1 00:00:02,270 --> 00:00:04,040 GRAHAM MESSICK: If you were going to start a hall of fame 2 00:00:04,040 --> 00:00:06,750 for con men, Barry Minkow would have to be one of the 3 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:08,530 first inductees. 4 00:00:08,530 --> 00:00:11,950 He was one of the most famous stock swindlers of the 1980s, 5 00:00:11,950 --> 00:00:13,700 and certainly the youngest. 6 00:00:13,700 --> 00:00:18,300 Age 20, he was the boy wonder of Wall Street, CEO of a $300 7 00:00:18,300 --> 00:00:19,590 million company. 8 00:00:19,590 --> 00:00:24,230 At 22, he'd been convicted of 57 counts of fraud and was off 9 00:00:24,230 --> 00:00:25,900 to federal prison. 10 00:00:25,900 --> 00:00:30,540 Now at age 39, Barry Minkow is back in the spotlight, not for 11 00:00:30,540 --> 00:00:33,490 committing fraud, but for exposing it. 12 00:00:33,490 --> 00:00:37,080 He's seeking redemption as an evangelical minister and by 13 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:39,600 going undercover to help federal law enforcement 14 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:43,400 agencies crack a number of important cases, proving that 15 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:47,870 when it comes to con men, it takes one to know one. 16 00:00:47,870 --> 00:00:50,330 Everything you say today, you're going to tell me the 17 00:00:50,330 --> 00:00:52,000 whole truth, nothing but the truth, right? 18 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:52,500 BARRY MINKOW: Yeah. 19 00:00:52,500 --> 00:00:53,780 Brings back memories. 20 00:00:53,780 --> 00:00:55,160 GRAHAM MESSICK: As well it should. 21 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:59,560 19 years ago, Barry Minkow perpetrated a con so audacious 22 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:02,440 that it's still taught as a case study in business and 23 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:03,690 accounting schools. 24 00:01:03,690 --> 00:01:05,000 BARRY MINKOW: Call me when the market closes. 25 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:07,230 GRAHAM MESSICK: He founded ZZZZ Best Carpet Cleaning when 26 00:01:07,230 --> 00:01:11,470 he was just 16 years old, then franchised it into a chain, 27 00:01:11,470 --> 00:01:13,230 and finally took it public. 28 00:01:13,230 --> 00:01:15,380 BARRY MINKOW: We clean carpets with such care, I'll guarantee 29 00:01:15,380 --> 00:01:17,860 the work and our price in writing. 30 00:01:17,860 --> 00:01:20,770 GRAHAM MESSICK: On paper, he was worth $100 million. 31 00:01:20,770 --> 00:01:23,970 He drove a Ferrari, and even appeared on Oprah Winfrey, 32 00:01:23,970 --> 00:01:26,110 touting to himself and his stock. 33 00:01:26,110 --> 00:01:27,650 BARRY MINKOW: Think big, be big. 34 00:01:27,650 --> 00:01:28,420 OPRAH WINFREY: Really? 35 00:01:28,420 --> 00:01:29,290 BARRY MINKOW: End of story. 36 00:01:29,290 --> 00:01:30,710 I started with the best of intentions. 37 00:01:30,710 --> 00:01:31,950 Really, I can say that much. 38 00:01:31,950 --> 00:01:34,510 And when economic pressure reared its ugly head and I 39 00:01:34,510 --> 00:01:38,300 couldn't make payroll, I lied and stole and cheated. 40 00:01:38,300 --> 00:01:41,110 GRAHAM MESSICK: He borrowed money from the mob, cooked the 41 00:01:41,110 --> 00:01:44,480 books for accountants, and lied to investors about 10s of 42 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:47,660 millions of dollars in insurance contracts to restore 43 00:01:47,660 --> 00:01:50,220 buildings damaged by fire and water. 44 00:01:50,220 --> 00:01:52,900 BARRY MINKOW: We were claiming to be doing restoration jobs 45 00:01:52,900 --> 00:01:55,590 totaling in excess of $50 million. 46 00:01:55,590 --> 00:01:56,840 We weren't doing any. 47 00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:57,030 And so-- 48 00:01:57,030 --> 00:01:57,470 GRAHAM MESSICK: None? 49 00:01:57,470 --> 00:01:58,020 BARRY MINKOW: None. 50 00:01:58,020 --> 00:02:00,690 Well, I mean, I did, like, some toilet overflows and Mrs. 51 00:02:00,690 --> 00:02:01,320 Jones house. 52 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:04,590 But that's certainly didn't constitute $50 million. 53 00:02:04,590 --> 00:02:07,100 GRAHAM MESSICK: How did you manage to convince bankers, 54 00:02:07,100 --> 00:02:11,240 and lawyers and investors that this was on the up and up? 55 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:13,850 BARRY MINKOW: By getting an auditing firm and getting them 56 00:02:13,850 --> 00:02:17,960 the paperwork, and much to our shame, creating documents that 57 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:21,440 would support earnings and contracts, 22,000 documents. 58 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:22,700 GRAHAM MESSICK: All phony? 59 00:02:22,700 --> 00:02:25,510 BARRY MINKOW: Cutting and pasting, white out. 60 00:02:25,510 --> 00:02:27,300 GRAHAM MESSICK: When a major accounting firm finally 61 00:02:27,300 --> 00:02:30,790 demanded to see one of the restoration jobs, Minkow found 62 00:02:30,790 --> 00:02:34,130 a brand new building in Sacramento, paid off a guard, 63 00:02:34,130 --> 00:02:36,830 and brought the auditors in on a Saturday morning. 64 00:02:36,830 --> 00:02:39,660 BARRY MINKOW: We'd give the guard $50 to recognize us. 65 00:02:39,660 --> 00:02:40,890 We'd bring the auditors in. 66 00:02:40,890 --> 00:02:42,000 They'd say hi. 67 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:43,700 And we'd walk in, just say, yeah, we just did all this. 68 00:02:43,700 --> 00:02:45,370 We'd put signs about ZZZZ Best. 69 00:02:45,370 --> 00:02:47,060 It was like a Hollywood production. 70 00:02:47,060 --> 00:02:51,860 And we went to great lengths to fool and to deceive. 71 00:02:51,860 --> 00:02:53,640 GRAHAM MESSICK: But it worked. 72 00:02:53,640 --> 00:02:54,900 BARRY MINKOW: Temporarily. 73 00:02:54,900 --> 00:02:58,190 Most frauds, that's the way they are. 74 00:02:58,190 --> 00:03:00,230 I call it the second law of fraudo-dynamics. 75 00:03:00,230 --> 00:03:03,050 They go from order to disorder. 76 00:03:03,050 --> 00:03:04,630 They work, but it's not if you're going to 77 00:03:04,630 --> 00:03:06,000 get caught, but when. 78 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:08,110 GRAHAM MESSICK: When it did collapse, he left investors 79 00:03:08,110 --> 00:03:11,730 holding the bag for $26 million, wiping out life 80 00:03:11,730 --> 00:03:14,270 savings and ruining lives. 81 00:03:14,270 --> 00:03:17,470 He spent seven years and four months behind bars. 82 00:03:17,470 --> 00:03:20,480 And it was in the hole at Terminal Island in Los Angeles 83 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:22,170 that he had an epiphany. 84 00:03:22,170 --> 00:03:24,750 BARRY MINKOW: When I was 1988 in prison, Thanksgiving 85 00:03:24,750 --> 00:03:26,840 dinner, I'm sitting there with a bank robber. 86 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:30,200 His name's John Hensley, great guy, 50 some odd years old. 87 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:31,820 He's got spider web tattoos here. 88 00:03:31,820 --> 00:03:32,910 There's a toilet here. 89 00:03:32,910 --> 00:03:34,030 Here's the bunk. 90 00:03:34,030 --> 00:03:35,500 Here's Hensley. 91 00:03:35,500 --> 00:03:37,450 They feed me Thanksgiving dinner through 92 00:03:37,450 --> 00:03:39,350 a hole in the door. 93 00:03:39,350 --> 00:03:41,630 And they nuke it, the salad and everything. 94 00:03:41,630 --> 00:03:44,245 Because by the time it got to the hole from the kitchen it 95 00:03:44,245 --> 00:03:47,300 was cold, so they nuke it, salad and all, Jello and all. 96 00:03:47,300 --> 00:03:48,130 I look at Hensley. 97 00:03:48,130 --> 00:03:50,210 I look at the nuked Jello. 98 00:03:50,210 --> 00:03:51,330 I look at the toilet. 99 00:03:51,330 --> 00:03:52,570 I look at the door that don't open. 100 00:03:52,570 --> 00:03:55,030 And I'm thinking, you know, maybe it's me. 101 00:03:55,030 --> 00:03:56,520 Maybe there's something wrong with me. 102 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:59,080 Maybe when they go to all this trouble to put you in a place 103 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:02,910 like this, you better do some changing. 104 00:04:02,910 --> 00:04:04,120 GRAHAM MESSICK: And he did. 105 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:07,470 He earned masters degrees in religion and divinity, and now 106 00:04:07,470 --> 00:04:11,150 preaches to 1,400 parishioners at his Community Bible Church 107 00:04:11,150 --> 00:04:12,480 in San Diego. 108 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:14,910 But he doesn't go near the collection box. 109 00:04:14,910 --> 00:04:17,640 BARRY MINKOW: The better part of wisdom says alcoholics 110 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:19,160 shouldn't be bartenders. 111 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:21,260 I mean, I just don't want to be part of it. 112 00:04:21,260 --> 00:04:22,770 GRAHAM MESSICK: Do you talk about your sins? 113 00:04:22,770 --> 00:04:23,670 BARRY MINKOW: All the time. 114 00:04:23,670 --> 00:04:26,560 GRAHAM MESSICK: Evangelism has been known to be a 115 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:27,970 refuge for con men. 116 00:04:27,970 --> 00:04:28,930 BARRY MINKOW: Yeah. 117 00:04:28,930 --> 00:04:30,230 Our church, we we're not like that. 118 00:04:30,230 --> 00:04:32,620 We tell people who are visiting not to give. 119 00:04:32,620 --> 00:04:33,910 We're not a TV ministry. 120 00:04:33,910 --> 00:04:35,960 We don't say, if you don't send me money 121 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:36,840 I'm going to die. 122 00:04:36,840 --> 00:04:39,060 It's not that kind of ministry at all. 123 00:04:39,060 --> 00:04:41,030 There's this God who created you-- 124 00:04:41,030 --> 00:04:41,950 GRAHAM MESSICK: But not all of his 125 00:04:41,950 --> 00:04:43,730 preaching is done in church. 126 00:04:43,730 --> 00:04:47,020 He founded a company called the Fraud Discovery Institute, 127 00:04:47,020 --> 00:04:49,570 and lectures business students, law enforcement 128 00:04:49,570 --> 00:04:51,840 officers, and corporate executives on 129 00:04:51,840 --> 00:04:53,570 white collar crime. 130 00:04:53,570 --> 00:04:56,210 He actually began investigating white collar 131 00:04:56,210 --> 00:04:59,570 crime two years ago when a friend asked him to check out 132 00:04:59,570 --> 00:05:01,010 a questionable investment. 133 00:05:01,010 --> 00:05:01,740 BARRY MINKOW: I'd looked at the thing. 134 00:05:01,740 --> 00:05:03,900 It was volumes of information and websites. 135 00:05:03,900 --> 00:05:07,570 And I thought to myself, if I was a crook, what would I do 136 00:05:07,570 --> 00:05:08,260 to pull this off? 137 00:05:08,260 --> 00:05:10,320 And I thought, there's a unique approach. 138 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:12,450 GRAHAM MESSICK: He quickly discovered the company, Mx 139 00:05:12,450 --> 00:05:15,190 Factors, was operating without a business license and 140 00:05:15,190 --> 00:05:16,800 appeared to be a scam. 141 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:19,820 So he wrote up a report and sent it off to a federal 142 00:05:19,820 --> 00:05:22,090 postal inspector named Tim France. 143 00:05:22,090 --> 00:05:24,600 TIM FRANCE: He urgently asked me to look into it. 144 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:26,670 GRAHAM MESSICK: It turned out to be a big fraud. 145 00:05:26,670 --> 00:05:29,540 TIM FRANCE: Yes, $35 million in losses. 146 00:05:29,540 --> 00:05:31,480 GRAHAM MESSICK: And you wouldn't have known about this 147 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:33,960 unless Barry Minkow had brought it to you. 148 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:34,820 TIM FRANCE: That's absolutely right. 149 00:05:34,820 --> 00:05:36,000 I probably would not have known 150 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:37,380 about it until it collapsed. 151 00:05:37,380 --> 00:05:39,130 GRAHAM MESSICK: Since then, Minkow has helped law 152 00:05:39,130 --> 00:05:42,520 enforcement expose 11 suspected scams. 153 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:46,630 He's even gone undercover for the FBI wearing a wire. 154 00:05:46,630 --> 00:05:49,400 The biggest case involved Financial Advisory 155 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:52,920 Consultants, run by James Lewis, who's charged with 156 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:57,190 bilking investors out of $300 million in retirement money. 157 00:05:57,190 --> 00:05:58,950 BARRY MINKOW: I took one look at him and 158 00:05:58,950 --> 00:06:00,650 it was like a flashback. 159 00:06:00,650 --> 00:06:03,710 I could just look in his eyes and know he had 80 balls 160 00:06:03,710 --> 00:06:05,220 juggling in the air. 161 00:06:05,220 --> 00:06:06,720 Phone calls were starting to come in. 162 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:08,030 You have that look. 163 00:06:08,030 --> 00:06:09,690 And unless you've been a perpetrator about to be 164 00:06:09,690 --> 00:06:11,280 exposed, you don't know what that look is. 165 00:06:11,280 --> 00:06:13,000 And I could just tell in his eyes. 166 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:15,270 GRAHAM MESSICK: But despite all the help he's given to law 167 00:06:15,270 --> 00:06:18,370 enforcement, working with Minkow can be a frustrating 168 00:06:18,370 --> 00:06:19,520 experience. 169 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:22,110 TIM FRANCE: He is a bull in a China shop. 170 00:06:22,110 --> 00:06:27,060 He expects us federal investigators to immediately 171 00:06:27,060 --> 00:06:29,510 jump on it and have this thing shut down 172 00:06:29,510 --> 00:06:31,130 within a couple weeks. 173 00:06:31,130 --> 00:06:32,550 You just can't do that. 174 00:06:32,550 --> 00:06:34,665 First of all, the information that I'm getting 175 00:06:34,665 --> 00:06:36,530 is from Barry Minkow. 176 00:06:36,530 --> 00:06:39,350 So I have to re-verify 177 00:06:39,350 --> 00:06:42,440 everything he has done already. 178 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:43,630 GRAHAM MESSICK: You trust him. 179 00:06:43,630 --> 00:06:45,300 TIM FRANCE: Trust but verify. 180 00:06:45,300 --> 00:06:48,030 GRAHAM MESSICK: Minkow is much less interested in prosecuting 181 00:06:48,030 --> 00:06:50,390 frauds than he is in exposing them while 182 00:06:50,390 --> 00:06:52,090 they're still going on. 183 00:06:52,090 --> 00:06:55,320 He searches public records, employs private detectives, 184 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:59,080 and goes undercover to perform the kind of due diligence most 185 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:00,690 investors don't know how to do. 186 00:07:00,690 --> 00:07:02,900 BARRY MINKOW: The problem that I have the minute I get the 187 00:07:02,900 --> 00:07:05,700 call, Steve, is here's what happens. 188 00:07:05,700 --> 00:07:07,440 I get a probable cause. 189 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:08,400 And I'll listen in my mind. 190 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:09,980 The clock ticks. 191 00:07:09,980 --> 00:07:12,340 And I know that every day I don't do something, somebody's 192 00:07:12,340 --> 00:07:13,900 pouring money into this deal. 193 00:07:13,900 --> 00:07:16,050 And they're going to end up feeling like I made people 194 00:07:16,050 --> 00:07:17,750 feel back in the 1980s. 195 00:07:17,750 --> 00:07:19,630 And that clock is just ticking in my head. 196 00:07:19,630 --> 00:07:20,240 I got to just-- 197 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:21,450 I got to shut this down. 198 00:07:21,450 --> 00:07:21,970 I've got to-- 199 00:07:21,970 --> 00:07:23,480 GRAHAM MESSICK: Before anybody else puts more money in it. 200 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:25,170 BARRY MINKOW: And it's a race against time. 201 00:07:25,170 --> 00:07:27,350 GRAHAM MESSICK: While we were researching the story, he 202 00:07:27,350 --> 00:07:29,980 received a tip about this Texas couple, 203 00:07:29,980 --> 00:07:31,690 Debby and Eric Berry. 204 00:07:31,690 --> 00:07:35,180 They control two Dallas-based companies called Genesis 205 00:07:35,180 --> 00:07:39,030 Capital Management and Genesis Alliance, which bankroll a 206 00:07:39,030 --> 00:07:43,270 nonprofit organization called the Nehemiah Fund. 207 00:07:43,270 --> 00:07:47,490 It promises a 100% matching grant to churches willing to 208 00:07:47,490 --> 00:07:52,390 put a minimum of $500,000 into a bank account controlled by a 209 00:07:52,390 --> 00:07:54,230 representative of the Berrys. 210 00:07:54,230 --> 00:07:56,810 BARRY MINKOW: Genesis Capital, Genesis Alliance, and the 211 00:07:56,810 --> 00:07:58,900 Nehemiah Fund is what I believe a 212 00:07:58,900 --> 00:08:00,580 financial crime in progress. 213 00:08:00,580 --> 00:08:01,840 GRAHAM MESSICK: What makes you so convinced 214 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:03,180 it's a crime in progress? 215 00:08:03,180 --> 00:08:05,280 BARRY MINKOW: All the red flags, every one of them. 216 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:07,920 No accountability from the Berrys. 217 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:09,610 They just are one man shows. 218 00:08:09,610 --> 00:08:11,890 The untenable business model-- 219 00:08:11,890 --> 00:08:16,320 normally and regularly, people who are in the grant business 220 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:19,390 don't ask for your money first before they double it. 221 00:08:19,390 --> 00:08:21,850 GRAHAM MESSICK: He decided to go undercover and apply for a 222 00:08:21,850 --> 00:08:23,160 matching grant. 223 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:26,060 Wearing a hidden camera provided by 60 Minutes, which 224 00:08:26,060 --> 00:08:29,600 was concealed in a pair of glasses, and carrying a phony 225 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:33,400 bank statement prepared by the FBI, stating his church add an 226 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:36,950 excess of $2 million, he met the Berrys in a Dallas 227 00:08:36,950 --> 00:08:38,100 restaurant. 228 00:08:38,100 --> 00:08:40,990 One of the first things he asked was how much money was 229 00:08:40,990 --> 00:08:42,069 in the fund. 230 00:08:42,069 --> 00:08:43,694 BARRY MINKOW: What can I say without being misrepresenting 231 00:08:43,694 --> 00:08:45,005 to my elder board? 232 00:08:45,005 --> 00:08:46,960 DEBBY BERRY: Tens of millions. 233 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:48,770 GRAHAM MESSICK: The Berrys told him the money from the 234 00:08:48,770 --> 00:08:51,420 matching grants comes from a commercial venture they 235 00:08:51,420 --> 00:08:55,450 control called Genesis Capital Management, which they claim 236 00:08:55,450 --> 00:09:00,040 pays out a return of 300% on investments totaling more than 237 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:01,100 a billion dollars. 238 00:09:01,100 --> 00:09:05,012 BARRY MINKOW: So you guys invest ethanol plants, various 239 00:09:05,012 --> 00:09:08,924 apartment complexes, resort hotels? 240 00:09:08,924 --> 00:09:10,000 You're in all that stuff? 241 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:11,350 ERIC BERRY: Different stuff, yeah. 242 00:09:11,350 --> 00:09:12,580 BARRY MINKOW: Amazing. 243 00:09:12,580 --> 00:09:14,390 GRAHAM MESSICK: Minkow searched the public records, 244 00:09:14,390 --> 00:09:17,470 but was unable to turn up assets or holdings consistent 245 00:09:17,470 --> 00:09:19,140 with the Berry's claims. 246 00:09:19,140 --> 00:09:22,530 He did find outstanding tax liens against them totaling 247 00:09:22,530 --> 00:09:26,700 more than $240,000, and discovered that they were 248 00:09:26,700 --> 00:09:29,360 operating out of three small rooms in this 249 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:30,600 Dallas office park. 250 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:32,390 BARRY MINKOW: They give you three to one your money back 251 00:09:32,390 --> 00:09:34,490 if they're in a business with you commercially, one to one 252 00:09:34,490 --> 00:09:35,650 if you're a nonprofit? 253 00:09:35,650 --> 00:09:39,000 They claim to have $1.5 billion? 254 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:41,150 And yet they operate out of 900 square feet where they 255 00:09:41,150 --> 00:09:43,470 share a secretary with everybody else on the floor? 256 00:09:43,470 --> 00:09:44,520 I mean, I have a church and our 257 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:45,980 budget's like $1.8 million. 258 00:09:45,980 --> 00:09:48,150 It tastes like eight elders and 17 259 00:09:48,150 --> 00:09:50,020 employees to run $1.8 million. 260 00:09:50,020 --> 00:09:52,320 How much the more $1.5 billion. 261 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:55,120 It's just misrepresentation after misrepresentation. 262 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:57,420 GRAHAM MESSICK: To get an independent evaluation of the 263 00:09:57,420 --> 00:10:00,600 Berrys' operation, we went to Sean Delany, a former 264 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:03,760 Assistant Attorney General in New York state, and an expert 265 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:05,290 in charity fraud. 266 00:10:05,290 --> 00:10:08,380 We gave them Minkow's report, and transcripts of all the 267 00:10:08,380 --> 00:10:09,600 tape conversations. 268 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:11,510 SEAN DELANY: It has the indicia of a Ponzi scheme. 269 00:10:11,510 --> 00:10:13,960 And yes, it appears to be in its early stages. 270 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:15,630 GRAHAM MESSICK: What's your general impression of the work 271 00:10:15,630 --> 00:10:17,640 that Barry Minkow has done on this? 272 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:20,030 SEAN DELANY: For someone who does not have the tools of a 273 00:10:20,030 --> 00:10:23,880 law enforcement agency at his disposal, Mr. Minkow does 274 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:25,040 quite thorough work. 275 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:26,580 I was impressed with his report. 276 00:10:26,580 --> 00:10:29,360 GRAHAM MESSICK: He's familiar with the field of fraud. 277 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:30,290 SEAN DELANY: I've heard that he is. 278 00:10:30,290 --> 00:10:31,880 GRAHAM MESSICK: If you had money with the Berrys right 279 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:34,890 now, knowing what you know, would you call up the Berrys 280 00:10:34,890 --> 00:10:36,220 and say I want my money back? 281 00:10:36,220 --> 00:10:38,365 SEAN DELANY: I'd demand my money back in writing and I'd 282 00:10:38,365 --> 00:10:40,370 hire myself a good lawyer. 283 00:10:40,370 --> 00:10:41,420 GRAHAM MESSICK: The Berrys have not been 284 00:10:41,420 --> 00:10:42,980 charged with any crime. 285 00:10:42,980 --> 00:10:46,010 They declined our request for an interview, and for copies 286 00:10:46,010 --> 00:10:48,220 of their latest financial statements. 287 00:10:48,220 --> 00:10:51,830 But since Minkow issued his report, the FBI, the Texas 288 00:10:51,830 --> 00:10:54,750 Attorney General, and the Montana Auditor's Office have 289 00:10:54,750 --> 00:10:56,730 all begun investigations. 290 00:10:56,730 --> 00:10:59,700 Minkow sees uncovering fraud as an extension of his 291 00:10:59,700 --> 00:11:03,400 ministry, but wants everyone to know it's not easy. 292 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:05,780 BARRY MINKOW: One report is wrong, I'm done. 293 00:11:05,780 --> 00:11:09,340 When you're Barry Minkow and you say something's a fraud, 294 00:11:09,340 --> 00:11:12,870 get law enforcement involved, blow the whistle, and you're 295 00:11:12,870 --> 00:11:14,900 wrong, it's over, over. 296 00:11:14,900 --> 00:11:16,040 It's called one and done. 297 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:18,270 And that's why I'm so afraid to take on new stuff. 298 00:11:18,270 --> 00:11:21,270 Because I'm like, I've been right, like, 11 of 11 times. 299 00:11:21,270 --> 00:11:22,620 And it's like, nobody bats 1,000. 300 00:11:22,620 --> 00:11:24,580 And I'm going to be wrong and I'm not perfect. 301 00:11:24,580 --> 00:11:26,710 And I make mistakes and I don't want to take on cases. 302 00:11:26,710 --> 00:11:29,380 And then, the ticking clock, the investors investing, and 303 00:11:29,380 --> 00:11:30,800 you've got to move, and you've got this-- 304 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:31,780 but I can't be wrong. 305 00:11:31,780 --> 00:11:33,650 But this guy's going to lose money, and the-- 306 00:11:33,650 --> 00:11:34,780 [SIGHS] 307 00:11:34,780 --> 00:11:36,790 GRAHAM MESSICK: He's now helped authorities uncover far 308 00:11:36,790 --> 00:11:38,710 more fraud than he ever perpetrated. 309 00:11:38,710 --> 00:11:42,260 And as a result, Judge Dickran Tevrizian, who originally 310 00:11:42,260 --> 00:11:45,910 sentenced Minkow 25 years, released him from the terms of 311 00:11:45,910 --> 00:11:46,960 his probation. 312 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:48,850 DICKRAN TEVRIZIAN: He has done some good things. 313 00:11:48,850 --> 00:11:52,230 He's uncovered several hundreds of million dollars 314 00:11:52,230 --> 00:11:53,450 worth of frauds. 315 00:11:53,450 --> 00:11:55,430 And I give them credit for that. 316 00:11:55,430 --> 00:11:57,000 GRAHAM MESSICK: So you, I mean-- this is real. 317 00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:59,790 You've heard from federal authorities, federal agencies, 318 00:11:59,790 --> 00:12:02,560 that he has helped them in various investigations. 319 00:12:02,560 --> 00:12:04,520 DICKRAN TEVRIZIAN: Not only the federal agencies, local 320 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:08,600 agencies, but the insurance industry in covering the loss 321 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:10,730 of frauds that have been committed. 322 00:12:10,730 --> 00:12:13,110 Autographed copy of this book-- 323 00:12:13,110 --> 00:12:14,540 GRAHAM MESSICK: And Minkow has not lost his 324 00:12:14,540 --> 00:12:16,230 flair for self promotion. 325 00:12:16,230 --> 00:12:18,490 He's written a book called Cleaning Up. 326 00:12:18,490 --> 00:12:21,020 And his agent is negotiating with several production 327 00:12:21,020 --> 00:12:23,180 companies to film his life story. 328 00:12:23,180 --> 00:12:25,280 What do you want? 329 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:26,660 What are you looking for? 330 00:12:26,660 --> 00:12:28,560 BARRY MINKOW: I want everybody who's ever failed to know that 331 00:12:28,560 --> 00:12:30,260 they can come back from failure. 332 00:12:30,260 --> 00:12:33,410 You can take what you used to use for evil and manipulative 333 00:12:33,410 --> 00:12:36,140 reasons and to hurt people, and use those same talents and 334 00:12:36,140 --> 00:12:37,200 abilities to help them. 335 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:40,880 And I believe people can change. 336 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:43,600 GRAHAM MESSICK: One footnote, Genesis and Nehemiah are 337 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:45,620 common names used by many legitimate 338 00:12:45,620 --> 00:12:47,110 companies and charities. 339 00:12:47,110 --> 00:12:49,700 For more information on the enterprises operated and 340 00:12:49,700 --> 00:12:52,690 funded by the Berrys, as well as more of our interview with 341 00:12:52,690 --> 00:12:57,910 Barry Minkow, go to our website at 60minutes.com. 342 00:12:57,910 --> 00:13:01,380 [TICKING CLOCK] 343 00:13:01,380 --> 00:13:02,410 SPEAKER 1: 60 minutes. 344 00:13:02,410 --> 00:13:03,725 We're always on cbsnews.com.