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prerol music
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Herald: OK, then welcome come back[br]everyone. With these void spaces of the
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Internet into which we've all been forced[br]to migrate. This is our last talk for
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today: "How to solve conflict in a[br]community of equals" by Merlijn. We'll
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talk about specifically how to solve[br]conflict in a community in which there is
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no leader based on his own experiences from[br]hacker camps and the hackerspace in Gent
0:00:41.070,0:00:48.740
in Belgium. So without further I do. Merlijn[br]the stream is yours and start the talk.
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Merlijn Sebrechts: Thanks for the[br]introduction and thanks for having me here
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to share my experience, so to give a[br]little bit of background about why I'm
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doing this talk. About seven or eight[br]years ago, I came into hackerspace Gent.
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And at that time it was still flourishing.[br]But in 2014, the hackerspace imploded
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because of internal conflict. And this is[br]something that seems to happen a lot with
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hackerspaces and with other organizations[br]which are less structured, don't have
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clear leadership or a clear hierarchy. But[br]in 2014, one of the original founders of
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the hackerspace started the idea to[br]actually create workshops around finding a
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system to fix our community. I was very[br]interested in that initiative. So I joined
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the so I joined the workshops and together[br]with the other people from the
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hackerspace, we started building a system[br]that basically got the best out of people,
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but that was still very close to anarchy,[br]very a very chaotic system. This is my
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cat, Simba. He will be also here for the[br]talk, probably. And in throughout the year
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2014, we started writing down how the[br]system would work. First very informally,
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and in 2015 I decided to become a board[br]member of hackerspace Gent with the
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explicit goal to implement this system.[br]And the first thing I did was basically
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change the role of board members into[br]removing any of their leadership
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responsibilities, but keeping the goal of[br]maintaining the core infrastructure of the
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hackerspace and acting as a counselor in[br]order to fix conflict. And it's this
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second role that I will talk about in this[br]in this talk. Throughout the following
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years, we kept on hacking the system,[br]hacking our own hackerspace, and finally
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everything we wrote down, we bundled it[br]into the "hackerspace blueprint", which is
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basically a small booklet describing how[br]to run a hackerspace using doocracy. But
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it's written very generically so that it[br]can also be used by other organizations
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which want to know more about how to[br]actually run a doocracy, how to run an
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organization where nobody is actually[br]leading the organization. In 2019
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throughout the previous years, that[br]hackerspace kept becoming better and
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better and the environment and the[br]atmosphere and the hackerspace kept
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becoming better. But in 2019 we had this[br]real point of like this is the point at
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which the space is running itself as a[br]board. We don't need to actually intervene
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anymore. The only thing we need to do is[br]make sure the bills are paid and make sure
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our Internet still works. But the[br]doocracy worked. And so I started I
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organized a bunch of talks and and[br]discussions all on our experience with
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building this community. And time and time[br]again, I got the exact same question, how
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do you how do you actually solve[br]interpersonal conflict. And. So, as I
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said, "The Hackerspace BLUEPRINT". It only[br]talks about how to build this community of
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equals. It doesn't actually talk about how[br]to solve conflict in this community. The
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only thing that's described in "The[br]Hackerspace BLUEPRINT" is to use the
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private talk pattern, but it's not[br]actually explained by the private talk
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pattern is. So in this talk, I will[br]explain what a private talk pattern is and
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and how to use it to solve conflict. Solve[br]conflict without having to use authority,
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without having to use explicit leadership[br]or forcing people to fall in line. So the
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private talk pattern, we didn't invent it.[br]This is an old hackerspace pattern. Which
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is something that a lot of people, a lot[br]of different hackerspaces and notice that
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they were using the exact same method in[br]order to solve conflict and in their
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hackerspace. And so it became like a[br]design and design pattern for
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hackerspaces. This is a good way to solve[br]conflict. And so it works in two stages.
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The first stage is that when there is a[br]conflict, you first talk to the involved
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parties in private. You listen to them,[br]you let them know how the group feels
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about their behavior and you find you[br]trying to find the root cause of the
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actual conflict that's going on. The[br]second part is that you done moderate a
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discussion between the different parties[br]involved in the conflict. The goal of this
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discussion is to help these parties[br]understand each other and to discuss and
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write down concrete solutions. Now, I[br]could end my talk here, but I don't think
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it would be very useful because there's[br]actually a lot of beneath to using this
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pattern. Well. And so I'm going to get[br]more information about each stage and
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about the kind of mindset that you need in[br]order to use this pattern. So the first
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question is, obviously, who should do[br]this, who should organize these talks?
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Well, you you should do this because[br]you're the person listening to this talk.
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You're clearly interested in how to solve[br]this conflict. And so you're probably a
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very good person to actually organize[br]this. There is no formal authority needed
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because this pattern is about offering[br]your help, you are not forcing the
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conflict to be solved. You are not forcing[br]people to solve conflict. You are going to
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people and you're saying, hey, look, it's[br]clear that there is some conflict here and
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this conflict is an issue to everyone[br]involved. So can I help you solve this
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conflict? And when you open your help,[br]most people actually accept it without
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questioning it. However, it's very[br]important that the person who does this,
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they need to be seen as someone neutral to[br]both parties. This is this becomes an
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issue. For example, if you've already[br]chosen sides in the conflict, then the
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other party will not see you as a[br]trustworthy, a neutral person. This can
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also be an issue if you're like very good[br]friends with one of the parties of the
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conflict. Then again the other party will[br]not see you as neutral. The second thing
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is, is that you have to be prepared to[br]listen, everyone joins every conversation
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with a whole bunch of preconceptions,[br]especially when a conversation is about
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conflict. Everybody has an idea in their[br]head about what the issue is of the
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conflict and how it should be solved.[br]However, a lot of times those issues tend
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to those preconceptions, those preexisting[br]ideas tend to be wrong. And when you
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actually listen to people, you can[br]actually figure out what the root cause is
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and you might be surprised. And it's[br]hurting is that it's very important to
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stay authentic because the people involved[br]need to trust you. And the only way to get
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them to trust you is to show them that[br]you're authentic and that you are
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genuinely willing to find a solution that[br]benefits both parties. Then the next thing
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you need is you need the right mindset and[br]the first part of the right mindset is
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that conflict needs to be solved. As[br]humans, we have this tendency to, when we
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see conflict, to just try to ignore it and[br]hope that it goes away by itself or most
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reasonable humans. This is their first[br]initial response. However, by ignoring
0:10:18.780,0:10:23.910
conflict, you actually allow it to grow.[br]And when it grows, it becomes more and
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more difficult to actually solve it[br]because more and more people get involved
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and it becomes harder and harder to find[br]the actual root cause of the problem. So
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you need to solve it and you need to solve[br]it as early as possible. It's much better
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to to solve this conflict, to intervene[br]too early than too late, because given
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that this is a process that is beneficial[br]to both sides, there is not really a
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downside to intervening to early. You're[br]not forcing anybody to do anything, you
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just want to hear them out, you just you[br]just want to know more about the conflict.
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Then the second thing is that the only[br]people who can stop the conflict are those
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involved. I said that the first response[br]is to ignore conflict. Well, the first
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response is to ignore conflict when you[br]were interacting with the people who are
0:11:25.850,0:11:29.780
involved with the conflict. And then when[br]you get to people who are not involved
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with the conflict, you start talking about[br]it, then you start discussing it and and
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start discussing what might be done to[br]actually solve the issue. And most of the
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times, these discussions happen without[br]the people who are involved in the
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conflict or without the people that other[br]people are having issues of it. And this
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will almost certainly fail, these[br]attempts. Talking to third parties has has
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very little value. You can do it in order[br]to get some ideas, but you always need to
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include the people involved in the[br]conflict in these discussions or your
0:12:07.240,0:12:15.980
attempts will fail. Then the third mindset[br]point is that the contributions of a
0:12:15.980,0:12:22.370
single individual or a few individuals in[br]your organization are never worked having
0:12:22.370,0:12:29.070
that conflict. A lot of times and people[br]in their head, they start to make a
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balance of like, yes, this person is[br]creating conflict in our organization, but
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this person also contributes a lot to our[br]organization so that in our heads, that
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gives them some kind of right to make[br]conflict, but they are never worth it. You
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do not owe it to them to allow them to[br]create conflict. If you are afraid that by
0:13:07.750,0:13:13.400
talking to them about a conflict, they[br]will lower their contributions, then you
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should know that you are trading short[br]term gains by compromising long term
0:13:19.630,0:13:26.150
viability. In the short term, they might[br]keep contributing. But in the long term,
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this will poison your community and your[br]community will not be long term viable,
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given that this is the track for hackers[br]against climate change. Climate change,
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for example, is an issue that requires[br]long term solutions and that requires
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communities who keep putting pressure on[br]everyone over the long term. And so. Or in
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terms of conflict, you should always[br]optimize for long term viability, not for
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short term gains. And the thing is that[br]solving the conflict even becomes easier
0:14:08.860,0:14:13.550
when these people are actually really[br]contributing a lot to your organization,
0:14:13.550,0:14:18.600
because you can start your discussion by[br]with saying we really value your
0:14:18.600,0:14:23.660
contributions and we want to keep you[br]here. And that's why we want to solve this
0:14:23.660,0:14:28.630
conflict. You're not a bad person. You're[br]clearly not a bad person. There's just
0:14:28.630,0:14:35.180
this conflict that needs to be solved. The[br]second part of the right mindset is that
0:14:35.180,0:14:41.750
complex needs to be solved and you need to[br]see solved as like solving a puzzle or
0:14:41.750,0:14:47.710
solving a math equation. You can't force[br]people to stop conflict. You need to
0:14:47.710,0:14:51.850
figure out how the pieces are not[br]connecting to each other. And you need to
0:14:51.850,0:14:58.320
figure out how you can connect the pieces[br]in a way that a puzzle works. As an
0:14:58.320,0:15:03.520
example, punishing people will get you[br]nowhere, even though it is like an innate
0:15:03.520,0:15:08.700
response that we have when, when when[br]conflict arises. We want to see people
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punished, even though this this doesn't[br]actually improve the situation to punish
0:15:15.090,0:15:20.340
people. And when you dig deeper into the[br]conflict, you see that that's most
0:15:20.340,0:15:26.440
conflict is created by by bad[br]communication, by cultural differences and
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by differences in expectation, not by[br]people being bad people. And so there's
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actually no reason to punish anyone when[br]you're trying to solve a conflict. So
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every time you want to do a certain[br]measure like banning people from joining
0:15:46.540,0:15:51.390
your community space for a while, you[br]always need to ask yourself, how does this
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improve the situation. Temporarily banning[br]people can be very useful. It can be
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useful to de-escalate conflict. It can be[br]useful to to to make sure that stuff
0:16:04.270,0:16:12.820
doesn't blow up before it's at rest. But you[br]should always do it in order to solve
0:16:12.820,0:16:16.880
something, in order to get a certain[br]result, not in order to punish people for
0:16:16.880,0:16:26.900
what they have done. The whole point of[br]this is that when conflict is solved is
0:16:26.900,0:16:33.190
actually solved, everybody involved should[br]win. Nobody should feel like they are the
0:16:33.190,0:16:38.540
looser because almost always people do[br]not actually want conflict and people do
0:16:38.540,0:16:48.490
not actually benefit from conflict. The[br]third thing about having the right
0:16:48.490,0:16:52.410
mindset is, that you need to get into[br]these kind of discussions and these kind
0:16:52.410,0:16:57.740
of talks with people with the mindest,[br]that most people are good.
0:16:57.740,0:17:02.330
Hanlon's razor also says:[br]"Never attribute to malice that
0:17:02.330,0:17:08.100
which can be adequately explained by[br]incompetence." It's a very complicated way
0:17:08.100,0:17:15.009
to say that if you have two possible[br]explanations for some of these behavior
0:17:15.009,0:17:22.549
and one of those explanations is this[br]person is trying to do bad things. And the
0:17:22.549,0:17:29.259
second explanation is this person is[br]incredibly incompetent, then probably the
0:17:29.259,0:17:34.600
explanation that involves incompetence[br]will be the right explanation, because
0:17:34.600,0:17:39.030
most people are good. So most of the times[br]when you need to choose between these two
0:17:39.030,0:17:45.330
explanations, choosing the incompetence[br]one is the right one. And so when you are
0:17:45.330,0:17:52.009
in talks with people always in the back of[br]your head, think about where can I find
0:17:52.009,0:18:00.529
the incompetence? What is the incompetence[br]that that created this issue? And so I've
0:18:00.529,0:18:05.230
talked about cultural differences. For[br]example, not being aware of cultural
0:18:05.230,0:18:11.500
differences is an incompetence. Not having[br]the right communication skills is an
0:18:11.500,0:18:21.001
incompetence. If you try to search for the[br]incompetence, most of the time, you will
0:18:21.001,0:18:28.320
get to the root cause of the conflict. So[br]the first step in the private talk pattern
0:18:28.320,0:18:33.289
is the private talks, the individual[br]talks, the goal of the private talks are
0:18:33.289,0:18:39.169
first to let the person vent. Because in[br]the end, we want the two in both parties
0:18:39.169,0:18:44.350
to talk to each other. But that's not[br]possible if there are too many emotions.
0:18:44.350,0:18:51.080
So these individual talks are in order to[br]let these emotions out and make sure that
0:18:51.080,0:19:01.440
these people are hurt. When they are hurt,[br]when they vent these emotions to you and
0:19:01.440,0:19:07.519
they have the feeling that they are heard[br]by you, then these emotions will be become
0:19:07.519,0:19:12.769
smaller. And then the next talks, they[br]will be able to have more rational and
0:19:12.769,0:19:18.760
less emotional and less explosive[br]conversations. The second goal of these
0:19:18.760,0:19:23.840
individual talks is to build trust and[br]understanding. And this has to be both
0:19:23.840,0:19:32.410
ways. You have to be able to trust them.[br]And they have to be able to trust you. And
0:19:32.410,0:19:37.460
this understanding is very important.[br]First of all, you need to understand their
0:19:37.460,0:19:42.759
point of view. This doesn't need to be on[br]a level of like I would do the exact same
0:19:42.759,0:19:48.059
thing if I was in your place. But you need[br]to understand why they're doing it. And
0:19:48.059,0:19:55.950
then second of all, they also need to have[br]some kind of understanding of what the
0:19:55.950,0:20:01.369
problem is from the other side, like like[br]as outsiders. How do you look at this
0:20:01.369,0:20:06.929
problem? Then the last step of these[br]individual talks is to find the root
0:20:06.929,0:20:14.429
cause, find the root cause of the[br]conflict. So, a lot of times and I've seen
0:20:14.429,0:20:21.899
this happen a lot in hackerspaces, a lot[br]of times. When you look at the surface of
0:20:21.899,0:20:28.180
the conflict, it seems to be that that[br]that it's about certain behavior like this
0:20:28.180,0:20:37.879
person said. This person was very[br]dismissive of my work, for example. But
0:20:37.879,0:20:44.669
then, when you dig deeper, you find out[br]that there are actually other problems
0:20:44.669,0:20:50.960
which caused this and a lot of the times[br]some of the root causes that these people
0:20:50.960,0:20:58.990
don't actually trust each other. One of[br]the ways to find this out is to to ask a
0:20:58.990,0:21:09.970
person. So say the other person said[br]something that hurt you? If somebody else
0:21:09.970,0:21:13.480
would say the exact same thing, if a[br]friend of you would say the exact same
0:21:13.480,0:21:18.650
thing, how would you interpret it then?[br]Would you interpret it differently? And if
0:21:18.650,0:21:22.879
they would interpret it differently, then,[br]you know, that's the root cause is not
0:21:22.879,0:21:28.950
this communication, but the root cause is[br]the actual trust, the root causes that
0:21:28.950,0:21:33.879
everything the other person says is seen[br]through a very negative light. Everything
0:21:33.879,0:21:41.330
the other person said is interpreted in[br]the most negative way possible. And so if
0:21:41.330,0:21:45.529
that is the root cause, then you just need[br]to build trust between these people and
0:21:45.529,0:21:55.440
that will solve most of the conflict. So[br]let's do some practical tips for these
0:21:55.440,0:22:01.549
individual talks. First of all, it needs[br]to happen in a neutral place. If you have
0:22:01.549,0:22:07.409
like a clubhouse or a place that you[br]frequently gather, you can't do the
0:22:07.409,0:22:13.489
private talks there. You need to do it[br]somewhere else. It's better if the place
0:22:13.489,0:22:21.739
is public in the worst case for[br]everybody's safety, but also because
0:22:21.739,0:22:30.600
because it helps people have some level of[br]control over their emotions. For example,
0:22:30.600,0:22:36.129
a local bar or a comic-cafe or a board[br]game club is always very good. Find
0:22:36.129,0:22:41.899
something that these people are[br]comfortable with. Second of all, you
0:22:41.899,0:22:49.100
always have to do these talks, either face[br]to face, away from keyboard or by using a
0:22:49.100,0:22:55.399
good video chat solution, because body[br]language and tone is incredibly important.
0:22:55.399,0:22:59.519
You need to be able to see each other. You[br]need to be able to see each other, facial
0:22:59.519,0:23:05.139
expressions, and you need to hear the tone[br]of each other's voice. And the quality
0:23:05.139,0:23:09.459
needs to be good, first of all, in order[br]to have this extra channel of
0:23:09.459,0:23:15.019
communication. And second of all, in order[br]to remove the frustration, because this
0:23:15.019,0:23:20.980
kind of private talks can be very[br]frustrating and can be very taxing both to
0:23:20.980,0:23:24.460
the person involved in the conflict and[br]the person who wants to solve the
0:23:24.460,0:23:32.969
conflict. And so having decent audio and[br]video make sure that removes that
0:23:32.969,0:23:37.950
frustration. And so then you can focus on[br]the frustration of the conversation
0:23:37.950,0:23:43.660
itself. Third of all always take[br]notes during this conversation. It helps
0:23:43.660,0:23:47.629
build trust. It shows them that you are[br]actually taking what they are saying
0:23:47.629,0:23:56.459
seriously and they can be very useful to[br]reflect on the conversation afterwards.
0:23:56.459,0:24:03.010
Then you can initiate a private talk[br]simply by being direct and authentic. Just
0:24:03.010,0:24:08.729
say: "I'd like to talk to you in private[br]to understand this issue better". Things
0:24:08.729,0:24:13.899
like I'd like to help and I want to[br]understand your point of view. Those are
0:24:13.899,0:24:19.030
very good things to say in order to[br]initiate a conversation, make sure that
0:24:19.030,0:24:28.639
it's very clear to them that you are there[br]to help them too. It's also important to be
0:24:28.639,0:24:38.879
authentic and to be humble. Don't say[br]things that you don't actually mean.
0:24:38.879,0:24:45.759
However, you have to get into the[br]conversation with the mindset to listen,
0:24:45.759,0:24:57.949
with the intention to listen. And so this[br]might be, this can be a bit controversial,
0:24:57.949,0:25:03.419
like these two things might be against[br]each other because it's it's very hard
0:25:03.419,0:25:09.799
when you see a conflict to get into this[br]first conversation with the idea of I
0:25:09.799,0:25:16.999
don't actually understand what a conflict[br]is about. But even if you think that you
0:25:16.999,0:25:21.649
know what the conflict is about, very[br]often when you try to find the root cause
0:25:21.649,0:25:26.179
of the conflict, you find out it is[br]actually something else that is different
0:25:26.179,0:25:34.409
from from what you told. And so be humble[br]about your own knowledge about the
0:25:34.409,0:25:44.409
conflict. Then the individual talks itself.[br]First, it's very important to explain that
0:25:44.409,0:25:52.059
they are valued. Try to think about the[br]valuable things that this person brings to
0:25:52.059,0:25:57.209
your community or the valuable work that[br]they are doing. And then second of all,
0:25:57.209,0:26:03.340
just ask them to explain their point of[br]view and listen, let them blow off steam
0:26:03.340,0:26:09.249
and start to build trust by showing them[br]that you want to understand them by
0:26:09.249,0:26:14.229
validating their feelings, but stay[br]authentic and don't pick sides. It's very
0:26:14.229,0:26:28.989
important not to pick sides. It's very[br]important not to pick sides because
0:26:28.989,0:26:34.929
otherwise people will think that you are[br]not neutral and it will be a lot harder to
0:26:34.929,0:26:44.429
fix this conflict. Then towards the end of[br]the conversation, trying to find the
0:26:44.429,0:26:51.239
actual root causes of the conflict and[br]summarize that. Summarize them verbally
0:26:51.239,0:26:58.489
and try to write them down and ask the[br]other person's opinion about, do you agree
0:26:58.489,0:27:06.440
that that this is the root cause and this[br]really requires digging deeper? I
0:27:06.440,0:27:12.240
explained the example before where a lot[br]of times when somebody doesn't trust
0:27:12.240,0:27:21.309
somebody else, they will start to[br]interpret any communication in the worst
0:27:21.309,0:27:26.700
way possible. And so in order to figure[br]out how to dig deeper, to figure out if
0:27:26.700,0:27:31.769
this is the cause, you can ask, like if your[br]friend would say the exact same thing,
0:27:31.769,0:27:39.359
would you have the same reaction? Most of[br]the time the people answer: "no, no". And
0:27:39.359,0:27:47.240
if I would think maybe I misunderstood it[br]because this is my friends, they don't
0:27:47.240,0:27:54.899
want to say something so negative about[br]me. Then this point is optional, but it
0:27:54.899,0:28:00.749
can be useful to explain other people's[br]views if you already have some idea of
0:28:00.749,0:28:12.300
other people's views, it can be can be[br]useful to also discuss this in this first
0:28:12.300,0:28:18.639
initial conversation, and especially[br]explain your views like this conflict is
0:28:18.639,0:28:25.230
dragging our community down. This is the[br]reason why I want to solve this conflict.
0:28:25.230,0:28:30.480
And finally, ask them how they think it[br]could be solved. Sometimes these are
0:28:30.480,0:28:36.389
completely ridiculous ideas, but sometimes[br]they also have some very good ideas about
0:28:36.389,0:28:45.141
how the conflict could be solved. The[br]second step in this in the private talk
0:28:45.141,0:28:52.610
pattern is the discussion of the two[br]parties together and never do a group
0:28:52.610,0:29:01.340
discussion. I would try to always do it[br]with two people. And the goal of this
0:29:01.340,0:29:08.769
discussion is to get these people talking[br]to each other, because a lot of the times,
0:29:08.769,0:29:15.080
a lot of conflict is created by people not[br]communicating properly with each other.
0:29:15.080,0:29:19.899
And that at a certain point, the[br]communication just stops completely, and
0:29:19.899,0:29:26.859
that's the point where stuff starts to[br]explode. The second goal is to work
0:29:26.859,0:29:31.630
towards understanding each other's[br]viewpoints, but this requires people to
0:29:31.630,0:29:36.999
actually talk to each other. And then the[br]third goal is to define concrete steps to
0:29:36.999,0:29:41.430
solve the issue. It's very important that[br]these steps are concrete so that you can
0:29:41.430,0:29:50.400
later coach them and see if these steps[br]are being followed. So the setup of the
0:29:50.400,0:29:55.190
discussion is the same as the setup of the[br]individual talks, which the distinction
0:29:55.190,0:29:59.860
that it's very important to be the first[br]person there. If it's in real life
0:29:59.860,0:30:06.999
location, come there 30 minutes beforehand[br]or come their on time, depending on if
0:30:06.999,0:30:15.009
it's common in your culture to be on time[br]or not, or if it's an online video call,
0:30:15.009,0:30:19.970
make sure you're the first person that[br]initiates the call. Because if these two
0:30:19.970,0:30:28.200
people are there without you, it will[br]become very awkward. Then the course of
0:30:28.200,0:30:33.609
the discussion. The first thing you need[br]to do in this discussion is to explain the
0:30:33.609,0:30:40.289
root cause and then discuss and write down[br]concrete steps to fix the conflict. They
0:30:40.289,0:30:45.399
need to be concrete because you need to be[br]able to track progress and and every party
0:30:45.399,0:30:55.820
needs to be. There can be no confusion[br]about whether or not there is progress. If
0:30:55.820,0:31:01.279
those steps are not concrete enough, then[br]you can start to start to have a
0:31:01.279,0:31:05.600
discussion about whether or not there is[br]actual progress about whether or not the
0:31:05.600,0:31:09.289
steps are being followed. If they are[br]concrete enough, then there's no
0:31:09.289,0:31:18.299
discussion. A bad kind of concrete step is[br]keep the desk smartly clean desks in
0:31:18.299,0:31:23.889
hackerspaces, specifically clean desks are[br]often an issue. But one of the big issues
0:31:23.889,0:31:29.309
is that people's ideas and people's[br]expectations of how clean the desk should
0:31:29.309,0:31:36.159
be are very different. And so keep the[br]desks more clean. Will will mean different
0:31:36.159,0:31:42.179
things to different people. So make it[br]concrete. For example, clean does desk
0:31:42.179,0:31:53.770
completely every time you leave the space.[br]This step is something that might be
0:31:53.770,0:32:02.109
overshooting. So in hackerspaces, for[br]example, it's often allowed to have some
0:32:02.109,0:32:08.159
clutter on the desk if you're working on a[br]long term project, but there are always
0:32:08.159,0:32:17.620
people who have who succeed that limit,[br]who have who leave way too much clutter on
0:32:17.620,0:32:25.139
desks and who take up all the desks in the[br]entire space and having a clean desk,
0:32:25.139,0:32:29.409
having them clean the desk completely[br]every time they leave the space is
0:32:29.409,0:32:40.059
something that is like an overshoot. It is[br]too clean. Then what do we actually want
0:32:40.059,0:32:46.399
as a space. But it is that way because[br]that makes it much, much easier to track
0:32:46.399,0:32:51.010
progress that make it makes it much more[br]concrete. If they are out of the space and
0:32:51.010,0:32:57.169
the desk is still cluttered, then they[br]didn't do it. Then they broke their
0:32:57.169,0:33:04.649
promise. Another good step is when this[br]person says something to me, and I think
0:33:04.649,0:33:11.849
it's insulting. Talk to it, talk about it[br]to another person, and maybe the other
0:33:11.849,0:33:20.340
person can translate what the person means[br]if during the discussion you see that the
0:33:20.340,0:33:25.639
these people really start to communicate[br]very well, then a step could be. But I
0:33:25.639,0:33:31.129
think you are insulting me. I will say it[br]to you and then we can discuss it together
0:33:31.129,0:33:35.309
and then we can clear it out that they[br]don't actually mean it in an insulting
0:33:35.309,0:33:43.630
way. Finally, understanding each other and[br]having that discussion and starting
0:33:43.630,0:33:50.129
communication is often already a very big[br]part of the solution. So if you don't have
0:33:50.129,0:33:54.899
a lot of clear steps that might not be[br]such a big issue, because simply talking
0:33:54.899,0:34:02.220
to each other solves a lot of issues. I[br]think 90 percent of all teen drama series
0:34:02.220,0:34:08.430
would be solved by just having the[br]characters talk to each other. And this is
0:34:08.430,0:34:17.060
sadly the case in real life too. So after[br]discussion, right down the concrete steps
0:34:17.060,0:34:24.520
that you agreed upon in a discussion and[br]send it to everyone. Send it to everyone
0:34:24.520,0:34:29.550
involved, then the short description of[br]this was the core issue. This was the root
0:34:29.550,0:34:34.270
cause of the conflict. And this is what we[br]are going to do to address it. Put it on
0:34:34.270,0:34:39.790
paper, even though you don't have any[br]authority, even though they don't have to
0:34:39.790,0:34:45.610
follow it, simply having it written down[br]and having them agree upon it during the
0:34:45.610,0:34:50.870
discussion will make it much more official[br]for themselves. You don't need authority
0:34:50.870,0:34:59.670
for this. Second of all, it's very useful[br]to keep coaching and do the follow up.
0:34:59.670,0:35:06.190
Make sure that the conversation between[br]these two people keeps going, otherwise
0:35:06.190,0:35:11.830
the anger and frustration will start to[br]get bottled up again and then at a certain
0:35:11.830,0:35:16.190
point they will start to interpret all[br]communication again, very, very
0:35:16.190,0:35:29.730
negatively. And then the conflict happens[br]again. So the overall idea of the of the
0:35:29.730,0:35:34.210
private talk pattern is that most[br]interpersonal conflict is solved by
0:35:34.210,0:35:40.650
talking to each other. However, emotions[br]make that very, very hard because people
0:35:40.650,0:35:45.410
just stop talking to each other because[br]they're afraid of the confrontation and
0:35:45.410,0:35:51.320
because when they talk to each other, the[br]emotions make stuff explode. And so first
0:35:51.320,0:35:58.210
you do the initial private talk where you[br]get out all the emotions and and and you
0:35:58.210,0:36:02.880
make sure that people understand that[br]that's you make it clear that you
0:36:02.880,0:36:08.130
understand them and that you hear them.[br]And then during the second talk, you get
0:36:08.130,0:36:17.230
these people together and you get them to[br]talk to each other. A second smaller idea
0:36:17.230,0:36:23.580
of the private talk pattern is that[br]conflict is extremely hard to solve in the
0:36:23.580,0:36:31.880
group. During meetings, meetings are one[br]of the worst places to solve conflict at
0:36:31.880,0:36:41.630
having private personal talks is much,[br]much better than doing it in the group. So
0:36:41.630,0:36:45.990
I have to add a disclaimer to this. I[br]started the talk by saying most people are
0:36:45.990,0:36:53.150
good. Well, some people are bad. If[br]people have genuine malicious intent or
0:36:53.150,0:37:00.310
inherently incompatible with your[br]community, you have to kick them out. The
0:37:00.310,0:37:06.890
private talk pattern will make it very[br]clear who is like this, the private, after
0:37:06.890,0:37:11.220
going through this entire process, it will[br]be clear whether or not these people
0:37:11.220,0:37:16.600
actually have genuine malicious intentions[br]or whether these people are inherently
0:37:16.600,0:37:22.080
incompatible. If it's the case, kick them[br]out. But again, you're not kicking them
0:37:22.080,0:37:30.770
out to punish them. You're simply kicking[br]them out to protect the community. Most
0:37:30.770,0:37:36.590
times the community is the common of the[br]organization, you might have a certain
0:37:36.590,0:37:41.880
goal, but you can only reach that goal[br]when you have a healthy community. And so
0:37:41.880,0:37:47.580
in order to protect this community, you[br]need to make harsh decisions and kick
0:37:47.580,0:37:55.210
people out. Of course, given that these[br]communities are, for example, run on
0:37:55.210,0:38:01.260
doocracy or run on consensus decision[br]making, you can't decide to kick them out
0:38:01.260,0:38:12.170
yourselves. But use the processes that are[br]in your community to kick people out when
0:38:12.170,0:38:22.800
after this process it's very, very clear[br]that they're inherently incompatible. So
0:38:22.800,0:38:30.220
thanks for listening to the talk, I hope[br]it was useful and I hope some people can
0:38:30.220,0:38:40.500
solve some conflict in their communities.[br]Obviously, this entire talk was based on
0:38:40.500,0:38:48.990
my own experience, which hackerspace Gent[br]in Belgium. And so your mileage may vary.
0:38:48.990,0:38:53.500
This worked for us. This worked very well[br]for us. Every time we tried it, it
0:38:53.500,0:39:02.100
actually worked. But tweak it, make it[br]your own, make it so it works for your
0:39:02.100,0:39:08.790
community.[br]My name is Merlijn Sebrechts. I'm from
0:39:08.790,0:39:13.650
hackerspace Gent in Belgium. If you want[br]to know how to build a community of
0:39:13.650,0:39:19.950
equals, go to hackerspace.design and read[br]the hackerspace blueprint. And it also has
0:39:19.950,0:39:28.840
links to other talks I did about doocracy.[br]And then finally, this talk was partly
0:39:28.840,0:39:36.340
inspired by a video by Jono Bacon: "A new[br]way to look at conflict resolution." And
0:39:36.340,0:39:45.220
surprisingly, I think a few months ago he[br]released that video and surprisingly, the
0:39:45.220,0:39:51.110
process that he used in professional[br]organizations and companies to do conflict
0:39:51.110,0:39:58.690
resolution looks a lot like the private[br]talk pattern. Jono Bacon was the former
0:39:58.690,0:40:05.000
community manager of the Ubuntu Linux[br]project. And so he's a very experienced
0:40:05.000,0:40:12.860
person and knows a lot about how to build[br]communities. So if there are any
0:40:12.860,0:40:18.680
questions, let's hear it on.[br]Herald: OK, thank you for your talk. There
0:40:18.680,0:40:24.160
are indeed many questions, and the first[br]is you've mentioned repeatedly that this
0:40:24.160,0:40:29.400
is, of course, based on your own personal[br]experience. But, what do you think that
0:40:29.400,0:40:33.980
this model of something like it could also[br]work on a larger level, on a perhaps
0:40:33.980,0:40:46.060
regional or even super regional scale?[br]Merlijn Sebrechts: Are you ... I am I'm
0:40:46.060,0:40:52.040
going to interpret that question as like[br]having having different countries solving
0:40:52.040,0:41:03.180
conflict between different countries. I'm[br]not sure. I'm not sure because this matter
0:41:03.180,0:41:07.660
to specifically for interpersonal[br]conflict, conflict between different
0:41:07.660,0:41:19.160
people, although the idea of finding the[br]root cause is still very useful. I'm not
0:41:19.160,0:41:28.210
sure if it's possible because you can't[br]talk to a country as an individual. The
0:41:28.210,0:41:33.910
country is composed of many different[br]people, and so it is the total behavior of
0:41:33.910,0:41:42.960
this country is some emerges from the[br]behavior of all the individuals. And it's
0:41:42.960,0:41:46.580
very, very hard to find a single[br]individual that you can talk to that
0:41:46.580,0:41:51.670
represents this total group.[br]Herald: I'm not sure if the question was
0:41:51.670,0:41:57.200
actually meant that way. If it wasn't,[br]please write it again in the chat and I'll
0:41:57.200,0:42:02.500
ask it again in a more specific way. And[br]the next question is, what if we don't
0:42:02.500,0:42:11.520
have a common basis for such a system[br]anymore and we cannot start with personal
0:42:11.520,0:42:15.921
conversations anymore? Because just[br]letting things implode and then start
0:42:15.921,0:42:20.290
rebuilding everything from scratch is[br]probably usually not an option. So would
0:42:20.290,0:42:24.500
you have any ideas on[br]how one could proceed then?
0:42:24.500,0:42:34.220
Merlijn Sebrechts: I'm also not a big fan[br]of starting completely new. What we did is
0:42:34.220,0:42:41.030
that we actually didn't start from zero.[br]We during the hackerspace workshops, we
0:42:41.030,0:42:47.850
started from the the system that we had[br]and we started to think about what do we
0:42:47.850,0:42:51.860
like about the current system and what do[br]we dislike about the current system. And
0:42:51.860,0:42:57.460
we started to gradually change it. And[br]throughout the years with gradual changes
0:42:57.460,0:43:04.170
and by keep having these having the[br]hackerspace workshops every single time,
0:43:04.170,0:43:09.820
and we encountered issues, we were able to[br]gradually change and improve our
0:43:09.820,0:43:17.370
community. So even though, like the big[br]implosion happened in 2014, the big
0:43:17.370,0:43:22.960
resurgence didn't happen at once. It[br]happened over the course of a few years
0:43:22.960,0:43:28.220
and it happened by slightly improving it[br]and slightly changing the system every
0:43:28.220,0:43:34.830
every year and took a very long time in[br]order to to make that complete change. So
0:43:34.830,0:43:43.540
I would my concrete advice is to start[br]doing workshops in order to fix the
0:43:43.540,0:43:47.910
system, in order to fix your community,[br]start doing workshops and see what comes
0:43:47.910,0:43:53.290
out of those workshops.[br]Herald: OK, so at least hope is not lost,
0:43:53.290,0:43:59.280
I guess, even if it can be difficult. And[br]then the next question is, isn't it a
0:43:59.280,0:44:03.950
problem that you mentioned always[br]identifying a root cause of a problem?
0:44:03.950,0:44:08.620
What do you do if the cause of a root[br]problem is somehow subjective and cannot
0:44:08.620,0:44:16.400
be agreed upon? What should one do then?[br]Merlijn Sebrechts: I think there always
0:44:16.400,0:44:22.890
needs to be some common base. And in our[br]hackerspace, the common base is that the
0:44:22.890,0:44:28.390
hackerspace itself and the hackerspace[br]community is the thing that we need to
0:44:28.390,0:44:37.290
protect. And so if there is ambiguity of[br]the cause, the cause of the conflict and
0:44:37.290,0:44:42.720
we simply start to look at what behavior[br]is advantageous to our hackerspace and
0:44:42.720,0:44:48.690
what behavior isn't. And we use that as[br]the common ground and we start to build
0:44:48.690,0:44:58.110
from there depending on what the goal is[br]of your community. The common base will be
0:44:58.110,0:45:03.770
different, but I think in every community[br]there will be this common base, even if
0:45:03.770,0:45:09.000
the common base is simply that it's the[br]existence of the community is the thing
0:45:09.000,0:45:13.030
that everybody wants.[br]Herald: OK, then, thank you again for your
0:45:13.030,0:45:16.870
great talk. There is one last question,[br]which is someone wanting to see the cat
0:45:16.870,0:45:19.760
again.[br]Merlijn Sebrechts: The what?
0:45:19.760,0:45:24.510
Herald: The cat.[br]Merlijn Sebrechts: They're sadly not
0:45:24.510,0:45:32.180
anymore. It seems they've gone downstairs.[br]Herald: OK. That's all we have is the
0:45:32.180,0:45:39.340
waving cat in my screen, which is. We'll[br]have to make do. OK, thank you for your
0:45:39.340,0:45:45.230
talk and, have fun at the remote chaos[br]experience alone and everyone watching
0:45:45.230,0:45:52.160
this. Of course, this was our last talk[br]for today. We'll see you again tomorrow.
0:45:52.160,0:45:56.150
Until then. And happy hacking.
0:45:56.150,0:46:02.190
postroll music
0:46:02.190,0:46:23.989
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