[Script Info]
Title: 
[Events]
Format: Layer, Start, End, Style, Name, MarginL, MarginR, MarginV, Effect, Text
Dialogue: 0,0:00:02.22,0:00:04.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Thank you Clark and you all for coming along
Dialogue: 0,0:00:04.97,0:00:07.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Delighted to be here...
Dialogue: 0,0:00:07.07,0:00:10.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm really looking forward to spending this quarter at UCLA
Dialogue: 0,0:00:10.97,0:00:14.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Plenty of people with overlapping research interests.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:14.65,0:00:16.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,As Clark says, I'm going to talk today
Dialogue: 0,0:00:16.75,0:00:19.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about the evolution of human communication and languages,
Dialogue: 0,0:00:19.92,0:00:22.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what I spend most my career today researching.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:22.86,0:00:26.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There's the book –I might just as well hold it up!
Dialogue: 0,0:00:26.02,0:00:29.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I didn't tell anybody (no, no, I'm joking) [laughs]
Dialogue: 0,0:00:29.12,0:00:32.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But before I talk about language, given that I'm here for a quarter
Dialogue: 0,0:00:32.22,0:00:36.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I would like to talk to lots people and wider intellectual world while I'm here,
Dialogue: 0,0:00:36.85,0:00:40.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I just wanted to briefly mention a couple other things I'm generally interested in.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:40.46,0:00:46.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I've got a paper short of coming out on recursive mindreading, the idea that...
Dialogue: 0,0:00:46.01,0:00:49.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this guy is thinking; she's thinking about what he's thinking;
Dialogue: 0,0:00:49.80,0:00:53.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,he can think about what she's thinking about what he's thinking and
Dialogue: 0,0:00:53.84,0:00:54.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so on and so forth.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:54.87,0:00:58.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Something that, although simple mind-reading is much studied, recursive mind-reading
Dialogue: 0,0:00:58.26,0:01:05.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is not much studied, but it seems to me vital for a lot of critical human institutions, behaviors...
Dialogue: 0,0:01:05.02,0:01:08.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it's something I've become very interested in lately.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:08.11,0:01:10.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I've also become very interested in cultural attraction, which is
Dialogue: 0,0:01:10.96,0:01:14.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,an approach to thinking about culture and cultural evolution
Dialogue: 0,0:01:14.42,0:01:18.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,developed first by Dan Sperber and then by others such as
Dialogue: 0,0:01:18.92,0:01:22.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Pascal Boyer and Lawrence Hirschfeld and so on.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:22.02,0:01:26.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So these are just two things that I'm interested in general at the moment.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:26.59,0:01:32.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm going to be collaborating with Jacob, who's just there, on cultural attraction while I'm here.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:32.53,0:01:36.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But yes, as Clark said, today I'm going to talk about
Dialogue: 0,0:01:36.14,0:01:40.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the origins and evolution of human communication and language.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:42.11,0:01:46.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So the origins of human language is something with a long intellectual history.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:46.15,0:01:49.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It goes back pre-Darwin...
Dialogue: 0,0:01:49.44,0:01:52.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Several intellectuals have written about it...
Dialogue: 0,0:01:52.88,0:01:56.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jean-Jacques Rousseau is the most well-known of the pre-Darwinians (...)
Dialogue: 0,0:01:56.99,0:02:03.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Darwin himself wrote about the origins of language for several pages in The Descent of Man.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:03.64,0:02:06.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And there's been interest in it throughout the 20th century,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:06.77,0:02:09.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I guess the clearest manifestation of that is the many
Dialogue: 0,0:02:09.35,0:02:14.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,ape-language experiments that took place from, I guess, from the 1920s onwards.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:16.07,0:02:21.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then 1960, a famous paper by a linguist called Charles Hockett...
Dialogue: 0,0:02:21.91,0:02:26.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where he outlined what he called the designed features of language.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:26.04,0:02:30.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Features of languages, that languages have which, in Charles Hockett's view,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:30.96,0:02:36.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,made languages what they are, made them languages. And he wrote about comparing them with other
Dialogue: 0,0:02:36.79,0:02:41.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,communication systems in the natural world. For instance, the bee dance, echolocation,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:41.64,0:02:43.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and so on and so forth.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:46.02,0:02:50.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then since around the last 20, 25 years or so
Dialogue: 0,0:02:50.28,0:02:55.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,these various different streams of interest, from linguistics, from biology,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:55.89,0:03:00.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from primatology, and so on, have come together a bit more. And there's now a healthy
Dialogue: 0,0:03:00.49,0:03:05.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,community of people studying language origins and evolution under the name Evolang.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:06.48,0:03:09.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Conferences have been running since 1996.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:10.74,0:03:16.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the field I guess is mature enough that there's now in Oxford Handbook of Language Evolution.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:16.68,0:03:20.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This is a big book, it's 800-pages long. This is published in 2011.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:21.79,0:03:27.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And on its back cover it sort of says what its objectives are, and I actually agree that it
Dialogue: 0,0:03:27.04,0:03:31.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,does do what it says on the tin: this is a book where leading scholars
Dialogue: 0,0:03:31.37,0:03:35.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,present critical accounts of every aspect of the field.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:35.04,0:03:38.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,A wide-ranging summation of the work in all the disciplines involved.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:38.69,0:03:43.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So this is proposed to be, and I agree, an accurate portrayal of where we are in
Dialogue: 0,0:03:43.30,0:03:45.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the field language evolution.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:46.67,0:03:49.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You look in the index and you look up the number of entries
Dialogue: 0,0:03:49.95,0:03:53.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,listed under different sub-disciplines of linguistics,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:53.60,0:04:00.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and this is what you find... Syntax and related terms, semantics and related terms: plenty of entries;
Dialogue: 0,0:04:00.06,0:04:05.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,almost nothing on pragmatics. Pragmatics is kind of the messy part of language,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:05.38,0:04:11.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is a bit that deals with language use in context. So if you think of semantics as meaning in isolation,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:11.98,0:04:15.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,pragmatics is meaning in context.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:15.08,0:04:18.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So what we say is not always the same as what we mean, and
Dialogue: 0,0:04:18.85,0:04:23.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,pragmatics deals with that difference. It's stuff that's used in metaphor and
Dialogue: 0,0:04:23.64,0:04:27.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,irony and various ambiguity, and various other topics.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:27.67,0:04:31.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But yet we're barely thinking about it in language evolution.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:33.75,0:04:39.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Instead what we're doing is thinking of languages as... more like digital codes,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:41.53,0:04:46.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and studying them in those terms. So I'm just going to give one example.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:46.36,0:04:50.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's a quote from a very famous paper from Pinker & Bloom in 1990,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:50.77,0:04:56.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and they talk about the vocal-auditory channel having desirable features as a medium of communication:
Dialogue: 0,0:04:56.15,0:05:00.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,high-bandwidth; a serial interface; basic tools of a coding scheme;
Dialogue: 0,0:05:00.84,0:05:04.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,an inventory of distinguishable symbols and their concatenations.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:04.98,0:05:08.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So we've got the language of information theory, of coding and decoding,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:08.65,0:05:12.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,scattered throughout this, and this is not just how people are thinking about it.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:12.69,0:05:17.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's also... You can see this in the methods that people employ, in the computational models and
Dialogue: 0,0:05:17.04,0:05:19.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,mathematical models that are build.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:19.25,0:05:22.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But what people are looking at very much is coding systems,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:22.88,0:05:26.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and how you start to combine symbols together to form
Dialogue: 0,0:05:26.46,0:05:29.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,more complex signals and so on and so forth.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:29.32,0:05:34.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Very little work, actually, on the messy reality of language use out there in the world.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:34.87,0:05:39.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If there's a central message to my book is that this agenda is a profound mistake.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:39.60,0:05:43.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I guess what I've tried to do in the book is
Dialogue: 0,0:05:43.71,0:05:48.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to illustrate this is a profound mistake by taking pragmatic seriously, putting it front and center.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:48.32,0:05:52.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This is what we're doing with language; this is what we're doing in communication in general.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:52.56,0:05:56.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And showing that you can actually answer all the big questions you might want to ask
Dialogue: 0,0:05:56.31,0:05:59.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about language evolution by taking pragmatics seriously.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:59.38,0:06:05.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So why do only humans have language? Where are the points a continuity and discontinuity with other species?
Dialogue: 0,0:06:05.79,0:06:10.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,How do languages evolve the very structural properties that make them languages?
Dialogue: 0,0:06:10.93,0:06:15.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,All these questions get good answers if we start to take pragmatics seriously.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:15.66,0:06:21.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I can't go into all that in one talk. What I'm going to do today is to talk about one of those questions,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:21.95,0:06:27.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is the relationship between non-human primate communication and human communication,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:27.89,0:06:32.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the similarities and differences between them. And that will actually lead us to an explanation of
Dialogue: 0,0:06:32.83,0:06:37.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,—or part of an explanation— of why only humans have language.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:37.07,0:06:42.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So let's get into a bit more detail. Actually, this is probably a good point for me to stress that
Dialogue: 0,0:06:42.75,0:06:45.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm actually quite happy to take questions as we go along.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:45.82,0:06:50.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I've come from research where that's the norm and I find that's quite a nice way
Dialogue: 0,0:06:50.60,0:06:56.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for the speaker to know where the audience are. So please stick your hands up if you have any questions.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:56.10,0:07:00.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OK, so let's go into a bit more detail on what the code-model communication is.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:00.49,0:07:05.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,One way of thinking about it is with what's called the conduit metaphor.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:05.21,0:07:11.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You have this package, this thing that you put into a package, and then you send it along
Dialogue: 0,0:07:11.15,0:07:14.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a conduit where it gets unwrapped at the other end.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:14.41,0:07:17.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's a way of thinking about how communication works in the first place.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:17.69,0:07:22.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And we see this metaphor in our everyday language: "send me your ideas", "get your message across".
Dialogue: 0,0:07:22.78,0:07:27.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Expressions like these are all employing this conduit metaphor.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:27.100,0:07:31.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Another way of thinking about communication, a very famous way,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:31.15,0:07:35.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is Shannon & Weaver's Information Theory. The idea here is
Dialogue: 0,0:07:35.12,0:07:39.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that as information which gets encoded by some encoding algorithm,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:39.36,0:07:43.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and then it gets transmitted, maybe some noise into the situation here,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:43.65,0:07:47.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and then at this end it gets decoded by some decoding algorithm.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:47.87,0:07:52.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And if the encoding algorithm the decoding algorithm are appropriately calibrated to one another,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:52.84,0:07:57.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then what comes out one end is the same as what went in at the other end,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:57.86,0:08:00.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and we can say communication has been successful.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:03.40,0:08:08.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There's actually a plus sign here, though it's not strictly a sort of an equation
Dialogue: 0,0:08:08.08,0:08:11.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(if you add these two up you get this). But you can probably see how
Dialogue: 0,0:08:11.58,0:08:15.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if you're thinking about communication in these terms you end up with
Dialogue: 0,0:08:15.91,0:08:20.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what I'm calling "natural codes"... And these are essentially pairs of associations;
Dialogue: 0,0:08:20.59,0:08:24.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so you have an association between a state the world and a signal,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:24.43,0:08:27.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and then an association between a signal and a response.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:27.77,0:08:31.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And if those associations are matched up to one another, you can say we've got
Dialogue: 0,0:08:31.60,0:08:35.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,some sort communication system. So this is one natural code; this could be another natural code.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:35.65,0:08:40.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And natural codes are perfectly good ways to think about many instances of communication in
Dialogue: 0,0:08:40.43,0:08:43.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the natural world. It's how computers communicate, but is also,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:43.33,0:08:47.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think, the best way to describe all sorts of natural communication systems,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:47.21,0:08:51.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from bacteria through insects, animals, and so on and so forth.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:52.85,0:08:57.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The problem is... OK, before I move on to the problem...
Dialogue: 0,0:08:58.48,0:09:02.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This is kind of stressing the point I was making earlier, that in language evolution
Dialogue: 0,0:09:02.72,0:09:07.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,were very much at the moment thinking about communication in terms of natural codes, so
Dialogue: 0,0:09:07.30,0:09:11.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a BBS [Behavioral and Brain Sciences] paper, 2009, Nicholas Evans and Steve Levinson:
Dialogue: 0,0:09:11.97,0:09:15.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"... those interested in the evolution of the biological preconditions for language
Dialogue: 0,0:09:15.43,0:09:17.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have been looking in the wrong place"
Dialogue: 0,0:09:17.96,0:09:21.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,—I agree with them—"Instead of looking at the pragmatics of communicative exchange,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:21.97,0:09:24.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they've been focused on the syntax and combinatorics".
Dialogue: 0,0:09:24.77,0:09:27.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So that's where we are at the moment.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:27.10,0:09:31.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We're looking at these codes and the combining of these codes in various ways.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:31.28,0:09:34.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This is Wittgenstein on the left, and Paul Grice,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:34.90,0:09:38.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who's often seen as a founder of pragmatics as a discipline.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:38.90,0:09:44.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I like this slide because of the way they seem to be critically looking at each other
Dialogue: 0,0:09:44.92,0:09:49.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Which kind of underlines one of the points both of them wanted to make
Dialogue: 0,0:09:49.26,0:09:52.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,—or at least Wittgenstein at one point of his career wanted to make—
Dialogue: 0,0:09:52.73,0:09:58.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is that communication is not as simple is this.. Actually, you know,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:58.68,0:10:02.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's very tempting, it's very attractive to look at languages
Dialogue: 0,0:10:02.30,0:10:05.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and to try to make them fit this box of natural codes;
Dialogue: 0,0:10:05.43,0:10:09.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to cut them up into digital components, and so on and so forth.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:11.21,0:10:13.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But that doesn't work it turns out.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:13.38,0:10:19.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And reality is undeterminancy... The fact that what I say is not the same as what I mean
Dialogue: 0,0:10:19.59,0:10:23.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is actually not just the messy things on the edges.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:23.18,0:10:25.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's pervasive. It's everywhere.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:25.37,0:10:29.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This is the point that both of these philosophers wanted to make.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:29.87,0:10:34.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And we can see it (I'm not going to go deep into the philosophy) but we can see
Dialogue: 0,0:10:34.38,0:10:39.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,several simple examples just here. So, the most trivial example is to say, well, what's "that" here?
Dialogue: 0,0:10:39.28,0:10:42.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We have these deictic expressions in languages.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:42.50,0:10:46.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Pronouns, he/she and so on, and other examples.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:46.63,0:10:51.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This here... Is this "bank" as in the side to the river or is it a financial institution?
Dialogue: 0,0:10:51.85,0:10:59.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We don't know. This could mean "dinner", could mean "run away", it could mean
Dialogue: 0,0:10:59.05,0:11:04.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"Look at the cute fluffy bunny"... It could mean all sorts of things.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:04.05,0:11:08.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And in this one here Peter's answer (sorry if you cant see)
Dialogue: 0,0:11:08.88,0:11:11.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Mary says, "Would you like to join us for dinner?"
Dialogue: 0,0:11:11.81,0:11:13.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and Peter replies, "I ate earlier".
Dialogue: 0,0:11:13.71,0:11:18.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And Peter's response doesn't actually answer Mary's question directly.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:18.62,0:11:24.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,He has not answered the question. Yet we all know and Mary knows what he's getting at.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:24.06,0:11:28.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, the point I'm making here is not the trivial and obvious one,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:28.10,0:11:32.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that there's ambiguity in language –we all know that, nobody's going to deny that.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:32.02,0:11:38.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The point is that, as a code, as something to make communication possible in the first place,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:38.03,0:11:42.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,languages are not very good. In fact, they're quite hopeless.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:42.03,0:11:46.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If all you've got is the code, if that's all, you don't know what this means,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:46.17,0:11:50.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you don't know what this mean, in general don't know what any of this means on its own.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:50.94,0:11:55.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, to go back and think about the natural codes that made communication possible
Dialogue: 0,0:11:55.56,0:11:57.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in that information-theoretic way.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:57.80,0:12:02.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Communication can be said to exist if you have those pairs associations.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:02.22,0:12:04.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That's simply not true here.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:04.50,0:12:10.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If you just have a code, the linguistic code, you don't have communication, not yet.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:10.10,0:12:15.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So taking these facts seriously, pragmatics has developed a different way of thinking
Dialogue: 0,0:12:15.66,0:12:16.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about communication.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:16.94,0:12:20.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, I've said "a" —there are probably several different proposals out there.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:20.84,0:12:26.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think the clearest one comes from Dan Sperber and Deirdre Wilson's Relevance Theory.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:29.69,0:12:33.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the label they used to contrast their way of thinking about
Dialogue: 0,0:12:33.75,0:12:38.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,communication with the code model... So they coined the term "code model", and they
Dialogue: 0,0:12:38.13,0:12:41.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,contrasted it with what they call the "ostensive-inferential model".
Dialogue: 0,0:12:41.81,0:12:45.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,A slightly cumbersome phrase, but it does capture what they're trying to describe.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:45.34,0:12:51.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the idea is that we're providing evidence... When we talk we're providing evidence and
Dialogue: 0,0:12:51.82,0:12:55.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what we are providing evidence for is intentions.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:55.96,0:12:58.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And more precisely, those intentions are what we call
Dialogue: 0,0:12:58.87,0:13:02.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"communicative intention" and "informative intention".
Dialogue: 0,0:13:02.42,0:13:07.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, informative intention is my intention that you come to believe something.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:07.71,0:13:12.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So if I say, "There is cake for dinner", I want you to believe that there is cake for dinner.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:12.47,0:13:17.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That's my intention. I want to change your mental state so that you now you think that
Dialogue: 0,0:13:17.85,0:13:20.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there is going to be cake for dinner.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:20.06,0:13:23.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,A communicative intention is my intention that you recognize that I have
Dialogue: 0,0:13:23.97,0:13:26.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,an informative intention in the first place.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:26.41,0:13:33.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So: I intend that you understand that I intend that you understand that there is cake for dinner.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:33.32,0:13:41.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, that sounds complex. But... —I'm certainly not going to go into all the details
Dialogue: 0,0:13:41.17,0:13:46.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because wed be here all week— but when you get into the details of
Dialogue: 0,0:13:46.12,0:13:50.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Relevance Theory, this account—this way of thinking about communications—starts
Dialogue: 0,0:13:50.70,0:13:56.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to deal seriously with the philosophical issues that Grice and Wittgenstein and plenty of others
Dialogue: 0,0:13:56.46,0:13:59.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,were addressing or were raising, excuse me.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:59.97,0:14:06.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,A more simple way, without getting in all the jargon, a kind of the simplest way of thinking about
Dialogue: 0,0:14:06.31,0:14:09.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what's going on here is: we're expressing two intentions:
Dialogue: 0,0:14:09.49,0:14:14.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,one is what I'm trying to communicate, and the other is the fact that I'm trying to communicate.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:14.53,0:14:18.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So: "what am I trying to say" and "am I trying to say anything at all?"
Dialogue: 0,0:14:18.70,0:14:22.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This is not just an account of linguistic communication but communication in general.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:22.93,0:14:29.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So what's the difference between this point, which is direct and very clearly directing toward Clark,
Dialogue: 0,0:14:29.42,0:14:34.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and this point here, where I'm looking at my watch and the fact that I am pointing is incidental.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:34.76,0:14:37.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,One of these is communicative and the other one is not.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:37.62,0:14:41.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So one of them is expressing a communicative intention, and the other is not.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:41.50,0:14:44.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That's the need for the communicative intention there.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:44.88,0:14:48.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then once that you recognize that somebody has a communicative intention
Dialogue: 0,0:14:48.32,0:14:52.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you can go about the challenge of identifying the content of the informative intention,
Dialogue: 0,0:14:52.82,0:14:54.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of this half here.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:55.90,0:14:58.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And as I said, this is not just linguistic –we see this all times.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:58.72,0:15:03.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Pointing is one example, but we also shrug, we do all sorts of things with our bodies,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:03.21,0:15:08.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and when we do we do them, we do them in stylized and exaggerated ways, and in doing so make it
Dialogue: 0,0:15:08.14,0:15:11.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,apparent to our intended audience that we're trying to communicate with them
Dialogue: 0,0:15:11.50,0:15:13.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and what it is we're trying to communicate.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:13.53,0:15:17.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Here is one example: I was in a pub some weeks ago, standing at the bar with a friend,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:17.13,0:15:20.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we we're both facing that way, the bar is here,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:20.08,0:15:23.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I had my note in one hand and my other hand just here.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:23.76,0:15:28.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And my friend had just ordered some chips, and they'd arrived, they had just been given to him,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:28.84,0:15:34.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so they're situated just here. And were chatting away, and I, with my hand, I just went like this,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:34.53,0:15:36.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I don't know if you can all see that,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:36.32,0:15:40.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so I was chatting away and I went did this, in a deliberate and stylized way.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:40.60,0:15:42.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Made this gesture with my hand.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:42.16,0:15:45.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And he just said Yes. And I took a chip and ate it.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:45.20,0:15:49.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now... we move our hands all the time, right?,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:49.25,0:15:53.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but there's something about the stylized and exaggerated way in which I did that,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:53.54,0:15:56.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which revealed to my friend that,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:56.08,0:16:00.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a) I wanted to communicate with him, and b) what it was I wanted to communicate.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:00.36,0:16:03.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This is not something you can capture with a natural code.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:03.65,0:16:07.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We didn't have any convention associated with this expression and
Dialogue: 0,0:16:07.77,0:16:11.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the idea "Can I have a chip?" This is just something that's created on the fly.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:11.80,0:16:16.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,As said, we shrug our shoulders, we do all sorts of things. This is ostensive communication.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:18.36,0:16:23.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So what we have here is two ways of thinking about the very possibility of communication in the first place.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:23.91,0:16:27.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,On the one hand we have the code model, and the code model is defined
Dialogue: 0,0:16:27.17,0:16:30.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,by the fact that is made possible by associations.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:30.29,0:16:37.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So if you have an organism able to make associations with the state the world and with some behavior,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:37.54,0:16:41.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and perhaps with the observations of the world and some reaction,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:41.67,0:16:45.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then you can have communication in the code-model type of way.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:45.51,0:16:48.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We see this all over the natural world.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:48.04,0:16:51.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,On the other hand, you have this other type of communication,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:51.08,0:16:53.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is about expressing and recognizing intentions.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:53.92,0:16:57.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And this is made possible—what defines it as a type of communication—
Dialogue: 0,0:16:57.30,0:17:01.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is the fact that is a type of meta-psychology,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:01.28,0:17:04.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is a type of manipulating others' minds,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:04.21,0:17:08.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and mind-reading and manipulation. So, as a speaker, I'm trying to
Dialogue: 0,0:17:08.80,0:17:14.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,change your mental state right now. I'm manipulating your minds and you are trying to read my mental states.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:14.12,0:17:16.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I have intentions and you're trying to read them.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:16.84,0:17:21.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Made possible by our mechanisms of meta-psychology.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:21.01,0:17:24.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the difference here... I want to stress that the difference here
Dialogue: 0,0:17:24.10,0:17:26.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is not one of degree; it's one of kind.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:26.68,0:17:31.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And a way to make that graphic is to contrast it with an entirely different domain,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:31.46,0:17:37.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,namely locomotion. Flying and walking are two different types of locomotion.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:37.39,0:17:42.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But we don't want to say that flying is some sort of enhanced form of walking.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:42.40,0:17:48.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They're the same sort of thing, they're locomotion, but they're totally different ways
Dialogue: 0,0:17:48.79,0:17:51.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of going about it, a difference in kind.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:51.30,0:17:55.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Similarly, ostensive communication and code mode communication
Dialogue: 0,0:17:55.29,0:17:57.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are differences in kind.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:02.78,0:18:06.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So where does language fit into this distinction?
Dialogue: 0,0:18:06.67,0:18:12.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's a very assumption to make, a common assumption, that with linguistic communication
Dialogue: 0,0:18:12.14,0:18:17.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what we're dealing with is a system which is really, at bottom, it's a code.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:17.10,0:18:22.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then on top of it you plug in all this meta-psychology, this pragmatics,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:22.17,0:18:24.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and then you get language.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:27.02,0:18:31.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Many people, both those inside linguistics and those outside,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:31.28,0:18:35.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have said that, sometimes linguists have "physics envy".
Dialogue: 0,0:18:35.12,0:18:39.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So they look at physics with this world where they can cut things up into precise things that are
Dialogue: 0,0:18:39.68,0:18:44.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,clearly identifiable. And they try to do the same thing with language, so
Dialogue: 0,0:18:44.24,0:18:48.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you've got these individual phonemes and they are distinct from each other,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:48.04,0:18:52.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and you can do the same thing for syntax and it goes to semantics and so on and so forth.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:52.15,0:18:57.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so the object of study for linguistics becomes –well, in addition, the object to study
Dialogue: 0,0:18:57.88,0:19:01.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for linguistics are the languages themselves, the linguistic code.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:01.88,0:19:06.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so it's very easy to think that this is really what linguistic communication is about,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:06.48,0:19:10.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is a type of communication made possible by associations—i.e. a code model—
Dialogue: 0,0:19:10.80,0:19:16.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and then the meta-psychology, the pragmatics is the bonus, that's what makes it more expressively powerful.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:16.60,0:19:21.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The reality is exactly the other way around. This common assumption is upside down.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:21.15,0:19:24.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What's going on here, in linguistic communication,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:24.02,0:19:28.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is that our communication is made possible by ostention, inference, meta-psychology.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:28.70,0:19:32.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then on top of that, what we've done is creating a linguistic code
Dialogue: 0,0:19:32.83,0:19:37.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which allows us to be much more expressive, and more precise than we otherwise could be.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:37.13,0:19:41.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I can point to things in this room, but with language I can point to things
Dialogue: 0,0:19:41.07,0:19:44.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,remote in time and space, and I do that because I've got these tools, what
Dialogue: 0,0:19:44.73,0:19:48.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we call the linguistic code, the conventions that allow me to do that.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:48.63,0:19:55.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's vital that our terminology reflects this; the difference between the sort of codes
Dialogue: 0,0:19:55.57,0:20:00.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that are making ostensive communication more powerful and the natural code we had earlier.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:00.78,0:20:05.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So natural codes make communication possible –that's the point I was making earlier.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:05.67,0:20:09.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The linguistic code, on the other hand, is a different type of code.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:09.37,0:20:13.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's a type of code that makes a different type of communication, ostensive communication,
Dialogue: 0,0:20:13.61,0:20:17.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,more powerful. So I use this label: conventional codes.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:17.17,0:20:22.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The linguistic code is a conventional code. It makes another type of communication—ostensive communication—
Dialogue: 0,0:20:22.23,0:20:25.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,more powerful than otherwise would be.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:31.02,0:20:34.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OK, so now we understand what language is.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:34.71,0:20:41.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Languages are conventional codes designed to make a type
Dialogue: 0,0:20:41.17,0:20:44.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of communication more expressively powerful than otherwise would be.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:44.89,0:20:48.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And with that thought in mind we can be very clear about what it is
Dialogue: 0,0:20:48.59,0:20:51.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we're trying to explain the origins and evolution of.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:51.19,0:20:55.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And we can boil this down to two things: on the one hand, we need to explain
Dialogue: 0,0:20:55.62,0:21:00.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,how we evolved the social-cognitive mechanisms that make ostensive communication
Dialogue: 0,0:21:00.12,0:21:05.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,possible in first place. That's one challenge. And the other challenge is to explain
Dialogue: 0,0:21:05.85,0:21:09.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the creation, the cultural evolution of the conventional code itself.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:09.81,0:21:13.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,How, when we're interacting with each other, do we create these codes, converge upon
Dialogue: 0,0:21:13.98,0:21:17.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,shared meanings for those codes. And how do they change in the way they're used
Dialogue: 0,0:21:17.95,0:21:20.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in interaction, passed between generations, to come to take the
Dialogue: 0,0:21:20.89,0:21:23.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,structural features that we associate with languages.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:23.80,0:21:28.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They're really, to my mind, the two big questions for evolutionary linguistics.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:28.90,0:21:31.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm going to talk in the rest of the talk about number one.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:31.47,0:21:36.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Number two is where I think cultural attraction has a big role to play, and it's a very exciting
Dialogue: 0,0:21:36.27,0:21:39.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,area for research, but I'm not going to talk about that today. I'm going to focus
Dialogue: 0,0:21:39.83,0:21:42.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for the rest of the talk on number one.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:45.16,0:21:51.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There's a whole body of research looking at, comparing the cognitive abilities
Dialogue: 0,0:21:51.03,0:21:57.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of humans, in particular human children, with those of our primate relatives, particularly chimpanzees.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:59.83,0:22:05.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Then immediately, when I look at this literature I see a bit of... it's a challenge to comparison,
Dialogue: 0,0:22:05.32,0:22:09.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when we look at it from the pragmatic perspective.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:09.87,0:22:15.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In pragmatics we have a rich body of theory, we've defined this thing called ostensive communication.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:15.50,0:22:19.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's a very central idea about how human communication works.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:19.08,0:22:23.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And people looking at non-human primate communication certainly recognize the
Dialogue: 0,0:22:23.16,0:22:26.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,importance of pragmatics –there's no question of that.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:26.23,0:22:30.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The idea that intentions are critical is central to that literature.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:30.63,0:22:34.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But what people have been studying for the most part is not this,
Dialogue: 0,0:22:34.84,0:22:39.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but something else that is called intentional communication.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:39.35,0:22:45.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The question is, well, are these the same thing? If not, how do they differ?
Dialogue: 0,0:22:48.38,0:22:51.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I think they're different things.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:51.12,0:22:55.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,When people look for intentional communication in the primate literature,
Dialogue: 0,0:22:55.51,0:22:59.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there's a whole bunch of different criteria that are used,
Dialogue: 0,0:22:59.46,0:23:02.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sometimes consistently, sometimes inconsistently,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:02.52,0:23:03.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,between different studies.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:03.90,0:23:07.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And sometimes that inconsistency is for good methodological reasons.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:07.77,0:23:12.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's easier to look for certain of these criteria in one domain,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:12.04,0:23:16.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,say in the vocal domain rather than in the gesture domain and so on.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:16.17,0:23:21.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But anyway, the literature by and large tends to use some or all of these seven criteria
Dialogue: 0,0:23:21.79,0:23:25.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as measures of intentional communication.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:27.42,0:23:32.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And some of these might be stronger or weaker than others.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:32.06,0:23:35.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, rather than going into a detailed discussion of these, what I want to bring attention to
Dialogue: 0,0:23:35.71,0:23:39.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is that all of these are really about goal-directedness.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:39.08,0:23:41.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They're about how the signal itself is used.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:41.91,0:23:46.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, is the signal used in a goal-directed way, in an intentional way?,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:46.99,0:23:54.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or is it used in a more... less socially-sensitive way?, in a way that perhaps suggests,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:54.01,0:23:57.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,less meta-psychology involved?
Dialogue: 0,0:23:59.40,0:24:03.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, thinking back to what ostensive communications is, ostensive communication is defined
Dialogue: 0,0:24:03.61,0:24:07.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as the expression of intentions. So what intentions are doing here,
Dialogue: 0,0:24:07.83,0:24:11.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they're the thing that is being expressed, they're what is expressed.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:11.80,0:24:15.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I express my informative intentions and my communicative intentions.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:15.88,0:24:19.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,When I point in a stylized way rather than an incidental way, I'm expressing
Dialogue: 0,0:24:19.72,0:24:21.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a communicative intention.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:21.56,0:24:25.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Whereas what's been studied in the primate literature, it seems to me,
Dialogue: 0,0:24:25.44,0:24:30.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is "how" signals are being produced: are they produced in an intentional way or not?
Dialogue: 0,0:24:30.46,0:24:32.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So these are not quite the same thing.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:32.64,0:24:39.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Having said that, you'll often see the language used in the literature conflating the two.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:39.02,0:24:44.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, these communicative intentions (this phrase) has a technical definition in pragmatics,
Dialogue: 0,0:24:44.98,0:24:50.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is the thing that expresses the signaling signalhood, the fact that you're trying to communicate.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:50.77,0:24:55.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But this paper is certainly very much talking about an intention to communicate,
Dialogue: 0,0:24:55.54,0:24:58.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,actually about this sort of thing.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:58.02,0:25:01.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It is not obvious to me that these are the same things.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:01.52,0:25:09.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What we need to look at is: Do we see the expression and recognition of informative and communicative intentions?
Dialogue: 0,0:25:09.36,0:25:13.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That's what ostensive communication is at bottom.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:13.16,0:25:15.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so that's really the question we should be asking.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:15.72,0:25:20.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And there's at least enough data out there for us to give us a tentative answer to this question so...
Dialogue: 0,0:25:20.77,0:25:22.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That's where we're going now.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:22.98,0:25:28.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, the expression and the recognition of communicative intentions and informative intentions.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:28.38,0:25:34.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We have a two-by-two grid and we can ask about both human children and about great apes.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:35.74,0:25:39.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And first we're going to look at the expression of informative intention.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:39.22,0:25:43.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,An informative intention is an intention to manipulate a mental state.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:43.43,0:25:47.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I have an intention to change your mental states right now
Dialogue: 0,0:25:47.12,0:25:50.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about what informative attentions are, and so on and so forth.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:50.21,0:25:52.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So how might we go about testing this in the lab?
Dialogue: 0,0:25:52.68,0:25:54.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Here's one way.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:54.17,0:26:00.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In this study, the children come into the lab and they play a game set up in various ways
Dialogue: 0,0:26:00.10,0:26:05.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but the long made short of it is that the child is going to make a request off the adult
Dialogue: 0,0:26:05.17,0:26:07.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for an object. In this case a ball.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:07.80,0:26:13.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then they're going to get the ball, but they're going get it in one of two different conditions.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:13.05,0:26:17.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Either they're going to get it because the experimenter says, "Oh, you want the ball?, here's the ball" -everybody's happy.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:17.44,0:26:24.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Or the experimenter says, "Oh, you want the paper? (or the elephant?), and then, accidentally, gives them the ball.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:24.71,0:26:29.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So in this case the child has the material goal satisfied
Dialogue: 0,0:26:29.75,0:26:36.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but if they have an informative intention, an intention to manipulate a mental state, that's actually not been satisfied,
Dialogue: 0,0:26:36.70,0:26:41.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because the adult's mental state has not been changed in the way that the child so wished.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:41.64,0:26:44.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Whereas in this case that has happened.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:44.43,0:26:48.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And what we find is that children kick up a fuss in this situation, they start complaining.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:48.64,0:26:52.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"No, you didn't understand"; "No, I want the ball"; "But you have the ball;"
Dialogue: 0,0:26:52.16,0:26:54.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"but, but, but..." And you can see where this goes.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:54.51,0:27:00.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The fact that they're complaining shows that their goals are not simply material, not simply to get the ball,
Dialogue: 0,0:27:00.71,0:27:04.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but change the mental state of the adult, which in turn will get them the ball.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:04.98,0:27:10.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So children understand, they have some understanding, of what an informative intention is,
Dialogue: 0,0:27:10.78,0:27:16.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and are able to express it, and understand when that intention has been satisfied or not.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:17.35,0:27:20.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Nobody's done the comparable experiment with great apes.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:24.78,0:27:29.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Recognition of an informative intention... Well, actually, here nobody's done the experiment
Dialogue: 0,0:27:29.42,0:27:31.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with great apes or with children.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:31.24,0:27:34.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the sort of experiment that could be done would be
Dialogue: 0,0:27:34.75,0:27:41.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,similar to the previous one I've just described, but perhaps with an observer and if that observer...
Dialogue: 0,0:27:42.80,0:27:45.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Hold on, my thoughts have gone blank, sorry...
Dialogue: 0,0:27:52.22,0:27:53.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Sorry --I have a mind blank.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:59.73,0:28:01.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,No, my mind's gone blank.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:01.53,0:28:05.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Hopefully you're doing the work for me and you're on your own!
Dialogue: 0,0:28:05.03,0:28:05.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Sorry?
Dialogue: 0,0:28:05.88,0:28:07.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[...unintelligible...]
Dialogue: 0,0:28:07.05,0:28:08.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,--Yeah, maybe so yes
Dialogue: 0,0:28:08.89,0:28:18.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[(...unintelligible...) the wrong thing is given and the observer says bad-bad-bad or something?]
Dialogue: 0,0:28:18.74,0:28:21.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Good, good okay, yes twice! Coming back now...!
Dialogue: 0,0:28:21.19,0:28:25.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, let's say... Let's go back to the previous one...
Dialogue: 0,0:28:28.55,0:28:32.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Let's say we're in this situation and then the child doesn't complain,
Dialogue: 0,0:28:32.76,0:28:36.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or another adult—there are two adults—and this adult asks for the ball,
Dialogue: 0,0:28:36.40,0:28:39.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,gets the ball, even though they we're misunderstood.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:39.82,0:28:44.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Does the observer say, "Hold on!!, something's not up, something's not right here..."?
Dialogue: 0,0:28:44.20,0:28:49.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And if they do, they're recognizing that somebody else—namely this person—has an informative intention.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:49.35,0:28:51.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Nobody's done that experiment with kids or with apes.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:52.99,0:28:55.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So we don't know the answer to that.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:55.42,0:29:00.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Let's look now at communicative intentions. Communicative intentions are intentions to make it
Dialogue: 0,0:29:00.87,0:29:05.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,apparent to your audience that you have an informative intention. It's signaling signalhood.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:05.84,0:29:11.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Making apparent to somebody that you want to communicate with them in the first place.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:13.63,0:29:18.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the recognition of communicative intentions has been studied in several different ways.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:18.35,0:29:22.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think the clearest demonstration is in this paper. What happens here...
Dialogue: 0,0:29:22.40,0:29:25.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(This is where the example of the point, the incidental point
Dialogue: 0,0:29:25.24,0:29:28.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because I'm looking at my watch, and the direct point come from).
Dialogue: 0,0:29:28.32,0:29:33.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In this study the children and the experimenter play a game and they
Dialogue: 0,0:29:33.72,0:29:38.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,play with his toys, and then the game comes to an end and they have to pack the toys away.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:38.94,0:29:44.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And they do so. One of the toys is accidentally sort of left out somewhere else in the room.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:44.61,0:29:50.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the child is (...), and the experimenter points at the toy.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:50.97,0:29:58.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the experimenter either points at the toy in a very ostensive, deliberate, stylized way
Dialogue: 0,0:29:58.08,0:30:00.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,—i.e. with expression of communicative intention—
Dialogue: 0,0:30:00.82,0:30:08.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like this, looking at the child. Or they point (they're still pointing) but they're looking at their watch.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:08.57,0:30:12.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, superficially similar behaviors but one expresses a communicative intention,
Dialogue: 0,0:30:12.46,0:30:14.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the other one doesn't.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:14.11,0:30:18.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And what happens is that children are far more likely to go and fetch the toy
Dialogue: 0,0:30:18.49,0:30:22.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and put it away when the communicative intention has been expressed.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:22.04,0:30:25.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So it seems that the children are able to recognize the communicative intention
Dialogue: 0,0:30:25.13,0:30:27.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when is expressed by an adult.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:28.81,0:30:32.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Again, not been done in great apes.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:32.36,0:30:40.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[So what about meta communication and play (…unintelligible…) What about in another domain? —
Dialogue: 0,0:30:40.87,0:30:45.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(….) multi component signals where part of it is what follows is going to be
Dialogue: 0,0:30:45.14,0:30:49.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(...potentially informative...), which has been demonstrated in lots of studies?
Dialogue: 0,0:30:49.56,0:30:50.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Right...
Dialogue: 0,0:30:52.12,0:30:59.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Isn't that a signal about a signal? Isn't that a signal about "pay attention to what follows"?
Dialogue: 0,0:31:01.55,0:31:06.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I don’t know the literature you’re referring to in enough detail, so I’d have to look at that
Dialogue: 0,0:31:06.78,0:31:08.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to be able to answer the question.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:08.83,0:31:13.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[(...Playouts....), you know, things like that… that all animals would engage in
Dialogue: 0,0:31:13.44,0:31:17.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(…some kind of game and pay attention to signals…)] and what follows is going to be play]
Dialogue: 0,0:31:17.50,0:31:20.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,These things are akin to attention-getters I guess…
Dialogue: 0,0:31:20.96,0:31:26.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[…and then you can think about multi-component signals (...) (...that later...) become informative in same way.]
Dialogue: 0,0:31:26.88,0:31:31.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So it seems to me… I’m more familiar with the idea of attention-getters…
Dialogue: 0,0:31:31.47,0:31:34.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that seems to be similar to what you’re pointing to.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:34.47,0:31:37.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That seems describable to me in terms of a natural code.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:37.61,0:31:44.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So you can form associations between those behaviors and a subsequent behavior,
Dialogue: 0,0:31:44.74,0:31:48.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and hence you can say, well, this would be a natural code.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:48.14,0:31:55.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What's going on here is that... The study I just described would be stronger if it wasn't pointing,
Dialogue: 0,0:31:55.18,0:32:00.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if it was something that was.... uncontroversially could not have been said
Dialogue: 0,0:32:00.36,0:32:06.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that any convention could have been formed. And that's really the Litmus test, right?
Dialogue: 0,0:32:06.84,0:32:11.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So it's that... when I was in the pub with my friend and I tilted my hand...
Dialogue: 0,0:32:11.52,0:32:18.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There's no pre-established convention or anything else there... When you do see... Yes?
Dialogue: 0,0:32:19.02,0:32:28.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[unintelligible] Are (...) necessary? In the sense that, if you take a more continuous view of
Dialogue: 0,0:32:28.12,0:32:32.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the evolution of signals or the evolution of meaning or the evolution of manipulation,
Dialogue: 0,0:32:32.74,0:32:42.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,arbitrariness is great, that was (X)'s criteria, but you can imagine pressures, structure,
Dialogue: 0,0:32:42.76,0:32:49.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,form-follows-function, function-follows-design criteria, things sound and look certain ways to be
Dialogue: 0,0:32:49.24,0:32:55.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,effective—efficacy—and it's nice to sort of say that humans are (...great...) because
Dialogue: 0,0:32:55.62,0:33:02.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we can (...have arbitrary...) signals, but is that a necessary component of thinking about these intentional...
Dialogue: 0,0:33:02.86,0:33:05.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,No no, I'm not saying...
Dialogue: 0,0:33:05.17,0:33:11.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm not trying to link arbitrariness to this distinction I'm trying to draw up here at the moment.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:11.67,0:33:16.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What I'm saying is that the best way to test the true expression and
Dialogue: 0,0:33:16.66,0:33:20.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,recognition of communicative intentions is in a context where
Dialogue: 0,0:33:20.40,0:33:24.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there's no way that you can say that this is a conventional code, a natural code of any sort.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:24.85,0:33:28.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm interested in the question of how you test for these things,
Dialogue: 0,0:33:28.01,0:33:30.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the best way to do that would be in that way.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:30.76,0:33:33.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Coming back to the attention-getters, I mean...
Dialogue: 0,0:33:33.47,0:33:37.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Most of them seem to be iconic?, from my knowledge of them...
Dialogue: 0,0:33:37.76,0:33:40.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's conceivable that they don't have to be.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:40.36,0:33:44.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But either way, they can be described in terms of a natural code.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:44.19,0:33:45.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[I agree with that.]
Dialogue: 0,0:33:45.41,0:33:46.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, OK.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:49.13,0:33:53.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OK, finally, the expression of communicative intention:
Dialogue: 0,0:33:53.34,0:33:59.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,expressing the fact that you want to communicate with somebody else.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:59.53,0:34:04.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, how are you going to go about testing this in children? (Well, in great apes I really don't know),
Dialogue: 0,0:34:04.62,0:34:07.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but in children is much straight forward.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:08.39,0:34:11.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,A few years ago, I spent some time in Mike Tomasello's lab and
Dialogue: 0,0:34:11.85,0:34:15.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we looked into something that is not strictly speaking the expression of
Dialogue: 0,0:34:15.43,0:34:20.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,communicative intentions but it shows exactly the same sort of thing.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:20.06,0:34:23.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We were interested in something called "hidden authorship".
Dialogue: 0,0:34:23.70,0:34:26.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,With hidden authorship –this is providing a stimulus for someone
Dialogue: 0,0:34:26.83,0:34:30.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but hiding the fact that you're actually proving it for them.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:30.17,0:34:34.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Imagine you are at a polite dinner party and you want some more wine but
Dialogue: 0,0:34:34.10,0:34:37.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is impolite for you to ask your host for more wine directly.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:37.45,0:34:43.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So you wait until he or she has turned their back and then you move your empty wine glass to
Dialogue: 0,0:34:43.06,0:34:46.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,somewhere conspicuous in the middle of the table, and you wait for them to turn around and
Dialogue: 0,0:34:46.64,0:34:48.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the see the wine glass and they fill it up.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:48.69,0:34:53.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So you provided a stimulus for someone but you hidden the fact that is for them.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:53.10,0:34:55.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And this is interesting because...
Dialogue: 0,0:34:56.81,0:35:01.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it expresses an intention, or is evidence of an intention which has
Dialogue: 0,0:35:01.40,0:35:05.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the same relationship to an informative intention that communicative intention does.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:05.92,0:35:07.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It just is a negative.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:07.12,0:35:08.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So rather than,
Dialogue: 0,0:35:08.88,0:35:12.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"I intend that you understand that I have an informative intention",
Dialogue: 0,0:35:12.19,0:35:16.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"I intend that you don't understand that I have an informative intention towards you".
Dialogue: 0,0:35:16.30,0:35:18.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Otherwise, it is the same sort of thing.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:18.42,0:35:21.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So we wanted to test whether children could hide authorship.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:21.82,0:35:24.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So here is how we went about it.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:24.04,0:35:27.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The first thing I should say is that we did it with 3- and 4 year-olds, quite young kids.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:27.97,0:35:31.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This kind is quite a bit older but that's because this video is from the pilot study, but
Dialogue: 0,0:35:31.97,0:35:34.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is representative of what happened.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:34.38,0:35:39.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So... there's Experimenter 1 here, and the child, this is Experimenter 2.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:39.03,0:35:43.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Experimenter 1 and the child come into the room first and they find in the middle of the room this
Dialogue: 0,0:35:43.55,0:35:48.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,box which has four hose in it, and you can see from the hose what kind of objects belong in there.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:48.78,0:35:52.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There's a hat, there's car and there's a ball, and so on and so forth.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:52.69,0:35:56.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And, "Oh, I like the hiding and finding game, we need to find these objects that
Dialogue: 0,0:35:56.92,0:35:59.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are hidden around the room so let's go and find them".
Dialogue: 0,0:35:59.68,0:36:02.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So the experimenter and the child find the objects.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:02.21,0:36:06.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And in that way the child -excuse me, they find the objects and then the experimenter says,
Dialogue: 0,0:36:06.41,0:36:10.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"Oh, experimenter 2 is coming along as well and she really likes the hiding-finding game and so
Dialogue: 0,0:36:10.64,0:36:14.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we need to put these object back where we found them so she can have a go herself".
Dialogue: 0,0:36:14.16,0:36:17.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They go about that. So the child now knows where all the objects are.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:17.50,0:36:20.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Then the child sits down just here, next to Experimenter 1.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:20.85,0:36:25.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Experimenter 2 comes in and is going to play the hiding-and-finding game.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:25.76,0:36:30.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Before I explain exactly what she does, is worth stressing that the ball that goes in here
Dialogue: 0,0:36:30.11,0:36:33.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is hidden just behind this barrier, just next to where the child sits down.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:33.65,0:36:36.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This barrier here is the same as this barrier here.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:36.98,0:36:41.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And Experimenter 2 comes in and says, "Oh, is the hiding-and-finding game,
Dialogue: 0,0:36:41.49,0:36:45.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I really like the game," and then she says "but" and she says
Dialogue: 0,0:36:45.39,0:36:48.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,one of two different things depending on condition:
Dialogue: 0,0:36:48.46,0:36:52.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,She either says, "Oh, I really don't like it if I can't complete it,"
Dialogue: 0,0:36:52.23,0:36:55.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in which case she's given the child reasons to help her, or she says:
Dialogue: 0,0:36:55.51,0:36:59.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"But I really don't like it if anyone helps me complete it,"
Dialogue: 0,0:36:59.01,0:37:02.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so now she's forbidden the child to help her find the object.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:02.76,0:37:06.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So then she goes around and finds a couple of the objects.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:06.69,0:37:10.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,She's already found the hat as you can see, and then there's a couple of others she can't find them.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:10.96,0:37:13.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"Oh, where's the ball, I cant find it, I'm looking everywhere."
Dialogue: 0,0:37:13.33,0:37:17.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,She spends plenty of time with her back to the child so the child can do
Dialogue: 0,0:37:17.18,0:37:19.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,various things to help her without her knowing.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:19.60,0:37:22.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the question is what the childs going to do.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:22.03,0:37:25.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So keep your eye on this child here and what he does with ball.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:31.50,0:37:35.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So he takes the ball, moves it in front, and the experimenter turns around and says,
Dialogue: 0,0:37:35.64,0:37:39.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"Oh, there's the ball why didn't I see it earlier, it was always there in clear view",
Dialogue: 0,0:37:39.32,0:37:41.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the child is very happy.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:41.10,0:37:46.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This is a 7-year-old child as I said; you do it with younger kids is not quite as clean as this [laughs]
Dialogue: 0,0:37:46.71,0:37:53.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They do things like: Ahem! [laughs] and, in various ways, try to have it both ways.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:53.40,0:37:57.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But the fact that they want to have it both ways, shows that they understand the difference between
Dialogue: 0,0:37:57.92,0:38:02.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,an informative intention—providing the stimulus for someone—and a communicative intention:
Dialogue: 0,0:38:02.93,0:38:05.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the fact that youre trying to communicate with them.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:05.51,0:38:10.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We find very clear differences in both in 3- and 5-year olds
Dialogue: 0,0:38:10.55,0:38:17.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in terms of the number of times they suppress that intention in various trials.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:20.61,0:38:25.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OK, so here's our provisional conclusions... Go ahead.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:25.22,0:38:29.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[Oh, after you do your provisional conclusions...]
Dialogue: 0,0:38:29.43,0:38:32.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OK. Is it going to be about this slide, is it? or...
Dialogue: 0,0:38:32.19,0:38:35.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[It's about this experiment as a whole, so...]
Dialogue: 0,0:38:35.11,0:38:36.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Go now
Dialogue: 0,0:38:36.55,0:38:38.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[No (...unintelligible...)]
Dialogue: 0,0:38:38.35,0:38:44.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,My provisional conclusion is that children are ostensive communicators.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:44.38,0:38:51.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So there isn't any of these cells that isn't filled in and you were right to raise the point that
Dialogue: 0,0:38:51.43,0:38:58.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for this here perhaps could be done without pointing, with some other behavior
Dialogue: 0,0:38:58.55,0:39:03.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But it's starting to look as that the answer for children here is going to be Yes.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:03.83,0:39:08.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The answer for great apes we don't know and there are clear methodological challenges to
Dialogue: 0,0:39:08.29,0:39:11.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,doing these sorts of studies with chimps, I mean I see that.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:11.04,0:39:16.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Nevertheless, when I've spoken to relevant experts of chimpanzee communication and cognition,
Dialogue: 0,0:39:16.18,0:39:21.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they expressed a great deal of skepticism that chimps are going to pass these sorts of studies.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:21.01,0:39:27.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, that's an entirely provisional conclusion, could be overturn by data, of course it could.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:27.06,0:39:29.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But my provisional conclusion...
Dialogue: 0,0:39:29.53,0:39:34.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,–well, I should add also, it's also interesting that the studies haven't been done.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:34.13,0:39:38.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Although some of them... The hidden-authorship study is not at all clear how you'd do that,
Dialogue: 0,0:39:38.58,0:39:40.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,big methodological challenges.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:40.66,0:39:47.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But the first study—about when the ball... and receiving the right object
Dialogue: 0,0:39:47.07,0:39:50.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for the wrong reason and so on and so forth—
Dialogue: 0,0:39:50.07,0:39:55.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that is perhaps amountable, but nobody seems to have done it.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:55.08,0:40:00.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I do wonder if the reason why nobody's done that is because
Dialogue: 0,0:40:00.52,0:40:04.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,researchers are skeptical that chimps are going to pass it and if you get negative
Dialogue: 0,0:40:04.77,0:40:07.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,results is perhaps difficult to interpret, difficult to publish...
Dialogue: 0,0:40:07.89,0:40:11.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Maybe little motivation to pursuing such an experiment if you're skeptical about
Dialogue: 0,0:40:11.72,0:40:16.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the possible outcome. Entirely provisional. Totally, these conclusions could be overturned by data,
Dialogue: 0,0:40:16.74,0:40:20.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but for now, it seems to me that the data suggest that non-human primates
Dialogue: 0,0:40:20.74,0:40:24.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are not communicating in an ostensive, inferential way.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:24.68,0:40:29.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[I don't know if you have maybe just 30 seconds, depending upon your time...
Dialogue: 0,0:40:29.68,0:40:35.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(...unintelligible...)
Dialogue: 0,0:40:35.97,0:40:39.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,... but the division you spoke of…
Dialogue: 0,0:40:41.49,0:40:47.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You’re looking at the social aspects… of the subject here, right?
Dialogue: 0,0:40:49.04,0:40:55.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(...of...) the ostensive and the informative things… You said (...your work is going to look...) at cultural…
Dialogue: 0,0:40:56.40,0:41:02.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Beyond a certain age—in humans of course—culture is very strong.]
Dialogue: 0,0:41:02.85,0:41:04.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Of course, yes.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:04.70,0:41:15.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[... And whether or not a teenager or an adult is going to do something that a child
Dialogue: 0,0:41:15.29,0:41:23.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,might do is a question… And how they’re going to do it, is certainly a question….
Dialogue: 0,0:41:23.66,0:41:26.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So my basic question is…
Dialogue: 0,0:41:30.46,0:41:33.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What is your justification for
Dialogue: 0,0:41:33.46,0:41:42.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,separating the social from the cultural… And perhaps if you have time (….),
Dialogue: 0,0:41:42.49,0:41:51.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,could you give us a minute of what that cultural research is that you’re doing, on this area?]
Dialogue: 0,0:41:51.40,0:41:55.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm not trying to separate social from cultural, that's the first thing to say.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:55.93,0:42:01.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What I am separating out is the social-cognitive mechanisms—cognitive mechanisms—
Dialogue: 0,0:42:01.32,0:42:05.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that make ostensive communication possible in the first place.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:05.37,0:42:10.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So they're mechanisms of meta-psychology which (...gives rise...) to these sorts of behaviors...
Dialogue: 0,0:42:10.31,0:42:15.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[My question is how can you, particularly with teenagers and adults,
Dialogue: 0,0:42:15.99,0:42:22.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,take out the strong cultural influences (...)?]
Dialogue: 0,0:42:22.18,0:42:23.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm not trying to.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:23.27,0:42:31.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[You're not? So if you had time (...) to talk a little bit about the
Dialogue: 0,0:42:31.43,0:42:35.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,cultural aspects of your research in this area]
Dialogue: 0,0:42:35.15,0:42:41.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I still have three slides to go... Can I do that in the question session?
Dialogue: 0,0:42:41.17,0:42:45.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[OK, so that'd be my first question] [laughs]
Dialogue: 0,0:42:47.92,0:42:52.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I've made this dichotomy earlier between two different ways of thinking about the
Dialogue: 0,0:42:52.37,0:42:54.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,possibility of communication.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:54.67,0:42:59.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, ostension and inference on the one hand, which provisionally for now I'm going to say
Dialogue: 0,0:42:59.27,0:43:03.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,only seems to be present in humans... And on the other hand code-model communication.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:03.88,0:43:07.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So if it is the case that non-human primates don't communicate ostensibly
Dialogue: 0,0:43:07.03,0:43:10.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then it should be the case that they communicate using natural codes.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:10.27,0:43:13.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But we should check that. Let's look at the data here.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:13.44,0:43:15.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Do they communicate using natural codes?
Dialogue: 0,0:43:15.77,0:43:20.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's certainly true that great apes gestural communication is accepted to be intentional.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:20.73,0:43:24.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And there's a live debate in the literature at the moment about the origins of
Dialogue: 0,0:43:24.06,0:43:27.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the the codes that are being used.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:27.06,0:43:31.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,On the one hand, you have researchers arguing that processes of ontogenetic ritualization
Dialogue: 0,0:43:31.69,0:43:37.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,can give rise to these codes; others saying that there's more of a perhaps innate
Dialogue: 0,0:43:37.21,0:43:39.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or, in some ways, species-wide repertoire.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:39.59,0:43:44.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The point I want to make is that either way, what we're looking at here is
Dialogue: 0,0:43:44.23,0:43:47.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,an argument about the origins of associations
Dialogue: 0,0:43:47.23,0:43:51.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,between states of the world and behaviors and between behaviors and responses.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:51.58,0:43:54.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In other words, the origins of natural codes.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:54.04,0:43:57.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, they're not using the language of the natural codes,
Dialogue: 0,0:43:57.31,0:44:00.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but they're talking about associations of certain types.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:00.45,0:44:04.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That's pervasive through the discussions that are going on in this literature.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:04.76,0:44:10.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Here is a quote: "We conducted naturalistic observations of wild East African chimpanzee...
Dialogue: 0,0:44:10.55,0:44:14.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Our results indicate that chimpanzees are able to respond flexibly"
Dialogue: 0,0:44:14.76,0:44:17.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Why did I put that quote there? I've no idea [laughs].
Dialogue: 0,0:44:17.56,0:44:20.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That might be lost ignore that!
Dialogue: 0,0:44:20.54,0:44:24.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's kind of relevant but I don't know [...unintelligible...] the point I was trying to make.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:24.98,0:44:29.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Oh yeah –this is why. OK, let me go back, now I know why...
Dialogue: 0,0:44:29.03,0:44:31.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Sorry. Let's go down to here.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:31.56,0:44:36.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OK, so there's the natural code. What's particularly interesting about these natural codes
Dialogue: 0,0:44:36.03,0:44:38.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is that they seem to be used in a very flexible way.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:38.21,0:44:42.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So we can describe for example bacterial communication in terms of a natural code
Dialogue: 0,0:44:42.09,0:44:48.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and that'd be a very fixed natural code governed by various, relatively simple, mechanisms.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:50.84,0:44:54.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But it seems to be more flexible in chimpanzees, so there's the question of
Dialogue: 0,0:44:54.23,0:44:56.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where that flexibility comes from.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:56.78,0:44:59.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the natural answer would be some sort of Theory of Mind,
Dialogue: 0,0:44:59.01,0:45:02.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,meta-psychological abilities of some sort.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:02.01,0:45:07.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Obviously, as I'm sure many or most or all of you are aware,
Dialogue: 0,0:45:07.71,0:45:11.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there are live debates about exactly what the extent of
Dialogue: 0,0:45:11.78,0:45:16.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,such abilities might be in chimpanzees, but it seems to be... It might not be a full-blown
Dialogue: 0,0:45:16.14,0:45:19.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Theory of Mind but some sort of awareness of the goals of others
Dialogue: 0,0:45:19.68,0:45:23.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that does seem to be present in some of our primate relatives.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:23.14,0:45:26.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So the answer to the question here is a kind of "Yes, but..."
Dialogue: 0,0:45:26.55,0:45:31.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yes, they seem to use natural codes, but they're natural codes which
Dialogue: 0,0:45:31.72,0:45:36.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are being made more expressively powerful by forms of meta-psychology.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:36.87,0:45:40.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This, interestingly, appears to be the very opposite of
Dialogue: 0,0:45:40.21,0:45:43.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what we actually see in linguistic communication.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:43.21,0:45:49.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So linguistic communication is made possible by mechanisms of meta-psychology,
Dialogue: 0,0:45:49.93,0:45:54.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which allow us to shrug, to point, to do all these things that we do non-verbally.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:54.39,0:45:59.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then it's made more precise and expressively powerful by mechanisms of association;
Dialogue: 0,0:45:59.18,0:46:01.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,by the fact that we can create these conventions.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:01.54,0:46:03.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Great-ape communication seems to be entirely the other way up.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:03.99,0:46:06.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's made possible by these natural codes,
Dialogue: 0,0:46:06.59,0:46:09.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but then it's used in a particularly flexible way which makes it richer
Dialogue: 0,0:46:09.83,0:46:16.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,than other natural codes out there in the natural world because of some forms of meta-psychology.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:16.47,0:46:21.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, how would we tell the difference between these two different types of communication?
Dialogue: 0,0:46:21.72,0:46:25.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, if you have a set of associations made more powerful by meta-psychology,
Dialogue: 0,0:46:25.76,0:46:35.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then what you should expect to see is some sort of more finite set of prototypes of some sort...
Dialogue: 0,0:46:35.02,0:46:39.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that's the base of associations, but then is used in more flexible ways.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:39.30,0:46:42.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it seems to me that the quote from that paper and other papers
Dialogue: 0,0:46:42.84,0:46:45.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,seem to be pointing in that direction.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:45.84,0:46:52.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Papers that are looking at cataloguing what non-human primate communication systems look like
Dialogue: 0,0:46:52.41,0:46:55.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are converging upon this sort of conclusion.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:55.09,0:46:58.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,On the other hand, if you have a system made possible by meta-psychology,
Dialogue: 0,0:46:58.84,0:47:01.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and then made more powerful by associations,
Dialogue: 0,0:47:01.34,0:47:05.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then essentially anything goes! If it's made possibly by meta-psychology,
Dialogue: 0,0:47:05.09,0:47:09.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then you can create new signals at will.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:09.22,0:47:13.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You can have associations that can be used in all sorts of ways.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:13.60,0:47:19.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And you have the one-off use of novel behaviors like the twisting of my wrist for communicative ends.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:19.38,0:47:22.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This seems to be what we see in language. \N
Dialogue: 0,0:47:24.04,0:47:29.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,These points have important implications for how we think about continuity and discontinuity
Dialogue: 0,0:47:29.24,0:47:31.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in human communication and language.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:31.39,0:47:34.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,As said earlier, it's a common assumption in evolutionary linguistics,
Dialogue: 0,0:47:34.92,0:47:38.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or in linguistics in general and in evolutionary linguistics,
Dialogue: 0,0:47:38.64,0:47:42.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that the code is the thing that makes everything possible and the pragmatics
Dialogue: 0,0:47:42.83,0:47:46.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,goes on top as if the messy stuff goes on top to make it more powerful.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:46.53,0:47:50.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And you can see that... This is James Hurfords two books, 2007, 2012.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:50.91,0:47:55.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"We may see in alarm calls a skeletal version of our own shared codes"
Dialogue: 0,0:47:55.76,0:47:59.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,–so the continuity there, between the monkeys calls and human languages.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:59.58,0:48:03.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"It seems quite plausible that the earlier precursors of language were much more,
Dialogue: 0,0:48:03.62,0:48:06.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,perhaps entirely, coding-decoding in nature".
Dialogue: 0,0:48:06.67,0:48:10.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So language starts as a code model then you have the pragmatics on later.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:10.49,0:48:12.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think this is a big mistake.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:12.98,0:48:19.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The emphasis on continuity here is taking the Darwinian lesson that form changes very gradually,
Dialogue: 0,0:48:19.60,0:48:22.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but then applying it to function too.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:22.52,0:48:29.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's a bit like saying, Well, flying is a very powerful form of locomotion, walking is less powerful,
Dialogue: 0,0:48:29.58,0:48:34.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Darwin tells us these things change gradually, so one must have evolved from the other.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:34.86,0:48:36.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That doesn't fly.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:36.18,0:48:38.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The real continuity here is in social intelligence.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:38.75,0:48:42.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, non-human primate communication is made more expressively powerful by
Dialogue: 0,0:48:42.00,0:48:45.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,forms of meta-psychology.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:45.00,0:48:50.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,When they're made even more rich, they allow a whole new type of communication system:
Dialogue: 0,0:48:50.07,0:48:55.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,ostensive communication. When you start adding the layers, the recursive mind-reading layers,
Dialogue: 0,0:48:55.22,0:49:01.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then from the total that was being used to make a natural code more powerful,
Dialogue: 0,0:49:01.20,0:49:04.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you suddenly get a quite new form of communication: ostensive communication,
Dialogue: 0,0:49:04.95,0:49:09.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which really opens the flood gates to all sorts of communicative richness.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:11.46,0:49:13.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OK , let me wrap up.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:13.18,0:49:19.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Human communication is ostensive and inferential. We're expressing and recognizing intentions;
Dialogue: 0,0:49:19.54,0:49:22.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,informative and communicative intentions.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:22.31,0:49:26.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's critical when we're thinking about the evolution of language to distinguish
Dialogue: 0,0:49:26.58,0:49:29.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,between natural codes and conventional codes.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:29.10,0:49:32.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Natural codes make communication possible in the first place.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:32.29,0:49:36.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Computers communicate in that way, bacteria do, and so on and so forth.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:36.32,0:49:40.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Conventional codes do something quite different. They make an already-existing,
Dialogue: 0,0:49:40.04,0:49:45.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,different type of communication systems more powerful than otherwise would be.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:46.51,0:49:50.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Something I didn't talk about in detail was that point number two from earlier.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:50.69,0:49:53.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If we're going to look at cultural evolution of conventional codes,
Dialogue: 0,0:49:53.34,0:49:58.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the right framework I think to do that, is cultural attraction.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:00.79,0:50:04.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Non-human primate communication is probably using natural codes.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:04.87,0:50:08.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That is a conclusion that could be overturned by more data.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:08.47,0:50:15.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But it is made more expressive by some limited forms of meta-psychological abilities.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:15.57,0:50:21.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What that tells us is that the continuity between non-human primates and humans
Dialogue: 0,0:50:21.24,0:50:23.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is really in social intelligence.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:23.53,0:50:27.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It goes from limited forms of mind-reading and manipulation to
Dialogue: 0,0:50:27.31,0:50:32.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a form of mind-reading and manipulation where we're actually helping each other do that.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:32.14,0:50:36.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm encouraging you to read my mind right now, and you're allowing me to
Dialogue: 0,0:50:36.15,0:50:39.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,manipulate your mental states. More generally, pragmatics
Dialogue: 0,0:50:39.70,0:50:46.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,—the messy reality of using language out there in communication in real-world language use—
Dialogue: 0,0:50:46.41,0:50:49.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is solely neglected in language evolution research.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:49.87,0:50:51.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Thank you very much for your time.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:52.22,0:50:56.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[Applause]
Dialogue: 0,0:51:02.51,0:51:08.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[Just if perhaps... 2 or 3 minutes to give an example of your research on
Dialogue: 0,0:51:08.34,0:51:13.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that question which you call cultural attraction. I'd never heard that term before.]
Dialogue: 0,0:51:13.74,0:51:20.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OK. The idea of cultural attraction is... The thing to explain...
Dialogue: 0,0:51:21.12,0:51:26.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, there are ... OK, two or three minutes is long enough.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:27.58,0:51:31.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Culture consists of two types of things:
Dialogue: 0,0:51:31.07,0:51:35.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,mental representations and public expressions of those mental representations.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:35.60,0:51:39.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Some mental representations are widely shared in the community and
Dialogue: 0,0:51:39.32,0:51:43.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,some are only shared sometimes. The ones that are widely shared are the ones we call culture.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:43.66,0:51:47.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So we might all have similar ideas of, you know, God or whatever might be...
Dialogue: 0,0:51:47.58,0:51:51.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And if we have similar versions of that mental representation we call it culture.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:51.54,0:51:56.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The thing that needs explaining is why some mental representations are
Dialogue: 0,0:51:56.09,0:52:00.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,common in a population, some are not common. And...
Dialogue: 0,0:52:03.40,0:52:07.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I guess the key insight in cultural attraction theory is that
Dialogue: 0,0:52:07.12,0:52:12.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as these mental representations and their public expressions are passed through a community...
Dialogue: 0,0:52:12.11,0:52:17.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,As I'm taking to you, I'm taking my mental representations, forming a public expression,
Dialogue: 0,0:52:17.01,0:52:20.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and you're taking that public expression and forming your own mental representations.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:20.87,0:52:23.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There's no guarantee that those two mental representations are the same and
Dialogue: 0,0:52:23.85,0:52:27.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in fact our mechanisms of communication and cognition are actually
Dialogue: 0,0:52:27.08,0:52:30.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,going to manipulate them to fit them with our existing mental representation
Dialogue: 0,0:52:30.15,0:52:32.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and so on and so forth...
Dialogue: 0,0:52:32.29,0:52:37.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And those changes are often going to be common through a population.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:37.83,0:52:41.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So you might change in a very similar way to many other people.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:41.36,0:52:45.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And if many of us are making similar changes,
Dialogue: 0,0:52:45.02,0:52:49.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then those mental representations tend to gravitate in certain directions and not in others.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:49.44,0:52:51.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[...unintelligible...]
Dialogue: 0,0:52:51.14,0:52:57.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, there are subtle though I think very important differences between the labels,
Dialogue: 0,0:52:57.34,0:53:00.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which I'm not going to go into the details...
Dialogue: 0,0:53:00.34,0:53:04.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[I understand that. I think we can stop there as far as I am concern, cause I understand.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:05.00,0:53:09.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Do you know who (...is going to read...) on kin selection?]
Dialogue: 0,0:53:09.33,0:53:20.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[...unintelligible...]
Dialogue: 0,0:53:25.85,0:53:36.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[Taking your argument for Darwinian gradualism seriously, I actually have objections to your flight analogy
Dialogue: 0,0:53:36.87,0:53:40.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(... that'd like to put as an aside...) (...)]
Dialogue: 0,0:53:41.13,0:53:45.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yes, yes, I realize that... It was more to make a point than to...
Dialogue: 0,0:53:45.68,0:53:53.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[I understand... But so, the same concern applies more substantively to your conclusions for
Dialogue: 0,0:53:53.09,0:53:56.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the very differences between the great apes and humans,
Dialogue: 0,0:53:56.24,0:53:59.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is: How do we get from here to there...?
Dialogue: 0,0:53:59.20,0:54:04.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That is, if Theory of Mind abilities and social reasoning in general...
Dialogue: 0,0:54:06.26,0:54:11.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,appear progressively across apes and,
Dialogue: 0,0:54:11.42,0:54:15.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,presumably (...keeping in time...) across hominids, right?,
Dialogue: 0,0:54:15.80,0:54:21.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then why do we get a reversal, why don't we see the same sort of emergence of
Dialogue: 0,0:54:21.84,0:54:27.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,communicative abilities in parallel with mind-reading abilities in, you know,
Dialogue: 0,0:54:27.62,0:54:40.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,co-extinct apes now rather than the reverse (...you claim...)? So, you're claiming that social cognition adds to the ability
Dialogue: 0,0:54:40.11,0:54:47.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to manipulate the natural codes, but (...isn't the...) the driver of much of the behavior,
Dialogue: 0,0:54:47.23,0:54:53.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the reverse is true in humans. And I would say, well, why don't we see the two emerging...
Dialogue: 0,0:54:53.80,0:54:58.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If what we see is more limited abilities in both extents in (...us...)
Dialogue: 0,0:54:58.57,0:55:01.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and great apes, and if we're (...taking them into
Dialogue: 0,0:55:01.57,0:55:07.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,some winter into the past...) (...), then why the reversal? Wouldn't you expect to see, you know,
Dialogue: 0,0:55:07.99,0:55:13.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,according to Darwinian gradualism, wouldn't we expect to see the same kind of linear progression?
Dialogue: 0,0:55:13.40,0:55:16.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That is, there's no half-a-wing problem there, you know.
Dialogue: 0,0:55:16.79,0:55:19.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There's a little bit of a forelimb with some feathers on it, then there's a bit more
Dialogue: 0,0:55:19.79,0:55:23.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and a bit more, and stops being a forelimb and starts being a wing and so on...]
Dialogue: 0,0:55:23.63,0:55:31.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OK, good yes. So... In a way, the point where my analogy with locomotion and wings falls down is
Dialogue: 0,0:55:31.68,0:55:36.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,exactly where, how I want to answer the question. So, that analogy isn't perfect, I grant.
Dialogue: 0,0:55:36.94,0:55:40.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You get into the details of ostensive communication... It's
Dialogue: 0,0:55:40.23,0:55:45.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,an intention that you understand I have an intention that you understand X.
Dialogue: 0,0:55:45.49,0:55:50.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You don't get ostensive communication until all that apparatus is in place.
Dialogue: 0,0:55:50.06,0:55:54.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There aren't... It doesn't seem to me that there are...
Dialogue: 0,0:55:54.70,0:55:58.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It doesn't seem to me that there are partly ostensive forms of communication;
Dialogue: 0,0:55:58.28,0:56:02.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you've got to have the whole apparatus in place in the first place.
Dialogue: 0,0:56:02.36,0:56:08.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So you can build ever small sophisticated ways of reasoning about each others' minds.
Dialogue: 0,0:56:08.02,0:56:13.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But once they... It's only once they start to become recursive in quite a rich way that you actually get
Dialogue: 0,0:56:13.30,0:56:15.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,ostensive communication happening
Dialogue: 0,0:56:15.69,0:56:19.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[OK, so you have to have all of the selection for the mind-reading abilities coming from something else...]
Dialogue: 0,0:56:19.16,0:56:23.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yes, which would be some sort of Social Brain Hypothesis.]
Dialogue: 0,0:56:23.67,0:56:28.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[So, good. Well, it's a Machiavellian intelligence argument with no communication in their (...)]
Dialogue: 0,0:56:28.85,0:56:30.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Not in the first place.
Dialogue: 0,0:56:30.66,0:56:35.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[(...) does necessarily depend upon your idea of gradualism?]
Dialogue: 0,0:56:38.32,0:56:41.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Does what depend on my idea of gradualism?
Dialogue: 0,0:56:41.74,0:56:44.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[Does your argument really depend on gradualism?]
Dialogue: 0,0:56:44.70,0:56:46.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So...
Dialogue: 0,0:56:46.95,0:56:55.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[I only ask that because I think there are lots of situations (...) where the edifice
Dialogue: 0,0:56:55.70,0:56:59.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,doesn't fall on (...) rise and fall (...on...) gradualism.]
Dialogue: 0,0:56:59.76,0:57:04.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Oh, no, I'm not saying my argument rises or falls on gradualism But, you know, (...)
Dialogue: 0,0:57:09.69,0:57:14.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[I found that really interesting and convincing.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:14.06,0:57:17.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Although one thing that was left unstated, it was implicit,
Dialogue: 0,0:57:17.06,0:57:21.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was why you think that testing these things in human children is important?
Dialogue: 0,0:57:21.46,0:57:26.100,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I'm wondering, you know, are there particular ages that you think are, you know...
Dialogue: 0,0:57:26.100,0:57:30.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Do we have to push it back to the earliest point possible in order to
Dialogue: 0,0:57:30.57,0:57:35.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,provide the strongest test? Could you say some things about that?]
Dialogue: 0,0:57:35.00,0:57:37.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The general motivation of that sort of...\N
Dialogue: 0,0:57:37.12,0:57:39.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[... and what you think the research on the young kids tells us
Dialogue: 0,0:57:39.69,0:57:42.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with respect to the evolution of language]
Dialogue: 0,0:57:42.08,0:57:44.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It controls for other types of intelligence,
Dialogue: 0,0:57:44.53,0:57:47.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in particular physical intelligence, intelligence with the physical world.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:47.53,0:57:51.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, children at about... —(...) knows better than I exactly at what sort of ages— 
Dialogue: 0,0:57:51.89,0:57:56.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but around 2 or 3 years of age, adult chimpanzees and young children
Dialogue: 0,0:57:56.34,0:58:01.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have similar powers for understanding the physical world (...)
Dialogue: 0,0:58:01.28,0:58:06.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but they seem to have very different powers with the social world. So you're controlling for that
Dialogue: 0,0:58:06.62,0:58:11.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,other general type of intelligence, when you're comparing their social intelligence.
Dialogue: 0,0:58:11.52,0:58:16.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[And... could you say just a little bit more about that? Why is that important?]
Dialogue: 0,0:58:16.25,0:58:21.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Oh, well, because let's say we did this on adults, or with teenagers or whatever. Then somebody
Dialogue: 0,0:58:21.44,0:58:26.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,could turn around and say, Well they're just generally more intelligent. So it's not the fact that,
Dialogue: 0,0:58:26.09,0:58:28.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that there's any particularly social intelligence or
Dialogue: 0,0:58:28.52,0:58:31.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,particularly meta-psychological-community intelligence;
Dialogue: 0,0:58:31.52,0:58:35.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's just the general intelligence that's being applied to a particular problem at hand.
Dialogue: 0,0:58:35.51,0:58:43.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You can control for that by dealing with humans that have similar powers in those regards.
Dialogue: 0,0:58:49.95,0:58:50.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Go on
Dialogue: 0,0:58:51.16,0:58:57.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[The argument you're making for a shift in terms of associative, ostensive (...)
Dialogue: 0,0:58:57.18,0:59:02.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that characterize your argument with great apes and the reversal with humans,
Dialogue: 0,0:59:02.04,0:59:06.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and particularly the notion that this is not gradual transition,
Dialogue: 0,0:59:06.89,0:59:10.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(...you said that...) is not a gradual transition,
Dialogue: 0,0:59:10.72,0:59:13.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,implies there must be a set the conditions under which
Dialogue: 0,0:59:13.72,0:59:19.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that shift is being driven, that is unique to humans but it's not found in the great apes, otherwise
Dialogue: 0,0:59:19.02,0:59:22.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,presumably there would have been the same (...transition...) in terms of (...).
Dialogue: 0,0:59:22.98,0:59:24.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Do you have any sorts of thoughts on
Dialogue: 0,0:59:24.87,0:59:31.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what might be those conditions that would generate that kind of phase change?]
Dialogue: 0,0:59:32.34,0:59:36.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm generally sympathetic to some version of Social Brain Hypothesis.
Dialogue: 0,0:59:36.18,0:59:39.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Humans are an incredibly social species, they live in very large social groups...
Dialogue: 0,0:59:39.90,0:59:46.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That seems to select for a whole lot of forms of social intelligence.
Dialogue: 0,0:59:46.30,0:59:49.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, the Social Brain Hypothesis/Machiavellian Intelligence Hypothesis,
Dialogue: 0,0:59:49.83,0:59:51.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,whatever you want to call it,
Dialogue: 0,0:59:51.77,0:59:54.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,exists in various different forms, and people are still arguing on the nuances,
Dialogue: 0,0:59:54.32,0:59:57.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but it does seem to me that there is quite a lot of agreement that
Dialogue: 0,0:59:57.29,1:00:01.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the hyper sociality of humans has driven a particular social intelligence,
Dialogue: 0,1:00:01.70,1:00:05.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which gives you the meta-psychology that I've been talking about.
Dialogue: 0,1:00:05.99,1:00:10.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[Possibly the further development (...that could be made about your argument is to state the...)
Dialogue: 0,1:00:10.60,1:00:17.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,necessary condition with the argument (...) (...sufficient argument...)
Dialogue: 0,1:00:17.42,1:00:20.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in a sense that (... something well-argued would say...)
Dialogue: 0,1:00:20.56,1:00:25.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, why did we continue in this trajectory towards our present communicative capacities;
Dialogue: 0,1:00:25.17,1:00:33.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,why didn't we plateau at some (...more novel...) model of communicative ability (…) as well as driving further
Dialogue: 0,1:00:33.32,1:00:39.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,development of communication abilities (...) and not to be reaching a new plateau (...)
Dialogue: 0,1:00:39.85,1:00:45.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,something a little bit smarter than the great apes but well below modern humans...]
Dialogue: 0,1:00:45.17,1:00:49.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That's why this line here. The real continuity is in social intelligence.
Dialogue: 0,1:00:49.95,1:00:52.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And one thing that I say in the book is that,
Dialogue: 0,1:00:52.95,1:00:57.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in a way—this isn't strictly true, but in a way—the way to think about human communication
Dialogue: 0,1:00:57.72,1:01:03.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is not as a communication system, but as a form of social intelligence/social cognition.
Dialogue: 0,1:01:03.03,1:01:08.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I am trying to manipulate your mind right now, you are letting me, and—equally—you're trying
Dialogue: 0,1:01:08.51,1:01:12.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to read my mind –we're just helping each other, because we've got the set of tools that
Dialogue: 0,1:01:12.08,1:01:15.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,allow us to do it in a particularly rich way.
Dialogue: 0,1:01:15.08,1:01:17.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, it's not the case that there is a kind of simple form of communication
Dialogue: 0,1:01:17.99,1:01:22.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(...that I stop telling you, that once you get it, you stop there...).
Dialogue: 0,1:01:22.05,1:01:28.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This whole communication thing is on the cline of social intelligence,
Dialogue: 0,1:01:28.08,1:01:30.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's at one particular end.
Dialogue: 0,1:01:30.27,1:01:33.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[But it did stop in the apes. That is, presumably...]
Dialogue: 0,1:01:33.40,1:01:35.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,No, no. Because... Oh, sorry yes!
Dialogue: 0,1:01:35.94,1:01:40.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[Social intelligence... The argument is also, to whatever extent it was advantageous
Dialogue: 0,1:01:40.48,1:01:43.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for our hominid ancestors,
Dialogue: 0,1:01:43.48,1:01:49.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,presumably is advantageous for our almost identical chimpanzees ancestors
Dialogue: 0,1:01:49.42,1:01:52.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,close to the divergence of (...Hominoidea...)]
Dialogue: 0,1:01:52.45,1:01:56.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Would you buy any version of the Machiavellian Intelligence/Social Brain Hypothesis?
Dialogue: 0,1:01:56.47,1:02:01.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[I don't have any objections with the Machiavellian argument as long as
Dialogue: 0,1:02:01.02,1:02:03.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,one introduces what would be the conditions
Dialogue: 0,1:02:03.94,1:02:10.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,under which further development of Machiavellian intelligence has a payoff, rather than just
Dialogue: 0,1:02:10.10,1:02:12.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,presuming that somehow it just naturally develops that way.
Dialogue: 0,1:02:12.99,1:02:15.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because once that you start down that route,
Dialogue: 0,1:02:15.99,1:02:21.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you must follow it all the way to human kinds of communication.
Dialogue: 0,1:02:21.73,1:02:24.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It seems to me what's missing in the argument is,
Dialogue: 0,1:02:24.72,1:02:29.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what are those external conditions that would be driving the continued development of
Dialogue: 0,1:02:29.76,1:02:35.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Machiavellian intelligence. Because, certainly, it's hard to imagine (...it as...)
Dialogue: 0,1:02:35.61,1:02:43.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a self-generating process that couldn't stop until it got to the level of our human communication.]
Dialogue: 0,1:02:43.23,1:02:47.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[But if communication is socially beneficial...?]
Dialogue: 0,1:02:47.64,1:02:51.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[But what would be the conditions under which it is socially beneficial for
Dialogue: 0,1:02:51.68,1:02:56.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,hominid ancestors but not chimpanzee ancestors?
Dialogue: 0,1:02:56.32,1:02:59.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That question... I would reframe it as...
Dialogue: 0,1:02:59.85,1:03:05.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[The ability of the individual chimpanzees didn't also...
Dialogue: 0,1:03:08.89,1:03:12.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,... evolve (...) by accident?]
Dialogue: 0,1:03:14.08,1:03:18.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[(...mutations...) didn't actually have to occur, you know.]
Dialogue: 0,1:03:18.93,1:03:25.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[...unintelligible...]
Dialogue: 0,1:03:25.99,1:03:29.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, the answer in the Social Brain Hypothesis is that humans are more social because
Dialogue: 0,1:03:29.81,1:03:35.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we do live in larger groups. We do have, you know, a richer array of interactions...
Dialogue: 0,1:03:35.30,1:03:37.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[Why can't it be a happy accident?]
Dialogue: 0,1:03:37.99,1:03:40.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[If we look down at the development of human evolution that's true,
Dialogue: 0,1:03:40.70,1:03:43.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that's what we've come to at present, yes,
Dialogue: 0,1:03:43.70,1:03:49.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we live in larger groups, but certainly initially we weren't. That is, at the time of divergence of
Dialogue: 0,1:03:49.38,1:03:54.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,our hominid ancestors up in the Serengeti Plain or whatever, the size of the social groups
Dialogue: 0,1:03:54.67,1:03:58.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(....follows no difference from...) the size of the chimpanzees social groups.]
Dialogue: 0,1:03:58.96,1:04:02.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[So that's the thing that differ. So, you know, specialty in hominids is
Dialogue: 0,1:04:02.71,1:04:05.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,very very old and predates encephalization,
Dialogue: 0,1:04:05.71,1:04:09.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and our specialty is going to favor biparental care.
Dialogue: 0,1:04:09.42,1:04:12.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We're the only primate that has extensive biparental care
Dialogue: 0,1:04:12.42,1:04:19.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in large groups, so, you know, we can go on all day about things that might have lead to
Dialogue: 0,1:04:19.22,1:04:23.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,an upper ceiling that isn't there in apes that was there in hominids...]
Dialogue: 0,1:04:24.21,1:04:27.100,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[I don't disagree with (...),
Dialogue: 0,1:04:27.100,1:04:31.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,...but I just want to bring attention to the fact that, in this kind of arguments,
Dialogue: 0,1:04:31.62,1:04:35.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we also need to also be able to identify why was it that
Dialogue: 0,1:04:35.56,1:04:38.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,our particular lineage was driven in this direction
Dialogue: 0,1:04:38.61,1:04:44.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,whereas the ape lineage was not. What was different that was going on in our linage?]
Dialogue: 0,1:04:44.66,1:04:46.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[But to be honest, that's not Thom...]
Dialogue: 0,1:04:46.86,1:04:50.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[ I didn't want to say that, but (...)] (laughs)
Dialogue: 0,1:04:50.89,1:04:56.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[He's saying you get human communicative abilities once
Dialogue: 0,1:04:56.53,1:05:04.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you reach a threshold of social intelligence. Then the answer is not on him to explain how you reach
Dialogue: 0,1:05:04.06,1:05:09.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that threshold, because—as we agreed—there are many things that might have contributed to it]
Dialogue: 0,1:05:09.26,1:05:13.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[Well, obviously it might not be on Thom's.. It's up to him to decide whether
Dialogue: 0,1:05:13.86,1:05:17.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it is or not (...we're not going to decide...) for him.
Dialogue: 0,1:05:17.02,1:05:21.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But the answer is on somebody. Or at least to recognize that this is obviously a critical aspect of
Dialogue: 0,1:05:21.24,1:05:27.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the argument in the sense of (...) . At least to recognize that there needs to be some way of
Dialogue: 0,1:05:27.63,1:05:34.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,accounting for why did occur this linage and it did not in others where the specific kinds of
Dialogue: 0,1:05:34.84,1:05:41.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,mechanisms one is talking about presumably were also operating (...) social intelligence, presumably
Dialogue: 0,1:05:41.54,1:05:44.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was also beneficial in the context of chimpanzees (...)
Dialogue: 0,1:05:44.36,1:05:47.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,argument about social intelligence development (...)
Dialogue: 0,1:05:47.36,1:05:52.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we're looking at changes in primates in terms of social complexity and then response to (...)
Dialogue: 0,1:05:52.18,1:05:56.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(...that developing of...) social intelligence. Why does that particular trajectory terminate
Dialogue: 0,1:05:56.57,1:05:59.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,whereas ours doesn't? I'm not saying that you
Dialogue: 0,1:05:59.57,1:06:04.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have to have the answer (...) rather it seems to me that this part of the argument at some point needs
Dialogue: 0,1:06:04.53,1:06:09.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to be addressed (...). Of course, we might all come up with just-so stories about what might be
Dialogue: 0,1:06:09.88,1:06:14.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the reasons for them (....) carrying the debate as well.]
Dialogue: 0,1:06:14.93,1:06:17.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Can I take a different question?
Dialogue: 0,1:06:18.72,1:06:21.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[This is a comment, not a question]
Dialogue: 0,1:06:21.64,1:06:22.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OK
Dialogue: 0,1:06:22.65,1:06:28.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[It's about this issue of the ability of attribute communicative intent to an interlocutor's behavior
Dialogue: 0,1:06:28.02,1:06:33.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,even when you've never seen or heard that particular behavior before.
Dialogue: 0,1:06:33.65,1:06:38.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I'm sure you know about this –it's an experiment out of Tomasello's group that
Dialogue: 0,1:06:38.65,1:06:41.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,addresses this directly, where the task is to choose
Dialogue: 0,1:06:41.65,1:06:48.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the box that has a reward when the reward's been hidden and there are three boxes, visually different
Dialogue: 0,1:06:48.02,1:06:51.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from each other. So, there's two experimenters, one directly facing the subject,
Dialogue: 0,1:06:51.62,1:06:54.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the other standing is behind the subject,
Dialogue: 0,1:06:54.62,1:06:59.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who communicates something to the subject, maybe a child or an ape,
Dialogue: 0,1:06:59.34,1:07:01.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,either by pointing at the right box
Dialogue: 0,1:07:01.76,1:07:05.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,—and that, of course, both the apes and the children have seen lots of pointing—
Dialogue: 0,1:07:05.50,1:07:08.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or holding up a little replica of the box or putting on a marker on the box.
Dialogue: 0,1:07:08.81,1:07:11.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And those, presumably, the child has never seen before
Dialogue: 0,1:07:11.81,1:07:16.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and yet the children are much better at picking the correct box
Dialogue: 0,1:07:16.12,1:07:19.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,–much better than chance, whereas the apes don't do better than chance.
Dialogue: 0,1:07:19.76,1:07:23.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So that's the issue that (...Dan Bornstein...) was debating with you about (...)]
Dialogue: 0,1:07:24.41,1:07:26.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well...
Dialogue: 0,1:07:28.22,1:07:32.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So the thing with the object-choice task is... Yeah...
Dialogue: 0,1:07:37.29,1:07:41.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, it's clear that chimps struggle with points in the object-choice task;
Dialogue: 0,1:07:41.78,1:07:46.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you can point at one or the other one and they still choose at chance level. It's not clear
Dialogue: 0,1:07:46.60,1:07:49.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,whether that's a failure to recognize that somebody's communicating
Dialogue: 0,1:07:49.94,1:07:53.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the first place or some sort of...
Dialogue: 0,1:07:55.67,1:08:00.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Actually, I don't know what the alternative might look like. I kind of feel
Dialogue: 0,1:08:00.98,1:08:06.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like there's an alternative that is some sort of cultural explanation there...
Dialogue: 0,1:08:12.06,1:08:17.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm not sure what methods (….). It’s certainly the case that the results of the object-choice task
Dialogue: 0,1:08:17.85,1:08:22.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is consistent with what I'm saying, so in a way I'm looking for (...)
Dialogue: 0,1:08:22.55,1:08:28.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[You see, to me is very convincing. It seems to indicate that a child, even a 3-year-old child, will,
Dialogue: 0,1:08:28.75,1:08:32.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,whenever the adult is looking at the child or
Dialogue: 0,1:08:32.79,1:08:35.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in other way indicating that (...the child should pay attention...),
Dialogue: 0,1:08:35.79,1:08:40.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,no matter what the adult does—even if is something the kid has never seen before—
Dialogue: 0,1:08:40.42,1:08:44.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,whatever this is, it's got to be something that is intended to make me understand something.]
Dialogue: 0,1:08:44.94,1:08:48.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I certainly think that kids are communicating ostensively and
Dialogue: 0,1:08:48.89,1:08:53.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are understanding ostensive communication, which is what you're describing.
Dialogue: 0,1:08:53.16,1:08:56.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You won't find me (...arguing against that...). I mean, I'm agreeing that
Dialogue: 0,1:08:56.61,1:09:03.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what you're observing is entirely consistent with what I am arguing. I guess (...) a direct test of
Dialogue: 0,1:09:03.26,1:09:07.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the 4 things that I wanted to point, that I'm trying to address, and
Dialogue: 0,1:09:07.06,1:09:12.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that's why (...I haven't talked about it in the book but...) I do get a passing mentioning.
Dialogue: 0,1:09:19.45,1:09:28.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[I'm just wondering... You keep saying you're trying to modify our mental representations, (...) modify yours
Dialogue: 0,1:09:28.10,1:09:33.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm just wondering, how much of this (...whole dual thing...) is dependent on
Dialogue: 0,1:09:33.80,1:09:41.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this picture of communication that heavily emphasizes mental representation.
Dialogue: 0,1:09:41.59,1:09:45.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I missed the beginning of your talk so maybe you mentioned something about this,
Dialogue: 0,1:09:45.77,1:09:53.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but Wittgenstein once said something about how, you know, tools all serve to modify something,
Dialogue: 0,1:09:53.76,1:10:02.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so the chisel modifies the piece of wood and, you know... the hammer modifies the nail...
Dialogue: 0,1:10:02.06,1:10:08.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What does it take to modify (...) my idea of the (...length of the thing...)?
Dialogue: 0,1:10:08.26,1:10:13.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then Wittgenstein says, What is accomplished by this assimilation of expressions?
Dialogue: 0,1:10:13.34,1:10:20.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, I'm just wondering, what is done by... What is the consequence of viewing
Dialogue: 0,1:10:20.62,1:10:25.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,everything in terms of mental representations and intentions?
Dialogue: 0,1:10:25.91,1:10:35.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And one reason I'm thinking about this is, you may well be right that social communication and people...
Dialogue: 0,1:10:35.74,1:10:38.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That the point of continuity between earlier primates
Dialogue: 0,1:10:38.92,1:10:42.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and us is social communication.
Dialogue: 0,1:10:42.94,1:10:48.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But there have been a lot of patterns found by conversation analysts that
Dialogue: 0,1:10:48.19,1:10:56.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,don't emphasize mental representations. They sort of emphasize adjacency pairs, more of a "dance",
Dialogue: 0,1:10:56.64,1:11:03.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which may involve keeping track of things and maybe involves keeping track of intentions.
Dialogue: 0,1:11:05.16,1:11:10.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And, I guess... (how do you pronounce his name, Federico Rossano?)
Dialogue: 0,1:11:10.99,1:11:16.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Rossano has found that in a lot of primates there are
Dialogue: 0,1:11:16.89,1:11:20.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sort of similar timings, some similar stuff.
Dialogue: 0,1:11:20.36,1:11:24.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, maybe this (...conversationalist analysts stuff...) is just the
Dialogue: 0,1:11:24.68,1:11:29.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(...conventionalized content...) that you're kind of setting to the side,
Dialogue: 0,1:11:29.84,1:11:32.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but I'm just wondering –if you focused more
Dialogue: 0,1:11:32.84,1:11:38.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on that kind of pattern you come up with slightly different take on things...]
Dialogue: 0,1:11:38.76,1:11:48.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I don't see the two... I don't see (...as foxing...) on the conversational patterns and
Dialogue: 0,1:11:48.59,1:11:51.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,forms of the conventions, and focusing on
Dialogue: 0,1:11:51.34,1:11:55.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the mental representation as being in any way (...on a par...) (...).
Dialogue: 0,1:11:55.24,1:11:57.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So the former is a consequence of the latter.
Dialogue: 0,1:11:57.88,1:12:01.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[Wait, which is a consequence? Just spell it out]
Dialogue: 0,1:12:01.88,1:12:09.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We're engaged in the mental manipulation and mind-reading that I was talking about earlier and...
Dialogue: 0,1:12:11.04,1:12:14.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[And that leads to the conversational (...)?]
Dialogue: 0,1:12:14.29,1:12:17.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That with lead to—well, that and many other things that are involved:
Dialogue: 0,1:12:17.88,1:12:20.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the cultural attraction and so on and so forth—would lead to conversational patterns that
Dialogue: 0,1:12:20.89,1:12:24.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you do observe in conversational analysis and so on and so forth.
Dialogue: 0,1:12:24.52,1:12:26.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I don't see any reason to...
Dialogue: 0,1:12:26.13,1:12:31.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[But you said the apes have that patterns and don't have the other stuff, then that doesn't work.]
Dialogue: 0,1:12:31.55,1:12:38.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, the patterns that we might observe in ape communication and in human communication
Dialogue: 0,1:12:38.26,1:12:41.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are not themselves cognitive traits that could be subjected by biological evolution.
Dialogue: 0,1:12:41.72,1:12:45.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They're not patterns of...
Dialogue: 0,1:12:45.59,1:12:48.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[The ability to produce such patterns!]
Dialogue: 0,1:12:48.03,1:12:53.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Sure!... No, no, no! No individual produces patterns; these are patterns of exchange...
Dialogue: 0,1:12:53.60,1:12:59.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[Right, (...the ability to...) participate in such patterns. I just wonder if... Again, you seem to be saying that
Dialogue: 0,1:12:59.86,1:13:06.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the representations are driving everything, and I'm just wondering if it might be the other way round or
Dialogue: 0,1:13:06.13,1:13:11.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if they might be both be driving each other and if it's necessary always to...
Dialogue: 0,1:13:11.50,1:13:15.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm not one of these anti-representationalist people...
Dialogue: 0,1:13:15.72,1:13:19.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but I wonder if it's always necessary or even necessarily helpful.
Dialogue: 0,1:13:19.12,1:13:24.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I just think it might be fun to think of it in a different way just for (...kicks...) (laughs)]
Dialogue: 0,1:13:28.06,1:13:32.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I guess there's two points I want to make.
Dialogue: 0,1:13:32.06,1:13:35.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Let me draw on the conversation analysis and the patterns.
Dialogue: 0,1:13:35.11,1:13:39.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Let me draw on an analogy in a different area of language which I worked on, which is
Dialogue: 0,1:13:39.80,1:13:42.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the fact that you we combine things together...
Dialogue: 0,1:13:42.05,1:13:46.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They're very basic syntax, is taking things together in various ways.
Dialogue: 0,1:13:46.17,1:13:51.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Human language is full of this. And some people have started to uncover
Dialogue: 0,1:13:51.98,1:13:56.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,simple forms of this, in some non-human primate communication. So there's a
Dialogue: 0,1:13:56.74,1:14:01.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,natural Darwinian story to (...be told there...). So the last couple of years I've been collaborating with
Dialogue: 0,1:14:01.78,1:14:03.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,some microbiologists.
Dialogue: 0,1:14:03.53,1:14:06.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Cause I've been skeptical, for all the reasons I've highlighted here, that there's actually
Dialogue: 0,1:14:06.53,1:14:12.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a continuity there. So I got talking to some microbiologists who work on bacterial communication.
Dialogue: 0,1:14:12.06,1:14:19.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And we did an experiment basically replicating the playback experiments done with various monkey species.
Dialogue: 0,1:14:19.05,1:14:25.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We found the same results. We found combinatorial communication of the same sort you find in monkeys in bacteria.
Dialogue: 0,1:14:25.16,1:14:32.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, the point here is that you can see these patterns... This is a system, right?, a communication system,
Dialogue: 0,1:14:32.69,1:14:37.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like the patterns (...) is not a trait that is subjected to biological evolution (...) The capacity to engage in patterns,
Dialogue: 0,1:14:37.89,1:14:43.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the capacity to combine things together might be. But there's no reason why that isn't very phylogenetically deep
Dialogue: 0,1:14:43.29,1:14:49.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I don't see them as cognitively demanding. Bacteria stick symbols together. So do monkeys, so do humans.
Dialogue: 0,1:14:49.97,1:14:55.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That's not the thing to explain. And it seems to me quite possible the same thing is true of
Dialogue: 0,1:14:55.80,1:14:59.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the patterns that you're pointing to.
Dialogue: 0,1:14:59.76,1:15:02.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[Well, maybe true, I don't know]
Dialogue: 0,1:15:05.21,1:15:13.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[So... You started out by talking about what is the invention, alluded to, that you might get to]
Dialogue: 0,1:15:13.74,1:15:15.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(...) (...patterns of communication...)
Dialogue: 0,1:15:16.65,1:15:18.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(...)
Dialogue: 0,1:15:18.86,1:15:20.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[Sure, I got that (laughs).
Dialogue: 0,1:15:21.53,1:15:32.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The claim, (... further into the taxonomazing game....) people seem to like to talk about what's special
Dialogue: 0,1:15:32.68,1:15:42.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for language. And I was wondering what your position was there. Because most of the ingredients that you've given
Dialogue: 0,1:15:42.98,1:15:48.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(...where surely...) conventions are not special for language... it all depends on cultural conventions
Dialogue: 0,1:15:48.23,1:15:50.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(...that are not linguistic...) ]
Dialogue: 0,1:15:50.42,1:15:51.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yeah, sure.
Dialogue: 0,1:15:51.77,1:15:57.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[(...certainly ontogeny is not special for language...). Is there anything, in your view... –for instance,
Dialogue: 0,1:15:57.68,1:16:05.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,emergent thing that hasn't particularly... There's no linguistic trace that specifically (...have been selected...)?]
Dialogue: 0,1:16:05.42,1:16:11.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Right. So, it seems to me that the point number two, the (...join with...) cultural attraction and languages is to explain
Dialogue: 0,1:16:11.76,1:16:16.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,why we see these the sorts of properties, the structural properties, that we associate with languages. So,
Dialogue: 0,1:16:16.28,1:16:21.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people have long observed that languages have various (...differences...) in structural properties,
Dialogue: 0,1:16:21.56,1:16:25.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(...independent of...) the relations. And we need to explain why certain, you know,
Dialogue: 0,1:16:25.98,1:16:29.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,word orders are common while other ones are not.
Dialogue: 0,1:16:29.24,1:16:34.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And those explanations..., well, that's where cultural attraction come in, and the sorts of factors of attraction that
Dialogue: 0,1:16:34.48,1:16:40.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are going to be important are the ability to stick things together, the ability to engage in patterns, patterns of interactions and
Dialogue: 0,1:16:40.09,1:16:41.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so on and so forth. And various other things,
Dialogue: 0,1:16:41.80,1:16:47.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which might well be phylogenetic indeed, might well shared with other human behaviors and so on and so forth
Dialogue: 0,1:16:47.67,1:16:48.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[ or bacteria (...)]
Dialogue: 0,1:16:48.83,1:16:54.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Indeed. Each one is on a case by case basis, but I don't have any one that I want to hold up as, you know,
Dialogue: 0,1:16:54.13,1:16:58.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as this one is only working in language. I dont have any reasons to do that...
Dialogue: 0,1:16:58.06,1:17:02.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But that's not to say that there isn't one; there might be but I don't know what it is.
Dialogue: 0,1:17:02.06,1:17:09.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[So I guess what I'm getting at is—and I confess that don't like when people ask these kinds of questions—
Dialogue: 0,1:17:09.44,1:17:17.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what has there been selected for? (...) I mean, natural selection is selecting for a thing...
Dialogue: 0,1:17:18.73,1:17:22.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Is any of the things that (...being...) selected for specifically because of (...) ?]
Dialogue: 0,1:17:23.41,1:17:30.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Oh, I see . Maybe, maybe not. Once you've got ostensive communication and you've got conventions which are
Dialogue: 0,1:17:30.05,1:17:37.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,making it more expressively powerful –this is an extremely powerful tool, right? It allows us to do all sorts of things.
Dialogue: 0,1:17:37.00,1:17:41.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It seems quite plausible to me that you could have the natural selection for mechanisms that make the acquisition of
Dialogue: 0,1:17:41.96,1:17:47.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,those conventions and the use of those conventions much more fluent and easy than otherwise might be.
Dialogue: 0,1:17:47.54,1:17:50.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If there's such a thing, that is what we should be calling
Dialogue: 0,1:17:50.35,1:17:53.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,an LAD [Language Acquisition Device] or a UG [Universal Grammar] or whatever.
Dialogue: 0,1:17:53.35,1:17:57.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In fact (...I quote you...),you say much the same thing in the book.
Dialogue: 0,1:17:57.27,1:18:03.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Whether there is such thing of that sort... I actually dont know. That's why I said maybe maybe
Dialogue: 0,1:18:03.51,1:18:04.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[OK]
Dialogue: 0,1:18:07.57,1:18:15.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[I will try to keep this really brief because I'll take a lot of your time during the (...rest of your stay...).
Dialogue: 0,1:18:15.33,1:18:19.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, you already know that I disagree with you about a whole "how much do apes do".
Dialogue: 0,1:18:19.69,1:18:20.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yes.
Dialogue: 0,1:18:20.74,1:18:24.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I'd like, to kind of, just bang on about that for a second.]
Dialogue: 0,1:18:24.75,1:18:25.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OK
Dialogue: 0,1:18:25.54,1:18:32.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[Because I think that the example that you started up with, with—you know: "I'd like a chip please"—none of that
Dialogue: 0,1:18:32.14,1:18:40.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,would be capture in any of the (...published literature...) about apes, and I think that you're relaying somewhat heavily on,
Dialogue: 0,1:18:40.21,1:18:49.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you know, the body of work that manages to get published about primatology, and the meaning of primate signals.
Dialogue: 0,1:18:49.83,1:18:58.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I think that the onus there is really on primatologists to discuss and to really sort of open up our thinking about
Dialogue: 0,1:18:58.31,1:19:05.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,primate communication. But I'd say that the experiments that are done, and certainly the work that is published about
Dialogue: 0,1:19:05.68,1:19:11.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,certain communicative repertoires in primate systems, are heavily influenced by, you know, the kind of,
Dialogue: 0,1:19:11.87,1:19:16.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"Oh, what makes human language special?! Oh, let's look at primates and the (...) models and (...) models"]
Dialogue: 0,1:19:16.69,1:19:19.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yes, I agree, and I think its a mistake, yes.
Dialogue: 0,1:19:19.02,1:19:24.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[But, I'd say that, you know, certainly in ape gesture literature, 80% of the communication gets thrown out
Dialogue: 0,1:19:24.58,1:19:33.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because we don't have enough examples of X leads to Y to say anything about it. And so the vast majority of
Dialogue: 0,1:19:33.29,1:19:42.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,interactions and (...), and you know... Apes spend a huge amount of time, you know, doing this
Dialogue: 0,1:19:43.01,1:19:45.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(laughs)
Dialogue: 0,1:19:45.63,1:19:48.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,None of that is provable,]
Dialogue: 0,1:19:48.05,1:19:49.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Sure, I understand.
Dialogue: 0,1:19:49.70,1:19:53.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[None of that is objective and replicable... There's a lot of discussion about,
Dialogue: 0,1:19:53.97,1:20:00.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well... is it anecdote...? data...? I don't really know where I fall; I've written things about, you know,
Dialogue: 0,1:20:00.29,1:20:07.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[sarcastic tone:] Semantics of the Gesture Repertoire. I'm completely guilty of this, but I think that is very hard to
Dialogue: 0,1:20:07.67,1:20:14.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,make a claim where you say, "ape communications is this way" and "human communication is this way" when
Dialogue: 0,1:20:14.02,1:20:21.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this (...) the published claims about ape communication is being this way are very strongly influenced by exactly the same kind of
Dialogue: 0,1:20:21.84,1:20:27.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(...thing that...) sort of faults with linguistics and (...thinking of...) what makes human language special
Dialogue: 0,1:20:27.64,1:20:30.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that you criticized in the first half of your talk.]
Dialogue: 0,1:20:30.85,1:20:34.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So that's why there are question marks on these (laughs)
Dialogue: 0,1:20:34.90,1:20:39.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[I'd preferred it if you'd offered them as series of (...)](laughs)
Dialogue: 0,1:20:40.98,1:20:44.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(...)
Dialogue: 0,1:20:44.60,1:20:48.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[(...) I wanted to know what you thought in terms of the OI [ostensive inferential] model...
Dialogue: 0,1:20:48.87,1:20:51.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Can you have ostension without a code?]
Dialogue: 0,1:20:51.69,1:20:55.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yes, sure. Point... That chip gesture...
Dialogue: 0,1:20:55.47,1:21:01.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[No, I know, but I mean do you think could you have the cognitive capacities as a species
Dialogue: 0,1:21:01.21,1:21:06.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,without having either a very developed natural or conventional code system?]
Dialogue: 0,1:21:10.55,1:21:16.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yes, and you can see it in the natural world. We see it in kids. So ostensive communication
Dialogue: 0,1:21:16.88,1:21:20.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,precedes linguistic communication in development.
Dialogue: 0,1:21:20.22,1:21:32.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[Yeah, no, I agree with you, but I am not sure about this ordering of ...... informational intent and communicative intent
Dialogue: 0,1:21:32.90,1:21:40.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as communicative intent follows informative intent. I mean, if informative intent relies to some extent on
Dialogue: 0,1:21:40.64,1:21:45.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there being conventional or natural codes. Doesn't it or was I...?]
Dialogue: 0,1:21:45.02,1:21:46.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,No, I'm not following, sorry
Dialogue: 0,1:21:46.49,1:21:47.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[I'll argue about that later]
Dialogue: 0,1:21:47.80,1:21:49.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OK
Dialogue: 0,1:21:49.04,1:21:53.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[The difference between meaningful and symbolic, right?]
Dialogue: 0,1:21:53.94,1:21:55.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I've lost track now (laughs)
Dialogue: 0,1:21:56.79,1:22:00.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[The difference between meaningful and symbolic]
Dialogue: 0,1:22:00.92,1:22:07.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[We should take this up after (...) because we're now at the end of our discussion.
Dialogue: 0,1:22:07.22,1:22:09.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Thank you very much] (applause)