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Chris Anderson: Welcome.

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So look, just six months ago,

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it seems a lifetime ago,
but it really was just six months ago,

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climate seemed to be on the lips
of every thinking person on the planet.

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Recent events seem to have swept it
all away from our attention.

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How worried are you about that?

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Al Gore: Well, first of all Chris,
thank you so much for inviting me

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to have this conversation.

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People are reacting differently

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to the climate crisis

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in the midst of these
other great challenges

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that have taken over our awareness,

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appropriately.

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One reason is something
that you mentioned.

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People get the fact that when scientists

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are warning us

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in ever more dire terms

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and setting their hair
on fire, so to speak,

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it's best to listen
to what they're saying,

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and I think that lesson
has begun to sink in in a new way.

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Another similarity, by the way,

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is that the climate crisis,

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like the COVID-19 pandemic,

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has revealed in a new way

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the shocking injustices and inequalities

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and disparities that affect
communities of color

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and low-income communities.

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There are differences.

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The climate crisis has effects
that are not measured in years,

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as the pandemic is,

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but consequences that are measured
in centuries and even longer.

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And the other difference

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is that instead of depressing
economic activity

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to deal with the climate crisis,

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as nations around the world
have had to do with COVID-19,

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we have the opportunity to create
tens of millions of new jobs.

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That sounds like a political phrasing,

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but it's literally true.

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For the last five years,

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the fastest-growing job in the US
has been solar installer.

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The second fastest has been
wind turbine technician.

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And the Oxford Review of Economics

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just a few weeks ago

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pointed the way to
a very jobs-rich recovery

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if we emphasize renewable energy
and sustainability technology.

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So I think we are
crossing a tipping point,

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and you need only look
at the recovery plans

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that are being presented
in nations around the world

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to see that they're very much
focused on a green recovery.

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CA: I mean, one obvious impact
of the pandemic

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is that it's brought the world's economy
to a shuddering halt,

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thereby reducing greenhouse gas emissions.

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I mean, how big an effect has that been,

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and is it unambiguously good news?

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AG: Well, it's a little bit
of an illusion, Chris,

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and you need only look back
to the Great Recession in 2008 and '9,

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where there was a one percent
decline in emissions,

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but then in 2010

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they came roaring back during the recovery

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with a four percent increase.

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The latest estimates are that emissions
will go down by at least five percent

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during this induced coma,

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as the economist Paul Krugman
perceptively described it,

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but whether it goes back the way it did
after the Great Recession

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is in part up to us,

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and if these green recovery plans
are actually implemented,

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and I know many countries
are determined to implement them,

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then we need not repeat that pattern.

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After all, this whole process is occurring

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during a period when the cost
of renewable energy and electric vehicles,

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batteries, and a range of other
sustainability approaches

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are continuing to fall in price,

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and they're becoming
much more competitive.

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Just a quick reference
to how fast this is:

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five years ago, electricity
from solar and wind

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was cheaper than electricity
from fossil fuels

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in only one percent of the world.

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This year, it's cheaper
in two thirds of the world,

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and five years from now

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it will be cheaper in virtually
100 percent of the world.

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EVs will be cost-competitive
within two years,

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and then will continue falling in price.

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And so there are changes underway

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that could interrupt the pattern
we saw after the Great Recession.

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CA: The reason those pricing differentials
happen in different parts of the world

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is obviously just because

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there's different amounts
of sunshine and wind there

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and different building costs and so forth.

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AG: Well, yes, and government policies
also count for a lot.

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The world is continuing
to subsidize fossil fuels

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at a ridiculous amount,

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moreso may developing countries
than in the US and developed countries,

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but it's subsidized here as well.

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But everywhere in the world,

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wind and solar will be cheaper
as a source of electricity

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than fossil fuels within a few years.

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CA: I think I've heard it said
that the fall in emissions

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caused the pandemic

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isn't that much more

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than the fall that we will need
every single year

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if we're to meet emissions targets.

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Is that true, and, if so,

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doesn't that seem impossibly daunting?

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AG: It does seem daunting,
but first look at the number.

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That number came from a study
a little over a year ago

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released by the IPCC

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as to what it would take

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to keep the Earth's temperatures

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from increasing more than
1.5 degrees Celsius.

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And yes, the annual reductions
would be significant,

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on the order of what we've seen
with the pandemic.

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And yes, that does seem daunting.

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However, we do have the opportunity
to make some fairly dramatic changes,

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and the plan is not a mystery.

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You start with the two sectors that are
closest to an effective transition --

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electricity generation, as I mentioned,

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and last year, 2019,

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if you look at all of the new
electricity generation built

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all around the world,

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72 percent of it was from solar and wind.

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And already, without the continuing
subsidies for fossil fuels,

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we would see many more of these plants

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being shut down.

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There are some new
fossil plants being built,

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but many more are being shut down.

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And where transportation is concerned,

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the second sector ready to go,

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in addition to the cheaper prices
for EVs that I made reference to before,

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there are some 45 jurisdictions
around the world --

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national, regional, and municipal --

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where laws have been passed
beginning a phaseout

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of internal combustion engines.

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Even India said that by 2030,
less than 10 years from now,

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it will be illegal to sell
any new internal combustion engines

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in India.

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There are many other examples.

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So the past small reductions

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may not be an accurate guide

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to the kind we can achieve

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with serious national plans

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and a focused global effort.

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CA: So help us understand
just the big picture here, Al.

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I think before the pandemic,

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the world was emitting

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about 55 gigatons of what
they call CO2 equivalent,

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so that includes other greenhouse gases

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like methane dialed up
to be the equivalent of CO2.

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And am I right in saying that the IPCC,

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which is the global
organization of scientists,

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is recommending that
the only way to fix this crisis

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is to get that number from 55 to zero

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by 2050 at the very latest,

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and that even then that there's a chance
that we will end up with temperature rises

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more like two degrees Celsius
rather than 1.5.

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I mean, is that approximately
the big picture

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of what the IPCC is recommending?

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AG: That's correct.

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The global goal established
in the Paris Conference

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is to get to net zero on a global basis

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by 2050,

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and many people quickly add

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that that really means a 45
to 50 percent reduction by 2030

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to make that pathway

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to net zero feasible.

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CA: And that kind of timeline
is the kind of timeline

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where people can't even imagine.

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It's just hard to think
of policy over 30 years.

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So that's actually a very good shorthand,

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that humanity's task is to cut
emissions in half by 2030,

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approximately speaking,

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which I think boils down to

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about a seven or eight percent
reduction a year, something like that,

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if I'm not wrong.

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AG: Not quite. Not quite that large,

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but close, yes.

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CA: So it is something like the effect
that we've experienced this year

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maybe be necessary.

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This year we've done it
by basically shutting down the economy.

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You're talking about a way of doing it
over the coming years

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that actually gives some
economic growth and new jobs.

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So talk more about that.

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You've referred to
changing our energy sources,

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changing how we transport.

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If we did those things,

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how much of the problem does that solve?

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AG: Well, we can get to,

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well, in addition to doing
the two sectors that I mentioned,

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we also have to deal with manufacturing
and all the use cases

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that require temperatures
to a thousand degrees Celsius,

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and there are solutions there as well.

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I'll come back and mention an exciting one
that Germany has just embarked upon.

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We also have to tackle
regenerative agriculture.

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There is the opportunity

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to sequester a great deal of carbon

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in topsoils around the world

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by changing the agricultural techniques.

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There is a farmer-led movement to do that.

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We need to also retrofit buildings.

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We need to change our management
of forests and the ocean.

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But let me just mention
two things briefly.

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First of all, the high
temperature use cases.

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Angela Merkel, just 10 days ago,

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with the leadership of
her Minister Peter Altmaier,

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who is a good friend
and a great public servant,

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have just embarked on
a green hydrogen strategy

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to make hydrogen

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with zero marginal cost renewable energy.

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And just a word on that, Chris,

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you've heard about the intermittency
of wind and solar.

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Solar doesn't produce electricity
when the sun's not shining

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and wind doesn't
when the wind's not blowing.

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But batteries are getting better,

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and these technologies are becoming
much more efficient and powerful,

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so that for an increasing
number of hours of each day,

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they're producing often way more
electricity than can be used.

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So what to do with it?

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The marginal cost for
the next kilowatt-hour is zero.

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So all of a sudden,

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the very energy-intensive process
of cracking hydrogen from water

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becomes economically feasible,

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and it can be substituted

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for coal and gas,

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and that's already being done.

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There's a Swedish company
already making steel

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with green hydrogen,

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and as I say Germany has just embarked
on a major new initiative to do that.

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I think they're pointing the way
for the rest of the world.

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Now, where building retrofits
are concerned, just a moment on this,

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because about 20 to 25 percent
of the global warming pollution

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in the world and in the US

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comes from inefficient buildings

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that were constructed

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by companies and individuals

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who were trying to be competitive
in the marketplace

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and keep their margins acceptably high

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and thereby skimping on insulation
and the right windows

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and LEDs and the rest.

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And yet the person or company
that buys that building

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or leases that building,

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they want their monthly
utility bills much lower.

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So there are now ways

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to close that so-called
agent-principal divide,

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the differing incentives
for the building and occupier,

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and we can retrofit buildings with
a program that literally pays for itself

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over three to five years,

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and we could put tens of millions
of people to work

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in jobs that by definition
cannot be outsourced

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because they exist
in every single community.

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And we really ought to get serious
about doing this,

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because we're going to need all those jobs

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to get sustainable prosperity
in the aftermath of this pandemic.

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CA: Just coming back
to the hydrogen economy

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that you referred to there,

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when some people hear that,

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they think, oh, are you talking
about hydrogen-fueled cars?

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And they've heard that that
probably won't be a winning strategy.

257
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But you're thinking much more
broadly than that, I think,

258
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that it's not just hydrogen
as a kind of storage mechanism

259
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to act as a buffer for renewable energy,

260
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but also hydrogen could be essential

261
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
for some of the other processes
in the economy like making steel,

262
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
making cement

263
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that are fundamentally
carbon-intensive processes right now

264
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but could be transformed if we had
much cheaper sources of hydrogen.

265
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Is that right?

266
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
AG: Yes, I was always skeptical
about hydrogen, Chris,

267
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
principally because it's been so expensive

268
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to make it,

269
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to crack it out of water, as they say.

270
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But the game-changer has been
the incredible abundance

271
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
of solar and wind electricity
in volumes and amounts

272
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that people didn't expect,

273
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and all of a sudden
it's cheap enough to use

274
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
for these very energy-intensive processes

275
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
like creating green hydrogen.

276
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I'm still a bit skeptical
about using it in vehicles.

277
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Toyota's been betting on that for 25 years
and hasn't really worked for them.

278
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Never say never, maybe it will,

279
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but I think it's most useful for these
high-temperature industrial processes,

280
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and we already have a pathway
for decarbonizing transportation

281
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
with electricity

282
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that's working extremely well.

283
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Tesla's going to be soon the most valuable
automobile company in the world,

284
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
already in the US,

285
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and they're about to overtake Toyota.

286
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
There is now a semi truck company

287
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that's been stood up by Tesla

288
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and another that is going to be a hybrid
with electricity and green hydrogen,

289
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
so we'll see whether or not
they can make it work in that application.

290
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But I think electricity
is preferable for cars and trucks.

291
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
CA: We're coming to some
community questions in a minute.

292
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Let me ask you, though, about nuclear.

293
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Some environmentalists
believe that nuclear,

294
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
or maybe new generation nuclear power

295
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is an essential part of the equation

296
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
if we're to get to a truly clean future,

297
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
a clean energy future.

298
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Are you still pretty skeptical
on nuclear, Al?

299
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
AG: Well, the market's skeptical
about it, Chris.

300
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It's been a crushing disappointment
for me and for so many.

301
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I used to represent Oak Ridge,
where nuclear energy began,

302
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and when I was a young congressman

303
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I was a booster.

304
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I was very enthusiastic about it.

305
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But the cost overruns

306
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and the problems in building these plants

307
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
have become so severe

308
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that utilities just don't have
an appetite for them.

309
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It's become the most expensive
source of electricity.

310
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Now, let me hasten to add
that there are some older nuclear reactors

311
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that have more useful time
that could be added on to their lifetimes,

312
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and like a lot of environmentalists
I've come to the view

313
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that if they can be determined to be safe,

314
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
they should be allowed to continue
operating for a time.

315
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But where new nuclear
power plants are concerned,

316
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
here's a way to look at it.

317
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
If you are -- you've been a CEO, Chris.

318
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
If you were the CEO of --
I guess you still are.

319
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
If you were the CEO
of an electric utility,

320
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and you told your executive team,

321
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
"I want to build a nuclear power plant,"

322
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
two of the first questions
you would ask are, number one,

323
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
how much will it cost?

324
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And there's not a single
engineering consulting firm

325
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that I've been able to find
anywhere in the world

326
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that will put their name on an opinion

327
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
giving you a cost estimate.

328
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
They just don't know.

329
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
A second question you would ask is,
how long will it take to build it

330
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
so we can start selling the electricity?

331
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And again the answer you will get is,

332
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
we have no idea.

333
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So if you don't know
how much it's going to cost,

334
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and you don't know
when it's going to be finished,

335
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and you already know that
the electricity is more expensive

336
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
than the alternate ways to produce it,

337
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that's going to be a little discouraging,

338
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and in fact that's been the case
for utilities around the world.

339
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
CA: OK.

340
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So there's definitely
an interesting debate there,

341
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but we're going to come on
to some community questions.

342
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Let's have the first
of those questions up please.

343
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
From Prosanta Chakrbarty:

344
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
"People who are skeptical
of COVID and of climate change

345
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
seem to be skeptical
of science in general.

346
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It may be that the singular
message from scientists

347
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
gets diluted and convoluted.

348
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
How do we fix that?

349
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
AG: Yeah, that's
a great question, Prosanta.

350
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Boy, I'm trying to put this
succinctly and shortly.

351
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I think that there has been

352
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
a feeling that experts in general

353
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
have kind of let the US down,

354
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and that feeling is much more pronounced
in the US than in most other countries.

355
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And I think that considered opinion

356
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
of what we call experts

357
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
has been diluted over the last few decades

358
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
by the unhealthy dominance
of big money in our political system

359
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
which has found ways
to really twist economic policy

360
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to benefit elites,

361
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and this sounds a little radical

362
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but it's actually what has happened.

363
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And we have gone for more than 40 years

364
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
without any meaningful increase
in middle income pay,

365
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and where the injustice experienced
by African Americans

366
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and other communities
of color are concerned,

367
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the differential in pay between
African Americans and majority Americans

368
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is the same as it was in 1968,

369
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and the family wealth,

370
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the net worth,

371
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
it takes 11 and a half so-called
"typical" African American families

372
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to make up the net worth of one
so-called "typical" White American family.

373
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And you look at the soaring incomes

374
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in the top one

375
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
or the top one tenth of one percent,

376
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and people say, "Wait a minute.

377
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Whoever the experts were
that designed these policies,

378
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
they haven't been doing
a good job for me."

379
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
A final point, Chris,

380
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
there has been an assault on reason.

381
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
There has been a war against truth.

382
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
There has been a strategy,

383
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
maybe it was best known as a strategy
decades ago by the tobacco companies

384
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
who hired actors and dressed them up
as doctors to falsely reassure people

385
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that there were no health consequences

386
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
from smoking cigarettes,

387
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and a hundred million people
died as a result.

388
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
That same strategy of diminishing
the significance of truth,

389
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
diminishing, as someone said,
the authority of knowledge,

390
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I think that has made it open season

391
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
on any inconvenient truth --

392
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
forgive another buzz phrase --

393
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but it is apt.

394
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
We cannot abandon our devotion
to the best available evidence

395
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
tested in reasoned discourse

396
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and used as the basis

397
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
for the best policies we can form.

398
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
CA: Is it possible, Al,
that one consequence of the pandemic

399
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is actually a growing number of people

400
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
have revisited their opinions

401
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
on scientists?

402
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I mean, you've had a chance
in the last few months to say,

403
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
do I trust my political leader
or do I trust this scientist

404
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in terms of what they're saying

405
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
about this virus.

406
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Maybe lessons from that
could be carried forward?

407
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
AG: Well, you know, I think
if the polling is accurate,

408
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
people do trust their doctors
a lot more than some of the politicians

409
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
who seem to have a vested interest
in pretending the pandemic isn't real.

410
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And if you look at the incredible bust

411
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
at President Trump's rally in Tulsa,

412
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
a stadium of 19,000 people

413
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
with less than one third filled,

414
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
according to the fire marshal,

415
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
you saw all the empty seats

416
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
if you saw the news clips,

417
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
so even the most loyal Trump supporters

418
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
must have decided to trust their doctors

419
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and the medical advice

420
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
rather than Dr. Donald Trump.

421
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
CA: With a little help from
the TikTok generation, per chance.

422
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
AG: Well, but that didn't
affect the turnout.

423
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
What they did, very cleverly,
and I'm cheering them on,

424
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
what they did was affect
the Trump White House's expectations.

425
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
They're the reason why he went out
a couple days beforehand

426
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and said, "We've had
a million people sign up."

427
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But they didn't prevent,

428
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
they didn't take seats that others
could have otherwise taken.

429
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
They didn't affect the turnout,
just the expectations.

430
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
CA: OK, let's have our next question here.

431
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
"Are you concerned the world will rush
back to the use of the private car

432
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
out of fear of using
shared public transportation?"

433
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
AG: Well, that could actually be
one of the consequences, absolutely.

434
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Now, the trends on mass transit

435
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
were already inching
in the wrong direction

436
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
because of Uber and Lyft

437
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and the ridesharing services,

438
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and if autonomy ever reaches the goals
that its advocates have hoped for

439
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
then that may also have a similar effect.

440
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But there's no doubt that some people

441
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
are gonna be probably a little more
reluctant to take mass transportation

442
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
until the fear of this pandemic

443
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is well and truly gone.

444
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
CA: Yeah. Might need
a vaccine on that one.

445
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
AG: (Laughs) Yeah.

446
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
CA: Next question.

447
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Sonaar Luthra, thank you
for this question from LA.

448
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
"Given the temperature rise
in the Arctic this past week,

449
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
seems like the rate
we are losing our carbon sinks

450
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
like permafrost or forests is accelerating
faster than we predicted.

451
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Are our models too focused
on human emissions?"

452
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Interesting question.

453
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
AG: Well, the models are focused
on the factors that have led

454
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to these incredible temperature spikes

455
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in the north of the Arctic Circle.

456
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
They were predicted,
they have been predicted,

457
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and one of the reasons for it

458
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is that as the snow and ice cover melts,

459
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the sun's incoming rays

460
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
are no longer reflected back into space
at a 90 percent rate,

461
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and instead when they fall on
the dark tundra or the dark ocean,

462
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
they're absorbed at a 90 percent rate.

463
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So that's a magnifier

464
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
of the warming in the Arctic,

465
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and this has been predicted.

466
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
There are a number of other consequences
that are also in the models,

467
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but some of them
may have to be recalibrated.

468
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
The scientists are freshly concerned

469
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that the emissions of both CO2 and methane

470
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
from the thawing tundra

471
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
could be larger than they
had hoped they would be.

472
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
There's also just been a brand new study.

473
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I won't spend time on this,

474
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
because it deals with a kind of geeky term
called "climate sensitivity,"

475
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
which has been a factor in the models
with large error bars

476
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
because it's so hard to pin down.

477
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But the latest evidence
indicates worryingly

478
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that the sensitivity may be
greater than they had thought,

479
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and we will have
an even more daunting task.

480
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
That shouldn't discourage us.

481
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I truly believe that once
we cross this tipping point,

482
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and I do believe we're doing it now,

483
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
as I've said,

484
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
then I think we're going to find

485
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
a lot of ways to speed up
the emissions reductions.

486
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
CA: We'll take one more question
from the community.

487
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Haha. "Geoengineering
is making extraordinary progress.

488
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Exxon is investing in technology
from Global Thermostat

489
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that seems promising.

490
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
What do you think of these air and water
carbon capture technologies?"

491
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Stephen Petranek.

492
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
AG: Yeah.

493
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Well, you and I have talked
about this before, Chris.

494
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I've been strongly opposed

495
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to conducting an unplanned
global experiment

496
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that could go wildly wrong

497
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and most are really
scared of that approach.

498
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
However, the term geoengineering

499
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is a nuanced term that covers a lot.

500
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
If you want to paint roofs white
to reflect more energy

501
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
from the cityscapes,

502
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that's not going to bring a danger
of a runaway effect,

503
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and there are some other things
that are loosely called "geoengineering"

504
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
like that which are fine.

505
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But the idea of blocking out
the sun's rays,

506
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that's insane in my opinion.

507
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Turns out plants need sunlight
for photosynthesis

508
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and solar panels need sunlight

509
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
for producing electricity
from the sun's rays.

510
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And the consequences of changing
everything we know

511
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and pretending that the consequences
are going to precisely cancel out

512
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the unplanned experiment of global warming
that we already have underway,

513
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
you know, there are
glitches in our thinking.

514
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
One of them is called
the single solution bias,

515
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and there are people
who just have a hunger to say,

516
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
well, that one solution, we just need
to latch on to that and do that,

517
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and do that, and damn the consequences.

518
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Well, it's nuts.

519
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
CA: But let me push back on this
just a little bit.

520
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So let's say that we agree
that a single solution

521
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
all-or-nothing attempt
at geoengineering is crazy.

522
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But there are scenarios where the world
looks at emissions and just sees

523
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in 10 years' time, let's say, that they
are just not coming down fast enough

524
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and that we are at risk

525
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
of several other liftoff events

526
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
where this train will just
get away from us,

527
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and we will see temperature rises
of three, four, five, six, seven degrees

528
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and all of civilization is at risk.

529
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Surely there is an approach
to geoengineering

530
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that could be modeled in a way
on the way that we approach medicine.

531
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Like, for hundreds of years,
we don't really understand the human body,

532
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
people would try interventions

533
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and some of them would work
and some of them wouldn't.

534
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
No one says in medicine, you know,

535
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
go in and take an all-or-nothing decision

536
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
on someone's life,

537
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but they do say, let's try some stuff.

538
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
If an experiment can be reversible,

539
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
if it's plausible in the first place,

540
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
if there's reason to think
that it might work,

541
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
we actually owe it to
the future health of humanity

542
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to try at least some types of tests
to see what could work.

543
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So small steps to see
whether, for example,

544
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
seeding of something in the ocean

545
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
might create, in a nonthreatening way,

546
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
carbon sinks.

547
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Or, rather than filling the atmosphere
with sulfur dioxide, a smaller experiment

548
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that was not that big a deal
to see whether, cost-effectively,

549
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
you could reduce
the temperature a little bit.

550
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Surely that isn't completely crazy

551
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and is at least something
we should be thinking about

552
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in case these other measures don't work?

553
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
AG: Well, there've already been
such experiments

554
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to seed the ocean

555
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to see if that can increase
the uptake of CO2.

556
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And the experiments
were an unmitigated failure,

557
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
as many predicted they would be.

558
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But that again

559
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is the kind of approach

560
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that's very different

561
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
from putting tinfoil strips
in the atmosphere orbiting the earth.

562
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
That was the way that solar
geoengineering proposal started.

563
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Now they're focusing on chalk,

564
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
so we have chalk dust all over everything.

565
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But more serious than that
is the fact that it might not reversible.

566
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
CA: But, Al, that's the rhetoric response.

567
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
The amount of dust that you need

568
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to drop by a degree or two

569
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
wouldn't result in chalk dust
over everything.

570
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It would be unbelievably,

571
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
like, it would be less than the dust
that people experience everyday anyway.

572
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I mean, I just --

573
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
AG: First of all, I don't know
how you do a small experiment

574
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in the atmosphere,

575
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and secondly,

576
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
if we were to take that approach,

577
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
we would have to steadily increase

578
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the amount of whatever
substance they decided.

579
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
We'd have to increase it every single year,

580
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and if we ever stopped,

581
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
then there would be a sudden snapback,

582
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
like the Picture of Dorian Gray,
that old book and movie,

583
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
where suddenly all of the things
caught up with you at once.

584
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
The fact that anyone is even
considering these approaches, Chris,

585
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is a measure of a feeling of desperation
that some have begun to feel,

586
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
which I understand

587
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but I don't think it should drive us
toward these reckless experiments.

588
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And by the way, using your analogy
to experimental cancer treatments,

589
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
for example,

590
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
you usually get informed consent
from the patient.

591
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Getting informed consent
from 7.8 billion people

592
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
who have no voice and no say,

593
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
who are subject to the potentially
catastrophic consequences

594
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
of this whack-a-doodle proposal

595
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that somebody comes up with

596
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to try to rearrange
the entire Earth's atmosphere

597
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and hope and pretend
that it's going to cancel out,

598
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the fact that we're putting
152 million tons

599
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
of heat-trapping, man-made
global warming pollution

600
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
into the sky every day.

601
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
That's what's really insane.

602
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
A scientist decades ago

603
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
compared it this way.

604
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
He said, if you had two people
on a sinking boat

605
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and one of them says,

606
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
"You know, we could probably use
some mirrors to signal to shore

607
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to get them to build

608
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
a sophisticated wave-generating machine

609
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that will cancel out
the rocking of the boat

610
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
by these guys in the back of the boat."

611
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Or you could get them
to stop rocking the boat.

612
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And that's what we need to do.
We need to stop what's causing the crisis.

613
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
CA: Yeah, that's a great story,

614
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but if the effort to stop the people
rocking in the back of the boat

615
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is as complex as the scientific
proposal you just outlined,

616
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
whereas the experiment to stop the waves

617
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is actually as simple as telling
the people to stop rocking the boat,

618
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that story changes.

619
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And I think you're right that
the issue of informed consent

620
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is a really challenging one,

621
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but, I mean, no one gave informed consent

622
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to do all of the other things
we're doing to the atmosphere.

623
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And I agree that the moral hazard issue

624
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is worrying,

625
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that if we became dependent

626
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
on geoengineering

627
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and took away our efforts to do the rest,

628
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that would be tragic.

629
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It just seems like,

630
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I wish it was possible
to have a nuanced debate

631
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
of people saying, you know what,

632
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
there's multiple dials
to a very complex problem.

633
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
We're going to have to adjust
several of them very, very carefully

634
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and keep talking to each other.

635
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Wouldn't that be a goal

636
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to just try and have
a more nuanced debate about this,

637
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
rather than all of that geoengineering

638
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
can't work?

639
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
AG: Well, I've said some of it,

640
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
you know, the benign forms
that I've mentioned,

641
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I'm not ruling those out,

642
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but blocking the Sun's rays
from the Earth,

643
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
not only do you affect 7.8 billion people,

644
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
you affect the plants

645
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and the animals

646
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and the ocean currents

647
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and the wind currents

648
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and natural processes

649
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that we're in danger
of disrupting even more.

650
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So techno-optimism

651
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is something I've engaged in

652
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in the past,

653
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but to latch on to some
brand new technological solution

654
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to rework the entire Earth's
natural system

655
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
because somebody thinks he's clever enough

656
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to do it in a way
that precisely cancels out

657
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the consequences of using
the atmosphere as an open sewer

658
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
for heat-trapping manmade gases.

659
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It's much more important to stop using
the atmosphere as an open sewer.

660
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
That's what the problem is.

661
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
CA: All right, well we'll agree that that
is the most important thing, for sure,

662
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and speaking of which,

663
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
do you believe the world
needs carbon pricing,

664
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and is there any prospect
for getting there?

665
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
AG: Yes. Yes to both questions.

666
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
For decades, almost every economist

667
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
who is asked about the climate crisis

668
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
says, "Well, we just need
to put a price on carbon."

669
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And I have certainly been
in favor of that approach.

670
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But it is daunting.

671
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Nevertheless, there are 43 jurisdictions

672
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
around the world that already have
a price on carbon.

673
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
We're seeing it in Europe.

674
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
They finally straightened out
their carbon pricing mechanism.

675
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It's an emissions trading version of it.

676
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
We have places that have put
a tax on carbon.

677
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
That's the approach the economists prefer.

678
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
China is beginning to implement
its national emissions trading program.

679
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
California and quite a few other states
in the US are already doing it.

680
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It can be given back to people

681
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in a revenue-neutral way.

682
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But the opposition to it, Chris,

683
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
which you've noted,

684
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is impressive enough

685
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that we do have to take other approaches,

686
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and I would say most climate activists
are now saying, look,

687
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
let's don't make the best
the enemy of the better.

688
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
There are other ways to do this as well.

689
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
We need every solution
we can rationally employ,

690
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
including by regulation

691
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and often when the political difficulty
of a proposal becomes too difficult

692
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in a market-oriented approach,

693
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the fallback is with regulation,

694
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and it's been given a bad name,

695
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
regulation,

696
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but many places are doing it.

697
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I mentioned phasing out
internal combustion engines.

698
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
That's an example.

699
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
There are 160 cities in the US

700
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that have already by regulation ordered
that within a date certain

701
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
100 percent of all their electricity
will have to come from renewable sources.

702
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And again, the market forces that
are driving the cost of renewable energy

703
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and sustainability solutions
ever downward,

704
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that gives us the wind at our back.

705
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
This is working in our favor.

706
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
CA: I mean, the pushback on carbon pricing

707
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
often goes further from parts
of the environmental movement,

708
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
which is to a pushback
on the role of business in general.

709
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Business is actually, well,
capitalism is blamed

710
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
for the climate crisis

711
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
because of unrelenting growth,

712
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to the point where many people
don't trust business

713
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to be part of the solution.

714
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
The only way to go forward

715
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is to regulate,

716
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to force businesses to do the right thing.

717
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Do you think that business
has to be part of the solution?

718
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
AG: Well, definitely,

719
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
because the allocation of capital
needed to solve this crisis

720
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is greater than what
governments can handle.

721
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And businesses are beginning,

722
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
many businesses are beginning

723
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to play a very constructive role.

724
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
They're getting a demand that they do so

725
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
from their customers,
from their investors,

726
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
from their boards,

727
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
from their executive teams,
from their families.

728
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And by the way,

729
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the rising generation is demanding
a brighter future,

730
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and when CEOs interview
potential new hires,

731
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
they find that the new hires
are interviewing them.

732
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
They want to make a nice income,

733
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but they want to be able
to tell their family and friends

734
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and peers that they're doing
something more than just making money.

735
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
One illustration of how
this new generation is changing, Chris:

736
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
there are 65 colleges in the US right now

737
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
where the College Young Republican Clubs

738
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
have joined together

739
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to jointly demand that
the Republican National Committee

740
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
change its policy on climate,

741
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
lest they lose that entire generation.

742
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
This is a global phenomenon.

743
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
The Greta Generation

744
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is now leading this

745
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in so many ways,

746
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and if you look at the polling,

747
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
again, the vast majority
of young Republicans

748
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
are demanding a change on climate policy.

749
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
This is really a movement

750
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that is building still.

751
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
CA: I was going to ask you about that,

752
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
because one of the most painful things
over the last 20 years

753
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
has just been how climate
has been politicized,

754
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
certainly in the US.

755
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
You've probably felt yourself
at the heart of that a lot of the time,

756
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
with people attacking you personally
in the most merciless

757
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and unfair ways, often.

758
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Do you really see signs

759
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that that might be changing,

760
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
led by the next generation?

761
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
AG: Yeah, there's no question about it.

762
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I don't want to rely on polls too much.

763
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I've mentioned them already.

764
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But there was a new one that came out

765
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that looked at the wavering
Trump supporters,

766
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
those who supported him
strongly in the past

767
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and want to do so again.

768
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
The number one issue,
surprisingly to some,

769
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that is giving them pause,

770
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is the craziness of President Trump
and his administration on climate.

771
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
We're seeing big majorities
of the Republican Party overall

772
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
saying that they're ready

773
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to start exploring some real solutions
to the climate crisis.

774
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I think that we're really getting there,
no question about it.

775
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
CA: I mean, you've been
the figurehead for raising this issue,

776
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and you happen to be a Democrat.

777
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Is there anything

778
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that you can personally do

779
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to open the tent, to welcome people,

780
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to try and say this is
beyond politics, dear friends?

781
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
AG: Yeah. Well, I've tried
all of those things,

782
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and maybe it's made a little
positive difference.

783
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I've worked with
the Republicans extensively.

784
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And, you know, well after
I left the White House,

785
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I had Newt Gingrich and Pat Robertson

786
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and other prominent Republicans

787
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
appear on national TV ads with me

788
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
saying we've got to solve
the climate crisis.

789
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But the petroleum industry

790
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
has really double down

791
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in forcing discipline
within the Republican Party.

792
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I mean, look at the attacks
they've launched against the Pope

793
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
when he came out with his encyclical

794
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and was demonized,

795
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
not by all for sure,

796
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but there were hawks

797
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in the anti-climate movement

798
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
who immediately started
training their guns on Pope Francis,

799
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and there are many other examples.

800
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
They enforce discipline

801
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and try to make it a partisan issue,

802
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
even as Democrats reach out

803
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and try to make it bipartisan.

804
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I totally agree with you
that it should not be a partisan issue.

805
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It didn't use to be,

806
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but it's been artificially
weaponized as an issue.

807
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
CA: I mean, the CEOs
of oil companies also have kids.