9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Chris Anderson: Welcome. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 So look, just six months ago, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 it seems a lifetime ago,[br]but it really was just six months ago, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 climate seemed to be on the lips[br]of every thinking person on the planet. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Recent events seem to have swept it[br]all away from our attention. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 How worried are you about that? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Al Gore: Well, first of all Chris,[br]thank you so much for inviting me 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to have this conversation. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 People are reacting differently 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to the climate crisis 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in the midst of these[br]other great challenges 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that have taken over our awareness, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 appropriately. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 One reason is something[br]that you mentioned. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 People get the fact that when scientists 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 are warning us 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in ever more dire terms 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and setting their hair[br]on fire, so to speak, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 it's best to listen[br]to what they're saying, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and I think that lesson[br]has begun to sink in in a new way. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Another similarity, by the way, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 is that the climate crisis, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 like the COVID-19 pandemic, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 has revealed in a new way 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the shocking injustices and inequalities 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and disparities that affect[br]communities of color 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and low-income communities. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 There are differences. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 The climate crisis has effects[br]that are not measured in years, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 as the pandemic is, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 but consequences that are measured[br]in centuries and even longer. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And the other difference 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 is that instead of depressing[br]economic activity 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to deal with the climate crisis, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 as nations around the world[br]have had to do with COVID-19, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 we have the opportunity to create[br]tens of millions of new jobs. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 That sounds like a political phrasing, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 but it's literally true. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 For the last five years, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the fastest-growing job in the US[br]has been solar installer. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 The second fastest has been[br]wind turbine technician. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And the Oxford Review of Economics 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 just a few weeks ago 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 pointed the way to[br]a very jobs-rich recovery 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 if we emphasize renewable energy[br]and sustainability technology. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 So I think we are[br]crossing a tipping point, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and you need only look[br]at the recovery plans 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that are being presented[br]in nations around the world 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to see that they're very much[br]focused on a green recovery. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 CA: I mean, one obvious impact[br]of the pandemic 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 is that it's brought the world's economy[br]to a shuddering halt, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 thereby reducing greenhouse gas emissions. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I mean, how big an effect has that been, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and is it unambiguously good news? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 AG: Well, it's a little bit[br]of an illusion, Chris, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and you need only look back[br]to the Great Recession in 2008 and '9, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 where there was a one percent[br]decline in emissions, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 but then in 2010 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 they came roaring back during the recovery 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 with a four percent increase. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 The latest estimates are that emissions[br]will go down by at least five percent 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 during this induced coma, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 as the economist Paul Krugman[br]perceptively described it, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 but whether it goes back the way it did[br]after the Great Recession 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 is in part up to us, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and if these green recovery plans[br]are actually implemented, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and I know many countries[br]are determined to implement them, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 then we need not repeat that pattern. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 After all, this whole process is occurring 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 during a period when the cost[br]of renewable energy and electric vehicles, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 batteries, and a range of other[br]sustainability approaches 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 are continuing to fall in price, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and they're becoming[br]much more competitive. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Just a quick reference[br]to how fast this is: 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 five years ago, electricity[br]from solar and wind 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 was cheaper than electricity[br]from fossil fuels 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in only one percent of the world. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 This year, it's cheaper[br]in two thirds of the world, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and five years from now 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 it will be cheaper in virtually[br]100 percent of the world. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 EVs will be cost-competitive[br]within two years, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and then will continue falling in price. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And so there are changes underway 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that could interrupt the pattern[br]we saw after the Great Recession. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 CA: The reason those pricing differentials[br]happen in different parts of the world 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 is obviously just because 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 there's different amounts[br]of sunshine and wind there 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and different building costs and so forth. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 AG: Well, yes, and government policies[br]also count for a lot. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 The world is continuing[br]to subsidize fossil fuels 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 at a ridiculous amount, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 moreso may developing countries[br]than in the US and developed countries, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 but it's subsidized here as well. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 But everywhere in the world, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 wind and solar will be cheaper[br]as a source of electricity 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 than fossil fuels within a few years. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 CA: I think I've heard it said[br]that the fall in emissions 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 caused the pandemic 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 isn't that much more 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 than the fall that we will need[br]every single year 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 if we're to meet emissions targets. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Is that true, and, if so, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 doesn't that seem impossibly daunting? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 AG: It does seem daunting,[br]but first look at the number. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 That number came from a study[br]a little over a year ago 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 released by the IPCC 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 as to what it would take 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to keep the Earth's temperatures 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 from increasing more than[br]1.5 degrees Celsius. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And yes, the annual reductions[br]would be significant, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 on the order of what we've seen[br]with the pandemic. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And yes, that does seem daunting. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 However, we do have the opportunity[br]to make some fairly dramatic changes, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and the plan is not a mystery. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 You start with the two sectors that are[br]closest to an effective transition -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 electricity generation, as I mentioned, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and last year, 2019, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 if you look at all of the new[br]electricity generation built 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 all around the world, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 72 percent of it was from solar and wind. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And already, without the continuing[br]subsidies for fossil fuels, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 we would see many more of these plants 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 being shut down. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 There are some new[br]fossil plants being built, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 but many more are being shut down. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And where transportation is concerned, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the second sector ready to go, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in addition to the cheaper prices[br]for EVs that I made reference to before, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 there are some 45 jurisdictions[br]around the world -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 national, regional, and municipal -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 where laws have been passed[br]beginning a phaseout 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 of internal combustion engines. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Even India said that by 2030,[br]less than 10 years from now, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 it will be illegal to sell[br]any new internal combustion engines 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in India. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 There are many other examples. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 So the past small reductions 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 may not be an accurate guide 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to the kind we can achieve 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 with serious national plans 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and a focused global effort. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 CA: So help us understand[br]just the big picture here, Al. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I think before the pandemic, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the world was emitting 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 about 55 gigatons of what[br]they call CO2 equivalent, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 so that includes other greenhouse gases 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 like methane dialed up[br]to be the equivalent of CO2. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And am I right in saying that the IPCC, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 which is the global[br]organization of scientists, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 is recommending that[br]the only way to fix this crisis 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 is to get that number from 55 to zero 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 by 2050 at the very latest, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and that even then that there's a chance[br]that we will end up with temperature rises 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 more like two degrees Celsius[br]rather than 1.5. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I mean, is that approximately[br]the big picture 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 of what the IPCC is recommending? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 AG: That's correct. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 The global goal established[br]in the Paris Conference 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 is to get to net zero on a global basis 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 by 2050, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and many people quickly add 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that that really means a 45[br]to 50 percent reduction by 2030 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to make that pathway 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to net zero feasible. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 CA: And that kind of timeline[br]is the kind of timeline 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 where people can't even imagine. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 It's just hard to think[br]of policy over 30 years. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 So that's actually a very good shorthand, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that humanity's task is to cut[br]emissions in half by 2030, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 approximately speaking, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 which I think boils down to 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 about a seven or eight percent[br]reduction a year, something like that, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 if I'm not wrong. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 AG: Not quite. Not quite that large, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 but close, yes. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 CA: So it is something like the effect[br]that we've experienced this year 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 maybe be necessary. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 This year we've done it[br]by basically shutting down the economy. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 You're talking about a way of doing it[br]over the coming years 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that actually gives some[br]economic growth and new jobs. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 So talk more about that. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 You've referred to[br]changing our energy sources, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 changing how we transport. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 If we did those things, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 how much of the problem does that solve? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 AG: Well, we can get to, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 well, in addition to doing[br]the two sectors that I mentioned, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 we also have to deal with manufacturing[br]and all the use cases 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that require temperatures[br]to a thousand degrees Celsius, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and there are solutions there as well. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I'll come back and mention an exciting one[br]that Germany has just embarked upon. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 We also have to tackle[br]regenerative agriculture. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 There is the opportunity 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to sequester a great deal of carbon 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in topsoils around the world 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 by changing the agricultural techniques. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 There is a farmer-led movement to do that. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 We need to also retrofit buildings. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 We need to change our management[br]of forests and the ocean. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 But let me just mention[br]two things briefly. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 First of all, the high[br]temperature use cases. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Angela Merkel, just 10 days ago, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 with the leadership of[br]her Minister Peter Altmaier, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 who is a good friend[br]and a great public servant, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 have just embarked on[br]a green hydrogen strategy 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to make hydrogen 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 with zero marginal cost renewable energy. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And just a word on that, Chris, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 you've heard about the intermittency[br]of wind and solar. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Solar doesn't produce electricity[br]when the sun's not shining 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and wind doesn't[br]when the wind's not blowing. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 But batteries are getting better, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and these technologies are becoming[br]much more efficient and powerful, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 so that for an increasing[br]number of hours of each day, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 they're producing often way more[br]electricity than can be used. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 So what to do with it? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 The marginal cost for[br]the next kilowatt-hour is zero. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 So all of a sudden, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the very energy-intensive process[br]of cracking hydrogen from water 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 becomes economically feasible, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and it can be substituted 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 for coal and gas, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and that's already being done. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 There's a Swedish company[br]already making steel 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 with green hydrogen, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and as I say Germany has just embarked[br]on a major new initiative to do that. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I think they're pointing the way[br]for the rest of the world. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Now, where building retrofits[br]are concerned, just a moment on this, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 because about 20 to 25 percent[br]of the global warming pollution 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in the world and in the US 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 comes from inefficient buildings 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that were constructed 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 by companies and individuals 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 who were trying to be competitive[br]in the marketplace 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and keep their margins acceptably high 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and thereby skimping on insulation[br]and the right windows 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and LEDs and the rest. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And yet the person or company[br]that buys that building 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 or leases that building, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 they want their monthly[br]utility bills much lower. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 So there are now ways 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to close that so-called[br]agent-principal divide, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the differing incentives[br]for the building and occupier, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and we can retrofit buildings with[br]a program that literally pays for itself 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 over three to five years, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and we could put tens of millions[br]of people to work 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in jobs that by definition[br]cannot be outsourced 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 because they exist[br]in every single community. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And we really ought to get serious[br]about doing this, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 because we're going to need all those jobs 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to get sustainable prosperity[br]in the aftermath of this pandemic. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 CA: Just coming back[br]to the hydrogen economy 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that you referred to there, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 when some people hear that, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 they think, oh, are you talking[br]about hydrogen-fueled cars? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And they've heard that that[br]probably won't be a winning strategy. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 But you're thinking much more[br]broadly than that, I think, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that it's not just hydrogen[br]as a kind of storage mechanism 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to act as a buffer for renewable energy, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 but also hydrogen could be essential 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 for some of the other processes[br]in the economy like making steel, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 making cement 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that are fundamentally[br]carbon-intensive processes right now 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 but could be transformed if we had[br]much cheaper sources of hydrogen. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Is that right? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 AG: Yes, I was always skeptical[br]about hydrogen, Chris, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 principally because it's been so expensive 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to make it, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to crack it out of water, as they say. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 But the game-changer has been[br]the incredible abundance 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 of solar and wind electricity[br]in volumes and amounts 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that people didn't expect, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and all of a sudden[br]it's cheap enough to use 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 for these very energy-intensive processes 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 like creating green hydrogen. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I'm still a bit skeptical[br]about using it in vehicles. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Toyota's been betting on that for 25 years[br]and hasn't really worked for them. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Never say never, maybe it will, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 but I think it's most useful for these[br]high-temperature industrial processes, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and we already have a pathway[br]for decarbonizing transportation 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 with electricity 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that's working extremely well. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Tesla's going to be soon the most valuable[br]automobile company in the world, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 already in the US, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and they're about to overtake Toyota. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 There is now a semi truck company 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that's been stood up by Tesla 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and another that is going to be a hybrid[br]with electricity and green hydrogen, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 so we'll see whether or not[br]they can make it work in that application. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 But I think electricity[br]is preferable for cars and trucks. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 CA: We're coming to some[br]community questions in a minute. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Let me ask you, though, about nuclear. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Some environmentalists[br]believe that nuclear, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 or maybe new generation nuclear power 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 is an essential part of the equation 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 if we're to get to a truly clean future, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 a clean energy future. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Are you still pretty skeptical[br]on nuclear, Al? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 AG: Well, the market's skeptical[br]about it, Chris. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 It's been a crushing disappointment[br]for me and for so many. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I used to represent Oak Ridge,[br]where nuclear energy began, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and when I was a young congressman 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I was a booster. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I was very enthusiastic about it. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 But the cost overruns 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and the problems in building these plants 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 have become so severe 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that utilities just don't have[br]an appetite for them. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 It's become the most expensive[br]source of electricity. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Now, let me hasten to add[br]that there are some older nuclear reactors 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that have more useful time[br]that could be added on to their lifetimes, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and like a lot of environmentalists[br]I've come to the view 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that if they can be determined to be safe, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 they should be allowed to continue[br]operating for a time. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 But where new nuclear[br]power plants are concerned, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 here's a way to look at it. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 If you are -- you've been a CEO, Chris. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 If you were the CEO of --[br]I guess you still are. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 If you were the CEO[br]of an electric utility, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and you told your executive team, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 "I want to build a nuclear power plant," 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 two of the first questions[br]you would ask are, number one, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 how much will it cost? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And there's not a single[br]engineering consulting firm 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that I've been able to find[br]anywhere in the world 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that will put their name on an opinion 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 giving you a cost estimate. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 They just don't know. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 A second question you would ask is,[br]how long will it take to build it 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 so we can start selling the electricity? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And again the answer you will get is, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 we have no idea. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 So if you don't know[br]how much it's going to cost, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and you don't know[br]when it's going to be finished, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and you already know that[br]the electricity is more expensive 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 than the alternate ways to produce it, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that's going to be a little discouraging, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and in fact that's been the case[br]for utilities around the world. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 CA: OK. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 So there's definitely[br]an interesting debate there, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 but we're going to come on[br]to some community questions. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Let's have the first[br]of those questions up please. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 From Prosanta Chakrbarty: 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 "People who are skeptical[br]of COVID and of climate change 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 seem to be skeptical[br]of science in general. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 It may be that the singular[br]message from scientists 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 gets diluted and convoluted. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 How do we fix that? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 AG: Yeah, that's[br]a great question, Prosanta. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Boy, I'm trying to put this[br]succinctly and shortly. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I think that there has been 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 a feeling that experts in general 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 have kind of let the US down, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and that feeling is much more pronounced[br]in the US than in most other countries. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And I think that considered opinion 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 of what we call experts 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 has been diluted over the last few decades 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 by the unhealthy dominance[br]of big money in our political system 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 which has found ways[br]to really twist economic policy 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to benefit elites, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and this sounds a little radical 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 but it's actually what has happened. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And we have gone for more than 40 years 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 without any meaningful increase[br]in middle income pay, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and where the injustice experienced[br]by African Americans 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and other communities[br]of color are concerned, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the differential in pay between[br]African Americans and majority Americans 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 is the same as it was in 1968, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and the family wealth, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the net worth, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 it takes 11 and a half so-called[br]"typical" African American families 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to make up the net worth of one[br]so-called "typical" White American family. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And you look at the soaring incomes 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in the top one 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 or the top one tenth of one percent, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and people say, "Wait a minute. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Whoever the experts were[br]that designed these policies, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 they haven't been doing[br]a good job for me." 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 A final point, Chris, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 there has been an assault on reason. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 There has been a war against truth. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 There has been a strategy, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 maybe it was best known as a strategy[br]decades ago by the tobacco companies 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 who hired actors and dressed them up[br]as doctors to falsely reassure people 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that there were no health consequences 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 from smoking cigarettes, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and a hundred million people[br]died as a result. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 That same strategy of diminishing[br]the significance of truth, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 diminishing, as someone said,[br]the authority of knowledge, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I think that has made it open season 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 on any inconvenient truth -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 forgive another buzz phrase -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 but it is apt. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 We cannot abandon our devotion[br]to the best available evidence 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 tested in reasoned discourse 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and used as the basis 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 for the best policies we can form. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 CA: Is it possible, Al,[br]that one consequence of the pandemic 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 is actually a growing number of people 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 have revisited their opinions 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 on scientists? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I mean, you've had a chance[br]in the last few months to say, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 do I trust my political leader[br]or do I trust this scientist 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in terms of what they're saying 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 about this virus. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Maybe lessons from that[br]could be carried forward? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 AG: Well, you know, I think[br]if the polling is accurate, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 people do trust their doctors[br]a lot more than some of the politicians 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 who seem to have a vested interest[br]in pretending the pandemic isn't real. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And if you look at the incredible bust 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 at President Trump's rally in Tulsa, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 a stadium of 19,000 people 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 with less than one third filled, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 according to the fire marshal, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 you saw all the empty seats 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 if you saw the news clips, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 so even the most loyal Trump supporters 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 must have decided to trust their doctors 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and the medical advice 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 rather than Dr. Donald Trump. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 CA: With a little help from[br]the TikTok generation, per chance. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 AG: Well, but that didn't[br]affect the turnout. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 What they did, very cleverly,[br]and I'm cheering them on, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 what they did was affect[br]the Trump White House's expectations. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 They're the reason why he went out[br]a couple days beforehand 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and said, "We've had[br]a million people sign up." 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 But they didn't prevent, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 they didn't take seats that others[br]could have otherwise taken. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 They didn't affect the turnout,[br]just the expectations. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 CA: OK, let's have our next question here. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 "Are you concerned the world will rush[br]back to the use of the private car 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 out of fear of using[br]shared public transportation?" 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 AG: Well, that could actually be[br]one of the consequences, absolutely. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Now, the trends on mass transit 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 were already inching[br]in the wrong direction 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 because of Uber and Lyft 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and the ridesharing services, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and if autonomy ever reaches the goals[br]that its advocates have hoped for 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 then that may also have a similar effect. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 But there's no doubt that some people 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 are gonna be probably a little more[br]reluctant to take mass transportation 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 until the fear of this pandemic 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 is well and truly gone. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 CA: Yeah. Might need[br]a vaccine on that one. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 AG: (Laughs) Yeah. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 CA: Next question. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Sonaar Luthra, thank you[br]for this question from LA. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 "Given the temperature rise[br]in the Arctic this past week, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 seems like the rate[br]we are losing our carbon sinks 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 like permafrost or forests is accelerating[br]faster than we predicted. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Are our models too focused[br]on human emissions?" 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Interesting question. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 AG: Well, the models are focused[br]on the factors that have led 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to these incredible temperature spikes 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in the north of the Arctic Circle. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 They were predicted,[br]they have been predicted, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and one of the reasons for it 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 is that as the snow and ice cover melts, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the sun's incoming rays 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 are no longer reflected back into space[br]at a 90 percent rate, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and instead when they fall on[br]the dark tundra or the dark ocean, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 they're absorbed at a 90 percent rate. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 So that's a magnifier 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 of the warming in the Arctic, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and this has been predicted. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 There are a number of other consequences[br]that are also in the models, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 but some of them[br]may have to be recalibrated. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 The scientists are freshly concerned 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that the emissions of both CO2 and methane 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 from the thawing tundra 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 could be larger than they[br]had hoped they would be. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 There's also just been a brand new study. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I won't spend time on this, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 because it deals with a kind of geeky term[br]called "climate sensitivity," 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 which has been a factor in the models[br]with large error bars 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 because it's so hard to pin down. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 But the latest evidence[br]indicates worryingly 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that the sensitivity may be[br]greater than they had thought, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and we will have[br]an even more daunting task. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 That shouldn't discourage us. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I truly believe that once[br]we cross this tipping point, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and I do believe we're doing it now, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 as I've said, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 then I think we're going to find 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 a lot of ways to speed up[br]the emissions reductions. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 CA: We'll take one more question[br]from the community. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Haha. "Geoengineering[br]is making extraordinary progress. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Exxon is investing in technology[br]from Global Thermostat 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that seems promising. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 What do you think of these air and water[br]carbon capture technologies?" 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Stephen Petranek. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 AG: Yeah. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Well, you and I have talked[br]about this before, Chris. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I've been strongly opposed 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to conducting an unplanned[br]global experiment 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that could go wildly wrong 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and most are really[br]scared of that approach. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 However, the term geoengineering 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 is a nuanced term that covers a lot. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 If you want to paint roofs white[br]to reflect more energy 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 from the cityscapes, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that's not going to bring a danger[br]of a runaway effect, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and there are some other things[br]that are loosely called "geoengineering" 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 like that which are fine. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 But the idea of blocking out[br]the sun's rays, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that's insane in my opinion. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Turns out plants need sunlight[br]for photosynthesis 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and solar panels need sunlight 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 for producing electricity[br]from the sun's rays. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And the consequences of changing[br]everything we know 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and pretending that the consequences[br]are going to precisely cancel out 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the unplanned experiment of global warming[br]that we already have underway, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 you know, there are[br]glitches in our thinking. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 One of them is called[br]the single solution bias, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and there are people[br]who just have a hunger to say, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 well, that one solution, we just need[br]to latch on to that and do that, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and do that, and damn the consequences. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Well, it's nuts. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 CA: But let me push back on this[br]just a little bit. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 So let's say that we agree[br]that a single solution 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 all-or-nothing attempt[br]at geoengineering is crazy. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 But there are scenarios where the world[br]looks at emissions and just sees 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in 10 years' time, let's say, that they[br]are just not coming down fast enough 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and that we are at risk 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 of several other liftoff events 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 where this train will just[br]get away from us, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and we will see temperature rises[br]of three, four, five, six, seven degrees 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and all of civilization is at risk. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Surely there is an approach[br]to geoengineering 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that could be modeled in a way[br]on the way that we approach medicine. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Like, for hundreds of years,[br]we don't really understand the human body, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 people would try interventions 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and some of them would work[br]and some of them wouldn't. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 No one says in medicine, you know, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 go in and take an all-or-nothing decision 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 on someone's life, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 but they do say, let's try some stuff. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 If an experiment can be reversible, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 if it's plausible in the first place, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 if there's reason to think[br]that it might work, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 we actually owe it to[br]the future health of humanity 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to try at least some types of tests[br]to see what could work. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 So small steps to see[br]whether, for example, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 seeding of something in the ocean 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 might create, in a nonthreatening way, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 carbon sinks. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Or, rather than filling the atmosphere[br]with sulfur dioxide, a smaller experiment 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that was not that big a deal[br]to see whether, cost-effectively, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 you could reduce[br]the temperature a little bit. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Surely that isn't completely crazy 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and is at least something[br]we should be thinking about 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in case these other measures don't work? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 AG: Well, there've already been[br]such experiments 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to seed the ocean 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to see if that can increase[br]the uptake of CO2. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And the experiments[br]were an unmitigated failure, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 as many predicted they would be. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 But that again 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 is the kind of approach 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that's very different 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 from putting tinfoil strips[br]in the atmosphere orbiting the earth. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 That was the way that solar[br]geoengineering proposal started. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Now they're focusing on chalk, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 so we have chalk dust all over everything. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 But more serious than that[br]is the fact that it might not reversible. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 CA: But, Al, that's the rhetoric response. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 The amount of dust that you need 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to drop by a degree or two 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 wouldn't result in chalk dust[br]over everything. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 It would be unbelievably, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 like, it would be less than the dust[br]that people experience everyday anyway. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I mean, I just -- 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 AG: First of all, I don't know[br]how you do a small experiment 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in the atmosphere, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and secondly, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 if we were to take that approach, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 we would have to steadily increase 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the amount of whatever[br]substance they decided. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 We'd have to increase it every single year, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and if we ever stopped, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 then there would be a sudden snapback, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 like the Picture of Dorian Gray,[br]that old book and movie, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 where suddenly all of the things[br]caught up with you at once. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 The fact that anyone is even[br]considering these approaches, Chris, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 is a measure of a feeling of desperation[br]that some have begun to feel, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 which I understand 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 but I don't think it should drive us[br]toward these reckless experiments. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And by the way, using your analogy[br]to experimental cancer treatments, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 for example, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 you usually get informed consent[br]from the patient. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Getting informed consent[br]from 7.8 billion people 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 who have no voice and no say, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 who are subject to the potentially[br]catastrophic consequences 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 of this whack-a-doodle proposal 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that somebody comes up with 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to try to rearrange[br]the entire Earth's atmosphere 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and hope and pretend[br]that it's going to cancel out, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the fact that we're putting[br]152 million tons 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 of heat-trapping, man-made[br]global warming pollution 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 into the sky every day. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 That's what's really insane. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 A scientist decades ago 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 compared it this way. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 He said, if you had two people[br]on a sinking boat 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and one of them says, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 "You know, we could probably use[br]some mirrors to signal to shore 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to get them to build 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 a sophisticated wave-generating machine 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that will cancel out[br]the rocking of the boat 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 by these guys in the back of the boat." 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Or you could get them[br]to stop rocking the boat. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And that's what we need to do.[br]We need to stop what's causing the crisis. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 CA: Yeah, that's a great story, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 but if the effort to stop the people[br]rocking in the back of the boat 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 is as complex as the scientific[br]proposal you just outlined, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 whereas the experiment to stop the waves 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 is actually as simple as telling[br]the people to stop rocking the boat, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that story changes. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And I think you're right that[br]the issue of informed consent 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 is a really challenging one, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 but, I mean, no one gave informed consent 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to do all of the other things[br]we're doing to the atmosphere. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And I agree that the moral hazard issue 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 is worrying, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that if we became dependent 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 on geoengineering 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and took away our efforts to do the rest, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that would be tragic. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 It just seems like, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I wish it was possible[br]to have a nuanced debate 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 of people saying, you know what, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 there's multiple dials[br]to a very complex problem. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 We're going to have to adjust[br]several of them very, very carefully 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and keep talking to each other. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Wouldn't that be a goal 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to just try and have[br]a more nuanced debate about this, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 rather than all of that geoengineering 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 can't work? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 AG: Well, I've said some of it, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 you know, the benign forms[br]that I've mentioned, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I'm not ruling those out, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 but blocking the Sun's rays[br]from the Earth, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 not only do you affect 7.8 billion people, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 you affect the plants 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and the animals 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and the ocean currents 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and the wind currents 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and natural processes 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that we're in danger[br]of disrupting even more. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 So techno-optimism 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 is something I've engaged in 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in the past, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 but to latch on to some[br]brand new technological solution 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to rework the entire Earth's[br]natural system 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 because somebody thinks he's clever enough 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to do it in a way[br]that precisely cancels out 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the consequences of using[br]the atmosphere as an open sewer 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 for heat-trapping manmade gases. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 It's much more important to stop using[br]the atmosphere as an open sewer. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 That's what the problem is. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 CA: All right, well we'll agree that that[br]is the most important thing, for sure, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and speaking of which, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 do you believe the world[br]needs carbon pricing, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and is there any prospect[br]for getting there? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 AG: Yes. Yes to both questions. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 For decades, almost every economist 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 who is asked about the climate crisis 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 says, "Well, we just need[br]to put a price on carbon." 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And I have certainly been[br]in favor of that approach. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 But it is daunting. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Nevertheless, there are 43 jurisdictions 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 around the world that already have[br]a price on carbon. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 We're seeing it in Europe. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 They finally straightened out[br]their carbon pricing mechanism. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 It's an emissions trading version of it. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 We have places that have put[br]a tax on carbon. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 That's the approach the economists prefer. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 China is beginning to implement[br]its national emissions trading program. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 California and quite a few other states[br]in the US are already doing it. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 It can be given back to people 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in a revenue-neutral way. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 But the opposition to it, Chris, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 which you've noted, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 is impressive enough 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that we do have to take other approaches, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and I would say most climate activists[br]are now saying, look, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 let's don't make the best[br]the enemy of the better. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 There are other ways to do this as well. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 We need every solution[br]we can rationally employ, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 including by regulation 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and often when the political difficulty[br]of a proposal becomes too difficult 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in a market-oriented approach, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the fallback is with regulation, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and it's been given a bad name, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 regulation, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 but many places are doing it. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I mentioned phasing out[br]internal combustion engines. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 That's an example. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 There are 160 cities in the US 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that have already by regulation ordered[br]that within a date certain 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 100 percent of all their electricity[br]will have to come from renewable sources. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And again, the market forces that[br]are driving the cost of renewable energy 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and sustainability solutions[br]ever downward, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that gives us the wind at our back. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 This is working in our favor. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 CA: I mean, the pushback on carbon pricing 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 often goes further from parts[br]of the environmental movement, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 which is to a pushback[br]on the role of business in general. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Business is actually, well,[br]capitalism is blamed 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 for the climate crisis 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 because of unrelenting growth, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to the point where many people[br]don't trust business 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to be part of the solution. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 The only way to go forward 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 is to regulate, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to force businesses to do the right thing. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Do you think that business[br]has to be part of the solution? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 AG: Well, definitely, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 because the allocation of capital[br]needed to solve this crisis 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 is greater than what[br]governments can handle. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And businesses are beginning, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 many businesses are beginning 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to play a very constructive role. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 They're getting a demand that they do so 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 from their customers,[br]from their investors, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 from their boards, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 from their executive teams,[br]from their families. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And by the way, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the rising generation is demanding[br]a brighter future, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and when CEOs interview[br]potential new hires, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 they find that the new hires[br]are interviewing them. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 They want to make a nice income, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 but they want to be able[br]to tell their family and friends 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and peers that they're doing[br]something more than just making money. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 One illustration of how[br]this new generation is changing, Chris: 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 there are 65 colleges in the US right now 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 where the College Young Republican Clubs 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 have joined together 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to jointly demand that[br]the Republican National Committee 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 change its policy on climate, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 lest they lose that entire generation. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 This is a global phenomenon. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 The Greta Generation 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 is now leading this 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in so many ways, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and if you look at the polling, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 again, the vast majority[br]of young Republicans 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 are demanding a change on climate policy. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 This is really a movement 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that is building still. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 CA: I was going to ask you about that, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 because one of the most painful things[br]over the last 20 years 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 has just been how climate[br]has been politicized, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 certainly in the US. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 You've probably felt yourself[br]at the heart of that a lot of the time, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 with people attacking you personally[br]in the most merciless 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and unfair ways, often. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Do you really see signs 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that that might be changing, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 led by the next generation? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 AG: Yeah, there's no question about it. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I don't want to rely on polls too much. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I've mentioned them already. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 But there was a new one that came out 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that looked at the wavering[br]Trump supporters, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 those who supported him[br]strongly in the past 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and want to do so again. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 The number one issue,[br]surprisingly to some, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that is giving them pause, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 is the craziness of President Trump[br]and his administration on climate. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 We're seeing big majorities[br]of the Republican Party overall 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 saying that they're ready 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to start exploring some real solutions[br]to the climate crisis. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I think that we're really getting there,[br]no question about it. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 CA: I mean, you've been[br]the figurehead for raising this issue, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and you happen to be a Democrat. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Is there anything 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that you can personally do 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to open the tent, to welcome people, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to try and say this is[br]beyond politics, dear friends? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 AG: Yeah. Well, I've tried[br]all of those things, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and maybe it's made a little[br]positive difference. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I've worked with[br]the Republicans extensively. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And, you know, well after[br]I left the White House, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I had Newt Gingrich and Pat Robertson 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and other prominent Republicans 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 appear on national TV ads with me 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 saying we've got to solve[br]the climate crisis. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 But the petroleum industry 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 has really double down 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in forcing discipline[br]within the Republican Party. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I mean, look at the attacks[br]they've launched against the Pope 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 when he came out with his encyclical 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and was demonized, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 not by all for sure, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 but there were hawks 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in the anti-climate movement 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 who immediately started[br]training their guns on Pope Francis, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and there are many other examples. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 They enforce discipline 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and try to make it a partisan issue, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 even as Democrats reach out 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and try to make it bipartisan. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I totally agree with you[br]that it should not be a partisan issue. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 It didn't use to be, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 but it's been artificially[br]weaponized as an issue. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 CA: I mean, the CEOs[br]of oil companies also have kids 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 who are talking to them. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 It feels like some of them are moving 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and are trying to invest 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and trying to find ways[br]of being part of the future. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Do you see signs of that? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 AG: Yeah. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I think that business leaders,[br]including in the oil and gas companies, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 are hearing from their families. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 They're hearing from the friends. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 They're hearing from their employees. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And, by the way, we've seen[br]in the tech industry 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 some mass walkouts by employees 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 who are demanding[br]that some of the tech companies 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 do more and get serious. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I'm so proud of Apple. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Forgive me for parenthetically[br]praising Apple. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 You know I'm on the board,[br]but I'm such a big fan of Tim Cook 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and my colleagues at Apple. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 It's an example of a tech company 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that's really doing fantastic things. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And there's some others as well. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 There are others in many industries. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 But the pressures on[br]the oil and gas companies 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 are quite extraordinary. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 You know, BP just wrote down[br]12 and a half billion dollars' worth 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 of oil and gas assets 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and said that they're never[br]going to see the light of day. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Two thirds of the fossil fuels[br]that have already been discovered 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 cannot be burned and will not be burned. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And so that's a big economic risk 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to the global economy, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 like the subprime mortgage crisis. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 We've got 22 trillion dollars[br]of subprime carbon assets 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and just yesterday[br]there was a major report 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that the fracking industry in the US 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 is seeing now a wave of bankruptcies 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 because the price[br]of the fracked gas and oil 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 has fallen below levels[br]that make them economic. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 CA: Is the shorthand[br]of what's happened there 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 is that electric cars 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and electric technologies[br]and solar and so forth 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 have helped drive down the price of oil 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to the point where[br]huge amounts of the reserves 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 just can't be developed profitably? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 AG: Yes, that's it. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 That's mainly it. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 The projections for energy sources[br]in the next several years 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 uniffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff