0:00:01.440,0:00:06.903 Meezan - The political Shari'ah:[br][Appendix 16/18] 0:00:06.903,0:00:17.903 Question and Answer Session,[br]Javed Ahmed Ghamidi 0:00:23.143,0:00:26.172 [Hassan Ilyas] Bismillahir[br]Rahmanir Rahim 0:00:26.172,0:00:30.755 We are studying Meezan,[br]Janab Javed Sahab, 0:00:30.755,0:00:34.205 the way you have understood [br]Deen and stated it in this book, 0:00:34.205,0:00:36.572 and in the various [br]chapters of this book, 0:00:36.572,0:00:41.293 you expressed the opinions you [br]have about the religion of Islam. 0:00:41.293,0:00:43.803 We have gone through [br]the Law related to Politics, 0:00:43.803,0:00:46.788 and that has ended,[br]where you have stated that 0:00:46.788,0:00:50.503 the individual has [br]been given freedom of will and choice. 0:00:50.503,0:00:54.854 And this freedom and choice [br]compels him to be a part of a society. 0:00:54.854,0:00:56.735 While being a part of a society, 0:00:56.735,0:00:59.793 and so that its wrong use may [br]not lead him to a wrongful place, 0:00:59.793,0:01:02.786 for this Deen has provided[br]him with some directives. 0:01:02.786,0:01:07.202 Individuals form a society, [br]which in turn gives birth to a State. 0:01:07.202,0:01:10.150 What are the responsibilities, [br]obligations and the rights, 0:01:10.150,0:01:13.195 and how this system comes into[br]existence, you explained all this 0:01:13.195,0:01:16.107 in a detailed discussion and [br]elaborated upon your viewpoint. 0:01:16.107,0:01:19.652 There are some questions[br]that I wish to put to you, 0:01:19.652,0:01:21.517 so that it gets[br]clarified further. 0:01:21.517,0:01:25.767 The first question is that the[br]Guidance which the Quran provides to us, 0:01:25.767,0:01:28.800 it is the same Guidance that [br]Allah (swt) had been giving 0:01:28.800,0:01:30.563 right from the start of the world, 0:01:30.563,0:01:32.806 throughout the periods[br]of different Prophets, 0:01:32.806,0:01:33.816 and till today. 0:01:33.816,0:01:36.446 So the Guidance that the Quran[br]gives regarding politics, 0:01:36.446,0:01:39.898 so were those found in [br]the earlier revealed scriptures as well? 0:01:39.898,0:01:43.849 [Javed Ahmed Ghamidi] The history [br]of the revealed religions that we have, 0:01:43.849,0:01:46.298 when we study it, [br]we come to know that 0:01:46.298,0:01:49.949 one pertains to the fundamental points,[br]for example Tawheed, 0:01:49.949,0:01:51.970 the concept of[br]Messengerhood, 0:01:51.970,0:01:55.181 the belief in afterlife, these [br]are the fundamental points. 0:01:55.181,0:01:57.764 These have remained[br]the same forever. 0:01:57.764,0:02:00.464 All the Prophets have[br]presented these teachings. 0:02:00.464,0:02:04.490 However, the directives of the Shari'ah[br]are given as per change in civilization. 0:02:04.490,0:02:06.567 It is different in[br]case of tribal culture, 0:02:06.567,0:02:08.617 it will be different[br]for a feudal setup. 0:02:08.617,0:02:11.236 When the beginning of humanity [br]occurred in this world, 0:02:11.236,0:02:13.366 it was with a single [br]Adam and Eve, 0:02:13.366,0:02:15.122 and they had their children, 0:02:15.122,0:02:17.502 so the directives would [br]be given accordingly. 0:02:17.502,0:02:21.697 I have explained this point several [br]times that these directives 0:02:21.697,0:02:23.705 are as per our [br]circumstances even now. 0:02:23.705,0:02:26.869 i.e. when I am an individual,[br]then only those directives of Deen 0:02:26.869,0:02:29.795 would apply to me which [br]are given in individual capacity.[br] 0:02:29.795,0:02:32.241 When I assume the position [br]of the head of a family, 0:02:32.241,0:02:35.067 so the directives for the head[br]would get related to me too. 0:02:35.067,0:02:38.544 Similarly, if a society wasn't [br]able to turn into a State, 0:02:38.544,0:02:41.527 then the directives for [br]the State would not figure in. 0:02:41.527,0:02:44.711 The Quran has been[br]revealed in an age, 0:02:44.711,0:02:48.245 where human beings were[br]giving shape to their civilizations, 0:02:48.245,0:02:50.591 This is the era of empires. 0:02:50.591,0:02:54.292 When the Quran was revealed [br]and the Prophet (pbuh) was appointed, 0:02:54.292,0:02:57.760 the Roman and the [br]Sassanid Empires were existing. 0:02:57.760,0:03:00.842 During this era of empires, [br]many of the things 0:03:00.842,0:03:03.054 assumed the form[br]of an organization. 0:03:03.054,0:03:04.618 When we were [br]given the Shariah, 0:03:04.618,0:03:07.528 obviously, the conditions[br]prevailing were considered as well. 0:03:07.528,0:03:10.625 The points stated in [br]the Quran relating to politics, 0:03:10.625,0:03:14.028 some are of the type which had [br]been there since ages, 0:03:14.028,0:03:16.068 for example, if you[br]get the Government, 0:03:16.068,0:03:18.644 then you will have to be[br]just under all circumstances, 0:03:18.644,0:03:21.713 this point is stated by the Quran [br]in reference to Hazrat Dawood. 0:03:21.713,0:03:24.973 i.e. When We gave David the [br]authority over the land, 0:03:24.973,0:03:29.260 We gave him this command[br]to be just with the people. 0:03:29.260,0:03:31.189 So some of the things[br]are of this nature, 0:03:31.189,0:03:33.045 and those would[br]have been there forever. 0:03:33.045,0:03:36.932 However, there can be a few things [br]which due to the change in civilization, 0:03:36.932,0:03:39.623 would have come into [br]the discussion just at that time. 0:03:39.623,0:03:42.420 Hence, Allah (swt) has[br]Himself stated that 0:03:42.420,0:03:44.688 Shariah changes according[br]to the circumstances. 0:03:44.688,0:03:47.100 [Hassan] Ghamidi Sahab, with[br]regard to political laws, 0:03:47.100,0:03:49.342 you also told us that in [br]the Islamic religion 0:03:49.342,0:03:52.102 there are some directives [br]related to the State. 0:03:52.102,0:03:54.720 When the State would exist, [br]those would be implemented, 0:03:54.720,0:03:56.906 the State would require[br]its implementation. 0:03:56.906,0:04:00.134 So were these directives [br]given in the capacity 0:04:00.134,0:04:03.121 of a State or in [br]the capacity of an individual 0:04:03.121,0:04:04.683 who form a part [br]of the State? 0:04:04.683,0:04:07.234 i.e. does the religion[br]of Islam give the directives 0:04:07.234,0:04:08.686 to society or to the individual? 0:04:08.686,0:04:09.994 When an individual[br]reaches that office, 0:04:09.994,0:04:12.576 then those directives start[br]applying, what do you say? 0:04:12.576,0:04:15.638 [Ghamidi] The addressee of Deen[br]in essence, is the individual. 0:04:15.638,0:04:18.464 i.e. if am a Muslim [br]or if I adopt disbelief, 0:04:18.464,0:04:19.921 I have been said, 0:04:19.921,0:04:23.529 "Man Sha a Fal Yuu'min[br]Man Sha a Fal Yakfur" 0:04:23.529,0:04:25.245 I have different capacities, 0:04:25.245,0:04:26.748 I have said earlier that 0:04:26.748,0:04:30.437 sitting in a forest I may[br]have the status of an individual, 0:04:30.437,0:04:35.480 and when I decide to marry a woman, [br]then the basis of a family is laid down. 0:04:35.480,0:04:39.295 When I marry a woman, [br]the foundation of a family is laid, 0:04:39.295,0:04:42.946 when the progeny is born, [br]the parental relations develop. 0:04:42.946,0:04:48.455 The directives of Deen relate [br]to my different capacities. 0:04:48.455,0:04:52.011 In the same way, the Muslims[br]existing in large numbers 0:04:52.011,0:04:57.594 forming a big group, so directives[br]related to social life 0:04:57.594,0:04:59.710 will be applicable to them. 0:04:59.710,0:05:02.990 When they form a regular [br]and organized society, 0:05:02.990,0:05:05.043 and lay the [br]basis of a State, 0:05:05.043,0:05:07.926 then directives [br]related to it figure in. 0:05:07.926,0:05:11.291 It does not address [br]the State, or the society, 0:05:11.291,0:05:16.257 it addresses the Muslims[br]in their different capacities. 0:05:16.257,0:05:18.239 i.e. he is in the role of [br]an individual 0:05:18.239,0:05:20.796 or in the role of [br]the head of the family, 0:05:20.796,0:05:24.425 or he occupies a spot in [br]the market and does business, 0:05:24.425,0:05:29.884 or he has assumed the role[br]of an authority of a political system. 0:05:29.884,0:05:31.749 [Hassan] Ghamidi Sahab, [br]your statement that 0:05:31.749,0:05:35.764 the Deen addresses in [br]the capacity of an individual, 0:05:35.764,0:05:40.818 a collection of individuals following[br]Islam wrote a constitution, 0:05:40.818,0:05:43.992 and expressed the point[br]in that constitution that 0:05:43.992,0:05:49.007 we in our individual capacities, [br]accept the Guidance of that Allah, 0:05:49.007,0:05:54.026 hence, for us, in our [br]collective politics, 0:05:54.026,0:05:58.406 in our State or in our law, [br]the Sovereignty will belong to God. 0:05:58.406,0:06:01.956 The concept of Sovereignty, [br]that which you have mentioned, 0:06:01.956,0:06:05.399 and decided that Sovereignty[br]will belong to God. 0:06:05.399,0:06:08.409 He has the highest authority, and [br]He is running the show, 0:06:08.409,0:06:10.547 and He has bestowed[br]this to us in this world, 0:06:10.547,0:06:12.298 and as long as it[br]remains with us, 0:06:12.298,0:06:13.440 we shall make use of it. 0:06:13.440,0:06:15.643 Then this debate turns [br]into a natural debate. 0:06:15.643,0:06:18.147 [Ghamidi] Why has the need[br]arisen to write it down? 0:06:18.147,0:06:20.199 i.e. if there is[br]a Muslim Society 0:06:20.199,0:06:23.969 and the people in the Muslim[br]society have awareness of Islam, 0:06:23.969,0:06:26.036 and they are seated[br]in the Parliament, 0:06:26.036,0:06:27.769 and they have [br]to legislate some law, 0:06:27.769,0:06:30.270 some principle, so[br]my question is that 0:06:30.270,0:06:33.669 whether they accept [br]the Sovereignty of God over themselves? 0:06:33.669,0:06:38.027 If they accept then it will [br]appear in their legislation process too. 0:06:38.027,0:06:41.787 And if they do not accept [br]it, then how will it appear? 0:06:41.787,0:06:43.435 i.e. what is its need? 0:06:43.435,0:06:46.268 It is something which[br]I am saying 0:06:46.268,0:06:48.451 or some people are saying 0:06:48.451,0:06:51.368 and making our future [br]generations bound to it. 0:06:51.368,0:06:54.219 Who has given [br]this right to them? 0:06:54.219,0:07:00.127 Though their work is to ascertain [br]the principles they would follow today? 0:07:00.127,0:07:05.379 For the future to come, people [br]would ascertain as per their wish. 0:07:05.379,0:07:08.131 According to me, it is against the[br]democratic principle 0:07:08.131,0:07:10.432 that we fix the [br]nature of any State. 0:07:10.432,0:07:14.050 The democracy demands[br]and this is what Islam wants, 0:07:14.050,0:07:17.383 that this freedom [br]of the people is maintained. 0:07:17.383,0:07:21.099 If they make a certain decision today,[br]they may as well change that in future. 0:07:21.099,0:07:23.817 [Hassan] So there isn't the need [br]to include this clause 0:07:23.817,0:07:26.782 in the constitution that [br]the Parliament cannot 0:07:26.782,0:07:29.504 make any legislation against [br]the Quran and the Sunnah. 0:07:29.504,0:07:31.700 [Ghamidi] I consider all[br]these as irrelevant, 0:07:31.700,0:07:34.948 and I think that none[br]of these things were required. 0:07:34.948,0:07:38.280 What we should have done, [br]i.e. when Pakistan had been created, 0:07:38.280,0:07:39.748 we should have decided 0:07:39.748,0:07:42.097 whether a family would [br]would rule it? 0:07:42.097,0:07:44.796 Or an individual [br]or group would rule it? 0:07:44.796,0:07:48.299 Or the people[br]would rule it? 0:07:48.299,0:07:50.602 So when we decide that[br]the people would rule it, 0:07:50.602,0:07:53.715 this implies that this system[br]would be run in a democratic manner. 0:07:53.715,0:07:55.341 This is what Islam demands too. 0:07:55.341,0:07:57.952 So when it is ascertained [br]that the system would be run 0:07:57.952,0:07:59.103 in a democratic manner, 0:07:59.103,0:08:02.465 so legislations are to be [br]done in the Parliament. 0:08:02.465,0:08:04.940 Who are the people who are[br]present in the Parliament 0:08:04.940,0:08:07.160 at the time of the[br]legislation being enacted? 0:08:07.160,0:08:10.921 What is their religious awareness? [br]How much do they understand God? 0:08:10.921,0:08:13.644 What is the level of their knowledge, 0:08:13.644,0:08:16.210 and what is their [br]understanding of the Quran? 0:08:16.210,0:08:19.896 Or what is their stand[br]about such things? 0:08:19.896,0:08:22.723 This could be fixed, scholars [br]are present even today, 0:08:22.723,0:08:24.991 the scholars would[br]be present in the future too. 0:08:24.991,0:08:28.152 They would carry on with the work [br]of guidance and advice as well. 0:08:28.152,0:08:30.791 All these things would [br]be taken into consideration 0:08:30.791,0:08:33.009 by people who would [br]make legislation, 0:08:33.009,0:08:34.165 and have been doing it. 0:08:34.165,0:08:37.709 So for this, I think there isn't any [br]need to put a precondition, 0:08:37.709,0:08:39.757 and in spite of this pre-condition, 0:08:39.757,0:08:43.523 if you look, it still remains confined[br]to the pages of the Constitution. 0:08:43.523,0:08:45.308 What, in essence, was the point? 0:08:45.308,0:08:48.674 In essence, if you see, [br]the people who have religious awareness, 0:08:48.674,0:08:51.258 they should have [br]continuously presented 0:08:51.258,0:08:54.577 such Bills in the Parliament, 0:08:54.577,0:08:57.906 where all the laws should[br]have been discussed, 0:08:57.906,0:09:00.023 which in some way[br]or the other, 0:09:00.023,0:09:02.838 had an influence of Islam[br]or the Islamic Shari'ah. 0:09:02.838,0:09:04.755 This work should [br]have been done. 0:09:04.755,0:09:07.823 What use was of[br]writing it or to what end? 0:09:07.823,0:09:09.936 I think this has just [br]resulted in 0:09:09.936,0:09:13.805 an endless debate that continues[br]on what Pakistan is 0:09:13.805,0:09:15.689 or what it should be? 0:09:15.689,0:09:18.386 Pakistan should have [br]been a democratic State, 0:09:18.386,0:09:19.924 its founder had[br]wished the same. 0:09:19.924,0:09:22.601 The Muslims form the majority[br]in this democratic State, 0:09:22.601,0:09:24.190 they have a huge population, 0:09:24.190,0:09:29.261 and the awareness Muslims have,[br]would reflect in their decisions, 0:09:29.261,0:09:31.954 exactly in the way, the awareness [br]that I have of Islam, 0:09:31.954,0:09:34.488 the same reflects [br]in my personal life. 0:09:34.488,0:09:38.420 This is the matter with any nation [br]or with the leaders of any nation. 0:09:38.420,0:09:41.636 [Hassan] Ghamidi Sahab, the points [br]that you have explained 0:09:41.636,0:09:44.616 under the head [br]of responsibilities were 0:09:44.616,0:09:47.219 that the real objective of[br]the social system 0:09:47.219,0:09:49.385 should be that[br]it establishes justice, 0:09:49.385,0:09:53.501 and there is equitable distribution [br]of resources among people. 0:09:53.501,0:09:57.084 Based upon it, the demands it may[br]make to its citizens is that of Zakah, 0:09:57.084,0:09:59.951 and if the citizens living[br]there as Muslims 0:09:59.951,0:10:03.386 will have offer Salah necessarily. 0:10:03.386,0:10:05.384 The State does not [br]establishes Justice, 0:10:05.384,0:10:08.751 what right then the State has to [br]demand Zakah from the people? 0:10:08.751,0:10:12.551 [Ghamidi] The point is who all [br]constitute the State? 0:10:12.551,0:10:14.151 They are the leaders or authorities. 0:10:14.151,0:10:17.592 If they are not just, [br]and do not establish justice, 0:10:17.592,0:10:19.881 people have the right[br]to criticize them 0:10:19.881,0:10:23.213 and in a democratic State, they [br]have the right to vote for a change. 0:10:23.213,0:10:26.582 However, in the pretext of one,[br]the other cannot be suspended. 0:10:26.582,0:10:30.370 i.e. for example, if bribe [br]is being given at one point, 0:10:30.370,0:10:33.865 then would the remaining law[br]and order would stop working. 0:10:33.865,0:10:38.748 i.e. when the police is adopting [br]the right attitude, it will be followed. 0:10:38.748,0:10:41.915 Where the mistake is being [br]done, that would be rectified. 0:10:41.915,0:10:44.513 I could never[br]understand the logic of seeing 0:10:44.513,0:10:48.064 the directives of the[br]State in a single perspective. 0:10:48.064,0:10:52.413 When the authorities among [br]Muslims will establish a system, 0:10:52.413,0:10:56.079 every directive will be seen[br]in the individual perspective. 0:10:56.079,0:11:00.229 If the State has committed[br]some wrong, we will refute it, 0:11:00.229,0:11:02.747 we will condemn it, [br]draw attention to it. 0:11:02.747,0:11:06.895 We shall criticize it, will mold[br]public opinion against it, 0:11:06.895,0:11:08.479 people would be warned, 0:11:08.479,0:11:11.892 and if the State does some [br]good work we shall praise it, 0:11:11.892,0:11:13.495 this should be the way. 0:11:13.495,0:11:15.516 If the State is not[br]able to deliver justice 0:11:15.516,0:11:17.607 then it will be told [br]to deliver justice. 0:11:17.607,0:11:21.728 And if it demands Zakah, it is[br]justified, the Zakah would be paid. 0:11:21.728,0:11:25.460 If it misuses Zakah, then [br]that too would be criticized. 0:11:25.460,0:11:29.344 How can we develop anarchy[br]with regard to our State? 0:11:29.344,0:11:31.932 Do we do the same [br]in the remaining matters? 0:11:31.932,0:11:34.681 i.e. does it happen that [br]when we go out in the street, 0:11:34.681,0:11:37.189 we say since the [br]State is not establishing justice, 0:11:37.189,0:11:40.338 therefore I have the right [br]to switch over to the Right Hand Drive. 0:11:40.338,0:11:42.439 That I won't be stopping [br]at the red signal. 0:11:42.439,0:11:45.191 Now I won't follow the [br]Traffic Constable's Instructions. 0:11:45.191,0:11:46.311 Do we ever do this? 0:11:46.311,0:11:49.324 From now onwards I won't be[br]keeping the Passport in my pocket. 0:11:49.324,0:11:51.725 Or I would travel without[br]obtaining a Visa. 0:11:51.725,0:11:54.829 You follow the rules [br]which you hold right, 0:11:54.829,0:11:58.325 and accept them[br]as the right of the State. 0:11:58.325,0:12:02.257 This is the thing that when an [br]Authoritarian Rule was established, 0:12:02.257,0:12:05.773 our 'Fuqaha' (Experts of Jurisprudence)[br]have stated it in this way, 0:12:05.773,0:12:07.509 though they are [br]Autocratic Rulers, 0:12:07.509,0:12:09.910 there can be a dozen objections[br]made in their Rule, 0:12:09.910,0:12:12.073 even though their [br]Government is illegitimate, 0:12:12.073,0:12:15.637 however, their directives,[br]i.e. when they make a decision, 0:12:15.637,0:12:19.468 that will be implemented.[br]If they call us for Hajj, 0:12:19.468,0:12:23.349 we shall comply with them.[br]If they call for Jihad, 0:12:23.349,0:12:25.420 and if we do not [br]have any objection to it, 0:12:25.420,0:12:28.005 then the Jihad would be done.[br]Why this was done? 0:12:28.005,0:12:30.837 The reason is that Anarchy [br]cannot be allowed to persist. 0:12:30.837,0:12:33.588 So we did this with regard[br]to Autocratic Rulers. 0:12:33.588,0:12:35.704 Now we have [br]democratic Governments, 0:12:35.704,0:12:38.529 and if some government [br]is unable to establish justice, 0:12:38.529,0:12:41.390 then after 5 years, it has to be[br]answerable to the people, 0:12:41.390,0:12:44.013 and if the people would feel that [br]it had erred in such and such matter, 0:12:44.013,0:12:46.599 then you go to the people, [br]cultivate their minds, 0:12:46.599,0:12:48.385 they would bring [br]in a new Government. 0:12:48.385,0:12:51.840 [Hassan] Ghamidi Sahab, this point [br]gives rise to another two questions, 0:12:51.840,0:12:54.162 the first question is [br]as you have said that 0:12:54.162,0:12:56.178 the State can demand[br]just two things, 0:12:56.178,0:13:00.436 To pay Zakah to the State, a state from [br]which a Muslim demands his rights, 0:13:00.436,0:13:04.221 and this can be demonstrated to the[br]State by his offering of the Salah. 0:13:04.221,0:13:06.324 What is the extent of[br]the state legislation? 0:13:06.324,0:13:08.452 i.e. once the [br]Parliament is formed, 0:13:08.452,0:13:11.911 and it will make laws [br]with regard to the people, 0:13:11.911,0:13:15.704 so what is its limit in the [br]sphere of forming legislations? 0:13:15.704,0:13:17.958 i.e. the things that[br]are permissible in Deen 0:13:17.958,0:13:20.861 or things that have been[br]left at the discretion of the people, 0:13:20.861,0:13:24.499 does the State possess this right, [br]and if it has, what is the basis of it? 0:13:24.499,0:13:27.425 What is the reasoning behind it, [br]as it was said earlier that 0:13:27.425,0:13:28.828 only two demands can be made. 0:13:28.828,0:13:31.392 And now, constraints are[br]put on permissible things too. 0:13:31.392,0:13:32.747 A restriction can be made, 0:13:32.747,0:13:34.409 something which is [br]permissible for the people, 0:13:34.409,0:13:36.359 can they be stopped[br]from it by the State? 0:13:36.359,0:13:38.459 [Ghamidi] These are [br]positive demands. 0:13:38.459,0:13:41.892 i.e. for example, a question[br]is whether my authorities can 0:13:41.892,0:13:46.840 direct me to have [br]a glass of 'Rooh Afza' drink daily? 0:13:46.840,0:13:50.175 This is a positive demand.[br]This cannot be done. 0:13:50.175,0:13:52.420 For this, some reasoning is required. 0:13:52.420,0:13:54.456 i.e. we have to arrange [br]the Salah, 0:13:54.456,0:13:55.648 we have to pay Zakah. 0:13:55.648,0:13:57.707 My wealth is being[br]demanded from me, 0:13:57.707,0:14:01.121 for this, a reason is required. [br]To stop from 'Munkaraat', 0:14:01.121,0:14:05.522 by 'Munkaraat' we mean[br]the things which go beyond the sins 0:14:05.522,0:14:07.672 and assume [br]the form of a crime. 0:14:07.672,0:14:11.054 This is the right of the State.[br]This is its limit. 0:14:11.054,0:14:15.022 Religion has also fixed this [br]and it is agreed over in the world too. 0:14:15.022,0:14:18.902 Humanity has accepted[br]the point at the global level 0:14:18.902,0:14:21.903 that the State would protect [br]an individual 0:14:21.903,0:14:24.472 from the harms to others' life,[br]property and honor. 0:14:24.472,0:14:27.451 The State would prevent[br]the infringement of rights. 0:14:27.451,0:14:30.708 The State can interfere[br]in matters where, 0:14:30.708,0:14:35.205 due to some act of mine,[br]I become the cause of some loss. 0:14:35.205,0:14:38.741 I am liable for any loss. 0:14:38.741,0:14:40.922 The legislation is done[br]to defend from harms. 0:14:40.922,0:14:46.323 No State can go beyond this.[br]So it must tell beforehand 0:14:46.323,0:14:50.097 what is the aim of [br]this restriction being done? 0:14:50.097,0:14:52.151 You see, there[br]are a lot many things, 0:14:52.151,0:14:55.016 which were totally permitted.[br]The smoking of tobacco, 0:14:55.016,0:14:58.484 is not a prohibition [br]of the Shari'ah. 0:14:58.484,0:15:01.332 Many of our esteemed elders [br]and men of piety 0:15:01.332,0:15:03.749 had been regular [br]users of Hookah. 0:15:03.749,0:15:05.301 They smoked tobacco. 0:15:05.301,0:15:12.287 Tobacco and its use[br]is quite injurious to health, 0:15:12.287,0:15:17.217 is a different matter, and it has [br]moral turpitude in it is another thing. 0:15:17.217,0:15:20.518 Since religion [br]encompasses morality, 0:15:20.518,0:15:24.234 so it cannot be said that[br]the religion had banned it. 0:15:24.234,0:15:27.603 But now we declare it prohibited. 0:15:27.603,0:15:30.832 What is its reason?[br]The reason is the injury it causes. 0:15:30.832,0:15:33.816 It harms others as well. 0:15:33.816,0:15:37.509 And this is the basis on which[br]legislation is done in the parliament. 0:15:37.509,0:15:39.637 A legislation cannot be made on[br]positive grounds. 0:15:39.637,0:15:43.455 You cannot be directed to[br]wear a shirt of a particular type. 0:15:43.455,0:15:45.503 Or your spectacles [br]should be of this type. 0:15:45.503,0:15:48.916 Or you would wear such a cap.[br]This cannot happen. 0:15:48.916,0:15:53.082 For all positive laws,[br]you need to have a reason. 0:15:53.082,0:15:56.149 And that directive can[br]only be from God. 0:15:56.149,0:15:59.100 There needs to [br]be a reason for it. 0:15:59.100,0:16:01.584 For negative things, [br]you have the right. 0:16:01.584,0:16:04.369 In the times of[br]the Prophet (pbuh), 0:16:04.369,0:16:08.216 was the Left Hand Drive on the [br]roads prohibited the world over? 0:16:08.216,0:16:09.343 You have imposed it. 0:16:09.343,0:16:11.264 i.e. we have to have a right-hand[br]drive 0:16:11.264,0:16:13.409 and the left-hand [br]drive is forbidden. 0:16:13.409,0:16:16.682 In a similar situation, for example,[br]a debate happened among us, 0:16:16.682,0:16:20.742 whether we can[br]ban polygamy? 0:16:20.742,0:16:23.816 i.e. can we put the condition[br]that wife's assent is a must. 0:16:23.816,0:16:26.182 Or a Court's permission[br]is obligatory. 0:16:26.182,0:16:32.129 So you have to tell the reason [br]why you are applying such a restriction? 0:16:32.129,0:16:34.865 Is there any harm done by it [br]that is meant to be stopped? 0:16:34.865,0:16:37.115 There may be many things[br]which are harmful 0:16:37.115,0:16:39.044 for one society but [br]not for the other. 0:16:39.044,0:16:41.638 It might be harmful in one[br]region but not in the other. 0:16:41.638,0:16:43.467 Hence, I consider[br]this restriction as just, 0:16:43.467,0:16:45.266 these restrictions are[br]imposed by human beings, 0:16:45.266,0:16:47.578 and they would elaborate[br]on the reason for it. 0:16:47.578,0:16:49.846 When experience will tell that[br]it is wrongly done, 0:16:49.846,0:16:51.184 then it would be remedied. 0:16:51.184,0:16:53.350 When Shari'ah has put some [br]restrictions then 0:16:53.350,0:16:54.963 that cannot be overruled. 0:16:54.963,0:16:58.046 For example, earlier too,[br]polygamy had been in practice. 0:16:58.046,0:17:00.596 So our Shari'ah imposed [br]two restrictions on it. 0:17:00.596,0:17:03.745 One was, it was stated that if [br]you cannot be just then 0:17:03.745,0:17:06.014 you cannot have[br]more than one wife. 0:17:06.014,0:17:09.966 The second is, if there [br]is an exceptional need, 0:17:09.966,0:17:12.423 like it was appealed [br]in the case of orphans, 0:17:12.423,0:17:14.822 then in such a case too, [br]not more than four. 0:17:14.822,0:17:16.581 These two restrictions[br]were made. 0:17:16.581,0:17:20.703 Now you and I cannot infringe [br]upon these two restrictions till Qiyamah. 0:17:20.703,0:17:23.533 However, can any other [br]restriction be imposed as well. 0:17:23.533,0:17:25.007 It can surely be imposed. 0:17:25.007,0:17:28.790 If you tell the reason for[br]the imposition of such a restriction. 0:17:28.790,0:17:31.618 If there is a detriment [br]or some harm anticipated, 0:17:31.618,0:17:34.259 a debate would ensue, [br]your point may be correct, 0:17:34.259,0:17:35.662 or it might [br]be wrong as well. 0:17:35.662,0:17:39.621 A similar debate also cropped up [br]when it was decided among us that 0:17:39.621,0:17:42.220 the age of marriage [br]should be so and so. 0:17:42.220,0:17:44.085 It shouldn't [br]be done before it. 0:17:44.085,0:17:46.801 Here too, the harms[br]are discussed, mostly, 0:17:46.801,0:17:50.335 you see, the Quran says,[br]"Amrahum Shura Bainahum". 0:17:50.335,0:17:53.613 i.e. the government would be [br]formed with the opinion of the people. 0:17:53.613,0:17:55.409 You have to [br]take the opinion. 0:17:55.409,0:17:57.641 What age group [br]would be entitled to vote? 0:17:57.641,0:18:00.293 You have imposed the [br]restriction of 21 or 18 years, 0:18:00.293,0:18:02.117 what is the basis of it? 0:18:02.117,0:18:04.898 Has it been imposed by [br]Allah or the Messenger of Allah? 0:18:04.898,0:18:07.280 The person has [br]turned into an adult. 0:18:07.280,0:18:10.043 One is physical maturity [br]and one is mental maturity. 0:18:10.043,0:18:12.860 For example, it was [br]stated about the orphans 0:18:12.860,0:18:15.752 that when they become adults,[br]and they develop maturity, 0:18:15.752,0:18:18.386 then only hand over[br]their belongings to them. 0:18:18.386,0:18:21.544 If this can be done with regard[br]to handing over someone's possessions, 0:18:21.544,0:18:23.080 then why it cannot be done 0:18:23.080,0:18:25.440 while considering the[br]marriage of a boy or a girl? 0:18:25.440,0:18:27.653 We will advise it [br]for general circumstances. 0:18:27.653,0:18:29.886 However, if people [br]make a mistake, 0:18:29.886,0:18:32.267 and there are some[br]harmful effects of it, 0:18:32.267,0:18:35.580 i.e. the point is that some other[br]has to be saved from some harm, 0:18:35.580,0:18:38.234 or infringement of [br]someone's right is to be stopped. 0:18:38.234,0:18:40.895 This is the responsibility [br]of the social system. 0:18:40.895,0:18:43.863 They cannot make me bound [br]to some positive law. 0:18:43.863,0:18:45.428 Due to some deed of mine, 0:18:45.428,0:18:47.578 I have to decide upon[br]the marriage of a boy, 0:18:47.578,0:18:49.646 this is resulting in [br]some harm to him. 0:18:49.646,0:18:53.153 Now, or in the future or [br]for his future generations, 0:18:53.153,0:18:55.512 to save from all this, the[br]laws are being enacted. 0:18:55.512,0:18:59.147 To defend the harm, [br]to save from the loss, 0:18:59.147,0:19:03.105 to protect from oppression, [br]or to save from tyranny, 0:19:03.105,0:19:05.334 legislation is to be done. 0:19:05.334,0:19:08.725 [Hassan] Right, Ghamidi Sahab,[br]during the class you have said, 0:19:08.725,0:19:12.695 "Al Jama'a" and "Sultan" [br]implies the collective system, 0:19:12.695,0:19:16.992 and the Prophet (pbuh) had advised[br]to be attached with them 0:19:16.992,0:19:22.593 under all circumstances, [br]rather, he stated, 0:19:22.593,0:19:24.139 "Maata meetatan Jahiliya" 0:19:24.139,0:19:26.989 'Those who do not follow it, [br]die the death of ignorance'. 0:19:26.989,0:19:28.566 You gave the example of it that 0:19:28.566,0:19:30.733 after all, these are [br]democratic Governments, 0:19:30.733,0:19:33.018 even in case of [br]Authoritarian Rule too, 0:19:33.018,0:19:36.065 our elders have[br]instructed us to follow any such Ruler. 0:19:36.065,0:19:39.491 However, we see, that [br]some people do not accept this. 0:19:39.491,0:19:41.699 For example, in the [br]example of Syedna Hussain, 0:19:41.699,0:19:43.866 or the matter [br]of Abdullah Bin Zubair, 0:19:43.866,0:19:47.798 or the support of Imam Abu Hanifa [br]of 'Nafs Zakiyah' in his Khuruuj. 0:19:47.798,0:19:51.097 So can these people be cited as [br]referents 0:19:51.097,0:19:54.882 for the punishment[br]stated in the Hadees? 0:19:54.882,0:19:57.244 [Ghamidi] A rule has [br]been established, 0:19:57.244,0:19:59.770 has it been established [br]in a rightful manner? 0:19:59.770,0:20:02.623 if a government has been[br]established in a legitimate manner 0:20:02.623,0:20:06.182 then with regard to it,[br]there cannot be a dispute. 0:20:06.182,0:20:10.872 However, if it has gone against[br]the law and imposed itself on us, 0:20:10.872,0:20:14.099 then there can be [br]a struggle against it, 0:20:14.099,0:20:17.054 there would be rules [br]and manners for that struggle. 0:20:17.054,0:20:20.024 There are authoritative[br]rules established in the world. 0:20:20.024,0:20:22.747 As far as their [br]existence is concerned 0:20:22.747,0:20:24.707 those are illegal Governments, 0:20:24.707,0:20:27.754 for example, there [br]is Monarchy in Saudi Arabia. 0:20:27.754,0:20:30.051 In the same way, [br]the Clerical Rule in Iran, 0:20:30.051,0:20:33.595 and in some other places as [br]well, there are such Governments 0:20:33.595,0:20:36.626 where the fundamental right [br]of the people has been seized 0:20:36.626,0:20:39.609 in which they can elect their [br]Governments of their free will. 0:20:39.609,0:20:42.359 So the people [br]would struggle against it. 0:20:42.359,0:20:45.410 This struggle would be within[br]the precincts of the law. 0:20:45.410,0:20:48.744 If at some point in time,[br]it crosses the line of the law, 0:20:48.744,0:20:51.144 then some limits and conditions[br]would exist, 0:20:51.144,0:20:55.388 which I have elaborated in the [br]discussion on 'Khuruuj' in my books. 0:20:55.388,0:20:58.118 However, to get rid [br]of the Authoritative Governments, 0:20:58.118,0:21:01.583 there is no other way except [br]opposition or struggle against them. 0:21:01.583,0:21:03.242 When a way is adopted, 0:21:03.242,0:21:07.167 it will be seen whether they[br]have violated some principle, 0:21:07.167,0:21:09.324 or they have [br]crossed a certain limit. 0:21:09.324,0:21:11.124 This directive is[br]not a religious one. 0:21:11.124,0:21:12.607 i.e. the issue in discussion is 0:21:12.607,0:21:14.869 whether religion tells us to do[br]such a thing. 0:21:14.869,0:21:17.020 No, this is not its topic. 0:21:17.020,0:21:20.875 It will tell you that if some[br]directive is given to you 0:21:20.875,0:21:25.223 is an act of transgression against Allah[br]then you should refuse to follow it. 0:21:25.223,0:21:27.830 i.e. if I am being told [br]that I should not pray, 0:21:27.830,0:21:29.940 then I have only two ways, 0:21:29.940,0:21:33.124 either I will give away my[br]life by violating this order, 0:21:33.124,0:21:35.723 or I will act on 'Rukhsat' [br]which obviously, 0:21:35.723,0:21:38.322 is not a very [br]desired thing in Deen. 0:21:38.322,0:21:42.472 So if I am being ordered something [br]which is against the directives of God, 0:21:42.472,0:21:44.655 then I am bound to violate it. 0:21:44.655,0:21:46.603 The Prophet of Allah has stated, 0:21:46.603,0:21:49.769 "La Taaa't ali Makhluqin[br]Fi Maasiyatil Khaliq" 0:21:49.769,0:21:52.619 however, the Government[br]is violating some law, 0:21:52.619,0:21:55.369 I am not being given [br]a directive for transgression, 0:21:55.369,0:21:59.840 the Authorities are violating [br]some law, then I have to see, 0:21:59.840,0:22:02.886 i.e. if I am trying to bring [br]about a change in that Government, 0:22:02.886,0:22:05.016 then is it some[br]democratic Government. 0:22:05.016,0:22:08.604 If it is a democratic government [br]then no sort of anarchy is required, 0:22:08.604,0:22:12.117 you may approach the people,[br]convince them upon your view, 0:22:12.117,0:22:15.618 if they accept your opinion, [br]the Government would change. 0:22:15.618,0:22:18.853 If it is an Authoritarian Regime,[br]it is an illegal Government. 0:22:18.853,0:22:21.102 There will have to be a[br]struggle against it. 0:22:21.102,0:22:24.029 In this struggle, we have [br]to make sure that people's lives, 0:22:24.029,0:22:25.788 property and honor[br]are not harmed, 0:22:25.788,0:22:28.169 or some big chaos[br]is not created. 0:22:28.169,0:22:31.767 You are not creating an anarchy where [br]issues for the people are created. 0:22:31.767,0:22:33.613 All these things will have to[br]be taken care of. 0:22:33.613,0:22:36.576 Hence there are some conditions [br]as well as some limits of it. 0:22:36.576,0:22:38.866 That can be discussed in [br]detail while discussing 0:22:38.866,0:22:40.854 'Khuruuj' on some occasion. 0:22:40.854,0:22:44.016 [Hassan] Ghamidi Sahab, [br]the responsibility of the State is 0:22:44.016,0:22:47.805 to abide by the [br]agreements it has done. 0:22:47.805,0:22:49.365 The Quran has directed this too. 0:22:49.365,0:22:52.362 An Islamic State, in today's era, 0:22:52.362,0:22:54.965 is bound to a number [br]of international accords, 0:22:54.965,0:22:59.866 if that State is a Member Country [br]of UNO then it is bound by it. 0:22:59.866,0:23:02.499 What are the principles[br]given by the Deen, 0:23:02.499,0:23:05.798 i.e. what would be the level of abiding[br]of these Accords by the State? 0:23:05.798,0:23:08.530 For example, the UN directs [br]some country that 0:23:08.530,0:23:12.238 it can make an offensive [br]on some country 0:23:12.238,0:23:16.867 and all Member countries are [br]bound to support it in this offensive, 0:23:16.867,0:23:20.279 then can the Islamic State decide [br]about any other Islamic State that 0:23:20.279,0:23:23.139 it will help others against it. 0:23:23.139,0:23:26.845 [Ghamidi] This is just hypothetical, [br]i.e. there are various points 0:23:26.845,0:23:29.524 in it which come under [br]discussion in the UN as well. 0:23:29.524,0:23:31.523 However, the point in[br]principle is that 0:23:31.523,0:23:33.633 if there is a certain [br]agreement done by you, 0:23:33.633,0:23:36.796 then you have to[br]follow it in spirit. 0:23:36.796,0:23:40.033 Our Deen has made[br]this binding upon us. 0:23:40.033,0:23:44.901 i.e. basic morality includes the point [br]that agreement would be honored, 0:23:44.901,0:23:48.144 and it has been said that God[br]would make us accountable 0:23:48.144,0:23:51.914 in matters of agreement.[br]Whatever agreement is done, 0:23:51.914,0:23:54.379 has to be abided by[br]under all circumstances. 0:23:54.379,0:23:58.526 If at the time of making[br]the agreement, some mistake is committed, 0:23:58.526,0:24:01.358 then that agreement[br]is to be openly canceled. 0:24:01.358,0:24:06.127 i.e. for example, in the UN [br]something takes place 0:24:06.127,0:24:09.015 which goes against [br]the basic morality, 0:24:09.015,0:24:12.981 which we cannot follow [br]with respect to religion, 0:24:12.981,0:24:16.549 then we would make an open [br]declaration that we are not bound by it. 0:24:16.549,0:24:20.375 If an agreement is done and then[br]it is violated as well, that is not done. 0:24:20.375,0:24:22.939 The specific question that [br]you have put to me, 0:24:22.939,0:24:27.144 my reply to it is what is the point[br]in essence, with regard to a war? 0:24:27.144,0:24:29.635 In essence, it is the[br]taking of other's life, 0:24:29.635,0:24:33.889 it is not a joke, here [br]the first question would be 0:24:33.889,0:24:36.940 whether we are called for[br]a legitimate war with a valid reason? 0:24:36.940,0:24:40.889 You are aware that Allah (swt) [br]has permitted war 0:24:40.889,0:24:42.722 only against tyranny and oppression. 0:24:42.722,0:24:45.538 So the UN would has[br]to validate it, 0:24:45.538,0:24:47.739 so will the US and England too. 0:24:47.739,0:24:51.472 Why USA, England or the UN, [br]my own Government will 0:24:51.472,0:24:56.700 have to satisfy me that [br]the war is a step against tyranny. 0:24:56.700,0:25:02.703 i.e. it is a must, if I am[br]commanded to present myself for war, 0:25:02.703,0:25:06.519 and I am convinced that this [br]measure is an act of aggression, 0:25:06.519,0:25:11.435 is itself tyrannical, and moral values[br]are being compromised for it, 0:25:11.435,0:25:15.004 then I would decline.[br]I will bear its consequences. 0:25:15.004,0:25:20.515 i.e. for me to take a step [br]against someone's life, 0:25:20.515,0:25:24.365 the first and foremost condition[br]is for me to see 0:25:24.365,0:25:27.466 what is the point for[br]which life is being taken? 0:25:27.466,0:25:30.502 Is it justified as [br]per the law of God? 0:25:30.502,0:25:32.908 So I have told you a very[br]clear point that 0:25:32.908,0:25:35.528 war can be waged against[br]tyranny and oppression. 0:25:35.528,0:25:38.876 If some nation creates discord [br]and indulges in tyranny and oppression, 0:25:38.876,0:25:41.560 then if we have the right, if we[br]have power to stop him, 0:25:41.560,0:25:44.139 we should stop him, [br]this is the lone reason for war, 0:25:44.139,0:25:47.104 other than this, war cannot [br]be waged for any other reason. 0:25:47.104,0:25:50.116 [Hassan] i.e. as per the Deen, [br]the State is bound to 0:25:50.116,0:25:54.035 i.e. if a country has [br]waged a war against tyranny 0:25:54.035,0:25:56.349 and oppression[br]of another country, 0:25:56.349,0:25:59.098 and the State is bound to [br]an international Agreement, 0:25:59.098,0:26:01.965 then it is bound by Deen to[br]provide supplies from its place, 0:26:01.965,0:26:03.717 and the passage is to be provided, 0:26:03.717,0:26:06.869 and if it fails to do so 0:26:06.869,0:26:10.154 then it actually is violating[br]the directive of the Deen. 0:26:10.154,0:26:11.602 [Ghamidi] You see the point is 0:26:11.602,0:26:13.834 if the war is being fought [br]against oppression, 0:26:13.834,0:26:16.147 then we have [br]to co-operate for it. 0:26:16.147,0:26:17.648 i.e. it should be done, 0:26:17.648,0:26:22.429 however, if I am bound[br]by some agreement to not co-operate, 0:26:22.429,0:26:24.947 we have the freedom[br]to decide on co-operating, 0:26:24.947,0:26:28.757 or not to co-operate if we wish to. 0:26:28.757,0:26:31.125 Then we shall decide[br]it as per our situation, 0:26:31.125,0:26:35.493 i.e. in the Islamic Shari'ah,[br]it is not that we are bound to wage war 0:26:35.493,0:26:38.764 against tyranny and oppression, [br]no, we have the right to wage war. 0:26:38.764,0:26:41.328 Binding comes as [br]per the circumstances. 0:26:41.328,0:26:44.956 The war becomes obligatory [br]when I have the capability for it. 0:26:44.956,0:26:47.937 Like Hajj becomes obligatory[br]only when we can afford it, 0:26:47.937,0:26:51.021 likewise, the war also becomes[br]obligatory when we can afford it. 0:26:51.021,0:26:54.633 So I have to see, what price I will[br]have to pay for this cooperation? 0:26:54.633,0:26:56.766 However, if I am bound [br]as per the agreement, 0:26:56.766,0:27:01.097 for example, while signing [br]on the charter of the UNO, 0:27:01.097,0:27:05.043 I have accepted this binding, so now [br]wherever the UNO will start a war, 0:27:05.043,0:27:07.809 I will despatch my[br]army, as I am bound. 0:27:07.809,0:27:09.992 I am bound due to[br]the agreement made. 0:27:09.992,0:27:12.358 [Hassan] Ghamidi Sahab, [br]the most important point 0:27:12.358,0:27:15.061 which had been under [br]discussion in the law of politics, 0:27:15.061,0:27:17.688 and you discussed it [br]succinctly, and in detail, 0:27:17.688,0:27:20.981 it was the way in which the system [br]of Government will be established. 0:27:20.981,0:27:23.277 You said that it will be[br]"Amrahum Shura Bainahum" 0:27:23.277,0:27:26.274 the collective Governance would[br]be based on mutual opinions 0:27:26.274,0:27:28.758 and as a consequence of it,[br]you tried to explain that 0:27:28.758,0:27:32.456 the Democratic System was[br]in compliance with Islam, 0:27:32.456,0:27:34.308 and Islam advocates[br]for democracy. 0:27:34.308,0:27:36.839 There are a lot [br]of questions on it. 0:27:36.839,0:27:39.975 In the next session, we [br]will discuss those questions, 0:27:39.975,0:27:44.347 and try to understand your opinion.