This is radio.
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This week on Radio Eco shark.
We're going to the end of the earth.
It's a feature-length interview about new science the chills
Antarctica is melting.
I guarantee you will read headlines and see amazing video news
from the science were discovering this week sea levels will rise
around the planet for centuries reshaping the coastlines and
civilization,
then we'll finish up with the return of Marjorie Wilde craft with
more tips on growing your own groceries.
It's all food for thought and action,
I'm Alex Smith,
the journey begins.
There's a lot of action in Antarctica and that can bring changes
all over the world.
Here to discuss recent sciences Dr. Roland C warmer.
He is a researcher with the Antarctic climate and ecosystems
Cooperative Research Centre at the University of Tasmania Tasmania
is the closest Australian state to Antarctica Dr. Warner welcome
to Radio Eco shock.
With him.
Well,
thank you for joining us for an update on this frozen world at the
South Pole.
First of all what parts of Australia are closest to Antarctica and
what claims does your country have on that continent.
Okay.
Well,
I'm here in Tasmania of an island state of Australia.
Half of the Australian mainland and well I thought still some
distance away to our south there are only a few small islands in
the middle of the Southern Ocean,
between Australia and Antarctica.
However,
as you alluded Australia does have a territorial claim to a large
piece of the Antarctic,
but 42% of it,
to be precise now various countries establish these claims in an
age of heroic exploration.
You know putting out flags and claiming things in the name of if
you know,
typically,
your moniker your state with the done thing.
In those days and these claims exist and some of them actually
tend to overlap,
particularly around the most successful part then tactic in that.
Think of the Antarctic Peninsula points up to South America and
one big think there isn't actually coined by anyone at all.
But these claims are on ice and if you will.
Under their party.
Treaty which was established in the 1950s and it's that treaty
that governs how people behave in Antarctica.
These days,
whether they have claims to particular pieces of turf all but I
will not.
And have you been there.
Yes I think twice.
I think of 3 summer seasons with heat strain in US,
British,
French collaborative project this imaginatively called ice cap.
This is a bit of a mouthful stands for investigating Christ very
evolution through collaborative 2 physical profiling and what that
means is that we have a whole range of instruments on an aircraft
, the fact of the rejuvenated DC 3 genuine World War II vintage
and we fly for hours and hours.
They are the ice sheet measuring many different things and I'm
sure we will discuss today using that aircraft.
So I was a Casey station which is one of 3 Australian basis on
continent itself that's due south of Western Australia and I've
got there.
In this modern era either by flying directly there in a jet plane
from here in Havana to the runaway on the ice cap behind the
station or rather more long way around changing planes that.
US they with murder when flying for hours and hours allow you know
ski equipped Hercules to land at and on one occasion I've come
home on our ice breaker which took 7 considered try.
It's a giant place.
I mean it is a real continent now in a shocking bit of news
Antarctica just experienced the 2 hardest days ever recorded there
, namely 63.5 degrees Fahrenheit,
or 17.5° C and that was that.
The Argentinian Esperanza Base on the Antarctic Peninsula.
I've heard that was warmer than the temperature in Britain on the
same day in late March.
Is that just a freak occurrence or do you think Antarctica is
warming.
Yeah,
I don't say that being involved with the phone day here at home.
It's not part of either or outside the Antarctic Peninsula.
But think you're Antarctica pointing South America is an area of
Antarctica that shows some of the greatest climate warming of
recent years.
For the whole planet,
perhaps 5° Celsius warmer over the last 50 years,
according to the British Antarctic Survey.
So it's consistent with that sort of situation that you're going
to keep getting record breaking maximum temperatures and that of
course one hot days where there while the trend in hot days who
climbed into it was not a theorist of previous record was only 0.4
degree Celsius lower that was back in 1961 and it was even later
in the year as a month later was in April that's so it's only anti
think the reason is warming.
And so when I 3 state holidays.
You know,
so not a freak occurrence.
All right,
well,
let's turn to a new scientific paper you were directly involved in
the title is ocean access to a cavity beneath glacier in East
Antarctica.
We need to frame that a bit.
Obviously,
where's the tartan glacier and how big is it.
Yes,
certainly.
The Congress is the largest growth you know East Antarctica.
It came to split Antarctic are up by which in the world,
we're looking at.
After all,
and I think you know everything is sort of you know and so we
don't particularly is parts weaving between the Greenwich Meridian
and the line below Africa Australia so the Congo.
If you can fight on almost exactly the opposite side and
Antarctica so less brands when looking at about 116 he strongly
too.
So almost directly below the city of Perth.
In the capital city of Western Australia.
He took a very large grace period driving 540,000 square
kilometers of East Antarctica.
He was like,
I think that is being more than twice the size of for you.
Australian state of Victoria for North American audience audiences
might be more helpful to say that somewhat more than twice the
area of all the Great Lakes put together.
And that's big.
Yeah.
Yes,
okay.
And so just food to fill out is the story this 70 billion tons of
ice flows out of that quite you know every year that's amazingly
about the flow rate of Niagara Falls,
but obviously it's moving slightly,
but on a very grand scale.
Is that the amount that actually reaches the sea every year.
Yep,
that's,
that's what that that out of ice that you can collect in half a
million square kilometers,
I should say that they are itself is more than 30km wide at the
front considerably stand and Niagara Falls and its 200 meters
thick.
So there's a lot of life on the moon.
Well,
you've hit something that's a little confusing to some of us we
have sea ice which doesn't directly add to sea level rise.
We have melting from land ice like Greenland which does add to the
sea level rise and then in the Arctic.
There's only a couple small ice shelves left attached to Canadian
polar islands but in Antarctica seems confusing,
could you just give us a quick update on the relationship between
sea ice ice shelves and land based glaciers.
Yeah,
this is certainly something which could use a lot of people.
Yet the only turning to do it through water or flowing into the
sea.
That could affect sea level rises.
Obviously I that's currently not floating on the ocean because
courtesy of the year old Archimedes we have you know the guy
that's floating on the ocean when it melts well simply filling the
volume.
It was previously displacing.
So that's not to say that the melting of things like ice shelves
which is.
Got if your that the floating on the ocean.
That's not to say that won't have an impact on the earth's system
because it's only going to fresh of top layers of the ocean that
in terms of the level rises ground a life like Greenland and like
for little ice caps are still remain you where you know Arctic and
now graces around the world and a sleeping giant in the lift,
which perhaps is not fleeting Antarctica that's where think was
going to come from.
I would like to fall out of the on story as well.
Think about feel it is this is the host of surface freezing and
it's around Antarctica and in the Arctic.
It's one of the big seasonal changes in the Earth's climate system
around Antarctica in the wintertime.
The area where the ocean surface is predominantly covered by why
such been frozen over the ocean itself.
That's almost double for signs of that big,
white pants down of that the part of the globe.
And when that sea ice is forming the Fiat itself is relatively
fresh from the salt water on that they could become smug Saltire
and wipe a different story for one we want to tell today that's
actually what drives a lot of the deep global ocean circulation
further things would happen with sea ice around Antarctica.
We were fixing the the deep political be overturning circulation
alcohol plant.
The progression of ourselves shelves and the ice sheet is also an
interesting one.
The melting away all the changes in ourselves don't directly
affect civil rights of a but there are still Ferraris something
for the gatekeepers particularly for Antarctica in terms of the
rate at which ice flows from a grounded ice into the ocean and we
believe in effect changes in the ice shelves are going to be that
the major drivers in changing the dynamics of the whole why she
could phone they do play a big role in in the future.
Sea level.
It's been compared to pulling the cork out of a bottle.
Yes,
all you can think of it as a keystone you know basically you have
a big Ice shelf you know talking of the biggest ones are very
firmly professionally in very large but that would in fact
probably be called fees if they weren't.
Follow us and the presence of the ice shelf there provides
retiring stress that's holding back ice which is flowing typically
I flew in Antarctica is concentrated into major quite fast moving
out late.
Well,
if you know so I streams and it's quite focused for likely to top
the lot of mentioning before and often is channeled into these
very being ourselves and so if you do something to change the ice
shelf.
You're going to do something to change the whole balance of forces
from that's that's restraining the writer was that ice flows into
the ocean.
It seems parts of Antarctica are actually below sea level.
Is that correct and what would that continent look like without
the ice cap.
Yes,
that's certainly true again that East West Antarctica dividing
line is is perhaps a useful one here for a long time.
We've known by probing through to see how thick the ice is and how
far down that is bedrock company we've known.
There's a lot of the West.
And I think I see is standing on the sea floor maybe half a mile
or more still needles but deep and that includes,
actually the,
the the summit agreed to between I suppose westwards to the Rafah
itself and I thought flows eastwards towards you know a month of
sitting in around towards South America.
So if I cheat hadn't developed there.
This would just the ocean one could go to work well could go
sailing and what developed in the last 2 years,
partly as a result of major aerial survey that we've done with ice
cap project is we have better defined it.
The extensive areas of East Antarctica are also seeking on bedrock
that deep below sea level.
In this case,
said that turned out because I feel even sicker than we thought in
some places,
it's 2 miles thick and in particular,
we've been exploring the aurora Basin,
which is a vast area in the catchment of Tottenham life here and
we heard inside the bedrock channels that connect that deep cover
to the coast of of the aurora based around the world so called
Wilkes.
Sub-glacial basin which is immediately to its east.
If the law Michael submarine part of of eastern our state
convinced that we removed all the are with that,
I think it would simply become a collection of islands you could
fail from the Pacific to the Atlantic without having to go past
Cape Horn and he can talk,
it wouldn't have seen major itself,
it might even writers see.
And so until they new research done by a team,
we didn't really understand how warmer waters could undermine this
tartan glacier.
How does it work.
And how did you do the science to find this out.
Yeah,
the,
the way that works is that will be crucial question for getting
melting of ourselves and it's changing the follow.
Ground a life behind used to working out is the warm ocean water
nearby and more importantly all the pathways by which it can
circulated to weigh up all the continental shelf and kind of
actually getting into these cavities underneath the ice shelves.
They have much in the time left,
you can see how deep the ocean is if you fire up and down with on
you know shit,
but it's very hard to work out what's the geometry of the sea
floor underneath.
Maybe one of needing 2 kilometers of
I now Wesley serving aircraft reviews have a radar system that can
see right through to the base for the iPhone and can even see lot
of internal structure through the life as well.
We also have some magnetometers to try and figure out what sort of
character and actually underlying the ICC most importantly for
this work,
we had a very sense the gravity money before long we mention my
new variations in the strength of local gravity I'm flying very
near the surface and very slowly.
Obviously it's very maybe 140 knots,
these is ideal for that sort of survey.
You know they mean you have to fit now and there's a lot of
detailed work to figure out how those tiny variations in the
strength of work or gravity can be translated into what death of
ice and water a raucous directly below your 5 track so I right I
can't penetrate seawater water.
So we don't see the bottom of an icy so we only 3 the bedrock
where the ice is on the ground.
But this gravity days are allowed us to map is inaccessible
Welshman cavities underneath ourselves and indeed to map the
seafloor off the coast.
There were often see Astra meant ships from getting in and so what
we've been able to do is to map out the shape of bedrock beneath
this floating terminus of both the problem crisis around a
neighboring ourself called the Moscow University herself and the
most serious finding is that there are some deepwater channel that
me open ocean to the charity and this includes a previously
completely unknown Persia logical pathway.
If you like another channel,
it increases the prospect that what war can circulate into this
cavity and maybe if the temperature of the water changes then the
melting which is already quite extensive and therefore the
dynamics of the system will change.
And if you know the story ideas or thoughts on something you've
heard contacted us can radio an equal shot of Darfur and that's
radio equal shot and orgy.
West you were list.
Going to Radio Eco shock I'm Alex Smith with Australian scientist
Rulon C Warner Rowland,
can we expect any measurable sea level rise from the Tartan
glacier complex say in this century.
Yes we can in we're already seeing some small contribution to sea
level rise and I'm not sure of that anybody's total all I have.
Because the of us you know crisis dream that forms the life here
is actually.
Getting thinner near the coast in fact surface there has been in
recent years and have a few years,
they said.
It's been dropping by maybe Vermeer and a half per year.
So this is in fact innocent parties,
one of the hot spots where they definitely ice loss in terms of
what will happen in the rest of the century.
We now know that it's possible to get water in there and dynamics
of the top of the person says that this already some considerable
melting going on there.
We don't really know in detail how future climate high increase
that supply and what the consequent transmission of that affect
but level rise would be,
but it's certainly anything parking.
It's the place to wants went the timescale is centuries all of
with a little more we don't quite know them,
but if you people are taking this very seriously.
Harris,
perhaps in the fantastic haunts.
To spend a lot of talk between scientists about the importance of
the grounding line,
what is that.
Yes.
The Grammy moments probably really more bizarre and it is winnable
and Gracie actually starts to to go afloat whenever we just a
scuffle what event.
I think that I think to be really on the sea floor and as its
forces towards the Mars and eventually there comes a point where
it simply going to go off white given direction of life.
Well,
it probably would be better if it was called the underground
entwined.
One of the flotation line,
it's important because it's the place where suddenly the base of
the ice sheet is not protected by by being on the ground and
suddenly the possibility of wish and driven melting the UMP
commences and I should say that it's again something we've only
learned in the last 2 decades that near these crowning line
somewhere often the ice is very deep here in Miami Tottenham we're
talking about a transition point that's probably a mile below sea
level.
The the the melting even is grounding aren't these 10s of meters
year maybe 15 years here.
And given that the water was doing that and they'll think it still
by by any swimmers stand I'm very close to freezing.
It's likely that this is an extremely thing to be part of of the
climate system.
So that's the first thing that's important about the grounding.
On the second thing that's important is this,
particularly in some configurations of the bedrock these grounding
lines themselves my move.
So it's not just a matter of bringing more iced up to her.
You know my fixed gaze and then having to follow through their and
and and they'll it's not possible that the grounding itself will
migrate inland reducing the 5 on the ground and the high street
and transmitting these changes in the forces of the even further
upstream.
We'll sea level rises.
The real wildcard when we think about the impact of Antarctic
melting I've just gone through a paper by lead author Fernando
Apollo titled volume loss from Antarctic ice shelves is
accelerating.
Is it just the ice shelves or is ice loss from Antarctica
increasing and at a faster rate.
Do we know.
Yeah,
I do this comes back to that.
The point we were.
This guy thing you know you know that these guys have done a great
job in trying to improve our understanding about what's happening
to ice shelves previously we had quite good measurements swimmer
quite precise either of you sort of that was flying in space for a
few years showing that these ice shelves of getting home and I'm
really hard problem because given look I shelf it's floating.
If you see half a meter change in the surface height of the
fighting are so often means that he lost 5 meters ice from the
wire what they've done here,
he said.
While at 5-year record is is rather short and some of the longest
recall that's available actually heavenly.
And I think he is from some writer satellites that were measuring
the height and ice shelves and so they've been able to conclude
that ice shelves are certainly on the whole it so they're losing
which is actually slightly fresh link the Antarctic coastal
erosion but because beginning Feb.
They are also likely reducing this restraining force they have on
the high street and in fact they are when they see the biggest
changes in West Antarctica,
in those places where there out like have been observed to be
speeding up,
so it's only important and it's important in terms of what we,
what we think is one of the controllers of Chinese in the ICC and
they level contributions from the itself.
In a comment on that article,
one of the scientists Lori pad been expressed.
There's a lot of uncertainty about what will happen on Antarctica
as the world climate changes.
In fact,
he said.
Quote it is plausible that even if the Earth's average temperature
increases effect on ocean currents around Antarctica might
actually work against Antarctic ice sheet melting and he goes on
to say that that past a records may not tell us a lot because
we're changing the climate so fast compared to what happened in
past times what do you think about all that.
Well,
it's true that one,
one has to be careful about he was financial planners tell you
part the performance is guaranteed a future performance,
but with changing the composition of the atmosphere,
and so he's corrective driver for changing climate is no longer be
the Milinkevich the so called ice age cycle I do those changes
were pretty dramatic in terms of sea level rise 20,000 years ago
when was great Hemisphere ice sheets and decayed but certainly
we're forcing system a lot faster around them any natural forcing
that's these apply I'd be a little surprised if it was actually
going to have to work against I see my thing on the whole the deep
ocean,
he's already warming and you've only got to warm water a little
bit for it to carry a lot of heat campaign turns away he can be
carried by changes in air temperature.
So I think that the changing dynamic response is going to be quite
high and that's so hard to see who we can avoid conveying that
don't want to really high shelves and then by weakening ourselves
increase some nice discharge from Antarctica.
It's only warmer air temperatures will generate some higher
snowfall that it's not really clear that that can dominate the
sort of exhilaration the life and we've already seen.
And Lori tab and also talked about the irony that sea levels
around Antarctica and Greenland may actually go down as the
glaciers melt.
How is that possible.
You know,
this is,
this is quite amazing it another one of these obvious in hindsight
inside it's looking pretty recently insightful from both us anyway
. Any sort of water surface Rep Of in fact commonsense idea of
level since obviously water flows downhill.
In fact the FTSE service mission with precision from space shows
that that idea down here only.
Modulated by all sorts of things like currents and winds of other
factors.
And in particular the vast method ice on these grounds.
That's a sufficient gravitational attraction to pull the ocean
around them towards them.
And this generates an an up slope in.
He is the sea surface around the ice sheets and so it work,
what if you're losing what sort of advice billions of tons a life
in that reduces its attraction and a bit of a surprise intuition
and nearby streets.
This comes out why the overall effect that you put that all into
the global 3 level,
but in fact merely hosting the 3 level with pregnant fall
considerably more and in fact,
they've only been a few idealized computer simulations trying to
put this in.
I think you into countenance does provide a little bit of a
stabilizer to to grabbing line retreat if 3 we will media actually
doing a relic later is falling.
I should just say there's the bad news consequence of local effect
which it means that those who level rises more than you might have
expected far away from you know I think there are some estimates
that in North America,
you might get 25% more than global average the level but when
Northwest.
But what will have to go somewhere.
Right now,
some scientists including the Intergovernmental Panel on climate
change suggest total sea level rise by 2100 may only be one meter
others think that's a very conservative estimate,
we might get that much from Antarctic melting alone plus what
comes from the Arctic Roland Warren.
What do you think.
Yeah,
it is you know finally unforgiving question the contribution,
particularly from Antarctic ever trauma.
I see.
In general terms and global sea level rise the IPCC is as you say
, coming up with numbers of the regardless comforted by also have
to come up.
Of course with what they think might happen under a whole range of
of efforts and because of the immense scrutiny.
The IPCC hands they do put a lot of effort into qualifying.
What they mean by being uncertain about something and you know you
can go and look at their tables and if they say very likely there
meant he was such a such a probability percentage but when it came
to Antarctica they they finally had to give up on that,
and while I think that everybody collapse of these so called
marine sectors of Antarctic ice sheet if initiated could make fee
level rise substantially above the unlikely range the best they
could do was say this additional contribution would not exceed
several tents ultimately tire during the 21st century now for be
over weapons from listen carefully calibrated on for me in terms
of,
you know several tenths of a meter cover the everywhere from you
know 20cm to the best part of a meter.
So this really is the most uncertain contribution towards her long
term 3 level prediction things like a federal expansion of the
ocean pretty well on the controlling terms,
you know,
I think that for various different climate warming scenario now
graces of often fairly hard to do at least and I thought we were
of the worst that can happen is they might eventually old me on,
you know,
one of that sort of analysis to Antarctica on Greenland.
So we got a useful worst case scenario,
because it tells you something like 60 millions feeling harassed,
which is certainly not going to happen any time soon,
but it's also not a useful you know in member.
Because,
really,
it's so shocking if would rearrange civilization altogether if we
eventually get that much but as you say,
we're talking at least in centuries.
You're listening to shock radio before the world and.
I'm Alex Smith get all their website shock.org.
Don't forget,
or a hot interview with proper garden wizard Marjorie Wilde is
still to come.
This is Radio Eco shock were talking with Australian Antarctic
expert Dr. Roland Warner another complication difficult for
non-scientist Dr. awarded to understand is the prediction that
snowfall on Antarctica may actually increase with climate change.
And even that may help speed glacier movement to the sea.
Can you talk to us about that please.
Yes,
I think we certainly expect that the most think is not yet
receiving the sort of squandering warming that's been so dramatic
in the Antarctic Peninsula.
And that may be partly due to slowly fighting other thing.
From the of these on hold in Antarctica,
which has tended to have an influence on on Antarctic climate but
if the it image arises.
It's still going to be very cold,
but clearly warmer air can hold more moisture and everybody does
expect that that's not fault when Antarctica.
We will increase and part seems studies that suggest that that
itself accelerates the 4 out of the ocean.
I think that 30 increased melting of ourselves.
It is likely to be enough.
I'm eager think in that some of the studies the need.
You know it.
20 years ago so that you know if you think it's going to take out
a thousand years to establish some new equilibrium then with do
you get 2 meters or 3 meters of sea level rise from Antarctica
would depend on whether you had factored in this compensating
effect on of high rates of snowfall in Antarctica,
because obviously so far the Antarctic,
there is really nothing putting feel right away in the bank and it
can take understood however that you start to flow back so it's
certainly an important compensating effect,
but I think the Democratic response really driven by the ocean is
going to be that the biggest influence on Antarctic trying.
Right.
It's hard for people to understand that it's,
it's not that the warming air temperatures going to melt he sings
from above,
it's at the hotter ocean reaching in is going to weaken them from
below,
isn't it.
The story.
That's certainly what we're seeing,
particularly because some of the areas further but changing the
most practically at the moment in the area of of Antarctica and so
on in the Pacific Ocean,
in the,
on the I'm this is almost about as far south as you can actually
find was.
Before you actually bumping into Antarctica and you know it's
there with it.
Temperatures are still well although for you think that that we're
seeing these these biggest changes and it is one of the places
where we know that when the warm ocean currents circulate normally
at some distance around Antarctica do manage,
but by virtue of currents and the topography of them Continental
Shelf,
the new mines to come into all the here and certainly here so that
the,
the power of our ocean water.
Well,
sort of,
that's,
you know the risk for me,
the effect all of warmer air temperature at least in the more
northerly parts of Antarctica where temperature and from a mill
things on the surface of these ice shelves is actually certainly
playing a big role in the rather dramatic disintegration over the
matter of a few weeks of a few ourselves in the Antarctic
Peninsula.
Back on them.
I mean last century.
Well,
all along we've talked about West Antarctica and East Antarctica
as though they were almost separate parts of the puzzle.
Are there any generalizations you can give us about what is
happening in these 2 halves compared to each other.
Yeah,
it's interesting that in some ways and they they do fit being
described as if they were 2 different worlds,
the observational evidence we have fallen further Oval Office the
Heisman tactics because we can actually directly made the
disappearance of ice from space either by seeing the change in the
fall of the ice surface,
telling us that the eye soothing cinnamon falling off or by
actually worryingly the from space.
We can tell that within topic is where currently mostly action is
overall it is Antarctica,
very little change may be some slight overall increase,
although this area around the Tottenham place is one of the hot
spot.
Fantastic areas that's the place with his most consistent I floss
going on there,
which is what the reasons we have interested but so in terms of
the current response.
This seems to be 2 separate worlds.
However,
what we,
realizing as we discussed earlier is these parts of East
Antarctica in terms of this very deep bedrock well below sea level
channels can anything that out towards the new some of that is a
lot more like West Antarctica in terms of its setting people
previously thought they could well be that it's simply a matter of
the response of the forcing and perhaps in East Antarctica in the
future,
we might see phenomenal wing of recognize from what we presently 3
West Antarctica.
Dr. Warner are we able to say whether in total Antarctica is
losing mass staying the same or gaining ice mass.
Yeah,
it's very clearly losing harness and there's pretty good evidence
for that rate of losses XL or anything that comes from the direct
observation for growing putting the icing on on the sky often
turning you know you're so that will often with Antarctic it
without weighing flight increases a whole stability in East
Antarctica.
The experts think that in maybe another year of observations will
be in a better position to sort out influence in that process of
seasonal variations,
if you like,
particularly in snowfall,
it's quite impressive.
The talking from space.
You can actually seeing this actually isn't very much is at the
scene Greenland in Antarctica,
but you can actually seeing Greenland the seasonal arrival of the
big dumps of snow that come in the winter and the great a loss of
over the summer,
I mean it's actually that their annual cycle quite visible,
you know if I think there is things are not quite clear because
things are happening on Holmgren Earth's lower scale,
but people I convinced that you know cutting observations longer
will allow us through to sort out trends without the confusion of
these variations.
Well,
the key question was sea level rises always when and we discussed
this a little bit,
but do we have enough science yet to really know how much
Antarctica will add to the world's oceans during this century.
No,
we don't,
it's actually 2 biggest unknown in trying to predict what sea
level to expect and in fact the IPCC felt they couldn't even give
you an opinion about how much of the response might vary according
to what for the phone global warming practical trajectory we we
found ourselves on.
So it's,
it's quite serious on their own and the other thing about and how
to his that is a lot of life there we finally passed on the fact
that I see is sitting on this this well below sea level rock.
One of the other complications several areas west Antarctica is
for the paradigm for this.
I guess the better just get a deeper and deeper and deeper as you
go towards the interior of the ice sheet and so there is a
possibility.
And in fact this part of the marine instability there is a
prospect of if the grounding line is starting to move inland it'll
just keep on going and it will continue to retrieve and you
continue to lose a life until you finally managed to heavy rice
sheep catch itself on some bedrock features and so on the state of
Alaska have retreat process.
So what sort of year they were centuries.
This is rather uncertain and the prospect is good you can keep on
giving and they could keep on giving even if we stabilize the
world in some warmer started.
Yes I think NASA so came out and said that the process is
unstoppable.
Yes the,
the,
and I think what's happening in this I'm I'm simply region with a
couple of them being places they like white guys here is they feel
they've done enough on bedrock profiling there again using his
high penetrating radar system to say they can't see any obvious.
Neil anchor points that would stop further retreat,
but has currently started so when the IPCC said market get more
civil rights and we can't really quantify it if we start to
initiate the citizenry nicely collapse it.
It's possible always seeing the first stages and already.
Please tell us about a couple of projects the Antarctic climate
and ecosystems Cooperative Research Centre has on the go.
Right will be that we just had,
I think the renewed last year so we there so that they'll stall
with what we think of the most pressing issues even part of the
ecosystem area and so we have a major overarching projects on this
ocean driven election of the Antarctic ice and Billy always
matters.
We've been talking about tonight.
You know activities range from voyages with we had a voyage where
they are right,
that is ice breaker to the front of the Tottenham away if you know
, and just this time January where they did actually verify the
first time anybody's got this for the coming crop of Tottenham.
If I.
Pack I just 5 permanent captain was brave enough to try only and
get some maintenance and so we do know that the warm water is
actually arriving there at the front of the charity and with this
work at just being published.
Well,
I should say time Damon Green down from them.
University of Texas in Austin we now think that we can the
channels by which water is gonna make its way onto the ice.
So,
the problem remains a major interest for us,
we've already been doing most circulation more studies to try and
explore how the ocean circulation moves underneath my shelves and
also how the resulting water affects the external,
and now that we've gone an improved picture of what the state
underneath the problem looks like,
but will be going back dramas again and the big step forward is to
start coupling the dynamics of the ice shelves the flow of the
ground and I behind with the ocean because on as if your melting
the bottom of changing geometry of that that changes were talking
with.
You know he arrives and what was living in,
we need to topple assistance together eventually that will become
part of in times of system model,
we'll be doing more so they work with area geophysical surveys
exploring them prices a bedrock and Antarctica we're used to be
that talking on the phone.
Part of the whole planet without them person,
which is a the lapels,
and we know what's some of these part of Antarctica.
So that work will be continuing and we've also got film programs
homely namely myself this is extent I think biggest ice shelf in
Antarctica is 3rd largest myself and we've had field program there
with oceanographic instruments that were deployed by drilling
through nearly a thousand meters of of ice shelf and appalling
instruments in the ocean underneath enormous find out what's
actually going on in these rather the inaccessible parts of the
planet.
You know what hearing you talk,
it almost sounds like we're trying to discover some things about
Mars.
You know it's a mile deep beneath the ice,
it's very difficult to peer around,
we,
we don't know a lot of things it.
It's amazing that we're finding out as much as we do.
Yeah,
it's.
But we,
we thought that if I cap survey come Casey staging of us and say
we don't have a thousand kilometers long and,
back home on each flight there,
there was an area where they were,
maybe 2 ground based survey the of whole previous 50 years I had
talking exploration and we would gather that stay there in an
8-hour flight and Soviet with further citing it in there were
still a few places,
which we hope to get to where it.
If you were a 15th century make you probably writing here be
dragons vigorous,
we still don't have had detailed bedrock there but sadly the map
is is being filming.
From Hobart Tasmania.
We've been talking with Dr. Roland C Warner he's a researcher with
Australia's Antarctic climate and ecosystems Cooperative Research
Centre Dr. Roland.
Thank you so much for sharing your time with us.
I really appreciate it.
There's been a blatant.
I'm Alex Smith reporting for Radio Eco.
We are back after the online grow your own food summit with the
organizer Marjorie while Kraft Marjorie remind us just once again
where you grow your food in the way you operate your homestead
experiments.
No,
I actually I wasn't Central Texas and my homestead,
is a resort.
Center dedicated to finding systems and developing systems for you
to be able to grow having your own food in a backyard cyberspace
and less than an hour a day pretty tall order.
But we're working on it.
Last week,
you talked about getting her husband and son on board with aqua
panics is it necessary to have everybody in your family on board
with this prep gardening style right from the get-go.
No,
in fact,
I'd say that the vast.
Majority of of people who will consider themselves peppers.
They have a reluctant spouse or reluctant children and so they
just you know go and do what they do anyway with growing your own
food.
What I would recommend is just get started and the family actually
starts to get involved in it,
one of the best ways to get them on board is when you're
harvesting.
That's one of the most delightful times especially with kids I got
I can give you some of the best vegetables to grow for kids.
It'll make can all must be out there in your yard treating it like
a snack bar,
you know,
there's lot cherry tomatoes that grows so well in the summertime.
Those kids will be out there fighting forum and in the cooler
seasons those sugar snap peas are delicious were strawberries.
You know,
if you've got some really tasty food out there.
Those kids will be out there playing with it and that's one way to
get them involved with it without it even being proper saying
grain.
Tell us about your Aqua panic set up what have you done there.
You know,
we,
we've built one and I believe it's like 30 feet long by about 12
feet wide and it has 150 gallon fish tank and you know I had
always initially avoided alcoholics because it's a little bit high
tech you know it's going to involve motor motors and pumps and and
and things like that which actually ended up being the attraction
for my husband and my and that's the reason they like it is,
it's kinda hard.
I don't even impressed with those systems.
They do require energy.
You know you're gonna be needing some solar power wind power or
the electrical grid which is another reason we had avoided it
initially we were initially always developing our systems for
Ingrid down or open that sustainability type of situation,
but we ended up going with this,
I I have to say that it is definitely easier to grow food in the
Arc upon access tomorrow.
Our first year of experiments are all that way it does require a
little bit more watching for example that pump goes out your fish
only have so long before they're gonna need oxygen and and die so
it,
it does need a little bit more monitoring like that,
but on the other hand,
it really is easier and part of that here in Central Texas it was
protected from the wind.
It was protected from extremes of heat and cold.
You know the plants just grew better the fish created the waste
that will said the plants and and it worked really well,
it's a,
it's a good system.
You know it's canvas often closest Amin away but it is tricky and
technical as you say I I've been avoiding it so far.
Let's talk about perma culture that's another major contender for
truly sustainable agriculture have you experimented with the food
for and by the way,
what is a food for us.
Well I love food for us and I have to say this is my particular
favorite.
Way to grow food.
The idea of a food forces you create an area that mimics nature in
that you plant trees and bushes and vines and honorable way errors
and every plant in there is edible or medicine or beneficial in
some way and if you look at the forest.
A 4th does not need any tending right you go to a pristine forest
and the trees,
there they drop their leaves their self marching you know they
they've learned how to manage the water that comes to them.
Naturally they don't need to be irrigated and they often you know
there's still some production of food and animals and wildlife
within it.
So what we trying to do is create systems like that and then they
get back and try to maybe had its with a little bit more benefit
toward us there more investment in time getting up and started
because a lot of your fruit and nut trees are not gonna start
producing for 5 to 10 years.
But once you get them established they're much much less work than
annual gardens.
We all know gardening can help seniors maintain their mental and
physical health much longer but eventually we may not be able to
handle the heavy work,
how can we set up a garden to keep going with very little effort.
Well,
that's it.
Exactly,
that's why food Forrester such and it's it's a real retirement
plan,
unlike Social Security,
which we never really know if that's come along.
That's going to be a.
So a real retirement plan is going to be to play at the food for
store to plant a small orchard right now.
Well,
you've got the strength and energy to have that going and then you
know in your later years.
It's a lot easier to just harvest apples and it is to be planting
doing all the work of the annual garden.
Let's talk about prepping for past side built 2 big raised their
heads out of some years lumber but I put a wire lying on the
bottom to keep both the morals of seem to love by rich garden soil
. What else can we do to encourage passed to stay out of the
garden.
Well,
one thing is to have a more first.
They have really good rich soil will help reduce your insect
problems for more than golfers.
Personally,
I have a big problem that we have a lot of sand here and I've been
experimenting with using castor beans as a mole repellent and of
and I go forward talent and so far it seems to be working very
well in fact Castro used to be known as as no go for plant.
One of the realities of having beautiful food source like that as
you are going to need to have some fencing or some protection from
everything else that loves to eat your food like raccoons or
squirrels or rabbits.
So a good fence around your garden is just a reality.
Well,
our about 7 feet high and then we dangle little pieces of cloth
and colored foil on the top of that to keep the deer from jumping
in.
But for the rest we always planned a little extra for all the
creatures that are gonna eat out of your garden.
Whether you like it or not.
That's a very good practice we rely very heavily on 2 dogs to do a
large part of the protection from the predators here,
but one of the Dodgers' even really good at spotting overhead
aerial hawks and Barking and letting everybody know when the Hawks
are nearby and I find them invaluable they they work all night
they mostly sleep all day.
I don't see them very much because I give them the butchering
scraps from when we do butchering and then they offered just get
whatever table scraps.
We don't need and then they they find what they can you know the
bigger catcher rabbit here and there,
so they don't really require a lot of input and they do a lot of
work.
When I was doing part time firming in eastern Canada.
The only chemical are used as wrote known it's made from ground-up
roots of a South American plant and Robert rodeo used it I had to
use it for the Colorado potato beetle if you have a big planning a
potatoes.
We had the couple of acres,
there's no way to squash all those bugs by hand.
What do you think.
You know,
that's that's a lot of work to manage a couple of caterer this you
know we all need to be used as much organic processors as possible
the classic thing was something like a couple of acres of potatoes
is to pay the kids.
It used to be a penny bugs and you'd have them go through the rows
and then they dump out bugs in the account and then you pay them
that used to be the he to get rid of the goods but Colorado potato
beetle.
Could still work today if it gets a neighborhood kids going well
last week.
You talked about not needing refrigeration or freezers that we
could just munch away through the fresh food season but I have to
admit,
there are times when we got so much food more that we could give
away trade even that we needed to freeze some at least until we
could catch up to our canning and drying I like adding a
dehydration they don't depend on the grid staying up.
What about you.
I do too.
As I'm not a huge proponent of that and fermentation also as
another as another method of food storage,
by the way at the homegrown food summit.
We have one presentation by Kendra Lynn who'll be showing you how
to do water about caning and how to do pressure canning and what I
love about it is,
you know,
as some people have a fear of those big pressure because they are
these big intimidating things and there's the stories of them
blowing up and stuff,
right.
There's no longer a concern about they've built them there now
face.
But when you see Kendra.
Who is this flight and beautiful woman just handling that
machinery go I can do it and we also have already Hamann is going
to be doing a whole thing on how to how to preserve food by
fermentation as well as the health benefits turns up at that
fermented foods really help your gut bacteria and help you to
digest a lot better.
So some of these techniques are actually I can help increase the
nutrition content of the food you're eating.
Yeah warranties real gem we've had on radio shock and I still
check out her blog once a week and it's important to keep up with
that one of my goals is to build a solar dryer.
Do you have one.
We do I used a model based on its side believe it's Appalachian
State University created this model there's there's lots of other
ones out there and it has worked really really well now we do tend
to be a bit drier here in Texas,
but I found that that model even worked well during the summer's
the times when we had a wet period that is definitely a technique
for the poor on preserving food that's a very useful.
Farmers around here used to throw their pitches up on a Hot Tin
Roof on one of their shepherds and solar dried them that way and
it did work.
Now let me ask you do you let chickens interior garden.
On rare occasions I do.
One example was one time my sweet potato showed up with these
strange looking little beetles that had a shiny.
It was almost what by chrome shell.
I have no idea what they were,
they were and alien Beatles.
You know,
normally when I see an insect outbreak like that I think
immediately that my plants are stressed and they need some
nutrients you know some some some sort of nutrient thing and I'll
try to get them,
you know,
liquid seaweed or some homemade compost or something.
But in the short term immediate what I do that.
The chickens in there and chickens are naturally insect they love
insects first but I watch them innocent of their gun getting all
the insects then you wanna kick'em
out of the garden because then they'll start scratching up the
rest of your pricing ads.
I do,
they will scratch about so aren't that after all your YouTube
videos your best selling grow your own groceries course that you
hear from gardeners all over the world.
Do you.
We don't know and we have a very active network of people they
contribute.
Things that they're discovering in there that that they're
learning and we're very excited about that and want to develop
that further well actually creating also a network of places just
like our place where we're doing research on different ways to
grow food other places that are doing that are starting to become
network together and sharing results and making it available to
them to everybody really I feel Alex this solution is gonna come
from you and for me and from,
you know I mean anybody even hardly an example Leslie Leslie
Parsons works still works full time and she only has a small
garden.
She's very passionate about Squire should about 2 hundred square
foot garden and so she's been doing all these experiments were
squash she's come up with a couple of varieties that are resistant
of the squash vine borer which is a horrible problem for people
and squash is such a good important calorie crop.
So you know she's only doing this part time in a 200ft² garden.
She has done really,
really valuable research on of a crop that's resistant to the
squash vine borer which is hugely important to the rest of us
she's publishing that work on our our blog and making it available
to other people and creating a whole discussion about it now.
Other people are trying it and duplicating our work and getting
feedback to her.
This is how it's gonna happen.
Monsanto is not here to help us,
the USDA is not here to help us.
Unfortunately our own government.
While it does try.
It's actually still we we controlled by the big companies.
This is gonna be a problem that can only be solved by you and me
and by individuals and neighbors working together and that's the
whole reason for for what I do is working at this grassroots level
of coming up with real solutions for you to create your own food
and medicine.
What would you say the number one concern people razor or the
block that prevents them in their own minds from getting going on
growing their own groceries.
I think most people think that it's gonna be a lot of work and
they're not going to get much production out of it.
It's also were also such an instant gratification such high if it
take my son can with barbed work on a guitar and look at the Xbox
and like in 5 minutes.
He's a rock star okay with with that then and I just doesn't have
. And in the garden things take 2 to 3 months to mature.
So it's adjusting to life style that's actually more human scale
is a pretty big block.
I would say though,
that's probably one of the things you're most Hungarian for in
your life.
You know it's strange a start following your heart into something
as you did with personal food growing and I could also call that
personal liberty,
then you teacher communicate you connect a normal suddenly you
Marjorie while Kraft have become kind of a,
a one-woman movement on your own.
Isn't it strange.
It is it,
it's only a review as about this week.
15 years ago our view to told me what I will girl what I'd be
doing Iacocca where have no no no,
or you know you know life is amazing adventures a.
Well,
I want to take your DVD course what's in it and why does it cost.
Well know said it's it's 2 DVDs and then it includes a CD-ROM
that's a whole library of documents to support it and I,
one,
it's basically like me taken you by the hand and taking you
through my homestead here and showing you how I grow food and I'm
like,
you know.
Here's the water tanks were set up to catch rainwater and oh by
the way we overbuilt it it was a huge mistake.
Please don't make it this big and then he a place where we started
a garden and here's another place we started a garden and these
are the reasons why those gardens totally sucked in failed.
But here's where we put our other garden and this is working,
and here's the gardening method that years because this is the
most efficient one and I've tried all these other ones,
but this is the one that I really like and here's where I keep the
rabbits and I put them right here next to the garden because
outweigh their fertility can help me and it's real simple and easy
to do this.
This way,
and here's my flock of chickens and here's the reason I have'em
like this and here's the dogs and oh,
look at this is the size.
And you really need to keep this out of the garden right and
here's my orchard and all the experiments with the trees.
We've done.
And this is why these died in of lived in,
you know I just take you and show you everything that I go through
ND and in even the maturing process viewers how you,
but your rabbit and here's how you butchered chicken India is what
you do with all the parts of those animals.
That's it.
It's really,
you know to 2 videos that they chose you all those components and
then again that library the resource library.
So you know I talk about a rainwater collection system.
We have a whole rainwater collection system e-book in their own
how to how to build one.
I talk about you know butchering a rabbit.
And then we have a whole article on how to channel rabbit hides
that we'll be able to use those effectively or you know we've got
5 different PDF different ways to compost fertility so important.
So that's what it's,
it's all about,
it's a grow your own groceries.com and its$37
for the 4th but I tell you what I'd really recommend you go to the
home-grown food summit and watch that presentation I have on how
to grow half year on food in your backyard in less than an hour a
day.
Take a look at that and say you know that'll really inspire you do
that you could do this,
you can get their systems up and running in about 6 months and be
producing half your own food in less than an hour a day by next
year.
I'd love to do it now Marjorie what will your next project be or
is it too soon to tell.
Well,
we've got a lot of irons in the fire and after this summit,
we're going to look at what will have the most impact,
to be able to have more home-grown food on every table,
we're looking at doing some stuff in partnership with Mike Adams
of the natural news and possibly working on some developing some
programs to get local food into schools.
We've got a whole,
you know I don't also developing that network of research
organizations.
There's a lot on the table,
we haven't yet figured that out.
We've been talking with Marjorie while craft of grow your own
groceries.com her DVD Guide to Growing in your own backyard is a
bestseller,
her free YouTube videos and growing your own food a really popular
and Marjorie recently organized the biggest online summit
dedicated to growing homegrown food I'll be putting links to all
of that in my shell blog equal shot.info Marjorie.
Thank you so much for helping all of us.
Alex.
Thanks for having they are.
I really appreciate it.
I'm Alex Smith reporting for Radio Eco Shah.
I'm dropping my own garden right now with raised beds,
a better compost bin nets for the raspberries and 80 inches of
mulch all around.
Find all our past programs as MP3 downloads at our website eco
shark.org.
Don't forget to follow up on links for this week show in my weekly
blog published Wednesday that it shock.info or listen to the sound
card page had sown cloud.com/Radio Eco shock.
I'm a locksmith.
Thank you for listening and I hope we will get together again next