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Hello!

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And welcome everybody.

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My name is Danielle Ainsley

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and on behalf of Woollahra, Randwick[br]and Waverly Libraries

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it's a pleasure to have you all joining us[br]this evening.

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It's also a pleasure to welcome both

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Charlotte Wood and Michela Kalowski[br]as well.

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Now, before we get started, I do want to [br]acknowledge

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the traditional owners of the land on[br]which I currently stand

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the Gadigal and Birrabirragal people

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of the Eora nation

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and pay my respects to elders past,[br]present and emerging.

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It's also a pleasure to welcome both

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Michaela Kalowski and Charlotte tonight.

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So Michaela is an interviewer, moderator[br]and presenter.

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She's interviewed writers and thinkers

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from the worlds of arts, science and[br]politics.

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And recent highlights include Margaret[br]Atwood,

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Trent Dalton, Stan Grant,[br]and Richard Fidler.

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She has conducted radio interviews for ABC

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and in June last year curated The Big[br]Weekend of Books,

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ABC Radio National's first ever on air

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Writers' Festival.

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Now Michaela regularly facilitates

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panels and conducts interviews at writers'[br]festivals

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universities and community organizations[br]as well.

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Now, Charlotte is an award winning author

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of 6 novels and 2 non-fiction books

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and I'm sure there's more there that[br]I haven't even...

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haven't even counted.

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She has won the Stella Prize, the Prime[br]Minister's Literary Award,

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the Indie Book of the Year

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and most recently

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the Literary Fiction Book of the Year

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in the Australian Book Industry Awards.

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Her most recent book is this one,

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which I have right next to me, [br]there we go.

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"The Luminous Solution: Creativity,[br]Resilience and the Inner Life".

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And we have the pleasure of hearing more[br]about that tonight.

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Now, hand it over to Michaela.

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Thank you Danielle.

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It's very very lovely to be here with[br]everyone this evening.

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I do always wish we could be together[br]in person

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but it's lovely wherever you are around[br]the country.

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It's great to be with you and wonderful

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to be in conversation with Charlotte Wood.

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I wanted to start by saying that this book

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is a really beautiful kind of hybrid of[br]things.

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It's a book that explores really what it

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means to be a writer or to create

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and woven through the book are also life[br]lessons,

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insights that Charlotte came to while [br]studying craft

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or talking to other writers and thinking[br]about creativity.

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And tonight I wanted to ask her about

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all of these 3 things.

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Some of the discussion will be about those[br]life lessons,

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she learnt from writing, others will be

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questions about her writing life

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and the creative lives of others.

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And I'll also speak with her about

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how ideas that relate to creativity can

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help the rest of us navigate our lives.

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Charlotte, welcome.

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Thank you so much Michaela.

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And thank you everyone for coming on this

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Friday night, which seems to me a big

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sacrifice for you, but it's a great joy[br]for me.

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And I'll just say that I'm joining you[br]from

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Bullanaming, the area of Sydney that's

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known as Marrickville now.

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And I pay my respects to their [br]elders of course.

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Wonderful.

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I wanted to start, like I said to you[br]before

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I promise it's not a lazy question,

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but it's always better from the.. [br]from the mouth of the author herself,

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if you could talk..

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If you could tell us just a little bit for

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people who haven't read [br]"The Luminous Solution"

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because it's only just been, you know, [br]brought in to the world.

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What.. what you explore in the book?

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And who it is for?

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Thank you. It is a book about sort of

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the nature and texture of creativity[br]I suppose.

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Of course, from my own perspective,[br]primarily.

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But also from what I've observed of other

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people's creative impulse over the..

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I keep saying 20 years, but I think it's[br]actually 30 years

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I've been writing books.

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And I've always really been fascinated[br]by the creative process

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and the creative impulse and why people[br]have it and how it works.

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And with this book I wanted to sort of[br]bring together

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all the scattered thoughts that I'd had

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over many many years.

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Sometimes I'd written about it,

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other times I'd just had jottings in my[br]notebook.

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I wanted to bring these thoughts together

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to see if they formed any sort of

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coherent idea

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but also to see what a discussion of

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creativity in general might have to offer

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a wider readership than just writers or[br]artists.

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Because I do feel very, maybe romantically

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strongly about the

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the pleasures and the satisfactions and[br]the deep human joy of...

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that comes from making something

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that wasn't there before you made it.

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And that might be making a cake,

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it might be making a garden,

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it might be knitting, it might be singing[br]in a choir.

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I just think there's something really[br]fundamental in us

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that... that... that gets something very[br]profound

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out of that creative expression.

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And the process even more than [br]the outcome.

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So I wanted to look at that in lots of[br]different ways

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from.. from my years of writing and then

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looking at increasingly

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sort of interested in the cross [br]pollination

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that comes from the other art forms,

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other.. other fields of expertise[br]altogether.

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I wanted to ask it, when you're at the..

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very at the beginning of the book

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you do start with the first lockdown last[br]year.

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The first chapter begins and you talk[br]about

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how your garden is in disrepair and maybe

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the garden reflects your inner state.

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But you talk about your inner state,

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you talk about your inner life as a writer[br]which I wanted to ask you about.

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But you talk about the inner life [br]generally.

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You're sort of pondering that.

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And I.. The question you.. you propose is

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what might feed a prosperous inner life.

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And I wondered if you could describe

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the elements of rich inner life in your[br]experience?

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I mean... it sort of when I started[br]writing about the inner life

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and then I thought: What is it anyway?

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What does mean to have an inner life?

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Or a rich inner life? Or sort of[br]interesting inner life?

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And I thought over time that maybe

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the inner life could be described as

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a sense of your mind as a place to go to

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and a place where you can develop

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your own original thoughts and feelings

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about things without having everything

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fed to you from the outside world.

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And.. and I said it in that piece[br]Fertile Ground that..

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which is the first chapter of the book

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that there are things that threaten

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a sort of rich inner life and things that[br]nourish it.

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And that for writers and artists

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the inner life is really inseparable from[br]our work.

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Sort of where we live, you know in our

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professional, while we're making our work.

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So, you know I was looking at what...

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and what's written as you say at the

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sort of, I think it was about 3 weeks[br]into the first lockdown

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where I was just in a state of panic.

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I don't know about everybody else,

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but you know I see myself as a fairly calm

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and rational person,

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but I was not calm or rational then.

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And I was in that sense of just...

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Just sort of not being able to focus[br]properly,

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not being able to even really makes sense

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of what was happening.

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Because none of us knew it was such a

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world shattering event that we were[br]facing.

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You know, turned out that for me,

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my life was completely fine, but back then

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I didn't know that was going to be[br]the case.

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So I realized that I, I'd sort of

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in response that I'd been rushing around

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just sort of filling myself up with things

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that I thought were sort of meaningful.

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Like, you know yoga and books and films[br]and...

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I didn't quite get to sourdough bread[br]making

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but I did a lot of cooking.

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Banana bread maybe?

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I'm now into, massively into making [br]biscuits,

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which is a terrible thing really because[br]then I had to eat them all.

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But, it was that sense of, well I might be

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doing all these things that we see as[br]meaningful,

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but I still just cramming them in.

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I may as well be just eating junk food

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in the way that I'm sort of taking[br]these things into myself.

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So I just sat up here where I thought

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I just need to stop. Just still.

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Go quiet. Settle down.

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Figure out what I actually need,

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what I want and how to just go back to[br]a sense of, sort of

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some kind of

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the peacefulness that actually was

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available to me if I chose to have it.

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So then I was looking at, well what[br]threatens

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my creativity which to me is inseparable[br]from me in an inner life

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an what nourishes it.

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And I guess the nourishment is always

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and I have to keep re-learning this,

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which is extremely annoying but it just[br]seems to be the way it is.

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Very comforting for us as readers,

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I'm like "She's been writing for 30 years

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and she keeps having to re-learn this[br]lesson, I'm fine".

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Yeah, I have no idea, what I'm doing 90%[br]of the time,

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but... it, the nourishing stuff[br]is firstly

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making your decision to choose to feed[br]that inner life.

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And then secondly saying, well what is[br]nourishment and what is not.

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So what is not nourishment is endless

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indiscriminate time on the internet,[br]on my phone.

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And I fall into that trap, you know as[br]easily as anybody,

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which is sort of probably a bit shaming[br]to admit

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for a writer who is supposed to be very

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I mean, I think there was a sense last[br]year that

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we writers should be able to just

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slot back into our normal working routine

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because this is where we live, you know,

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I work at home all the time.

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I didn't have children to home school.

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I didn't actually have any...

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There was nothing rational about the

0:10:04.318,0:10:06.028
disruption that happened to me.

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Whereas other people, their lives were[br]really turned upside down.

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And yet, still I, I found it so difficult[br]to focus.

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So I went back to the very basic things,

0:10:17.929,0:10:22.189
which is orderly physical world.

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You know, house that's sort of under

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some sort of control mess-wise.

0:10:26.386,0:10:27.741
Food in the fridge.

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Exercise.

0:10:29.241,0:10:31.204
Going to bed early. Getting up early.

0:10:31.584,0:10:33.788
Eating decently etc.

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And really, those physical things are[br]really important

0:10:39.005,0:10:43.865
to nourish and.. what I would call a rich

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inner... inner world, inner life.

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And the.. the things that threaten it are

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just sort of feeding rubbish into my mind,[br]I guess.

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And that means, all you know that sort of

0:10:58.015,0:11:01.555
just doom scrolling, too much current[br]affairs and news,

0:11:01.555,0:11:02.877
too much television,

0:11:04.006,0:11:07.796
even sort of reading in that cramming[br]sort of way,

0:11:07.796,0:11:10.766
thinking "Oh, I've got a.. my "to be read[br]pile" is... you know,

0:11:10.766,0:11:14.296
gotta be as cool and interesting as other[br]people's on Instagram.

0:11:14.296,0:11:18.176
So, just really settling right down and[br]thinking

0:11:18.176,0:11:20.678
"What do I want in my mind?"

0:11:20.824,0:11:23.014
"And what do I want out of my mind?"

0:11:23.014,0:11:26.585
And in a way, I think it's almost as[br]simple as that.

0:11:26.639,0:11:28.429
Deciding that you have choices about

0:11:28.429,0:11:31.570
what goes into your inner life and what[br]you keep out.

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It's a beautiful description, a really[br]powerful description.

0:11:35.528,0:11:37.358
When it.. throughout the book and it's

0:11:37.358,0:11:40.668
an idea you introduced that early on,

0:11:40.668,0:11:43.288
is this tussle we feel between the inner[br]life

0:11:43.288,0:11:47.288
and the modern life but also consumerist[br]life, a capitalist life

0:11:47.552,0:11:52.382
that wants us to keep on eating yoga[br]classes like we are just at a buffet

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and we just can't stop.

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Who want us just to churn through, through[br]content.

0:11:55.858,0:11:57.742
Yes, because then we have to go and buy

0:11:57.742,0:11:59.562
yoga mats and yoga clothes... and...

0:12:00.768,0:12:02.188
Yoga hairbands, yoga masks..

0:12:02.369,0:12:06.309
Yoga hairbands. And then think, "Oh, [br]actually yoga is not quite enough.

0:12:06.489,0:12:08.179
I should do some pilates and yoga."

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And, you know. And I think I said in that[br]essay

0:12:10.939,0:12:14.044
that I think panic is.. is what capitalism

0:12:14.044,0:12:15.034
loves best.

0:12:15.034,0:12:18.684
It's just that, if we panic, then we just

0:12:18.684,0:12:22.774
clutch at anything, you know, that we[br]think will help.

0:12:22.774,0:12:25.049
And, you know, I have to keep saying,

0:12:25.049,0:12:28.809
I am, I am terrible with all of this, it's[br]not...

0:12:29.086,0:12:31.036
So having written this book, you might

0:12:31.036,0:12:33.235
think that I, you know, have a very

0:12:33.634,0:12:35.114
anti-consumerist life.

0:12:35.114,0:12:37.484
But I fall into all that crap as easily

0:12:37.484,0:12:40.541
as a next person, when I'm not being

0:12:41.734,0:12:45.734
thoughtful about it really. It's as simple[br]as that.

0:12:45.890,0:12:48.200
I wanted to stay with some of these[br]kind of

0:12:48.200,0:12:52.040
almost kind of bigger ideas of...[br]of insights you're thinking about

0:12:52.040,0:12:54.434
that.. that struck me as kind of[br]life lessons.

0:12:54.434,0:12:57.114
One that really intrigued me, [br]is in the book.

0:12:57.114,0:13:01.114
The idea of the... creative person[br]has a vision

0:13:01.114,0:13:02.738
that they see in their mind.

0:13:02.738,0:13:05.268
Then they sit down to write it or they sit[br]to paint it

0:13:05.268,0:13:06.378
and it.. it evaporates.

0:13:06.378,0:13:09.380
It's a beautiful description to use from[br]Virginia Woolf's "To the Lighthouse".

0:13:09.380,0:13:11.702
And the painter who has that experience.

0:13:11.702,0:13:14.152
And I wondered about how you find ways

0:13:14.152,0:13:15.709
to translate your vision to the page.

0:13:15.709,0:13:18.085
And you write about that in a lot of[br]detail in the book.

0:13:18.085,0:13:20.232
But I wondered how... how might the rest [br]of us

0:13:20.232,0:13:21.930
get more familiar with that relationship

0:13:21.930,0:13:24.627
between an idea and how we bring it[br]to life.

0:13:27.057,0:13:30.587
Yeah. I love the idea that people might

0:13:30.587,0:13:35.100
start opening up a little to.. to the[br]uncertainty

0:13:35.100,0:13:38.250
that is central to the creative process.

0:13:38.530,0:13:41.240
Because I think a lot of the time people[br]start doing...

0:13:41.240,0:13:44.010
you know... they want to.. they want to [br]write their memoir

0:13:44.010,0:13:46.230
or they want to learn to play music

0:13:46.230,0:13:48.610
or you know.. write a screen play

0:13:48.610,0:13:51.017
or.. even knit or something.

0:13:51.439,0:13:56.119
And when it gets hard, which is all the[br]time

0:13:56.119,0:13:58.049
and especially at the beginning,

0:13:58.049,0:14:03.379
I think a lot of people think "Oh, what[br]I'm producing here is... is terrible,

0:14:03.379,0:14:07.379
therefore, I don't belong in this space.

0:14:07.379,0:14:09.848
You know. "I... Therefore, I can't do [br]this".

0:14:10.167,0:14:13.347
And what is absolutely, you know, at the[br]heart

0:14:13.347,0:14:17.187
of any creative endeavor is... is that[br]failure

0:14:17.187,0:14:21.297
that is. It's, you know... I know there[br]are writer friends

0:14:21.585,0:14:26.325
watching this and they will be, you know,[br]sadly nodding their heads.

0:14:26.698,0:14:30.298
That, that uncertainty, doubt, not[br]knowing,

0:14:30.298,0:14:32.865
failing most of the time.

0:14:33.699,0:14:38.544
Living in a... in a... in a very [br]uncomfortable uncertainty

0:14:39.158,0:14:42.107
is actually, that's where artists live.

0:14:42.107,0:14:44.949
That's, that's what creativity is.

0:14:45.452,0:14:49.774
And you kind of have to go into uncertain[br]space

0:14:50.325,0:14:53.105
in order to find something new and[br]something

0:14:53.105,0:14:56.366
that hasn't been done before in quite the[br]same way.

0:14:57.129,0:14:59.557
And of course there are skills that you[br]can learn.

0:14:59.557,0:15:00.957
So if you learn to knit...

0:15:00.957,0:15:03.437
I... I once was a very very bad knitter

0:15:03.437,0:15:06.923
and gave it away to stop offending the[br]world

0:15:06.923,0:15:08.928
with my terrible creations.

0:15:10.099,0:15:13.606
But, you know, that's only... Because I [br]didn't... I didn't want it enough.

0:15:13.606,0:15:15.886
I think that's the other thing when

0:15:15.886,0:15:19.886
if you want to do something well, you have[br]to want it enough

0:15:19.897,0:15:23.104
to really commit to it, to learn[br]how to do it.

0:15:23.276,0:15:25.963
And so I feel like the idea of the [br]apprenticeship

0:15:27.212,0:15:30.242
it's a really good way to think about a[br]creative life.

0:15:30.242,0:15:35.304
I feel like... So I've written 8 books,[br]9 books now,

0:15:36.393,0:15:39.889
I feel like I'm just starting to get[br]a handle on

0:15:40.362,0:15:42.242
how to do some things.

0:15:42.242,0:15:46.120
But I feel like I'm in this apprenticeship[br]forever.

0:15:46.989,0:15:49.899
I never feel that I know what I'm doing.

0:15:49.899,0:15:51.679
I never feel that...

0:15:51.846,0:15:54.416
You know, I never write something down[br]the first draft

0:15:54.416,0:15:56.517
and go "Ah, perfect!"

0:15:57.000,0:15:58.385
Never, never, never.

0:15:59.033,0:16:02.023
Sometimes, I think "Oh, I like that image

0:16:02.023,0:16:04.233
or there is something there that... that

0:16:04.933,0:16:08.933
calls at me and interests me, it doesn't[br]make any sense,

0:16:09.697,0:16:13.697
but now after all these years I recognize[br]that as a good impulse.

0:16:13.697,0:16:15.487
I know to follow that.

0:16:15.487,0:16:17.732
And there's a chapter in the book,

0:16:18.477,0:16:21.463
which the subtitle is "Nine Creative Ways[br]to Think"

0:16:21.675,0:16:25.265
and... and it's one of those 9 methods of[br]thinking

0:16:25.393,0:16:27.370
is something called "heat seeking".

0:16:27.823,0:16:31.823
And that "heat seeking" I feel like is[br]at the real heart of...

0:16:31.823,0:16:35.403
certainly of my writing impulse.

0:16:36.170,0:16:38.443
And partly becoming a more experienced

0:16:38.443,0:16:41.829
writer is just learning to... to obey that

0:16:41.829,0:16:43.241
impulse to follow that heat.

0:16:43.241,0:16:45.041
Even when it doesn't make any sense

0:16:45.041,0:16:46.361
sometimes for years.

0:16:46.361,0:16:49.102
There might be some element of a book[br]that you think

0:16:49.760,0:16:52.190
"I know this doesn't fit, but I still...

0:16:52.190,0:16:54.925
I just have this gut feeling that I want[br]it in there".

0:16:55.206,0:16:57.454
And now I know to trust that because

0:16:57.454,0:17:02.140
that's at a certain point it will become [br]clear what... why it's there.

0:17:02.713,0:17:06.013
And at a certain point the book will show[br]me how to write it.

0:17:06.255,0:17:08.335
But you have to really trust that.

0:17:08.335,0:17:11.079
And it takes a while to learn that sort[br]of trust I think.

0:17:12.056,0:17:13.252
It's wonderful.

0:17:13.252,0:17:15.249
Another thread that runs through the book

0:17:15.249,0:17:18.840
is about the difference between art and[br]artists.

0:17:18.320,0:17:20.403
And I kept trying to think what the...

0:17:20.546,0:17:23.216
what the creativity is for somebody who[br]isn't creative.

0:17:23.216,0:17:26.452
You know, for me I'm not a writer, I'm not[br]a sculptor, I'm not a painter.

0:17:26.452,0:17:28.441
And I wondered if it was like[br]the difference between

0:17:28.441,0:17:30.526
saying, you know "Am I my work"?

0:17:30.618,0:17:32.284
But I wondered if you could talk a bit[br]about that.

0:17:32.284,0:17:35.228
You write about the artist's process that[br]belongs to you.

0:17:35.228,0:17:37.338
You know, you're responsible for the[br]process,

0:17:37.338,0:17:39.428
but you say that the art is separate[br]to you.

0:17:39.428,0:17:41.068
And I won't spoil it for people because

0:17:41.068,0:17:42.990
of those fabulous quotes you've found

0:17:42.990,0:17:45.288
from painters and writers throughout the[br]book

0:17:45.288,0:17:49.046
about how... how distanced they feel from[br]the thing they create.

0:17:49.046,0:17:52.365
Can you talk a bit about that? I thought[br]that was really fascinating.

0:17:53.368,0:17:57.795
Well sometimes it's... it's a good thing.

0:17:57.795,0:18:00.216
Sometimes just quite a scary thing.

0:18:00.968,0:18:04.608
But I think for me I came to a point of...

0:18:04.883,0:18:07.680
of realizing that I had to be able to

0:18:07.680,0:18:11.410
separate from my art.

0:18:11.789,0:18:14.469
I mean, it's a weird thing because it's so[br]central to you.

0:18:14.469,0:18:17.919
You know, it is... it is part of you in[br]a huge way.

0:18:17.919,0:18:21.467
But in order to... to make it what it[br]needs to be

0:18:21.467,0:18:23.491
you also have to get some separation

0:18:23.491,0:18:27.421
where you can be quite disenchanted with[br]it. And quite...

0:18:28.982,0:18:31.242
you know, be ready to throw it all[br]away.

0:18:31.242,0:18:34.325
So you can't be too deeply connected

0:18:34.532,0:18:37.722
even though we have to be too deeply[br]connected at the same time.

0:18:37.722,0:18:39.622
And there's always, I mean a lot of the

0:18:39.622,0:18:42.012
book is sort of discussing these tensions,

0:18:42.012,0:18:45.153
these paradoxes where two things are true[br]at once.

0:18:45.641,0:18:47.761
One is that, of course every book I've

0:18:47.761,0:18:50.626
written is absolutely me and of course

0:18:50.626,0:18:54.121
every book I've written is completely[br]separate from me.

0:18:55.415,0:18:57.945
But there are certain points where you[br]need to

0:18:57.945,0:19:01.005
remove yourself from the book.

0:19:01.005,0:19:05.005
And one person I loved talking about this

0:19:05.005,0:19:09.663
separation with was Jude Rae the painter.

0:19:09.806,0:19:12.247
She's a magnificent Sydney painter,

0:19:12.247,0:19:15.323
some people might know, and she talked[br]about how

0:19:15.640,0:19:18.870
it's really good while she... she...[br]she really

0:19:18.870,0:19:21.169
likes to have someone come into her studio

0:19:21.169,0:19:24.142
and see her painting while she is making[br]it.

0:19:24.247,0:19:26.147
Now, this could be any person.

0:19:26.147,0:19:28.133
It could be the postman.

0:19:28.133,0:19:30.255
It could be a neighbor.

0:19:30.255,0:19:33.497
It doesn't have to be a person who knows[br]anything about art.

0:19:33.497,0:19:35.727
Doesn't have to be a person who has an[br]opinion on it.

0:19:35.727,0:19:38.394
But something about their looking at it

0:19:39.004,0:19:41.554
that she called, she said it... it causes

0:19:41.554,0:19:43.103
a useful alienation

0:19:43.413,0:19:45.742
for... for her the painter.

0:19:45.853,0:19:48.452
So that she suddenly sees it through

0:19:48.529,0:19:50.232
a stranger's eyes.

0:19:50.664,0:19:52.734
And... and I said to her in this interview

0:19:52.734,0:19:54.554
"So it actually hasn't anything

0:19:54.554,0:19:56.364
to do with the person looking at it".

0:19:56.364,0:19:58.174
And she sort of laughed and said

0:19:58.174,0:19:59.294
"No, not really".

0:19:59.294,0:20:01.456
Like almost "I don't really care what[br]they think".

0:20:01.456,0:20:04.602
But their being there, somehow causes her

0:20:05.643,0:20:07.993
to detach in a very useful way

0:20:08.047,0:20:10.510
so she can see it afresh.

0:20:10.993,0:20:14.234
And I think that happens for writers in[br]lots of ways.

0:20:14.788,0:20:17.068
Sometimes not till the editorial process,

0:20:17.068,0:20:18.449
right at the end.

0:20:18.703,0:20:21.009
For me there's usually a point sort of

0:20:21.225,0:20:23.675
three quarters of the way through[br]completion

0:20:23.675,0:20:26.837
where I'll hand over my work to, sort of

0:20:27.304,0:20:30.834
a trusted reader or to... to... to give me

0:20:30.834,0:20:32.745
a different perspective on it.

0:20:33.312,0:20:37.312
So, it's sort of a weird and hazy thing[br]to try and describe.

0:20:38.182,0:20:39.884
But I think that separation,

0:20:40.197,0:20:42.457
I remember reading some years ago

0:20:42.474,0:20:45.404
and I never found out who it was who said[br]this,

0:20:45.519,0:20:46.718
but they said

0:20:46.853,0:20:49.472
"You have to be disenchanted...

0:20:49.702,0:20:51.772
You have to be calm disenchanted with your

0:20:51.772,0:20:54.624
work in order to enchant somebody else."

0:20:55.404,0:20:57.810
So the maker needs some sort of...

0:20:58.763,0:20:59.533
Distance.

0:20:59.533,0:21:00.945
Remove. Yeah.

0:21:02.460,0:21:04.420
Throughout the book as well in this first

0:21:04.420,0:21:06.419
section you talk about some destructive

0:21:06.419,0:21:08.117
mythologies around artists.

0:21:08.117,0:21:10.228
Around the artists' natural state.

0:21:10.228,0:21:12.044
And one of them is this idea that, [br]you know,

0:21:12.044,0:21:14.474
for art to be good, maybe an artist needs[br]to suffer.

0:21:14.474,0:21:16.784
And you do write really frankly about,

0:21:16.784,0:21:18.215
you know, the grumpy solution,

0:21:18.215,0:21:20.123
the grumpy phase, the grumpy struggle

0:21:20.123,0:21:21.519
that you go through where you're like

0:21:21.519,0:21:23.783
"This is not working. And I just want to[br]run away from it. Or I want to bury it"

0:21:23.783,0:21:25.113
or it's... whatever it is.

0:21:25.113,0:21:27.218
And wondered if you could, I suppose

0:21:27.218,0:21:30.198
dispel that ... or unpack it for us that[br]myth

0:21:30.198,0:21:32.988
about the... the state an artist has be in

0:21:32.988,0:21:35.878
or the state you have to be in, in order[br]to create, you know.

0:21:36.527,0:21:38.554
For something of... to be of worth does it

0:21:38.554,0:21:41.470
have to cause me suffering to create it?

0:21:43.116,0:21:47.719
I think when I was younger, I maybe

0:21:48.481,0:21:50.815
was a bit enchanted with that idea.

0:21:50.815,0:21:54.330
And I'm still, I'm still sort of really [br]in two minds about it.

0:21:54.484,0:21:56.203
Just before I go into that I want to

0:21:56.203,0:21:58.273
acknowledge that the grumpy struggle

0:21:58.273,0:22:01.273
and the luminous solution both words come

0:22:01.273,0:22:03.975
from an American writer called [br]Janet Burroway

0:22:04.271,0:22:08.431
who described her, her own writing[br]for instance.

0:22:08.722,0:22:10.956
I will see if I can find it to quote[br]properly.

0:22:12.166,0:22:15.736
She said it's always the struggle to get[br]myself. Here she says

0:22:15.736,0:22:18.146
"Once I'm working the process is much

0:22:18.146,0:22:20.207
the same in every genre. The effort to

0:22:20.207,0:22:24.054
get myself to the computer, a period of[br]grumpy struggle,

0:22:24.252,0:22:26.882
despair, the luminous solution that

0:22:26.882,0:22:30.130
appears in bed or bath, joyful work,

0:22:30.130,0:22:32.338
repeat, repeat, repeat".

0:22:32.690,0:22:34.638
And I just love that because it's like

0:22:34.638,0:22:38.157
"Yes! This describes exactly what it feels[br]like for me".

0:22:38.719,0:22:42.145
But the... the idea... I think

0:22:42.145,0:22:49.027
the face of tortured artist myth is...[br]is really...

0:22:49.816,0:22:51.623
can be very destructive.

0:22:51.699,0:22:54.679
And because it involves, in the way that

0:22:54.679,0:22:56.049
I've always thought of this,

0:22:56.049,0:22:58.321
sort of, the isolated artist,

0:22:59.259,0:23:01.458
keeping themselves separate from the[br]world.

0:23:02.021,0:23:04.641
And only from, you know, I think it's the

0:23:04.641,0:23:06.192
Hemingway said, you know

0:23:06.192,0:23:09.111
"Writing is easy. You just stand at the[br]typewriter and bleed".

0:23:10.263,0:23:12.776
Now lots of authors actually will[br]recognize that

0:23:12.776,0:23:14.562
very Hemingway, and the Patrick White

0:23:14.562,0:23:15.666
quote about, you know

0:23:15.666,0:23:18.218
"The writing is dragged out by tongs,

0:23:18.218,0:23:20.787
a bloody mess in the small hours".

0:23:20.909,0:23:21.639
So good.

0:23:21.679,0:23:23.609
And it's a big part of myth that... that

0:23:24.049,0:23:26.489
totally recognizes that.

0:23:26.649,0:23:29.749
And yet I also want to really resist that

0:23:30.010,0:23:34.010
because I don't believe that you have to

0:23:34.852,0:23:37.194
be in constant suffering

0:23:37.298,0:23:40.445
to... to produce anything of worth.

0:23:40.445,0:23:41.911
I just don't believe it.

0:23:41.911,0:23:43.997
And I also think it's really damaging to

0:23:43.997,0:23:46.211
a lot of people who could have a really

0:23:46.475,0:23:50.872
fulfilling and joyful creative life.

0:23:51.239,0:23:53.249
And when I say joyful I don't mean that

0:23:53.249,0:23:56.065
it's, you know, Pollyanna sitting there

0:23:56.426,0:24:00.556
you know, laughing and skipping around

0:24:00.556,0:24:02.627
the room as I write, not at all.

0:24:02.820,0:24:05.762
But there is a deep sort of quiet, almost

0:24:05.935,0:24:08.055
serious joy if that makes any sense.

0:24:08.055,0:24:12.055
That comes from investigating something

0:24:12.055,0:24:14.219
really deeply and quietly

0:24:14.337,0:24:17.478
and going as deeply into it as you can.

0:24:19.246,0:24:23.036
But the... I think the whole tortured

0:24:23.036,0:24:26.476
isolated artist thing is a very[br]patriarchal idea

0:24:26.531,0:24:32.946
because it depends on... that it comes [br]from

0:24:33.264,0:24:35.134
male artists who have always had women

0:24:35.134,0:24:37.472
doing all their boring crap in their[br]lives.

0:24:37.472,0:24:40.120
You know, doing the dishes, doing the[br]laundry,

0:24:40.202,0:24:42.848
bringing up their children, cooking the[br]food

0:24:43.006,0:24:47.006
to allow them to have this incredibly[br]precious isolation.

0:24:49.076,0:24:53.377
And, you know, women's art making has

0:24:53.377,0:24:55.722
always been much more porous.

0:24:55.751,0:24:58.771
Because women have always, I mean I don't[br]have children myself,

0:24:58.771,0:25:01.525
but many of my writer friends do,

0:25:01.612,0:25:06.345
and there is a wonderful photograph of [br]Ruth Park

0:25:06.583,0:25:09.173
writing at a tiny little table with

0:25:09.173,0:25:11.703
toddlers crawling between her legs

0:25:11.891,0:25:13.981
while she's typing her work.

0:25:13.981,0:25:17.731
So women, had always... if not having[br]children

0:25:17.731,0:25:19.191
then you know, just...

0:25:19.246,0:25:20.039
Caring.

0:25:20.099,0:25:22.153
...doing stuff around the... [br]yeah, caring

0:25:22.153,0:25:24.359
in lots of ways for families and friends

0:25:24.359,0:25:26.780
and partners and whatever.

0:25:27.180,0:25:30.530
So I want to kind of celebrate in a way

0:25:30.530,0:25:34.498
that there are... there are communal[br]aspects

0:25:34.498,0:25:36.618
to art making that don't mean I work on

0:25:36.618,0:25:37.997
my art with somebody else.

0:25:37.997,0:25:40.450
But I often work alongside somebody else.

0:25:40.450,0:25:44.450
And that is really precious to me and[br]really inspiring

0:25:44.450,0:25:48.701
and sort of energizing and challenging[br]as well.

0:25:48.701,0:25:51.576
It's not just someone there holding my[br]hand.

0:25:51.576,0:25:53.799
You know, I think the tortured artist,

0:25:55.256,0:25:57.676
yeah, I had this sort of vision of a great

0:25:57.676,0:26:01.137
man artist like this big blank outline

0:26:01.250,0:26:02.940
when I think of this stuff.

0:26:03.108,0:26:05.128
And that sort of person would say

0:26:05.248,0:26:07.578
"Well, you have to be able to work on[br]your own,

0:26:07.578,0:26:09.609
You have to be in isolation".

0:26:09.609,0:26:12.405
And that is also true, but you don't

0:26:12.405,0:26:17.158
have to be in misery the whole time.

0:26:17.724,0:26:19.845
Now I'm gonna do another little flip

0:26:20.064,0:26:26.011
and say I do think art costs.

0:26:26.011,0:26:27.298
It costs you.

0:26:27.526,0:26:30.228
And I feel like if it doesn't cost you[br]something

0:26:30.764,0:26:32.634
it may be you're not going deep enough,

0:26:32.634,0:26:35.911
you're not pushing yourself enough.

0:26:36.428,0:26:40.947
So, yeah, I know I am saying like 55

0:26:40.947,0:26:42.737
completely contradictory things here,

0:26:42.737,0:26:45.076
but we can say multitudes.

0:26:45.076,0:26:47.486
That and we do and I love it. And that's[br]the book as well.

0:26:47.486,0:26:49.719
I mean, you're picking up on some of the

0:26:49.719,0:26:51.698
things you just said you describe in[br]the book

0:26:51.698,0:26:53.779
that... that state called "porousness".

0:26:53.779,0:26:55.869
That women are more porous to the world.

0:26:55.869,0:26:58.079
That women artists are more porous to the[br]world

0:26:58.079,0:26:59.329
because of their gender.

0:26:59.329,0:27:01.752
And that we don't often think about why[br]that is.

0:27:01.963,0:27:04.391
But you also described earlier in this[br]conversation

0:27:04.409,0:27:06.189
that when the pandemic first happened

0:27:06.189,0:27:08.032
last year, you know, you... there was

0:27:08.032,0:27:10.262
no rational reason for you to feel[br]disrupted,

0:27:10.262,0:27:11.972
but your world was disrupted.

0:27:11.972,0:27:13.782
You are porous to the world, you can't be

0:27:13.782,0:27:16.155
separate from the world. You can't be[br]sitting in a garrett

0:27:16.155,0:27:17.925
on your own in isolation.

0:27:17.925,0:27:19.501
And I think also, you know you also talk

0:27:19.501,0:27:22.118
about the cost, the part has to the[br]creative person.

0:27:22.118,0:27:23.602
But there's also a cost it has on a people

0:27:23.602,0:27:25.292
around that creative person.

0:27:25.292,0:27:26.792
And there's a lot of that, you sound like

0:27:26.792,0:27:27.811
you've already dispelled it.

0:27:27.811,0:27:30.174
All those myths around artists who are[br]allowed to behave badly

0:27:30.174,0:27:31.694
because they are geniuses.

0:27:31.997,0:27:33.807
I feel like finally we're beginning to

0:27:33.807,0:27:35.286
really move away from that.

0:27:35.286,0:27:38.199
We're seeing the real impact on...[br]on people and on communities of

0:27:38.199,0:27:39.939
as you say if life is the process

0:27:39.939,0:27:41.536
of how damaging that can be when

0:27:41.536,0:27:44.036
the art is beautiful and the artist is [br]abhorrent.

0:27:44.036,0:27:46.507
And we don't have to love the person to[br]love the art.

0:27:46.507,0:27:49.067
So I'm also saying a whole lot of[br]flip flopped things.

0:27:49.756,0:27:50.742
The nature of...

0:27:50.742,0:27:52.243
I agree with that. Absolutely.

0:27:52.243,0:27:53.013
Yeah.

0:27:53.185,0:27:55.125
I wanted to cover a bit about... to talk

0:27:55.125,0:27:56.061
with you a bit about reading.

0:27:56.061,0:27:57.790
There's a beautiful chapter in the book[br]called

0:27:57.790,0:27:59.518
"Reading Isn't Shopping".

0:27:59.802,0:28:02.249
And I... and then I want to get to some[br]writerly stuff.

0:28:02.249,0:28:04.327
But I wanted to know why you wanted to...

0:28:04.327,0:28:06.007
to write that chapter in particular.

0:28:06.007,0:28:08.057
And I... and just to let people know that

0:28:08.057,0:28:10.037
the conversation in that... in that piece

0:28:10.037,0:28:12.282
is about what's going on when a word...[br]work of art

0:28:12.282,0:28:14.762
makes us feel bad or disrupts us

0:28:14.954,0:28:16.616
and what we can learn from that.

0:28:16.726,0:28:18.665
Can you talk a bit about that?

0:28:19.978,0:28:23.122
Yeah. I started writing about that [br]particular

0:28:24.654,0:28:27.104
topic because... partly because of

0:28:27.104,0:28:29.114
out of writing "The Natural Way of[br]Things",

0:28:29.114,0:28:31.944
which was a novel couple... a few years[br]ago of my...

0:28:32.083,0:28:38.145
that was very dark and very kind of [br]harrowing really to write

0:28:38.145,0:28:40.221
and I know for some people to read.

0:28:41.173,0:28:45.873
And it... it taught me a lot about writing

0:28:45.873,0:28:48.433
and about why I was doing what I was doing[br]and so on.

0:28:48.433,0:28:50.113
And I also had quite a lot of...

0:28:50.113,0:28:52.083
I did a lot of talking in public about it

0:28:52.083,0:28:55.023
and I had a lot of interactions with[br]people about it.

0:28:55.023,0:28:57.303
Some of which were very uncomfortable.

0:28:59.089,0:29:01.944
So that... that the initial spark for that

0:29:01.944,0:29:04.508
particular chapter came when I was

0:29:04.752,0:29:09.729
being a sort of volunteer gallery[br]attendant

0:29:09.729,0:29:12.389
in this little art gallery over a weekend

0:29:12.389,0:29:16.270
with a whole bunch of pictures that I[br]didn't like.

0:29:16.270,0:29:20.040
I thought they were kind of... kind of[br]ugly.

0:29:20.040,0:29:22.400
And some of them seemed a bit violent.

0:29:22.400,0:29:25.330
And they were... you know, they were[br]not the sort

0:29:25.330,0:29:27.720
of pictures that I would have on my wall[br]at home.

0:29:27.720,0:29:31.720
And... but because I sat there for two...[br]three whole days

0:29:31.720,0:29:34.490
I had to kind of really start thinking[br]about

0:29:34.490,0:29:36.825
"Well, what's going on with these?

0:29:36.895,0:29:39.395
Why do I feel like I feel about [br]these pictures?"

0:29:39.446,0:29:43.446
And that led me to thinking about books

0:29:43.560,0:29:47.382
that are difficult or unpleasant

0:29:49.080,0:29:52.470
and why it's important that we still read[br]them.

0:29:52.538,0:29:55.208
You know, that we don't necessary...

0:29:55.208,0:29:56.688
and also with you know film and

0:29:56.688,0:30:00.218
theater and everything else within art[br]in general.

0:30:00.334,0:30:04.154
That I think it's really important that we

0:30:04.154,0:30:07.984
don't stop looking at something or reading[br]something

0:30:07.984,0:30:10.094
or listening to something just because we

0:30:10.094,0:30:11.582
don't like it.

0:30:11.582,0:30:14.582
And that's where the phrase "Reading Isn't[br]Shopping" came from.

0:30:14.582,0:30:18.512
Because I felt that... I don't know how

0:30:18.512,0:30:20.852
recent it is, whether it's just always[br]been there

0:30:20.852,0:30:24.852
but there is a sort of sense sometimes[br]that

0:30:25.745,0:30:30.305
well if a book doesn't please me[br]it... it's of no use to me.

0:30:31.167,0:30:32.017
And...

0:30:32.017,0:30:34.055
If I can't see myself in a book, if I[br]can't

0:30:34.055,0:30:35.634
relate to the people in the book

0:30:35.634,0:30:36.338
That's right.

0:30:36.338,0:30:38.260
there's a lot about... a lot of emphasis

0:30:38.260,0:30:40.708
on art needing to mirror my exact

0:30:40.708,0:30:42.404
experience in the world which

0:30:42.404,0:30:44.167
is a peculiar new thing I think.

0:30:44.753,0:30:48.623
Yes it is idea of relatability which is[br]something I sort of

0:30:48.623,0:30:51.771
have a bit of a discussion about.

0:30:51.954,0:30:54.934
And I... I remembered my own high school[br]years

0:30:54.934,0:30:57.704
I had brilliant English teachers

0:30:57.704,0:31:00.172
uncle Gilligivitriou and uncle [br]Paul Cullen.

0:31:00.172,0:31:04.307
And they... and I remember Gilligivitriou [br]in particular, you know,

0:31:04.307,0:31:07.525
I... at the... whatever 16 year old saying

0:31:07.525,0:31:09.925
"I liked, I liked that book! I can relate[br]to that".

0:31:10.060,0:31:12.188
And... and my English teacher saying

0:31:12.745,0:31:15.355
"That's of absolutely no relevance[br]whatsoever

0:31:15.355,0:31:17.215
that you can relate to it. I don't care

0:31:17.215,0:31:18.391
if you can relate to it.

0:31:18.391,0:31:20.684
What is the book doing? What effect is it[br]having?

0:31:20.684,0:31:22.551
What is the author trying to say?

0:31:22.551,0:31:24.491
You know... What is the language doing?

0:31:24.491,0:31:26.941
What is the rhythm doing? What is the[br]setting?"

0:31:26.941,0:31:29.311
You know... and it was... so I was so

0:31:29.311,0:31:31.801
trained out of it very very early, really

0:31:31.801,0:31:33.471
while I was still a child.

0:31:33.471,0:31:36.721
And I'm so glad that I was because then

0:31:36.721,0:31:38.461
it allows you to actually see what's

0:31:38.461,0:31:40.021
in a book rather than just going

0:31:40.021,0:31:42.751
Oh, the only measure is "I liked it", [br]"I didn't like it".

0:31:42.928,0:31:45.728
You know, sort of thumbs up, thumbs down.

0:31:46.608,0:31:50.098
And then, I started to think in that...[br]in that chapter

0:31:50.098,0:31:52.269
about how we... we're...

0:31:54.400,0:31:57.600
capitalism just wants to give us[br]what we want, right.

0:31:57.600,0:31:59.660
So it wants to please us because then

0:31:59.660,0:32:01.017
we buy more stuff.

0:32:01.042,0:32:03.132
So we've started transferring this kind of

0:32:03.132,0:32:05.958
shopping mentality into art.

0:32:06.433,0:32:08.183
And I think it's really dangerous.

0:32:09.448,0:32:14.806
So that... the idea that a book should

0:32:15.161,0:32:20.233
represent me rather than show me[br]something...

0:32:20.233,0:32:22.413
And you know all... all writers and I'm

0:32:22.413,0:32:23.575
certainly one with them,

0:32:23.575,0:32:25.485
that we have people complaining about

0:32:25.559,0:32:27.909
the behavior of our fictional characters

0:32:27.909,0:32:29.649
because it's not nice or it's...

0:32:29.649,0:32:31.789
it's sort of immoral in some way.

0:32:31.789,0:32:34.969
Or... and there was, I think I detailed

0:32:34.969,0:32:37.659
in that one woman who wrote on the social[br]media thing

0:32:37.659,0:32:39.403
that she hated my book "The Weekend"

0:32:39.403,0:32:42.983
because it... the women in it were nothing

0:32:42.983,0:32:44.586
like her and her friends.

0:32:44.898,0:32:47.718
And... I was... I'm always just kind of

0:32:48.494,0:32:51.784
a bit gobsmacked by that.

0:32:51.982,0:32:54.602
You know, I have friends in the world,

0:32:54.602,0:32:58.372
but don't go to books to find friends.

0:33:00.642,0:33:03.634
And I think sometimes it's really [br]important to...

0:33:04.818,0:33:08.318
to just force yourself to keep going with

0:33:08.318,0:33:09.468
the book you don't like.

0:33:09.468,0:33:11.478
Even if you still don't like it at the[br]end.

0:33:12.768,0:33:16.768
Jerry Saltz is a... is a art critic for

0:33:16.768,0:33:17.928
New York Magazine

0:33:17.928,0:33:19.968
and he has a great little booklet

0:33:23.846,0:33:26.181
called "How to Be an Artist".

0:33:26.181,0:33:27.751
And I really love this book.

0:33:29.930,0:33:32.600
And he says, finding out what you don't

0:33:32.600,0:33:35.040
like is as important as finding what you[br]do like

0:33:35.040,0:33:37.940
because what you don't like will show you[br]things

0:33:37.940,0:33:41.662
about yourself and about what you want to[br]make as an artist.

0:33:41.910,0:33:43.790
And he... he suggests that if you're

0:33:43.790,0:33:46.320
looking at something that you hate,

0:33:46.320,0:33:48.400
think "Well if I was the kind of person

0:33:48.400,0:33:51.124
who likes this what would I like about it.

0:33:51.193,0:33:53.840
And I really like that approach to say,

0:33:54.078,0:33:57.838
it just sort of... it just deepens the[br]whole thing.

0:33:57.838,0:33:59.654
And I was reading a book the other day

0:33:59.654,0:34:02.151
a translation of a Japanese book

0:34:02.529,0:34:04.969
and I don't know if the translation is[br]really bad

0:34:04.969,0:34:07.677
or be it artist... like... this is really

0:34:08.276,0:34:10.256
not doing it for me.

0:34:10.256,0:34:11.586
Wasn't working for me.

0:34:11.586,0:34:14.223
But I remembered Jerry. Well if it was

0:34:14.223,0:34:16.049
working for me what would I see.

0:34:16.246,0:34:18.364
So it was kind of, you know...

0:34:18.364,0:34:20.414
It's... it's interesting, it just makes...

0:34:20.414,0:34:23.384
it's not about sort of morality

0:34:23.384,0:34:25.876
although I think there is an ethical[br]dimension to it.

0:34:26.393,0:34:30.380
But it's about just enriching things,

0:34:30.380,0:34:32.717
making them more complex and interesting.

0:34:33.193,0:34:35.823
One... and one of the other things you[br]talk about in that same chapter

0:34:35.823,0:34:38.298
is this idea of "empathy porn".

0:34:38.298,0:34:40.008
That there's an overemphasis here

0:34:40.008,0:34:41.728
and while it comes from a good place

0:34:41.728,0:34:43.748
of the idea that fiction isn't up here,

0:34:43.748,0:34:45.778
I hear people saying empathy machines.

0:34:45.778,0:34:47.598
So there is no... no better way to get

0:34:47.598,0:34:49.508
people to think that... that someone

0:34:49.508,0:34:52.358
different to them is a human than to read[br]about that person.

0:34:52.358,0:34:55.138
But you describe, I... I think it might [br]be Sarah Sentilles

0:34:55.138,0:34:56.974
I can't remember who... who.. which other

0:34:56.974,0:34:58.109
author talked about it.

0:34:58.109,0:35:00.659
The idea of... of embracing radical[br]"otherness",

0:35:00.659,0:35:02.410
like embracing radical difference.

0:35:02.410,0:35:04.435
I thought that was a really wonderful way

0:35:04.435,0:35:08.255
to push through that idea of empathy[br]is obviously very important.

0:35:08.255,0:35:09.931
And there's something else that you

0:35:09.931,0:35:12.103
really capture brilliantly on the page

0:35:12.103,0:35:14.353
which is that something different happens

0:35:14.353,0:35:17.273
to my imagination when I read your[br]characters in "The Weekend"

0:35:17.273,0:35:19.113
to when I see them on my screen.

0:35:19.113,0:35:21.033
If I'm watching a Netflix show and I see

0:35:21.033,0:35:22.713
people who are abhorrent and... and

0:35:22.713,0:35:24.553
have affairs with each other and sleep

0:35:24.553,0:35:26.024
with someone else's husband,

0:35:26.024,0:35:27.973
I'm more likely to kind of roll with it.

0:35:27.973,0:35:30.662
But when I'm translating it into my own[br]imagination

0:35:30.662,0:35:32.389
there is something else that happens

0:35:32.389,0:35:34.110
and you... you capture that process.

0:35:34.110,0:35:36.415
You capture that process in your... as a[br]writer

0:35:36.415,0:35:38.425
and therefore you make us think about that

0:35:38.425,0:35:41.354
process as readers, which is really[br]a great gift in this book

0:35:41.354,0:35:43.113
all the way through it actually.

0:35:43.608,0:35:44.321
Thank you.

0:35:44.321,0:35:46.411
I think that thing about empathy is really

0:35:46.652,0:35:48.723
it is really interesting because I...

0:35:48.723,0:35:50.330
I say in that chapter, Look

0:35:50.330,0:35:53.261
I'm, you know, being quite snooty about[br]relatability,

0:35:53.261,0:35:56.211
but you know, quite a lot of us talk about

0:35:56.211,0:35:59.211
empathy as... as the real... the thing

0:35:59.211,0:36:01.903
that makes books so... you... novels so[br]important.

0:36:03.532,0:36:08.062
And... and then I was like, well how far[br]is the difference

0:36:08.178,0:36:10.148
between relatability and empathy.

0:36:10.148,0:36:13.718
You know, it's still about how able am I

0:36:13.718,0:36:16.698
to inhabit this other life.

0:36:16.698,0:36:18.498
And of course we... we want that.

0:36:18.498,0:36:21.461
Reading is an act of putting yourself into

0:36:21.461,0:36:26.907
the... the person of the... people in[br]the book.

0:36:27.377,0:36:29.937
But Sarah Sentilles wrote that great thing

0:36:29.937,0:36:32.022
in her book "Draw Your Weapons".

0:36:32.136,0:36:35.383
And she does talk... I think she calls it[br]radical otherness

0:36:35.529,0:36:37.729
and she says empathy depends on...

0:36:37.919,0:36:40.946
I'm paraphrasing here, I hope I'm [br]getting it right enough,

0:36:42.213,0:36:45.125
Empathy depends on perceived likeness.

0:36:45.125,0:36:47.558
You know, I'll treat this person justly

0:36:47.818,0:36:50.566
because on some level they are like me.

0:36:50.878,0:36:53.796
And then she says, well what if they're[br]not like you?

0:36:53.969,0:36:58.552
What if you cannot find that point of[br]connection?

0:36:59.328,0:37:00.318
What then?

0:37:00.318,0:37:02.178
And she says we need to learn to

0:37:02.178,0:37:06.178
protect and respect, I think that which we

0:37:06.178,0:37:08.617
don't understand and we will never[br]understand.

0:37:08.830,0:37:10.814
You know, that we should... we should

0:37:11.769,0:37:16.703
give people human rights even if they're[br]abhorrent to us

0:37:16.844,0:37:19.456
because they're humans not because I

0:37:20.755,0:37:22.637
see myself in you.

0:37:22.693,0:37:24.172
Not because they're like me.

0:37:24.172,0:37:25.672
So that's the kind of, yeah.

0:37:26.955,0:37:29.865
There's... we're talking about why we [br]read, sorry,

0:37:30.403,0:37:33.393
but there's also why you write and there's

0:37:33.393,0:37:35.033
the beautiful connection obviously

0:37:35.033,0:37:36.223
between those two things.

0:37:36.223,0:37:37.764
And I wondered if you could read

0:37:37.764,0:37:39.104
a little bit from your book.

0:37:39.104,0:37:42.417
There's a fantastic section, sorry, to[br]give people background

0:37:42.417,0:37:44.367
it's a moment in the book where Charlotte

0:37:44.367,0:37:47.069
is talking about how, sorry,

0:37:47.617,0:37:50.887
she has lost her way with the book.

0:37:50.887,0:37:53.196
And she's not sure why she's writing

0:37:53.196,0:37:54.969
and she doesn't want to keep writing.

0:37:54.969,0:37:56.841
And you make a list for yourself of why

0:37:56.841,0:37:57.841
you might keep going.

0:37:57.841,0:38:00.130
And I wonder if you could just read that[br]for us?

0:38:00.428,0:38:02.378
Thank you Michaela, sorry you've got

0:38:02.378,0:38:04.178
scratchy throat, I know that feeling.

0:38:05.704,0:38:10.464
Yes, this... it was while I was writing

0:38:10.464,0:38:12.045
"The Natural Way of Things".

0:38:12.569,0:38:15.295
"So on one very bad writing day a few

0:38:15.295,0:38:18.294
years back, I thought again about giving[br]up.

0:38:18.294,0:38:21.921
I wrote to a couple of my writer friends

0:38:22.219,0:38:24.604
and this is the email that I wrote to[br]them.

0:38:25.107,0:38:27.647
"Not going so well this week after all.

0:38:28.127,0:38:31.858
Somehow swamped again with the futility[br]of this work.

0:38:32.160,0:38:35.260
Trying to find the point of writing a dark[br]bleak book

0:38:35.260,0:38:39.260
about girls imprisoned and trapped[br]and reviled.

0:38:39.803,0:38:42.133
Yesterday, I couldn't see how I was not

0:38:42.133,0:38:44.984
just adding yet more ugliness to the[br]world.

0:38:45.836,0:38:48.458
But I had just bucked myself up a little[br]bit

0:38:48.735,0:38:51.340
by writing a list of reasons to keep[br]going.

0:38:52.194,0:38:54.434
Here is what I came up with:

0:38:54.904,0:38:57.067
1. To make something beautiful.

0:38:57.183,0:38:59.633
Beauty does not have to mean prettiness,

0:38:59.763,0:39:02.889
but can emerge from the scope of ones[br]imagination,

0:39:03.139,0:39:06.289
the precision of ones words, the[br]steadiness

0:39:06.289,0:39:08.468
and honesty of ones gaze.

0:39:09.468,0:39:14.490
2. To make something truthful. Beauty is [br]Truth. Truth Beauty.

0:39:16.068,0:39:19.202
3. To make use of what you have and who[br]you are.

0:39:19.936,0:39:22.866
Even a limited talent brings an obligation

0:39:22.866,0:39:26.443
to explore it, develop it, exercise it,

0:39:26.443,0:39:28.194
be grateful for it.

0:39:29.820,0:39:34.462
Next. To make at all. To create is to defy[br]emptiness.

0:39:34.825,0:39:38.058
It is generous. It affirms.

0:39:38.058,0:39:41.901
To make is to add to the world[br]not subtract from it.

0:39:41.901,0:39:45.050
It enlarges, does not diminish.

0:39:45.849,0:39:49.731
At last, because as Iris Murdoch said

0:39:50.149,0:39:53.468
paying attention is a moral act. To write

0:39:53.468,0:39:55.528
truthfully is to honor the luck

0:39:56.006,0:39:58.566
and the intricate detail of being alone.

0:40:00.767,0:40:03.377
I returned to that list for comfort often

0:40:03.377,0:40:04.982
through the writing of my novel.

0:40:04.982,0:40:07.646
But it had stayed with me in the years[br]since

0:40:07.646,0:40:11.025
because I think it speaks to the reasons[br]we need art at all.

0:40:12.122,0:40:14.958
It often feels that we've entered a new[br]dark age.

0:40:15.286,0:40:17.336
An age in which science is rejected

0:40:17.336,0:40:19.820
in favor of superstition and greed,

0:40:20.395,0:40:23.518
in which our planet is desperate need[br]of rescuing,

0:40:23.914,0:40:27.020
in which bigotry and religion are[br]inseparable.

0:40:28.605,0:40:31.248
In the midst of this gloom, to create

0:40:31.248,0:40:34.638
is an act of enlargement, of affirmation.

0:40:35.236,0:40:37.849
It lights a candle in the darkness

0:40:37.849,0:40:40.829
offering solace, illumination, maybe

0:40:40.829,0:40:43.252
even the possibility of transformation

0:40:43.851,0:40:46.871
not just for the maker but for the reader

0:40:46.871,0:40:50.025
or viewer, which is to say all of us.

0:40:50.482,0:40:54.572
Art urges us to imagine and inhabit lives

0:40:54.572,0:40:55.932
other than our own.

0:40:56.073,0:40:57.846
To be more thoughtful.

0:40:58.039,0:40:59.369
To feel more deeply.

0:41:00.049,0:41:02.725
To challenge what we think we already [br]know.

0:41:03.538,0:41:06.511
Art declares that we contain multitudes,

0:41:07.664,0:41:10.286
that more than one thing can be true at[br]once.

0:41:10.689,0:41:12.810
And it gives us a breathing space

0:41:12.883,0:41:15.189
in which we can listen more than talk,

0:41:15.595,0:41:18.581
where we can attentively question our[br]own beliefs.

0:41:19.238,0:41:22.008
It gives us a place in this chaotic world

0:41:22.008,0:41:23.935
in which to find the sort of meaning

0:41:23.987,0:41:29.198
that only arises out of stillness, deep[br]within our quiet selves.

0:41:30.832,0:41:32.752
So beautiful, it's one of my favorite

0:41:32.752,0:41:34.762
sections of the book. Thank you Charlotte.

0:41:34.762,0:41:35.502
Thank you.

0:41:35.502,0:41:37.452
I wanted to ask you a few other questions

0:41:37.452,0:41:39.325
about sort of writing and writerly[br]process.

0:41:39.325,0:41:41.327
Early on you talk about, you referred[br]to it

0:41:41.327,0:41:43.295
earlier in our conversation about this[br]idea

0:41:43.295,0:41:44.423
of the writing mind.

0:41:44.423,0:41:45.745
And you say that the writing mind is

0:41:45.745,0:41:48.003
something beneath beyond or behind

0:41:48.003,0:41:49.664
normal conscious thought.

0:41:49.664,0:41:51.494
And this conversation tonight is about

0:41:51.494,0:41:53.384
how we can use creativity to think [br]differently

0:41:53.384,0:41:56.704
about our work, the way we are in the [br]community,

0:41:56.704,0:41:58.734
they way we make decisions about things.

0:41:58.734,0:42:00.369
Can you talk a bit more about that idea,

0:42:00.369,0:42:02.340
the idea of this... well I'm fascinated

0:42:02.340,0:42:04.077
with this idea of you being conscious of

0:42:04.077,0:42:05.278
these two minds.

0:42:05.278,0:42:07.657
That the idea of your writing mind as [br]being

0:42:07.657,0:42:09.391
beneath or beyond.

0:42:12.384,0:42:17.120
Yeah. It's kind of a strange way to move[br]in lots of ways.

0:42:17.120,0:42:20.983
I mean it's sort of, it's wonderful and[br]it's...

0:42:20.983,0:42:23.673
it can be weird.

0:42:23.673,0:42:25.493
Like I know some writers who feel like

0:42:25.493,0:42:28.162
they are never actually truly present

0:42:28.162,0:42:29.232
with other people.

0:42:29.232,0:42:32.241
Because it's always a part of them that is

0:42:32.241,0:42:33.820
in their book or whatever.

0:42:33.820,0:42:35.589
I don't particularly feel like that.

0:42:35.589,0:42:37.143
I feel like when I'm writing, I'm doing[br]that

0:42:37.143,0:42:38.340
and when I'm going about my life...

0:42:38.340,0:42:41.140
But when I'm with people, I generally feel

0:42:41.140,0:42:44.146
fairly, you know, present. It's just that[br]moment.

0:42:44.282,0:42:46.960
But of course there are times you know

0:42:46.960,0:42:48.677
another writer a friend of mine said

0:42:48.677,0:42:50.184
"Well, you know the good thing about

0:42:50.184,0:42:53.302
being a writer is that a boring dinner[br]party is never wasted".

0:42:53.302,0:42:57.132
And, you know, there's always a place[br]you can go when

0:42:57.132,0:42:59.157
when you're not... you know, when[br]you don't

0:42:59.157,0:43:02.520
want to be connected to what is in front[br]of you.

0:43:04.447,0:43:09.518
But it's... it's kind of important to...

0:43:11.258,0:43:14.404
to learn to access that other place

0:43:14.404,0:43:17.513
as sort of thoroughly and deeply[br]as you can.

0:43:17.890,0:43:19.636
And I lose sight of it all the time.

0:43:19.636,0:43:21.709
And you know the pandemic has...[br]has really

0:43:21.709,0:43:25.481
pushed me out of my... of my quiet

0:43:26.250,0:43:27.908
imaginative mind.

0:43:28.210,0:43:30.510
And that's when I need to do things like[br]you know

0:43:30.510,0:43:32.500
drawing the boundaries of time space

0:43:32.500,0:43:35.096
and keep out and don't do, you know,

0:43:35.548,0:43:38.518
a lot of socializing and that sort of[br]stuff.

0:43:38.518,0:43:42.008
There is a list of Susan Sontag's sort of

0:43:42.008,0:43:45.270
diary notes to herself in the book

0:43:45.356,0:43:47.226
where she gives herself these sort of

0:43:47.226,0:43:49.213
lectures in her journals about

0:43:50.067,0:43:52.567
"So I will go to bed at this time.

0:43:52.567,0:43:54.067
And I will get up at this time.

0:43:54.067,0:43:56.617
And I'll only have lunch once a week and

0:43:56.617,0:43:58.517
say no to this and blah blah".

0:43:58.517,0:44:00.427
But I found it very amusing because she

0:44:00.427,0:44:02.557
also has little qualifiers next to[br]all these

0:44:02.557,0:44:04.127
things saying, you know

0:44:04.127,0:44:06.237
"I will only have lunch once a week" and

0:44:06.237,0:44:09.268
then in brackets "can break this rule[br]once a fortnight".

0:44:09.268,0:44:11.004
And then "I will only do this".

0:44:11.004,0:44:13.614
"Can break this rule two times a week".

0:44:14.466,0:44:16.386
So it's this kind of... and it shows you

0:44:16.386,0:44:20.279
sort of attempt always to move between...[br]between worlds

0:44:20.279,0:44:24.279
to stay in the kind of quiet, private,

0:44:26.942,0:44:30.832
sort of wilderness of your creative mind.

0:44:31.178,0:44:33.834
And yet for me, I had to go into the world

0:44:33.834,0:44:36.799
to bring stuff back to that creative mind

0:44:36.799,0:44:38.009
and to my novel.

0:44:38.009,0:44:40.059
You know, my novel in my head needs

0:44:40.059,0:44:41.825
the outside world to feed it.

0:44:42.120,0:44:44.220
So it is a real tension that movement

0:44:44.220,0:44:45.458
between the two.

0:44:47.247,0:44:49.641
Another thing that goes throughout [br]the whole book,

0:44:49.641,0:44:52.977
and I want to ask you some questions about[br]"The Natural Way of Things",

0:44:52.977,0:44:55.367
is you also write about the role that[br]other artists

0:44:55.367,0:44:57.987
have in inspiring you and visual artists[br]come up a lot.

0:44:58.447,0:45:00.117
And I was surprised by that, I was.

0:45:00.117,0:45:02.207
I wondered if you could explain what it is

0:45:02.207,0:45:03.988
they offer to you as a writer.

0:45:06.260,0:45:08.430
Yes, it's sort of fairly recent thing for[br]me

0:45:08.430,0:45:10.890
to be, I mean I've always loved looking

0:45:10.890,0:45:12.464
at visual art, but

0:45:13.652,0:45:16.082
lately, really in recent years, [br]I've started

0:45:16.174,0:45:19.444
seeing particular artists as real

0:45:19.444,0:45:22.400
sort of guides for me, for myself.

0:45:23.199,0:45:24.951
Whether they know it or not.

0:45:24.951,0:45:27.345
Sometimes it's just about their bravery

0:45:27.817,0:45:30.319
and their willingness to

0:45:33.115,0:45:34.831
just walk their own path.

0:45:34.831,0:45:37.301
And while I was writing "The Natural Way[br]of Things"

0:45:38.791,0:45:43.505
I became quite, a bit obsessed with

0:45:44.147,0:45:46.321
the artist Louise Bourgeois.

0:45:46.321,0:45:48.791
The sculpture and the installation artist.

0:45:48.791,0:45:51.611
She... for people who the name isn't[br]familiar,

0:45:51.611,0:45:53.286
you might, you will have seen those

0:45:53.286,0:45:55.636
enormous spiders,

0:45:55.636,0:45:58.525
like, as big as a house, kind of,

0:45:58.525,0:46:00.930
metal spiders outside of the Guggenheim

0:46:00.930,0:46:02.817
on the building somewhere.

0:46:02.817,0:46:07.487
Or she makes cages made with creepy things

0:46:07.487,0:46:08.577
hanging inside them.

0:46:08.577,0:46:12.787
And she inspired me because I've felt,

0:46:12.787,0:46:14.987
I was so... I went through a period[br]of being

0:46:14.987,0:46:16.757
very afraid, while I was writing

0:46:16.757,0:46:19.860
"The Natural Way of Things" and feeling[br]so kind of...

0:46:21.054,0:46:23.584
that I was such a weirdo and it was so[br]creepy

0:46:23.584,0:46:25.637
and what was it saying about me that I was

0:46:25.637,0:46:27.527
having this stuff in my head that I was

0:46:27.527,0:46:29.269
putting on the page.

0:46:29.269,0:46:32.416
And I also kept thinking "Why am I doing[br]this? Why am I doing this?

0:46:32.416,0:46:33.736
And what does it mean?"

0:46:33.736,0:46:35.776
And it was so tedious to keep going,

0:46:36.564,0:46:39.044
stopping and questioning myself all the[br]time.

0:46:39.525,0:46:41.665
And that's when I came across the work of

0:46:41.665,0:46:44.319
Louis Bourgeois, which was really creepy,

0:46:44.816,0:46:50.109
always really menacing, slightly violent[br]and also beautiful.

0:46:50.493,0:46:53.063
And... so I decided at a certain point

0:46:53.109,0:46:56.122
that whenever I get, you know sort of...

0:46:57.327,0:46:59.542
when I feel wimpy about it,

0:46:59.542,0:47:01.923
I'm just gonna, I'm gonna be Louise[br]Bourgeois.

0:47:02.319,0:47:04.339
I'm going to... and I think I said

0:47:04.869,0:47:06.940
I'm just gonna hang some uteruses

0:47:07.140,0:47:09.393
in a cage and forget about it.

0:47:09.764,0:47:11.665
Which is some of her artwork.

0:47:12.009,0:47:15.309
And it gave me strength, it gave me[br]a sense of...

0:47:15.371,0:47:18.622
because I... in my mind, you know, I have[br]no idea

0:47:18.622,0:47:20.721
what Louise Bourgeois' actual[br]practice was,

0:47:20.721,0:47:22.851
but I felt that looking at her work

0:47:22.851,0:47:25.080
she wouldn't dick around going

0:47:25.080,0:47:27.521
"Oooh, why am I doing this? Oooh, that's a[br]bit mean.

0:47:27.521,0:47:29.591
I don't want people to think I'm, [br]you know.

0:47:29.591,0:47:33.844
She is just making these really full on[br]creepy...

0:47:33.844,0:47:38.414
She made some giant marble penises and

0:47:38.414,0:47:39.914
sort of carried them around.

0:47:39.914,0:47:42.240
Always very threatening and weird.

0:47:42.673,0:47:44.791
And I just thought "You rock Louise.

0:47:44.791,0:47:46.883
So I'm just gonna pretend that I'm you

0:47:47.167,0:47:49.362
for the purpose of writing this book.

0:47:49.710,0:47:51.410
So that's one... one of the ways.

0:47:51.410,0:47:55.000
And then other ways, I have a chapter[br]in there called

0:47:56.173,0:48:00.173
I think it's called "The Outside Voice[br]In Praise of the Unruly Artist".

0:48:00.759,0:48:03.437
And I particularly was looking at women[br]artists

0:48:03.437,0:48:05.907
who I felt were really...

0:48:07.967,0:48:10.077
Louise Bourgeois is that kind of artist[br]too,

0:48:10.077,0:48:12.537
but a bunch of like contemporary

0:48:12.537,0:48:16.264
Australian artists who just seem to me[br]fearless

0:48:16.264,0:48:22.644
and unashamed of their instinct. Their art[br]instinct.

0:48:22.801,0:48:26.921
And it's very galvanizing and very[br]inspiring

0:48:27.093,0:48:30.365
you know, to think, to look at those[br]people

0:48:30.365,0:48:33.275
and think "I'm... I'm gonna do that.

0:48:33.275,0:48:36.835
I'm gonna take charge of my work in that[br]same way

0:48:36.835,0:48:38.929
and not care what other people think[br]of it".

0:48:39.440,0:48:42.011
You know, of course you do care but

0:48:42.011,0:48:44.271
in the moment of making it, it's so[br]important

0:48:44.271,0:48:47.761
to forget about what other people are [br]gonna think of it

0:48:47.761,0:48:49.871
because it will just stop you doing[br]anything.

0:48:49.871,0:48:52.716
And I think that's something that does[br]stop lots of people

0:48:52.716,0:48:55.186
from even trying something creative.

0:48:55.186,0:48:56.686
But they think "Oh, this is...

0:48:57.336,0:48:58.366
this is no good...

0:48:58.366,0:49:00.446
so I can't. It can't be allowed.

0:49:00.885,0:49:03.445
And you know, another one of Jerry Saltz's

0:49:03.766,0:49:06.314
bits of advice is "Of course it's no good.

0:49:06.494,0:49:08.354
Just go do it." You know, "Go make your

0:49:08.354,0:49:10.920
bad art your big baby", that's what he[br]says.

0:49:11.479,0:49:12.319
I love it.

0:49:12.319,0:49:14.943
And it's so great to just go "Yeah, of[br]course it's crap.

0:49:14.943,0:49:18.303
So what? Just go". It's very freeing.

0:49:18.303,0:49:19.933
... in both situations it's like a

0:49:19.933,0:49:21.667
feedback loop, isn't it? You think

0:49:21.667,0:49:24.637
"Oh, no I won't, it won't be good enough[br]so I just won't do it.

0:49:24.637,0:49:26.337
But also what I love at the moment,

0:49:26.337,0:49:28.278
I made notes, I put little post-it notes[br]in the book,

0:49:28.278,0:49:29.945
when you describe those women, at one[br]point

0:49:29.945,0:49:31.685
you said maybe they're like feral women,

0:49:31.685,0:49:34.221
is that the unruly artists many of whom[br]are women

0:49:34.221,0:49:36.317
who you admire and you list all the[br]attributes.

0:49:36.317,0:49:38.258
and one of them is that they talk about

0:49:38.258,0:49:40.228
themselves and their work in a really[br]straightforward way.

0:49:40.228,0:49:42.204
They're not apologizing, they're not

0:49:42.204,0:49:44.094
contextualizing, they're not thinking[br]about

0:49:44.094,0:49:45.240
how it's going to be received.

0:49:45.240,0:49:46.372
They are not interested in a long game.

0:49:46.372,0:49:48.535
And as you say, not interested in[br]pleasing other people,

0:49:48.535,0:49:51.009
and I'm not, I don't mean it in an unkind[br]way.

0:49:51.019,0:49:53.399
And those hallmarks feed because of their

0:49:53.399,0:49:54.849
ability to be those people.

0:49:54.849,0:49:57.491
To actually really as you say like exist[br]in themselves.

0:49:57.639,0:49:59.749
It informs the work. So there's

0:50:00.282,0:50:02.812
negative feedback loops and positive[br]feedback loops.

0:50:02.812,0:50:05.352
And I found that very inspiring and I'm [br]not a writer,

0:50:05.352,0:50:07.070
I'm not a sculptor, I'm not a painter

0:50:07.070,0:50:10.227
but I was like "Yeah, that sounds like[br]a really great way to live."

0:50:10.582,0:50:13.592
Yeah, I love that they just seem so...

0:50:14.391,0:50:17.047
and some of these women I've met or I know

0:50:17.514,0:50:21.514
and I was struck by the complete self[br]acceptance.

0:50:21.564,0:50:23.774
And some of this work is really weird.

0:50:23.774,0:50:25.934
You know, some of the stuff that some of

0:50:25.934,0:50:27.284
these artists make.

0:50:27.445,0:50:30.255
But they would speak about it as

0:50:30.683,0:50:32.853
an entirely natural and kind of obvious[br]thing.

0:50:32.853,0:50:35.103
But of course, you know Carla Dickens

0:50:35.164,0:50:36.882
an amazing artist,

0:50:37.377,0:50:41.940
of course you would cast some underpants[br]in aluminium

0:50:41.940,0:50:45.940
and then hang emu feathers and fish hooks[br]of them

0:50:45.940,0:50:48.800
and rusty traps.

0:50:48.800,0:50:50.448
But what else would you do?

0:50:51.140,0:50:53.940
So it's the idea of just going my impulse

0:50:53.940,0:50:57.940
is entirely natural and it is...

0:50:58.751,0:51:00.484
And why would you even question it.

0:51:00.754,0:51:02.220
And you need me first.

0:51:02.265,0:51:04.735
And I think when you can get to that point

0:51:04.735,0:51:09.025
of absolutely trusting your own instinct..

0:51:09.979,0:51:12.585
And you know to me, the weirder the better[br]in a way.

0:51:12.585,0:51:14.658
Because you can always dial back something

0:51:14.658,0:51:17.991
like that, but if you're playing it safe[br]all the time,

0:51:18.648,0:51:20.795
you just end up with this sort of generic

0:51:21.419,0:51:25.111
you know, people pleasy work that doesn't[br]please anybody.

0:51:25.456,0:51:26.616
It doesn't stick around.

0:51:26.616,0:51:28.746
And when I think, when I'd had[br]conversations

0:51:28.746,0:51:30.516
with people after "The Natural Way of [br]Things"

0:51:30.516,0:51:32.146
what stuck with people about that,

0:51:32.146,0:51:34.455
and I know sometimes we get it wrong as[br]readers.

0:51:34.455,0:51:36.053
We talk about story and we talk about plot

0:51:36.053,0:51:37.230
and we fixate on them.

0:51:37.230,0:51:39.958
But so many people talked about that[br]kind of

0:51:39.958,0:51:41.598
when it's, it's like a dream or a [br]nightmare

0:51:41.598,0:51:45.960
that space, that luminal space that your[br]created on every page.

0:51:45.960,0:51:47.576
And then we're talking about, you know,

0:51:47.576,0:51:48.791
without saying it, readers were talking

0:51:48.791,0:51:50.792
about sentences. They were talking about[br]language.

0:51:50.792,0:51:52.371
They were talking about tone.

0:51:52.371,0:51:53.537
They were talking about all the things

0:51:53.537,0:51:55.303
that you probably agonized about.

0:51:55.303,0:51:56.853
But that's what they were responding to,

0:51:56.853,0:51:59.044
to that subconscious space in which

0:51:59.484,0:52:01.276
women or people who are a minority

0:52:01.276,0:52:03.313
in some way or shape or another thing,

0:52:03.313,0:52:05.090
this... this could happen to me.

0:52:05.090,0:52:06.233
This has happened to me.

0:52:06.233,0:52:08.093
This will happen to me if I speak up,

0:52:08.093,0:52:11.168
if I'm dis-empowered more that I already[br]know that I am.

0:52:11.168,0:52:12.858
And so you tap into a whole lot of

0:52:12.858,0:52:15.038
conscious and subconscious things with[br]writing

0:52:15.038,0:52:16.377
that as you say that you just went

0:52:16.377,0:52:17.865
"I'm gonna be feral about it. I'm just

0:52:17.865,0:52:19.545
gonna write this. It's gonna be weird and

0:52:19.545,0:52:21.455
I'm gonna commit to it. And it has that.

0:52:21.455,0:52:22.245
Has that impact.

0:52:22.245,0:52:24.878
And it took me, it was, you know...

0:52:25.997,0:52:28.897
That's why I'm proud of that book because

0:52:28.897,0:52:30.775
it taught me how to do that.

0:52:30.775,0:52:34.135
You know, I couldn't... it... because it[br]wasn't working

0:52:34.135,0:52:35.045
any other way.

0:52:35.045,0:52:36.535
It wouldn't work any other way.

0:52:36.535,0:52:39.085
So out of just sheer exhaustion in the end

0:52:39.085,0:52:43.294
I was like "OK, I'm just gonna go with[br]what this thing is".

0:52:43.482,0:52:46.781
And then it just, phhhh, came sort of[br]pouring out.

0:52:46.781,0:52:50.452
And it was weird and creepy and surreal[br]and dreamlike and...

0:52:51.814,0:52:54.504
and... and in the end I loved that.

0:52:54.504,0:52:56.264
That's what I liked about it myself.

0:52:56.264,0:53:01.247
That's what I found, what I hoped lifted[br]it out of just a bleak

0:53:02.621,0:53:04.627
sort of misery tale.

0:53:04.999,0:53:10.290
That... that sort of surreal, dreamlike, [br]symbolic, archetypal

0:53:11.361,0:53:14.781
that stuff that made people, a lot of[br]people told me

0:53:14.781,0:53:17.961
they felt they read it with their body,

0:53:17.961,0:53:19.701
rather than their mind.

0:53:19.701,0:53:23.171
And... and it felt like I wrote it with my[br]body.

0:53:24.434,0:53:27.161
And it had a power because of that,

0:53:27.393,0:53:30.242
that I've never felt before as a writer

0:53:30.242,0:53:31.723
and I didn't want to lose that.

0:53:31.723,0:53:33.803
So I went sort of looking "What is that?

0:53:33.803,0:53:35.753
What happened in that book that I can

0:53:35.753,0:53:38.815
sort of take with me now into the future?"

0:53:38.815,0:53:41.256
So it's like, it's a gift for you and[br]a gift for us.

0:53:41.256,0:53:42.523
I'm conscious of the time.

0:53:42.523,0:53:44.403
We have got a couple of questions here

0:53:44.403,0:53:46.153
and I want to put them to you.

0:53:46.483,0:53:49.863
One person has said "You've stopped me

0:53:49.863,0:53:51.856
in my tracks with your thought of staying

0:53:51.856,0:53:53.540
with the book that I don't actually enjoy.

0:53:53.540,0:53:55.480
What is it in reading that gives us such

0:53:55.480,0:53:58.180
strong reactions: like, dislike, relate,[br]resent"?

0:54:01.536,0:54:05.876
Well, I don't know. I think sometimes it's[br]recognition.

0:54:05.876,0:54:07.786
And in the chapter that I talk about

0:54:08.386,0:54:09.976
the paintings that I didn't like,

0:54:09.976,0:54:12.956
I was forced to kind of go "Well what is[br]it, why don't I like them"?

0:54:12.956,0:54:15.342
And partly it was, they were unfamiliar

0:54:15.342,0:54:19.045
and I didn't... I felt kind of...

0:54:20.939,0:54:23.654
I felt slightly ashamed that I could not[br]see

0:54:23.654,0:54:26.224
what it was that other people saw in these[br]pictures.

0:54:26.224,0:54:28.514
Because I knew in artists that I very much[br]admire

0:54:28.514,0:54:30.534
very well know and just had chosen those

0:54:30.534,0:54:32.686
pictures by different people.

0:54:33.404,0:54:36.850
And so I felt sort of like "Oh there must[br]be something wrong with me

0:54:36.850,0:54:40.401
that I don't see what all these people

0:54:40.401,0:54:42.309
think is so great about these pictures".

0:54:42.309,0:54:45.149
So it was a feeling of an almost,[br]a kind of

0:54:45.317,0:54:49.417
a fine fine strand of anger that I...

0:54:50.052,0:54:52.635
I didn't want to be made to feel like[br]an idiot.

0:54:52.694,0:54:54.864
So therefore I would just reject the[br]pictures

0:54:54.864,0:54:59.304
instead of thinking "Well, doesn't really[br]matter

0:54:59.304,0:55:03.934
that I don't understand, but I shouldn't[br]just reject it

0:55:03.934,0:55:06.012
because I don't understand it".

0:55:07.403,0:55:10.156
I also think... I mean I do think...

0:55:11.076,0:55:13.546
I also don't finish every book I start.

0:55:13.546,0:55:17.596
If I'm really really bored I don't.

0:55:17.596,0:55:19.386
That's a sign that I'm... you know...

0:55:19.386,0:55:20.952
you know, there are a lot of bad books[br]out there.

0:55:20.952,0:55:22.842
I don't think we should read bad books.

0:55:22.842,0:55:25.515
But I guess, I wanted to make a[br]distinction between

0:55:25.620,0:55:28.770
a book that isn't very good rather than

0:55:28.770,0:55:30.884
one that makes you feel bad.

0:55:30.884,0:55:32.904
Because if it actually does make you feel[br]bad

0:55:32.904,0:55:34.684
then it's doing something.

0:55:34.684,0:55:36.833
You know Christos Tsiolkas's books, [br]you know,

0:55:37.536,0:55:42.496
I have always read Christos and almost

0:55:42.496,0:55:46.220
always felt really uncomfortable and [br]really

0:55:46.848,0:55:48.967
like "I don't want to be with these [br]people.

0:55:48.967,0:55:51.337
I don't want to be in dead Europe, in this

0:55:51.337,0:55:54.517
you know, really dark and scary place.

0:55:54.517,0:55:56.953
I don't want to be with these, you know,[br]arseholes

0:55:56.953,0:55:58.123
in this land".

0:55:59.933,0:56:02.623
And yet, there's something very compelling[br]about it

0:56:02.623,0:56:04.938
and also it showed me about the world

0:56:04.938,0:56:07.283
in ways that I didn't, you know...

0:56:07.364,0:56:09.844
Just because it wasn't nice, didn't mean

0:56:09.844,0:56:11.609
that I shouldn't go there.

0:56:11.940,0:56:14.709
It also seems like an unrealistic request[br]of

0:56:14.709,0:56:16.519
of fiction, which is, you know,

0:56:16.519,0:56:18.543
written by real people in the world

0:56:18.543,0:56:19.969
that it should all be pleasant

0:56:19.969,0:56:22.906
Like, life isn't pleasant and all kinds of[br]things aren't pleasant.

0:56:22.906,0:56:25.475
And it's boring! I mean pleasantness is, [br]you know...

0:56:25.475,0:56:26.195
Yeah.

0:56:26.195,0:56:28.195
That's what the Truman Show was about,[br]right?

0:56:28.195,0:56:30.113
Like you need, you need

0:56:30.113,0:56:32.441
the grit in the oyster.

0:56:33.403,0:56:37.206
You need the discomfort, [br]it's part of living

0:56:37.415,0:56:44.407
And, yeah... but as I say if it's just[br]dull then...

0:56:45.233,0:56:47.088
You're allowed to put it aside, yeah.

0:56:47.690,0:56:49.101
There's another question here

0:56:49.319,0:56:51.962
"How important is the responder to[br]creativity?

0:56:52.197,0:56:54.565
Can you create without a responder"?

0:56:54.565,0:56:57.328
I'm assuming that would mean like a[br]reader or a viewer or something.

0:56:57.328,0:56:58.962
I'm thinking mainly of the artists you[br]mentioned

0:56:58.962,0:57:00.612
who need someone to see the work

0:57:00.612,0:57:02.036
as it's being done.

0:57:03.283,0:57:07.736
Well, Jude and I, that artist and I talked[br]about

0:57:07.736,0:57:11.029
this thing of "Would you keep making work[br]if no one saw it"?

0:57:12.141,0:57:14.931
And she said "I feel like the reason you

0:57:14.931,0:57:17.357
have shows as an artist is because you[br]need to...

0:57:17.773,0:57:19.500
you need someone to see it".

0:57:20.363,0:57:28.192
And I feel as a writer that if I wrote[br]books

0:57:28.353,0:57:30.763
and I knew that they were never gonna be[br]published

0:57:30.763,0:57:33.383
in some form, even if I, you know,

0:57:33.383,0:57:35.242
publishing yourself is publishing,

0:57:35.242,0:57:37.954
but if I thought no one is ever going to[br]read this,

0:57:38.844,0:57:44.284
personally I don't know that I would keep[br]going.

0:57:45.529,0:57:47.709
I don't think other people should stop

0:57:47.709,0:57:49.659
writing if no one is gonna read their[br]work.

0:57:49.659,0:57:51.489
Because there's so much that comes...

0:57:52.364,0:57:54.712
you know the main reason I do it is to

0:57:56.062,0:57:58.727
find out what I think, you know,[br]about the world.

0:57:58.727,0:58:03.179
To find out what are my preoccupations and

0:58:04.385,0:58:06.834
Edna O'Brien said "People become artists

0:58:06.834,0:58:09.664
because they have an intensity of feeling

0:58:09.664,0:58:12.050
that normal life cannot accommodate".

0:58:12.208,0:58:15.398
And I absolutely feel that that's true[br]for me.

0:58:15.634,0:58:19.017
And yet, if noone was ever going to read[br]it

0:58:20.031,0:58:24.221
I feel like I wouldn't know if it worked[br]if no one read it.

0:58:26.035,0:58:28.565
So for me, it's certainly the other half

0:58:28.565,0:58:30.385
of the creation is the reader.

0:58:31.895,0:58:33.655
And I imagine that painters...

0:58:33.655,0:58:35.695
although I know a couple of painters who

0:58:35.695,0:58:38.153
paint and never exhibit, you know, [br]by choice.

0:58:38.580,0:58:43.245
So I guess it just depends on the person,[br]the creator.

0:58:43.655,0:58:47.575
But I personally, I need someone to [br]see it.

0:58:48.228,0:58:49.948
Very much so. I understand.

0:58:49.948,0:58:51.897
We're pretty much at the end of our time,

0:58:51.897,0:58:53.693
but I wanted to ask you one last question,

0:58:53.693,0:58:55.356
which relates exactly to what you were[br]just talking about

0:58:55.356,0:58:57.279
which is that as we've talked about[br]tonight

0:58:57.279,0:58:58.856
you know there are chapters and ideas[br]in the book

0:58:58.856,0:59:01.166
that speak directly to artists [br]and writers.

0:59:01.633,0:59:04.167
But how do you think readers who are,

0:59:04.167,0:59:06.280
what do you think readers who are not[br]writers

0:59:06.280,0:59:09.510
can learn from the book? What do you hope[br]they'll take away from it?

0:59:10.998,0:59:13.636
What I would love, is for...

0:59:15.470,0:59:19.670
my fantasy reader for this book is

0:59:21.310,0:59:24.730
someone like a policymaker in some really[br]important area

0:59:24.730,0:59:29.920
or... or an industry leader or something,

0:59:29.920,0:59:33.147
where... to start to understand that

0:59:33.147,0:59:38.877
cross pollinating from other things very[br]unlike yours

0:59:39.717,0:59:44.423
can really enrich your own area of [br]expertise.

0:59:45.556,0:59:49.376
So, and I had this little pang a few weeks[br]ago

0:59:49.376,0:59:52.709
thinking about "Imagine if at the[br]beginning of the pandemic

0:59:52.709,0:59:58.258
we got the best visual artists, actors,

0:59:59.309,1:00:01.689
sports people, industry leaders,

1:00:01.689,1:00:03.979
scientist, researchers, health people,

1:00:03.979,1:00:05.221
writers.

1:00:07.056,1:00:09.936
The best of every field together and said

1:00:09.936,1:00:11.574
"What are we gonna do about this?"

1:00:11.574,1:00:14.749
"How can we work together to solve, attack[br]this problem?"

1:00:15.289,1:00:19.006
I feel like we would have had so many[br]amazing new

1:00:21.871,1:00:24.241
projects and policies and connections.

1:00:24.241,1:00:26.601
And you know a big hallmark of creativity,

1:00:26.601,1:00:29.251
of creative thinking is the joining of [br]unlike things.

1:00:29.691,1:00:31.531
And I think most of the time in our

1:00:31.531,1:00:33.747
contemporary society we... we don't...

1:00:34.274,1:00:38.514
we actually actively resist creativity[br]when we see it.

1:00:38.514,1:00:39.847
We don't like it.

1:00:40.462,1:00:42.902
And one of the ways we do that is by[br]saying

1:00:42.902,1:00:44.426
"Creativity is for artists".

1:00:44.426,1:00:47.196
So we put it over there and they can hang[br]it on their walls

1:00:47.196,1:00:49.206
and it's just the thing on the side that's

1:00:49.206,1:00:52.976
kind of pretty but doesn't mean anything[br]about the way we actually live.

1:00:52.976,1:00:55.972
And I want to bring that right into the[br]way we actually live.

1:00:55.972,1:00:57.940
Because it's... it's crucial.

1:00:57.940,1:01:00.360
Like radical creativity is the only thing

1:01:00.360,1:01:03.814
that is going to save us now. I really[br]feel that.

1:01:04.101,1:01:05.587
And that cross pollinating...

1:01:07.395,1:01:09.120
cross pollinating ideas...

1:01:09.417,1:01:12.961
a real embrace... embrace and tolerance[br]of failure

1:01:13.303,1:01:15.713
because we... we just utterly reject...

1:01:16.004,1:01:18.384
the... the possibility of failure, which[br]means

1:01:18.384,1:01:21.696
we so often don't develop really good[br]things

1:01:21.696,1:01:24.326
because, you know, we decide they're [br]not gonna work

1:01:24.326,1:01:26.486
before they've even had a chance to grow.

1:01:27.733,1:01:30.044
You know, I have a long manifesto of[br]things

1:01:30.044,1:01:31.934
that I think should happen more.

1:01:32.421,1:01:34.501
And not rejecting things because

1:01:34.501,1:01:36.331
they don't work at first.

1:01:37.521,1:01:39.621
And that can go for a cake, you know,

1:01:39.621,1:01:44.172
it can go for a... learning scales on[br]a piano.

1:01:44.376,1:01:47.549
It could go for developing a really cool[br]business idea.

1:01:48.466,1:01:51.915
I just would love for us to open up more

1:01:52.025,1:01:56.708
to the unknowing and they mystery and the[br]uncertainty

1:01:56.708,1:01:59.399
that is the place where creativity comes[br]from.

1:02:00.414,1:02:02.524
You've done that really beautifully in the[br]book.

1:02:02.524,1:02:05.140
It shakes us up. It reminds us why we love[br]art.

1:02:05.140,1:02:06.478
Why we need art.

1:02:06.478,1:02:08.917
And how it can kind of re-shape the way[br]we see the world

1:02:08.917,1:02:09.963
and therefore re-shape us.

1:02:09.963,1:02:11.818
Help us imagine things differently.

1:02:11.818,1:02:13.518
Charlotte, thank you very much.

1:02:13.518,1:02:15.638
Congratulations on the book and I'm[br]handing back over

1:02:15.638,1:02:16.818
to Danielle Ainsley.

1:02:16.818,1:02:19.308
Thank you Michaela for your very beautiful[br]questions.

1:02:19.308,1:02:21.196
And can I say your beautiful voice.

1:02:21.411,1:02:23.710
Oh my God, I could listen to you just all[br]day.

1:02:23.978,1:02:24.863
Thank you.

1:02:24.927,1:02:25.897
I second that.

1:02:25.897,1:02:28.691
Thank you very much despite my little[br]dry coughing random.

1:02:28.691,1:02:30.616
It just added to the allure.

1:02:31.678,1:02:34.600
Well thank you so much to both of you.

1:02:34.600,1:02:37.425
I really appreciate you both taking the[br]time out

1:02:37.425,1:02:40.345
to... yeah let us in on this great[br]conversation.

1:02:40.345,1:02:44.510
I had a really lovely time and I'm sure[br]others did as well.

1:02:45.655,1:02:47.794
Now, in a moment you'll see a survey

1:02:48.181,1:02:49.231
pop up on your screen.

1:02:49.231,1:02:51.001
It's very short only four questions.

1:02:51.001,1:02:53.839
We'd love feedback if you could spare

1:02:53.839,1:02:55.982
the moment to do that for us.

1:02:56.293,1:02:59.390
Now you can purchase copies of the[br]"Luminous Solution"

1:02:59.567,1:03:01.047
at our local bookshops

1:03:01.047,1:03:04.205
and at the moment a few are running

1:03:04.205,1:03:05.845
a "Click and Collect" service.

1:03:05.965,1:03:08.579
So Oscar and Friends in Double Bay[br]is running

1:03:08.579,1:03:11.039
a click and collect service if you're[br]wanting to do that.

1:03:11.039,1:03:14.764
Otherwise, the Woollahra Bookshop on[br]Spicer St,

1:03:15.023,1:03:18.373
Harry Harthog's and Gertrude and Alice in[br]Bondi,

1:03:18.755,1:03:23.163
and Read On Books at Westfield Eastgardens[br]as well.

1:03:23.305,1:03:26.141
Otherwise you can purchase copies of the[br]"Luminous Solution"

1:03:26.141,1:03:29.811
on Booktopia if you're not local and we've[br]got links

1:03:29.811,1:03:31.441
in the chat as well.

1:03:31.582,1:03:34.212
And we've also got copies of all of[br]Charlotte's

1:03:34.212,1:03:37.853
books in our collections and they are[br]available right now

1:03:38.480,1:03:40.285
as an e-resource if you wanted

1:03:40.335,1:03:44.862
or as a physical book via click [br]and collect as well.

1:03:44.973,1:03:46.273
Thanks so much everyone.

1:03:46.273,1:03:49.098
We hope you have a lovely rest of your[br]evening.

1:03:49.970,1:03:51.025
Thank you very much.

1:03:51.025,1:03:52.087
Take care everyone.