[Script Info]
Title: 
[Events]
Format: Layer, Start, End, Style, Name, MarginL, MarginR, MarginV, Effect, Text
Dialogue: 0,0:00:05.14,0:00:06.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Hello!
Dialogue: 0,0:00:06.00,0:00:07.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And welcome everybody.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:07.88,0:00:09.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,My name is Danielle Ainsley
Dialogue: 0,0:00:09.21,0:00:12.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and on behalf of Woollahra, Randwick\Nand Waverly Libraries
Dialogue: 0,0:00:12.52,0:00:15.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's a pleasure to have you all joining us\Nthis evening.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:15.79,0:00:18.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's also a pleasure to welcome both
Dialogue: 0,0:00:18.32,0:00:21.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Charlotte Wood and Michela Kalowski\Nas well.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:21.25,0:00:23.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, before we get started, I do want to \Nacknowledge
Dialogue: 0,0:00:23.75,0:00:27.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the traditional owners of the land on\Nwhich I currently stand
Dialogue: 0,0:00:27.46,0:00:29.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Gadigal and Birrabirragal people
Dialogue: 0,0:00:29.73,0:00:31.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the Eora nation
Dialogue: 0,0:00:31.21,0:00:35.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and pay my respects to elders past,\Npresent and emerging.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:35.25,0:00:37.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's also a pleasure to welcome both
Dialogue: 0,0:00:37.46,0:00:40.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Michaela Kalowski and Charlotte tonight.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:40.48,0:00:43.100,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So Michaela is an interviewer, moderator\Nand presenter.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:43.100,0:00:46.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,She's interviewed writers and thinkers
Dialogue: 0,0:00:46.40,0:00:49.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from the worlds of arts, science and\Npolitics.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:49.01,0:00:51.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And recent highlights include Margaret\NAtwood,
Dialogue: 0,0:00:51.47,0:00:54.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Trent Dalton, Stan Grant,\Nand Richard Fidler.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:54.88,0:00:57.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,She has conducted radio interviews for ABC
Dialogue: 0,0:00:57.80,0:01:01.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and in June last year curated The Big\NWeekend of Books,
Dialogue: 0,0:01:01.02,0:01:04.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,ABC Radio National's first ever on air
Dialogue: 0,0:01:04.01,0:01:05.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Writers' Festival.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:05.44,0:01:07.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now Michaela regularly facilitates
Dialogue: 0,0:01:07.23,0:01:10.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,panels and conducts interviews at writers'\Nfestivals
Dialogue: 0,0:01:10.34,0:01:13.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,universities and community organizations\Nas well.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:13.49,0:01:16.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, Charlotte is an award winning author
Dialogue: 0,0:01:16.14,0:01:18.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of 6 novels and 2 non-fiction books
Dialogue: 0,0:01:18.42,0:01:21.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I'm sure there's more there that\NI haven't even...
Dialogue: 0,0:01:21.13,0:01:22.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,haven't even counted.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:22.84,0:01:26.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,She has won the Stella Prize, the Prime\NMinister's Literary Award,
Dialogue: 0,0:01:27.24,0:01:29.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Indie Book of the Year
Dialogue: 0,0:01:29.04,0:01:30.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and most recently
Dialogue: 0,0:01:30.21,0:01:32.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Literary Fiction Book of the Year
Dialogue: 0,0:01:32.53,0:01:35.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the Australian Book Industry Awards.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:35.08,0:01:37.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Her most recent book is this one,
Dialogue: 0,0:01:37.87,0:01:39.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which I have right next to me, \Nthere we go.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:39.93,0:01:43.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"The Luminous Solution: Creativity,\NResilience and the Inner Life".
Dialogue: 0,0:01:44.16,0:01:47.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And we have the pleasure of hearing more\Nabout that tonight.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:47.53,0:01:50.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, hand it over to Michaela.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:54.86,0:01:56.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Thank you Danielle.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:56.12,0:01:58.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's very very lovely to be here with\Neveryone this evening.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:58.48,0:02:00.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I do always wish we could be together\Nin person
Dialogue: 0,0:02:00.74,0:02:03.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but it's lovely wherever you are around\Nthe country.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:03.24,0:02:05.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's great to be with you and wonderful
Dialogue: 0,0:02:05.10,0:02:07.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to be in conversation with Charlotte Wood.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:07.39,0:02:10.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I wanted to start by saying that this book
Dialogue: 0,0:02:10.43,0:02:12.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is a really beautiful kind of hybrid of\Nthings.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:13.18,0:02:15.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's a book that explores really what it
Dialogue: 0,0:02:15.12,0:02:17.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,means to be a writer or to create
Dialogue: 0,0:02:17.56,0:02:20.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and woven through the book are also life\Nlessons,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:20.80,0:02:23.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,insights that Charlotte came to while \Nstudying craft
Dialogue: 0,0:02:23.43,0:02:27.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or talking to other writers and thinking\Nabout creativity.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:27.08,0:02:28.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And tonight I wanted to ask her about
Dialogue: 0,0:02:28.85,0:02:30.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,all of these 3 things.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:30.22,0:02:32.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Some of the discussion will be about those\Nlife lessons,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:32.86,0:02:34.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,she learnt from writing, others will be
Dialogue: 0,0:02:34.76,0:02:36.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,questions about her writing life
Dialogue: 0,0:02:36.30,0:02:38.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the creative lives of others.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:38.05,0:02:39.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I'll also speak with her about
Dialogue: 0,0:02:39.71,0:02:42.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,how ideas that relate to creativity can
Dialogue: 0,0:02:42.09,0:02:44.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,help the rest of us navigate our lives.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:44.36,0:02:45.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Charlotte, welcome.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:45.96,0:02:48.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Thank you so much Michaela.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:48.03,0:02:50.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And thank you everyone for coming on this
Dialogue: 0,0:02:50.35,0:02:52.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Friday night, which seems to me a big
Dialogue: 0,0:02:52.46,0:02:55.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sacrifice for you, but it's a great joy\Nfor me.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:55.64,0:02:57.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I'll just say that I'm joining you\Nfrom
Dialogue: 0,0:02:58.43,0:03:02.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Bullanaming, the area of Sydney that's
Dialogue: 0,0:03:03.26,0:03:05.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,known as Marrickville now.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:05.51,0:03:08.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I pay my respects to their \Nelders of course.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:08.56,0:03:10.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Wonderful.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:10.13,0:03:12.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I wanted to start, like I said to you\Nbefore
Dialogue: 0,0:03:12.22,0:03:13.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I promise it's not a lazy question,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:13.90,0:03:17.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but it's always better from the.. \Nfrom the mouth of the author herself,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:17.29,0:03:17.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if you could talk..
Dialogue: 0,0:03:17.98,0:03:19.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If you could tell us just a little bit for
Dialogue: 0,0:03:19.41,0:03:20.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people who haven't read \N"The Luminous Solution"
Dialogue: 0,0:03:20.89,0:03:24.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because it's only just been, you know, \Nbrought in to the world.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:24.15,0:03:26.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What.. what you explore in the book?
Dialogue: 0,0:03:26.64,0:03:28.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And who it is for?
Dialogue: 0,0:03:29.48,0:03:33.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Thank you. It is a book about sort of
Dialogue: 0,0:03:33.48,0:03:37.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the nature and texture of creativity\NI suppose.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:37.28,0:03:40.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Of course, from my own perspective,\Nprimarily.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:40.89,0:03:43.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But also from what I've observed of other
Dialogue: 0,0:03:43.84,0:03:46.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people's creative impulse over the..
Dialogue: 0,0:03:47.06,0:03:50.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I keep saying 20 years, but I think it's\Nactually 30 years
Dialogue: 0,0:03:50.37,0:03:52.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I've been writing books.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:52.67,0:03:55.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I've always really been fascinated\Nby the creative process
Dialogue: 0,0:03:55.83,0:03:59.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the creative impulse and why people\Nhave it and how it works.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:59.79,0:04:02.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And with this book I wanted to sort of\Nbring together
Dialogue: 0,0:04:02.86,0:04:05.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,all the scattered thoughts that I'd had
Dialogue: 0,0:04:05.68,0:04:07.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,over many many years.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:07.43,0:04:09.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Sometimes I'd written about it,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:09.56,0:04:12.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,other times I'd just had jottings in my\Nnotebook.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:14.11,0:04:16.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I wanted to bring these thoughts together
Dialogue: 0,0:04:16.17,0:04:19.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to see if they formed any sort of
Dialogue: 0,0:04:19.20,0:04:21.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,coherent idea
Dialogue: 0,0:04:21.35,0:04:23.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but also to see what a discussion of
Dialogue: 0,0:04:24.05,0:04:26.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,creativity in general might have to offer
Dialogue: 0,0:04:26.74,0:04:29.100,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a wider readership than just writers or\Nartists.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:29.100,0:04:33.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because I do feel very, maybe romantically
Dialogue: 0,0:04:34.19,0:04:37.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,strongly about the
Dialogue: 0,0:04:38.53,0:04:42.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the pleasures and the satisfactions and\Nthe deep human joy of...
Dialogue: 0,0:04:43.92,0:04:45.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that comes from making something
Dialogue: 0,0:04:45.73,0:04:48.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that wasn't there before you made it.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:48.16,0:04:49.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that might be making a cake,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:49.77,0:04:51.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it might be making a garden,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:51.74,0:04:55.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it might be knitting, it might be singing\Nin a choir.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:55.51,0:04:58.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I just think there's something really\Nfundamental in us
Dialogue: 0,0:04:58.30,0:05:01.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that... that... that gets something very\Nprofound
Dialogue: 0,0:05:01.83,0:05:05.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,out of that creative expression.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:05.22,0:05:07.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the process even more than \Nthe outcome.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:08.54,0:05:11.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I wanted to look at that in lots of\Ndifferent ways
Dialogue: 0,0:05:11.62,0:05:13.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from.. from my years of writing and then
Dialogue: 0,0:05:13.72,0:05:16.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,looking at increasingly
Dialogue: 0,0:05:17.76,0:05:20.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sort of interested in the cross \Npollination
Dialogue: 0,0:05:20.82,0:05:22.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that comes from the other art forms,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:22.57,0:05:25.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,other.. other fields of expertise\Naltogether.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:28.39,0:05:31.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I wanted to ask it, when you're at the..
Dialogue: 0,0:05:31.12,0:05:32.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,very at the beginning of the book
Dialogue: 0,0:05:32.70,0:05:35.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you do start with the first lockdown last\Nyear.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:35.04,0:05:37.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The first chapter begins and you talk\Nabout
Dialogue: 0,0:05:37.06,0:05:38.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,how your garden is in disrepair and maybe
Dialogue: 0,0:05:38.78,0:05:41.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the garden reflects your inner state.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:41.31,0:05:42.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But you talk about your inner state,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:42.73,0:05:45.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you talk about your inner life as a writer\Nwhich I wanted to ask you about.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:45.85,0:05:47.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But you talk about the inner life \Ngenerally.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:47.59,0:05:49.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You're sort of pondering that.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:49.00,0:05:50.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I.. The question you.. you propose is
Dialogue: 0,0:05:50.99,0:05:53.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what might feed a prosperous inner life.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:53.83,0:05:55.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I wondered if you could describe
Dialogue: 0,0:05:56.13,0:05:58.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the elements of rich inner life in your\Nexperience?
Dialogue: 0,0:06:01.20,0:06:04.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean... it sort of when I started\Nwriting about the inner life
Dialogue: 0,0:06:04.97,0:06:07.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and then I thought: What is it anyway?
Dialogue: 0,0:06:07.54,0:06:10.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What does mean to have an inner life?
Dialogue: 0,0:06:10.37,0:06:14.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Or a rich inner life? Or sort of\Ninteresting inner life?
Dialogue: 0,0:06:15.15,0:06:17.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I thought over time that maybe
Dialogue: 0,0:06:18.08,0:06:20.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the inner life could be described as
Dialogue: 0,0:06:20.94,0:06:23.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a sense of your mind as a place to go to
Dialogue: 0,0:06:23.86,0:06:26.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and a place where you can develop
Dialogue: 0,0:06:26.40,0:06:29.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,your own original thoughts and feelings
Dialogue: 0,0:06:29.46,0:06:31.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about things without having everything
Dialogue: 0,0:06:31.28,0:06:33.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,fed to you from the outside world.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:33.91,0:06:37.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And.. and I said it in that piece\NFertile Ground that..
Dialogue: 0,0:06:37.16,0:06:39.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is the first chapter of the book
Dialogue: 0,0:06:39.94,0:06:43.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that there are things that threaten
Dialogue: 0,0:06:44.26,0:06:47.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a sort of rich inner life and things that\Nnourish it.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:48.36,0:06:50.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that for writers and artists
Dialogue: 0,0:06:50.40,0:06:52.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the inner life is really inseparable from\Nour work.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:52.83,0:06:54.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Sort of where we live, you know in our
Dialogue: 0,0:06:54.91,0:06:57.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,professional, while we're making our work.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:58.07,0:07:01.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, you know I was looking at what...
Dialogue: 0,0:07:01.43,0:07:03.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and what's written as you say at the
Dialogue: 0,0:07:03.47,0:07:06.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sort of, I think it was about 3 weeks\Ninto the first lockdown
Dialogue: 0,0:07:07.89,0:07:10.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where I was just in a state of panic.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:10.94,0:07:12.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I don't know about everybody else,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:12.68,0:07:15.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but you know I see myself as a fairly calm
Dialogue: 0,0:07:15.50,0:07:16.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and rational person,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:16.79,0:07:19.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but I was not calm or rational then.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:19.07,0:07:21.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I was in that sense of just...
Dialogue: 0,0:07:23.28,0:07:26.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Just sort of not being able to focus\Nproperly,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:26.64,0:07:28.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not being able to even really makes sense
Dialogue: 0,0:07:28.92,0:07:29.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of what was happening.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:29.99,0:07:32.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because none of us knew it was such a
Dialogue: 0,0:07:32.95,0:07:36.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,world shattering event that we were\Nfacing.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:36.28,0:07:37.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know, turned out that for me,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:37.92,0:07:41.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,my life was completely fine, but back then
Dialogue: 0,0:07:41.16,0:07:43.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I didn't know that was going to be\Nthe case.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:44.54,0:07:46.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I realized that I, I'd sort of
Dialogue: 0,0:07:46.96,0:07:48.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in response that I'd been rushing around
Dialogue: 0,0:07:48.89,0:07:51.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,just sort of filling myself up with things
Dialogue: 0,0:07:51.52,0:07:53.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that I thought were sort of meaningful.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:53.38,0:07:57.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Like, you know yoga and books and films\Nand...
Dialogue: 0,0:07:58.17,0:08:00.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I didn't quite get to sourdough bread\Nmaking
Dialogue: 0,0:08:00.56,0:08:02.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but I did a lot of cooking.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:02.16,0:08:03.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Banana bread maybe?
Dialogue: 0,0:08:04.47,0:08:06.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm now into, massively into making \Nbiscuits,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:06.62,0:08:11.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is a terrible thing really because\Nthen I had to eat them all.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:11.43,0:08:15.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But, it was that sense of, well I might be
Dialogue: 0,0:08:15.09,0:08:17.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,doing all these things that we see as\Nmeaningful,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:17.46,0:08:19.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but I still just cramming them in.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:19.37,0:08:21.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I may as well be just eating junk food
Dialogue: 0,0:08:21.29,0:08:25.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the way that I'm sort of taking\Nthese things into myself.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:25.82,0:08:27.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I just sat up here where I thought
Dialogue: 0,0:08:27.58,0:08:30.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I just need to stop. Just still.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:30.44,0:08:32.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Go quiet. Settle down.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:33.70,0:08:36.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Figure out what I actually need,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:36.41,0:08:41.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what I want and how to just go back to\Na sense of, sort of
Dialogue: 0,0:08:42.52,0:08:43.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,some kind of
Dialogue: 0,0:08:44.21,0:08:46.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the peacefulness that actually was
Dialogue: 0,0:08:46.18,0:08:49.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,available to me if I chose to have it.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:49.60,0:08:51.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So then I was looking at, well what\Nthreatens
Dialogue: 0,0:08:52.04,0:08:56.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,my creativity which to me is inseparable\Nfrom me in an inner life
Dialogue: 0,0:08:56.04,0:08:58.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,an what nourishes it.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:59.20,0:09:02.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I guess the nourishment is always
Dialogue: 0,0:09:02.40,0:09:04.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I have to keep re-learning this,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:04.20,0:09:07.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is extremely annoying but it just\Nseems to be the way it is.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:07.41,0:09:09.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Very comforting for us as readers,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:09.07,0:09:10.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm like "She's been writing for 30 years
Dialogue: 0,0:09:10.65,0:09:13.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and she keeps having to re-learn this\Nlesson, I'm fine".
Dialogue: 0,0:09:13.26,0:09:16.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yeah, I have no idea, what I'm doing 90%\Nof the time,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:16.69,0:09:21.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but... it, the nourishing stuff\Nis firstly
Dialogue: 0,0:09:21.27,0:09:26.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,making your decision to choose to feed\Nthat inner life.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:27.08,0:09:30.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then secondly saying, well what is\Nnourishment and what is not.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:30.74,0:09:33.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So what is not nourishment is endless
Dialogue: 0,0:09:33.88,0:09:37.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,indiscriminate time on the internet,\Non my phone.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:37.82,0:09:41.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I fall into that trap, you know as\Neasily as anybody,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:41.53,0:09:44.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is sort of probably a bit shaming\Nto admit
Dialogue: 0,0:09:44.57,0:09:47.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for a writer who is supposed to be very
Dialogue: 0,0:09:47.28,0:09:49.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean, I think there was a sense last\Nyear that
Dialogue: 0,0:09:49.63,0:09:51.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we writers should be able to just
Dialogue: 0,0:09:51.62,0:09:53.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,slot back into our normal working routine
Dialogue: 0,0:09:53.78,0:09:55.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because this is where we live, you know,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:55.91,0:09:57.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I work at home all the time.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:57.38,0:10:00.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I didn't have children to home school.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:00.10,0:10:01.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I didn't actually have any...
Dialogue: 0,0:10:02.53,0:10:04.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There was nothing rational about the
Dialogue: 0,0:10:04.32,0:10:06.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,disruption that happened to me.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:06.03,0:10:10.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Whereas other people, their lives were\Nreally turned upside down.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:10.17,0:10:15.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And yet, still I, I found it so difficult\Nto focus.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:15.62,0:10:17.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I went back to the very basic things,
Dialogue: 0,0:10:17.93,0:10:22.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is orderly physical world.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:22.19,0:10:23.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know, house that's sort of under
Dialogue: 0,0:10:23.91,0:10:26.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,some sort of control mess-wise.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:26.39,0:10:27.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Food in the fridge.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:27.96,0:10:29.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Exercise.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:29.24,0:10:31.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Going to bed early. Getting up early.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:31.58,0:10:33.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Eating decently etc.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:35.52,0:10:39.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And really, those physical things are\Nreally important
Dialogue: 0,0:10:39.00,0:10:43.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to nourish and.. what I would call a rich
Dialogue: 0,0:10:44.75,0:10:47.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,inner... inner world, inner life.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:48.63,0:10:51.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the.. the things that threaten it are
Dialogue: 0,0:10:52.61,0:10:55.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,just sort of feeding rubbish into my mind,\NI guess.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:56.04,0:10:58.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that means, all you know that sort of
Dialogue: 0,0:10:58.02,0:11:01.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,just doom scrolling, too much current\Naffairs and news,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:01.56,0:11:02.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,too much television,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:04.01,0:11:07.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,even sort of reading in that cramming\Nsort of way,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:07.80,0:11:10.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,thinking "Oh, I've got a.. my "to be read\Npile" is... you know,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:10.77,0:11:14.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,gotta be as cool and interesting as other\Npeople's on Instagram.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:14.30,0:11:18.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, just really settling right down and\Nthinking
Dialogue: 0,0:11:18.18,0:11:20.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"What do I want in my mind?"
Dialogue: 0,0:11:20.82,0:11:23.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"And what do I want out of my mind?"
Dialogue: 0,0:11:23.01,0:11:26.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And in a way, I think it's almost as\Nsimple as that.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:26.64,0:11:28.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Deciding that you have choices about
Dialogue: 0,0:11:28.43,0:11:31.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what goes into your inner life and what\Nyou keep out.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:32.66,0:11:35.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's a beautiful description, a really\Npowerful description.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:35.53,0:11:37.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,When it.. throughout the book and it's
Dialogue: 0,0:11:37.36,0:11:40.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,an idea you introduced that early on,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:40.67,0:11:43.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is this tussle we feel between the inner\Nlife
Dialogue: 0,0:11:43.29,0:11:47.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the modern life but also consumerist\Nlife, a capitalist life
Dialogue: 0,0:11:47.55,0:11:52.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that wants us to keep on eating yoga\Nclasses like we are just at a buffet
Dialogue: 0,0:11:52.38,0:11:53.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and we just can't stop.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:53.48,0:11:55.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Who want us just to churn through, through\Ncontent.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:55.86,0:11:57.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yes, because then we have to go and buy
Dialogue: 0,0:11:57.74,0:11:59.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,yoga mats and yoga clothes... and...
Dialogue: 0,0:12:00.77,0:12:02.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yoga hairbands, yoga masks..
Dialogue: 0,0:12:02.37,0:12:06.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yoga hairbands. And then think, "Oh, \Nactually yoga is not quite enough.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:06.49,0:12:08.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I should do some pilates and yoga."
Dialogue: 0,0:12:08.18,0:12:10.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And, you know. And I think I said in that\Nessay
Dialogue: 0,0:12:10.94,0:12:14.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that I think panic is.. is what capitalism
Dialogue: 0,0:12:14.04,0:12:15.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,loves best.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:15.03,0:12:18.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's just that, if we panic, then we just
Dialogue: 0,0:12:18.68,0:12:22.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,clutch at anything, you know, that we\Nthink will help.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:22.77,0:12:25.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And, you know, I have to keep saying,
Dialogue: 0,0:12:25.05,0:12:28.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I am, I am terrible with all of this, it's\Nnot...
Dialogue: 0,0:12:29.09,0:12:31.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So having written this book, you might
Dialogue: 0,0:12:31.04,0:12:33.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,think that I, you know, have a very
Dialogue: 0,0:12:33.63,0:12:35.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,anti-consumerist life.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:35.11,0:12:37.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I fall into all that crap as easily
Dialogue: 0,0:12:37.48,0:12:40.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as a next person, when I'm not being
Dialogue: 0,0:12:41.73,0:12:45.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,thoughtful about it really. It's as simple\Nas that.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:45.89,0:12:48.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I wanted to stay with some of these\Nkind of
Dialogue: 0,0:12:48.20,0:12:52.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,almost kind of bigger ideas of...\Nof insights you're thinking about
Dialogue: 0,0:12:52.04,0:12:54.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that.. that struck me as kind of\Nlife lessons.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:54.43,0:12:57.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,One that really intrigued me, \Nis in the book.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:57.11,0:13:01.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The idea of the... creative person\Nhas a vision
Dialogue: 0,0:13:01.11,0:13:02.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that they see in their mind.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:02.74,0:13:05.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Then they sit down to write it or they sit\Nto paint it
Dialogue: 0,0:13:05.27,0:13:06.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and it.. it evaporates.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:06.38,0:13:09.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's a beautiful description to use from\NVirginia Woolf's "To the Lighthouse".
Dialogue: 0,0:13:09.38,0:13:11.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the painter who has that experience.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:11.70,0:13:14.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I wondered about how you find ways
Dialogue: 0,0:13:14.15,0:13:15.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to translate your vision to the page.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:15.71,0:13:18.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And you write about that in a lot of\Ndetail in the book.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:18.08,0:13:20.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I wondered how... how might the rest \Nof us
Dialogue: 0,0:13:20.23,0:13:21.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,get more familiar with that relationship
Dialogue: 0,0:13:21.93,0:13:24.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,between an idea and how we bring it\Nto life.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:27.06,0:13:30.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yeah. I love the idea that people might
Dialogue: 0,0:13:30.59,0:13:35.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,start opening up a little to.. to the\Nuncertainty
Dialogue: 0,0:13:35.10,0:13:38.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that is central to the creative process.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:38.53,0:13:41.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because I think a lot of the time people\Nstart doing...
Dialogue: 0,0:13:41.24,0:13:44.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you know... they want to.. they want to \Nwrite their memoir
Dialogue: 0,0:13:44.01,0:13:46.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or they want to learn to play music
Dialogue: 0,0:13:46.23,0:13:48.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or you know.. write a screen play
Dialogue: 0,0:13:48.61,0:13:51.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or.. even knit or something.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:51.44,0:13:56.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And when it gets hard, which is all the\Ntime
Dialogue: 0,0:13:56.12,0:13:58.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and especially at the beginning,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:58.05,0:14:03.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think a lot of people think "Oh, what\NI'm producing here is... is terrible,
Dialogue: 0,0:14:03.38,0:14:07.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,therefore, I don't belong in this space.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:07.38,0:14:09.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know. "I... Therefore, I can't do \Nthis".
Dialogue: 0,0:14:10.17,0:14:13.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And what is absolutely, you know, at the\Nheart
Dialogue: 0,0:14:13.35,0:14:17.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of any creative endeavor is... is that\Nfailure
Dialogue: 0,0:14:17.19,0:14:21.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that is. It's, you know... I know there\Nare writer friends
Dialogue: 0,0:14:21.58,0:14:26.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,watching this and they will be, you know,\Nsadly nodding their heads.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:26.70,0:14:30.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That, that uncertainty, doubt, not\Nknowing,
Dialogue: 0,0:14:30.30,0:14:32.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,failing most of the time.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:33.70,0:14:38.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Living in a... in a... in a very \Nuncomfortable uncertainty
Dialogue: 0,0:14:39.16,0:14:42.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is actually, that's where artists live.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:42.11,0:14:44.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That's, that's what creativity is.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:45.45,0:14:49.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And you kind of have to go into uncertain\Nspace
Dialogue: 0,0:14:50.32,0:14:53.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in order to find something new and\Nsomething
Dialogue: 0,0:14:53.10,0:14:56.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that hasn't been done before in quite the\Nsame way.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:57.13,0:14:59.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And of course there are skills that you\Ncan learn.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:59.56,0:15:00.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So if you learn to knit...
Dialogue: 0,0:15:00.96,0:15:03.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I... I once was a very very bad knitter
Dialogue: 0,0:15:03.44,0:15:06.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and gave it away to stop offending the\Nworld
Dialogue: 0,0:15:06.92,0:15:08.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with my terrible creations.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:10.10,0:15:13.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But, you know, that's only... Because I \Ndidn't... I didn't want it enough.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:13.61,0:15:15.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think that's the other thing when
Dialogue: 0,0:15:15.89,0:15:19.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if you want to do something well, you have\Nto want it enough
Dialogue: 0,0:15:19.90,0:15:23.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to really commit to it, to learn\Nhow to do it.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:23.28,0:15:25.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so I feel like the idea of the \Napprenticeship
Dialogue: 0,0:15:27.21,0:15:30.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's a really good way to think about a\Ncreative life.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:30.24,0:15:35.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I feel like... So I've written 8 books,\N9 books now,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:36.39,0:15:39.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I feel like I'm just starting to get\Na handle on
Dialogue: 0,0:15:40.36,0:15:42.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,how to do some things.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:42.24,0:15:46.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I feel like I'm in this apprenticeship\Nforever.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:46.99,0:15:49.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I never feel that I know what I'm doing.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:49.90,0:15:51.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I never feel that...
Dialogue: 0,0:15:51.85,0:15:54.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know, I never write something down\Nthe first draft
Dialogue: 0,0:15:54.42,0:15:56.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and go "Ah, perfect!"
Dialogue: 0,0:15:57.00,0:15:58.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Never, never, never.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:59.03,0:16:02.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Sometimes, I think "Oh, I like that image
Dialogue: 0,0:16:02.02,0:16:04.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or there is something there that... that
Dialogue: 0,0:16:04.93,0:16:08.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,calls at me and interests me, it doesn't\Nmake any sense,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:09.70,0:16:13.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but now after all these years I recognize\Nthat as a good impulse.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:13.70,0:16:15.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I know to follow that.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:15.49,0:16:17.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And there's a chapter in the book,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:18.48,0:16:21.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which the subtitle is "Nine Creative Ways\Nto Think"
Dialogue: 0,0:16:21.68,0:16:25.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and... and it's one of those 9 methods of\Nthinking
Dialogue: 0,0:16:25.39,0:16:27.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is something called "heat seeking".
Dialogue: 0,0:16:27.82,0:16:31.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that "heat seeking" I feel like is\Nat the real heart of...
Dialogue: 0,0:16:31.82,0:16:35.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,certainly of my writing impulse.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:36.17,0:16:38.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And partly becoming a more experienced
Dialogue: 0,0:16:38.44,0:16:41.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,writer is just learning to... to obey that
Dialogue: 0,0:16:41.83,0:16:43.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,impulse to follow that heat.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:43.24,0:16:45.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Even when it doesn't make any sense
Dialogue: 0,0:16:45.04,0:16:46.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sometimes for years.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:46.36,0:16:49.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There might be some element of a book\Nthat you think
Dialogue: 0,0:16:49.76,0:16:52.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"I know this doesn't fit, but I still...
Dialogue: 0,0:16:52.19,0:16:54.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I just have this gut feeling that I want\Nit in there".
Dialogue: 0,0:16:55.21,0:16:57.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And now I know to trust that because
Dialogue: 0,0:16:57.45,0:17:02.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that's at a certain point it will become \Nclear what... why it's there.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:02.71,0:17:06.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And at a certain point the book will show\Nme how to write it.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:06.26,0:17:08.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But you have to really trust that.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:08.34,0:17:11.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it takes a while to learn that sort\Nof trust I think.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:12.06,0:17:13.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's wonderful.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:13.25,0:17:15.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Another thread that runs through the book
Dialogue: 0,0:17:15.25,0:17:18.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is about the difference between art and\Nartists.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:18.32,0:17:20.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I kept trying to think what the...
Dialogue: 0,0:17:20.55,0:17:23.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what the creativity is for somebody who\Nisn't creative.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:23.22,0:17:26.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know, for me I'm not a writer, I'm not\Na sculptor, I'm not a painter.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:26.45,0:17:28.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I wondered if it was like\Nthe difference between
Dialogue: 0,0:17:28.44,0:17:30.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,saying, you know "Am I my work"?
Dialogue: 0,0:17:30.62,0:17:32.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I wondered if you could talk a bit\Nabout that.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:32.28,0:17:35.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You write about the artist's process that\Nbelongs to you.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:35.23,0:17:37.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know, you're responsible for the\Nprocess,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:37.34,0:17:39.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but you say that the art is separate\Nto you.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:39.43,0:17:41.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I won't spoil it for people because
Dialogue: 0,0:17:41.07,0:17:42.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of those fabulous quotes you've found
Dialogue: 0,0:17:42.99,0:17:45.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from painters and writers throughout the\Nbook
Dialogue: 0,0:17:45.29,0:17:49.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about how... how distanced they feel from\Nthe thing they create.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:49.05,0:17:52.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Can you talk a bit about that? I thought\Nthat was really fascinating.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:53.37,0:17:57.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well sometimes it's... it's a good thing.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:57.80,0:18:00.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Sometimes just quite a scary thing.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:00.97,0:18:04.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I think for me I came to a point of...
Dialogue: 0,0:18:04.88,0:18:07.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of realizing that I had to be able to
Dialogue: 0,0:18:07.68,0:18:11.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,separate from my art.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:11.79,0:18:14.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean, it's a weird thing because it's so\Ncentral to you.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:14.47,0:18:17.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know, it is... it is part of you in\Na huge way.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:17.92,0:18:21.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But in order to... to make it what it\Nneeds to be
Dialogue: 0,0:18:21.47,0:18:23.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you also have to get some separation
Dialogue: 0,0:18:23.49,0:18:27.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where you can be quite disenchanted with\Nit. And quite...
Dialogue: 0,0:18:28.98,0:18:31.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you know, be ready to throw it all\Naway.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:31.24,0:18:34.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So you can't be too deeply connected
Dialogue: 0,0:18:34.53,0:18:37.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,even though we have to be too deeply\Nconnected at the same time.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:37.72,0:18:39.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And there's always, I mean a lot of the
Dialogue: 0,0:18:39.62,0:18:42.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,book is sort of discussing these tensions,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:42.01,0:18:45.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,these paradoxes where two things are true\Nat once.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:45.64,0:18:47.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,One is that, of course every book I've
Dialogue: 0,0:18:47.76,0:18:50.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,written is absolutely me and of course
Dialogue: 0,0:18:50.63,0:18:54.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,every book I've written is completely\Nseparate from me.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:55.42,0:18:57.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But there are certain points where you\Nneed to
Dialogue: 0,0:18:57.94,0:19:01.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,remove yourself from the book.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:01.00,0:19:05.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And one person I loved talking about this
Dialogue: 0,0:19:05.00,0:19:09.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,separation with was Jude Rae the painter.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:09.81,0:19:12.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,She's a magnificent Sydney painter,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:12.25,0:19:15.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,some people might know, and she talked\Nabout how
Dialogue: 0,0:19:15.64,0:19:18.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's really good while she... she...\Nshe really
Dialogue: 0,0:19:18.87,0:19:21.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,likes to have someone come into her studio
Dialogue: 0,0:19:21.17,0:19:24.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and see her painting while she is making\Nit.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:24.25,0:19:26.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, this could be any person.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:26.15,0:19:28.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It could be the postman.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:28.13,0:19:30.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It could be a neighbor.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:30.26,0:19:33.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It doesn't have to be a person who knows\Nanything about art.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:33.50,0:19:35.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Doesn't have to be a person who has an\Nopinion on it.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:35.73,0:19:38.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But something about their looking at it
Dialogue: 0,0:19:39.00,0:19:41.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that she called, she said it... it causes
Dialogue: 0,0:19:41.55,0:19:43.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a useful alienation
Dialogue: 0,0:19:43.41,0:19:45.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for... for her the painter.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:45.85,0:19:48.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So that she suddenly sees it through
Dialogue: 0,0:19:48.53,0:19:50.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a stranger's eyes.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:50.66,0:19:52.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And... and I said to her in this interview
Dialogue: 0,0:19:52.73,0:19:54.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"So it actually hasn't anything
Dialogue: 0,0:19:54.55,0:19:56.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to do with the person looking at it".
Dialogue: 0,0:19:56.36,0:19:58.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And she sort of laughed and said
Dialogue: 0,0:19:58.17,0:19:59.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"No, not really".
Dialogue: 0,0:19:59.29,0:20:01.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Like almost "I don't really care what\Nthey think".
Dialogue: 0,0:20:01.46,0:20:04.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But their being there, somehow causes her
Dialogue: 0,0:20:05.64,0:20:07.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to detach in a very useful way
Dialogue: 0,0:20:08.05,0:20:10.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so she can see it afresh.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:10.99,0:20:14.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I think that happens for writers in\Nlots of ways.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:14.79,0:20:17.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Sometimes not till the editorial process,
Dialogue: 0,0:20:17.07,0:20:18.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,right at the end.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:18.70,0:20:21.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,For me there's usually a point sort of
Dialogue: 0,0:20:21.22,0:20:23.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,three quarters of the way through\Ncompletion
Dialogue: 0,0:20:23.68,0:20:26.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where I'll hand over my work to, sort of
Dialogue: 0,0:20:27.30,0:20:30.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a trusted reader or to... to... to give me
Dialogue: 0,0:20:30.83,0:20:32.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a different perspective on it.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:33.31,0:20:37.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, it's sort of a weird and hazy thing\Nto try and describe.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:38.18,0:20:39.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I think that separation,
Dialogue: 0,0:20:40.20,0:20:42.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I remember reading some years ago
Dialogue: 0,0:20:42.47,0:20:45.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I never found out who it was who said\Nthis,
Dialogue: 0,0:20:45.52,0:20:46.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but they said
Dialogue: 0,0:20:46.85,0:20:49.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"You have to be disenchanted...
Dialogue: 0,0:20:49.70,0:20:51.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You have to be calm disenchanted with your
Dialogue: 0,0:20:51.77,0:20:54.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,work in order to enchant somebody else."
Dialogue: 0,0:20:55.40,0:20:57.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So the maker needs some sort of...
Dialogue: 0,0:20:58.76,0:20:59.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Distance.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:59.53,0:21:00.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Remove. Yeah.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:02.46,0:21:04.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Throughout the book as well in this first
Dialogue: 0,0:21:04.42,0:21:06.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,section you talk about some destructive
Dialogue: 0,0:21:06.42,0:21:08.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,mythologies around artists.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:08.12,0:21:10.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Around the artists' natural state.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:10.23,0:21:12.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And one of them is this idea that, \Nyou know,
Dialogue: 0,0:21:12.04,0:21:14.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for art to be good, maybe an artist needs\Nto suffer.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:14.47,0:21:16.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And you do write really frankly about,
Dialogue: 0,0:21:16.78,0:21:18.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you know, the grumpy solution,
Dialogue: 0,0:21:18.22,0:21:20.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the grumpy phase, the grumpy struggle
Dialogue: 0,0:21:20.12,0:21:21.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that you go through where you're like
Dialogue: 0,0:21:21.52,0:21:23.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"This is not working. And I just want to\Nrun away from it. Or I want to bury it"
Dialogue: 0,0:21:23.78,0:21:25.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or it's... whatever it is.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:25.11,0:21:27.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And wondered if you could, I suppose
Dialogue: 0,0:21:27.22,0:21:30.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,dispel that ... or unpack it for us that\Nmyth
Dialogue: 0,0:21:30.20,0:21:32.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about the... the state an artist has be in
Dialogue: 0,0:21:32.99,0:21:35.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or the state you have to be in, in order\Nto create, you know.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:36.53,0:21:38.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,For something of... to be of worth does it
Dialogue: 0,0:21:38.55,0:21:41.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have to cause me suffering to create it?
Dialogue: 0,0:21:43.12,0:21:47.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think when I was younger, I maybe
Dialogue: 0,0:21:48.48,0:21:50.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was a bit enchanted with that idea.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:50.82,0:21:54.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I'm still, I'm still sort of really \Nin two minds about it.
Dialogue: 0,0:21:54.48,0:21:56.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Just before I go into that I want to
Dialogue: 0,0:21:56.20,0:21:58.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,acknowledge that the grumpy struggle
Dialogue: 0,0:21:58.27,0:22:01.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the luminous solution both words come
Dialogue: 0,0:22:01.27,0:22:03.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from an American writer called \NJanet Burroway
Dialogue: 0,0:22:04.27,0:22:08.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who described her, her own writing\Nfor instance.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:08.72,0:22:10.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I will see if I can find it to quote\Nproperly.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:12.17,0:22:15.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,She said it's always the struggle to get\Nmyself. Here she says
Dialogue: 0,0:22:15.74,0:22:18.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"Once I'm working the process is much
Dialogue: 0,0:22:18.15,0:22:20.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the same in every genre. The effort to
Dialogue: 0,0:22:20.21,0:22:24.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,get myself to the computer, a period of\Ngrumpy struggle,
Dialogue: 0,0:22:24.25,0:22:26.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,despair, the luminous solution that
Dialogue: 0,0:22:26.88,0:22:30.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,appears in bed or bath, joyful work,
Dialogue: 0,0:22:30.13,0:22:32.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,repeat, repeat, repeat".
Dialogue: 0,0:22:32.69,0:22:34.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I just love that because it's like
Dialogue: 0,0:22:34.64,0:22:38.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"Yes! This describes exactly what it feels\Nlike for me".
Dialogue: 0,0:22:38.72,0:22:42.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But the... the idea... I think
Dialogue: 0,0:22:42.14,0:22:49.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the face of tortured artist myth is...\Nis really...
Dialogue: 0,0:22:49.82,0:22:51.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,can be very destructive.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:51.70,0:22:54.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And because it involves, in the way that
Dialogue: 0,0:22:54.68,0:22:56.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I've always thought of this,
Dialogue: 0,0:22:56.05,0:22:58.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sort of, the isolated artist,
Dialogue: 0,0:22:59.26,0:23:01.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,keeping themselves separate from the\Nworld.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:02.02,0:23:04.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And only from, you know, I think it's the
Dialogue: 0,0:23:04.64,0:23:06.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Hemingway said, you know
Dialogue: 0,0:23:06.19,0:23:09.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"Writing is easy. You just stand at the\Ntypewriter and bleed".
Dialogue: 0,0:23:10.26,0:23:12.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now lots of authors actually will\Nrecognize that
Dialogue: 0,0:23:12.78,0:23:14.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,very Hemingway, and the Patrick White
Dialogue: 0,0:23:14.56,0:23:15.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,quote about, you know
Dialogue: 0,0:23:15.67,0:23:18.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"The writing is dragged out by tongs,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:18.22,0:23:20.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a bloody mess in the small hours".
Dialogue: 0,0:23:20.91,0:23:21.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So good.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:21.68,0:23:23.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it's a big part of myth that... that
Dialogue: 0,0:23:24.05,0:23:26.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,totally recognizes that.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:26.65,0:23:29.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And yet I also want to really resist that
Dialogue: 0,0:23:30.01,0:23:34.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because I don't believe that you have to
Dialogue: 0,0:23:34.85,0:23:37.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,be in constant suffering
Dialogue: 0,0:23:37.30,0:23:40.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to... to produce anything of worth.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:40.44,0:23:41.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I just don't believe it.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:41.91,0:23:43.100,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I also think it's really damaging to
Dialogue: 0,0:23:43.100,0:23:46.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a lot of people who could have a really
Dialogue: 0,0:23:46.48,0:23:50.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,fulfilling and joyful creative life.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:51.24,0:23:53.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And when I say joyful I don't mean that
Dialogue: 0,0:23:53.25,0:23:56.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's, you know, Pollyanna sitting there
Dialogue: 0,0:23:56.43,0:24:00.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you know, laughing and skipping around
Dialogue: 0,0:24:00.56,0:24:02.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the room as I write, not at all.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:02.82,0:24:05.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But there is a deep sort of quiet, almost
Dialogue: 0,0:24:05.94,0:24:08.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,serious joy if that makes any sense.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:08.06,0:24:12.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That comes from investigating something
Dialogue: 0,0:24:12.06,0:24:14.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,really deeply and quietly
Dialogue: 0,0:24:14.34,0:24:17.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and going as deeply into it as you can.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:19.25,0:24:23.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But the... I think the whole tortured
Dialogue: 0,0:24:23.04,0:24:26.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,isolated artist thing is a very\Npatriarchal idea
Dialogue: 0,0:24:26.53,0:24:32.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because it depends on... that it comes \Nfrom
Dialogue: 0,0:24:33.26,0:24:35.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,male artists who have always had women
Dialogue: 0,0:24:35.13,0:24:37.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,doing all their boring crap in their\Nlives.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:37.47,0:24:40.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know, doing the dishes, doing the\Nlaundry,
Dialogue: 0,0:24:40.20,0:24:42.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,bringing up their children, cooking the\Nfood
Dialogue: 0,0:24:43.01,0:24:47.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to allow them to have this incredibly\Nprecious isolation.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:49.08,0:24:53.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And, you know, women's art making has
Dialogue: 0,0:24:53.38,0:24:55.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,always been much more porous.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:55.75,0:24:58.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because women have always, I mean I don't\Nhave children myself,
Dialogue: 0,0:24:58.77,0:25:01.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but many of my writer friends do,
Dialogue: 0,0:25:01.61,0:25:06.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and there is a wonderful photograph of \NRuth Park
Dialogue: 0,0:25:06.58,0:25:09.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,writing at a tiny little table with
Dialogue: 0,0:25:09.17,0:25:11.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,toddlers crawling between her legs
Dialogue: 0,0:25:11.89,0:25:13.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,while she's typing her work.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:13.98,0:25:17.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So women, had always... if not having\Nchildren
Dialogue: 0,0:25:17.73,0:25:19.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then you know, just...
Dialogue: 0,0:25:19.25,0:25:20.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Caring.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:20.10,0:25:22.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,...doing stuff around the... \Nyeah, caring
Dialogue: 0,0:25:22.15,0:25:24.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in lots of ways for families and friends
Dialogue: 0,0:25:24.36,0:25:26.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and partners and whatever.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:27.18,0:25:30.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I want to kind of celebrate in a way
Dialogue: 0,0:25:30.53,0:25:34.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that there are... there are communal\Naspects
Dialogue: 0,0:25:34.50,0:25:36.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to art making that don't mean I work on
Dialogue: 0,0:25:36.62,0:25:37.100,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,my art with somebody else.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:37.100,0:25:40.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I often work alongside somebody else.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:40.45,0:25:44.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that is really precious to me and\Nreally inspiring
Dialogue: 0,0:25:44.45,0:25:48.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and sort of energizing and challenging\Nas well.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:48.70,0:25:51.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's not just someone there holding my\Nhand.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:51.58,0:25:53.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know, I think the tortured artist,
Dialogue: 0,0:25:55.26,0:25:57.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,yeah, I had this sort of vision of a great
Dialogue: 0,0:25:57.68,0:26:01.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,man artist like this big blank outline
Dialogue: 0,0:26:01.25,0:26:02.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when I think of this stuff.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:03.11,0:26:05.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that sort of person would say
Dialogue: 0,0:26:05.25,0:26:07.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"Well, you have to be able to work on\Nyour own,
Dialogue: 0,0:26:07.58,0:26:09.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You have to be in isolation".
Dialogue: 0,0:26:09.61,0:26:12.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that is also true, but you don't
Dialogue: 0,0:26:12.40,0:26:17.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have to be in misery the whole time.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:17.72,0:26:19.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now I'm gonna do another little flip
Dialogue: 0,0:26:20.06,0:26:26.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and say I do think art costs.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:26.01,0:26:27.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It costs you.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:27.53,0:26:30.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I feel like if it doesn't cost you\Nsomething
Dialogue: 0,0:26:30.76,0:26:32.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it may be you're not going deep enough,
Dialogue: 0,0:26:32.63,0:26:35.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you're not pushing yourself enough.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:36.43,0:26:40.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, yeah, I know I am saying like 55
Dialogue: 0,0:26:40.95,0:26:42.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,completely contradictory things here,
Dialogue: 0,0:26:42.74,0:26:45.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but we can say multitudes.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:45.08,0:26:47.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That and we do and I love it. And that's\Nthe book as well.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:47.49,0:26:49.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean, you're picking up on some of the
Dialogue: 0,0:26:49.72,0:26:51.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,things you just said you describe in\Nthe book
Dialogue: 0,0:26:51.70,0:26:53.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that... that state called "porousness".
Dialogue: 0,0:26:53.78,0:26:55.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That women are more porous to the world.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:55.87,0:26:58.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That women artists are more porous to the\Nworld
Dialogue: 0,0:26:58.08,0:26:59.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because of their gender.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:59.33,0:27:01.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that we don't often think about why\Nthat is.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:01.96,0:27:04.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But you also described earlier in this\Nconversation
Dialogue: 0,0:27:04.41,0:27:06.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that when the pandemic first happened
Dialogue: 0,0:27:06.19,0:27:08.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,last year, you know, you... there was
Dialogue: 0,0:27:08.03,0:27:10.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,no rational reason for you to feel\Ndisrupted,
Dialogue: 0,0:27:10.26,0:27:11.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but your world was disrupted.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:11.97,0:27:13.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You are porous to the world, you can't be
Dialogue: 0,0:27:13.78,0:27:16.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,separate from the world. You can't be\Nsitting in a garrett
Dialogue: 0,0:27:16.16,0:27:17.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on your own in isolation.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:17.92,0:27:19.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I think also, you know you also talk
Dialogue: 0,0:27:19.50,0:27:22.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about the cost, the part has to the\Ncreative person.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:22.12,0:27:23.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But there's also a cost it has on a people
Dialogue: 0,0:27:23.60,0:27:25.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,around that creative person.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:25.29,0:27:26.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And there's a lot of that, you sound like
Dialogue: 0,0:27:26.79,0:27:27.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you've already dispelled it.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:27.81,0:27:30.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,All those myths around artists who are\Nallowed to behave badly
Dialogue: 0,0:27:30.17,0:27:31.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because they are geniuses.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:31.100,0:27:33.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I feel like finally we're beginning to
Dialogue: 0,0:27:33.81,0:27:35.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,really move away from that.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:35.29,0:27:38.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We're seeing the real impact on...\Non people and on communities of
Dialogue: 0,0:27:38.20,0:27:39.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as you say if life is the process
Dialogue: 0,0:27:39.94,0:27:41.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of how damaging that can be when
Dialogue: 0,0:27:41.54,0:27:44.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the art is beautiful and the artist is \Nabhorrent.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:44.04,0:27:46.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And we don't have to love the person to\Nlove the art.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:46.51,0:27:49.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I'm also saying a whole lot of\Nflip flopped things.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:49.76,0:27:50.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The nature of...
Dialogue: 0,0:27:50.74,0:27:52.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I agree with that. Absolutely.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:52.24,0:27:53.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yeah.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:53.18,0:27:55.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I wanted to cover a bit about... to talk
Dialogue: 0,0:27:55.12,0:27:56.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with you a bit about reading.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:56.06,0:27:57.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There's a beautiful chapter in the book\Ncalled
Dialogue: 0,0:27:57.79,0:27:59.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"Reading Isn't Shopping".
Dialogue: 0,0:27:59.80,0:28:02.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I... and then I want to get to some\Nwriterly stuff.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:02.25,0:28:04.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I wanted to know why you wanted to...
Dialogue: 0,0:28:04.33,0:28:06.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to write that chapter in particular.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:06.01,0:28:08.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I... and just to let people know that
Dialogue: 0,0:28:08.06,0:28:10.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the conversation in that... in that piece
Dialogue: 0,0:28:10.04,0:28:12.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is about what's going on when a word...\Nwork of art
Dialogue: 0,0:28:12.28,0:28:14.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,makes us feel bad or disrupts us
Dialogue: 0,0:28:14.95,0:28:16.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and what we can learn from that.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:16.73,0:28:18.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Can you talk a bit about that?
Dialogue: 0,0:28:19.98,0:28:23.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yeah. I started writing about that \Nparticular
Dialogue: 0,0:28:24.65,0:28:27.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,topic because... partly because of
Dialogue: 0,0:28:27.10,0:28:29.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,out of writing "The Natural Way of\NThings",
Dialogue: 0,0:28:29.11,0:28:31.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which was a novel couple... a few years\Nago of my...
Dialogue: 0,0:28:32.08,0:28:38.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that was very dark and very kind of \Nharrowing really to write
Dialogue: 0,0:28:38.14,0:28:40.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I know for some people to read.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:41.17,0:28:45.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it... it taught me a lot about writing
Dialogue: 0,0:28:45.87,0:28:48.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and about why I was doing what I was doing\Nand so on.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:48.43,0:28:50.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I also had quite a lot of...
Dialogue: 0,0:28:50.11,0:28:52.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I did a lot of talking in public about it
Dialogue: 0,0:28:52.08,0:28:55.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I had a lot of interactions with\Npeople about it.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:55.02,0:28:57.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Some of which were very uncomfortable.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:59.09,0:29:01.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So that... that the initial spark for that
Dialogue: 0,0:29:01.94,0:29:04.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,particular chapter came when I was
Dialogue: 0,0:29:04.75,0:29:09.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,being a sort of volunteer gallery\Nattendant
Dialogue: 0,0:29:09.73,0:29:12.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in this little art gallery over a weekend
Dialogue: 0,0:29:12.39,0:29:16.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with a whole bunch of pictures that I\Ndidn't like.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:16.27,0:29:20.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I thought they were kind of... kind of\Nugly.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:20.04,0:29:22.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And some of them seemed a bit violent.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:22.40,0:29:25.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And they were... you know, they were\Nnot the sort
Dialogue: 0,0:29:25.33,0:29:27.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of pictures that I would have on my wall\Nat home.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:27.72,0:29:31.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And... but because I sat there for two...\Nthree whole days
Dialogue: 0,0:29:31.72,0:29:34.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I had to kind of really start thinking\Nabout
Dialogue: 0,0:29:34.49,0:29:36.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"Well, what's going on with these?
Dialogue: 0,0:29:36.90,0:29:39.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Why do I feel like I feel about \Nthese pictures?"
Dialogue: 0,0:29:39.45,0:29:43.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that led me to thinking about books
Dialogue: 0,0:29:43.56,0:29:47.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that are difficult or unpleasant
Dialogue: 0,0:29:49.08,0:29:52.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and why it's important that we still read\Nthem.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:52.54,0:29:55.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know, that we don't necessary...
Dialogue: 0,0:29:55.21,0:29:56.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and also with you know film and
Dialogue: 0,0:29:56.69,0:30:00.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,theater and everything else within art\Nin general.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:00.33,0:30:04.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That I think it's really important that we
Dialogue: 0,0:30:04.15,0:30:07.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,don't stop looking at something or reading\Nsomething
Dialogue: 0,0:30:07.98,0:30:10.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or listening to something just because we
Dialogue: 0,0:30:10.09,0:30:11.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,don't like it.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:11.58,0:30:14.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that's where the phrase "Reading Isn't\NShopping" came from.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:14.58,0:30:18.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because I felt that... I don't know how
Dialogue: 0,0:30:18.51,0:30:20.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,recent it is, whether it's just always\Nbeen there
Dialogue: 0,0:30:20.85,0:30:24.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but there is a sort of sense sometimes\Nthat
Dialogue: 0,0:30:25.74,0:30:30.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,well if a book doesn't please me\Nit... it's of no use to me.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:31.17,0:30:32.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And...
Dialogue: 0,0:30:32.02,0:30:34.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If I can't see myself in a book, if I\Ncan't
Dialogue: 0,0:30:34.06,0:30:35.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,relate to the people in the book
Dialogue: 0,0:30:35.63,0:30:36.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That's right.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:36.34,0:30:38.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there's a lot about... a lot of emphasis
Dialogue: 0,0:30:38.26,0:30:40.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on art needing to mirror my exact
Dialogue: 0,0:30:40.71,0:30:42.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,experience in the world which
Dialogue: 0,0:30:42.40,0:30:44.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is a peculiar new thing I think.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:44.75,0:30:48.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yes it is idea of relatability which is\Nsomething I sort of
Dialogue: 0,0:30:48.62,0:30:51.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have a bit of a discussion about.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:51.95,0:30:54.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I... I remembered my own high school\Nyears
Dialogue: 0,0:30:54.93,0:30:57.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I had brilliant English teachers
Dialogue: 0,0:30:57.70,0:31:00.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,uncle Gilligivitriou and uncle \NPaul Cullen.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:00.17,0:31:04.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And they... and I remember Gilligivitriou \Nin particular, you know,
Dialogue: 0,0:31:04.31,0:31:07.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I... at the... whatever 16 year old saying
Dialogue: 0,0:31:07.52,0:31:09.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"I liked, I liked that book! I can relate\Nto that".
Dialogue: 0,0:31:10.06,0:31:12.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And... and my English teacher saying
Dialogue: 0,0:31:12.74,0:31:15.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"That's of absolutely no relevance\Nwhatsoever
Dialogue: 0,0:31:15.36,0:31:17.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that you can relate to it. I don't care
Dialogue: 0,0:31:17.22,0:31:18.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if you can relate to it.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:18.39,0:31:20.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What is the book doing? What effect is it\Nhaving?
Dialogue: 0,0:31:20.68,0:31:22.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What is the author trying to say?
Dialogue: 0,0:31:22.55,0:31:24.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know... What is the language doing?
Dialogue: 0,0:31:24.49,0:31:26.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What is the rhythm doing? What is the\Nsetting?"
Dialogue: 0,0:31:26.94,0:31:29.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know... and it was... so I was so
Dialogue: 0,0:31:29.31,0:31:31.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,trained out of it very very early, really
Dialogue: 0,0:31:31.80,0:31:33.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,while I was still a child.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:33.47,0:31:36.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I'm so glad that I was because then
Dialogue: 0,0:31:36.72,0:31:38.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it allows you to actually see what's
Dialogue: 0,0:31:38.46,0:31:40.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in a book rather than just going
Dialogue: 0,0:31:40.02,0:31:42.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Oh, the only measure is "I liked it", \N"I didn't like it".
Dialogue: 0,0:31:42.93,0:31:45.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know, sort of thumbs up, thumbs down.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:46.61,0:31:50.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then, I started to think in that...\Nin that chapter
Dialogue: 0,0:31:50.10,0:31:52.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about how we... we're...
Dialogue: 0,0:31:54.40,0:31:57.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,capitalism just wants to give us\Nwhat we want, right.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:57.60,0:31:59.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So it wants to please us because then
Dialogue: 0,0:31:59.66,0:32:01.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we buy more stuff.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:01.04,0:32:03.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So we've started transferring this kind of
Dialogue: 0,0:32:03.13,0:32:05.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,shopping mentality into art.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:06.43,0:32:08.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I think it's really dangerous.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:09.45,0:32:14.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So that... the idea that a book should
Dialogue: 0,0:32:15.16,0:32:20.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,represent me rather than show me\Nsomething...
Dialogue: 0,0:32:20.23,0:32:22.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And you know all... all writers and I'm
Dialogue: 0,0:32:22.41,0:32:23.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,certainly one with them,
Dialogue: 0,0:32:23.58,0:32:25.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that we have people complaining about
Dialogue: 0,0:32:25.56,0:32:27.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the behavior of our fictional characters
Dialogue: 0,0:32:27.91,0:32:29.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because it's not nice or it's...
Dialogue: 0,0:32:29.65,0:32:31.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's sort of immoral in some way.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:31.79,0:32:34.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Or... and there was, I think I detailed
Dialogue: 0,0:32:34.97,0:32:37.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in that one woman who wrote on the social\Nmedia thing
Dialogue: 0,0:32:37.66,0:32:39.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that she hated my book "The Weekend"
Dialogue: 0,0:32:39.40,0:32:42.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because it... the women in it were nothing
Dialogue: 0,0:32:42.98,0:32:44.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like her and her friends.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:44.90,0:32:47.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And... I was... I'm always just kind of
Dialogue: 0,0:32:48.49,0:32:51.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a bit gobsmacked by that.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:51.98,0:32:54.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know, I have friends in the world,
Dialogue: 0,0:32:54.60,0:32:58.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but don't go to books to find friends.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:00.64,0:33:03.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I think sometimes it's really \Nimportant to...
Dialogue: 0,0:33:04.82,0:33:08.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to just force yourself to keep going with
Dialogue: 0,0:33:08.32,0:33:09.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the book you don't like.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:09.47,0:33:11.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Even if you still don't like it at the\Nend.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:12.77,0:33:16.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jerry Saltz is a... is a art critic for
Dialogue: 0,0:33:16.77,0:33:17.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,New York Magazine
Dialogue: 0,0:33:17.93,0:33:19.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and he has a great little booklet
Dialogue: 0,0:33:23.85,0:33:26.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,called "How to Be an Artist".
Dialogue: 0,0:33:26.18,0:33:27.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I really love this book.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:29.93,0:33:32.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And he says, finding out what you don't
Dialogue: 0,0:33:32.60,0:33:35.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like is as important as finding what you\Ndo like
Dialogue: 0,0:33:35.04,0:33:37.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because what you don't like will show you\Nthings
Dialogue: 0,0:33:37.94,0:33:41.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about yourself and about what you want to\Nmake as an artist.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:41.91,0:33:43.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And he... he suggests that if you're
Dialogue: 0,0:33:43.79,0:33:46.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,looking at something that you hate,
Dialogue: 0,0:33:46.32,0:33:48.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,think "Well if I was the kind of person
Dialogue: 0,0:33:48.40,0:33:51.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who likes this what would I like about it.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:51.19,0:33:53.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I really like that approach to say,
Dialogue: 0,0:33:54.08,0:33:57.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it just sort of... it just deepens the\Nwhole thing.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:57.84,0:33:59.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I was reading a book the other day
Dialogue: 0,0:33:59.65,0:34:02.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a translation of a Japanese book
Dialogue: 0,0:34:02.53,0:34:04.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I don't know if the translation is\Nreally bad
Dialogue: 0,0:34:04.97,0:34:07.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or be it artist... like... this is really
Dialogue: 0,0:34:08.28,0:34:10.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not doing it for me.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:10.26,0:34:11.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Wasn't working for me.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:11.59,0:34:14.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I remembered Jerry. Well if it was
Dialogue: 0,0:34:14.22,0:34:16.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,working for me what would I see.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:16.25,0:34:18.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So it was kind of, you know...
Dialogue: 0,0:34:18.36,0:34:20.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's... it's interesting, it just makes...
Dialogue: 0,0:34:20.41,0:34:23.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's not about sort of morality
Dialogue: 0,0:34:23.38,0:34:25.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,although I think there is an ethical\Ndimension to it.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:26.39,0:34:30.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But it's about just enriching things,
Dialogue: 0,0:34:30.38,0:34:32.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,making them more complex and interesting.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:33.19,0:34:35.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,One... and one of the other things you\Ntalk about in that same chapter
Dialogue: 0,0:34:35.82,0:34:38.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is this idea of "empathy porn".
Dialogue: 0,0:34:38.30,0:34:40.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That there's an overemphasis here
Dialogue: 0,0:34:40.01,0:34:41.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and while it comes from a good place
Dialogue: 0,0:34:41.73,0:34:43.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the idea that fiction isn't up here,
Dialogue: 0,0:34:43.75,0:34:45.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I hear people saying empathy machines.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:45.78,0:34:47.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So there is no... no better way to get
Dialogue: 0,0:34:47.60,0:34:49.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people to think that... that someone
Dialogue: 0,0:34:49.51,0:34:52.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,different to them is a human than to read\Nabout that person.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:52.36,0:34:55.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But you describe, I... I think it might \Nbe Sarah Sentilles
Dialogue: 0,0:34:55.14,0:34:56.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I can't remember who... who.. which other
Dialogue: 0,0:34:56.97,0:34:58.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,author talked about it.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:58.11,0:35:00.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The idea of... of embracing radical\N"otherness",
Dialogue: 0,0:35:00.66,0:35:02.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like embracing radical difference.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:02.41,0:35:04.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I thought that was a really wonderful way
Dialogue: 0,0:35:04.44,0:35:08.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to push through that idea of empathy\Nis obviously very important.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:08.26,0:35:09.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And there's something else that you
Dialogue: 0,0:35:09.93,0:35:12.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,really capture brilliantly on the page
Dialogue: 0,0:35:12.10,0:35:14.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is that something different happens
Dialogue: 0,0:35:14.35,0:35:17.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to my imagination when I read your\Ncharacters in "The Weekend"
Dialogue: 0,0:35:17.27,0:35:19.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to when I see them on my screen.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:19.11,0:35:21.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If I'm watching a Netflix show and I see
Dialogue: 0,0:35:21.03,0:35:22.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people who are abhorrent and... and
Dialogue: 0,0:35:22.71,0:35:24.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have affairs with each other and sleep
Dialogue: 0,0:35:24.55,0:35:26.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with someone else's husband,
Dialogue: 0,0:35:26.02,0:35:27.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm more likely to kind of roll with it.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:27.97,0:35:30.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But when I'm translating it into my own\Nimagination
Dialogue: 0,0:35:30.66,0:35:32.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there is something else that happens
Dialogue: 0,0:35:32.39,0:35:34.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and you... you capture that process.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:34.11,0:35:36.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You capture that process in your... as a\Nwriter
Dialogue: 0,0:35:36.42,0:35:38.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and therefore you make us think about that
Dialogue: 0,0:35:38.42,0:35:41.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,process as readers, which is really\Na great gift in this book
Dialogue: 0,0:35:41.35,0:35:43.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,all the way through it actually.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:43.61,0:35:44.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Thank you.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:44.32,0:35:46.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think that thing about empathy is really
Dialogue: 0,0:35:46.65,0:35:48.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it is really interesting because I...
Dialogue: 0,0:35:48.72,0:35:50.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I say in that chapter, Look
Dialogue: 0,0:35:50.33,0:35:53.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm, you know, being quite snooty about\Nrelatability,
Dialogue: 0,0:35:53.26,0:35:56.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but you know, quite a lot of us talk about
Dialogue: 0,0:35:56.21,0:35:59.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,empathy as... as the real... the thing
Dialogue: 0,0:35:59.21,0:36:01.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that makes books so... you... novels so\Nimportant.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:03.53,0:36:08.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And... and then I was like, well how far\Nis the difference
Dialogue: 0,0:36:08.18,0:36:10.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,between relatability and empathy.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:10.15,0:36:13.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know, it's still about how able am I
Dialogue: 0,0:36:13.72,0:36:16.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to inhabit this other life.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:16.70,0:36:18.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And of course we... we want that.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:18.50,0:36:21.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Reading is an act of putting yourself into
Dialogue: 0,0:36:21.46,0:36:26.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the... the person of the... people in\Nthe book.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:27.38,0:36:29.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But Sarah Sentilles wrote that great thing
Dialogue: 0,0:36:29.94,0:36:32.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in her book "Draw Your Weapons".
Dialogue: 0,0:36:32.14,0:36:35.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And she does talk... I think she calls it\Nradical otherness
Dialogue: 0,0:36:35.53,0:36:37.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and she says empathy depends on...
Dialogue: 0,0:36:37.92,0:36:40.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm paraphrasing here, I hope I'm \Ngetting it right enough,
Dialogue: 0,0:36:42.21,0:36:45.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Empathy depends on perceived likeness.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:45.12,0:36:47.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know, I'll treat this person justly
Dialogue: 0,0:36:47.82,0:36:50.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because on some level they are like me.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:50.88,0:36:53.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then she says, well what if they're\Nnot like you?
Dialogue: 0,0:36:53.97,0:36:58.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What if you cannot find that point of\Nconnection?
Dialogue: 0,0:36:59.33,0:37:00.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What then?
Dialogue: 0,0:37:00.32,0:37:02.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And she says we need to learn to
Dialogue: 0,0:37:02.18,0:37:06.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,protect and respect, I think that which we
Dialogue: 0,0:37:06.18,0:37:08.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,don't understand and we will never\Nunderstand.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:08.83,0:37:10.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know, that we should... we should
Dialogue: 0,0:37:11.77,0:37:16.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,give people human rights even if they're\Nabhorrent to us
Dialogue: 0,0:37:16.84,0:37:19.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because they're humans not because I
Dialogue: 0,0:37:20.76,0:37:22.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,see myself in you.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:22.69,0:37:24.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Not because they're like me.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:24.17,0:37:25.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So that's the kind of, yeah.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:26.96,0:37:29.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There's... we're talking about why we \Nread, sorry,
Dialogue: 0,0:37:30.40,0:37:33.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but there's also why you write and there's
Dialogue: 0,0:37:33.39,0:37:35.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the beautiful connection obviously
Dialogue: 0,0:37:35.03,0:37:36.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,between those two things.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:36.22,0:37:37.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I wondered if you could read
Dialogue: 0,0:37:37.76,0:37:39.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a little bit from your book.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:39.10,0:37:42.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There's a fantastic section, sorry, to\Ngive people background
Dialogue: 0,0:37:42.42,0:37:44.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's a moment in the book where Charlotte
Dialogue: 0,0:37:44.37,0:37:47.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is talking about how, sorry,
Dialogue: 0,0:37:47.62,0:37:50.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,she has lost her way with the book.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:50.89,0:37:53.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And she's not sure why she's writing
Dialogue: 0,0:37:53.20,0:37:54.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and she doesn't want to keep writing.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:54.97,0:37:56.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And you make a list for yourself of why
Dialogue: 0,0:37:56.84,0:37:57.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you might keep going.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:57.84,0:38:00.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I wonder if you could just read that\Nfor us?
Dialogue: 0,0:38:00.43,0:38:02.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Thank you Michaela, sorry you've got
Dialogue: 0,0:38:02.38,0:38:04.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,scratchy throat, I know that feeling.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:05.70,0:38:10.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yes, this... it was while I was writing
Dialogue: 0,0:38:10.46,0:38:12.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"The Natural Way of Things".
Dialogue: 0,0:38:12.57,0:38:15.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"So on one very bad writing day a few
Dialogue: 0,0:38:15.30,0:38:18.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,years back, I thought again about giving\Nup.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:18.29,0:38:21.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I wrote to a couple of my writer friends
Dialogue: 0,0:38:22.22,0:38:24.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and this is the email that I wrote to\Nthem.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:25.11,0:38:27.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"Not going so well this week after all.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:28.13,0:38:31.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Somehow swamped again with the futility\Nof this work.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:32.16,0:38:35.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Trying to find the point of writing a dark\Nbleak book
Dialogue: 0,0:38:35.26,0:38:39.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about girls imprisoned and trapped\Nand reviled.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:39.80,0:38:42.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yesterday, I couldn't see how I was not
Dialogue: 0,0:38:42.13,0:38:44.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,just adding yet more ugliness to the\Nworld.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:45.84,0:38:48.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I had just bucked myself up a little\Nbit
Dialogue: 0,0:38:48.74,0:38:51.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,by writing a list of reasons to keep\Ngoing.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:52.19,0:38:54.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Here is what I came up with:
Dialogue: 0,0:38:54.90,0:38:57.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,1. To make something beautiful.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:57.18,0:38:59.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Beauty does not have to mean prettiness,
Dialogue: 0,0:38:59.76,0:39:02.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but can emerge from the scope of ones\Nimagination,
Dialogue: 0,0:39:03.14,0:39:06.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the precision of ones words, the\Nsteadiness
Dialogue: 0,0:39:06.29,0:39:08.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and honesty of ones gaze.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:09.47,0:39:14.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,2. To make something truthful. Beauty is \NTruth. Truth Beauty.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:16.07,0:39:19.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,3. To make use of what you have and who\Nyou are.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:19.94,0:39:22.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Even a limited talent brings an obligation
Dialogue: 0,0:39:22.87,0:39:26.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to explore it, develop it, exercise it,
Dialogue: 0,0:39:26.44,0:39:28.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,be grateful for it.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:29.82,0:39:34.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Next. To make at all. To create is to defy\Nemptiness.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:34.82,0:39:38.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It is generous. It affirms.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:38.06,0:39:41.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,To make is to add to the world\Nnot subtract from it.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:41.90,0:39:45.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It enlarges, does not diminish.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:45.85,0:39:49.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,At last, because as Iris Murdoch said
Dialogue: 0,0:39:50.15,0:39:53.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,paying attention is a moral act. To write
Dialogue: 0,0:39:53.47,0:39:55.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,truthfully is to honor the luck
Dialogue: 0,0:39:56.01,0:39:58.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the intricate detail of being alone.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:00.77,0:40:03.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I returned to that list for comfort often
Dialogue: 0,0:40:03.38,0:40:04.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,through the writing of my novel.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:04.98,0:40:07.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But it had stayed with me in the years\Nsince
Dialogue: 0,0:40:07.65,0:40:11.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because I think it speaks to the reasons\Nwe need art at all.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:12.12,0:40:14.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It often feels that we've entered a new\Ndark age.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:15.29,0:40:17.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,An age in which science is rejected
Dialogue: 0,0:40:17.34,0:40:19.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in favor of superstition and greed,
Dialogue: 0,0:40:20.40,0:40:23.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in which our planet is desperate need\Nof rescuing,
Dialogue: 0,0:40:23.91,0:40:27.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in which bigotry and religion are\Ninseparable.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:28.60,0:40:31.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In the midst of this gloom, to create
Dialogue: 0,0:40:31.25,0:40:34.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is an act of enlargement, of affirmation.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:35.24,0:40:37.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It lights a candle in the darkness
Dialogue: 0,0:40:37.85,0:40:40.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,offering solace, illumination, maybe
Dialogue: 0,0:40:40.83,0:40:43.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,even the possibility of transformation
Dialogue: 0,0:40:43.85,0:40:46.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not just for the maker but for the reader
Dialogue: 0,0:40:46.87,0:40:50.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or viewer, which is to say all of us.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:50.48,0:40:54.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Art urges us to imagine and inhabit lives
Dialogue: 0,0:40:54.57,0:40:55.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,other than our own.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:56.07,0:40:57.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,To be more thoughtful.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:58.04,0:40:59.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,To feel more deeply.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:00.05,0:41:02.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,To challenge what we think we already \Nknow.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:03.54,0:41:06.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Art declares that we contain multitudes,
Dialogue: 0,0:41:07.66,0:41:10.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that more than one thing can be true at\Nonce.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:10.69,0:41:12.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it gives us a breathing space
Dialogue: 0,0:41:12.88,0:41:15.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in which we can listen more than talk,
Dialogue: 0,0:41:15.60,0:41:18.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where we can attentively question our\Nown beliefs.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:19.24,0:41:22.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It gives us a place in this chaotic world
Dialogue: 0,0:41:22.01,0:41:23.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in which to find the sort of meaning
Dialogue: 0,0:41:23.99,0:41:29.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that only arises out of stillness, deep\Nwithin our quiet selves.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:30.83,0:41:32.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So beautiful, it's one of my favorite
Dialogue: 0,0:41:32.75,0:41:34.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sections of the book. Thank you Charlotte.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:34.76,0:41:35.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Thank you.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:35.50,0:41:37.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I wanted to ask you a few other questions
Dialogue: 0,0:41:37.45,0:41:39.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about sort of writing and writerly\Nprocess.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:39.32,0:41:41.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Early on you talk about, you referred\Nto it
Dialogue: 0,0:41:41.33,0:41:43.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,earlier in our conversation about this\Nidea
Dialogue: 0,0:41:43.30,0:41:44.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the writing mind.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:44.42,0:41:45.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And you say that the writing mind is
Dialogue: 0,0:41:45.74,0:41:48.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,something beneath beyond or behind
Dialogue: 0,0:41:48.00,0:41:49.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,normal conscious thought.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:49.66,0:41:51.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And this conversation tonight is about
Dialogue: 0,0:41:51.49,0:41:53.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,how we can use creativity to think \Ndifferently
Dialogue: 0,0:41:53.38,0:41:56.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about our work, the way we are in the \Ncommunity,
Dialogue: 0,0:41:56.70,0:41:58.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they way we make decisions about things.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:58.73,0:42:00.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Can you talk a bit more about that idea,
Dialogue: 0,0:42:00.37,0:42:02.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the idea of this... well I'm fascinated
Dialogue: 0,0:42:02.34,0:42:04.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with this idea of you being conscious of
Dialogue: 0,0:42:04.08,0:42:05.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,these two minds.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:05.28,0:42:07.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That the idea of your writing mind as \Nbeing
Dialogue: 0,0:42:07.66,0:42:09.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,beneath or beyond.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:12.38,0:42:17.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yeah. It's kind of a strange way to move\Nin lots of ways.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:17.12,0:42:20.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean it's sort of, it's wonderful and\Nit's...
Dialogue: 0,0:42:20.98,0:42:23.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it can be weird.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:23.67,0:42:25.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Like I know some writers who feel like
Dialogue: 0,0:42:25.49,0:42:28.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they are never actually truly present
Dialogue: 0,0:42:28.16,0:42:29.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with other people.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:29.23,0:42:32.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because it's always a part of them that is
Dialogue: 0,0:42:32.24,0:42:33.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in their book or whatever.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:33.82,0:42:35.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I don't particularly feel like that.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:35.59,0:42:37.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I feel like when I'm writing, I'm doing\Nthat
Dialogue: 0,0:42:37.14,0:42:38.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and when I'm going about my life...
Dialogue: 0,0:42:38.34,0:42:41.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But when I'm with people, I generally feel
Dialogue: 0,0:42:41.14,0:42:44.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,fairly, you know, present. It's just that\Nmoment.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:44.28,0:42:46.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But of course there are times you know
Dialogue: 0,0:42:46.96,0:42:48.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,another writer a friend of mine said
Dialogue: 0,0:42:48.68,0:42:50.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"Well, you know the good thing about
Dialogue: 0,0:42:50.18,0:42:53.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,being a writer is that a boring dinner\Nparty is never wasted".
Dialogue: 0,0:42:53.30,0:42:57.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And, you know, there's always a place\Nyou can go when
Dialogue: 0,0:42:57.13,0:42:59.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when you're not... you know, when\Nyou don't
Dialogue: 0,0:42:59.16,0:43:02.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,want to be connected to what is in front\Nof you.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:04.45,0:43:09.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But it's... it's kind of important to...
Dialogue: 0,0:43:11.26,0:43:14.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to learn to access that other place
Dialogue: 0,0:43:14.40,0:43:17.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as sort of thoroughly and deeply\Nas you can.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:17.89,0:43:19.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I lose sight of it all the time.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:19.64,0:43:21.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And you know the pandemic has...\Nhas really
Dialogue: 0,0:43:21.71,0:43:25.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,pushed me out of my... of my quiet
Dialogue: 0,0:43:26.25,0:43:27.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,imaginative mind.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:28.21,0:43:30.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that's when I need to do things like\Nyou know
Dialogue: 0,0:43:30.51,0:43:32.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,drawing the boundaries of time space
Dialogue: 0,0:43:32.50,0:43:35.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and keep out and don't do, you know,
Dialogue: 0,0:43:35.55,0:43:38.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a lot of socializing and that sort of\Nstuff.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:38.52,0:43:42.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There is a list of Susan Sontag's sort of
Dialogue: 0,0:43:42.01,0:43:45.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,diary notes to herself in the book
Dialogue: 0,0:43:45.36,0:43:47.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where she gives herself these sort of
Dialogue: 0,0:43:47.23,0:43:49.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,lectures in her journals about
Dialogue: 0,0:43:50.07,0:43:52.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"So I will go to bed at this time.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:52.57,0:43:54.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I will get up at this time.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:54.07,0:43:56.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I'll only have lunch once a week and
Dialogue: 0,0:43:56.62,0:43:58.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,say no to this and blah blah".
Dialogue: 0,0:43:58.52,0:44:00.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I found it very amusing because she
Dialogue: 0,0:44:00.43,0:44:02.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,also has little qualifiers next to\Nall these
Dialogue: 0,0:44:02.56,0:44:04.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,things saying, you know
Dialogue: 0,0:44:04.13,0:44:06.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"I will only have lunch once a week" and
Dialogue: 0,0:44:06.24,0:44:09.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then in brackets "can break this rule\Nonce a fortnight".
Dialogue: 0,0:44:09.27,0:44:11.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then "I will only do this".
Dialogue: 0,0:44:11.00,0:44:13.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"Can break this rule two times a week".
Dialogue: 0,0:44:14.47,0:44:16.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So it's this kind of... and it shows you
Dialogue: 0,0:44:16.39,0:44:20.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sort of attempt always to move between...\Nbetween worlds
Dialogue: 0,0:44:20.28,0:44:24.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to stay in the kind of quiet, private,
Dialogue: 0,0:44:26.94,0:44:30.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sort of wilderness of your creative mind.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:31.18,0:44:33.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And yet for me, I had to go into the world
Dialogue: 0,0:44:33.83,0:44:36.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to bring stuff back to that creative mind
Dialogue: 0,0:44:36.80,0:44:38.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and to my novel.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:38.01,0:44:40.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know, my novel in my head needs
Dialogue: 0,0:44:40.06,0:44:41.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the outside world to feed it.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:42.12,0:44:44.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So it is a real tension that movement
Dialogue: 0,0:44:44.22,0:44:45.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,between the two.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:47.25,0:44:49.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Another thing that goes throughout \Nthe whole book,
Dialogue: 0,0:44:49.64,0:44:52.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I want to ask you some questions about\N"The Natural Way of Things",
Dialogue: 0,0:44:52.98,0:44:55.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is you also write about the role that\Nother artists
Dialogue: 0,0:44:55.37,0:44:57.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have in inspiring you and visual artists\Ncome up a lot.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:58.45,0:45:00.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I was surprised by that, I was.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:00.12,0:45:02.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I wondered if you could explain what it is
Dialogue: 0,0:45:02.21,0:45:03.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they offer to you as a writer.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:06.26,0:45:08.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yes, it's sort of fairly recent thing for\Nme
Dialogue: 0,0:45:08.43,0:45:10.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to be, I mean I've always loved looking
Dialogue: 0,0:45:10.89,0:45:12.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,at visual art, but
Dialogue: 0,0:45:13.65,0:45:16.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,lately, really in recent years, \NI've started
Dialogue: 0,0:45:16.17,0:45:19.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,seeing particular artists as real
Dialogue: 0,0:45:19.44,0:45:22.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sort of guides for me, for myself.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:23.20,0:45:24.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Whether they know it or not.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:24.95,0:45:27.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Sometimes it's just about their bravery
Dialogue: 0,0:45:27.82,0:45:30.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and their willingness to
Dialogue: 0,0:45:33.12,0:45:34.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,just walk their own path.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:34.83,0:45:37.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And while I was writing "The Natural Way\Nof Things"
Dialogue: 0,0:45:38.79,0:45:43.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I became quite, a bit obsessed with
Dialogue: 0,0:45:44.15,0:45:46.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the artist Louise Bourgeois.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:46.32,0:45:48.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The sculpture and the installation artist.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:48.79,0:45:51.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,She... for people who the name isn't\Nfamiliar,
Dialogue: 0,0:45:51.61,0:45:53.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you might, you will have seen those
Dialogue: 0,0:45:53.29,0:45:55.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,enormous spiders,
Dialogue: 0,0:45:55.64,0:45:58.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like, as big as a house, kind of,
Dialogue: 0,0:45:58.52,0:46:00.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,metal spiders outside of the Guggenheim
Dialogue: 0,0:46:00.93,0:46:02.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on the building somewhere.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:02.82,0:46:07.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Or she makes cages made with creepy things
Dialogue: 0,0:46:07.49,0:46:08.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,hanging inside them.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:08.58,0:46:12.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And she inspired me because I've felt,
Dialogue: 0,0:46:12.79,0:46:14.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I was so... I went through a period\Nof being
Dialogue: 0,0:46:14.99,0:46:16.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,very afraid, while I was writing
Dialogue: 0,0:46:16.76,0:46:19.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"The Natural Way of Things" and feeling\Nso kind of...
Dialogue: 0,0:46:21.05,0:46:23.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that I was such a weirdo and it was so\Ncreepy
Dialogue: 0,0:46:23.58,0:46:25.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and what was it saying about me that I was
Dialogue: 0,0:46:25.64,0:46:27.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,having this stuff in my head that I was
Dialogue: 0,0:46:27.53,0:46:29.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,putting on the page.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:29.27,0:46:32.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I also kept thinking "Why am I doing\Nthis? Why am I doing this?
Dialogue: 0,0:46:32.42,0:46:33.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And what does it mean?"
Dialogue: 0,0:46:33.74,0:46:35.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it was so tedious to keep going,
Dialogue: 0,0:46:36.56,0:46:39.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,stopping and questioning myself all the\Ntime.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:39.52,0:46:41.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that's when I came across the work of
Dialogue: 0,0:46:41.66,0:46:44.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Louis Bourgeois, which was really creepy,
Dialogue: 0,0:46:44.82,0:46:50.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,always really menacing, slightly violent\Nand also beautiful.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:50.49,0:46:53.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And... so I decided at a certain point
Dialogue: 0,0:46:53.11,0:46:56.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that whenever I get, you know sort of...
Dialogue: 0,0:46:57.33,0:46:59.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when I feel wimpy about it,
Dialogue: 0,0:46:59.54,0:47:01.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm just gonna, I'm gonna be Louise\NBourgeois.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:02.32,0:47:04.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm going to... and I think I said
Dialogue: 0,0:47:04.87,0:47:06.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm just gonna hang some uteruses
Dialogue: 0,0:47:07.14,0:47:09.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in a cage and forget about it.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:09.76,0:47:11.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Which is some of her artwork.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:12.01,0:47:15.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it gave me strength, it gave me\Na sense of...
Dialogue: 0,0:47:15.37,0:47:18.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because I... in my mind, you know, I have\Nno idea
Dialogue: 0,0:47:18.62,0:47:20.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what Louise Bourgeois' actual\Npractice was,
Dialogue: 0,0:47:20.72,0:47:22.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but I felt that looking at her work
Dialogue: 0,0:47:22.85,0:47:25.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,she wouldn't dick around going
Dialogue: 0,0:47:25.08,0:47:27.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"Oooh, why am I doing this? Oooh, that's a\Nbit mean.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:27.52,0:47:29.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I don't want people to think I'm, \Nyou know.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:29.59,0:47:33.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,She is just making these really full on\Ncreepy...
Dialogue: 0,0:47:33.84,0:47:38.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,She made some giant marble penises and
Dialogue: 0,0:47:38.41,0:47:39.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sort of carried them around.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:39.91,0:47:42.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Always very threatening and weird.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:42.67,0:47:44.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I just thought "You rock Louise.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:44.79,0:47:46.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I'm just gonna pretend that I'm you
Dialogue: 0,0:47:47.17,0:47:49.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for the purpose of writing this book.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:49.71,0:47:51.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So that's one... one of the ways.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:51.41,0:47:55.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then other ways, I have a chapter\Nin there called
Dialogue: 0,0:47:56.17,0:48:00.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think it's called "The Outside Voice\NIn Praise of the Unruly Artist".
Dialogue: 0,0:48:00.76,0:48:03.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I particularly was looking at women\Nartists
Dialogue: 0,0:48:03.44,0:48:05.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who I felt were really...
Dialogue: 0,0:48:07.97,0:48:10.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Louise Bourgeois is that kind of artist\Ntoo,
Dialogue: 0,0:48:10.08,0:48:12.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but a bunch of like contemporary
Dialogue: 0,0:48:12.54,0:48:16.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Australian artists who just seem to me\Nfearless
Dialogue: 0,0:48:16.26,0:48:22.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and unashamed of their instinct. Their art\Ninstinct.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:22.80,0:48:26.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it's very galvanizing and very\Ninspiring
Dialogue: 0,0:48:27.09,0:48:30.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you know, to think, to look at those\Npeople
Dialogue: 0,0:48:30.36,0:48:33.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and think "I'm... I'm gonna do that.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:33.28,0:48:36.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm gonna take charge of my work in that\Nsame way
Dialogue: 0,0:48:36.84,0:48:38.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and not care what other people think\Nof it".
Dialogue: 0,0:48:39.44,0:48:42.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know, of course you do care but
Dialogue: 0,0:48:42.01,0:48:44.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the moment of making it, it's so\Nimportant
Dialogue: 0,0:48:44.27,0:48:47.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to forget about what other people are \Ngonna think of it
Dialogue: 0,0:48:47.76,0:48:49.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because it will just stop you doing\Nanything.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:49.87,0:48:52.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I think that's something that does\Nstop lots of people
Dialogue: 0,0:48:52.72,0:48:55.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from even trying something creative.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:55.19,0:48:56.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But they think "Oh, this is...
Dialogue: 0,0:48:57.34,0:48:58.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this is no good...
Dialogue: 0,0:48:58.37,0:49:00.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so I can't. It can't be allowed.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:00.88,0:49:03.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And you know, another one of Jerry Saltz's
Dialogue: 0,0:49:03.77,0:49:06.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,bits of advice is "Of course it's no good.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:06.49,0:49:08.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Just go do it." You know, "Go make your
Dialogue: 0,0:49:08.35,0:49:10.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,bad art your big baby", that's what he\Nsays.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:11.48,0:49:12.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I love it.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:12.32,0:49:14.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it's so great to just go "Yeah, of\Ncourse it's crap.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:14.94,0:49:18.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So what? Just go". It's very freeing.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:18.30,0:49:19.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,... in both situations it's like a
Dialogue: 0,0:49:19.93,0:49:21.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,feedback loop, isn't it? You think
Dialogue: 0,0:49:21.67,0:49:24.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"Oh, no I won't, it won't be good enough\Nso I just won't do it.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:24.64,0:49:26.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But also what I love at the moment,
Dialogue: 0,0:49:26.34,0:49:28.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I made notes, I put little post-it notes\Nin the book,
Dialogue: 0,0:49:28.28,0:49:29.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when you describe those women, at one\Npoint
Dialogue: 0,0:49:29.94,0:49:31.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you said maybe they're like feral women,
Dialogue: 0,0:49:31.68,0:49:34.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is that the unruly artists many of whom\Nare women
Dialogue: 0,0:49:34.22,0:49:36.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who you admire and you list all the\Nattributes.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:36.32,0:49:38.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and one of them is that they talk about
Dialogue: 0,0:49:38.26,0:49:40.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,themselves and their work in a really\Nstraightforward way.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:40.23,0:49:42.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They're not apologizing, they're not
Dialogue: 0,0:49:42.20,0:49:44.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,contextualizing, they're not thinking\Nabout
Dialogue: 0,0:49:44.09,0:49:45.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,how it's going to be received.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:45.24,0:49:46.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They are not interested in a long game.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:46.37,0:49:48.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And as you say, not interested in\Npleasing other people,
Dialogue: 0,0:49:48.54,0:49:51.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I'm not, I don't mean it in an unkind\Nway.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:51.02,0:49:53.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And those hallmarks feed because of their
Dialogue: 0,0:49:53.40,0:49:54.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,ability to be those people.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:54.85,0:49:57.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,To actually really as you say like exist\Nin themselves.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:57.64,0:49:59.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It informs the work. So there's
Dialogue: 0,0:50:00.28,0:50:02.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,negative feedback loops and positive\Nfeedback loops.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:02.81,0:50:05.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I found that very inspiring and I'm \Nnot a writer,
Dialogue: 0,0:50:05.35,0:50:07.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm not a sculptor, I'm not a painter
Dialogue: 0,0:50:07.07,0:50:10.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but I was like "Yeah, that sounds like\Na really great way to live."
Dialogue: 0,0:50:10.58,0:50:13.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yeah, I love that they just seem so...
Dialogue: 0,0:50:14.39,0:50:17.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and some of these women I've met or I know
Dialogue: 0,0:50:17.51,0:50:21.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I was struck by the complete self\Nacceptance.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:21.56,0:50:23.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And some of this work is really weird.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:23.77,0:50:25.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know, some of the stuff that some of
Dialogue: 0,0:50:25.93,0:50:27.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,these artists make.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:27.44,0:50:30.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But they would speak about it as
Dialogue: 0,0:50:30.68,0:50:32.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,an entirely natural and kind of obvious\Nthing.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:32.85,0:50:35.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But of course, you know Carla Dickens
Dialogue: 0,0:50:35.16,0:50:36.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,an amazing artist,
Dialogue: 0,0:50:37.38,0:50:41.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of course you would cast some underpants\Nin aluminium
Dialogue: 0,0:50:41.94,0:50:45.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and then hang emu feathers and fish hooks\Nof them
Dialogue: 0,0:50:45.94,0:50:48.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and rusty traps.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:48.80,0:50:50.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But what else would you do?
Dialogue: 0,0:50:51.14,0:50:53.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So it's the idea of just going my impulse
Dialogue: 0,0:50:53.94,0:50:57.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is entirely natural and it is...
Dialogue: 0,0:50:58.75,0:51:00.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And why would you even question it.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:00.75,0:51:02.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And you need me first.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:02.26,0:51:04.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I think when you can get to that point
Dialogue: 0,0:51:04.74,0:51:09.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of absolutely trusting your own instinct..
Dialogue: 0,0:51:09.98,0:51:12.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And you know to me, the weirder the better\Nin a way.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:12.58,0:51:14.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because you can always dial back something
Dialogue: 0,0:51:14.66,0:51:17.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like that, but if you're playing it safe\Nall the time,
Dialogue: 0,0:51:18.65,0:51:20.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you just end up with this sort of generic
Dialogue: 0,0:51:21.42,0:51:25.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you know, people pleasy work that doesn't\Nplease anybody.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:25.46,0:51:26.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It doesn't stick around.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:26.62,0:51:28.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And when I think, when I'd had\Nconversations
Dialogue: 0,0:51:28.75,0:51:30.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with people after "The Natural Way of \NThings"
Dialogue: 0,0:51:30.52,0:51:32.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what stuck with people about that,
Dialogue: 0,0:51:32.15,0:51:34.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I know sometimes we get it wrong as\Nreaders.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:34.46,0:51:36.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We talk about story and we talk about plot
Dialogue: 0,0:51:36.05,0:51:37.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and we fixate on them.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:37.23,0:51:39.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But so many people talked about that\Nkind of
Dialogue: 0,0:51:39.96,0:51:41.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when it's, it's like a dream or a \Nnightmare
Dialogue: 0,0:51:41.60,0:51:45.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that space, that luminal space that your\Ncreated on every page.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:45.96,0:51:47.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then we're talking about, you know,
Dialogue: 0,0:51:47.58,0:51:48.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,without saying it, readers were talking
Dialogue: 0,0:51:48.79,0:51:50.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about sentences. They were talking about\Nlanguage.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:50.79,0:51:52.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They were talking about tone.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:52.37,0:51:53.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They were talking about all the things
Dialogue: 0,0:51:53.54,0:51:55.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that you probably agonized about.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:55.30,0:51:56.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But that's what they were responding to,
Dialogue: 0,0:51:56.85,0:51:59.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to that subconscious space in which
Dialogue: 0,0:51:59.48,0:52:01.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,women or people who are a minority
Dialogue: 0,0:52:01.28,0:52:03.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in some way or shape or another thing,
Dialogue: 0,0:52:03.31,0:52:05.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this... this could happen to me.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:05.09,0:52:06.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This has happened to me.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:06.23,0:52:08.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This will happen to me if I speak up,
Dialogue: 0,0:52:08.09,0:52:11.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if I'm dis-empowered more that I already\Nknow that I am.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:11.17,0:52:12.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so you tap into a whole lot of
Dialogue: 0,0:52:12.86,0:52:15.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,conscious and subconscious things with\Nwriting
Dialogue: 0,0:52:15.04,0:52:16.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that as you say that you just went
Dialogue: 0,0:52:16.38,0:52:17.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"I'm gonna be feral about it. I'm just
Dialogue: 0,0:52:17.86,0:52:19.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,gonna write this. It's gonna be weird and
Dialogue: 0,0:52:19.54,0:52:21.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm gonna commit to it. And it has that.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:21.46,0:52:22.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Has that impact.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:22.24,0:52:24.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it took me, it was, you know...
Dialogue: 0,0:52:25.100,0:52:28.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That's why I'm proud of that book because
Dialogue: 0,0:52:28.90,0:52:30.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it taught me how to do that.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:30.78,0:52:34.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know, I couldn't... it... because it\Nwasn't working
Dialogue: 0,0:52:34.14,0:52:35.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,any other way.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:35.04,0:52:36.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It wouldn't work any other way.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:36.54,0:52:39.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So out of just sheer exhaustion in the end
Dialogue: 0,0:52:39.08,0:52:43.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I was like "OK, I'm just gonna go with\Nwhat this thing is".
Dialogue: 0,0:52:43.48,0:52:46.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then it just, phhhh, came sort of\Npouring out.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:46.78,0:52:50.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it was weird and creepy and surreal\Nand dreamlike and...
Dialogue: 0,0:52:51.81,0:52:54.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and... and in the end I loved that.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:54.50,0:52:56.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That's what I liked about it myself.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:56.26,0:53:01.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That's what I found, what I hoped lifted\Nit out of just a bleak
Dialogue: 0,0:53:02.62,0:53:04.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sort of misery tale.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:04.100,0:53:10.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That... that sort of surreal, dreamlike, \Nsymbolic, archetypal
Dialogue: 0,0:53:11.36,0:53:14.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that stuff that made people, a lot of\Npeople told me
Dialogue: 0,0:53:14.78,0:53:17.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they felt they read it with their body,
Dialogue: 0,0:53:17.96,0:53:19.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,rather than their mind.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:19.70,0:53:23.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And... and it felt like I wrote it with my\Nbody.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:24.43,0:53:27.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it had a power because of that,
Dialogue: 0,0:53:27.39,0:53:30.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that I've never felt before as a writer
Dialogue: 0,0:53:30.24,0:53:31.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I didn't want to lose that.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:31.72,0:53:33.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I went sort of looking "What is that?
Dialogue: 0,0:53:33.80,0:53:35.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What happened in that book that I can
Dialogue: 0,0:53:35.75,0:53:38.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sort of take with me now into the future?"
Dialogue: 0,0:53:38.82,0:53:41.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So it's like, it's a gift for you and\Na gift for us.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:41.26,0:53:42.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm conscious of the time.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:42.52,0:53:44.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We have got a couple of questions here
Dialogue: 0,0:53:44.40,0:53:46.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I want to put them to you.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:46.48,0:53:49.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,One person has said "You've stopped me
Dialogue: 0,0:53:49.86,0:53:51.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in my tracks with your thought of staying
Dialogue: 0,0:53:51.86,0:53:53.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with the book that I don't actually enjoy.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:53.54,0:53:55.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What is it in reading that gives us such
Dialogue: 0,0:53:55.48,0:53:58.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,strong reactions: like, dislike, relate,\Nresent"?
Dialogue: 0,0:54:01.54,0:54:05.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, I don't know. I think sometimes it's\Nrecognition.
Dialogue: 0,0:54:05.88,0:54:07.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And in the chapter that I talk about
Dialogue: 0,0:54:08.39,0:54:09.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the paintings that I didn't like,
Dialogue: 0,0:54:09.98,0:54:12.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I was forced to kind of go "Well what is\Nit, why don't I like them"?
Dialogue: 0,0:54:12.96,0:54:15.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And partly it was, they were unfamiliar
Dialogue: 0,0:54:15.34,0:54:19.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I didn't... I felt kind of...
Dialogue: 0,0:54:20.94,0:54:23.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I felt slightly ashamed that I could not\Nsee
Dialogue: 0,0:54:23.65,0:54:26.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what it was that other people saw in these\Npictures.
Dialogue: 0,0:54:26.22,0:54:28.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because I knew in artists that I very much\Nadmire
Dialogue: 0,0:54:28.51,0:54:30.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,very well know and just had chosen those
Dialogue: 0,0:54:30.53,0:54:32.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,pictures by different people.
Dialogue: 0,0:54:33.40,0:54:36.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so I felt sort of like "Oh there must\Nbe something wrong with me
Dialogue: 0,0:54:36.85,0:54:40.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that I don't see what all these people
Dialogue: 0,0:54:40.40,0:54:42.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,think is so great about these pictures".
Dialogue: 0,0:54:42.31,0:54:45.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So it was a feeling of an almost,\Na kind of
Dialogue: 0,0:54:45.32,0:54:49.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a fine fine strand of anger that I...
Dialogue: 0,0:54:50.05,0:54:52.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I didn't want to be made to feel like\Nan idiot.
Dialogue: 0,0:54:52.69,0:54:54.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So therefore I would just reject the\Npictures
Dialogue: 0,0:54:54.86,0:54:59.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,instead of thinking "Well, doesn't really\Nmatter
Dialogue: 0,0:54:59.30,0:55:03.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that I don't understand, but I shouldn't\Njust reject it
Dialogue: 0,0:55:03.93,0:55:06.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because I don't understand it".
Dialogue: 0,0:55:07.40,0:55:10.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I also think... I mean I do think...
Dialogue: 0,0:55:11.08,0:55:13.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I also don't finish every book I start.
Dialogue: 0,0:55:13.55,0:55:17.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If I'm really really bored I don't.
Dialogue: 0,0:55:17.60,0:55:19.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That's a sign that I'm... you know...
Dialogue: 0,0:55:19.39,0:55:20.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you know, there are a lot of bad books\Nout there.
Dialogue: 0,0:55:20.95,0:55:22.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I don't think we should read bad books.
Dialogue: 0,0:55:22.84,0:55:25.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I guess, I wanted to make a\Ndistinction between
Dialogue: 0,0:55:25.62,0:55:28.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a book that isn't very good rather than
Dialogue: 0,0:55:28.77,0:55:30.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,one that makes you feel bad.
Dialogue: 0,0:55:30.88,0:55:32.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because if it actually does make you feel\Nbad
Dialogue: 0,0:55:32.90,0:55:34.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then it's doing something.
Dialogue: 0,0:55:34.68,0:55:36.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know Christos Tsiolkas's books, \Nyou know,
Dialogue: 0,0:55:37.54,0:55:42.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I have always read Christos and almost
Dialogue: 0,0:55:42.50,0:55:46.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,always felt really uncomfortable and \Nreally
Dialogue: 0,0:55:46.85,0:55:48.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like "I don't want to be with these \Npeople.
Dialogue: 0,0:55:48.97,0:55:51.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I don't want to be in dead Europe, in this
Dialogue: 0,0:55:51.34,0:55:54.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you know, really dark and scary place.
Dialogue: 0,0:55:54.52,0:55:56.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I don't want to be with these, you know,\Narseholes
Dialogue: 0,0:55:56.95,0:55:58.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in this land".
Dialogue: 0,0:55:59.93,0:56:02.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And yet, there's something very compelling\Nabout it
Dialogue: 0,0:56:02.62,0:56:04.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and also it showed me about the world
Dialogue: 0,0:56:04.94,0:56:07.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in ways that I didn't, you know...
Dialogue: 0,0:56:07.36,0:56:09.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Just because it wasn't nice, didn't mean
Dialogue: 0,0:56:09.84,0:56:11.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that I shouldn't go there.
Dialogue: 0,0:56:11.94,0:56:14.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It also seems like an unrealistic request\Nof
Dialogue: 0,0:56:14.71,0:56:16.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of fiction, which is, you know,
Dialogue: 0,0:56:16.52,0:56:18.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,written by real people in the world
Dialogue: 0,0:56:18.54,0:56:19.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that it should all be pleasant
Dialogue: 0,0:56:19.97,0:56:22.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Like, life isn't pleasant and all kinds of\Nthings aren't pleasant.
Dialogue: 0,0:56:22.91,0:56:25.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it's boring! I mean pleasantness is, \Nyou know...
Dialogue: 0,0:56:25.48,0:56:26.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yeah.
Dialogue: 0,0:56:26.20,0:56:28.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That's what the Truman Show was about,\Nright?
Dialogue: 0,0:56:28.20,0:56:30.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Like you need, you need
Dialogue: 0,0:56:30.11,0:56:32.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the grit in the oyster.
Dialogue: 0,0:56:33.40,0:56:37.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You need the discomfort, \Nit's part of living
Dialogue: 0,0:56:37.42,0:56:44.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And, yeah... but as I say if it's just\Ndull then...
Dialogue: 0,0:56:45.23,0:56:47.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You're allowed to put it aside, yeah.
Dialogue: 0,0:56:47.69,0:56:49.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There's another question here
Dialogue: 0,0:56:49.32,0:56:51.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"How important is the responder to\Ncreativity?
Dialogue: 0,0:56:52.20,0:56:54.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Can you create without a responder"?
Dialogue: 0,0:56:54.56,0:56:57.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm assuming that would mean like a\Nreader or a viewer or something.
Dialogue: 0,0:56:57.33,0:56:58.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm thinking mainly of the artists you\Nmentioned
Dialogue: 0,0:56:58.96,0:57:00.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who need someone to see the work
Dialogue: 0,0:57:00.61,0:57:02.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as it's being done.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:03.28,0:57:07.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, Jude and I, that artist and I talked\Nabout
Dialogue: 0,0:57:07.74,0:57:11.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this thing of "Would you keep making work\Nif no one saw it"?
Dialogue: 0,0:57:12.14,0:57:14.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And she said "I feel like the reason you
Dialogue: 0,0:57:14.93,0:57:17.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have shows as an artist is because you\Nneed to...
Dialogue: 0,0:57:17.77,0:57:19.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you need someone to see it".
Dialogue: 0,0:57:20.36,0:57:28.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I feel as a writer that if I wrote\Nbooks
Dialogue: 0,0:57:28.35,0:57:30.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I knew that they were never gonna be\Npublished
Dialogue: 0,0:57:30.76,0:57:33.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in some form, even if I, you know,
Dialogue: 0,0:57:33.38,0:57:35.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,publishing yourself is publishing,
Dialogue: 0,0:57:35.24,0:57:37.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but if I thought no one is ever going to\Nread this,
Dialogue: 0,0:57:38.84,0:57:44.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,personally I don't know that I would keep\Ngoing.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:45.53,0:57:47.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I don't think other people should stop
Dialogue: 0,0:57:47.71,0:57:49.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,writing if no one is gonna read their\Nwork.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:49.66,0:57:51.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because there's so much that comes...
Dialogue: 0,0:57:52.36,0:57:54.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you know the main reason I do it is to
Dialogue: 0,0:57:56.06,0:57:58.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,find out what I think, you know,\Nabout the world.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:58.73,0:58:03.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,To find out what are my preoccupations and
Dialogue: 0,0:58:04.38,0:58:06.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Edna O'Brien said "People become artists
Dialogue: 0,0:58:06.83,0:58:09.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because they have an intensity of feeling
Dialogue: 0,0:58:09.66,0:58:12.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that normal life cannot accommodate".
Dialogue: 0,0:58:12.21,0:58:15.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I absolutely feel that that's true\Nfor me.
Dialogue: 0,0:58:15.63,0:58:19.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And yet, if noone was ever going to read\Nit
Dialogue: 0,0:58:20.03,0:58:24.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I feel like I wouldn't know if it worked\Nif no one read it.
Dialogue: 0,0:58:26.04,0:58:28.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So for me, it's certainly the other half
Dialogue: 0,0:58:28.56,0:58:30.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the creation is the reader.
Dialogue: 0,0:58:31.90,0:58:33.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I imagine that painters...
Dialogue: 0,0:58:33.66,0:58:35.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,although I know a couple of painters who
Dialogue: 0,0:58:35.70,0:58:38.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,paint and never exhibit, you know, \Nby choice.
Dialogue: 0,0:58:38.58,0:58:43.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I guess it just depends on the person,\Nthe creator.
Dialogue: 0,0:58:43.66,0:58:47.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I personally, I need someone to \Nsee it.
Dialogue: 0,0:58:48.23,0:58:49.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Very much so. I understand.
Dialogue: 0,0:58:49.95,0:58:51.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We're pretty much at the end of our time,
Dialogue: 0,0:58:51.90,0:58:53.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but I wanted to ask you one last question,
Dialogue: 0,0:58:53.69,0:58:55.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which relates exactly to what you were\Njust talking about
Dialogue: 0,0:58:55.36,0:58:57.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is that as we've talked about\Ntonight
Dialogue: 0,0:58:57.28,0:58:58.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you know there are chapters and ideas\Nin the book
Dialogue: 0,0:58:58.86,0:59:01.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that speak directly to artists \Nand writers.
Dialogue: 0,0:59:01.63,0:59:04.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But how do you think readers who are,
Dialogue: 0,0:59:04.17,0:59:06.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what do you think readers who are not\Nwriters
Dialogue: 0,0:59:06.28,0:59:09.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,can learn from the book? What do you hope\Nthey'll take away from it?
Dialogue: 0,0:59:10.100,0:59:13.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What I would love, is for...
Dialogue: 0,0:59:15.47,0:59:19.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,my fantasy reader for this book is
Dialogue: 0,0:59:21.31,0:59:24.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,someone like a policymaker in some really\Nimportant area
Dialogue: 0,0:59:24.73,0:59:29.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or... or an industry leader or something,
Dialogue: 0,0:59:29.92,0:59:33.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where... to start to understand that
Dialogue: 0,0:59:33.15,0:59:38.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,cross pollinating from other things very\Nunlike yours
Dialogue: 0,0:59:39.72,0:59:44.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,can really enrich your own area of \Nexpertise.
Dialogue: 0,0:59:45.56,0:59:49.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, and I had this little pang a few weeks\Nago
Dialogue: 0,0:59:49.38,0:59:52.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,thinking about "Imagine if at the\Nbeginning of the pandemic
Dialogue: 0,0:59:52.71,0:59:58.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we got the best visual artists, actors,
Dialogue: 0,0:59:59.31,1:00:01.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sports people, industry leaders,
Dialogue: 0,1:00:01.69,1:00:03.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,scientist, researchers, health people,
Dialogue: 0,1:00:03.98,1:00:05.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,writers.
Dialogue: 0,1:00:07.06,1:00:09.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The best of every field together and said
Dialogue: 0,1:00:09.94,1:00:11.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"What are we gonna do about this?"
Dialogue: 0,1:00:11.57,1:00:14.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"How can we work together to solve, attack\Nthis problem?"
Dialogue: 0,1:00:15.29,1:00:19.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I feel like we would have had so many\Namazing new
Dialogue: 0,1:00:21.87,1:00:24.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,projects and policies and connections.
Dialogue: 0,1:00:24.24,1:00:26.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And you know a big hallmark of creativity,
Dialogue: 0,1:00:26.60,1:00:29.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of creative thinking is the joining of \Nunlike things.
Dialogue: 0,1:00:29.69,1:00:31.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I think most of the time in our
Dialogue: 0,1:00:31.53,1:00:33.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,contemporary society we... we don't...
Dialogue: 0,1:00:34.27,1:00:38.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we actually actively resist creativity\Nwhen we see it.
Dialogue: 0,1:00:38.51,1:00:39.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We don't like it.
Dialogue: 0,1:00:40.46,1:00:42.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And one of the ways we do that is by\Nsaying
Dialogue: 0,1:00:42.90,1:00:44.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"Creativity is for artists".
Dialogue: 0,1:00:44.43,1:00:47.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So we put it over there and they can hang\Nit on their walls
Dialogue: 0,1:00:47.20,1:00:49.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and it's just the thing on the side that's
Dialogue: 0,1:00:49.21,1:00:52.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,kind of pretty but doesn't mean anything\Nabout the way we actually live.
Dialogue: 0,1:00:52.98,1:00:55.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I want to bring that right into the\Nway we actually live.
Dialogue: 0,1:00:55.97,1:00:57.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because it's... it's crucial.
Dialogue: 0,1:00:57.94,1:01:00.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Like radical creativity is the only thing
Dialogue: 0,1:01:00.36,1:01:03.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that is going to save us now. I really\Nfeel that.
Dialogue: 0,1:01:04.10,1:01:05.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that cross pollinating...
Dialogue: 0,1:01:07.40,1:01:09.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,cross pollinating ideas...
Dialogue: 0,1:01:09.42,1:01:12.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a real embrace... embrace and tolerance\Nof failure
Dialogue: 0,1:01:13.30,1:01:15.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because we... we just utterly reject...
Dialogue: 0,1:01:16.00,1:01:18.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the... the possibility of failure, which\Nmeans
Dialogue: 0,1:01:18.38,1:01:21.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we so often don't develop really good\Nthings
Dialogue: 0,1:01:21.70,1:01:24.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because, you know, we decide they're \Nnot gonna work
Dialogue: 0,1:01:24.33,1:01:26.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,before they've even had a chance to grow.
Dialogue: 0,1:01:27.73,1:01:30.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know, I have a long manifesto of\Nthings
Dialogue: 0,1:01:30.04,1:01:31.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that I think should happen more.
Dialogue: 0,1:01:32.42,1:01:34.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And not rejecting things because
Dialogue: 0,1:01:34.50,1:01:36.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they don't work at first.
Dialogue: 0,1:01:37.52,1:01:39.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that can go for a cake, you know,
Dialogue: 0,1:01:39.62,1:01:44.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it can go for a... learning scales on\Na piano.
Dialogue: 0,1:01:44.38,1:01:47.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It could go for developing a really cool\Nbusiness idea.
Dialogue: 0,1:01:48.47,1:01:51.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I just would love for us to open up more
Dialogue: 0,1:01:52.02,1:01:56.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to the unknowing and they mystery and the\Nuncertainty
Dialogue: 0,1:01:56.71,1:01:59.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that is the place where creativity comes\Nfrom.
Dialogue: 0,1:02:00.41,1:02:02.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You've done that really beautifully in the\Nbook.
Dialogue: 0,1:02:02.52,1:02:05.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It shakes us up. It reminds us why we love\Nart.
Dialogue: 0,1:02:05.14,1:02:06.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Why we need art.
Dialogue: 0,1:02:06.48,1:02:08.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And how it can kind of re-shape the way\Nwe see the world
Dialogue: 0,1:02:08.92,1:02:09.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and therefore re-shape us.
Dialogue: 0,1:02:09.96,1:02:11.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Help us imagine things differently.
Dialogue: 0,1:02:11.82,1:02:13.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Charlotte, thank you very much.
Dialogue: 0,1:02:13.52,1:02:15.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Congratulations on the book and I'm\Nhanding back over
Dialogue: 0,1:02:15.64,1:02:16.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to Danielle Ainsley.
Dialogue: 0,1:02:16.82,1:02:19.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Thank you Michaela for your very beautiful\Nquestions.
Dialogue: 0,1:02:19.31,1:02:21.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And can I say your beautiful voice.
Dialogue: 0,1:02:21.41,1:02:23.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Oh my God, I could listen to you just all\Nday.
Dialogue: 0,1:02:23.98,1:02:24.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Thank you.
Dialogue: 0,1:02:24.93,1:02:25.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I second that.
Dialogue: 0,1:02:25.90,1:02:28.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Thank you very much despite my little\Ndry coughing random.
Dialogue: 0,1:02:28.69,1:02:30.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It just added to the allure.
Dialogue: 0,1:02:31.68,1:02:34.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well thank you so much to both of you.
Dialogue: 0,1:02:34.60,1:02:37.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I really appreciate you both taking the\Ntime out
Dialogue: 0,1:02:37.42,1:02:40.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to... yeah let us in on this great\Nconversation.
Dialogue: 0,1:02:40.34,1:02:44.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I had a really lovely time and I'm sure\Nothers did as well.
Dialogue: 0,1:02:45.66,1:02:47.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, in a moment you'll see a survey
Dialogue: 0,1:02:48.18,1:02:49.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,pop up on your screen.
Dialogue: 0,1:02:49.23,1:02:51.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's very short only four questions.
Dialogue: 0,1:02:51.00,1:02:53.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We'd love feedback if you could spare
Dialogue: 0,1:02:53.84,1:02:55.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the moment to do that for us.
Dialogue: 0,1:02:56.29,1:02:59.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now you can purchase copies of the\N"Luminous Solution"
Dialogue: 0,1:02:59.57,1:03:01.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,at our local bookshops
Dialogue: 0,1:03:01.05,1:03:04.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and at the moment a few are running
Dialogue: 0,1:03:04.20,1:03:05.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a "Click and Collect" service.
Dialogue: 0,1:03:05.96,1:03:08.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So Oscar and Friends in Double Bay\Nis running
Dialogue: 0,1:03:08.58,1:03:11.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a click and collect service if you're\Nwanting to do that.
Dialogue: 0,1:03:11.04,1:03:14.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Otherwise, the Woollahra Bookshop on\NSpicer St,
Dialogue: 0,1:03:15.02,1:03:18.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Harry Harthog's and Gertrude and Alice in\NBondi,
Dialogue: 0,1:03:18.76,1:03:23.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and Read On Books at Westfield Eastgardens\Nas well.
Dialogue: 0,1:03:23.30,1:03:26.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Otherwise you can purchase copies of the\N"Luminous Solution"
Dialogue: 0,1:03:26.14,1:03:29.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on Booktopia if you're not local and we've\Ngot links
Dialogue: 0,1:03:29.81,1:03:31.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the chat as well.
Dialogue: 0,1:03:31.58,1:03:34.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And we've also got copies of all of\NCharlotte's
Dialogue: 0,1:03:34.21,1:03:37.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,books in our collections and they are\Navailable right now
Dialogue: 0,1:03:38.48,1:03:40.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as an e-resource if you wanted
Dialogue: 0,1:03:40.34,1:03:44.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or as a physical book via click \Nand collect as well.
Dialogue: 0,1:03:44.97,1:03:46.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Thanks so much everyone.
Dialogue: 0,1:03:46.27,1:03:49.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We hope you have a lovely rest of your\Nevening.
Dialogue: 0,1:03:49.97,1:03:51.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Thank you very much.
Dialogue: 0,1:03:51.02,1:03:52.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Take care everyone.