WEBVTT
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prerol music
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Herald: OK, then welcome come back
everyone. With these void spaces of the
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Internet into which we've all been forced
to migrate. This is our last talk for
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today: "How to solve conflict in a
community of equals" by Merlijn. We'll
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talk about specifically how to solve
conflict in a community in which there is
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no leader based on his own experiences from
hacker camps and the hackerspace in Gent
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in Belgium. So without further I do. Merlijn
the stream is yours and start the talk.
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Merlijn Sebrechts: Thanks for the
introduction and thanks for having me here
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to share my experience, so to give a
little bit of background about why I'm
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doing this talk. About seven or eight
years ago, I came into hackerspace Gent.
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And at that time it was still flourishing.
But in 2014, the hackerspace imploded
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because of internal conflict. And this is
something that seems to happen a lot with
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hackerspaces and with other organizations
which are less structured, don't have
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clear leadership or a clear hierarchy. But
in 2014, one of the original founders of
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the hackerspace started the idea to
actually create workshops around finding a
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system to fix our community. I was very
interested in that initiative. So I joined
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the so I joined the workshops and together
with the other people from the
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hackerspace, we started building a system
that basically got the best out of people,
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but that was still very close to anarchy,
very a very chaotic system. This is my
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cat, Simba. He will be also here for the
talk, probably. And in throughout the year
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2014, we started writing down how the
system would work. First very informally,
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and in 2015 I decided to become a board
member of hackerspace Gent with the
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explicit goal to implement this system.
And the first thing I did was basically
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change the role of board members into
removing any of their leadership
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responsibilities, but keeping the goal of
maintaining the core infrastructure of the
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hackerspace and acting as a counselor in
order to fix conflict. And it's this
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second role that I will talk about in this
in this talk. Throughout the following
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years, we kept on hacking the system,
hacking our own hackerspace, and finally
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everything we wrote down, we bundled it
into the "hackerspace blueprint", which is
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basically a small booklet describing how
to run a hackerspace using doocracy. But
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it's written very generically so that it
can also be used by other organizations
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which want to know more about how to
actually run a doocracy, how to run an
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organization where nobody is actually
leading the organization. In 2019
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throughout the previous years, that
hackerspace kept becoming better and
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better and the environment and the
atmosphere and the hackerspace kept
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becoming better. But in 2019 we had this
real point of like this is the point at
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which the space is running itself as a
board. We don't need to actually intervene
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anymore. The only thing we need to do is
make sure the bills are paid and make sure
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our Internet still works. But the
doocracy worked. And so I started I
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organized a bunch of talks and and
discussions all on our experience with
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building this community. And time and time
again, I got the exact same question, how
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do you how do you actually solve
interpersonal conflict. And. So, as I
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said, "The Hackerspace BLUEPRINT". It only
talks about how to build this community of
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equals. It doesn't actually talk about how
to solve conflict in this community. The
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only thing that's described in "The
Hackerspace BLUEPRINT" is to use the
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private talk pattern, but it's not
actually explained by the private talk
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pattern is. So in this talk, I will
explain what a private talk pattern is and
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and how to use it to solve conflict. Solve
conflict without having to use authority,
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without having to use explicit leadership
or forcing people to fall in line. So the
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private talk pattern, we didn't invent it.
This is an old hackerspace pattern. Which
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is something that a lot of people, a lot
of different hackerspaces and notice that
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they were using the exact same method in
order to solve conflict and in their
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hackerspace. And so it became like a
design and design pattern for
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hackerspaces. This is a good way to solve
conflict. And so it works in two stages.
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The first stage is that when there is a
conflict, you first talk to the involved
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parties in private. You listen to them,
you let them know how the group feels
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about their behavior and you find you
trying to find the root cause of the
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actual conflict that's going on. The
second part is that you done moderate a
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discussion between the different parties
involved in the conflict. The goal of this
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discussion is to help these parties
understand each other and to discuss and
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write down concrete solutions. Now, I
could end my talk here, but I don't think
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it would be very useful because there's
actually a lot of beneath to using this
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pattern. Well. And so I'm going to get
more information about each stage and
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about the kind of mindset that you need in
order to use this pattern. So the first
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question is, obviously, who should do
this, who should organize these talks?
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Well, you you should do this because
you're the person listening to this talk.
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You're clearly interested in how to solve
this conflict. And so you're probably a
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very good person to actually organize
this. There is no formal authority needed
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because this pattern is about offering
your help, you are not forcing the
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conflict to be solved. You are not forcing
people to solve conflict. You are going to
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people and you're saying, hey, look, it's
clear that there is some conflict here and
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this conflict is an issue to everyone
involved. So can I help you solve this
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conflict? And when you open your help,
most people actually accept it without
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questioning it. However, it's very
important that the person who does this,
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they need to be seen as someone neutral to
both parties. This is this becomes an
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issue. For example, if you've already
chosen sides in the conflict, then the
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other party will not see you as a
trustworthy, a neutral person. This can
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also be an issue if you're like very good
friends with one of the parties of the
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conflict. Then again the other party will
not see you as neutral. The second thing
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is, is that you have to be prepared to
listen, everyone joins every conversation
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with a whole bunch of preconceptions,
especially when a conversation is about
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conflict. Everybody has an idea in their
head about what the issue is of the
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conflict and how it should be solved.
However, a lot of times those issues tend
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to those preconceptions, those preexisting
ideas tend to be wrong. And when you
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actually listen to people, you can
actually figure out what the root cause is
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and you might be surprised. And it's
hurting is that it's very important to
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stay authentic because the people involved
need to trust you. And the only way to get
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them to trust you is to show them that
you're authentic and that you are
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genuinely willing to find a solution that
benefits both parties. Then the next thing
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you need is you need the right mindset and
the first part of the right mindset is
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that conflict needs to be solved. As
humans, we have this tendency to, when we
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see conflict, to just try to ignore it and
hope that it goes away by itself or most
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reasonable humans. This is their first
initial response. However, by ignoring
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conflict, you actually allow it to grow.
And when it grows, it becomes more and
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more difficult to actually solve it
because more and more people get involved
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and it becomes harder and harder to find
the actual root cause of the problem. So
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you need to solve it and you need to solve
it as early as possible. It's much better
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to to solve this conflict, to intervene
too early than too late, because given
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that this is a process that is beneficial
to both sides, there is not really a
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downside to intervening to early. You're
not forcing anybody to do anything, you
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just want to hear them out, you just you
just want to know more about the conflict.
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Then the second thing is that the only
people who can stop the conflict are those
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involved. I said that the first response
is to ignore conflict. Well, the first
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response is to ignore conflict when you
were interacting with the people who are
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involved with the conflict. And then when
you get to people who are not involved
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with the conflict, you start talking about
it, then you start discussing it and and
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start discussing what might be done to
actually solve the issue. And most of the
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times, these discussions happen without
the people who are involved in the
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conflict or without the people that other
people are having issues of it. And this
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will almost certainly fail, these
attempts. Talking to third parties has has
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very little value. You can do it in order
to get some ideas, but you always need to
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include the people involved in the
conflict in these discussions or your
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attempts will fail. Then the third mindset
point is that the contributions of a
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single individual or a few individuals in
your organization are never worked having
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that conflict. A lot of times and people
in their head, they start to make a
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balance of like, yes, this person is
creating conflict in our organization, but
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this person also contributes a lot to our
organization so that in our heads, that
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gives them some kind of right to make
conflict, but they are never worth it. You
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do not owe it to them to allow them to
create conflict. If you are afraid that by
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talking to them about a conflict, they
will lower their contributions, then you
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should know that you are trading short
term gains by compromising long term
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viability. In the short term, they might
keep contributing. But in the long term,
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this will poison your community and your
community will not be long term viable,
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given that this is the track for hackers
against climate change. Climate change,
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for example, is an issue that requires
long term solutions and that requires
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communities who keep putting pressure on
everyone over the long term. And so. Or in
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terms of conflict, you should always
optimize for long term viability, not for
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short term gains. And the thing is that
solving the conflict even becomes easier
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when these people are actually really
contributing a lot to your organization,
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because you can start your discussion by
with saying we really value your
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contributions and we want to keep you
here. And that's why we want to solve this
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conflict. You're not a bad person. You're
clearly not a bad person. There's just
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this conflict that needs to be solved. The
second part of the right mindset is that
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complex needs to be solved and you need to
see solved as like solving a puzzle or
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solving a math equation. You can't force
people to stop conflict. You need to
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figure out how the pieces are not
connecting to each other. And you need to
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figure out how you can connect the pieces
in a way that a puzzle works. As an
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example, punishing people will get you
nowhere, even though it is like an innate
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response that we have when, when when
conflict arises. We want to see people
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punished, even though this this doesn't
actually improve the situation to punish
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people. And when you dig deeper into the
conflict, you see that that's most
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conflict is created by by bad
communication, by cultural differences and
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by differences in expectation, not by
people being bad people. And so there's
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actually no reason to punish anyone when
you're trying to solve a conflict. So
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every time you want to do a certain
measure like banning people from joining
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your community space for a while, you
always need to ask yourself, how does this
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improve the situation. Temporarily banning
people can be very useful. It can be
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useful to de-escalate conflict. It can be
useful to to to make sure that stuff
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doesn't blow up before it's at rest. But you
should always do it in order to solve
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something, in order to get a certain
result, not in order to punish people for
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what they have done. The whole point of
this is that when conflict is solved is
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actually solved, everybody involved should
win. Nobody should feel like they are the
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looser because almost always people do
not actually want conflict and people do
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not actually benefit from conflict. The
third thing about having the right
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mindset is, that you need to get into
these kind of discussions and these kind
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of talks with people with the mindest,
that most people are good.
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Hanlon's razor also says:
"Never attribute to malice that
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which can be adequately explained by
incompetence." It's a very complicated way
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to say that if you have two possible
explanations for some of these behavior
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and one of those explanations is this
person is trying to do bad things. And the
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second explanation is this person is
incredibly incompetent, then probably the
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explanation that involves incompetence
will be the right explanation, because
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most people are good. So most of the times
when you need to choose between these two
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explanations, choosing the incompetence
one is the right one. And so when you are
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in talks with people always in the back of
your head, think about where can I find
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the incompetence? What is the incompetence
that that created this issue? And so I've
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talked about cultural differences. For
example, not being aware of cultural
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differences is an incompetence. Not having
the right communication skills is an
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incompetence. If you try to search for the
incompetence, most of the time, you will
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get to the root cause of the conflict. So
the first step in the private talk pattern
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is the private talks, the individual
talks, the goal of the private talks are
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first to let the person vent. Because in
the end, we want the two in both parties
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to talk to each other. But that's not
possible if there are too many emotions.
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So these individual talks are in order to
let these emotions out and make sure that
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these people are hurt. When they are hurt,
when they vent these emotions to you and
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they have the feeling that they are heard
by you, then these emotions will be become
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smaller. And then the next talks, they
will be able to have more rational and
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less emotional and less explosive
conversations. The second goal of these
00:19:18.760 --> 00:19:23.840
individual talks is to build trust and
understanding. And this has to be both
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ways. You have to be able to trust them.
And they have to be able to trust you. And
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this understanding is very important.
First of all, you need to understand their
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point of view. This doesn't need to be on
a level of like I would do the exact same
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thing if I was in your place. But you need
to understand why they're doing it. And
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then second of all, they also need to have
some kind of understanding of what the
00:19:55.950 --> 00:20:01.369
problem is from the other side, like like
as outsiders. How do you look at this
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problem? Then the last step of these
individual talks is to find the root
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cause, find the root cause of the
conflict. So, a lot of times and I've seen
00:20:14.429 --> 00:20:21.899
this happen a lot in hackerspaces, a lot
of times. When you look at the surface of
00:20:21.899 --> 00:20:28.180
the conflict, it seems to be that that
that it's about certain behavior like this
00:20:28.180 --> 00:20:37.879
person said. This person was very
dismissive of my work, for example. But
00:20:37.879 --> 00:20:44.669
then, when you dig deeper, you find out
that there are actually other problems
00:20:44.669 --> 00:20:50.960
which caused this and a lot of the times
some of the root causes that these people
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don't actually trust each other. One of
the ways to find this out is to to ask a
00:20:58.990 --> 00:21:09.970
person. So say the other person said
something that hurt you? If somebody else
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would say the exact same thing, if a
friend of you would say the exact same
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thing, how would you interpret it then?
Would you interpret it differently? And if
00:21:18.650 --> 00:21:22.879
they would interpret it differently, then,
you know, that's the root cause is not
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this communication, but the root cause is
the actual trust, the root causes that
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everything the other person says is seen
through a very negative light. Everything
00:21:33.879 --> 00:21:41.330
the other person said is interpreted in
the most negative way possible. And so if
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that is the root cause, then you just need
to build trust between these people and
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that will solve most of the conflict. So
let's do some practical tips for these
00:21:55.440 --> 00:22:01.549
individual talks. First of all, it needs
to happen in a neutral place. If you have
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like a clubhouse or a place that you
frequently gather, you can't do the
00:22:07.409 --> 00:22:13.489
private talks there. You need to do it
somewhere else. It's better if the place
00:22:13.489 --> 00:22:21.739
is public in the worst case for
everybody's safety, but also because
00:22:21.739 --> 00:22:30.600
because it helps people have some level of
control over their emotions. For example,
00:22:30.600 --> 00:22:36.129
a local bar or a comic-cafe or a board
game club is always very good. Find
00:22:36.129 --> 00:22:41.899
something that these people are
comfortable with. Second of all, you
00:22:41.899 --> 00:22:49.100
always have to do these talks, either face
to face, away from keyboard or by using a
00:22:49.100 --> 00:22:55.399
good video chat solution, because body
language and tone is incredibly important.
00:22:55.399 --> 00:22:59.519
You need to be able to see each other. You
need to be able to see each other, facial
00:22:59.519 --> 00:23:05.139
expressions, and you need to hear the tone
of each other's voice. And the quality
00:23:05.139 --> 00:23:09.459
needs to be good, first of all, in order
to have this extra channel of
00:23:09.459 --> 00:23:15.019
communication. And second of all, in order
to remove the frustration, because this
00:23:15.019 --> 00:23:20.980
kind of private talks can be very
frustrating and can be very taxing both to
00:23:20.980 --> 00:23:24.460
the person involved in the conflict and
the person who wants to solve the
00:23:24.460 --> 00:23:32.969
conflict. And so having decent audio and
video make sure that removes that
00:23:32.969 --> 00:23:37.950
frustration. And so then you can focus on
the frustration of the conversation
00:23:37.950 --> 00:23:43.660
itself. Third of all always take
notes during this conversation. It helps
00:23:43.660 --> 00:23:47.629
build trust. It shows them that you are
actually taking what they are saying
00:23:47.629 --> 00:23:56.459
seriously and they can be very useful to
reflect on the conversation afterwards.
00:23:56.459 --> 00:24:03.010
Then you can initiate a private talk
simply by being direct and authentic. Just
00:24:03.010 --> 00:24:08.729
say: "I'd like to talk to you in private
to understand this issue better". Things
00:24:08.729 --> 00:24:13.899
like I'd like to help and I want to
understand your point of view. Those are
00:24:13.899 --> 00:24:19.030
very good things to say in order to
initiate a conversation, make sure that
00:24:19.030 --> 00:24:28.639
it's very clear to them that you are there
to help them too. It's also important to be
00:24:28.639 --> 00:24:38.879
authentic and to be humble. Don't say
things that you don't actually mean.
00:24:38.879 --> 00:24:45.759
However, you have to get into the
conversation with the mindset to listen,
00:24:45.759 --> 00:24:57.949
with the intention to listen. And so this
might be, this can be a bit controversial,
00:24:57.949 --> 00:25:03.419
like these two things might be against
each other because it's it's very hard
00:25:03.419 --> 00:25:09.799
when you see a conflict to get into this
first conversation with the idea of I
00:25:09.799 --> 00:25:16.999
don't actually understand what a conflict
is about. But even if you think that you
00:25:16.999 --> 00:25:21.649
know what the conflict is about, very
often when you try to find the root cause
00:25:21.649 --> 00:25:26.179
of the conflict, you find out it is
actually something else that is different
00:25:26.179 --> 00:25:34.409
from from what you told. And so be humble
about your own knowledge about the
00:25:34.409 --> 00:25:44.409 line:1
conflict. Then the individual talks itself.
First, it's very important to explain that
00:25:44.409 --> 00:25:52.059
they are valued. Try to think about the
valuable things that this person brings to
00:25:52.059 --> 00:25:57.209
your community or the valuable work that
they are doing. And then second of all,
00:25:57.209 --> 00:26:03.340
just ask them to explain their point of
view and listen, let them blow off steam
00:26:03.340 --> 00:26:09.249
and start to build trust by showing them
that you want to understand them by
00:26:09.249 --> 00:26:14.229
validating their feelings, but stay
authentic and don't pick sides. It's very
00:26:14.229 --> 00:26:28.989
important not to pick sides. It's very
important not to pick sides because
00:26:28.989 --> 00:26:34.929
otherwise people will think that you are
not neutral and it will be a lot harder to
00:26:34.929 --> 00:26:44.429
fix this conflict. Then towards the end of
the conversation, trying to find the
00:26:44.429 --> 00:26:51.239
actual root causes of the conflict and
summarize that. Summarize them verbally
00:26:51.239 --> 00:26:58.489
and try to write them down and ask the
other person's opinion about, do you agree
00:26:58.489 --> 00:27:06.440
that that this is the root cause and this
really requires digging deeper? I
00:27:06.440 --> 00:27:12.240
explained the example before where a lot
of times when somebody doesn't trust
00:27:12.240 --> 00:27:21.309
somebody else, they will start to
interpret any communication in the worst
00:27:21.309 --> 00:27:26.700
way possible. And so in order to figure
out how to dig deeper, to figure out if
00:27:26.700 --> 00:27:31.769
this is the cause, you can ask, like if your
friend would say the exact same thing,
00:27:31.769 --> 00:27:39.359
would you have the same reaction? Most of
the time the people answer: "no, no". And
00:27:39.359 --> 00:27:47.240
if I would think maybe I misunderstood it
because this is my friends, they don't
00:27:47.240 --> 00:27:54.899
want to say something so negative about
me. Then this point is optional, but it
00:27:54.899 --> 00:28:00.749
can be useful to explain other people's
views if you already have some idea of
00:28:00.749 --> 00:28:12.300
other people's views, it can be can be
useful to also discuss this in this first
00:28:12.300 --> 00:28:18.639
initial conversation, and especially
explain your views like this conflict is
00:28:18.639 --> 00:28:25.230
dragging our community down. This is the
reason why I want to solve this conflict.
00:28:25.230 --> 00:28:30.480
And finally, ask them how they think it
could be solved. Sometimes these are
00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:36.389
completely ridiculous ideas, but sometimes
they also have some very good ideas about
00:28:36.389 --> 00:28:45.141
how the conflict could be solved. The
second step in this in the private talk
00:28:45.141 --> 00:28:52.610
pattern is the discussion of the two
parties together and never do a group
00:28:52.610 --> 00:29:01.340
discussion. I would try to always do it
with two people. And the goal of this
00:29:01.340 --> 00:29:08.769
discussion is to get these people talking
to each other, because a lot of the times,
00:29:08.769 --> 00:29:15.080
a lot of conflict is created by people not
communicating properly with each other.
00:29:15.080 --> 00:29:19.899
And that at a certain point, the
communication just stops completely, and
00:29:19.899 --> 00:29:26.859
that's the point where stuff starts to
explode. The second goal is to work
00:29:26.859 --> 00:29:31.630
towards understanding each other's
viewpoints, but this requires people to
00:29:31.630 --> 00:29:36.999
actually talk to each other. And then the
third goal is to define concrete steps to
00:29:36.999 --> 00:29:41.430
solve the issue. It's very important that
these steps are concrete so that you can
00:29:41.430 --> 00:29:50.400
later coach them and see if these steps
are being followed. So the setup of the
00:29:50.400 --> 00:29:55.190
discussion is the same as the setup of the
individual talks, which the distinction
00:29:55.190 --> 00:29:59.860
that it's very important to be the first
person there. If it's in real life
00:29:59.860 --> 00:30:06.999
location, come there 30 minutes beforehand
or come their on time, depending on if
00:30:06.999 --> 00:30:15.009
it's common in your culture to be on time
or not, or if it's an online video call,
00:30:15.009 --> 00:30:19.970
make sure you're the first person that
initiates the call. Because if these two
00:30:19.970 --> 00:30:28.200
people are there without you, it will
become very awkward. Then the course of
00:30:28.200 --> 00:30:33.609
the discussion. The first thing you need
to do in this discussion is to explain the
00:30:33.609 --> 00:30:40.289
root cause and then discuss and write down
concrete steps to fix the conflict. They
00:30:40.289 --> 00:30:45.399
need to be concrete because you need to be
able to track progress and and every party
00:30:45.399 --> 00:30:55.820
needs to be. There can be no confusion
about whether or not there is progress. If
00:30:55.820 --> 00:31:01.279
those steps are not concrete enough, then
you can start to start to have a
00:31:01.279 --> 00:31:05.600
discussion about whether or not there is
actual progress about whether or not the
00:31:05.600 --> 00:31:09.289
steps are being followed. If they are
concrete enough, then there's no
00:31:09.289 --> 00:31:18.299
discussion. A bad kind of concrete step is
keep the desk smartly clean desks in
00:31:18.299 --> 00:31:23.889
hackerspaces, specifically clean desks are
often an issue. But one of the big issues
00:31:23.889 --> 00:31:29.309
is that people's ideas and people's
expectations of how clean the desk should
00:31:29.309 --> 00:31:36.159
be are very different. And so keep the
desks more clean. Will will mean different
00:31:36.159 --> 00:31:42.179
things to different people. So make it
concrete. For example, clean does desk
00:31:42.179 --> 00:31:53.770
completely every time you leave the space.
This step is something that might be
00:31:53.770 --> 00:32:02.109
overshooting. So in hackerspaces, for
example, it's often allowed to have some
00:32:02.109 --> 00:32:08.159
clutter on the desk if you're working on a
long term project, but there are always
00:32:08.159 --> 00:32:17.620
people who have who succeed that limit,
who have who leave way too much clutter on
00:32:17.620 --> 00:32:25.139
desks and who take up all the desks in the
entire space and having a clean desk,
00:32:25.139 --> 00:32:29.409
having them clean the desk completely
every time they leave the space is
00:32:29.409 --> 00:32:40.059
something that is like an overshoot. It is
too clean. Then what do we actually want
00:32:40.059 --> 00:32:46.399
as a space. But it is that way because
that makes it much, much easier to track
00:32:46.399 --> 00:32:51.010
progress that make it makes it much more
concrete. If they are out of the space and
00:32:51.010 --> 00:32:57.169
the desk is still cluttered, then they
didn't do it. Then they broke their
00:32:57.169 --> 00:33:04.649
promise. Another good step is when this
person says something to me, and I think
00:33:04.649 --> 00:33:11.849
it's insulting. Talk to it, talk about it
to another person, and maybe the other
00:33:11.849 --> 00:33:20.340
person can translate what the person means
if during the discussion you see that the
00:33:20.340 --> 00:33:25.639
these people really start to communicate
very well, then a step could be. But I
00:33:25.639 --> 00:33:31.129
think you are insulting me. I will say it
to you and then we can discuss it together
00:33:31.129 --> 00:33:35.309
and then we can clear it out that they
don't actually mean it in an insulting
00:33:35.309 --> 00:33:43.630
way. Finally, understanding each other and
having that discussion and starting
00:33:43.630 --> 00:33:50.129
communication is often already a very big
part of the solution. So if you don't have
00:33:50.129 --> 00:33:54.899
a lot of clear steps that might not be
such a big issue, because simply talking
00:33:54.899 --> 00:34:02.220
to each other solves a lot of issues. I
think 90 percent of all teen drama series
00:34:02.220 --> 00:34:08.430
would be solved by just having the
characters talk to each other. And this is
00:34:08.430 --> 00:34:17.060
sadly the case in real life too. So after
discussion, right down the concrete steps
00:34:17.060 --> 00:34:24.520
that you agreed upon in a discussion and
send it to everyone. Send it to everyone
00:34:24.520 --> 00:34:29.550
involved, then the short description of
this was the core issue. This was the root
00:34:29.550 --> 00:34:34.270
cause of the conflict. And this is what we
are going to do to address it. Put it on
00:34:34.270 --> 00:34:39.790
paper, even though you don't have any
authority, even though they don't have to
00:34:39.790 --> 00:34:45.610
follow it, simply having it written down
and having them agree upon it during the
00:34:45.610 --> 00:34:50.870
discussion will make it much more official
for themselves. You don't need authority
00:34:50.870 --> 00:34:59.670
for this. Second of all, it's very useful
to keep coaching and do the follow up.
00:34:59.670 --> 00:35:06.190
Make sure that the conversation between
these two people keeps going, otherwise
00:35:06.190 --> 00:35:11.830
the anger and frustration will start to
get bottled up again and then at a certain
00:35:11.830 --> 00:35:16.190
point they will start to interpret all
communication again, very, very
00:35:16.190 --> 00:35:29.730
negatively. And then the conflict happens
again. So the overall idea of the of the
00:35:29.730 --> 00:35:34.210
private talk pattern is that most
interpersonal conflict is solved by
00:35:34.210 --> 00:35:40.650
talking to each other. However, emotions
make that very, very hard because people
00:35:40.650 --> 00:35:45.410
just stop talking to each other because
they're afraid of the confrontation and
00:35:45.410 --> 00:35:51.320
because when they talk to each other, the
emotions make stuff explode. And so first
00:35:51.320 --> 00:35:58.210
you do the initial private talk where you
get out all the emotions and and and you
00:35:58.210 --> 00:36:02.880
make sure that people understand that
that's you make it clear that you
00:36:02.880 --> 00:36:08.130
understand them and that you hear them.
And then during the second talk, you get
00:36:08.130 --> 00:36:17.230
these people together and you get them to
talk to each other. A second smaller idea
00:36:17.230 --> 00:36:23.580
of the private talk pattern is that
conflict is extremely hard to solve in the
00:36:23.580 --> 00:36:31.880
group. During meetings, meetings are one
of the worst places to solve conflict at
00:36:31.880 --> 00:36:41.630
having private personal talks is much,
much better than doing it in the group. So
00:36:41.630 --> 00:36:45.990
I have to add a disclaimer to this. I
started the talk by saying most people are
00:36:45.990 --> 00:36:53.150
good. Well, some people are bad. If
people have genuine malicious intent or
00:36:53.150 --> 00:37:00.310 line:1
inherently incompatible with your
community, you have to kick them out. The
00:37:00.310 --> 00:37:06.890
private talk pattern will make it very
clear who is like this, the private, after
00:37:06.890 --> 00:37:11.220
going through this entire process, it will
be clear whether or not these people
00:37:11.220 --> 00:37:16.600
actually have genuine malicious intentions
or whether these people are inherently
00:37:16.600 --> 00:37:22.080
incompatible. If it's the case, kick them
out. But again, you're not kicking them
00:37:22.080 --> 00:37:30.770
out to punish them. You're simply kicking
them out to protect the community. Most
00:37:30.770 --> 00:37:36.590
times the community is the common of the
organization, you might have a certain
00:37:36.590 --> 00:37:41.880
goal, but you can only reach that goal
when you have a healthy community. And so
00:37:41.880 --> 00:37:47.580
in order to protect this community, you
need to make harsh decisions and kick
00:37:47.580 --> 00:37:55.210
people out. Of course, given that these
communities are, for example, run on
00:37:55.210 --> 00:38:01.260
doocracy or run on consensus decision
making, you can't decide to kick them out
00:38:01.260 --> 00:38:12.170
yourselves. But use the processes that are
in your community to kick people out when
00:38:12.170 --> 00:38:22.800
after this process it's very, very clear
that they're inherently incompatible. So
00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:30.220
thanks for listening to the talk, I hope
it was useful and I hope some people can
00:38:30.220 --> 00:38:40.500
solve some conflict in their communities.
Obviously, this entire talk was based on
00:38:40.500 --> 00:38:48.990
my own experience, which hackerspace Gent
in Belgium. And so your mileage may vary.
00:38:48.990 --> 00:38:53.500
This worked for us. This worked very well
for us. Every time we tried it, it
00:38:53.500 --> 00:39:02.100
actually worked. But tweak it, make it
your own, make it so it works for your
00:39:02.100 --> 00:39:08.790
community.
My name is Merlijn Sebrechts. I'm from
00:39:08.790 --> 00:39:13.650
hackerspace Gent in Belgium. If you want
to know how to build a community of
00:39:13.650 --> 00:39:19.950
equals, go to hackerspace.design and read
the hackerspace blueprint. And it also has
00:39:19.950 --> 00:39:28.840
links to other talks I did about doocracy.
And then finally, this talk was partly
00:39:28.840 --> 00:39:36.340
inspired by a video by Jono Bacon: "A new
way to look at conflict resolution." And
00:39:36.340 --> 00:39:45.220
surprisingly, I think a few months ago he
released that video and surprisingly, the
00:39:45.220 --> 00:39:51.110
process that he used in professional
organizations and companies to do conflict
00:39:51.110 --> 00:39:58.690
resolution looks a lot like the private
talk pattern. Jono Bacon was the former
00:39:58.690 --> 00:40:05.000
community manager of the Ubuntu Linux
project. And so he's a very experienced
00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:12.860
person and knows a lot about how to build
communities. So if there are any
00:40:12.860 --> 00:40:18.680
questions, let's hear it on.
Herald: OK, thank you for your talk. There
00:40:18.680 --> 00:40:24.160
are indeed many questions, and the first
is you've mentioned repeatedly that this
00:40:24.160 --> 00:40:29.400
is, of course, based on your own personal
experience. But, what do you think that
00:40:29.400 --> 00:40:33.980
this model of something like it could also
work on a larger level, on a perhaps
00:40:33.980 --> 00:40:46.060
regional or even super regional scale?
Merlijn Sebrechts: Are you ... I am I'm
00:40:46.060 --> 00:40:52.040
going to interpret that question as like
having having different countries solving
00:40:52.040 --> 00:41:03.180
conflict between different countries. I'm
not sure. I'm not sure because this matter
00:41:03.180 --> 00:41:07.660
to specifically for interpersonal
conflict, conflict between different
00:41:07.660 --> 00:41:19.160
people, although the idea of finding the
root cause is still very useful. I'm not
00:41:19.160 --> 00:41:28.210
sure if it's possible because you can't
talk to a country as an individual. The
00:41:28.210 --> 00:41:33.910
country is composed of many different
people, and so it is the total behavior of
00:41:33.910 --> 00:41:42.960
this country is some emerges from the
behavior of all the individuals. And it's
00:41:42.960 --> 00:41:46.580
very, very hard to find a single
individual that you can talk to that
00:41:46.580 --> 00:41:51.670
represents this total group.
Herald: I'm not sure if the question was
00:41:51.670 --> 00:41:57.200
actually meant that way. If it wasn't,
please write it again in the chat and I'll
00:41:57.200 --> 00:42:02.500
ask it again in a more specific way. And
the next question is, what if we don't
00:42:02.500 --> 00:42:11.520
have a common basis for such a system
anymore and we cannot start with personal
00:42:11.520 --> 00:42:15.921
conversations anymore? Because just
letting things implode and then start
00:42:15.921 --> 00:42:20.290
rebuilding everything from scratch is
probably usually not an option. So would
00:42:20.290 --> 00:42:24.500
you have any ideas on
how one could proceed then?
00:42:24.500 --> 00:42:34.220
Merlijn Sebrechts: I'm also not a big fan
of starting completely new. What we did is
00:42:34.220 --> 00:42:41.030
that we actually didn't start from zero.
We during the hackerspace workshops, we
00:42:41.030 --> 00:42:47.850
started from the the system that we had
and we started to think about what do we
00:42:47.850 --> 00:42:51.860
like about the current system and what do
we dislike about the current system. And
00:42:51.860 --> 00:42:57.460
we started to gradually change it. And
throughout the years with gradual changes
00:42:57.460 --> 00:43:04.170
and by keep having these having the
hackerspace workshops every single time,
00:43:04.170 --> 00:43:09.820
and we encountered issues, we were able to
gradually change and improve our
00:43:09.820 --> 00:43:17.370
community. So even though, like the big
implosion happened in 2014, the big
00:43:17.370 --> 00:43:22.960
resurgence didn't happen at once. It
happened over the course of a few years
00:43:22.960 --> 00:43:28.220
and it happened by slightly improving it
and slightly changing the system every
00:43:28.220 --> 00:43:34.830
every year and took a very long time in
order to to make that complete change. So
00:43:34.830 --> 00:43:43.540
I would my concrete advice is to start
doing workshops in order to fix the
00:43:43.540 --> 00:43:47.910
system, in order to fix your community,
start doing workshops and see what comes
00:43:47.910 --> 00:43:53.290
out of those workshops.
Herald: OK, so at least hope is not lost,
00:43:53.290 --> 00:43:59.280
I guess, even if it can be difficult. And
then the next question is, isn't it a
00:43:59.280 --> 00:44:03.950
problem that you mentioned always
identifying a root cause of a problem?
00:44:03.950 --> 00:44:08.620
What do you do if the cause of a root
problem is somehow subjective and cannot
00:44:08.620 --> 00:44:16.400
be agreed upon? What should one do then?
Merlijn Sebrechts: I think there always
00:44:16.400 --> 00:44:22.890
needs to be some common base. And in our
hackerspace, the common base is that the
00:44:22.890 --> 00:44:28.390
hackerspace itself and the hackerspace
community is the thing that we need to
00:44:28.390 --> 00:44:37.290
protect. And so if there is ambiguity of
the cause, the cause of the conflict and
00:44:37.290 --> 00:44:42.720
we simply start to look at what behavior
is advantageous to our hackerspace and
00:44:42.720 --> 00:44:48.690
what behavior isn't. And we use that as
the common ground and we start to build
00:44:48.690 --> 00:44:58.110
from there depending on what the goal is
of your community. The common base will be
00:44:58.110 --> 00:45:03.770
different, but I think in every community
there will be this common base, even if
00:45:03.770 --> 00:45:09.000
the common base is simply that it's the
existence of the community is the thing
00:45:09.000 --> 00:45:13.030
that everybody wants.
Herald: OK, then, thank you again for your
00:45:13.030 --> 00:45:16.870
great talk. There is one last question,
which is someone wanting to see the cat
00:45:16.870 --> 00:45:19.760
again.
Merlijn Sebrechts: The what?
00:45:19.760 --> 00:45:24.510
Herald: The cat.
Merlijn Sebrechts: They're sadly not
00:45:24.510 --> 00:45:32.180
anymore. It seems they've gone downstairs.
Herald: OK. That's all we have is the
00:45:32.180 --> 00:45:39.340
waving cat in my screen, which is. We'll
have to make do. OK, thank you for your
00:45:39.340 --> 00:45:45.230
talk and, have fun at the remote chaos
experience alone and everyone watching
00:45:45.230 --> 00:45:52.160
this. Of course, this was our last talk
for today. We'll see you again tomorrow.
00:45:52.160 --> 00:45:56.150
Until then. And happy hacking.
00:45:56.150 --> 00:46:02.190
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