Hello.
Hi there.
I am Julia Clark Kennedy, and I’m one of the BDA outreach workers.
Could you introduce yourself please?
I am Lisa Karlsson. Thank you for inviting me to come and talk to you.
Welcome and thank you.
I want to chat about something that relates to the BSL (Scotland) Act 2015,
under the strand of education. Can you tell us a bit about yourself
and your university course?
Sure, I am currently at university studying to become a social worker
on a BA honours course. I am in my final year and should graduate this June.
Altogether I have been studying for five years.
Wow. Very impressive. Well done you!
Thank you.
I was just wondering, thinking back to the start of your university days,
did you feel that the journey ahead of you would be an easy one?
Or were you anticipating difficulties in terms of access as a Deaf person?
A bit of both really. On the one hand, I thought some things would be difficult,
but on the other hand, there were things I was not worried about,
for example, I was very motivated to study the subject and was really keen
to become a social worker, so I wasn’t worried about that.
I did anticipate that there would be barriers for me as a Deaf person.
Going back to the beginning, I started with an HNC at college.
Interpreters were provided there and that worked pretty well.
The only gripe I had really was that the college picked their own interpreters,
so I did not get to express a preference for who I wanted to work with.
I did have my own preferred interpreters but had to work with the interpreters the
college supplied and that was difficult at times.
I’m guessing you wanted to work with people who are familiar with your
signing and the course content?
Exactly. People who I had already worked with and gelled well with.
I ended up with lots of different people who were brought in by the college and
that was quite a struggle at times, but it wasn’t awful.
I did try explaining that it would be better if I could choose my own interpreters,
people I knew who could meet my requirements, but the college would only
agree to me picking one and they chose the other one.
I’m not sure why they decided that. That was how things were at the start.
The BSL (Scotland) Act 2015 has been useful. I was able to use the legislation to push
for my rights, since my language was now a recognised language.
After I explained why I felt it was important, they did agree to me picking one interpreter.
And that was my first year.
And then you went on to university. How was it there? Was it better than college?
Or did you face the same difficulties?
It was much better at university in my view, because university offers a higher
standard of education. The HNC course, which I did really enjoy, was my first
experience of studying in a hearing environment. Previously I had been to a Deaf college,
so this was the first time I had studied alongside hearing students.
It was the first time I had encountered those barriers to learning.
By the time I got to university I had already been through a year’s experience
at college, so I was prepared. I started university in September 2019,
but attended a meeting prior to starting, with the lecturers.
I was the only Deaf person there and I felt very anxious.
Did you have an interpreter?
Yes, yes there was an interpreter there. It was an interesting meeting, but I could
see that some of the lecturers were a little unsure of me, they didn’t know what to
make of me as a Deaf person.
Do you think they were concerned whether you could do the course?
I can’t say for sure, but maybe, yes. I told them that I understood the
social work degree was obviously a professional course and I was aware of
the expectations, and it was the profession that I wanted to get into.
They had already offered me a place, so I was definitely going to be coming.
I suggested that they arrange for some Deaf awareness training before I started,
well on my first day actually, so that my classmates could attend it too.
I felt that would mean there was less chance of being singled out or avoided
and it would reduce the chance of discrimination.
They were agreeable to that, and because of the BSL (Scotland) Act,
which recognises my language and my rights as a Deaf person to interpreters
and equal access, etc., they were agreeable to doing this. I think they were
just unsure how I would get on. We agreed that I would see how my first year went,
and if it was too much of a struggle, we would discuss whether I would stay
or change to another course. I thought that was fair enough. I also had some
some uncertainty if I am honest about my ability to cope with the course.
I figured we would just see how it went.
So, on my first day I arrived and a Deaf awareness trainer came in to deliver
the training. I struggled with that a bit actually, because previously I had worked
in the University as a BSL tutor and Deaf awareness trainer, but this time
I was on the receiving end, as a student. I just had to sit there and keep quiet and
let the tutor get on with it. It went well though and I felt that it offered me some
level of support. I navigated my first year successfully. There were struggles.
For example, on the Social Work course, you have to choose some elective modules.
I opted for an education module because I figured if I liked it, perhaps I could change
tack and become a teacher. Anyway, I didn’t like it. Absolutely hated it. I realised it really
wasn’t for me. The lecturer for that module was older and not very Deaf aware at all.
They had not participated in the Deaf awareness training because the
module sat as part of a different course in another department.
One day in class, I was there with my two interpreters and the lecturer came
over to talk to the student sitting next to me. One of my interpreters
came over to interpret their conversation, and the lecturer told them to stop signing
because it was a private conversation. I was rather taken aback by this.
It was my first experience of discrimination, so I responded, saying that if it was a private
conversation, it might be better if they took it into the hallway when nobody
could overhear them. There were obviously other students around who were within
listening distance, but they were not asked to move.
I said it was not right to exclude me, but they repeated their request for the
interpreter to stop signing and ask the interpreter to move away.
I was raging by this point, so when the class finished, I approached the lecturer
again and said that it was not okay to do that, and that it was discriminatory.
I felt I had to challenge their behaviour. They can’t just block my interpretation
of what is being said when other students have access to it. So that was my first
negative experience.
It's good that you were able to be assertive though.
I was assertive, but I had to be. I had to challenge that point and
just hold onto it. It was discrimination and I was right to challenge it.
I was not aggressive or rude but saw it more as an educational opportunity,
a learning point for them to understand it really was not something they should
ever do. Anyway, during that first year there were a few other instances, but I did feel
that the University had my back and was supportive.
How did you use the BSL (Scotland) Act 2015? How did you use it to get
people to change their practice and behaviour and accept their responsibilities?
Really, the BSL Act required education centres have to have BSL plans which
they have to follow, which helped. Also, I feel that the Act protects me,
it acts as a barrier. Before we had it, there was nothing, but now I have
something to direct people to. I can point out the Act and highlight
the fact that I have language rights under the Act. I have the right to
an interpreter, and you can’t take that away; the same with a notetaker,
because that’s what the Act says. When I have brought up the Act defence
of my rights, often people have never heard of it, so I have had to educate them.
And these are social workers were talking about, people who work within
the Deaf community. They should know about this, and often they don’t, although
they are interested. The BSL (Scotland) Act 2015 is well known within the University now,
because I have made sure that everybody is aware of it.
Do you feel that the university now has improved because of you?
Well really, the university is a big place with lots of different departments so
it’s a lot of work to get everybody up to peed on, so I would not say there has
been a 100% improvement across-the-board. That would be too difficult to achieve because
there are always new members of staff being recruited. There is a lot
of staff turnover. I would say though that over the four years I have
been at university I have spent considerable time educating people
about the BSL Act. I had to do the same when I was on placement.
I had two placements, which were important because they prove my fitness
to practice as a social worker. At my first placement, I pushed for Deaf awareness
awareness training when I started. I wanted people to understand that they
could trust that I was up to the job. I had an interpreter with me so had
access to communication and was able to understand everything just fine.
I wanted them to understand that my brain works fine, and I am capable of
doing the job with appropriate adjustments. My second placement was
more statutory, involving councils and government at quite a high level.
The department was very busy and work had to be turned over quickly.
I felt that my first placement, which was within the third sector, was much more
laid-back than the second placement. I had supervisors in both places, but in
my second placement, supervision was much less frequent. The second placement was
the final opportunity for me to show my fitness to practice. I was there for
six months through the summer last year and I confess I was nervous. I explained
that I was Deaf and would be working with an interpreter. I knew that I would
have to prepare them for that. On my first placement, my supervisior
informed my case clients that I was Deaf and asked if they were prepared to work
with me or not, so they were given a choice and entered into a voluntary
voluntary agreement to work with me if they chose to do so. On the second placement,
this did not happen. Cases were allocated to me whether people liked it or not.
That gave me a taste of how I would manage in the real world.
Before I made first contact with any cases I would contact them to inform
them I was Deaf, and would be attending with an interpreter.
I wanted to be open about this and invite any questions beforehand.
It was really difficult, but I feel that the first few weeks were the hardest and
then it became easier, and I was more able to just get on with it fairly quickly.
You started from scratch really, in terms of educating those who you were working with.
I can understand how it must have been difficult at the start, particularly given that
you were trying to educate professionals, lecturers, teachers, social workers and so on.
I would imagine that the next Deaf student on that course will definitely find things a
bit easier. I’m sure you’ve opened a lot of doors for them.
Well it’s lucky for them really. It’s nice that something positive has come from this.
I learned a lot from my time at university, but I think the university learnt a lot from me too.
There was definitely a collaboration. When I finish my dissertation in April,
the university has asked me to work with them on a new project for improving BSL access.
There is another Deaf student on the Social Work course now so it’s really
positive that Deaf people feel able to come and train here.
I do feel like I have opened a lot of doors as you say, during my time here.
It’s good that might help others who follow. I do hope though that as lecturers and
students are replaced with new faces that the university does not go back to square one.
I hope that the information they have learned from me will stay and become embedded.
It’s been really lovely talking to you Lisa. Thank you so much for coming.
Such an inspirational story. You’ve done amazingly well. Congratulations.
Thank you.
Thank you. Goodbye.