far away through the website
about whether you're qualified or not,
really, we can't make that assessment.
You could hear somebody say certain things
that could convince you they're not qualified,
but it's very difficult to tell from far away.
The place for a person's gifts to be tested
are right in the local church.
The people who would best know
whether this guy is qualified to do what he's doing
would be his own elders.
Now whether there's any incompetency
on the part of his elders, I don't know.
What thinking went into their minds
before they put him in this position?
And he seems to sense some inability
to access these guys' time.
But your own church would really be
the place to say that.
I mean, when we're talking about people
doing Sunday School
or we're thinking about elders or deacons
or we're looking at the possibility
of sending people overseas,
and when it comes to church planting endeavors,
when it comes to setting up preaching rotations
to church plants that we've started,
I mean, basically what is going to go into those decisions
is the observations that we have made
in two primary areas:
One, character. Two, gift.
Do they have outstanding character?
And do they have the adequate spiritual gifts
to do what we're asking them to do?
And the place for both of those things to be proven
is right in their own local church.
Provenness is really the only way
to figure out if somebody is qualified.
Unless, of course, you get some supernatural -
in some way, the Spirit of God said
send Paul and Barnabas.
Whether that came through a prophet,
(incomplete thought)
Maybe that's just a way of saying
that it was confirmed through the church.
Because the church is said to send them
just as it says the Spirit sent them in Acts 13.
We don't really know the mechanism God used there
to communicate that,
but typically, the way that we would look today
is tested in the community of believers.
So I mean, if I was in his position
and I was having doubts,
the first people I'd go to is the elders
and say are you sure I'm qualified to do this,
and I would have discussions with them about this.
But like James said, I would take this
as a huge evangelistic opportunity.
I mean, if I had any burden to be teaching
or any burden evangelistically,
and suddenly when I become aware -
maybe in the beginning I thought,
hey, I'm going to have 15-19 year olds
and they're all professing Christians
and I come into it thinking that I'm dealing
with young people who are Christians,
and I want to talk to them about purity,
but I recognize after awhile
that they're just dead and they don't really care
and they're not likely walking in purity anyway,
and it just suddenly dawns on me
that it's probably because they're all lost.
You've got a bunch of young people
that have made professions, been baptized.
Now if that's true, I think that says something
about the quality of the church in and of itself,
if you've got a bunch of young people
that have all been run through the baptismal waters
and most of them are not converted
or all of them are not converted,
that says something about the discernment
of the elders as well.
And that would begin to make me question
whether their discernment about putting me
in that teaching position was necessarily good.
But it is an opportunity to say,
hey, I've got a room full of lost people
and they're not responding well
when I'm basically exhorting them
with these Christian exhortations.
Yeah, I think going right to the root
of hey, you know what real Christianity looks like?
And you know what I'm seeing?
Most of you don't have it.
Maybe all of you don't have it.
You know, all of you are likely
going to end up being like Matthew 7 says,
saying "Lord, Lord," but in that day,
you're going to hear, "I never knew you."
(Incomplete thought)
My suspicion is that if all these folks are baptized
and the elders actually did that
and you begin to scare the kids that way -
cause their consciences to wake up -
probably they would then think he wasn't qualified.
But that would probably prove all the more that he is.
And that would probably prove all the more
that he's really in a bad church
and he's got some bad leadership.
But anyway.
(from the room)
I have a question.
What role does consistency play
in being a proven Christian?
Or just other attributes that would contribute?
Tim: Well, I mean, in 2 Timothy
Paul specifically tells Timothy to look for faithful men.
And we were just down in Mexico
and the question came up
about qualifications.
People were wanting to know
what does it take to go to the mission field?
Look, we have different sorts of people
that we use in our church.
Some are like John Sytsma.
They oversee a missionary team.
Some are like Matt Wilkinson.
He's church planting in Saltillo.
But others are like Jenny
who go as a missionary helper to Lebanon.
(incomplete thought)
Obviously when we're talking John and Matt,
we're looking for men that are basically elder caliber.
That's true of John.
Whether we would say that's distinctly true of Matt,
Matt never served as an elder in our church here at home,
but we did lay hands on him
in sending him forth as a missionary.
But then we get missionary helpers.
But I tell you this, in all of them -
Craig just recently said when we're thinking
about new teachers or revamping teaching -
we've committed Sunday School classes to Craig
now that he's an elder.
And he told me, he said,
I'm not putting anyone
in the Sunday School rotation
who doesn't come to the prayer meeting.
And I would say amen,
and I would not send anybody to the foreign mission field
unless they were faithful in their attendance.
Now look, I recognize if they've got Wednesday evening class
or they're on a work rotation where they have to work
every third Wednesday, or whatever that looks like,
I recognize.
But when people are flippant
and they're not disciplined
and they're not prioritizing the prayer meeting,
I want people that are prayerful
that are in any kind of ministry,
any kind of leadership, any kind of teaching.
We need prayerful people.
We need faithful people.
What does faithful look like?
People that keep their word. People that come on time.
People that if they're given a responsibility,
they don't drop the ball.
They're very meticulous about it.
They're very conscientious.
I mean, I remember one time
we had committed the leading of music to a man,
and he showed up at the church
and didn't lead.
And I looked at him,
and he just decided he wasn't going to do it.
I mean, that's dropping the ball.
If you've got a Sunday School class,
you're not just waking up on Sunday morning
and putting together something in 20 minutes and running in.
You're serious.
You're going to give yourself to it.
(from the room)
So to be a proven Christian,
you said consistency, faithfulness,
maybe being tested.
Tim: Well, when we talk about tested,
I mean one of the things we're looking for
is the character.
Is there pride or humility?
Purity?
Their honesty?
Their work ethic?
Are they diligent in the Scriptures?
Are they growing the knowledge of Scripture?
Do they have a consistent walk with the Lord?
Is it real?
Is there reality in their life?
Is there growth in their life?
Is there a fear of God, a love of Christ?
As far as gift, that's going to demonstrate itself.
(Incomplete thought)
Basically, what is a spiritual gift?
A spiritual gift is not something somebody
is naturally born with.
It's something that the Spirit of God
imparts to a believer.
Now it may be consistent with physical giftedness,
but it is the Spirit specifically enabling
an individual to do something in a way
that benefits and blesses
and imparts grace to God's people.
And the truth is it's like an evangelist.
Somebody can call themselves an evangelist,
but you know what, if you're not able
to communicate the Gospel
and actually see people's lives changed,
I doubt you're an evangelist.
A person can call themselves a preacher,
but if they step in the pulpit
and they're killing God's people every time they do it,
yeah, they're in the pulpit preaching
and they may call themselves a preacher,
but are they a preacher?
Well, God hasn't made them one.
So that's the issue.
Somebody can say they're merciful
or somebody could say that they have a gift to lead.
We can say all sorts of things,
but the real proof is that when you seek
to use that spiritual gift in the context of God's people,
does God actually energize that?
Does God use that so that God's people
can say yes?
Somebody can say my gift is mercy
or I'm a comforter, I'm an encourager.
But you go try to encourage people
and they feel devastated by you.
I really believe my wife has that gift
because people say that after they talk to her.
People don't typically say I have that gift
and I probably would agree.
I recognize.
Now I have different ones,
but that would not be the primary one
or even one maybe.
James: Sometimes you need to be devastated
to be encouraged.
Tim: Right. Right.
Sometimes people need my approach
and maybe even more often,
they need Ruby's approach.
But you know, I'm aware
that when I teach and preach,
people are helped.
I'm also aware that when something
needs to be dealt with really delicately,
I'm not the guy with the gentleness
to pull that off.
And I will defer to my wife.
There are times when getting counsel from Ruby
about how to handle a matter beforehand is helpful
because it's like sometimes it just doesn't register with me.
Obviously, it's not a gift
if it doesn't even register with me how to do that.
I tend to be blunt and to the point.
Anyway, we know what our gifts are
because when we exercise them... (incomplete thought).
So I think that that's key.
You guys know this, as we've sought
to test people as far as
their preaching and teaching abilities,
you've seen us sort through different people.
You yourselves have sat there
and you've been part of the body
as we've sought to listen and evaluate.
(incomplete thought)
Teaching and preaching is prominent
because it happens in the capacity that it does
where you have an individual stand before others
and seek to proclaim the truth of God's Word.
But just as much when you have gifts
of encouragement or mercy
or leadership, serving gifts.
So anything else on that?