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(soft piano music)

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- Hi, I'm Richard Lang and today I'm talking

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with my friend, Suvaco.

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- Hello Richard,

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and hello everybody watching this.

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- Yes.

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I'd just like to talk a little bit

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about how you came across seeing headlessness

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and what it's meant to you in your life and so on.

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So, where did it start for you

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in terms of the headlessness?

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What led up to it?

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- Yeah, that's thanks...

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How to answer the question...

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Well, I think there's a level first,

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it's important to say that...

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I can't really say what led up to headlessness

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or how I started seeing.

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There might have been moments early in my life

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when this was evermore present.

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There is not a sense of it
started at a certain time.

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However, if you speak in terms

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of what we'll consider headlessness

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as taught by Douglas Harding,

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it is slightly remarkable.

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I was living in a very, very remote monastery

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on an island on the Thai border with Laos,

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a place with no electricity.

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And at a certain point, somebody,

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and I never knew who, cleared out his library

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and decided to donate his books.

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So, there was a mixture of Thai and English books

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to this remote monastery,

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where we were just two, three,

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literally two, three English-speaking monks.

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And among the many strange books,

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there was, you know,

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even pieces from Jehovah's Witnesses

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or old collections of the Bible,

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and books on insight meditation.

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There was book called On Having No Head,

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which I picked up.

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It called me.

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And upon reading it, I was sold.

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It was wonderful.

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It was a breath of fresh air.

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I'm in a period...

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This was my earliest time as a monk.

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- Roughly, what year are we talking about?

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- So we're talking year in '91.

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In a time when there was very much

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still the sense of having to get established

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in meditation and in disciplines,

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and somehow, at the same time,

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in came, out of nowhere,

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this sense of it's all right here.

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And somehow, that has always stayed with me.

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Although, perhaps not always consciously,

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but even by reading the book,

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I saw.

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Something I remember was like (gasps)

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my goodness, it is so true.

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And then, wonder of wonder,

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a couple years later, I think it was in '94,

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perhaps '95,

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while I lived in the UK,

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I went for one of our...

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We have this, in this tradition,

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the sense of going on walk abouts,

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where we just kind of go, in trust.

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So we take a vote

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and we just leave the safety of the monastery

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and see what happens if we leave it.

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And one of these walks,

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I had an address of some--

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I was supposed to be with another monk

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around Ipswich, and the only address we have

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was of a certain Douglas Harding,

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who immediately answered back,

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"But of course, come."

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And I am having a gathering.

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- So this is '94 or something like that?

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- [Suvaco] '94, '95, as far as I remember.

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First time I met you, Richard.

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- Right.

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- And what was very important was

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beside the experiments,
which was absolutely phenomenal

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for me to try out because of the...

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I daresay, around the monastic convention,

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there is that slight sense that remains of,

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I am this

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endarkened person, who has to do these practices,

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meditation or otherwise,

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I'm on way to enlightenment.

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I am a seeker.

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And also, of course,
every day you're reminded

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that you ain't, perhaps, in a subtle way,

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certainly in my case,

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the forms reenforce that.

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The forms meaning the daily meditations

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where you're always like, oh, my mind is still scrambled,

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or how come I ain't experiencing the great bliss?

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And somehow, just this freshness

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of actually having immediate experiments,

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the pointing finger, or dukkah,

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it allowed an openness that I hadn't allowed myself.

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And the important point was, of course,

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it was not as if I discover something new.

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It was if, yes, I recognize this freedom.

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- [Richard] Familiar.

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- It's familiar, it's...

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So it really is an act of familiarization,

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but what was very, very important

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was Douglas, at that moment, would point out to me,

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and here there is no hierarchy of seers.

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You can say that Douglas sees better

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because he has done this longer.

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He had a way of, where I felt really empowered

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and this is it.

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And I think this is the key point

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that I find with meeting Douglas

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and practice of headlessness,

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a unique contribution, that in a nonverbal way,

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and direct experiences, direct experiments,

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it actually hammers home the obviousness,

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that we always already are waking as we are.

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There's absolutely nothing that we need "doing."

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So emptiness is always on tap.

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- So, it sounds as though it

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fits in very well with your monastic life.

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- Indeed, it does.

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I think that coming back to the monastery,

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I had a sense of, well, this is actually

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the point from which I can begin
to live a monastic life,

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because, in a way then...

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In a conventional reality, the life of a monk

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is actually set up in a way

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that if you, you know,

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it's not as if you have to get caught up

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in what about my mortage?

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Or, what about my retirement?

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We all have ways in which we postpone awakening

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because something in us is not yet trusting.

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There's something that says,

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yes, as soon as I have done this or that,

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then I can be awakened.

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And of course, even in a monastery,

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that patterning continues.

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But it was as if, however,

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the monastic setting is not to be taken so seriously.

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In some way, you know,

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it's a conventional reality being a monk,

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but there is a level...

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It's held a bit tongue in cheek.

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So I found that was also great support

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in actually, the lifestyle in itself

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allows plenty of opportunities
to actually lean back and see.

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And there was a little group of monks.

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I think we were four of us
who had met Douglas.

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So we met up regularly and did experiments together.

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- And how do you think it affects your relationships

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with people, with friends, with whoever?

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The face to no face seeing?

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'Cause relationships are the
important area to think about.

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- Oh yeah, absolutely.

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I think also the question,

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the question you ask is even deeper.

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In a way, you know,

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not only your relationship with people,

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dare I say with that which we think as the other.

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So, whether it is my relationship

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even with a thought or a feeling

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or with other people,

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is it a relationship in which I set up

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a somebody, you know...

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Often, Douglas used to call it head to head to head

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or residual space for that face

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that appears over there.

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Or can I actually be the space

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that allows any formation to arise and cease?

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And I'm humbled, this is a continuous act

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where I'm learning.

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It's an act of trust, really.

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If I fully allow the other to be,

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and of course, we have to sit through

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our own inner...

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We have an agenda always,

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a subtle agenda with the world.

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And is it possible, actually, to lean back

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and let, yeah, let this be?

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So that changes profoundly
my relationship with the other.

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I become the openness for the other.

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And with people particularly...

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In the start, perhaps, it can sound a bit

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like a technique, a way, you know,

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that maybe I put up with others.

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If I don't like them by being spaciousness.

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But more, it's actually become,

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I find over the years,

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it's more like a heartfelt sense

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of being with others.

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And it is really so that to hear in the silence,

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to hear two voices, two people arising,

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and being the space for both of them,

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and also the feelings that arise

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between the two people in this sense.

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So I recognize myself and find myself

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in the other, or as the other.

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Do you find something?

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- Yes, two voices now in the one silence.

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- Yes, yes.

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- Wonderful, isn't it? Isn't it?

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- Isn't it marvelous?"
- Yes, alive.

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- Yes.

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- Unpredictable.
- Yes.

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And a sense of, kind of,

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a bit like [PWOSH (makes hand gesture to smile)]

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- (laughs) Yeah.

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"Awe" .. "awe" is the word

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- What about trusting it?

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What are your thoughts about...

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We sometimes talk about trusting
who we are and so on.

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What are your thoughts about trust?

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- Yeah, that's big.

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That's another big subject, which...

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There is a level where perhaps the first thing

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that comes to heart is,

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oh my goodness, I have so little trust.

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In a way, the essence of,

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the essence of Suvaco is built around

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fear or contraction or defense,

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and the very act of seeing

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or, in this case,

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when I actually really see the fear

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that it begins to dissolve it.

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It erodes in a way.

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So seeing is, it certainly in my experience here,

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it's the erosion, and this is a gradual work.

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And it's not something I can apply technically,

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saying, "Oh, I really feel afraid now.

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"Oh, let me just go back to seeing."

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It doesn't seem to work like that at all.

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It seemed to really fully feel,

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fully noticing it,

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the anxiety or the fear.

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If I really am and fully stay with this "thing"

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as it arises, this other that I call fear,

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and somehow that begins to transform it,

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having a relationship with it.

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And in a way, there I begin to, say, trust.

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So, trust not in enlightenment, or in God,

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but trust in the immediacy that it is well.

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Even that which is difficult
is a something to be embraced.

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So, in a way, of course, with seeing in itself

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it is so immediate.

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And then, of course, it is also
that we're gonna find it as multilayered.

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Endless discoveries, perhaps.

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- In what way multilayered?

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- Multilayered, that seeing is also hearing.

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It's also deeply sensing and deeply feeling.

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We arise with all the sense thoughts

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from moment to moment.

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- It's where you're coming from.

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- [Suvaco] It is, yeah.

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- Whatever we call it.

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- Another way, I don't know how...

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I don't know how relevant it is
in the context of seeing,

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but over the years,

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00:15:50,380 --> 00:15:54,090
the other really great, should we say,

270
00:15:54,090 --> 00:15:57,460
support in stabilizing,

271
00:15:58,190 --> 00:16:02,060
so one thing is, as you know, seeing it,

272
00:16:02,060 --> 00:16:05,250
another is being it.

273
00:16:06,990 --> 00:16:10,240
That it just becomes a more relaxed

274
00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:13,800
and continuous sense of being.

275
00:16:15,380 --> 00:16:19,600
There I found the sense of listening,

276
00:16:20,130 --> 00:16:22,340
and listening to

277
00:16:25,330 --> 00:16:28,590
what is called the sound of silence,

278
00:16:28,590 --> 00:16:32,350
so this is if, in the very act of relaxing

279
00:16:33,170 --> 00:16:35,440
into the wider field of listening,

280
00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:38,130
this high pitch

281
00:16:40,890 --> 00:16:42,330
resonates.

282
00:16:43,730 --> 00:16:48,390
And that gives also, really,
another very, very clear background

283
00:16:48,390 --> 00:16:52,070
in which I can hear the sound of this voice,

284
00:16:52,670 --> 00:16:57,524
I can see you, and how it all arises,

285
00:16:57,524 --> 00:17:04,599
and sees upon this continuous shimmering sound

286
00:17:04,599 --> 00:17:06,685
as a background.

287
00:17:06,685 --> 00:17:10,810
That is not quite, again,
it's a bit like seeing.

288
00:17:10,810 --> 00:17:12,880
It's not quite localizable.

289
00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:15,000
Is it inside? Is it outside?

290
00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:16,400
Is it both? Is it...?

291
00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:18,940
It is global.

292
00:17:19,450 --> 00:17:20,609
Yeah.

293
00:17:22,940 --> 00:17:28,060
- You're training in craniosacral therapy?

294
00:17:28,060 --> 00:17:30,806
How does this awareness

295
00:17:30,806 --> 00:17:35,764
inform your experience in that field?

296
00:17:35,764 --> 00:17:38,050
- Oh, that's a wonderful question.

297
00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:46,360
Even more so, it is, again, it...

298
00:17:47,590 --> 00:17:50,060
So, what this work of seeing is,

299
00:17:50,060 --> 00:17:53,924
is again, I find it is endless discoveries,

300
00:17:53,924 --> 00:17:59,690
and the discovery that even through touch,

301
00:17:59,690 --> 00:18:03,550
and putting your hand on another person,

302
00:18:04,650 --> 00:18:07,920
and listening, and being completely open

303
00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:12,020
and silent, it allows something to happen

304
00:18:12,020 --> 00:18:16,695
in both the seer, or the giver and the receiver.

305
00:18:16,695 --> 00:18:19,670
(mumbling) And I find that that is marvelous,

306
00:18:19,670 --> 00:18:22,420
that sense of, you empty,

307
00:18:22,420 --> 00:18:25,595
and the more you step back and empty yourself,

308
00:18:25,595 --> 00:18:32,890
the more you give the space
for the other to come forward.

309
00:18:32,890 --> 00:18:35,161
- It's something to unfold.
- Yeah.

310
00:18:35,161 --> 00:18:39,780
- And I think this is really the essence, actually,

311
00:18:39,780 --> 00:18:43,180
of it, that sense of if we...

312
00:18:43,180 --> 00:18:45,680
Perhaps, the word there again is trust.

313
00:18:46,300 --> 00:18:51,840
When we step back, and we allow the world

314
00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:54,320
to arise and cease.

315
00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:59,380
So often, in Buddhist jargon,

316
00:18:59,380 --> 00:19:03,080
there is this sense of, you know,

317
00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:06,835
it sums up everything that arises, ceases,

318
00:19:06,835 --> 00:19:12,750
and on there is a great emphasis
for many people of wanting so badly

319
00:19:12,750 --> 00:19:16,040
to make everything go to cessation

320
00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:20,140
so we become detached, we become the subtle one

321
00:19:20,140 --> 00:19:25,070
who is observing this dream, you know,

322
00:19:25,070 --> 00:19:31,780
this slightly constructed self
of a somebody who is beyond it.

323
00:19:32,540 --> 00:19:35,460
But actually, if we fully

324
00:19:37,180 --> 00:19:40,260
allow something to arise,

325
00:19:41,630 --> 00:19:45,310
that is what I'm really excited about,
these things, actually.

326
00:19:45,310 --> 00:19:50,030
That act of trust, that sense of curiosity,

327
00:19:51,630 --> 00:19:55,350
this is a complete new something.

328
00:19:57,100 --> 00:19:58,780
And so it's something almost with like,

329
00:19:58,780 --> 00:20:00,120
it takes me a bit...

330
00:20:00,120 --> 00:20:01,670
I don't have any safety.

331
00:20:01,670 --> 00:20:05,290
It drives me a bit in an uncertain territory

332
00:20:05,290 --> 00:20:09,270
and then, if I fully let this come in,

333
00:20:11,120 --> 00:20:13,780
and I don't know what will happen.

334
00:20:13,780 --> 00:20:14,980
Will it ever end?

335
00:20:14,980 --> 00:20:16,670
What will happen to me?

336
00:20:16,670 --> 00:20:19,820
Oh dear, I better go back to seeing

337
00:20:19,820 --> 00:20:21,620
or whatever ways we have,

338
00:20:21,620 --> 00:20:23,750
but no, can I trust in..?

339
00:20:23,750 --> 00:20:28,215
If I let it, if I welcome it as it comes,

340
00:20:28,215 --> 00:20:30,690
and then the question is,

341
00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:34,170
can I then witness,

342
00:20:34,170 --> 00:20:38,260
can I then, again, see it as it goes?

343
00:20:38,260 --> 00:20:40,140
Yet another condition.

344
00:20:41,010 --> 00:20:44,138
So in a way, you know, it allows that flow of life.

345
00:20:44,138 --> 00:20:46,320
- So creative.
- It is.

346
00:20:46,850 --> 00:20:49,060
It's another wonderful expression.

347
00:20:49,060 --> 00:20:51,931
It is endlessly creative.

348
00:20:51,931 --> 00:20:54,230
And you and I are, again,

349
00:20:55,150 --> 00:20:56,880
we are creations in it.

350
00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:58,510
- Yes, wonderful.

351
00:20:58,510 --> 00:21:00,092
- It is, isn't it?

352
00:21:00,092 --> 00:21:04,843
- And perhaps one more question here, Suvaco.

353
00:21:04,843 --> 00:21:07,223
What about suffering?

354
00:21:07,223 --> 00:21:09,680
Seeing and suffering, if you like.

355
00:21:10,540 --> 00:21:13,950
Buddhism is hot on the end of suffering, I think.

356
00:21:13,950 --> 00:21:16,380
- Yes, I think it is,

357
00:21:16,380 --> 00:21:20,370
it, again, is on the...

358
00:21:23,180 --> 00:21:26,100
How shall I put it in a few words?

359
00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:30,580
Perhaps, in the Buddhist corner

360
00:21:30,580 --> 00:21:32,080
on the spiritual market,

361
00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:35,740
particularly the doctrinal take,

362
00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:39,520
a way in which the word,

363
00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:42,400
the classical word dukkha,

364
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:47,530
which means stressful, as if you knew

365
00:21:48,290 --> 00:21:50,650
everything that arises and ceases,

366
00:21:50,650 --> 00:21:54,070
by its nature, it is changeable,

367
00:21:54,070 --> 00:21:57,056
and it is stressful.

368
00:21:57,056 --> 00:22:00,590
It is not a value judgment, it just is.

369
00:22:00,590 --> 00:22:02,990
That is how this universe is.

370
00:22:04,380 --> 00:22:07,220
So, recognizing that it is like this,

371
00:22:08,780 --> 00:22:11,390
that there is a sense of (sighs),

372
00:22:11,390 --> 00:22:14,565
we don't expect it to be otherwise.

373
00:22:14,565 --> 00:22:16,501
I think that's the key.

374
00:22:16,501 --> 00:22:22,210
The suffering comes because
we expect conditions to be otherwise.

375
00:22:25,130 --> 00:22:31,530
So, there is that level of daring to say yes to life.

376
00:22:32,820 --> 00:22:34,810
- Including all.

377
00:22:34,810 --> 00:22:35,960
- Hopefully.

378
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:38,260
And then I say, you know, ooh.

379
00:22:38,260 --> 00:22:41,786
When you say the ooh, touch wood. (laughs)

380
00:22:41,786 --> 00:22:45,310
Because we all experience these moments, you know,

381
00:22:45,310 --> 00:22:51,580
when it is overwhelming.

382
00:22:52,810 --> 00:22:55,410
I think my experience has been, Richard,

383
00:22:55,410 --> 00:22:56,980
that actually,

384
00:22:57,940 --> 00:23:00,470
the bare experience of being

385
00:23:02,030 --> 00:23:05,910
a human being in a separate form,

386
00:23:05,910 --> 00:23:09,157
and experiencing the world through the senses

387
00:23:09,157 --> 00:23:12,028
even under best conditions,

388
00:23:12,028 --> 00:23:15,950
it is a rather overwhelming experience.

389
00:23:15,950 --> 00:23:18,930
And to acknowledge also

390
00:23:18,930 --> 00:23:21,790
that often we are overwhelmed,

391
00:23:21,790 --> 00:23:25,970
so when people act out of patterns of fear

392
00:23:25,970 --> 00:23:28,510
and violence and self contraction,

393
00:23:28,510 --> 00:23:30,580
to hold both ourselves and others

394
00:23:30,580 --> 00:23:32,370
with that sense of it is

395
00:23:32,370 --> 00:23:36,040
and it really comes from a place of overwhelm.

396
00:23:37,020 --> 00:23:40,180
- And how does what we might call the seeing

397
00:23:40,340 --> 00:23:41,450
or whatever you want to call it,

398
00:23:41,450 --> 00:23:46,290
how does that help you cope with

399
00:23:46,290 --> 00:23:49,860
that kind of situation?

400
00:23:49,860 --> 00:23:50,980
- It doesn't.

401
00:23:51,190 --> 00:23:53,650
I will put it slightly different,

402
00:23:53,650 --> 00:23:56,050
that it has never been my experience

403
00:23:56,050 --> 00:23:59,230
that "seeing" helps me.

404
00:23:59,230 --> 00:24:02,235
Again, that's making a thing out of seeing.

405
00:24:02,235 --> 00:24:04,040
What I notice is

406
00:24:06,220 --> 00:24:08,710
seeing doesn't solve anything,

407
00:24:09,270 --> 00:24:12,580
but it dissolves the one,

408
00:24:12,580 --> 00:24:16,657
even just for a moment, so like now,

409
00:24:16,657 --> 00:24:22,320
it dissolves the one who "thinks"

410
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,460
or feels like he has a problem.

411
00:24:26,450 --> 00:24:30,600
And of course, as it is,

412
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:32,150
it can be sometimes, you know,

413
00:24:32,150 --> 00:24:34,940
the overwhelm that is so strong that I'm,

414
00:24:34,940 --> 00:24:37,540
a second later, the somebody's back again.

415
00:24:37,540 --> 00:24:38,500
(Richard gasps)

416
00:24:38,500 --> 00:24:40,990
And then again, the very act of seeing,

417
00:24:43,140 --> 00:24:44,390
let go,

418
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:47,120
so here it is again.

419
00:24:47,120 --> 00:24:50,960
So the seeing doesn't solve anything, I would say.

420
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:54,420
I prefer, my experiences being it dissolves

421
00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:00,078
the one who thinks that this is a problem.

422
00:25:00,078 --> 00:25:06,278
And emotional distress takes
sometimes a little bit longer.

423
00:25:06,278 --> 00:25:09,320
It certainly can dissolve immediately,

424
00:25:10,750 --> 00:25:12,479
the thinking.

425
00:25:12,479 --> 00:25:15,430
If you find that the mind is spinning around,

426
00:25:17,380 --> 00:25:18,770
there, it's gone.

427
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,830
And yet of course, (inaudible),

428
00:25:23,830 --> 00:25:27,680
there can still be a reaction that sticks.

429
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:29,590
And that also, so that's again,

430
00:25:29,590 --> 00:25:31,560
so then we bring attention to that.

431
00:25:35,420 --> 00:25:37,650
And that can be a little bit more gradual.

432
00:25:41,450 --> 00:25:42,750
- Wonderful.

433
00:25:44,390 --> 00:25:46,910
Share the two voice in the one silence--

434
00:25:46,910 --> 00:25:48,260
- It is.
- Do you see it?

435
00:25:48,260 --> 00:25:49,780
Coming out of nowhere.

436
00:25:52,670 --> 00:25:54,726
Thank you very much.

437
00:25:54,726 --> 00:25:56,230
- Thank you, Richard.

438
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:01,720
(soft piano music)