[Script Info]
Title: 
[Events]
Format: Layer, Start, End, Style, Name, MarginL, MarginR, MarginV, Effect, Text
Dialogue: 0,0:00:04.68,0:00:11.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}rc3 preroll music{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,0:00:11.94,0:00:18.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: All right, so our next talk is\Ncalled Hacking Diversity, where we
Dialogue: 0,0:00:18.86,0:00:23.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,basically try to treat a really awkward\Nquestion about these spaces that we move
Dialogue: 0,0:00:23.60,0:00:28.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in here, which is that we really have\Nthese ideas about inclusion and diversity.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:28.64,0:00:32.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But in the end, most of the people that\Ncome just look like me. And in open
Dialogue: 0,0:00:32.53,0:00:37.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,source, most people look like me. And this\Nis extremely strange, right? Because we
Dialogue: 0,0:00:37.69,0:00:43.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have all these ideas about diversity and\Neverything. And today we try to answer the
Dialogue: 0,0:00:43.48,0:00:47.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,question of why this happens and maybe\Nwhat we can do about it. Our speaker for
Dialogue: 0,0:00:47.08,0:00:51.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this is Professor Christina Dunbar-Hester.\NShe's a professor at the University of
Dialogue: 0,0:00:51.56,0:00:55.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Southern California, I think. And today\Nshe is preparing, uh, she is showing
Dialogue: 0,0:00:55.90,0:01:00.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,essentially a condensed version of a book\Nthat she just wrote, called Hacking
Dialogue: 0,0:01:00.61,0:01:05.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Diversity. And I'm really looking forward\Nto this talk because I also have asked
Dialogue: 0,0:01:05.48,0:01:08.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,myself these questions and I don't know \Nthe answers.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:08.00,0:01:10.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I'm looking forward to this.\NPlease Christina.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:10.29,0:01:14.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Professor Christina Dunbar-Hester: Thank\Nyou so much. Thank you for the
Dialogue: 0,0:01:14.29,0:01:18.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,introduction and thank you for the\Ninvitation and thank you for all of your
Dialogue: 0,0:01:18.72,0:01:24.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,labor to get this remote experience off\Nthe ground. So I'm really happy and
Dialogue: 0,0:01:24.99,0:01:35.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,excited to be here, whatever that is. And\NI will get into the talk. Let's see here,
Dialogue: 0,0:01:35.99,0:01:45.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OK. Let me know, you should be able to see\Nslides now. If that didn't work, let me
Dialogue: 0,0:01:45.74,0:01:53.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,know. OK, thanks. This is not a best\Npractices talk so much as a first
Dialogue: 0,0:01:53.45,0:01:59.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,principles and how did we get here talk?\NMy examples are mostly from the US, but
Dialogue: 0,0:01:59.77,0:02:10.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they are part of a broader Euro-American\Nmilieu. And so to get started, I think I
Dialogue: 0,0:02:10.45,0:02:19.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,want to put up this quote from the Free\NSoftware Foundation from 2012. And the
Dialogue: 0,0:02:19.33,0:02:25.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,goal of this talk is really to give some\Ncontext. And I think at the almost very
Dialogue: 0,0:02:25.40,0:02:31.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,end of 2020 it's safe to say that this is\Na fairly mainstream and uncontroversial
Dialogue: 0,0:02:31.73,0:02:35.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,topic, but it wasn't always this way. So\Nthe quote says: "The free software
Dialogue: 0,0:02:35.86,0:02:40.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,movement needs diverse participation to\Nachieve its goals. If we want to make
Dialogue: 0,0:02:40.93,0:02:45.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,proprietary software extinct, we need to\Nmake everyone on the planet engage with
Dialogue: 0,0:02:45.85,0:02:52.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,free software. To get there we need people\Nof all genders, races, sexual orientations
Dialogue: 0,0:02:52.09,0:02:58.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and abilities leading the way. And as I\Nsaid, I think this is a very recognizable
Dialogue: 0,0:02:58.80,0:03:03.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sort of discourse now, but it hasn't\Nalways been. And I'm going to sort of
Dialogue: 0,0:03:03.70,0:03:10.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,unpack this for a little while. The\Noutline of the talk, this is a pretty bare
Dialogue: 0,0:03:10.26,0:03:15.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,bones outline, but there's going to be a\Nlot of sort of history and context and
Dialogue: 0,0:03:15.64,0:03:20.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then a little bit about the value and goal\Nof diversity and how it relates to profits
Dialogue: 0,0:03:20.86,0:03:27.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and markets and also the goal of diversity\Nand how it relates to other values,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:27.53,0:03:33.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,particularly justice. And I want to note\Nthat there's a couple of content warning
Dialogue: 0,0:03:33.33,0:03:40.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,slides on here. One, for people who have\Nbeen involved in promulgating genocide and
Dialogue: 0,0:03:40.28,0:03:46.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,another for a person who's been ejected\Nfrom hacking for abusive behavior. And so
Dialogue: 0,0:03:46.09,0:03:54.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there will be a warning preceding each of\Nthose. OK, so first, talking about
Dialogue: 0,0:03:54.55,0:04:03.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,genocide. In the 19th century in the\NUnited States and even into the 20th
Dialogue: 0,0:04:03.33,0:04:12.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,century, there was an idea of a sort of\Nfrontiersmen, brawny man who you can see
Dialogue: 0,0:04:12.58,0:04:16.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,here. This is a folk hero, but was\Nimportant enough to still be being
Dialogue: 0,0:04:16.83,0:04:21.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,represented on television in the 1960s. \NAnd the sort of consistent thing
Dialogue: 0,0:04:21.50,0:04:27.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,here is going to actually go, this is the\Ngenocide one, to these sort of consistent
Dialogue: 0,0:04:27.97,0:04:32.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,representations. You can see these folks\Nare wearing, well, they're men and they're
Dialogue: 0,0:04:32.21,0:04:37.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,being manly and they're wearing animal\Nhide with the implication that they maybe,
Dialogue: 0,0:04:37.49,0:04:43.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you know, shot the deer themself. They\Ncarry a gun, they're in naturalistic
Dialogue: 0,0:04:43.80,0:04:58.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,settings. They're sort of rough and ready\Nfor anything. I'm drawing here on
Dialogue: 0,0:04:58.16,0:05:04.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,historian Susan Douglas, who argues that\Naround the turn of the 20th century,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:04.07,0:05:09.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,society started to change. And so even\Nthough there was still this mythos of this
Dialogue: 0,0:05:09.93,0:05:15.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,brawny frontiersmen, what society actually\Nneeded was a reconfigured masculinity that
Dialogue: 0,0:05:15.33,0:05:23.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,didn't sort of have this rough physical\Nbrawny masculinity. And so masculinity
Dialogue: 0,0:05:23.36,0:05:30.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,itself, she says, was reconfigured to what\Nshe calls technical masculinity. And so
Dialogue: 0,0:05:30.30,0:05:38.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the masculinity was sort of refashioned to\Nbe about mastery over machines and
Dialogue: 0,0:05:38.76,0:05:43.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,particularly these sort of new cutting\Nedge electronic machines, which in this
Dialogue: 0,0:05:43.20,0:05:51.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,case was radio. So radio experimentation\Nin the very early 20th century, first
Dialogue: 0,0:05:51.03,0:05:57.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,wireless telegraphy and then later\Nwireless sound transmission, which became
Dialogue: 0,0:05:57.04,0:06:02.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,broadcasting, she argues, is a way to sort\Nof refit masculinity or the way the
Dialogue: 0,0:06:02.92,0:06:08.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,society was changing. It was more urban.\NThere was more specialized division of
Dialogue: 0,0:06:08.81,0:06:14.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,labor needing people to work in a\Nprofessional white collar fields with
Dialogue: 0,0:06:14.97,0:06:19.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,technology as opposed to going out and\Nsettling the West. And so here we see
Dialogue: 0,0:06:19.94,0:06:26.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,technical, technical masculinity,\Nentrainment basically, a father with his
Dialogue: 0,0:06:26.21,0:06:35.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,very young son teaching him this is a way\Nto be in the world. And Douglas argues
Dialogue: 0,0:06:35.57,0:06:41.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that this started with ham radio in the\Nearly 20th century. But perhaps
Dialogue: 0,0:06:41.11,0:06:46.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,unsurprisingly, it continued to sort of\Npersist over time. And so my next few
Dialogue: 0,0:06:46.77,0:06:52.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,slides are showing the same technical\Nmasculinity, which is about, you know,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:52.20,0:06:59.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,curiosity, solving a problem, you know,\Nexpressing your will with technology only
Dialogue: 0,0:06:59.82,0:07:05.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with different sorts of technical\Nartifacts. And so here this is the Model
Dialogue: 0,0:07:05.59,0:07:11.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Railroad, made very famous in Steven\NLevy's book about hackers. We also have,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:11.94,0:07:16.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and this is probably about the 1950s. \NWe have phone phreaking in the 1960s
Dialogue: 0,0:07:16.51,0:07:22.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and here this is also a 2600 \Nmagazine from the 80s, sort
Dialogue: 0,0:07:22.06,0:07:29.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of continuing to mythologize phone\Nphreaking. Going into the 70s, we
Dialogue: 0,0:07:29.13,0:07:33.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,see this with computers, the Homebrew\NComputer Club, a really important hobbyist
Dialogue: 0,0:07:33.42,0:07:40.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,formation for both, you know, the history\Nof Silicon Valley, but also the history of
Dialogue: 0,0:07:40.92,0:07:44.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,hacking and free software. It was people\Nwho were sort of building and tinkering
Dialogue: 0,0:07:44.15,0:07:49.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and experimenting. And so what we're\Nstarting to see here is even as the tech
Dialogue: 0,0:07:49.83,0:07:56.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,shifts, the technical masculinity stays\Nconsistent. And this is probably the early
Dialogue: 0,0:07:56.29,0:08:03.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,80s and the slide is just an ad for a\Nmicrocomputer. But we can see not only the
Dialogue: 0,0:08:03.80,0:08:09.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,representation of masculinity at the\Ncenter, we also see femininity in relation
Dialogue: 0,0:08:09.84,0:08:16.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to the technology, which is to say it's\Njust the sort of ancillary handmaiden for
Dialogue: 0,0:08:16.85,0:08:24.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the sort of male agent here. And as I\Nsaid, this is certainly a really cheesy
Dialogue: 0,0:08:24.24,0:08:31.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,ad, but I think, I hope underscores the\Nsort of consistent promulgation of this
Dialogue: 0,0:08:31.67,0:08:38.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,relationship with technology. And so I \Nwant to suggest is that tech here over the
Dialogue: 0,0:08:38.46,0:08:46.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,20th and into the 21st century is not just\Nreflecting a legacy of division, of which
Dialogue: 0,0:08:46.42,0:08:52.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,gender prescription, gender roles are a\Npart of this, but is actually actively
Dialogue: 0,0:08:52.52,0:08:59.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,been involved in enforcing this. And so\Nwe've got basically a white patriarchal,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:59.20,0:09:06.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Christian, native-born supremacy, and a\Nglobal system of racial capitalism. And so
Dialogue: 0,0:09:06.88,0:09:11.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I've shown you who's sort of at the top of\Nthis hierarchy. We've got colonized
Dialogue: 0,0:09:11.31,0:09:18.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,subjects, immigrants, women, rural and\Nlower class people, indigenous people
Dialogue: 0,0:09:18.44,0:09:22.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,coming out on the bottom. And both\Nbuilders and consumers of tech are
Dialogue: 0,0:09:22.69,0:09:30.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,implicated in this tension. OK, so going\Nback even further in the history to sort
Dialogue: 0,0:09:30.96,0:09:35.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of where some of this comes from. I'm not\Nsure how many of you thought that in a
Dialogue: 0,0:09:35.68,0:09:39.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,discussion of hacking you'd be looking at\Na 19th century American oil painting. But
Dialogue: 0,0:09:39.66,0:09:45.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,here we are. This is called American\NProgress. So I think mythologized American
Dialogue: 0,0:09:45.49,0:09:51.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,progress from the late 19th century. And\Nas you can probably see, there's a real
Dialogue: 0,0:09:51.53,0:09:57.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sort of light to dark element of the \Nphoto, of the picture, the painting. And we
Dialogue: 0,0:09:57.11,0:10:04.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have this maiden who's really not so much\Na person, but more like a God, this is
Dialogue: 0,0:10:04.72,0:10:12.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sort of Greek iconography, sort of up\Nabove everyone, up above man. And we do
Dialogue: 0,0:10:12.66,0:10:18.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,see technology in the painting. We see\Nthe railroads and some ships on the right
Dialogue: 0,0:10:18.95,0:10:24.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,hand side, which is the east. And so you\Ncan tell that she's sort of presiding over
Dialogue: 0,0:10:24.78,0:10:28.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,everybody, settling the west. And again,\Nthey're bringing the light, which is
Dialogue: 0,0:10:28.36,0:10:32.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,civilization. The maiden herself is\Nactually carrying a book which symbolizes
Dialogue: 0,0:10:32.85,0:10:38.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,knowledge and what may not be obvious, but\Nshe's actually got telegraph wire strung
Dialogue: 0,0:10:38.12,0:10:44.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,around her arm. And then you can see the\Ntelegraph pattern behind her. And so this
Dialogue: 0,0:10:44.57,0:10:53.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,control over technology is part of how\Nwhite settler, you know, newly arrived
Dialogue: 0,0:10:53.09,0:10:59.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Americans are maintaining or sort of\Npromoting and maintaining dominance over
Dialogue: 0,0:10:59.02,0:11:03.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,their new continent, their new continent.\NAnd you can actually see, so we've
Dialogue: 0,0:11:03.10,0:11:07.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,got these white settler folks in the\Ncenter of the painting. All the way in the
Dialogue: 0,0:11:07.84,0:11:12.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,dark are indigenous people. And there's\Nalso actually a bear. So they're sort of,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:12.11,0:11:19.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,again, a biblical hierarchy of man over\Nthe beasts. And you can tell that the
Dialogue: 0,0:11:19.66,0:11:23.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,indigenous subjects and the bear are\Nprobably either going to get run out of
Dialogue: 0,0:11:23.33,0:11:29.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the frame or sort of forced to become\Ncivilized. So this is very deep in how
Dialogue: 0,0:11:29.81,0:11:39.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,American sort of hierarchy and notions of\Ndominance get promoted and, you know, sort
Dialogue: 0,0:11:39.43,0:11:45.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of renewed over time. And this is\Ninteresting because this ideology is so
Dialogue: 0,0:11:45.74,0:11:51.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,strong that it's actually succeeded in\Nbasically erasing some of the historical
Dialogue: 0,0:11:51.93,0:11:58.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,record. Like, for instance, we know that\Nthere were women, highly skilled women
Dialogue: 0,0:11:58.18,0:12:04.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,operators in World War 2 operating the\Nfirst electronic computers. This is ENIAC
Dialogue: 0,0:12:04.69,0:12:11.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the US. But they were still, they were\Nsort of written out of the record and
Dialogue: 0,0:12:11.28,0:12:20.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,computing, once it became popular and moved\Nout of a top secret military project, the
Dialogue: 0,0:12:20.41,0:12:27.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,womens' roles were basically effaced and\Ncredit for dominance over and sort of
Dialogue: 0,0:12:27.76,0:12:34.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,control over the new technology publicly\Nwent to men. And again, so we see this
Dialogue: 0,0:12:34.18,0:12:38.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sort of sorting happening in all these\Ndifferent ways, even in defiance of the
Dialogue: 0,0:12:38.44,0:12:45.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,actual historical record. Another\Ninstance, which may be kind of surprising
Dialogue: 0,0:12:45.91,0:12:52.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is this is a really wonderful article by\NLisa Nakamura that I'm drawing from here.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:52.35,0:13:02.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This is a Fairchild Semiconductor, so\Nthey're based in Silicon Valley, they used
Dialogue: 0,0:13:02.05,0:13:08.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to make microchips and associated\Nequipment in Silicon Valley, but they had
Dialogue: 0,0:13:08.35,0:13:13.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,an intermediate period before outsourcing\Nthat stuff to Asia, where they opened
Dialogue: 0,0:13:13.65,0:13:20.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,operations on a Navajo reservation in the\NAmerican Southwest. And so there's really
Dialogue: 0,0:13:20.92,0:13:28.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,interesting ways in which race and gender\Nbasically become resources for valuing the
Dialogue: 0,0:13:28.08,0:13:33.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,labor of some kind of people more and\Nother kinds of people less. So this
Dialogue: 0,0:13:33.63,0:13:40.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,reservation is attractive because regular\NAmerican labor laws didn't obtain and they
Dialogue: 0,0:13:40.41,0:13:47.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,also, managers in their minds, thought, oh\Nthere's this history of Navajo weaving and
Dialogue: 0,0:13:47.60,0:13:55.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sort of fine fabrication work. And so\Nthere's a sort of stereotype that nonwhite
Dialogue: 0,0:13:55.48,0:14:02.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people, particularly women, particularly\Nin this day and age, Asian, have "nimble
Dialogue: 0,0:14:02.55,0:14:07.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,fingers" and are going to be really good\Nand diligent at something that we need,
Dialogue: 0,0:14:07.74,0:14:12.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like electronics assembly, to be really\Nsort of diligently done. And so what we've
Dialogue: 0,0:14:12.61,0:14:21.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,got here is the sort of overlay of Navajo\Nweaving and microchip. So Nakamura calls
Dialogue: 0,0:14:21.73,0:14:28.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this insourcing, sort of outsourcing\Nbefore outsourcing. And, you know, now
Dialogue: 0,0:14:28.01,0:14:32.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,those laboratories and factories have\Nmostly moved to Asia. But this sort of
Dialogue: 0,0:14:32.21,0:14:38.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,period of experimentation with trying to,\Nlike, alienate the labor from the sort of
Dialogue: 0,0:14:38.59,0:14:43.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,managerial home. And so now we would\Nthink, like, you know, your Apple products
Dialogue: 0,0:14:43.12,0:14:47.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as assembled in China, designed in\NCupertino or whatever. But that kind of
Dialogue: 0,0:14:47.88,0:14:54.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,thing, this is a sort of early moment of\Nthat. And so, again, I want to sort of
Dialogue: 0,0:14:54.51,0:14:58.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,underscore that race and gender are a\Nresource for global capitalism to assign
Dialogue: 0,0:14:58.67,0:15:04.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,worth to some people's bodies and work and\Nnot to others. Another way that this
Dialogue: 0,0:15:04.90,0:15:10.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,works, I don't know how much people in the\NUS will remember this, let alone outside
Dialogue: 0,0:15:10.36,0:15:15.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the US, but this is a student, a high\Nschool student who is a Sudanese American,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:15.33,0:15:23.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I believe, who was, you know, a geek. And\Nhe was enthusiastic about doing a DIY
Dialogue: 0,0:15:23.05,0:15:28.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,electronics assembly at home where he\Nbuilt a clock and he brought it to school
Dialogue: 0,0:15:28.54,0:15:34.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the school called police. And so here\Nwe can see that whiteness has been a
Dialogue: 0,0:15:34.92,0:15:40.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,resource for avoiding criminalization for\Ncertain kinds of sort of hacky
Dialogue: 0,0:15:40.61,0:15:46.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,activities. I'm certainly not saying that\Nno white people have been criminalized for
Dialogue: 0,0:15:46.48,0:15:51.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,hacking because that's not true. But\Ncertain activities get more of a pass
Dialogue: 0,0:15:51.58,0:15:57.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,based on who's participating in them. And\NI also want to point out that this legacy
Dialogue: 0,0:15:57.20,0:16:06.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of division and this system of social\Nsorting is flexible. In 2015, it
Dialogue: 0,0:16:06.16,0:16:14.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,could easily be turned to islamophobic\Npurposes, which is what happened here. And
Dialogue: 0,0:16:14.67,0:16:20.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so what I want to point out is there's\Na sort of like, you know, history of
Dialogue: 0,0:16:20.13,0:16:26.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,division and really sort of policing who's\Nin bounds and who's out of bounds for the
Dialogue: 0,0:16:26.41,0:16:33.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,most celebrated category of technological\Nagent, but I also want to sort of
Dialogue: 0,0:16:33.73,0:16:40.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,introduce the idea that this is not\Ninconsistent in a way with diversity as a
Dialogue: 0,0:16:40.72,0:16:48.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,market value. Capitalism is actually happy\Nto affirm difference if it can help sell
Dialogue: 0,0:16:48.53,0:16:54.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,something, even though here we also see\Nthe sort of, you know, cultural and even
Dialogue: 0,0:16:54.32,0:17:02.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,legal system being brought to bear to\Npunish certain forms of difference. OK, so
Dialogue: 0,0:17:02.65,0:17:06.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,at this point, this kind of statement is\Nreally ubiquitous. This is from 2012 from
Dialogue: 0,0:17:06.16,0:17:12.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a TechCrunch post. In my mind, the\Nwomen in tech discussion should really be
Dialogue: 0,0:17:12.81,0:17:17.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,framed as having different people with\Ndifferent experiences and different
Dialogue: 0,0:17:17.12,0:17:22.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,outlooks helps you build a better product.\NSo this is a pretty different framing of
Dialogue: 0,0:17:22.82,0:17:30.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,difference than the one I just showed you.\NBut the point is capitalism is
Dialogue: 0,0:17:30.10,0:17:35.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,actually able to sort of reconcile these\Nin these contradictions in a way. And you
Dialogue: 0,0:17:35.76,0:17:41.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,can also see this is my name tag from a\NGoogle sponsored event I attended for work
Dialogue: 0,0:17:41.37,0:17:46.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for this book. And they're not only saying\Nwe need women to help us build a better
Dialogue: 0,0:17:46.94,0:17:52.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,product, they're also reflecting back this\Nsort of symbol of femininity, you know, the
Dialogue: 0,0:17:52.73,0:17:56.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,pink Venus sign, which, of course, turns a\Nlot of people off. But it's you know, if
Dialogue: 0,0:17:56.81,0:18:02.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you're thinking about marketing, it's a\Nway to symbolize this inclusion. Right?
Dialogue: 0,0:18:02.83,0:18:09.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, I'm going to put up the only horribly\Nacademic slide I have for the whole talk.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:09.69,0:18:16.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This is a quote from Herman Gray who says,\N"Abstract notions of rights and freedom
Dialogue: 0,0:18:16.15,0:18:21.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and their expansion to new subjects elide\Nthe social salience of race and gender as
Dialogue: 0,0:18:21.58,0:18:26.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a basis of inequality even as it\Nculturally recognizes and celebrates
Dialogue: 0,0:18:26.14,0:18:32.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,differences." So here we can see the\Nmarket is happy to recognize and celebrate
Dialogue: 0,0:18:32.13,0:18:40.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,difference, to sort of take up, you know,\Nwomen in tech or whatever, while sort of
Dialogue: 0,0:18:40.13,0:18:46.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,papering over and doing nothing to unseat\Nthe sort of core, which is that race and
Dialogue: 0,0:18:46.72,0:18:53.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,gender are bases of inequality. So you can\Nsort of have this lip service, abstract
Dialogue: 0,0:18:53.37,0:19:00.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,expansion of, you know, new identities.\NBut what is sort of always intact is even
Dialogue: 0,0:19:00.22,0:19:04.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if you're sort of bringing one group over\Nand saying, oh, you know, you're part of
Dialogue: 0,0:19:04.19,0:19:11.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the dominant group, now, in some way.\NThe system of sorting is remaining intact
Dialogue: 0,0:19:11.55,0:19:18.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and in a less abstract way. Like in the US\Nthis summer, there is huge Black Lives
Dialogue: 0,0:19:18.02,0:19:23.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Matter protests, uprisings. And pretty\Nquickly, all these companies started
Dialogue: 0,0:19:23.98,0:19:29.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,saying, oh, yes, Black Lives Matter, we\Nsupport this. You know, Amazon was really
Dialogue: 0,0:19:29.04,0:19:34.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,prominent among them. And yet Amazon\Ndoesn't stop to question whether or not
Dialogue: 0,0:19:34.72,0:19:40.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's exploiting racialized workforce\Nduring Covid with warehouse work and
Dialogue: 0,0:19:40.45,0:19:44.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,delivery work. These are some of the\Nlowest paid workers. They are not getting
Dialogue: 0,0:19:44.81,0:19:50.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,health insurance. They're not getting\Nconsistent hazard pay or protection. And
Dialogue: 0,0:19:50.62,0:19:56.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they're dying at disproportionate rates.\NBut Amazon is very happy to say black
Dialogue: 0,0:19:56.57,0:20:04.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,lives matter as part of the PR. Similarly,\Nthey're still basically building
Dialogue: 0,0:20:04.14,0:20:10.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,surveillance equipment, but there's no\Ninconsistency between the sort of
Dialogue: 0,0:20:10.69,0:20:16.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,recognition and celebration of difference\Nwhile working to continue to cement that
Dialogue: 0,0:20:16.07,0:20:22.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,difference and exploit that difference.\NSo all of this is to say is that diversity
Dialogue: 0,0:20:22.58,0:20:32.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is, in my opinion, a rather toothless \Nvalue to sort of attach to the work and
Dialogue: 0,0:20:32.22,0:20:38.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the sort of meaning for what's at stake\Nwith working with tech and with inclusion,
Dialogue: 0,0:20:38.56,0:20:44.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,too. Diversity can sort of bring\Nour attention to these patterns of social
Dialogue: 0,0:20:44.13,0:20:48.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,difference. But if it ends there, it can\Nactually kind of draw us in the wrong
Dialogue: 0,0:20:48.30,0:20:54.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,directions without the tools we might need\Nto, you know, actually make some of the
Dialogue: 0,0:20:54.83,0:20:58.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,more justice affirming points that I\Nthink are why people are drawn to these
Dialogue: 0,0:20:58.77,0:21:04.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,topics in the first place. OK, so after\Nthis digression, getting more some into
Dialogue: 0,0:21:04.76,0:21:10.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,how this relates to hacking and free\Nsoftware. So I've established a sort of
Dialogue: 0,0:21:10.75,0:21:18.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,legacy of division. And I want to sort of\Nunderscore that the hacking and free
Dialogue: 0,0:21:18.19,0:21:23.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,software milieu has had this commitment to\Nfreedom and openness. That's definitely
Dialogue: 0,0:21:23.53,0:21:30.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,been at the core pretty consistently. But\Nhistorically, this has really had to do
Dialogue: 0,0:21:30.97,0:21:36.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with, the freedom and openness has been\Nabout controlling technology, some free
Dialogue: 0,0:21:36.03,0:21:42.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,speech of course. It's definitely about\Nthe individual's exercise of freedom
Dialogue: 0,0:21:42.97,0:21:47.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,without necessarily a lot of thought about\Nwho the individual is, who's maximally
Dialogue: 0,0:21:47.43,0:21:56.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,empowered to be free, or it's been about\Nindividuals in collectives, but that are
Dialogue: 0,0:21:56.34,0:22:01.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,relatively small and relatively\Nhomogenous. And so what I want to suggest
Dialogue: 0,0:22:01.77,0:22:08.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is this sat within the bigger context of\Ntech and division, but without really
Dialogue: 0,0:22:08.15,0:22:13.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,acknowledging this, because the freedom of\Nthe individual was presented as a sort of
Dialogue: 0,0:22:13.84,0:22:19.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,universal value. Even though in practice\Nit really, really wasn't. And I think
Dialogue: 0,0:22:19.77,0:22:26.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,around 15 to 20 years ago that really\Nstarted to change. When I started working
Dialogue: 0,0:22:26.46,0:22:31.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on this project, there was already a good\Ndeal of agitation forming some of these
Dialogue: 0,0:22:31.62,0:22:38.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,groups in free software and related\Nprojects to especially draw attention to
Dialogue: 0,0:22:38.80,0:22:46.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the sort of disparities around women and\NPy Star was initially for sort of women,
Dialogue: 0,0:22:46.30,0:22:51.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and it was was trans-inclusive and I think\Npretty quickly this started as a women,
Dialogue: 0,0:22:51.23,0:22:57.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but then it became often non-binary and\Ntrans-inclusive, so not the sort of
Dialogue: 0,0:22:57.64,0:23:03.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,essentialist version of women. Something\Nhappened in 2006 that really caused this
Dialogue: 0,0:23:03.40,0:23:10.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,topic to really spring to the fore in a\Nlot of these communities. There was an EU
Dialogue: 0,0:23:10.67,0:23:18.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,policy report that came out. So the\Nresearch was from 2004/2005 that showed
Dialogue: 0,0:23:18.11,0:23:26.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that the rate of participation by women\Nand FLOSS was less than 2% and that was
Dialogue: 0,0:23:26.23,0:23:31.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,significantly less even than academic and\Nproprietary computer science. And so that,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:31.18,0:23:37.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think, really shocked people who had\Nmaybe sort of intuitively known, oh, yeah,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:37.21,0:23:44.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this isn't very representative, but that\Nnumber really galvanized a lot of
Dialogue: 0,0:23:44.46,0:23:50.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,conversations and got people started\Ntalking and organizing basically in new
Dialogue: 0,0:23:50.55,0:23:56.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,ways. And so I'm now going to show just a\Nhandful of sort of what this report
Dialogue: 0,0:23:56.39,0:24:04.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,caused, which is a bunch of conversations.\NThis is from the hackers on planet Earth
Dialogue: 0,0:24:04.98,0:24:11.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Hope Conference in New York in 2006. And\Nit may not totally be clear what's going
Dialogue: 0,0:24:11.65,0:24:20.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on here, but some folks had responded to\Nthis statistic on the one hand and this
Dialogue: 0,0:24:20.09,0:24:28.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,quote from this United States senator who\Nhad said something like, sort of gibberish
Dialogue: 0,0:24:28.21,0:24:32.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about he was supposed to be considering\Nnet neutrality and internet regulation,
Dialogue: 0,0:24:32.90,0:24:36.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and he said something like, the internet\Nis a series of tubes. It's not a truck
Dialogue: 0,0:24:36.67,0:24:41.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that you dump something on. And everybody\Nwas making fun of him for not even, you
Dialogue: 0,0:24:41.95,0:24:48.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,know, understanding networked computing at\Nall. But these activists sort of put these
Dialogue: 0,0:24:48.21,0:24:52.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,together in a sort of mash-up. And they\Nwere selling t-shirts, actually, that said
Dialogue: 0,0:24:52.93,0:24:58.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"The Internet: A Series of Tubes". And as\Nyou can see, that's a sort of textbook
Dialogue: 0,0:24:58.18,0:25:03.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,representation of a female reproductive\Nsystem. And so they just sort of brought
Dialogue: 0,0:25:03.42,0:25:08.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this to the conference and they were\Ntrying to force a conversation about it
Dialogue: 0,0:25:08.38,0:25:12.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because they estimated, this is not an\Nofficial count, but they estimated that
Dialogue: 0,0:25:12.08,0:25:18.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there were maybe, the ratio of women to \Nmen at Hope was like 1:40. And so they
Dialogue: 0,0:25:18.94,0:25:25.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,just wanted to force a conversation about\Nthis. This is an artifact from a little bit
Dialogue: 0,0:25:25.40,0:25:32.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,later, 2014, about the rise of explicitly\Ndedicated feminist hacker spaces, and this
Dialogue: 0,0:25:32.70,0:25:39.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is from the US and it's just a flyer for a\NZine-making workshop, which is again, a
Dialogue: 0,0:25:39.71,0:25:46.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,pretty mundane thing, but just the sort of\Ndifference between the 2006 sort of flag
Dialogue: 0,0:25:46.65,0:25:51.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,planting and something a bit later where\Nthere's actually a separate space here.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:51.34,0:25:57.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And crucially, Zine-making isn't\Nnecessarily in bounds with traditional
Dialogue: 0,0:25:57.66,0:26:06.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,hacking, but it is closer to sort of\Nstrands of feminist consciousness raising
Dialogue: 0,0:26:06.00,0:26:11.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and riot grrrl. And so there's a sort of\Nintermingling of these different kind of
Dialogue: 0,0:26:11.91,0:26:19.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,threads of DIY, basically. This is another\Nartifact from someone in Philadelphia who
Dialogue: 0,0:26:19.14,0:26:25.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was an artist and a designer and was\Ntrying to find a way from the stuff that
Dialogue: 0,0:26:25.84,0:26:34.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,she knew how to do with craft and sewing\Nand find a way into electronics and soft
Dialogue: 0,0:26:34.37,0:26:42.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,circuits and doing new things. And so she,\Nkind of for her own exploration, knitted a
Dialogue: 0,0:26:42.86,0:26:50.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,scarf using Ethernet cables. And for\Nher this was a kind of speculative object
Dialogue: 0,0:26:50.31,0:26:54.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that was meant to help her find her way\Ninto electronics, but also to kind of
Dialogue: 0,0:26:54.54,0:27:02.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,start conversations about why haven't\Nthese things gotten together. Also seeing
Dialogue: 0,0:27:02.20,0:27:12.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,gatherings like this one, a more sort of\Nexplicitly radicalized feminist hacking
Dialogue: 0,0:27:12.06,0:27:15.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,convergence. And I don't know if everybody\Ncan read all the text, but it says
Dialogue: 0,0:27:15.98,0:27:20.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"Trans Futuristic Cyborgs, anti-racist,\Nanti-sexist, gynepunk, DIY-DiWO - so taking
Dialogue: 0,0:27:20.93,0:27:32.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,DIY of a sort of heroic individualist to\Ndoing it with others, making it more
Dialogue: 0,0:27:32.75,0:27:38.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,self-consciously collective and less\Nindividualist self-reliant. It also says
Dialogue: 0,0:27:38.67,0:27:44.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,gender-hacking, anti-capitalism, libre\Nculture, technologies, bio-hacking. So
Dialogue: 0,0:27:44.31,0:27:53.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,again a sort of spectrum of politics and\Ninterventions around hacking and feminist
Dialogue: 0,0:27:53.00,0:28:00.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,hacking. And I'm going to dwell for a\Nmoment on feminist servers. Haven't spent
Dialogue: 0,0:28:00.95,0:28:07.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,too much, haven't had too much text on\Nslides. But this one is. So these are
Dialogue: 0,0:28:07.00,0:28:11.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,artifacts that were on the one hand,\Nbasically, like an independently
Dialogue: 0,0:28:11.96,0:28:18.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,maintained server run primarily by women-\Nidentifying folks or non-masculine
Dialogue: 0,0:28:18.34,0:28:25.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,identifying folks running free software,\Nbut they're also a sort of list of
Dialogue: 0,0:28:25.20,0:28:31.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,networking principles that gets out of\Nthat more kind of literal artifactual mode
Dialogue: 0,0:28:31.05,0:28:42.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,into a more sort of speculative and\Naspirational sort of politics of what it
Dialogue: 0,0:28:42.09,0:28:46.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,means to be doing this. And so the first\Ncouple- it's actually a very long list and
Dialogue: 0,0:28:46.54,0:28:51.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I only have a handful up here - the first\Ncouple, I think, are very consonant with
Dialogue: 0,0:28:51.19,0:28:58.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,kind of mainstream hacking, wants networks\Nto be mutable and read-write accessible,
Dialogue: 0,0:28:58.59,0:29:02.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and radically questions the conditions for\Nserving and service experiments with
Dialogue: 0,0:29:02.37,0:29:08.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,changing client-server relations. Those,\Nagain, seem kind of axiomatic for
Dialogue: 0,0:29:08.07,0:29:14.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,mainstream hacking. But then the feminist\Nserver starts to go in some other
Dialogue: 0,0:29:14.15,0:29:19.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,directions; is autonomous in the sense\Nthat she decides her own dependencies. I
Dialogue: 0,0:29:19.32,0:29:23.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,think this one's really interesting and\Nimportant. It's again, it's getting away
Dialogue: 0,0:29:23.09,0:29:31.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from this kind of heroic, individualistic\Nor almost sort of libertarian sense of
Dialogue: 0,0:29:31.31,0:29:36.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,autonomy. It's just the autonomy is about\Ndeciding where you're dependent and being
Dialogue: 0,0:29:36.45,0:29:42.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sort of transparent and open about that.\NIt's not about bootstrapping or being
Dialogue: 0,0:29:42.97,0:29:48.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,individually self-sufficient; does not\Nstrive for seamlessness, division of
Dialogue: 0,0:29:48.93,0:29:53.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,labor; the not so fun stuff is made by\Npeople. That's a feminist issue. That one,
Dialogue: 0,0:29:53.74,0:29:59.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think is really important. A lot of\Nhacking that goes on in, say, a Global
Dialogue: 0,0:29:59.24,0:30:07.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,North context is about the artifacts and\Nthe practices in that moment. But here
Dialogue: 0,0:30:07.75,0:30:13.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this is, if it's not clear, drawing\Nattention to where did that come from, it
Dialogue: 0,0:30:13.19,0:30:18.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,shouldn't be a seamless experience for you\Nnot thinking about the pre-history, the
Dialogue: 0,0:30:18.51,0:30:24.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,supply chain of this artifact, which\Nactually started with mining and
Dialogue: 0,0:30:24.06,0:30:32.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,fabrication and assembly and shipping. And\Nwill also have a post-use life, which
Dialogue: 0,0:30:32.74,0:30:40.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,might be recycling, might be very\Nhazardous reclaiming of precious metals
Dialogue: 0,0:30:40.77,0:30:47.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,by people without good labor protections,\Nor might not. But sort of instead of
Dialogue: 0,0:30:47.11,0:30:52.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,having this all be invisible, sort of\Ndrawing it forward treats technology as
Dialogue: 0,0:30:52.55,0:30:56.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,part of a social reality. This is a big\None, but it's really just sort of opening
Dialogue: 0,0:30:56.36,0:31:02.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,up the space to acknowledge that legacy of\Ndivision that I was talking about earlier.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:02.12,0:31:07.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And takes the risk of exposing her\Ninsecurity. I like this one so much. It's
Dialogue: 0,0:31:07.58,0:31:13.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's really evocative on a few levels. But\Nat the most sort of basic level, what I
Dialogue: 0,0:31:13.46,0:31:18.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,want to point out is that it's very\Ndifferent than, again, a sort of threat or
Dialogue: 0,0:31:18.22,0:31:24.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a strand of hacking that's about owning\Nhard, or mastery or something. Instead,
Dialogue: 0,0:31:24.22,0:31:33.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's being, you know, sort of present with\Noneself and with others and disclosing
Dialogue: 0,0:31:33.76,0:31:40.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,insecurities, which could be network\Ninsecurities or personal ones. Right. So
Dialogue: 0,0:31:40.85,0:31:45.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's taking what it means to be engaging\Nin hacking and all these new and sort of
Dialogue: 0,0:31:45.72,0:31:51.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,mutated directions. One more example from\Nthe sort of feminist hacking that I want
Dialogue: 0,0:31:51.71,0:31:58.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to just tell you about for a second was\Nthis exercise. I was at a feminist hacking
Dialogue: 0,0:31:58.60,0:32:05.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,convergence in Montreal in 2016 and people\Ndid a exercise in understanding public key
Dialogue: 0,0:32:05.97,0:32:14.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,cryptography as a dance where, you know,\Ninstead of learning about this theory,
Dialogue: 0,0:32:14.44,0:32:18.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people actually tried to embody it. So\Nplacing your body in the relationship with
Dialogue: 0,0:32:18.91,0:32:24.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,tech and often some of these things happen\Nin kind of explicitly separate spaces, but
Dialogue: 0,0:32:24.96,0:32:30.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,going through the principles of\Ncryptography in a spontaneously
Dialogue: 0,0:32:30.85,0:32:36.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,choreographed dance and then performing it\Nall together. OK, so these are some of the
Dialogue: 0,0:32:36.60,0:32:42.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,ways, the mutant strains of feminist\Nhacking. I don't want to suggest that this
Dialogue: 0,0:32:42.37,0:32:47.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,has been just a very linear and conflict-\Nfree progression. And so I do want to
Dialogue: 0,0:32:47.77,0:32:54.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,dwell for a moment on just a single\Ninstance of conflict, which probably
Dialogue: 0,0:32:54.70,0:32:58.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the details will be unfamiliar, but there\Nmight be a sort of wider recognition
Dialogue: 0,0:32:58.37,0:33:07.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think. So this is from a hackerspace in\NPhiladelphia in 2011 and a handful of
Dialogue: 0,0:33:07.04,0:33:15.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,members of the space proposed holding an\Nevent to hack sex toys, and they thought
Dialogue: 0,0:33:15.91,0:33:24.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it was a pretty uncontroversial suggestion,\Nthe same as having an Arduino night or a
Dialogue: 0,0:33:24.28,0:33:29.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,... you know, I'm making stuff up. But\Nthey sort of put it out there as this:
Dialogue: 0,0:33:29.33,0:33:34.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,well, let's do this on the Saturday. And\Nthey were really surprised when a bunch of
Dialogue: 0,0:33:34.38,0:33:39.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,other members of the space were very\Nopposed to it. And this is in the book.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:39.25,0:33:46.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's a design for a DIY flogger made from\Na bicycle tube. And this was on the
Dialogue: 0,0:33:46.51,0:33:52.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,proposed sort of flier for the event. And\Nso what happened was they were really
Dialogue: 0,0:33:52.95,0:33:57.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,surprised that other people in the space\Nwere sort of like, no, no, we don't want
Dialogue: 0,0:33:57.09,0:34:01.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to have this here. We don't think it's\Nappropriate. And so here's a quote from
Dialogue: 0,0:34:01.38,0:34:09.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,one of the people who was opposing the\Nevent. And he says: "A lot of the hackers
Dialogue: 0,0:34:09.23,0:34:14.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,here at the space are the Make Magazine/\NInstructables type, not the Julian
Dialogue: 0,0:34:14.26,0:34:19.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Assange HOPEconference attending type or\Neven the kind that cares much about a
Dialogue: 0,0:34:19.10,0:34:26.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,global movement of hacker spaces. I'm not\Nsure what category dildo-hacking falls in.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:26.30,0:34:33.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,For a lot of people, DIY has to do with\Nthe sort of father-son nostalgia", end
Dialogue: 0,0:34:33.57,0:34:44.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,quote. So this is really interesting,\Nbecause we've got this acknowledgment of
Dialogue: 0,0:34:44.81,0:34:51.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,hacking being a variety of things, and\Nmaybe again, for some people in a European
Dialogue: 0,0:34:51.84,0:34:56.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,context where hacker spaces are often\Nmore political, maybe this Make Magazine
Dialogue: 0,0:34:56.76,0:35:06.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sort of home-project, personal fabrication\Nwill be a little bit unrecognizable or
Dialogue: 0,0:35:06.78,0:35:13.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,even disappointing, but it is part of\Nhacking and making in the US. And then, of
Dialogue: 0,0:35:13.28,0:35:19.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,course, there's the "information wants to\Nbe free" HOPE-conference, lock-picking all
Dialogue: 0,0:35:19.62,0:35:25.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,these kinds of things, hacking that he\Nacknowledges. But he he says, I'm not sure
Dialogue: 0,0:35:25.88,0:35:33.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what dildo-hacking is, maybe suggesting\Nit's not even hacking at all. And then he
Dialogue: 0,0:35:33.45,0:35:37.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,says, for a lot of people, DIY has to do\Nwith this father-son nostalgia, which I
Dialogue: 0,0:35:37.36,0:35:41.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,hope might make you think of the picture\NI had up at the very beginning of the
Dialogue: 0,0:35:41.84,0:35:50.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,father-son with the radio apparatus. And\Nso it's really interesting that this sort
Dialogue: 0,0:35:50.57,0:35:55.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of proposal that these people didn't think\Nof as being controversial turned into
Dialogue: 0,0:35:55.31,0:36:02.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this, pretty full on argument about what\Neven hacking is in the sort of essential
Dialogue: 0,0:36:02.46,0:36:10.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,way. And so here's a reply from one of the\Npeople who had proposed the workshop, and
Dialogue: 0,0:36:10.14,0:36:16.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,she says: "So my concern here is that it's\Na hackerspace. Initiative shouldn't be
Dialogue: 0,0:36:16.06,0:36:21.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,punished, particularly initiative that\Nshakes up old patterns. Our space is
Dialogue: 0,0:36:21.29,0:36:26.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,really stratifying into hardware-tinkering\Nas the core interest , and white males as
Dialogue: 0,0:36:26.11,0:36:32.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the demographic. I'm really frustrated.", \Nend quote. And so this again, I assume
Dialogue: 0,0:36:32.85,0:36:41.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that this is fairly recognizable to folks.\NRight? If the core of what hacking is, is
Dialogue: 0,0:36:41.85,0:36:48.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,taking it upon yourself to take artifacts\Nand practices that you already know how to
Dialogue: 0,0:36:48.32,0:36:54.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,do in a new direction; like that's what\Nhacking is, according to a lot of people.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:54.51,0:36:58.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so she's really surprised and really\Ndismayed and really, I think felt very
Dialogue: 0,0:36:58.30,0:37:09.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,hurt and rejected that this was flaring as\Ncontroversy, and was really surprised that
Dialogue: 0,0:37:09.12,0:37:15.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people were sort of raising the prospect\Nthat dildo-hacking was interruption of
Dialogue: 0,0:37:15.51,0:37:24.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a nostalgic father-son tech practice, that\Nwas somehow offensive. Certainly, it seems
Dialogue: 0,0:37:24.77,0:37:30.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like part of the problem might have been\Nthe introduction of sexuality and maybe
Dialogue: 0,0:37:30.81,0:37:34.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,questions about whose sexuality;\Nsexuality that didn't seem to center
Dialogue: 0,0:37:34.14,0:37:40.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,straight men. What happened was this\Ndidn't get resolved. The people who had
Dialogue: 0,0:37:40.54,0:37:48.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,proposed the workshop - included women,\Nmen and non-binary people - actually left.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:48.17,0:37:55.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They decamped to a new space that was\Nforming, that was forming with more kind
Dialogue: 0,0:37:55.75,0:38:01.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of feminist hacking principles and\Nwelcomed them there. And the first space
Dialogue: 0,0:38:01.42,0:38:08.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,stayed how they were and didn't have to\Nkeep having conflicts and grapple with
Dialogue: 0,0:38:08.10,0:38:12.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this kind of controversy anymore because\Nthe people - and they weren't kicked out -
Dialogue: 0,0:38:12.46,0:38:22.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but they decided to leave. And so, I know\Nthese conflicts have been very painful and
Dialogue: 0,0:38:22.56,0:38:27.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and alienating for people who have\Nexperienced them, even though maybe the
Dialogue: 0,0:38:27.27,0:38:32.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,content of this one seems almost funny or\Nsomething in hindsight. But what I want to
Dialogue: 0,0:38:32.16,0:38:40.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,propose is that part of why this has been\Nso difficult for people in these spaces is
Dialogue: 0,0:38:40.45,0:38:45.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that people are actually wrestling with\Nthis whole legacy of division that I laid
Dialogue: 0,0:38:45.55,0:38:50.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,out in the first part of the talk. So it\Nmay feel like you're just having an
Dialogue: 0,0:38:50.89,0:38:56.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,argument with your fellow group members\Nwho are a lot like you, but then you're
Dialogue: 0,0:38:56.69,0:39:02.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,breaking down along some kind of line that\Nyou both can't cross over to with the
Dialogue: 0,0:39:02.82,0:39:12.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,other one. But there's a sort of really\Ndeep sedimentary layer of who has been
Dialogue: 0,0:39:12.92,0:39:22.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,anointed the sort of power of agency over\Ntech and for whom that has been sort of
Dialogue: 0,0:39:22.29,0:39:26.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a taken for granted tacit assumption and\Nwho's had to sort of assert their presence
Dialogue: 0,0:39:26.24,0:39:30.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or their right to be there in different\Nways. And so when there are these
Dialogue: 0,0:39:30.38,0:39:34.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,conflicts and flashpoints, all of that\Nstuff is there. And that's actually really
Dialogue: 0,0:39:34.44,0:39:42.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,hard to solve anywhere. But it's very,\Nvery hard to solve in elective
Dialogue: 0,0:39:42.14,0:39:47.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,volunteeristic associations, I think, also\Nso not not to say impossible, but there's
Dialogue: 0,0:39:47.14,0:39:56.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a reason these conflicts are difficult.\NOK, so returning to diversity and this is
Dialogue: 0,0:39:56.52,0:40:03.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the same quote, I won't read it again, but\Nthe sort of idea that women in tech are
Dialogue: 0,0:40:03.60,0:40:10.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there to bring forward different\Nexperiences and build a better product.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:10.43,0:40:14.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Diversity is maybe necessary to start\Nthese conversations, or the idea of
Dialogue: 0,0:40:14.15,0:40:20.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,diversity, but I don't think it's\Nsufficient for the purposes here. It's too
Dialogue: 0,0:40:20.17,0:40:26.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,easily sitting alongside market values,\Nwhich I think are not what people in
Dialogue: 0,0:40:26.44,0:40:30.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,hackerspaces are primarily most\Ninterested in. And that's not really why
Dialogue: 0,0:40:30.63,0:40:36.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they're there. And it's also very easily\Nsteered away from the important political
Dialogue: 0,0:40:36.69,0:40:42.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,work that I think people in hacking\Ncommunities often want to do. It can sort
Dialogue: 0,0:40:42.80,0:40:49.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of mutate into this contradictory thing\Nwhere you've got sort of market values on
Dialogue: 0,0:40:49.15,0:40:54.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the one hand, and something that isn't\Nwhat you set out to do on the other hand,
Dialogue: 0,0:40:54.17,0:40:57.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I'm going to illustrate that with this\Nsomewhat more provocative example. This is
Dialogue: 0,0:40:57.94,0:41:04.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a meme I stole from the internet. But the\Npoint here is that you can make these
Dialogue: 0,0:41:04.73,0:41:10.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,diversity affirming slogans. And here\Nwe've got "Black Lives Matter" and "Yes,
Dialogue: 0,0:41:10.52,0:41:19.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we can" and LGBT sort of flags or slogans\Non a bomber. You can make these diversity
Dialogue: 0,0:41:19.01,0:41:24.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,affirming slogans fit within a system that\Nis fundamentally violent, carceral,
Dialogue: 0,0:41:24.74,0:41:30.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,militarized. It doesn't necessarily\Nchallenge the system itself to bring
Dialogue: 0,0:41:30.41,0:41:36.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,forward individuals' identities as members\Nof marginalized groups. In fact,
Dialogue: 0,0:41:36.48,0:41:40.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,capitalism is actually quite happy to\Nresolve what might seem like contradiction
Dialogue: 0,0:41:40.69,0:41:46.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,here, by commodifying identity, selling\Nit as a brand without resolving the
Dialogue: 0,0:41:46.30,0:41:51.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,fundamental tensions that we know that are\Nhere, that have to do with social power
Dialogue: 0,0:41:51.71,0:41:58.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and dominance and exploitation. So coming\Nback to the free software quote from the
Dialogue: 0,0:41:58.22,0:42:04.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,beginning, as I said, this sort of hit\Nconsensus, but I'm actually going to argue
Dialogue: 0,0:42:04.99,0:42:09.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's not really going far enough. Diverse\Nparticipation and making proprietary
Dialogue: 0,0:42:09.98,0:42:16.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,software extinct are fine, but I think\Nthey actually do not fully capture what's
Dialogue: 0,0:42:16.24,0:42:21.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,at stake in these very tough conversations\Nthat have been happening in hacking and
Dialogue: 0,0:42:21.64,0:42:31.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,free software groups. And so, we might\Nthink of this as, again, a point of entry,
Dialogue: 0,0:42:31.26,0:42:34.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but we might want to take it a bit\Nfarther. And this is as far as I'll go
Dialogue: 0,0:42:34.76,0:42:44.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with prescriptions or how-to. So specific\Nin local voluntaristic communities that
Dialogue: 0,0:42:44.19,0:42:49.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are either your hackerspace in the city\Nyou live in or the the project that you...
Dialogue: 0,0:42:49.92,0:42:55.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that's distributed, but that you work on.\NSo articulate values and politics.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:55.75,0:43:01.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Diversity is a good one. But I'm going to\Nsay it's necessary and not sufficient. And
Dialogue: 0,0:43:01.84,0:43:06.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,some of the things that I talk about in\Nthe book include like other forms of
Dialogue: 0,0:43:06.37,0:43:13.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,political beliefs, like decolonization or\Nattention to militarism that can actually
Dialogue: 0,0:43:13.72,0:43:18.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sort of force you to have sometimes harder\Nconversations, but ones that can clarify
Dialogue: 0,0:43:18.64,0:43:26.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,values and goals. Obviously, I don't need\Nto tell hacking groups, but keep
Dialogue: 0,0:43:26.49,0:43:32.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,theorizing and keep experimenting. That is\Na way, whether it's crypto dancing or not,
Dialogue: 0,0:43:32.74,0:43:38.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's a way to sort of like walk yourself\Nthrough what you're trying to sort of
Dialogue: 0,0:43:38.59,0:43:43.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,build and iterate. And within spaces - I\Nthink at this point this is fairly
Dialogue: 0,0:43:43.46,0:43:47.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,uncontroversial, but I do chronicle in the\Nbook how people got here - making and
Dialogue: 0,0:43:47.26,0:43:53.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,enforcing rules, having conversations\Nsometimes one on one, not a sort of public
Dialogue: 0,0:43:53.61,0:44:01.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,conflagration, flame war. But if people\Nfeel safe, respect each other enough
Dialogue: 0,0:44:01.30,0:44:07.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to actually talk through what is the sort\Nof point of contention or difference and
Dialogue: 0,0:44:07.90,0:44:13.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,see if you can understand one another. The\Nother thing I want to point out though, is
Dialogue: 0,0:44:13.35,0:44:18.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that there's a whole lot of stuff going on\Nhere that is much, much bigger than the
Dialogue: 0,0:44:18.56,0:44:24.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,spaces and communities that you're in. And\Nso it is kind of a mistake and no one's
Dialogue: 0,0:44:24.93,0:44:31.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,fault that you can't solve all of this in\Nthe groups that you're in. And so there
Dialogue: 0,0:44:31.34,0:44:38.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,also has to be much bigger society-wide\Ngoals that we all have our eyes on,
Dialogue: 0,0:44:38.45,0:44:43.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because if we solve some of this stuff,\Nthen, lo and behold, quote, "diversity in
Dialogue: 0,0:44:43.72,0:44:48.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,tech" would be a lot easier and probably\Nless fraught and contentious. But things
Dialogue: 0,0:44:48.42,0:44:54.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like demilitarization, supply chain\Njustice, basic social equity, workplace
Dialogue: 0,0:44:54.53,0:45:00.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,fairness, public reconciliation - I'm\Ngiving US examples here - reparations,
Dialogue: 0,0:45:00.52,0:45:07.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,land back. And obviously the one that's\Ncoming for all of us, climate, is going to
Dialogue: 0,0:45:07.83,0:45:12.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,be the biggest problem. It already is the\Nbiggest problem in terms of, you know,
Dialogue: 0,0:45:12.61,0:45:20.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,racial and economic and environmental\Njustice worldwide. So in conclusion, my
Dialogue: 0,0:45:20.32,0:45:25.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,little take home slogan is that there's no\Nhack or tech audit for justice, but there
Dialogue: 0,0:45:25.41,0:45:31.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are these different levels and you can work\Non one and work on another, but you can't
Dialogue: 0,0:45:31.27,0:45:37.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,solve the really big stuff in the sort of\Ntech domain. And that's not a shortcoming,
Dialogue: 0,0:45:37.07,0:45:42.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and it's not for lack of trying. That is\Nall. I'm very happy to quit talking so
Dialogue: 0,0:45:42.64,0:45:48.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,much and move to Q&A. Thank you so much\Nfor your attention. Thanks.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:48.10,0:45:52.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: All right. Thank you.\NDunbar-Hester: Thank you.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:52.10,0:46:02.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: All right, everyone, questions on\NTwitter, Mastodon, #rc3-two on IRC. We
Dialogue: 0,0:46:02.29,0:46:06.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,wait for a little bit and ask the\Nquestions in the meantime. So this
Dialogue: 0,0:46:06.35,0:46:12.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,research for this book, when\Ndid you actually do it, like timewise?
Dialogue: 0,0:46:12.21,0:46:18.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Dunbar-Hester: Yeah, it started, it\Nactually, we were talking before we had an
Dialogue: 0,0:46:18.36,0:46:23.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,audience a little bit about radio. And my\Nearlier project was about people building
Dialogue: 0,0:46:23.45,0:46:30.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,radio stations and - try to be brief - but\Nthey had a very emancipatory set of ideas
Dialogue: 0,0:46:30.43,0:46:35.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about what it meant to teach people how to\Nbuild electronics or solder a transmitter
Dialogue: 0,0:46:35.00,0:46:39.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,board or something. But they kept running\Ninto some of these patterns of exclusion
Dialogue: 0,0:46:39.88,0:46:46.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that I mentioned. And so it was actually\Nthrough them that I heard about these
Dialogue: 0,0:46:46.89,0:46:51.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,conversations that were starting to happen\Nin and hacking and open source communities
Dialogue: 0,0:46:51.49,0:46:56.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where people were trying to directly head-\Non confront some of this stuff. So I think
Dialogue: 0,0:46:56.81,0:47:03.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I heard about it in around the 2006 era,\Nstarted working on it, maybe... It's about
Dialogue: 0,0:47:03.19,0:47:09.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,2010 to about 2015, is the period\Nthat I was actively, you know, going to
Dialogue: 0,0:47:09.26,0:47:14.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,conferences and meet-ups and spaces and\Ninterviewing people. So it's this sort of
Dialogue: 0,0:47:14.04,0:47:17.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,snapshot. Yeah, that's the shortest\Nanswer. Thanks.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:17.90,0:47:22.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: All right. That's very interesting\Nbecause I kept thinking if you had
Dialogue: 0,0:47:22.71,0:47:26.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,encountered this sort of rise of the alt-\Nright or something like this, because I
Dialogue: 0,0:47:26.86,0:47:31.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,feel like in the last couple of years,\Nthese discussions have just become so much
Dialogue: 0,0:47:31.49,0:47:35.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,more radicalized and not from the left,\Nbut from the right, like where you can
Dialogue: 0,0:47:35.47,0:47:39.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,basically no longer talk about this\Nwithout just all hell breaking loose.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:39.84,0:47:41.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Right?\NDunbar-Hester: I think that's a really
Dialogue: 0,0:47:41.98,0:47:46.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,interesting point. And I think you're\Nright. This does, I mean, I was finishing
Dialogue: 0,0:47:46.83,0:47:51.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the book during the Trump era over here,\Nand I know you've got your own counterparts
Dialogue: 0,0:47:51.46,0:47:58.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in Europe, but this is all very much within\Nthat kind of Obama liberal, neo liberal
Dialogue: 0,0:47:58.10,0:48:03.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,framing. And actually something I wrote\Nabout, I think it's in the intro of the
Dialogue: 0,0:48:03.40,0:48:10.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,book, is the Obama White House had a women\Nin STEM, as part of a women and people of
Dialogue: 0,0:48:10.59,0:48:17.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,color in STEM, as part of a kind of\Nnational security and a nationalist agenda
Dialogue: 0,0:48:17.03,0:48:23.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,basically on their page. And the Trump\Nadministration took it down. So I think,
Dialogue: 0,0:48:23.11,0:48:33.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and also in the book, there's a discussion\Nof a channel for Polish Python users where
Dialogue: 0,0:48:33.13,0:48:38.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they were like fretting about how to ban\NNazis from the channel and whether Nazis
Dialogue: 0,0:48:38.63,0:48:44.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,were just people showing up and throwing\Nswastikas all over the IRC channel,
Dialogue: 0,0:48:44.86,0:48:49.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,whether that was "trolling" or whether it\Nwas real Nazis. And, yes, I think the sort
Dialogue: 0,0:48:49.95,0:48:59.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of stakes of some of this has gotten a lot\Nmore stark. And so in certain ways,
Dialogue: 0,0:48:59.61,0:49:04.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the sort of "which side are you on?"-\Nquestions are easier, but the sort of
Dialogue: 0,0:49:04.18,0:49:10.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,depth of what's at stake and what's being\Ndefended is maybe harder. So, yeah, the
Dialogue: 0,0:49:10.89,0:49:16.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,political context is sort of\Ntemporal is really is part of this, yeah.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:16.65,0:49:22.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: All right. Now we turn to the IRC.\NHave you looked into the woman in FLOSS as
Dialogue: 0,0:49:22.82,0:49:28.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,perhaps being one with predominantly\Nengineers as mothers/fathers?
Dialogue: 0,0:49:28.46,0:49:33.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Dunbar-Hester: Sorry, could you repeat\Nwomen in FLOSS ...?
Dialogue: 0,0:49:33.08,0:49:37.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: I think the question is whether\Nyou have sort of noticed a pattern that
Dialogue: 0,0:49:37.04,0:49:41.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,women that get into these spaces, sort of,\Nby their parents, have encountered
Dialogue: 0,0:49:41.97,0:49:46.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,engineering, I think it's a familiar\Ncontext.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:46.45,0:49:53.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Dunbar-Hester: Yes, I have not personally\Ndone research on that, but it does,
Dialogue: 0,0:49:53.23,0:50:03.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,y'know, sort of other historical and\Nsociological research shows that people
Dialogue: 0,0:50:03.23,0:50:11.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who are exposed at a young age,\Nthat's part of the differential. And even,
Dialogue: 0,0:50:11.71,0:50:18.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,even in households where, say, a computer\Ncame home early on, we're talking about a
Dialogue: 0,0:50:18.25,0:50:23.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,slightly older generation. A computer came\Nhome early on because parents brought it
Dialogue: 0,0:50:23.95,0:50:30.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,into the house. You know, boys were more\Nlikely to sort of claim it as theirs or
Dialogue: 0,0:50:30.52,0:50:35.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,take time on it or start playing with it\Neven a couple or a few years earlier than
Dialogue: 0,0:50:35.04,0:50:39.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,girls. And so, yeah, I haven't looked at\Nthat, the sort of life narratives
Dialogue: 0,0:50:39.76,0:50:44.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,directly, but other people have. And I\Ndraw on that. And that's also something I
Dialogue: 0,0:50:44.36,0:50:50.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,am hearing now from people who are adults\Nand are thinking about these problems and
Dialogue: 0,0:50:50.44,0:50:58.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,how they want to not have their own kids\Nencounter the same problems or sort of
Dialogue: 0,0:50:58.69,0:51:02.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,legacy of division. You definitely hear\Npeople saying, "I want this to get solved
Dialogue: 0,0:51:02.31,0:51:07.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so my daughter doesn't have a hard time."\NBut that's a little outside of what
Dialogue: 0,0:51:07.24,0:51:12.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I've looked at, but it feeds in, yeah.\NHerald: All right. All right. This is a
Dialogue: 0,0:51:12.66,0:51:16.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,slightly longer question. I'll try to do\Nmy best: I've witnessed a lot of white
Dialogue: 0,0:51:16.47,0:51:24.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,feminism in FOSS, that's free open source\Nsoftware, right? And FOSS diversity, equity
Dialogue: 0,0:51:24.15,0:51:30.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and inclusions. DEI Spaces. Is\Nintersectionality sufficiently recognized
Dialogue: 0,0:51:30.29,0:51:35.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as an issue in FOSS feminism, or is it\Nactually worse off due to the low number
Dialogue: 0,0:51:35.57,0:51:39.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of women in FOSS, around 2%.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:39.15,0:51:45.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Dunbar-Hester: Great. Yeah. So I couldn't.\NAt first I would flag that the numbers in
Dialogue: 0,0:51:45.77,0:51:52.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,FOSS have started to change. There's later\Nresearch that shows that they're up some.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:52.01,0:51:56.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The question about white feminism is a\Nreally good one. And I do write in the
Dialogue: 0,0:51:56.92,0:52:08.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,book about people sort of grappling with\Nthat. And so the sort of trajectory was
Dialogue: 0,0:52:08.31,0:52:18.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the first category that people started to\Nnotice of exclusion was women, and I think
Dialogue: 0,0:52:18.10,0:52:27.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I discussed how women opened up pretty\Nquickly to being non essentialist and
Dialogue: 0,0:52:27.18,0:52:32.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,again, inclusive of trans and non binary\Nsorts of identities. But I think that the
Dialogue: 0,0:52:32.49,0:52:39.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,race and the what I sometimes talk about\Nis sort of global positioning, the Global
Dialogue: 0,0:52:39.54,0:52:46.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,North hackers in Europe and North America.\NIt is harder, I think, for them to sort of
Dialogue: 0,0:52:46.80,0:52:55.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,deal as head on with, you know, race. And\NI mean, these are fundamental questions of
Dialogue: 0,0:52:55.52,0:53:04.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,racial capitalism. And so being positioned\Nwithin fairly well advantaged Global North
Dialogue: 0,0:53:04.46,0:53:10.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,communities, it is harder to confront some\Nof those issues. I think there's a
Dialogue: 0,0:53:10.08,0:53:15.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,consciousness of it, but I would say it's\Na lot. What I observed was a lot greater
Dialogue: 0,0:53:15.36,0:53:22.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,awareness and sort of development of\Npotential solutions for being inclusive of
Dialogue: 0,0:53:22.83,0:53:31.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,women than a sort of really broadly\Nintersectional notion of women, including
Dialogue: 0,0:53:31.65,0:53:37.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people in Global South positions and in\Nracialized categories in the Global North.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:37.98,0:53:43.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And again, I think there's been a\Nsort of probably a shift in attention to
Dialogue: 0,0:53:43.05,0:53:49.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that, some of which postdates the\Nperiod in the book. But I also think that
Dialogue: 0,0:53:49.79,0:53:54.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that it's uniquely hard, I think, to\Nsolve in volunturistic groups because the
Dialogue: 0,0:53:54.93,0:54:00.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,forces, at least in the US and I would\Nspeculate in Europe as well, like the
Dialogue: 0,0:54:00.18,0:54:10.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,forces that cause inequality and\Nsegregation. And, you know, like the tech
Dialogue: 0,0:54:10.10,0:54:13.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,industry is a really good place to see\Nthese contradictions, like what's going on
Dialogue: 0,0:54:13.08,0:54:22.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,now with, like Google and the firing of Dr\NTimnit Gebru is. You know, places where
Dialogue: 0,0:54:22.44,0:54:30.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there's a sort of capitalistic incentive\Nare not going to be able to solve these
Dialogue: 0,0:54:30.34,0:54:34.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,problems of inequality because the profit\Nmotive is always going to be there to
Dialogue: 0,0:54:34.73,0:54:43.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,build surveillance tech, to assist\Ncountries and that want to
Dialogue: 0,0:54:43.27,0:54:49.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,build prisons. Again, this is what's\Ncoming with climate stuff. And so saying,
Dialogue: 0,0:54:49.20,0:54:55.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,oh, you need to hire more black women or\Nsomething is like running smack into these
Dialogue: 0,0:54:55.42,0:54:59.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,contradictions. And this is part of why I\Nsay this really can't be solved within
Dialogue: 0,0:54:59.32,0:55:03.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,tech. And these are very big, thorny\Nissues. Another thing the final thing I'll
Dialogue: 0,0:55:03.01,0:55:10.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,point out this is sort of rambling is for\Na voluntaristic group, it's gonna be
Dialogue: 0,0:55:10.10,0:55:15.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,easier to make fairly small interventions.\NAnd so I think that that's. I actually
Dialogue: 0,0:55:15.96,0:55:20.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have somebody talking about this, like if\Nwe make the space more inclusive to
Dialogue: 0,0:55:20.14,0:55:28.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,anybody and say bad behavior isn't here or\Nisn't welcome here, you know, that can hit
Dialogue: 0,0:55:28.20,0:55:32.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a note where it might cause there to be a\Nsort of more inclusive community that
Dialogue: 0,0:55:32.68,0:55:36.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,would be welcoming to a bunch of different\Nkinds of folks. But it's not necessarily
Dialogue: 0,0:55:36.32,0:55:44.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,realistic to tailor in a voluntaristic group\Nthat's more a response to the sort of forms
Dialogue: 0,0:55:44.38,0:55:50.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of exclusion all the kinds of\Ndifferent people have experienced. And so,
Dialogue: 0,0:55:50.24,0:55:54.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,again, I think this is kind of a question\Nof scale, but I really do think that the
Dialogue: 0,0:55:54.84,0:56:00.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sort of way that voluntaristic groups,\Ni.e. not the market, not workplaces,
Dialogue: 0,0:56:00.22,0:56:06.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,articulate, you know, what they think the\Nproblems are and how
Dialogue: 0,0:56:06.16,0:56:09.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they can sort of begin to talk about\Nsolutions are really important precisely
Dialogue: 0,0:56:09.62,0:56:18.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because they're not hamstrung by the same\Ncontradictions that for profit spaces are.
Dialogue: 0,0:56:18.73,0:56:23.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That was a long ... That's a really great\Nquestion. I do take it up. Some are the
Dialogue: 0,0:56:23.77,0:56:26.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people I was writing about. I think we're\Nstarting to take it up. It's probably
Dialogue: 0,0:56:26.95,0:56:31.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,more full throated now. And it's very\Ncomplicated.
Dialogue: 0,0:56:31.03,0:56:34.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: Yes, all of these things.\NDunbar-Hester: Yeah.
Dialogue: 0,0:56:34.05,0:56:39.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: Alright, we do have an interesting\Nquestion: "Would you advise people to try
Dialogue: 0,0:56:39.19,0:56:45.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to change communities from within or just\Nstart new structures with more intersexual
Dialogue: 0,0:56:45.57,0:56:47.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,spaces?"\NDunbar-Hester: I don't have a great answer
Dialogue: 0,0:56:47.76,0:56:57.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to that. I think it is kind of the\Npressing question of the day, I think in a
Dialogue: 0,0:56:57.87,0:57:10.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,lot of a lot of spaces, and I see good\Nanswers on both sides, and I think it
Dialogue: 0,0:57:10.82,0:57:23.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,depends perhaps. I do see a virtue in\Nsome space being set aside, but how that a
Dialogue: 0,0:57:23.03,0:57:30.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,separate space chooses to interface with a\Nsort of wider space is going to vary. And
Dialogue: 0,0:57:30.57,0:57:33.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I don't think, I don't think it's\Nnecessarily a binary like you're either
Dialogue: 0,0:57:33.71,0:57:39.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,totally outside or you're within having a,\Nyou know, a big discussion about how to be
Dialogue: 0,0:57:39.53,0:57:44.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,maximally inclusive. I think those things\Nare always kind of dialogically happening.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:44.66,0:57:49.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I've seen people argue both sides of\Nit, and I've seen, I think, compelling
Dialogue: 0,0:57:49.77,0:57:58.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,answers on both sides of it. But, yeah, it\Nis kind of the place where the idea that
Dialogue: 0,0:57:58.74,0:58:06.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we're sort of all taking up this project\Ntogether can start to, you know, break
Dialogue: 0,0:58:06.12,0:58:10.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,down. And some people think you're really\Nlosing. A lot of people go off and stop,
Dialogue: 0,0:58:10.35,0:58:19.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you know, working together as some sort of\Nunified group. And so, yeah, I don't
Dialogue: 0,0:58:19.24,0:58:22.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have a great answer that. I do write\Nabout it in the book. And I would say it
Dialogue: 0,0:58:22.93,0:58:25.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,depends on what the goals are. I think\Nhaving some separate space is probably
Dialogue: 0,0:58:25.94,0:58:30.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,important in any event.\NHerald: Yeah, it seems like it is like
Dialogue: 0,0:58:30.03,0:58:34.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,these kind of hackerspace have at least\Nthe advantage of being able to accommodate
Dialogue: 0,0:58:34.70,0:58:39.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sort of subgroups, right. So you can have\Nthese certain events, certain working
Dialogue: 0,0:58:39.68,0:58:44.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,groups that can focus on these issues. For\Nexample, I think our host today, the xHain
Dialogue: 0,0:58:44.67,0:58:49.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,hackerspace in Berlin, just started this\Ntalk series "Gespräch unter Bäumen", which
Dialogue: 0,0:58:49.99,0:58:54.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is just "Talks below the trees", they have\Na LED tree in their hackerspace, and it
Dialogue: 0,0:58:54.82,0:58:58.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,just sort of naturally happened that it\Nhad only women as speakers and it was just
Dialogue: 0,0:58:58.11,0:59:02.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this lovely natural evolution of just\Nhaving much more interesting topics and
Dialogue: 0,0:59:02.37,0:59:07.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not just, you know, the traditional male\Nhacker kind of topics. So I think it's
Dialogue: 0,0:59:07.54,0:59:11.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,really cool. And you just have this\Nability to have these initiatives inside
Dialogue: 0,0:59:11.07,0:59:20.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,existing spaces somehow, but - just a rant\Nfrom my side. Someone had a question, the
Dialogue: 0,0:59:20.89,0:59:24.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,title of the book is just "Hacking\NDiversity", right? I think we mentioned
Dialogue: 0,0:59:24.02,0:59:26.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this at the beginning.\NDunbar-Hester: Yeah, I think the whole
Dialogue: 0,0:59:26.77,0:59:31.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,title, if you look for hacking diversity,\Nyou'll find it. My name, Princeton
Dialogue: 0,0:59:31.16,0:59:38.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,University Press. Yeah. I'll not be\Nshameless and say it's on very deep sale
Dialogue: 0,0:59:38.97,0:59:44.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,right now. If you were to buy it from\NPrinceton directly, there's a discount
Dialogue: 0,0:59:44.32,0:59:52.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,code and it's on my Twitter. It's I think\Nit's "H - D - E - V - S" anyway - it's
Dialogue: 0,0:59:52.66,0:59:55.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,40% percent off through like February.\NHerald: Nice.
Dialogue: 0,0:59:55.58,0:59:59.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Dunbar-Hester: Yeah. It's very affordable.\NHerald: Alright, can you comment on how
Dialogue: 0,0:59:59.68,1:00:03.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,structures like GitHub that predominantly\Nvalue codes and missions and other highly
Dialogue: 0,1:00:03.95,1:00:08.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,formalized tasks over community building\Nand less technical contributions play into
Dialogue: 0,1:00:08.88,1:00:15.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this nexus?\NDunbar-Hester: Yes, absolutely. I mean,
Dialogue: 0,1:00:15.55,1:00:21.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,historically, the focus on the\Nartifact, what you could produce, the
Dialogue: 0,1:00:21.57,1:00:30.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,code, even hardware, has taken on this\Nsort of exalted, symbolic meaning, and it
Dialogue: 0,1:00:30.53,1:00:36.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,has definitely contributed to both the\Ndenigration and the invisibility of people
Dialogue: 0,1:00:36.08,1:00:43.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who weren't doing that kind of work and\Nwho might be doing community building or
Dialogue: 0,1:00:43.09,1:00:50.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,even things documentation or translation,\Nright? With it's being global practices
Dialogue: 0,1:00:50.26,1:00:56.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that the sort of authors of the code are\Ngetting the sort of priesthood
Dialogue: 0,1:00:56.15,1:01:00.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,status and everyone else is sort of lower.\NI think, again, awareness of that is
Dialogue: 0,1:01:00.78,1:01:08.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,starting to change, but it's definitely\Ncontributed to again historical sense that
Dialogue: 0,1:01:08.65,1:01:14.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there was underrepresentation of some\Nkinds of folks. And I think there are ways
Dialogue: 0,1:01:14.94,1:01:22.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you can, it sort of starts with raising\Nawareness of this. But again, that sort of
Dialogue: 0,1:01:22.49,1:01:28.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,signal, the celebration of the the\Ntechnologist is coming in from all these
Dialogue: 0,1:01:28.85,1:01:35.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,other places in the culture. And so\Ndeprogramming that or something, as it
Dialogue: 0,1:01:35.07,1:01:41.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,were, is is tough, but not impossible. And\Nagain, I see that, I see that actually, at
Dialogue: 0,1:01:41.67,1:01:48.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,least here as part of the sort of bigger\Ncultural war. And, you know, the idea that
Dialogue: 0,1:01:48.47,1:01:55.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the sort of tech is the, you know, godly\Napparatus and everything else is, you
Dialogue: 0,1:01:55.27,1:02:02.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,know, humanities and squishy soft stuff we\Ndon't need that's going to fall away.
Dialogue: 0,1:02:02.10,1:02:08.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Yeah, it doesn't have to be as big of\Na topic as that, but that's again, it's
Dialogue: 0,1:02:08.19,1:02:12.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,all kind of in there. I don't know if\Nthat answered a question, but, yes, that's
Dialogue: 0,1:02:12.63,1:02:18.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there. And I think that's something that\Nthe first step in addressing it can be
Dialogue: 0,1:02:18.22,1:02:24.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,acknowledging it and and building forms of\Ncollaboration and that are not just sort
Dialogue: 0,1:02:24.35,1:02:30.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of like nominally non hierarchical, but\Nspecifically raising visibility and
Dialogue: 0,1:02:30.04,1:02:33.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sort of credit giving to other kinds of\Ncontributions.
Dialogue: 0,1:02:33.13,1:02:38.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: So do you feel as someone that is\Nactually a science and technology scholar
Dialogue: 0,1:02:38.11,1:02:43.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that this feels as like is finally getting\Nrecognized as something that exists and is
Dialogue: 0,1:02:43.15,1:02:47.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,real? Because I always have this impression\Nthat people just assume this doesn't exist
Dialogue: 0,1:02:47.19,1:02:51.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and no one thinks about this except them\Nand there is an entire academic field
Dialogue: 0,1:02:51.56,1:02:56.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about it. Do you think this is changing or\Nis it just to say?
Dialogue: 0,1:02:56.27,1:03:01.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Dunbar-Hester: I don't know. I mean, I\Nthink that there's a there's a lot of
Dialogue: 0,1:03:01.47,1:03:11.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,visibility on the one hand and even, you\Nknow, something in the US with and who
Dialogue: 0,1:03:11.54,1:03:17.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,knows what will be happening after COVID,\Nbut, you know, public school systems were
Dialogue: 0,1:03:17.15,1:03:23.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,having their budgets cut after the first\Nfinancial crisis in 2008. And one of the
Dialogue: 0,1:03:23.26,1:03:27.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,things that was being proposed was moving\Na hackerspace into a high school and sort
Dialogue: 0,1:03:27.45,1:03:35.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of having that, you know, come forward and\Ndo things that institutions had maybe once
Dialogue: 0,1:03:35.21,1:03:45.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,been doing. I think that that again, I'll\Nkeep coming back to the tension between
Dialogue: 0,1:03:45.56,1:03:52.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what I think some of the most interesting\Nvoluntaristic and politicized sort of
Dialogue: 0,1:03:52.13,1:03:58.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,goals for these kinds of activities, them,\Nversus what the market wants them to do,
Dialogue: 0,1:03:58.87,1:04:06.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are, are sort of in tension. And there was\Na moment where I was interviewing someone,
Dialogue: 0,1:04:06.22,1:04:12.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,maybe and I want to say 2012, and I was\Nasking him questions about free software
Dialogue: 0,1:04:12.27,1:04:16.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and he was very kind but he said something\Nlike, "Why are you asking me about free
Dialogue: 0,1:04:16.80,1:04:24.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,software? Like that's dead.", you know,\Nlike Open Source 1.0 - sort of. And I'm
Dialogue: 0,1:04:24.01,1:04:31.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not the only person who's written about\Nthat at all, but I think this sort of idea
Dialogue: 0,1:04:31.46,1:04:38.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that there's something here that can't\Njust be, you know, co-opted by a market
Dialogue: 0,1:04:38.16,1:04:45.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,like that's the hard part and, I mean. I\Nthink there is a lot of there's continuing
Dialogue: 0,1:04:45.17,1:04:50.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to be a lot of attention to hackathons and\Ncoding bootcamps and these kinds of
Dialogue: 0,1:04:50.48,1:04:58.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,things. But I don't know, I guess I'm sort\Nof too inside and outside at the same time
Dialogue: 0,1:04:58.82,1:05:02.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to have a good answer. I think that\Nthere's a well-established body of
Dialogue: 0,1:05:02.42,1:05:09.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,scholarly recognition of these activities.\NPeople look at me less weird talking about
Dialogue: 0,1:05:09.83,1:05:17.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this than a book about radio in the twenty\Nfirst century. But I think the sort of,
Dialogue: 0,1:05:17.65,1:05:25.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,you know, really sustained work to sort of\Ndisarticulate, disentangle some of this
Dialogue: 0,1:05:25.65,1:05:30.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from industry where it's getting the sort\Nof most not just attention, but the sort
Dialogue: 0,1:05:30.37,1:05:36.65,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of celebration and the ways that that can\Nkind of distort, I think, some of the
Dialogue: 0,1:05:36.65,1:05:39.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,other intentions that is is always going\Nto be tough.
Dialogue: 0,1:05:39.84,1:05:44.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: Allright. Wonderful. I think we're\Nout of time. So thank you very much.
Dialogue: 0,1:05:44.55,1:05:50.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Everyone, buy the book. And have a good\Nnight. Bye, bye.
Dialogue: 0,1:05:50.52,1:05:53.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Dunbar-Hester: Good day.\NThank you so much. Thank you.
Dialogue: 0,1:05:53.55,1:05:55.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Herald: Thank you.
Dialogue: 0,1:05:55.62,1:05:57.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{\i1}postroll music{\i0}
Dialogue: 0,1:05:58.54,1:06:03.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Subtitles created by c3subtitles.de\Nin the year 2021. Join, and help us!