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Format: Layer, Start, End, Style, Name, MarginL, MarginR, MarginV, Effect, Text
Dialogue: 0,0:00:01.44,0:00:02.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This is Stewart Patrick
Dialogue: 0,0:00:02.90,0:00:04.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,On this installment of the internationalist,
Dialogue: 0,0:00:04.53,0:00:06.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we'll be talking about\None of the biggest problems
Dialogue: 0,0:00:06.26,0:00:10.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,confronting the international community.\NThat's the scourge of transnational crime.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:10.19,0:00:14.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We're fortunate today to be joined by\None of the major experts in global crime,
Dialogue: 0,0:00:14.84,0:00:19.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Phil Williams who's the Posvar Chair\Nin international security at the
Dialogue: 0,0:00:19.15,0:00:21.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,University of Pittsburgh.\NPhil it's great to have you here.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:21.67,0:00:26.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,-Stewart, it's great to be here.\N-Absolutely delighted to see you again.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:26.28,0:00:29.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's often said that transnational\Ncriminals have been one of the
Dialogue: 0,0:00:29.92,0:00:33.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,biggest beneficiaries of globalization.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:33.08,0:00:36.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Is it true that transnational crime has\Nexploded since the end of the cold war?
Dialogue: 0,0:00:36.76,0:00:42.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And why has it been so hard for\Nnation states, either individually,
Dialogue: 0,0:00:42.75,0:00:45.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or collectively, to actually come\Nto grips with this phenomenon?
Dialogue: 0,0:00:45.67,0:00:51.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Two great questions. I think the first\Nis, I think it's clear, globalization has
Dialogue: 0,0:00:51.29,0:00:55.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,been very beneficial trans-nationally \Nin several ways
Dialogue: 0,0:00:55.40,0:00:59.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,First of all it's been a great facilitator\Nso the increase in global flows,
Dialogue: 0,0:00:59.92,0:01:04.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for example, and the intermodal container\Nhave been absolutely wonderful for
Dialogue: 0,0:01:04.72,0:01:07.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,various kinds of \Nsmuggling and trafficking.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:07.72,0:01:11.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So that's the first way.\NThe second way is that globalization
Dialogue: 0,0:01:11.86,0:01:15.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,hasn't raised all boats, \Nit's actually had winners and losers.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:15.81,0:01:23.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Its disruptive effect I think has actually\Ncaused people to have to go into organized
Dialogue: 0,0:01:23.35,0:01:28.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,crime and criminal activities and operate\Nin illicit markets as coping mechanisms.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:28.61,0:01:33.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(Stewart) Has there been a \Nconnection at all between
Dialogue: 0,0:01:33.47,0:01:37.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the increase in transnational criminal\Nactivity and movements towards
Dialogue: 0,0:01:37.54,0:01:41.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,liberalization of financial flows \Nas well and sort of the
Dialogue: 0,0:01:41.83,0:01:45.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,creation of global capital \Nmarkets and global -------?
Dialogue: 0,0:01:45.05,0:01:49.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yeah, what you saw from the 70's onward\Nwas the deregulation of global franchises.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:49.34,0:01:53.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And we got some new regulation to try to\Ndeal with money laundering, but it's not
Dialogue: 0,0:01:53.49,0:02:00.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,been particularly effective I would argue.\NThat took on further dimension after 9/11
Dialogue: 0,0:02:00.46,0:02:04.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when money laundering and terrorist\Nfinance were conflated even though they
Dialogue: 0,0:02:04.43,0:02:08.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are in fact very different. Terrorists\Nare about raising money and using it for
Dialogue: 0,0:02:08.74,0:02:14.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,nefarious purposes, they generally don't\Nlaunder much money. Whereas for criminals,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:14.46,0:02:19.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's all about the proceeds of crime,\Nturning those proceeds from being
Dialogue: 0,0:02:19.72,0:02:22.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,illegitimate to seeming to be \Nthe product of a legitimate activity.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:22.85,0:02:26.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(Stewart) You mentioned terrorism,\Na lot has been made,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:26.70,0:02:30.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,especially since 9/11, of this supposed\Nnexus that is emerging between
Dialogue: 0,0:02:30.32,0:02:34.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,transnational organized criminal \Nnetworks on the one hand,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:34.12,0:02:38.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and transnational terrorist groups\Nlike Al Qaeda and Hezbolla.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:38.03,0:02:40.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What's the evidence, \Nhow do you see this relationship?
Dialogue: 0,0:02:40.59,0:02:44.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think there's an awful lot of\Nnonsense talked about that relationship.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:44.44,0:02:48.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think the term nexus is politically appealing,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:48.07,0:02:51.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,analytically appalling in this context.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:51.41,0:02:55.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But there is some basis for it and\Nthe basis is that what we've seen is
Dialogue: 0,0:02:55.82,0:03:02.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a variety of violent armed groups, terrorists,\Ninsurgents, warlords, engage in
Dialogue: 0,0:03:02.08,0:03:06.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,criminal activities as a funding mechanism\Nand I think that's the key.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:06.57,0:03:10.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Sometimes when they engage in a criminal\Nactivity, they come into contact with
Dialogue: 0,0:03:10.02,0:03:17.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,criminal organizations. But for the most\Npart, the direct group to group link
Dialogue: 0,0:03:17.26,0:03:23.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is not that important or is just a market\Nactivity or supplier kind of relationship.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:23.07,0:03:28.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There are exceptions. I think particularly\Nin insurgencies where the insurgents
Dialogue: 0,0:03:28.62,0:03:34.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and criminals are collocated, both\Ngeographically, and in a common
Dialogue: 0,0:03:34.18,0:03:37.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,opportunity space, in those circumstances\Nyou tend to get cooperation.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:37.89,0:03:41.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,A good example is kidnapping in Iraq.\NWhere there were groups in it
Dialogue: 0,0:03:41.90,0:03:46.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,just for profit but would sometimes \Nkidnap people to order
Dialogue: 0,0:03:46.23,0:03:53.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from jihadi groups and would sometimes\Nkidnap people on speculation that they
Dialogue: 0,0:03:53.14,0:03:55.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,could then sell them off.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:55.04,0:03:56.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(Stewart) You mean as a fundraiser
Dialogue: 0,0:03:56.77,0:03:58.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, for them it was \Nall about the profit.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:58.66,0:04:02.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,For the jihadi groups,\Nit was both profit and politics.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:02.21,0:04:09.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,When you think about conventional wisdom\Nand international criminals, the idea you
Dialogue: 0,0:04:10.06,0:04:17.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,often have in mind is the mafia, the\Nhierarchical organization,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:17.40,0:04:20.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Pablo Escobars and this \Nsort of previous generation.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:20.29,0:04:23.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(Stewart) When we're talking \Nabout networks, has
Dialogue: 0,0:04:23.52,0:04:27.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the nature of how these operations\Nare organized changed?
Dialogue: 0,0:04:27.60,0:04:34.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think it has. I think we're seeing a lot\Nmore networked organizations which are not
Dialogue: 0,0:04:34.14,0:04:37.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the strict hierarchy. But again, we have\Nto be very careful because there is no
Dialogue: 0,0:04:37.93,0:04:41.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,single model of a criminal organization.\NI think you've got a great variety of
Dialogue: 0,0:04:41.39,0:04:43.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,different kinds of \Norganizational structure.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:43.78,0:04:47.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,One of the things we thought about for\Nmany years was the 'Ndrangheta, the
Dialogue: 0,0:04:47.74,0:04:53.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Calabrian group over in Calabria,\Nbut also operating extensively in Milan,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:53.30,0:04:57.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and with a global presence.\NThe standard view was
Dialogue: 0,0:04:57.14,0:05:01.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that the 'Ndrangheta \Nwas, essentially networked,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:01.39,0:05:03.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and then as a result, a couple years ago,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:03.84,0:05:08.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of a major electronic eavesdropping \Noperation and 300 arrests,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:08.48,0:05:11.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they actually found that is was more\Nhierarchical than they thought.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:11.12,0:05:14.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There was a kind of \Ndirecting group at the top.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:14.31,0:05:16.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(Stewart) So there are still some models-
Dialogue: 0,0:05:16.55,0:05:19.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There are still, and I think there are a\Nlot of hybrids, too,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:19.78,0:05:21.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that we don't fully understand.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:21.83,0:05:24.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I think the problem with a lot\Nof people who study it is
Dialogue: 0,0:05:24.53,0:05:27.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we tend to think sometimes, \Nthis is the model, it's the only one.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:27.78,0:05:31.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the world is really much more\Ndiverse and complex than that.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:31.04,0:05:36.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,A lot of people have pointed to the \Nrelationship between
Dialogue: 0,0:05:36.16,0:05:39.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,transnational criminal networks\Non the one hand, and
Dialogue: 0,0:05:39.31,0:05:41.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,weak and failing states.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:41.78,0:05:45.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm wondering how you see the \Nrelationship between the sovereign,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:45.69,0:05:53.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,territorial state and criminal networks.\NWhat sort of attributes,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:53.94,0:05:56.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if you were going to exploit a state,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:56.53,0:06:00.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,do they look for that and are they even as\Ndependent on states as much as
Dialogue: 0,0:06:00.24,0:06:02.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,conventional wisdom would have?
Dialogue: 0,0:06:02.62,0:06:04.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think they are.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:04.60,0:06:07.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,These are what Jim Rosenau\Nonce called sovereignty-free actors.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:07.63,0:06:11.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I think states are very bad at dealing\Nwith sovereignty-free actors.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:11.43,0:06:16.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,States are geared up, they're organized,\Nboth their diplomatic and military
Dialogue: 0,0:06:16.38,0:06:19.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,capabilities are organized \Nto deal with other states.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:19.06,0:06:24.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I think they found it very hard to \Nadapt to non-states,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:24.14,0:06:27.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or sovereignty-free actors.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:27.03,0:06:31.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So that's the big problem, and I think\Nyou can see this in many ways.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:31.08,0:06:36.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean, when the US went into Iraq,\Nin the summer of 2003,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:36.24,0:06:40.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there was a UN delegation that actually\Ncame and looked at organized crime.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:40.19,0:06:43.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They did a fabulous 30 page report,\Nsaying this is going to be a huge problem.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:43.77,0:06:48.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,One of the people on that delegation\Nonce told me that when
Dialogue: 0,0:06:48.30,0:06:51.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they tried to brief US military and \Ncivilian leaders in Iraq,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:51.55,0:06:55.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they were met with a mixture of\Nhostility and indifference.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:55.08,0:06:57.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(Stewart) A sort of not my lane?
Dialogue: 0,0:06:57.64,0:07:02.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This is not my lane and yet, it \Ncontributed to that enormous
Dialogue: 0,0:07:02.06,0:07:04.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sense of security in the years after 2003,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:04.65,0:07:07.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and then the insurgents jumped on the \Nbandwagon, and realized
Dialogue: 0,0:07:07.52,0:07:09.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this could also be a big moneymaker.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:09.80,0:07:12.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I think this is true, in general, \Nof insurgencies everywhere, now.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:12.83,0:07:15.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We've seen it with Farc, where some people\Nactually think it's actually even
Dialogue: 0,0:07:15.70,0:07:18.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,transforming into just \Na drug trafficking ring.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:18.14,0:07:19.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(Stewart) Exactly
Dialogue: 0,0:07:19.34,0:07:21.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Although I don't buy that completely,\NI think it's much more a hybrid group.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:21.56,0:07:24.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But we see it in Farc, we see it with\Ngroups like the Taliban,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:24.08,0:07:26.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Haqqani network in Afghanistan.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:26.78,0:07:30.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So this is a global phenomenon where\Na lot of political groups are using
Dialogue: 0,0:07:30.32,0:07:32.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,criminal activities as\Na funding mechanism.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:32.80,0:07:34.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(Stewart) Now the Obama administration
Dialogue: 0,0:07:34.71,0:07:37.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But, we didn't deal with \Nthe weak state part of it.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:37.47,0:07:41.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Generally, I think, organized crime\Nloves weak states.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:41.60,0:07:44.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It doesn't want failed states, \Nbut it likes weak states.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:44.84,0:07:48.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(Stewart) Failed states are too complicated \Nfor everybody to deal with.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:48.41,0:07:52.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That's right. But a weak state is \Nwonderful. All states have
Dialogue: 0,0:07:52.35,0:07:54.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,weaknesses, capacity gaps and \Nfunctional holes.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:54.48,0:07:58.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Criminals can exploit those, and \Nsometimes they become a surrogate
Dialogue: 0,0:07:58.34,0:08:02.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for the state. This is why I think many \Norganized crime groups and certain
Dialogue: 0,0:08:02.23,0:08:05.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,insurgencies provide alternative \Nforms of government.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:05.39,0:08:08.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The Pentagon's had this notion \Nof ungoverned spaces.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:08.51,0:08:12.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I can think of very few\Nungoverned spaces.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:12.13,0:08:14.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There are a lot of spaces that are \Nalternatively governed
Dialogue: 0,0:08:14.32,0:08:15.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,by someone we don't like.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:15.64,0:08:18.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(Stewart) Right, alternatively governed,\Nnot ungoverned.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:18.81,0:08:21.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Final question relates to what can be\Ndone at the multilateral level.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:21.44,0:08:24.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I know the Obama administration came out\Nwith a national strategy for confronting
Dialogue: 0,0:08:24.96,0:08:28.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,transnational organized crime. The US\Nseems to come up with one about every
Dialogue: 0,0:08:28.36,0:08:34.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,10 years or so. And the European security\Nstrategy of earlier, not quite a decade
Dialogue: 0,0:08:34.64,0:08:37.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,ago, talked about organized crime \Nas one of the biggest threats
Dialogue: 0,0:08:37.90,0:08:42.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but at the international level,\Nwhat are the major failings or weakness
Dialogue: 0,0:08:42.42,0:08:45.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the UN system or organizations \Nthat you'd like to see filled?
Dialogue: 0,0:08:45.38,0:08:48.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, I think generally, \Nmulti-lateralism is problematic.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:48.59,0:08:52.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think you've got to do it, \Nbut I think we tend to see
Dialogue: 0,0:08:52.88,0:08:55.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,lowest common denominator solutions,\Nwe see buck passing,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:55.05,0:08:58.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we see kind of dilution of policies \N
Dialogue: 0,0:08:58.44,0:09:00.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because you've got to try to bring everybody
Dialogue: 0,0:09:00.65,0:09:02.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on board through consensus.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:02.98,0:09:05.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I think there are inherent \Nweaknesses in multi-lateralism.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:05.84,0:09:08.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I also think both states,\Nand the community of states
Dialogue: 0,0:09:08.01,0:09:13.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are still bureaucratic, hierarchical, \Nslow to operate, slow to respond
Dialogue: 0,0:09:13.18,0:09:19.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to groups that are very agile,\Nvery networked, very flexible
Dialogue: 0,0:09:19.14,0:09:23.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and able to respond very quickly both\Nto opportunities and to dangers.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:23.29,0:09:27.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(Stewart) Well, Phil Williams, \Nthank you so much for joining us
Dialogue: 0,0:09:27.06,0:09:30.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on this installment of the internationals.\NIf you'd like to join the conversation,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:30.84,0:09:36.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,please join us on my blog,\NThe Internationalist, at cfr.org