0:00:02.270,0:00:04.040
GRAHAM MESSICK: If you were[br]going to start a hall of fame

0:00:04.040,0:00:06.750
for con men, Barry Minkow would[br]have to be one of the

0:00:07.640,0:00:08.530
first inductees.

0:00:08.530,0:00:11.950
He was one of the most famous[br]stock swindlers of the 1980s,

0:00:11.950,0:00:13.700
and certainly the youngest.

0:00:13.700,0:00:18.300
Age 20, he was the boy wonder of[br]Wall Street, CEO of a $300

0:00:18.300,0:00:19.590
million company.

0:00:19.590,0:00:24.230
At 22, he'd been convicted of 57[br]counts of fraud and was off

0:00:24.230,0:00:25.900
to federal prison.

0:00:25.900,0:00:30.540
Now at age 39, Barry Minkow is[br]back in the spotlight, not for

0:00:30.540,0:00:33.490
committing fraud, but[br]for exposing it.

0:00:33.490,0:00:37.080
He's seeking redemption as an[br]evangelical minister and by

0:00:37.080,0:00:39.600
going undercover to help[br]federal law enforcement

0:00:39.600,0:00:43.400
agencies crack a number of[br]important cases, proving that

0:00:43.400,0:00:47.870
when it comes to con men, it[br]takes one to know one.

0:00:47.870,0:00:50.330
Everything you say today, you're[br]going to tell me the

0:00:50.330,0:00:52.000
whole truth, nothing but[br]the truth, right?

0:00:52.000,0:00:52.500
BARRY MINKOW: Yeah.

0:00:52.500,0:00:53.780
Brings back memories.

0:00:53.780,0:00:55.160
GRAHAM MESSICK: As[br]well it should.

0:00:55.160,0:00:59.560
19 years ago, Barry Minkow[br]perpetrated a con so audacious

0:00:59.560,0:01:02.440
that it's still taught as a[br]case study in business and

0:01:02.440,0:01:03.690
accounting schools.

0:01:03.690,0:01:05.000
BARRY MINKOW: Call me when[br]the market closes.

0:01:05.000,0:01:07.230
GRAHAM MESSICK: He founded ZZZZ[br]Best Carpet Cleaning when

0:01:07.230,0:01:11.470
he was just 16 years old, then[br]franchised it into a chain,

0:01:11.470,0:01:13.230
and finally took it public.

0:01:13.230,0:01:15.380
BARRY MINKOW: We clean carpets[br]with such care, I'll guarantee

0:01:15.380,0:01:17.860
the work and our price[br]in writing.

0:01:17.860,0:01:20.770
GRAHAM MESSICK: On paper, he[br]was worth $100 million.

0:01:20.770,0:01:23.970
He drove a Ferrari, and even[br]appeared on Oprah Winfrey,

0:01:23.970,0:01:26.110
touting to himself[br]and his stock.

0:01:26.110,0:01:27.650
BARRY MINKOW: Think[br]big, be big.

0:01:27.650,0:01:28.420
OPRAH WINFREY: Really?

0:01:28.420,0:01:29.290
BARRY MINKOW: End of story.

0:01:29.290,0:01:30.710
I started with the best[br]of intentions.

0:01:30.710,0:01:31.950
Really, I can say that much.

0:01:31.950,0:01:34.510
And when economic pressure[br]reared its ugly head and I

0:01:34.510,0:01:38.300
couldn't make payroll, I lied[br]and stole and cheated.

0:01:38.300,0:01:41.110
GRAHAM MESSICK: He borrowed[br]money from the mob, cooked the

0:01:41.110,0:01:44.480
books for accountants, and lied[br]to investors about 10s of

0:01:44.480,0:01:47.660
millions of dollars in insurance[br]contracts to restore

0:01:47.660,0:01:50.220
buildings damaged by[br]fire and water.

0:01:50.220,0:01:52.900
BARRY MINKOW: We were claiming[br]to be doing restoration jobs

0:01:52.900,0:01:55.590
totaling in excess[br]of $50 million.

0:01:55.590,0:01:56.840
We weren't doing any.

0:01:56.840,0:01:57.030
And so--

0:01:57.030,0:01:57.470
GRAHAM MESSICK: None?

0:01:57.470,0:01:58.020
BARRY MINKOW: None.

0:01:58.020,0:02:00.690
Well, I mean, I did, like, some[br]toilet overflows and Mrs.

0:02:00.690,0:02:01.320
Jones house.

0:02:01.320,0:02:04.590
But that's certainly didn't[br]constitute $50 million.

0:02:04.590,0:02:07.100
GRAHAM MESSICK: How did you[br]manage to convince bankers,

0:02:07.100,0:02:11.240
and lawyers and investors that[br]this was on the up and up?

0:02:11.240,0:02:13.850
BARRY MINKOW: By getting an[br]auditing firm and getting them

0:02:13.850,0:02:17.960
the paperwork, and much to our[br]shame, creating documents that

0:02:17.960,0:02:21.440
would support earnings and[br]contracts, 22,000 documents.

0:02:21.440,0:02:22.700
GRAHAM MESSICK: All phony?

0:02:22.700,0:02:25.510
BARRY MINKOW: Cutting and[br]pasting, white out.

0:02:25.510,0:02:27.300
GRAHAM MESSICK: When a major[br]accounting firm finally

0:02:27.300,0:02:30.790
demanded to see one of the[br]restoration jobs, Minkow found

0:02:30.790,0:02:34.130
a brand new building in[br]Sacramento, paid off a guard,

0:02:34.130,0:02:36.830
and brought the auditors in[br]on a Saturday morning.

0:02:36.830,0:02:39.660
BARRY MINKOW: We'd give the[br]guard $50 to recognize us.

0:02:39.660,0:02:40.890
We'd bring the auditors in.

0:02:40.890,0:02:42.000
They'd say hi.

0:02:42.000,0:02:43.700
And we'd walk in, just say,[br]yeah, we just did all this.

0:02:43.700,0:02:45.370
We'd put signs about[br]ZZZZ Best.

0:02:45.370,0:02:47.060
It was like a Hollywood[br]production.

0:02:47.060,0:02:51.860
And we went to great lengths[br]to fool and to deceive.

0:02:51.860,0:02:53.640
GRAHAM MESSICK: But it worked.

0:02:53.640,0:02:54.900
BARRY MINKOW: Temporarily.

0:02:54.900,0:02:58.190
Most frauds, that's[br]the way they are.

0:02:58.190,0:03:00.230
I call it the second law[br]of fraudo-dynamics.

0:03:00.230,0:03:03.050
They go from order[br]to disorder.

0:03:03.050,0:03:04.630
They work, but it's not[br]if you're going to

0:03:04.630,0:03:06.000
get caught, but when.

0:03:06.000,0:03:08.110
GRAHAM MESSICK: When it did[br]collapse, he left investors

0:03:08.110,0:03:11.730
holding the bag for $26 million,[br]wiping out life

0:03:11.730,0:03:14.270
savings and ruining lives.

0:03:14.270,0:03:17.470
He spent seven years and four[br]months behind bars.

0:03:17.470,0:03:20.480
And it was in the hole at[br]Terminal Island in Los Angeles

0:03:20.480,0:03:22.170
that he had an epiphany.

0:03:22.170,0:03:24.750
BARRY MINKOW: When I was 1988[br]in prison, Thanksgiving

0:03:24.750,0:03:26.840
dinner, I'm sitting there[br]with a bank robber.

0:03:26.840,0:03:30.200
His name's John Hensley, great[br]guy, 50 some odd years old.

0:03:30.200,0:03:31.820
He's got spider web[br]tattoos here.

0:03:31.820,0:03:32.910
There's a toilet here.

0:03:32.910,0:03:34.030
Here's the bunk.

0:03:34.030,0:03:35.500
Here's Hensley.

0:03:35.500,0:03:37.450
They feed me Thanksgiving[br]dinner through

0:03:37.450,0:03:39.350
a hole in the door.

0:03:39.350,0:03:41.630
And they nuke it, the salad[br]and everything.

0:03:41.630,0:03:44.245
Because by the time it got to[br]the hole from the kitchen it

0:03:44.245,0:03:47.300
was cold, so they nuke it, salad[br]and all, Jello and all.

0:03:47.300,0:03:48.130
I look at Hensley.

0:03:48.130,0:03:50.210
I look at the nuked Jello.

0:03:50.210,0:03:51.330
I look at the toilet.

0:03:51.330,0:03:52.570
I look at the door[br]that don't open.

0:03:52.570,0:03:55.030
And I'm thinking, you[br]know, maybe it's me.

0:03:55.030,0:03:56.520
Maybe there's something[br]wrong with me.

0:03:56.520,0:03:59.080
Maybe when they go to all this[br]trouble to put you in a place

0:03:59.080,0:04:02.910
like this, you better[br]do some changing.

0:04:02.910,0:04:04.120
GRAHAM MESSICK: And he did.

0:04:04.120,0:04:07.470
He earned masters degrees in[br]religion and divinity, and now

0:04:07.470,0:04:11.150
preaches to 1,400 parishioners[br]at his Community Bible Church

0:04:11.150,0:04:12.480
in San Diego.

0:04:12.480,0:04:14.910
But he doesn't go near[br]the collection box.

0:04:14.910,0:04:17.640
BARRY MINKOW: The better part[br]of wisdom says alcoholics

0:04:17.640,0:04:19.160
shouldn't be bartenders.

0:04:19.160,0:04:21.260
I mean, I just don't want[br]to be part of it.

0:04:21.260,0:04:22.770
GRAHAM MESSICK: Do you[br]talk about your sins?

0:04:22.770,0:04:23.670
BARRY MINKOW: All the time.

0:04:23.670,0:04:26.560
GRAHAM MESSICK: Evangelism[br]has been known to be a

0:04:26.560,0:04:27.970
refuge for con men.

0:04:27.970,0:04:28.930
BARRY MINKOW: Yeah.

0:04:28.930,0:04:30.230
Our church, we we're[br]not like that.

0:04:30.230,0:04:32.620
We tell people who are[br]visiting not to give.

0:04:32.620,0:04:33.910
We're not a TV ministry.

0:04:33.910,0:04:35.960
We don't say, if you[br]don't send me money

0:04:35.960,0:04:36.840
I'm going to die.

0:04:36.840,0:04:39.060
It's not that kind of[br]ministry at all.

0:04:39.060,0:04:41.030
There's this God who[br]created you--

0:04:41.030,0:04:41.950
GRAHAM MESSICK: But[br]not all of his

0:04:41.950,0:04:43.730
preaching is done in church.

0:04:43.730,0:04:47.020
He founded a company called the[br]Fraud Discovery Institute,

0:04:47.020,0:04:49.570
and lectures business students,[br]law enforcement

0:04:49.570,0:04:51.840
officers, and corporate[br]executives on

0:04:51.840,0:04:53.570
white collar crime.

0:04:53.570,0:04:56.210
He actually began investigating[br]white collar

0:04:56.210,0:04:59.570
crime two years ago when a[br]friend asked him to check out

0:04:59.570,0:05:01.010
a questionable investment.

0:05:01.010,0:05:01.740
BARRY MINKOW: I'd looked[br]at the thing.

0:05:01.740,0:05:03.900
It was volumes of information[br]and websites.

0:05:03.900,0:05:07.570
And I thought to myself, if I[br]was a crook, what would I do

0:05:07.570,0:05:08.260
to pull this off?

0:05:08.260,0:05:10.320
And I thought, there's[br]a unique approach.

0:05:10.320,0:05:12.450
GRAHAM MESSICK: He quickly[br]discovered the company, Mx

0:05:12.450,0:05:15.190
Factors, was operating without[br]a business license and

0:05:15.190,0:05:16.800
appeared to be a scam.

0:05:16.800,0:05:19.820
So he wrote up a report and[br]sent it off to a federal

0:05:19.820,0:05:22.090
postal inspector named[br]Tim France.

0:05:22.090,0:05:24.600
TIM FRANCE: He urgently asked[br]me to look into it.

0:05:24.600,0:05:26.670
GRAHAM MESSICK: It turned[br]out to be a big fraud.

0:05:26.670,0:05:29.540
TIM FRANCE: Yes, $35[br]million in losses.

0:05:29.540,0:05:31.480
GRAHAM MESSICK: And you wouldn't[br]have known about this

0:05:31.480,0:05:33.960
unless Barry Minkow had[br]brought it to you.

0:05:33.960,0:05:34.820
TIM FRANCE: That's[br]absolutely right.

0:05:34.820,0:05:36.000
I probably would not have known

0:05:36.000,0:05:37.380
about it until it collapsed.

0:05:37.380,0:05:39.130
GRAHAM MESSICK: Since then,[br]Minkow has helped law

0:05:39.130,0:05:42.520
enforcement expose 11[br]suspected scams.

0:05:42.520,0:05:46.630
He's even gone undercover for[br]the FBI wearing a wire.

0:05:46.630,0:05:49.400
The biggest case involved[br]Financial Advisory

0:05:49.400,0:05:52.920
Consultants, run by James Lewis,[br]who's charged with

0:05:52.920,0:05:57.190
bilking investors out of $300[br]million in retirement money.

0:05:57.190,0:05:58.950
BARRY MINKOW: I took[br]one look at him and

0:05:58.950,0:06:00.650
it was like a flashback.

0:06:00.650,0:06:03.710
I could just look in his eyes[br]and know he had 80 balls

0:06:03.710,0:06:05.220
juggling in the air.

0:06:05.220,0:06:06.720
Phone calls were starting[br]to come in.

0:06:06.720,0:06:08.030
You have that look.

0:06:08.030,0:06:09.690
And unless you've been a[br]perpetrator about to be

0:06:09.690,0:06:11.280
exposed, you don't know[br]what that look is.

0:06:11.280,0:06:13.000
And I could just tell[br]in his eyes.

0:06:13.000,0:06:15.270
GRAHAM MESSICK: But despite all[br]the help he's given to law

0:06:15.270,0:06:18.370
enforcement, working with Minkow[br]can be a frustrating

0:06:18.370,0:06:19.520
experience.

0:06:19.520,0:06:22.110
TIM FRANCE: He is a bull[br]in a China shop.

0:06:22.110,0:06:27.060
He expects us federal[br]investigators to immediately

0:06:27.060,0:06:29.510
jump on it and have this[br]thing shut down

0:06:29.510,0:06:31.130
within a couple weeks.

0:06:31.130,0:06:32.550
You just can't do that.

0:06:32.550,0:06:34.665
First of all, the information[br]that I'm getting

0:06:34.665,0:06:36.530
is from Barry Minkow.

0:06:36.530,0:06:39.350
So I have to re-verify

0:06:39.350,0:06:42.440
everything he has done already.

0:06:42.440,0:06:43.630
GRAHAM MESSICK: You trust him.

0:06:43.630,0:06:45.300
TIM FRANCE: Trust but verify.

0:06:45.300,0:06:48.030
GRAHAM MESSICK: Minkow is much[br]less interested in prosecuting

0:06:48.030,0:06:50.390
frauds than he is in[br]exposing them while

0:06:50.390,0:06:52.090
they're still going on.

0:06:52.090,0:06:55.320
He searches public records,[br]employs private detectives,

0:06:55.320,0:06:59.080
and goes undercover to perform[br]the kind of due diligence most

0:06:59.080,0:07:00.690
investors don't know[br]how to do.

0:07:00.690,0:07:02.900
BARRY MINKOW: The problem that[br]I have the minute I get the

0:07:02.900,0:07:05.700
call, Steve, is here's[br]what happens.

0:07:05.700,0:07:07.440
I get a probable cause.

0:07:07.440,0:07:08.400
And I'll listen in my mind.

0:07:08.400,0:07:09.980
The clock ticks.

0:07:09.980,0:07:12.340
And I know that every day I[br]don't do something, somebody's

0:07:12.340,0:07:13.900
pouring money into this deal.

0:07:13.900,0:07:16.050
And they're going to end up[br]feeling like I made people

0:07:16.050,0:07:17.750
feel back in the 1980s.

0:07:17.750,0:07:19.630
And that clock is just[br]ticking in my head.

0:07:19.630,0:07:20.240
I got to just--

0:07:20.240,0:07:21.450
I got to shut this down.

0:07:21.450,0:07:21.970
I've got to--

0:07:21.970,0:07:23.480
GRAHAM MESSICK: Before anybody[br]else puts more money in it.

0:07:23.480,0:07:25.170
BARRY MINKOW: And it's[br]a race against time.

0:07:25.170,0:07:27.350
GRAHAM MESSICK: While we were[br]researching the story, he

0:07:27.350,0:07:29.980
received a tip about[br]this Texas couple,

0:07:29.980,0:07:31.690
Debby and Eric Berry.

0:07:31.690,0:07:35.180
They control two Dallas-based[br]companies called Genesis

0:07:35.180,0:07:39.030
Capital Management and Genesis[br]Alliance, which bankroll a

0:07:39.030,0:07:43.270
nonprofit organization called[br]the Nehemiah Fund.

0:07:43.270,0:07:47.490
It promises a 100% matching[br]grant to churches willing to

0:07:47.490,0:07:52.390
put a minimum of $500,000 into a[br]bank account controlled by a

0:07:52.390,0:07:54.230
representative of the Berrys.

0:07:54.230,0:07:56.810
BARRY MINKOW: Genesis Capital,[br]Genesis Alliance, and the

0:07:56.810,0:07:58.900
Nehemiah Fund is what[br]I believe a

0:07:58.900,0:08:00.580
financial crime in progress.

0:08:00.580,0:08:01.840
GRAHAM MESSICK: What makes[br]you so convinced

0:08:01.840,0:08:03.180
it's a crime in progress?

0:08:03.180,0:08:05.280
BARRY MINKOW: All the red flags,[br]every one of them.

0:08:05.280,0:08:07.920
No accountability[br]from the Berrys.

0:08:07.920,0:08:09.610
They just are one man shows.

0:08:09.610,0:08:11.890
The untenable business model--

0:08:11.890,0:08:16.320
normally and regularly, people[br]who are in the grant business

0:08:16.320,0:08:19.390
don't ask for your money first[br]before they double it.

0:08:19.390,0:08:21.850
GRAHAM MESSICK: He decided to go[br]undercover and apply for a

0:08:21.850,0:08:23.160
matching grant.

0:08:23.160,0:08:26.060
Wearing a hidden camera provided[br]by 60 Minutes, which

0:08:26.060,0:08:29.600
was concealed in a pair of[br]glasses, and carrying a phony

0:08:29.600,0:08:33.400
bank statement prepared by the[br]FBI, stating his church add an

0:08:33.400,0:08:36.950
excess of $2 million, he met[br]the Berrys in a Dallas

0:08:36.950,0:08:38.100
restaurant.

0:08:38.100,0:08:40.990
One of the first things he asked[br]was how much money was

0:08:40.990,0:08:42.069
in the fund.

0:08:42.069,0:08:43.694
BARRY MINKOW: What can I say[br]without being misrepresenting

0:08:43.694,0:08:45.005
to my elder board?

0:08:45.005,0:08:46.960
DEBBY BERRY: Tens of millions.

0:08:46.960,0:08:48.770
GRAHAM MESSICK: The Berrys told[br]him the money from the

0:08:48.770,0:08:51.420
matching grants comes from[br]a commercial venture they

0:08:51.420,0:08:55.450
control called Genesis Capital[br]Management, which they claim

0:08:55.450,0:09:00.040
pays out a return of 300% on[br]investments totaling more than

0:09:00.040,0:09:01.100
a billion dollars.

0:09:01.100,0:09:05.012
BARRY MINKOW: So you guys invest[br]ethanol plants, various

0:09:05.012,0:09:08.924
apartment complexes,[br]resort hotels?

0:09:08.924,0:09:10.000
You're in all that stuff?

0:09:10.000,0:09:11.350
ERIC BERRY: Different[br]stuff, yeah.

0:09:11.350,0:09:12.580
BARRY MINKOW: Amazing.

0:09:12.580,0:09:14.390
GRAHAM MESSICK: Minkow searched[br]the public records,

0:09:14.390,0:09:17.470
but was unable to turn up assets[br]or holdings consistent

0:09:17.470,0:09:19.140
with the Berry's claims.

0:09:19.140,0:09:22.530
He did find outstanding tax[br]liens against them totaling

0:09:22.530,0:09:26.700
more than $240,000, and[br]discovered that they were

0:09:26.700,0:09:29.360
operating out of three[br]small rooms in this

0:09:29.360,0:09:30.600
Dallas office park.

0:09:30.600,0:09:32.390
BARRY MINKOW: They give you[br]three to one your money back

0:09:32.390,0:09:34.490
if they're in a business with[br]you commercially, one to one

0:09:34.490,0:09:35.650
if you're a nonprofit?

0:09:35.650,0:09:39.000
They claim to have[br]$1.5 billion?

0:09:39.000,0:09:41.150
And yet they operate out of[br]900 square feet where they

0:09:41.150,0:09:43.470
share a secretary with everybody[br]else on the floor?

0:09:43.470,0:09:44.520
I mean, I have a church and our

0:09:44.520,0:09:45.980
budget's like $1.8 million.

0:09:45.980,0:09:48.150
It tastes like eight[br]elders and 17

0:09:48.150,0:09:50.020
employees to run $1.8 million.

0:09:50.020,0:09:52.320
How much the more[br]$1.5 billion.

0:09:52.320,0:09:55.120
It's just misrepresentation[br]after misrepresentation.

0:09:55.120,0:09:57.420
GRAHAM MESSICK: To get an[br]independent evaluation of the

0:09:57.420,0:10:00.600
Berrys' operation, we went[br]to Sean Delany, a former

0:10:00.600,0:10:03.760
Assistant Attorney General in[br]New York state, and an expert

0:10:03.760,0:10:05.290
in charity fraud.

0:10:05.290,0:10:08.380
We gave them Minkow's report,[br]and transcripts of all the

0:10:08.380,0:10:09.600
tape conversations.

0:10:09.600,0:10:11.510
SEAN DELANY: It has the indicia[br]of a Ponzi scheme.

0:10:11.510,0:10:13.960
And yes, it appears to be[br]in its early stages.

0:10:13.960,0:10:15.630
GRAHAM MESSICK: What's your[br]general impression of the work

0:10:15.630,0:10:17.640
that Barry Minkow has[br]done on this?

0:10:17.640,0:10:20.030
SEAN DELANY: For someone who[br]does not have the tools of a

0:10:20.030,0:10:23.880
law enforcement agency at his[br]disposal, Mr. Minkow does

0:10:23.880,0:10:25.040
quite thorough work.

0:10:25.040,0:10:26.580
I was impressed with[br]his report.

0:10:26.580,0:10:29.360
GRAHAM MESSICK: He's familiar[br]with the field of fraud.

0:10:29.360,0:10:30.290
SEAN DELANY: I've heard[br]that he is.

0:10:30.290,0:10:31.880
GRAHAM MESSICK: If you had money[br]with the Berrys right

0:10:31.880,0:10:34.890
now, knowing what you know,[br]would you call up the Berrys

0:10:34.890,0:10:36.220
and say I want my money back?

0:10:36.220,0:10:38.365
SEAN DELANY: I'd demand my money[br]back in writing and I'd

0:10:38.365,0:10:40.370
hire myself a good lawyer.

0:10:40.370,0:10:41.420
GRAHAM MESSICK: The Berrys[br]have not been

0:10:41.420,0:10:42.980
charged with any crime.

0:10:42.980,0:10:46.010
They declined our request for[br]an interview, and for copies

0:10:46.010,0:10:48.220
of their latest financial[br]statements.

0:10:48.220,0:10:51.830
But since Minkow issued his[br]report, the FBI, the Texas

0:10:51.830,0:10:54.750
Attorney General, and the[br]Montana Auditor's Office have

0:10:54.750,0:10:56.730
all begun investigations.

0:10:56.730,0:10:59.700
Minkow sees uncovering fraud[br]as an extension of his

0:10:59.700,0:11:03.400
ministry, but wants everyone[br]to know it's not easy.

0:11:03.400,0:11:05.780
BARRY MINKOW: One report[br]is wrong, I'm done.

0:11:05.780,0:11:09.340
When you're Barry Minkow and you[br]say something's a fraud,

0:11:09.340,0:11:12.870
get law enforcement involved,[br]blow the whistle, and you're

0:11:12.870,0:11:14.900
wrong, it's over, over.

0:11:14.900,0:11:16.040
It's called one and done.

0:11:16.040,0:11:18.270
And that's why I'm so afraid[br]to take on new stuff.

0:11:18.270,0:11:21.270
Because I'm like, I've been[br]right, like, 11 of 11 times.

0:11:21.270,0:11:22.620
And it's like, nobody[br]bats 1,000.

0:11:22.620,0:11:24.580
And I'm going to be wrong[br]and I'm not perfect.

0:11:24.580,0:11:26.710
And I make mistakes and I don't[br]want to take on cases.

0:11:26.710,0:11:29.380
And then, the ticking clock, the[br]investors investing, and

0:11:29.380,0:11:30.800
you've got to move, and[br]you've got this--

0:11:30.800,0:11:31.780
but I can't be wrong.

0:11:31.780,0:11:33.650
But this guy's going to[br]lose money, and the--

0:11:33.650,0:11:34.780
[SIGHS]

0:11:34.780,0:11:36.790
GRAHAM MESSICK: He's now helped[br]authorities uncover far

0:11:36.790,0:11:38.710
more fraud than he[br]ever perpetrated.

0:11:38.710,0:11:42.260
And as a result, Judge Dickran[br]Tevrizian, who originally

0:11:42.260,0:11:45.910
sentenced Minkow 25 years,[br]released him from the terms of

0:11:45.910,0:11:46.960
his probation.

0:11:46.960,0:11:48.850
DICKRAN TEVRIZIAN: He has[br]done some good things.

0:11:48.850,0:11:52.230
He's uncovered several hundreds[br]of million dollars

0:11:52.230,0:11:53.450
worth of frauds.

0:11:53.450,0:11:55.430
And I give them credit[br]for that.

0:11:55.430,0:11:57.000
GRAHAM MESSICK: So you,[br]I mean-- this is real.

0:11:57.000,0:11:59.790
You've heard from federal[br]authorities, federal agencies,

0:11:59.790,0:12:02.560
that he has helped them in[br]various investigations.

0:12:02.560,0:12:04.520
DICKRAN TEVRIZIAN: Not only the[br]federal agencies, local

0:12:04.520,0:12:08.600
agencies, but the insurance[br]industry in covering the loss

0:12:08.600,0:12:10.730
of frauds that have[br]been committed.

0:12:10.730,0:12:13.110
Autographed copy[br]of this book--

0:12:13.110,0:12:14.540
GRAHAM MESSICK: And Minkow[br]has not lost his

0:12:14.540,0:12:16.230
flair for self promotion.

0:12:16.230,0:12:18.490
He's written a book called[br]Cleaning Up.

0:12:18.490,0:12:21.020
And his agent is negotiating[br]with several production

0:12:21.020,0:12:23.180
companies to film[br]his life story.

0:12:23.180,0:12:25.280
What do you want?

0:12:25.280,0:12:26.660
What are you looking for?

0:12:26.660,0:12:28.560
BARRY MINKOW: I want everybody[br]who's ever failed to know that

0:12:28.560,0:12:30.260
they can come back[br]from failure.

0:12:30.260,0:12:33.410
You can take what you used to[br]use for evil and manipulative

0:12:33.410,0:12:36.140
reasons and to hurt people, and[br]use those same talents and

0:12:36.140,0:12:37.200
abilities to help them.

0:12:37.200,0:12:40.880
And I believe people[br]can change.

0:12:40.880,0:12:43.600
GRAHAM MESSICK: One footnote,[br]Genesis and Nehemiah are

0:12:43.600,0:12:45.620
common names used by[br]many legitimate

0:12:45.620,0:12:47.110
companies and charities.

0:12:47.110,0:12:49.700
For more information on the[br]enterprises operated and

0:12:49.700,0:12:52.690
funded by the Berrys, as well as[br]more of our interview with

0:12:52.690,0:12:57.910
Barry Minkow, go to our website[br]at 60minutes.com.

0:12:57.910,0:13:01.380
[TICKING CLOCK]

0:13:01.380,0:13:02.410
SPEAKER 1: 60 minutes.

0:13:02.410,0:13:03.725
We're always on cbsnews.com.