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rC3 preroll music
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Herald: Yeah, and the next talk I'm very
proud to announce, we have a speaker who's
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coming in from sunny California and he's
an attorney, he's working for Harvard.
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He's doing so many things and he's
fighting for our digital rights. Very
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happy to say hi. Welcome.
Kurt Opsahl: Thank you!
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Herald: And "Spot the Surveillance" is the
topic. We'll see what we haven't seen
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before. And I'm very happy that you're
here and... Kurt Opsahl. Please, let us
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know what's up. Thank you.
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Kurt: Thank you. Hello, everybody, my name
is Kurt, also I'm the deputy executive
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director general counsel of the Electronic
Frontier Foundation. I'm here to talk to
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you about observing police surveillance of
protests. So why do we want to observe
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police at protests? Well, because protests
are political expression. And the Council
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of Europe put it the right of individuals
to gather with other people and make their
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collective voice heard is fundamental to a
properly functioning democracy. And this
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is a right which is protected by the
European Convention on Human Rights and
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other international rights treaties. But
surveillance - consumer's rights. So
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knowing what technologies are used can
help you understand the threats to your
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privacy and security, as well as provide
tools to advocate for limits on police use
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of surveillance; surveillance that may
chill people's right to express themselves
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on these public issues. Just as an analog
surveillance historically has been used as
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a tool of repression. Nowadays,
policymakers and the public have to
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understand that the threat posed by
emerging technologies is a danger to human
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rights, and they need to understand that
to successfully defend human rights in the
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digital age. So journalists who are
reporting on protest action should know
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the surveillance that is in use. Activists
who are advocating for limitations on
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police use of surveillance need to know
what surveillance is being used to
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effectively advocate. And legal observers
may need to document the use of
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surveillance at protests in order to
challenge the police actions at the
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protest or challenge the police policies
that are being used after the protest with
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the footage they've obtained. So where are
we going today? We're going to provide a
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lot of information about various types of
surveillance technologies in use by police
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around the world. We're going to look at
what the appearance is, how it works, what
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kind of data they collect and how they're
used by police. And at the end a few other
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resources available for those who want to
dive a little bit deeper on the topic. So
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police surveillance technology is
everywhere. It's on the police themselves,
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on their vehicles, on the roadways. It
could be above you in the air, surrounding
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you in the environment, can be a lot of
different places and you need to know
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where. The police officers themselves
often find in the form of either body worn
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cameras or additional devices that they're
using, which are basically mobile
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biometric sensors. Body-Worn cameras or
technology that's come out become more
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popular over the last decade or so.
Originally was something that was being
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used as a way to provide police
accountability that give a record of their
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interactions with the public. And maybe,
for example, could you show police
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brutality or maybe deter police brutality?
But there are two-way streets: these are
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often used to surveil protesters, and the
footage may later be used to support
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arrests and charges. For example, we use
this NPR story where after a rally weeks
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later, the police went identifying people
through body cam footage and brought
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action against them for obstructing the
roadway, part of the civil disobedience of
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the protest, based on finding them on the
body camera footage. They can be in a all
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variety of places, so if you're looking
for Body-Worn cameras, you got to look at
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different places to see where they might
be. So a couple of places they might see
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them: on the head - head mounted camera.
So it might be on the glasses on the side,
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could be a lens right in the center. The
center one is pretty hard to find, but the
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ones on the side or might be part of the
glasses or the helmet they're wearing are
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generally pretty obvious. These ones,
they're not particularly common, but they
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do happen. Shoulder mounted cameras also a
little bit less common, but they have an
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interesting feature: in this case they're
using the Warrior 360 from Blue Line
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Innovations as an example, and it is a
dome camera that looks all directions, 360
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degrees off the officer's left shoulder.
All most cameras like a front facing
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camera will capture only 180 degrees.
Chest mounted cameras are the most common
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and these are being used very, very
widely. We give some examples here from
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Amsterdam, Middelburg and from West
Midlands Police in the EU... or soon to be
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not in EU for I guess Britain. And there
are several known types: Excelon, Wolfcom
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and Watchguard are very common. They
operate in similar manners, though, with
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some differences. And you can take a look
at some of the examples that are available
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to those companies webpages where they
will explain the products they have an
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offer and see what matches up for your
jurisdiction. Or you can also look in for
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news article. Oftentimes there's a news
article about what may the first policy to
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bring Body_Worn cameras is introduced in a
particular police department. The're also
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smartphone based cameras, and these are
kind of the low end, it's basically just
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an Android cell phone using its internal
camera with an app that does recording
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placed in a pocket. So the camera is a
little bit above the clock and you can see
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forward. But it's also a very subtle
technique. And it could be easily confused
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if you were looking for someone just
starting their phone to their pocket. It
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also might be clipped somewhere on the on
their uniform. But if you see anything
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where the camera is facing outward and
it's attached to the officer, there's a
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good chance that that is a Body-Worn
camera and the setup is on play. Last of
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the Body-Worn cameras will talk about the
semi-obscured cams. So this is an example
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for coverable Body-Worn,
Body-Worn Utility, and it is
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partially concealed, basically looks like
a button on someone's uniform that if
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you're not looking closely, you might not
notice. But if you see, if you know, it
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appears where you would expect actually
not to have a button, it's slightly
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larger, looks a little bit different. It
looks like a camera if you look closely.
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But if you're looking at a distance,
you're not particularly paying attention.
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You might not see it at all. In addition
to Body-Worn cameras, there are often used
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mobile biometric devices, so these can be
handheld scanners, could be a tablet or a
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camera phone, and in some cases it just is
a camera, which had an applicable app on
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it. But we'll see that... so how to tell
whether they're using a phone or whether
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using as a biometric scanner? By the body
language. So, for example, if the police
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officer is holding up the phone trying to
capture someone's face, that is most
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likely because they have a capturing of
photo and they may be connecting that to a
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facial recognition application. And you
also will see mobile fingerprinting. So as
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an example, in the United Kingdom, they
have an app on the officer's phone
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combined with a fingerprint scanning
device and takes the people's fingerprints
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and checks them against some databases.
One is a database of everyone that police
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have detained, putting them into the
database and then checking against it for
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new people. And the other one is a
database for immigration, collected at the
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border when someone comes into the UK. And
this allows the police to do a very rapid
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check of their records on somebody in the
field. Some of these devices are
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multimodal. We'll do both of them to be
able to do fingerprints and take photos
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for facial recognition. This here is the
Dataworks Plus Evolution - does it both,
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and that can be convenient for the
officers, but it's a little bit more
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dangerous to civil liberties. And some of
the Body-Worn cameras, in this example
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Wolfcam, has a biometric capability built
in facial recognition so it can use its
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regular camera functions and of course,
all of them to take the picture. That
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picture could be uploaded to a database
and facial recognition will be done later.
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But this one is designed to streamline
that process. So take a moment, as an
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aside, to talk about facial recognition in
Europe per Algorithmwatch. The
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organization says that there are at least
11 police agencies in Europe who use
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facial recognition. I show them on the map
here. The UK Court of Appeal found that
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automatic facial recognition technology
used by the South Wales police was not
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lawful. However, elsewhere in the UK, they
are still using it. The Metropolitan
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Police in London is doing a life facial
recognition throughout the city of London,
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and it contends that the situation is
distinguishable from South Wales. So that
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doesn't apply to them. We'll see how that
turns out. There's also been some pressure
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on the European Commission to put a ban in
place or put restrictions on facial
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recognition. And in September, there was a
quote from the commissioners saying that
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they were considering whether we need
additional safeguards or whether we need
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to go further and not allow facial
recognition cases in certain areas or even
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temporarily, which is not a particularly
strong statement. But at least they are
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considering the idea and something that
one can advocate for the United States, a
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number of jurisdictions at the local
level, cities have put restrictions on
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their police departments so they cannot
use facial recognition. It's a growing
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movement. And while a national or
international law that would limit police
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use of facial recognition would be best
for civil liberties, you can also start at
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your local level. All right, what we
wouldn't be on the police officers
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ourselves, whereelse - vehicles and
roadways and this can come up for the
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vehicles, roadways adjacent to the
protests and within the protests
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themselves. So adjacent to the protests is
looking at the exits and entrances to the
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protest areas. And they may use existing
ANPR or place new ANPR, or ALPR -
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automated numberplate reserve called ALPR
in the United States. These are cameras.
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And they pointed towards a roadway to
where cars will be. They are designed to
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take a picture, determine what the license
plate / number plate is, optical character
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resolution. They will eventually...
recognition that will eventually be able
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to see what it is, check the database and
find out who registered for that car. And
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it can be uploaded to a central server for
police to search, can add vehicles to a
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watch list. It is a very powerful tool
because many people are using cars to get
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to and from protests. And even if they're
going in in a group, at least one member
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of the group would have to have the car.
And it has been used to go after someone
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after protest. So in this case, it was
from 11 of years back. A citizen of the UK
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went to a protest and was later pulled
over because they had captured the license
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plate while the protest added to database
and then used that to pull them on. So if
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there is a protest, the police might come
in and use a portable number plate reader.
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So here's some examples of what they might
look like either on a tripod or on a
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trailer, and they can set these up
basically anywhere. They would often be
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used at the entrance or exit to the zone
in which the protesters expected, to see
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who's coming in, coming out during the
protest time period and try to capture the
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crowd through their license plates. It
also now becoming more and more common on
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police cars. You can see a couple of
examples we have here. One - it shows a
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rather obvious in the top one, it is a UK
police car. And see, the camera sticks
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out, fairly obvious that they have a
camera on the light bar; the lower from
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the French police - less obvious, it looks
like an ordinary light bar. You might be
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able to tell that it's a little bit
different than some other ones, because it
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has sort of a funny thing in the center,
but it's a pretty subtle approach. So
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there's all kinds, they might also be
mounted on the hood of a trunk and may be
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more or less obvious. But take a look
at... close and also take a look at what
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the police cars behavior. If they are
driving, for example, slowly down the
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street next to a whole bunch of parked
car, as it may be that they are doing
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"gridding", a practice known as
"gridding", where they are looking for
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capturing every parked car's license plate
in a particular zone. Slow and steady in
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order to do that. And then there are the
fixed number plate readers, these are
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often at traffic lights and intersections
on the highways, any sort of high speed
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toll road will have them. They also are...
here, they're used for other purposes,
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like to establish fines, to check border
crossings. They are very common fixtures
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on on roadways. So a protest happens in a
zone that already has them. The police
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will be able to access that information
and know who entered or exited that area
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to look around. All right, and then within
the protest itself. There may be adding
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additional surveillance capacities, so in
this example, we have a... the Santa Fe
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Police Department knew about a protest
that was protesting a statue and some
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people would take action to remove the
statue. So in order to capture that
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through surveillance, they placed this
trailer, which has a number of camera and
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audio capabilities and just have rolled it
in right next to the statue to capture the
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protest action. And these cameras can come
in a variety of forms. In this case we got
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watch towers. Personal controling cameras
can be in the watchtower or they can be
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operating remotely. As you can see, they
are using a scissor jack to raise it about
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that van, the other one is an assembly.
It's not easy for someone to get in and
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out of there. So it may have a person, but
somehow inconvenient to actually have a
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person inside these watchtowers, but it's
much more convenient to use their built-In
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surveillance capabilities and remotely
observe the area around the watchtower
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with those cameras. And then there also
pure surveillance units. This is an
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example here showing four cameras raised
pole and just adding surveillance
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capability basically to anywhere. Some of
them are much more complex: thermal
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imaging cameras. Thermal imaging often
come from the leading company is FLIR, it
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stands for "Forward-looking Infrared".
FLIR system makes a lot of these devices
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and makes them available to police
departments. Thermal imaging cameras allow
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the police to be able to conduct
surveillance after dark where the lighting
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is poor, where they might not be able to
identify individuals very easily. Instead,
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they can use their heat signature and be
able to continue to monitor the protest
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when the lighting conditions are less and
a lot of things on protest will happen at
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night, candlelight vigils were
commonplace. So police will be looking to
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thermal imaging to make sure that they
have strong surveillance capabilities
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after dark. Another thing you might see at
a protest is an emergency command vehicle.
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These are often massive bus sized vehicles
and they do have some surveillance
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capabilities. They might have some
cameras, but more often they are command
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and control. So they are the places where
somebody would be receiving footage from
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cameras and operating cameras remotely,
like a communications with another people
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in the field. They also may have some
built in capabilities and they may provide
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the focal point, were a local connection,
they're getting information from local
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devices and then they have the uplink in
the command center. One thing I wanted to
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point out, it's a common misconception or
something that comes up a lot where people
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are concerned about police surveillance,
as we'll see an unmarked vehicle or a van
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with no windows. It may even have some
antennas or satellite. And well that is
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possibly an undercover police vehicle, you
shouldn't assume that vehicle belongs to
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law enforcement. That could very easily be
a news media vehicle. News media also goes
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to protests. They also have satellite
uplinks and antennas, look very similar.
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And in some cases, the media has a
security situation there. They're worried
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that there may be theft of equipment and
they have unmarked vans. So it is worth
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noting that there is an unmarked vehicle,
but you shouldn't necessarily assume that
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it is a police unmarked vehicle. Also,
sometimes people see especially they see
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some antennas or satellite dish vehicles
that maybe that's were "stingrays". This
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is a misconception. Stingrays are pretty
small and they don't require an external
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antenna. You could put a stingray inside a
trunk of a car, maybe it will be a
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briefcase sized. So it would be unlikely
that if you're going to use a stingray or
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similar, IMSI-catcher that you would
want to put it in the vehicle. I don't
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need to put in a vehicle that has its own
antenna. There have been not very much
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documentation of these technologies being
used in the US domestic protests. They
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have been used, we know it, in some
protests and more authoritarian countries.
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So it's unclear how often they will are
being used and they are very dangerous in
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the surveillance. So It's aim is
capturing, it is able to determine what
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cell phones are nearby, get a unique
identifier with that cell phone, and in
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many cases be able to use that information
to determine while individuals president
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protests. That information has been used
after some protests in Ukraine, for
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example, to send a text message to people
telling them: we're onto you, we know you
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were there, which can be very intimidating
to individuals. But the challenge is that
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you're trying to observe police
surveillance in the protest, it is hard
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for you to observe it because they are
often hidden. You may be able to find out
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more information later through
investigative journalism or public record
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requests, or news reports. If somebody is
prosecuted using that information, it may
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become obvious. It is difficult to see it
at the protest itself. So next category,
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look it up in the sky. There are lots of
forms of aerial surveillance or for the
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agencies to surveil protests from above
using traditional aircraft, on board
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pilots and as well as remotely operated
aerial systems - drones. Law enforcement
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may also use these aerial vehicles to
communicate with the crowd, to use the
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loudspeakers to send a message to the
crowd. Order them to disperse. And we've
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seen this actually drones with
loudspeakers being used by the German
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police in order to tell people to stay
apart - Corona That same technology can be
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used for protests. And these planes and
drones will often be equipped with high
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definition cameras, capable of either
extremely wide angle to get the whole
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scene or an extreme zoom where they might
be able to zoom in on a particular person,
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particular license plate, and then use
that data later, partnering that the
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aircraft with license plate recognition,
facial recognition, video analytics and
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even a cell-site simulator inside the
aircraft. And we know this has happened in
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a recent protest in Texas. A Texas police
drone got some footage of a protester
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allegedly throwing a water bottle. They
took that video, they took the picture,
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put it out, offered a cash reward, an
anonymous tip to turn the kid in and
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protester was prosecuted. So police are
definitely using these things to gather
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information at protesters. So a common
method for a larger police departments is
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fixed-wing aircraft; for smaller ones -
they may use private contractors to
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provide these fixed-wing aircraft. So this
is an example of the kind of plane you use
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by a company called Persistent
Surveillance Systems. It rents out a plane
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like this, well not this exact one, you
look up that tail number, it's going to be
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to a different company. But the same model
of the Cessna 207-A. And these will circle
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around the protest using their cameras to
observe protesters below. And the
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advantage of planes is they can often
circle for quite a long time and provide a
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wide view on the area. Also, helicopters,
helicopters will often be seen hovering
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over a protest, they are a little bit
easier to maneuver and be able to go
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backwards and forwards over the protest
that are used by police to continually
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observe. And we'll use two examples here.
One of them from the Oakland Police
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Department, the other one from the
Rineland Police Department. In both cases,
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they have a FLIR attached to the
helicopter, a forward looking infrared
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that would allow them, in addition to
regular camera capabilities, to use
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thermal imaging to follow someone at a
protest or follow what's going on after
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dark. We can also see that some
helicopters will have spotlights, so that
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they can signal to officers on the ground
who to follow, who do pay attention to.
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Another thing for both fixed wing and
helicopters: they look for the tail
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number. In most jurisdictions, they're
required to have a tail number visible,
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and then you could look up that tail
number on services like Flight Aware and
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be able to find out further information
about what that plane has been doing, what
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the helicopter has been doing, as well as
the ownership. Finally, drones. Drones are
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becoming very commonplace because they're
getting cheaper all the time and having
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additional capacities; drones are also
known as unmanned aerial vehicles - UAVs;
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UAS - unmanned aerial systems and a lot of
police departments are getting them for
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their capabilities using what's called a
quadrotor. And they can be controlled by
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remote control, have a camera built into
this and be useful for getting above the
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scene view. So one way to spot it... well,
first of all - just listen to it, they
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make kind of have a distinctive noise,
sometimes are really marked as police.
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Also look for the pilots operating nearby.
So oftentimes a patrol out there,
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sometimes they are labeled like in the
upper left there, it says "police drone
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operator" - pretty easy to identify. All
the times they might have like "drone",
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"UAV", "aviation unit" on their uniform,
or a nearby police vehicle. The other
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thing is that if you identify a drone,
there're often within line of sight is
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going to be the operator. So when do you
see the drone look around and see, if
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someone has the controls in their hand, is
looking up the drone, you can probably
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identify the operator and go look for
information that might have uniform about
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who is operating that particular drone.
But also, keep in mind, both for drones
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and other aircraft, that it's not
necessarily the police. Journalists and
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activists will often fly drones over
protest, news helicopters for a large
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protests are going to be more common than
police helicopters. And many times they
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are labeled with picture of the BBC News
Copter. But this means that just as you
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see a helicopter that has both a camera
and is flying over the protest, that does
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not necessarily mean that it's a police
helicopter. Also, the technology, which is
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actually not very commonplace outside of
protests in war zones, but - the
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"Dronekiller" technology, which is
basically a real gun that knocks drones
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out of the sky, sending radio signals to
interfere with the drones operation and
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cause it to fall and crash. These have
been used in Iraq and Afghanistan and the
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technology could be certainly used, but we
really haven't seen it used more freely.
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Just wanted to tell you about it
because... oh, my God, Dronekillers. All
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right, last place to look for police
technology - in the environment around
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you. There will be in many places camera
networks. So a lot of the cameras will see
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a neighborhood will be private cameras,
will be police cameras, will be cameras
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being used by city, non police agencies.
That can be a lot of cameras. This also
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means that you're trying to observe what
cameras are going on. There's too much
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information. There'll be so many cameras
in many areas that you could spend all
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your time documenting, observing the
cameras and these other things. So you
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might not want to spend all your time
paying attention to that, because you can
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go back later at any point and see the
fixed cameras. But there are a couple of
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things that... first, identifying them for
two different brands to identify. But
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here's some information about the kinds of
cameras that are available. Bullet cameras
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are directional, so you can sort of see
which way it's pointing and what it would
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be covering from that. Then you have dome
cameras, which are designed, so you can't
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see which way it's pointing, or at least
you can see maybe some of this area one
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hundred and eighty degrees. But the exact
direction is pointing is obscured by the
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dome. Pan-Tilt-Zoom cameras can change
which way they're pointing. They can
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sometimes be coupled with a dome camera so
that the dome camera can both change the
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way it's looking and obscure which way its
looking. Thermal imaging cameras and ALPR
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cameras are also becoming a fixed
locations and we are all having to do with
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traffic control. Thermal is actually not
as common. That is mostly used as a
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technology that is vehicles, is kind of
expensive. But in this case, the picture
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shown is a thermal imaging camera. So
sometimes people will go to that
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additional expense. And one subcategory of
all the cameras that are environment are
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going to be police observation devices, so
the category of sets of sensors which are
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operated by the police and they may
included multiple cameras, gunshot
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detection, facial recognition. For
example, in the United Kingdom, say in the
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city of London, is doing live facial
recognition as a police observation
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devices are a collection of these cameras
in one location. Sometimes they're marked
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as police, sometimes they are not. And
there is the way you would suspect that
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it's a police observation device is - if
it has a lot of different sensors in one
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location trying to cover the whole ground
around, then that is the kind of thing you
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would see most frequently from a police
office image. And then finally, Smart
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Street Lights. The Smart Street Lights
have a number of wonderful applications.
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Some initiatives like in the US Smart
Cities and the EU E-Street Initiative are
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exploiting cities to use more Smart Street
Lights, because they could turn down the
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power usage when the light is less needed.
And there's some advance towards a project
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by the Arnold University of Applied
Sciences has a technology, which will use
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motion detection, sound detection. Being
able to tell that there are people walking
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nearby and brighten their path. Sounds
great. But the same kind of technology
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00:31:00,414 --> 00:31:06,174
being able to detect motion, being able to
have audio signals, video signals - can be
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used for surveillance. So here on the
slide we show the smart lighting
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capabilities being advertised by Intel. In
addition to some things that you might
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expect, like being able to adjusted for
traffic patterns, provide when needed.
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They talk about crime
investigations, monitor parking
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violations, safety announcements that are
coming from the smart cameras. So all of
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these technologies are possible and
hopefully this will not become a
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commonplace use. But if it is, it would
mean that a surveillance device is
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everywhere along every street where
they're putting these devices. Wich
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lightning the city you are lightning the
city with surveillance. So has it been
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used? Yes. The city of San Diego had a
number of protests surrounding the protest
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around George Floyd, and they used these
thirty five times. They searched
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information gathered through the Smart
Street Light Network for evidence in
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criminal cases coming out of that protest.
So what additional resources are there?
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There's plenty of additional resources, if
you wanted to try to read more - and I
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encourage you to take this only as a
starting point for a lot more to learn. So
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we'll start out with a very important
resource. If you're someone who's going to
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go, whether as an activist, as a
protester, as a journalist, you should
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prepare yourself for some surveillance
self defense: at ssd.eff.org we have an
356
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"Attending a Protest" guide. Go there and
learn important tips on protecting
357
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yourself when you're going to protests.
Put your device with fulldesk encryption:
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a strong unique password, turning off the
biometric unlock, use end-to-end
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encryption for messages and calls, walking
or taking a bicycle to get to the protest,
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sort of a vehicle, which couldn't be
subjected to a ANPR / ALPR device. Wear a
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mask, you should wear a mask for Covid
anyway. But if you wear a mask, get a big:
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the larger the mask, the more it protects
you. There is also recently a study that
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showed that they're making efforts to try
to make facial recognition continue on
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despite people's use of masks. And there
was a study that showed that red and black
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masks were harder for the AI to be able to
determine who was behind the mask. So wear
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a red or black mask. If you get one that
covers more of your face like a bandana,
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it's going to be harder for the facial
recognition algorithms. So do some things
368
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to protect yourself, both from Covid and
from surveillance. If you want to also
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just practice it out, you can go to our
Spot the Surveillance. This is an online
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program, you can do the desktop version or
virtual reality version, where it places
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you in a virtual street corner with some
surveillance devices nearby. And you can
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look around and try to identify all of the
surveillance devices that you see. It
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takes just a few minutes to go through the
exercise, but it's a good way to practice
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your skills and identify what surveillance
might be around on the street. And if you
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want to get a lot more information about
any of these devices, go to EFF Street-
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Level Surveillance project: eff.org/sls -
street level surveillance. This will
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provide more detailed information about
various technologies that are in use. That
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can be a good starting point, especially
if you found out what is being used in
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your jurisdiction. Go there and find out
more about it. And you can also find out
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just what is going on more generally with
these kinds of technologies: eff.org/sls.
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All right. Well, thank you. That comes to
the close of my talk. Thank you for
382
00:35:06,858 --> 00:35:19,175
turning in. And now let me turn it over to
my future self for Q&A. Thanks you.
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Herald: Welcome back. Thanks so much Kurt.
Now we have some time for questions and
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it's getting more and more. I'm just
hurrying up. OK, are there devices, apps
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or services developed or run by private
companies and who makes sure the data is
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not directly sold to third parties?
Kurt: So, yes, there are private networks.
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And one of the things we talked about just
now is there's a lot of private camera
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networks that are providing information to
the police, sometimes private networks
389
00:35:54,341 --> 00:35:59,157
going through a registry where police from
organizers ask people to volunteer, put
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their information into a registry. So they
are sort of explicitly saying they're
391
00:36:02,733 --> 00:36:06,589
going to turn over their information to
the police or other things like Amazon's
392
00:36:06,589 --> 00:36:11,702
ring camera. They have been promoting it
as a antitheft tool, trying to stop
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package stuff stolen from doors. But this
also is creating a panopticon of
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everyone's doorbell camera. If they're all
using ring will be provided... get the
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video and will provide it to the police.
So and many of these organizations, you
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00:36:28,262 --> 00:36:32,057
know, if they're larger than they will
have some some privacy practices, probably
397
00:36:32,057 --> 00:36:37,326
policies. But by and large, they will talk
about the privacy of the person who owns
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00:36:37,326 --> 00:36:43,585
the marketplace and not really consider
the bystanders, the people walking by. So
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00:36:43,585 --> 00:36:48,402
if you have a doorbell camera at your
front door that can hear audio, so maybe
400
00:36:48,402 --> 00:36:52,262
someone could ring your bell and say
hello. It will also capture people walking
401
00:36:52,262 --> 00:37:00,077
by and those people's privacy is important
to be considered.
402
00:37:00,077 --> 00:37:06,389
Herald: All right, then we have: what hope
do we have against all this, which best
403
00:37:06,389 --> 00:37:11,332
case legal countermeasures do we have by
been attending protests? And the another
404
00:37:11,332 --> 00:37:16,758
one, which I would connect directly: is it
possible to intervene against surveillance
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00:37:16,758 --> 00:37:21,440
based on laws or presumption of innocence?
Kurt: Yes.
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00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:26,064
Herald: I don't know if German laws are
meant, but maybe you still can say
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00:37:26,064 --> 00:37:28,062
something?
Kurt: Well, I mean, so there's many
408
00:37:28,062 --> 00:37:32,582
different laws that might be an issue. I
mean, we have an international audience
409
00:37:32,582 --> 00:37:35,924
here, but I think there are some also
basic human rights principles that apply
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00:37:35,924 --> 00:37:41,014
to many jurisdictions. But I would say
actually one of the most effective tools
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00:37:41,014 --> 00:37:44,883
to push back against this kind of police
surveillance is working locally with the,
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00:37:44,883 --> 00:37:52,266
like, a city, the mayor, the city council
and a number of locations have passed
413
00:37:52,266 --> 00:37:56,183
rules about what their police can do
against their citizens. So putting
414
00:37:56,183 --> 00:38:01,452
limitations on what police can do at the
local level, where your activities in the
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00:38:01,452 --> 00:38:06,552
city, which you live, taking things to
your representative government and saying
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00:38:06,552 --> 00:38:10,974
we need to have some limitations on this,
we need to have it within civilian
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00:38:10,974 --> 00:38:14,875
controls for the police themselves are not
deciding what technologies to use, but it
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00:38:14,875 --> 00:38:17,762
has to pass through an elected
representative. And I think that is
419
00:38:17,762 --> 00:38:23,332
probably one of the most effective ways to
at least start change where you live. But
420
00:38:23,332 --> 00:38:27,462
you can also try and promote that to your
national legislature, state legislatures,
421
00:38:27,462 --> 00:38:32,673
go up several levels. And one of the
things that I hope comes out of this
422
00:38:32,673 --> 00:38:34,902
guide, where people getting more
information about what kind of
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00:38:34,902 --> 00:38:38,573
surveillance is available, so that they
can go to their representatives, go
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00:38:38,573 --> 00:38:42,778
through the political process with the
information of what tool use something
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00:38:42,778 --> 00:38:48,212
that they have drawn a line about. Go to
your representative and say we need to
426
00:38:48,212 --> 00:38:52,166
make sure that the information that
they're gathered is being used in a manner
427
00:38:52,166 --> 00:38:56,299
consistent with human rights principles.
And we need civilian control from the
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00:38:56,299 --> 00:39:00,552
local government on how to do.
Herald: Who's controlling the controler
429
00:39:00,552 --> 00:39:13,972
instances, yes. We have more questions.
OK, so the police operate equipment like
430
00:39:13,972 --> 00:39:17,682
ANPR-reader IMSI-Catcher etc. , that get
information that they could get in a
431
00:39:17,682 --> 00:39:26,022
cheaper way, like reading traffic signs or
license plates, or cell info from
432
00:39:26,022 --> 00:39:33,712
operators. And is there a reason for that?
Especially concerning EU, because US
433
00:39:33,712 --> 00:39:42,282
differs a lot. And another question: has
police in EU, US been known to use illegal
434
00:39:42,282 --> 00:39:49,801
or questionable tech for surveillance?
Kurt: So I think on the first question
435
00:39:49,801 --> 00:39:57,190
about using things like ANPR to determine
license plates, this technology is common
436
00:39:57,190 --> 00:40:03,212
in the European Union, though by and large
it is being put in place for other
437
00:40:03,212 --> 00:40:08,370
reasons, not to get the protesters
necessarily. They are looking for, you
438
00:40:08,370 --> 00:40:12,409
know, making sure that people are paying a
toll or might be a speed trap on the
439
00:40:12,409 --> 00:40:17,431
autobahn, where it takes a picture of the
license plate of anyone traveling over a
440
00:40:17,431 --> 00:40:22,654
speed limit - in the places that have
speed limits on the part of the autobahn.
441
00:40:22,654 --> 00:40:28,773
And I think also it's being used for
enforcement of things like traffic
442
00:40:28,773 --> 00:40:33,916
citations: your cars parked on location
too long. They know who to send the bill
443
00:40:33,916 --> 00:40:41,123
to. And I think these technologies could
be repurposed for surveillance. And that's
444
00:40:41,123 --> 00:40:45,217
what we really need, is policies that are
ensuring that if these things are being
445
00:40:45,217 --> 00:40:49,739
used for a purpose, that the sort of the
citizenship agrees with in that
446
00:40:49,739 --> 00:40:54,100
jurisdiction to enforce parking, for
example, that is not also being repurposed
447
00:40:54,100 --> 00:40:59,288
against political activities and being
used at a wider scale than it was
448
00:40:59,288 --> 00:41:03,814
envisioned. Also, maybe, you know, it's
not a good thing to have perfect parking
449
00:41:03,814 --> 00:41:08,293
enforcement, you know, a lot of parking
fines were based on the notion that, like,
450
00:41:08,293 --> 00:41:12,646
you might not get caught every time and
when you change it, a system where
451
00:41:12,646 --> 00:41:17,395
previously the fines were set with the
notion that a lot of people would get away
452
00:41:17,395 --> 00:41:20,720
with it.. to I do, like, to make an
example of those who didn't. And then you
453
00:41:20,720 --> 00:41:24,600
changed that to perfect enforcement
because the computer, the ANPR system,
454
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:30,256
surveillance knows exactly the minute that
a fine is due and then assesses that fine.
455
00:41:30,256 --> 00:41:33,932
That actually changes the dynamic of power
between citizenship and the state
456
00:41:33,932 --> 00:41:38,630
significantly. And it will all be freeze
and forms of well, we're just trying to
457
00:41:38,630 --> 00:41:42,377
enforce the existing laws. How could you
be against that? But really, it changes
458
00:41:42,377 --> 00:41:45,885
the dynamic. And it's something that for
those who want to be an activist on this,
459
00:41:45,885 --> 00:41:49,851
again, talk to your local jurisdiction and
try and make sure that these things have
460
00:41:49,851 --> 00:41:52,794
safe and sane policies that respect human
rights.
461
00:41:52,794 --> 00:42:01,147
Herald: So I would interpret that like
prevention of... don't come on the idea
462
00:42:01,147 --> 00:42:05,635
that you need to to protect your data,
right? Fun.
463
00:42:05,635 --> 00:42:09,650
Kurt: And just turning to the another one.
Do we have information about whether
464
00:42:09,650 --> 00:42:14,618
police are misusing these technologies?
So, I mean, there's some isolated examples
465
00:42:14,618 --> 00:42:19,460
where people have misused their
technologies. And I use a couple of them
466
00:42:19,460 --> 00:42:23,331
in the slides. And there was someone who
went to a political protest. Their car was
467
00:42:23,331 --> 00:42:29,565
put into a database to get pulled over
later. And then also in South Wales, the
468
00:42:29,565 --> 00:42:36,839
court found that there the police use of
facial recognition was in violation of UK
469
00:42:36,839 --> 00:42:42,027
law, though, as I noted, not the
Metropolitan Police in London don't agree
470
00:42:42,027 --> 00:42:45,446
with that. They say it doesn't apply to
them. And I think actually use of facial
471
00:42:45,446 --> 00:42:49,851
recognition technologies is a very
tempting thing by police. They want to use
472
00:42:49,851 --> 00:42:56,297
it as much as possible, make it easy for
them. And I think you will see that. But
473
00:42:56,297 --> 00:43:01,312
the other piece of this is unless there
are rules that say here are limitations on
474
00:43:01,312 --> 00:43:05,507
how you can use these technologies and
they can use them without having to risk
475
00:43:05,507 --> 00:43:11,432
violating them. So we need to have those
rules in place. I hope that the Council of
476
00:43:11,432 --> 00:43:17,271
Europe puts at least a moratorium on
facial recognition for use for police. And
477
00:43:17,271 --> 00:43:22,844
until we can figure out how to use this
technology safely, it's kind of cool that
478
00:43:22,844 --> 00:43:25,680
you can unlock your phone in your face
without having to type in a password,
479
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:30,092
but... we want to make sure that
technology is used properly.
480
00:43:30,092 --> 00:43:35,242
Herald: OK, so I think you're going to be
around in the 2D world. You're going to
481
00:43:35,242 --> 00:43:41,252
explore that, you've told me before. Yeah,
there's more questions. I hope maybe you
482
00:43:41,252 --> 00:43:47,462
find him in the 2D world and you just ask
him there. Thanks so much. Thanks so much.
483
00:43:47,462 --> 00:43:52,698
Very nice having you. Bye Kurt.
Kurt: Bye.
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00:43:52,698 --> 00:43:52,754
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