0:00:05.214,0:00:06.576 - Carl Sagan is one of the preeminent 0:00:06.576,0:00:07.959 astronomers of our time. 0:00:07.959,0:00:09.482 He is known for bringing the heavens 0:00:09.482,0:00:12.609 to our living rooms with[br]his PBS series Cosmos. 0:00:12.609,0:00:15.436 His latest work is The[br]Demon-Haunted World, 0:00:15.436,0:00:17.641 Science as a Candle in the Dark. 0:00:17.641,0:00:19.788 It explores the country's[br]growing fascination 0:00:19.788,0:00:22.476 with pseudo-science,[br]astrology, faith healers, 0:00:22.476,0:00:24.933 the supernatural and the[br]like, all superstitions 0:00:24.933,0:00:27.901 that he says threaten to[br]undermine true science. 0:00:27.901,0:00:29.249 I am pleased to have him here 0:00:29.249,0:00:30.928 and I also take note of the fact 0:00:30.928,0:00:33.182 that he is a David Duncan[br]professor of astronomy 0:00:33.182,0:00:35.681 and space sciences and[br]director of the Laboratory 0:00:35.681,0:00:37.962 for Planetary Studies[br]at Cornell University, 0:00:37.962,0:00:39.233 distinguished visiting scientist 0:00:39.233,0:00:40.928 of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, 0:00:40.928,0:00:42.515 California Institute of Technology 0:00:42.515,0:00:44.886 and co-planner and president[br]of The Planetary Society, 0:00:44.886,0:00:47.461 the largest space interest[br]group in the world, 0:00:47.461,0:00:49.242 and a former Pulitzer Prize winner. 0:00:49.242,0:00:50.075 Welcome back today. 0:00:50.075,0:00:52.100 - Thank you Charlie.[br]- It's great to see you. 0:00:52.100,0:00:54.830 Listen to this, I hate to[br]read too much, but this is, 0:00:54.830,0:00:56.682 it's almost like they've[br]been reading your book. 0:00:56.682,0:01:00.849 This is from the New York[br]Times for Friday, May 24. 0:01:01.909,0:01:05.588 Americans flaunt science, a study finds. 0:01:05.588,0:01:09.426 Less than half of all[br]American adults understand 0:01:09.426,0:01:11.957 that the Earth orbits the sun yearly, 0:01:11.957,0:01:14.031 according to a basic science survey. 0:01:14.031,0:01:15.944 Nevertheless, there's[br]enthusiasm for research 0:01:15.944,0:01:18.096 except in some fields[br]like genetic engineering 0:01:18.096,0:01:20.614 and nuclear power that[br]are viewed with suspicion. 0:01:20.614,0:01:23.977 Only about 25% of American[br]adults get passing grades 0:01:23.977,0:01:25.905 in a National Science Foundation Survey 0:01:25.905,0:01:29.315 of what people know about[br]basic science and economics. 0:01:29.315,0:01:31.197 I mean, this is singing[br]your song, isn't it? 0:01:31.197,0:01:33.129 - Well, it's certainly[br]what I'm talking about 0:01:33.129,0:01:35.148 in The Demon-Haunted World. 0:01:35.148,0:01:39.315 My feeling, Charlie, is[br]that it's not pseudo-science 0:01:41.991,0:01:46.158 and superstition and New[br]Age, so-called, beliefs 0:01:46.739,0:01:50.426 and fundamentalist[br]zealotry are something new. 0:01:50.426,0:01:53.762 They've been with us for as[br]long as we've been human. 0:01:53.762,0:01:57.929 But we live in an age based[br]on science and technology 0:01:58.314,0:02:01.582 with formidable technological powers. 0:02:01.582,0:02:04.076 - Science and technology are propelling us 0:02:04.076,0:02:05.897 forward at accelerating rates. 0:02:05.897,0:02:07.651 - That's right. And if[br]we don't understand it 0:02:07.651,0:02:09.791 and by we I mean the general public 0:02:09.791,0:02:11.999 if it's something that[br]"oh, I'm not good at that. 0:02:11.999,0:02:13.616 "I don't anything about it," 0:02:13.616,0:02:16.158 then who is making all the[br]decisions about science 0:02:16.158,0:02:18.490 and technology that are going to determine 0:02:18.490,0:02:20.719 what kind of future our children live in? 0:02:20.719,0:02:23.697 Just some members of Congress? 0:02:23.697,0:02:25.873 But there's no more than a[br]handful of members of Congress 0:02:25.873,0:02:28.324 with any background in science at all. 0:02:28.324,0:02:31.061 And the Republican[br]Congress has just abolished 0:02:31.061,0:02:34.727 its own office of technology assessment, 0:02:34.727,0:02:36.887 the organization that[br]gave them bipartisan, 0:02:36.887,0:02:39.089 competent advice on[br]science and technology. 0:02:39.089,0:02:41.367 They say "we don't want to know. 0:02:41.367,0:02:42.922 "Don't tell us about[br]science and technology." 0:02:42.922,0:02:44.995 - Surprising, because Gingrich[br]is genuinely interested, 0:02:44.995,0:02:48.055 I think--[br]- He is, no question. 0:02:48.055,0:02:49.478 - Out of his own intellectual curiosity. 0:02:49.478,0:02:51.239 Does the president still[br]have a science adviser 0:02:51.239,0:02:52.331 at the White House?[br]- He does, 0:02:52.331,0:02:53.164 he does, John Gibbons 0:02:53.164,0:02:55.993 and the vice president is[br]scientifically literate. 0:02:55.993,0:03:00.160 - He's well known for being[br]scientifically a science maven. 0:03:00.205,0:03:01.569 I mean, you blast them all, 0:03:01.569,0:03:05.736 creationists, Christian Scientists[br]who you say would rather 0:03:06.510,0:03:09.565 allow their children to suffer 0:03:09.565,0:03:12.423 than give them insulin or antibiotics. 0:03:12.423,0:03:15.106 Astrologers come in for[br]particular scorn on your part. 0:03:15.106,0:03:15.939 (laughing) 0:03:15.939,0:03:18.354 - Well, I wouldn't say[br]scorn, just derision. 0:03:18.354,0:03:20.332 - Derision.[br](laughing) 0:03:20.332,0:03:22.974 A more generous version of scorn. 0:03:22.974,0:03:24.818 But what's the danger of all this? 0:03:24.818,0:03:26.472 I mean, you know, this[br]is not the thing that-- 0:03:26.472,0:03:27.619 - There's two kinds of dangers. 0:03:27.619,0:03:30.332 One is what I just talked about, 0:03:30.332,0:03:32.408 that we've arranged this[br]society based on science 0:03:32.408,0:03:35.317 and technology in which[br]nobody understands anything 0:03:35.317,0:03:37.307 about science and technology, 0:03:37.307,0:03:41.474 and this combustible mixture[br]of ignorance and power, 0:03:42.292,0:03:45.599 sooner or later, is going[br]to blow up in our faces. 0:03:45.599,0:03:47.384 I mean who is running the science 0:03:47.384,0:03:49.210 and technology in a democracy, 0:03:49.210,0:03:51.125 if the people don't[br]know anything about it? 0:03:51.125,0:03:55.292 And the second reason that[br]I'm worried about this 0:03:55.586,0:03:59.319 is that science is more[br]than a body of knowledge. 0:03:59.319,0:04:03.486 It's a way of thinking, a way[br]of skeptically interrogating 0:04:03.606,0:04:07.773 the universe with a fine[br]understanding of human fallibility. 0:04:08.105,0:04:11.938 If we are not able to[br]ask skeptical questions, 0:04:13.219,0:04:17.161 to interrogate those who tell[br]us that something is true, 0:04:17.161,0:04:20.266 to be skeptical of those in authority, 0:04:20.266,0:04:24.242 then we're up for grabs[br]for the next charlatan, 0:04:24.242,0:04:27.835 political or religious,[br]who comes ambling along. 0:04:27.835,0:04:31.301 It's a thing that Jefferson[br]laid great stress on. 0:04:31.301,0:04:35.468 It wasn't enough, he said,[br]to enshrine some rights 0:04:35.472,0:04:38.145 in a Constitution or a Bill of Rights. 0:04:38.145,0:04:42.226 The people had to be educated[br]and they had to practice 0:04:42.226,0:04:44.511 their skepticism and their education. 0:04:44.511,0:04:47.214 Otherwise we don't run the government, 0:04:47.214,0:04:49.036 the government runs us. 0:04:49.036,0:04:52.822 - Jefferson was amazing in[br]his devotion to science. 0:04:52.822,0:04:54.100 - Absolutely.[br]- We think of Jefferson 0:04:54.100,0:04:56.647 as this man who was literate 0:04:56.647,0:05:00.814 and who was a passionate[br]articulator of freedom, 0:05:01.307,0:05:03.512 but if you go to Monticello--[br]- Exactly. 0:05:03.512,0:05:06.982 - What you appreciate is he[br]was at heart a scientist, 0:05:06.982,0:05:09.982 a botanist, an architect, geologist. 0:05:11.212,0:05:13.296 And if you, Meriwether Lewis, 0:05:13.296,0:05:16.729 as we now know from Steven Ambrose, 0:05:16.729,0:05:20.039 he wanted him to go out[br]and do experimentations 0:05:20.039,0:05:21.760 and explore and be skeptical 0:05:21.760,0:05:25.927 and find answers to passages[br]and explore the West. 0:05:26.067,0:05:26.900 - Exactly right. 0:05:26.900,0:05:29.530 And there was also an economic grail 0:05:29.530,0:05:32.310 there if the northwest passage was found. 0:05:32.310,0:05:36.310 Jefferson said that he[br]was at heart a scientist, 0:05:37.289,0:05:39.638 that he would have loved[br]to have been a scientist. 0:05:39.638,0:05:42.870 But there were certain[br]events happening in America 0:05:42.870,0:05:45.771 that called to him, and[br]so he devoted his life 0:05:45.771,0:05:46.604 to that kind of politics. 0:05:46.604,0:05:48.706 - A revolution.[br]- Indeed. 0:05:48.706,0:05:52.873 So that generations later[br]people could be scientists. 0:05:53.537,0:05:54.370 - Yeah. 0:05:54.370,0:05:57.868 Have we, the point is made,[br]and maybe by you, you know, 0:05:57.868,0:05:59.217 is that when's the last[br]time we had a president 0:05:59.217,0:06:01.141 who made a speech about science? 0:06:01.141,0:06:03.107 - I say that.[br]- Yeah. 0:06:03.107,0:06:05.607 It is this notion that science 0:06:06.896,0:06:10.034 is not of great interest[br]to us in some sense, 0:06:10.034,0:06:12.830 that somehow we don't want to learn. 0:06:12.830,0:06:16.997 - You see, people read the[br]stock market quotations 0:06:17.157,0:06:18.664 and financial pages. 0:06:18.664,0:06:20.470 Look how complex that is and-- 0:06:20.470,0:06:21.978 - [Charlie] Because they[br]know the direct connection 0:06:21.978,0:06:23.439 to their own--[br]- There's a motivation. 0:06:23.439,0:06:26.223 But they're capable of it,[br]large numbers of people. 0:06:26.223,0:06:29.237 People are able to look[br]at sports statistics. 0:06:29.237,0:06:31.221 Look how many people can do that. 0:06:31.221,0:06:34.121 Understanding science is not[br]more difficult than that. 0:06:34.121,0:06:36.910 It does not involve greater[br]intellectual activities. 0:06:36.910,0:06:40.577 But the thing about[br]science is first of all, 0:06:41.494,0:06:44.376 it's after the way the universe really is 0:06:44.376,0:06:47.087 and not what makes us feel good. 0:06:47.087,0:06:50.245 And a lot of the competing doctrines 0:06:50.245,0:06:54.309 are after what feels[br]good and not what's true. 0:06:54.309,0:06:55.566 - Okay, but you've got to make, 0:06:55.566,0:06:57.166 I'm not sure you'll go this far with me, 0:06:57.166,0:06:59.403 but I mean there's, a lot of[br]that is about feeling good 0:06:59.403,0:07:01.776 and there's a lot of that[br]that's about hocus pocus. 0:07:01.776,0:07:04.961 But at the same time, there[br]are millions of people 0:07:04.961,0:07:08.794 who understand science[br]does not prove religion 0:07:09.646,0:07:12.920 because religion is faith-based. 0:07:12.920,0:07:15.871 Therefore, you should[br]not deny the value of it 0:07:15.871,0:07:18.288 because it is faith-based[br]and not science based. 0:07:18.288,0:07:21.337 - But let's look a little[br]more deeply into that. 0:07:21.337,0:07:22.844 What is faith? 0:07:22.844,0:07:25.910 It is belief in the absence of evidence. 0:07:25.910,0:07:29.236 Now, I don't propose to tell[br]anybody what to believe, 0:07:29.236,0:07:33.403 but for me, believing when[br]there's no compelling evidence 0:07:34.211,0:07:35.332 is a mistake. 0:07:35.332,0:07:37.922 The idea is to withhold belief 0:07:37.922,0:07:40.303 until there is compelling evidence. 0:07:40.303,0:07:44.470 And if the universe does not[br]comply with our predisposition, 0:07:44.959,0:07:47.665 okay, then we have the[br]wrenching obligation 0:07:47.665,0:07:50.007 to accommodate to the way[br]the universe really is. 0:07:50.007,0:07:53.123 - But I think you, but I[br]mean, so you step forward 0:07:53.123,0:07:54.727 to say "I deny all religion 0:07:54.727,0:07:55.560 "because I can't see it[br]proved scientifically?" 0:07:55.560,0:07:57.801 - No, no, no, no no no. 0:07:57.801,0:07:59.478 - You see the value of[br]religious experience 0:07:59.478,0:08:03.284 and the value of reaching[br]for higher experiences? 0:08:03.284,0:08:07.451 - Let me say, religion deals[br]with history, with poetry, 0:08:11.484,0:08:15.484 with great literature,[br]with ethics, with morals, 0:08:17.234,0:08:21.401 including the morality of[br]treating compassionately 0:08:21.992,0:08:24.173 the least fortunate among us. 0:08:24.173,0:08:27.836 All of these are things that[br]I endorse whole heartedly. 0:08:27.836,0:08:31.477 Where religion gets into[br]trouble is in those cases 0:08:31.477,0:08:35.448 that it pretends to know[br]something about science. 0:08:35.448,0:08:37.736 The science in the Bible, for example, 0:08:37.736,0:08:41.385 was acquired by the Jews[br]from the Babylonians 0:08:41.385,0:08:45.415 during the Babylonian captivity of 600 BC. 0:08:45.415,0:08:47.311 That was the best science[br]on the planet then. 0:08:47.311,0:08:49.601 But we've learned something since then. 0:08:49.601,0:08:52.434 Roman Catholicism, Reform Judaism, 0:08:54.600,0:08:58.247 most of the mainstream[br]Protestant denominations 0:08:58.247,0:09:01.270 have no difficulty with the idea 0:09:01.270,0:09:04.001 that humans have evolved[br]from other creatures, 0:09:04.001,0:09:08.168 that the Earth is 4.6 billion[br]years old, the Big Bang. 0:09:08.770,0:09:10.603 They don't have any trouble with that. 0:09:10.603,0:09:14.770 The trouble comes with people[br]who are Biblical literalists 0:09:14.976,0:09:18.143 who believe that the Bible is dictated 0:09:19.357,0:09:21.929 by the Creator of the Universe 0:09:21.929,0:09:24.182 to an unerring stenographer. 0:09:24.182,0:09:25.109 - [Charlie] And so therefore they-- 0:09:25.109,0:09:27.568 - And has no metaphor or allegory in it. 0:09:27.568,0:09:29.670 - And from there, they[br]make their political 0:09:29.670,0:09:32.195 and economic choices, and social choices. 0:09:32.195,0:09:33.317 - And scientific. 0:09:33.317,0:09:34.938 - And scientific choices and scientific. 0:09:34.938,0:09:37.122 And that's part of your[br]problem with that idea. 0:09:37.122,0:09:37.955 - [Carl] Exactly. 0:09:37.955,0:09:39.571 - It is that because[br]for the wrong reasons, 0:09:39.571,0:09:41.387 we make the wrong choices about science. 0:09:41.387,0:09:42.220 - That's right. 0:09:42.220,0:09:44.053 So who is more humble? 0:09:45.117,0:09:48.651 The scientist who looks at the universe 0:09:48.651,0:09:50.304 with an open mind and accepts 0:09:50.304,0:09:52.553 whatever the universe has to teach us, 0:09:52.553,0:09:55.258 or somebody who says[br]everything in this book 0:09:55.258,0:09:58.774 must be considered the literal truth 0:09:58.774,0:10:01.620 and nevermind the fallibility[br]of all the human beings 0:10:01.620,0:10:04.048 involved in the writing of this book. 0:10:04.048,0:10:05.653 - Okay, I mean, I accept that, but I also, 0:10:05.653,0:10:07.812 the argument that would be[br]made by many is that, you know, 0:10:07.812,0:10:11.684 you don't have to, whether[br]a specific scientific act 0:10:11.684,0:10:15.851 took place as described by[br]some Biblical writer is not, 0:10:16.273,0:10:19.566 is not at the heart of the religious faith 0:10:19.566,0:10:21.247 and the religious experience. 0:10:21.247,0:10:24.087 - Some people agree with[br]you and some people don't. 0:10:24.087,0:10:25.956 Some people think that every jot 0:10:25.956,0:10:28.003 and tittle in the Bible is essential. 0:10:28.003,0:10:31.704 You throw one thing away[br]to allegory or metaphor, 0:10:31.704,0:10:34.452 then it's up to everybody[br]to make their own decisions. 0:10:34.452,0:10:36.735 - Then are we, this, 0:10:36.735,0:10:39.798 a lot of this has to do with[br]science in the United States. 0:10:39.798,0:10:41.128 Are we different than other nations? 0:10:41.128,0:10:42.608 - No, absolutely not. 0:10:42.608,0:10:44.858 You can see this worldwide. 0:10:45.846,0:10:49.513 In India, there's a[br]madness about astrology, 0:10:50.754,0:10:52.529 in Britain, it's ghosts, 0:10:52.529,0:10:55.642 in Germany, it's rays[br]coming up from the Earth 0:10:55.642,0:10:59.137 that can only be detected by dousers. 0:10:59.137,0:11:03.042 Every country has its own specialties. 0:11:03.042,0:11:06.122 We seem to be fascinated[br]by UFOs right now. 0:11:06.122,0:11:07.105 But one thing.[br]- What is that, 0:11:07.105,0:11:09.327 before you leave UFOs.[br](laughing) 0:11:09.327,0:11:11.887 Tell me about you and Professor Mack. 0:11:11.887,0:11:14.442 - John Mack is a professor[br]of psychiatry at Harvard 0:11:14.442,0:11:17.673 who I've known for many years. 0:11:17.673,0:11:21.840 We were arrested together at[br]the Nevada Nuclear Test Site 0:11:22.141,0:11:24.874 protesting US testing in the face 0:11:24.874,0:11:27.707 of a Soviet moratorium on testing. 0:11:28.710,0:11:30.814 And many years ago, he asked me 0:11:30.814,0:11:33.384 "what is there in this UFO business? 0:11:33.384,0:11:34.828 "Is there anything to it?" 0:11:34.828,0:11:36.912 And I said "absolutely nothing, except, 0:11:36.912,0:11:39.108 "of course, for a psychiatrist." 0:11:39.108,0:11:40.803 He is a psychiatrist. 0:11:40.803,0:11:42.418 Well, he looked into it 0:11:42.418,0:11:46.585 and decided that there was[br]so much emotional energy 0:11:48.530,0:11:51.682 in the reports of people[br]who claimed to be abducted 0:11:51.682,0:11:55.849 that it couldn't possibly be[br]some psychological aberration, 0:11:56.360,0:11:58.197 that it had to be true. 0:11:58.197,0:12:00.970 He believed his patients. 0:12:00.970,0:12:03.767 I do not believe his patients. 0:12:03.767,0:12:07.934 Many of these stories are about[br]waking up from a deep sleep 0:12:09.354,0:12:13.521 and finding your bed surrounded[br]by three or four short, 0:12:14.732,0:12:18.899 dour, gray and sexually obsessed[br]beings who then take you 0:12:19.538,0:12:23.705 to their spaceship after they[br]slither you through your wall, 0:12:23.884,0:12:27.260 and perform a variety of objectionable, 0:12:27.260,0:12:29.175 sexual experiments on you. 0:12:29.175,0:12:33.008 - But here we have Dr.[br]Carl Sagan, astronomer, 0:12:38.249,0:12:40.542 versus Dr. John, I mean[br]Doctor, what's his first name? 0:12:40.542,0:12:42.875 - John Mack.[br]- John Mack, MD. 0:12:44.642,0:12:45.809 - No question. 0:12:46.706,0:12:48.539 So what's the problem? 0:12:49.728,0:12:51.612 - He's a scientist.[br]- How can scientists disagree? 0:12:51.612,0:12:52.921 - He's a scientist.[br]- Is that what you're asking? 0:12:52.921,0:12:54.033 - Well, no. I'm asking how could, 0:12:54.033,0:12:55.311 I mean what do you think of this man 0:12:55.311,0:12:56.217 coming to these conclusions? 0:12:56.217,0:12:59.113 - I think he is not using[br]the scientific method 0:12:59.113,0:13:01.176 in approaching his issue. 0:13:01.176,0:13:02.616 - And were you constantly, I mean, 0:13:02.616,0:13:05.395 I assume you come at him with[br]both barrels in conversations. 0:13:05.395,0:13:07.480 - And in The Demon-Haunted World. 0:13:07.480,0:13:09.062 - [Charlie] And he says? 0:13:09.062,0:13:13.168 - He says I don't appreciate[br]the emotional force-- 0:13:13.168,0:13:15.751 - You don't?[br]- Of these reports. 0:13:17.381,0:13:21.172 But many people awaken from a nightmare 0:13:21.172,0:13:23.672 with profound emotional force. 0:13:24.511,0:13:26.352 That doesn't mean that[br]the nightmare is true, 0:13:26.352,0:13:28.562 it means something went[br]on inside our heads. 0:13:28.562,0:13:30.612 - You were making a point[br]before I jumped the gun, Mack. 0:13:30.612,0:13:31.445 - Oh, yeah. 0:13:31.445,0:13:34.168 What I wanted to say is going back 0:13:34.168,0:13:37.945 to the question of adequate evidence 0:13:37.945,0:13:42.112 on something that's[br]emotionally really pulling you. 0:13:43.088,0:13:47.005 I lost both my parents[br]about 12 or 15 years ago 0:13:48.166,0:13:50.696 and I had a great relationship with them. 0:13:50.696,0:13:52.056 I really miss them. 0:13:52.056,0:13:56.211 I would love to believe that their spirits 0:13:56.211,0:13:58.639 were around somewhere. 0:13:58.639,0:14:00.034 And I'd give almost anything 0:14:00.034,0:14:03.284 to spend five minutes a year with them. 0:14:04.158,0:14:06.167 - Do you hear their voices ever? 0:14:06.167,0:14:07.291 - Sometimes. 0:14:07.291,0:14:11.271 About six or eight times since[br]their death I've heard it. 0:14:11.271,0:14:15.438 - "Carl," just in the voice[br]of my father or my mother. 0:14:16.105,0:14:18.773 Now, I don't think that means[br]that they're in the next room. 0:14:18.773,0:14:20.908 I think it means that--[br]- They're in your head. 0:14:20.908,0:14:22.770 - I've had an auditory hallucination. 0:14:22.770,0:14:26.294 I was with them so long, I[br]heard their voices so often. 0:14:26.294,0:14:27.745 Why shouldn't I be able to make 0:14:27.745,0:14:30.545 a vivid recollection of them? 0:14:30.545,0:14:32.096 - Here's what's interesting[br]about this for me, 0:14:32.096,0:14:34.967 I mean, you won't see this, but[br]I'll throw it at you anyway. 0:14:34.967,0:14:39.134 You convinced me a long time[br]ago that it was arrogant 0:14:39.327,0:14:42.621 for me or for anyone else to believe 0:14:42.621,0:14:46.204 that there wasn't some[br]life outside of our, 0:14:47.160,0:14:48.493 - To exclude the possibility. 0:14:48.493,0:14:52.017 - To exclude the[br]possibility was an arrogance 0:14:52.017,0:14:53.368 of intellect that we should not assume. 0:14:53.368,0:14:55.069 - [Carl] I still believe so. 0:14:55.069,0:14:56.662 - You couldn't prove it, you[br]didn't know it was there, 0:14:56.662,0:14:58.797 but the arrogance--[br]- Right. 0:14:58.797,0:14:59.632 We don't know if it's there, 0:14:59.632,0:15:00.649 we don't know if it's not there. 0:15:00.649,0:15:01.566 Let's look. 0:15:03.705,0:15:07.510 - And if you take that, why can't you say 0:15:07.510,0:15:08.821 "there's a lot we don't know. 0:15:08.821,0:15:11.988 "There's a lot of power[br]there that we don't know." 0:15:11.988,0:15:14.685 - It's what I believe,[br]but that doesn't mean 0:15:14.685,0:15:18.602 that every fraudulent[br]claim has to be accepted. 0:15:22.564,0:15:26.608 We demand the most rigorous[br]standards of evidence, 0:15:26.608,0:15:29.161 especially on what's important to us. 0:15:29.161,0:15:32.957 So if some guy comes up to me[br]and, a channeler or a medium 0:15:32.957,0:15:35.526 "I can put you in touch[br]with your parents." 0:15:35.526,0:15:39.693 Well, because I want so[br]terribly to believe that, 0:15:40.057,0:15:44.224 I know I have to reach in for[br]added reserves of skepticism 0:15:44.568,0:15:48.735 because I'm likely to be[br]fooled, and much more minor, 0:15:49.108,0:15:50.265 to have my money taken. 0:15:50.265,0:15:51.884 - [Charlie] Well, is it JZ Knight was it?. 0:15:51.884,0:15:53.215 - Yeah, exactly. 0:15:53.215,0:15:54.986 She has a guy named Ramtha 0:15:54.986,0:15:57.454 who's 10,000 years old or something. 0:15:57.454,0:15:58.704 - 35.[br]- 35, yes. 0:16:00.596,0:16:02.867 And he tells you lots of things 0:16:02.867,0:16:06.117 but nothing about what life[br]was like 35,000 years ago. 0:16:06.117,0:16:08.167 - [Charlie] Shirley Maclaine believes. 0:16:08.167,0:16:11.589 - Shirley Maclaine believes[br]that Ramtha was her brother. 0:16:11.589,0:16:13.839 (laughing) 0:16:14.696,0:16:18.504 - Things like the Loch Ness[br]monster and all of that. 0:16:18.504,0:16:20.421 - Again--[br]- Photographs. 0:16:20.421,0:16:21.716 - All fakes. 0:16:21.716,0:16:24.466 I mean the most famous photograph 0:16:25.552,0:16:26.884 has now been shown to be a fake, 0:16:26.884,0:16:29.801 but could there be a unknown mammal 0:16:31.027,0:16:35.194 or even reptile of large[br]dimension swimming in an Irish, 0:16:36.105,0:16:37.557 in a Scottish lake? 0:16:37.557,0:16:38.467 Sure there could. 0:16:38.467,0:16:39.300 That we don't know about? 0:16:39.300,0:16:40.520 Sure there could, who says no? 0:16:40.520,0:16:41.353 - [Charlie] But nobody-- 0:16:41.353,0:16:44.221 - But the evidence does not support it, 0:16:44.221,0:16:45.966 does not demonstrate it. 0:16:45.966,0:16:48.007 So do we say, "oh, ridiculous," 0:16:48.007,0:16:49.156 no we don't do that. 0:16:49.156,0:16:52.906 We say unproved, which[br]is a Scottish verdict. 0:16:53.897,0:16:58.064 - Some reviewers differ with[br]your conclusions on this point 0:16:58.704,0:17:00.828 that you seem to say it's growing, 0:17:00.828,0:17:02.545 this kind of pseudo science and-- 0:17:02.545,0:17:03.629 - No. 0:17:03.629,0:17:04.531 Sorry to interrupt. 0:17:04.531,0:17:07.419 I don't, this is part of being human. 0:17:07.419,0:17:09.710 Humans have had this[br]way of magical thinking 0:17:09.710,0:17:11.358 through all of our history. 0:17:11.358,0:17:15.484 The problem is that today the technology 0:17:15.484,0:17:19.444 has reached formidable, maybe[br]even awesome proportions, 0:17:19.444,0:17:23.611 and so the dangers of[br]thinking this way are larger. 0:17:23.896,0:17:26.243 Not that this is a new kind of thinking. 0:17:26.243,0:17:29.311 - You are living with myelo displasia. 0:17:29.311,0:17:32.336 - Or I have been.[br]- You have been. 0:17:32.336,0:17:34.155 It's in remission. 0:17:34.155,0:17:35.044 Are you-- 0:17:35.044,0:17:39.211 - Well, you know, with[br]diseases of this sort 0:17:39.245,0:17:43.109 and in all cancers--[br]- Cancer of the bone marrow? 0:17:43.109,0:17:46.192 - Myelo displasia is not exactly[br]cancer of the bone marrow, 0:17:46.192,0:17:50.359 but if untreated, it[br]inevitably leads to leukemia. 0:17:51.482,0:17:53.261 And the trouble with all these diseases 0:17:53.261,0:17:57.189 is you never know that[br]you've got every last cell. 0:17:57.189,0:17:59.787 You can only detect[br]down to a certain level. 0:17:59.787,0:18:02.291 But down to the level[br]that anybody can detect 0:18:02.291,0:18:06.004 in terms of how I feel and[br]my stamina and all that, 0:18:06.004,0:18:07.581 it seems to be gone. 0:18:07.581,0:18:11.748 I'm very lucky.[br]- Because you had a sister 0:18:11.777,0:18:15.582 who enabled you to have[br]a bone marrow transplant. 0:18:15.582,0:18:16.415 - That's one. 0:18:16.415,0:18:19.820 And also the enormous[br]advances in scientific, 0:18:19.820,0:18:23.431 in medical science in[br]just the last few years. 0:18:23.431,0:18:25.769 If I had had this thing[br]five or 10 years ago, 0:18:25.769,0:18:27.732 I would be dead, sure as shooting. 0:18:27.732,0:18:30.802 And then, finally, the love[br]and support of my family. 0:18:30.802,0:18:33.579 All of those played a central role. 0:18:33.579,0:18:35.236 - So you're optimistic? 0:18:35.236,0:18:39.236 - I'm very optimistic,[br]or at least very hopeful. 0:18:40.168,0:18:43.665 - And just share with us,[br]because of your sense of language 0:18:43.665,0:18:47.832 and your sense of understand[br]and being reflective 0:18:48.472,0:18:51.225 and introspective, what[br]does, what do you think about 0:18:51.225,0:18:53.212 and what does it do for you to-- 0:18:53.212,0:18:56.525 - I didn't have any[br]near death experiences, 0:18:56.525,0:18:58.497 I didn't have a religious conversion but-- 0:18:58.497,0:18:59.330 - [Charlie] But you thought about 0:18:59.330,0:19:00.758 what it would be like to die? 0:19:00.758,0:19:04.231 - Certainly and what it[br]would be like for my family. 0:19:04.231,0:19:08.398 And, I didn't much think about[br]what it would be like for me, 0:19:08.829,0:19:11.822 because I don't think it's[br]likely there's anything 0:19:11.822,0:19:14.294 that you think about after you're dead. 0:19:14.294,0:19:15.493 - That's it?[br](laughing) 0:19:15.493,0:19:17.063 - Yeah a long, dreamless sleep. 0:19:17.063,0:19:18.500 I'd love to believe the opposite, 0:19:18.500,0:19:19.736 but I don't know of any evidence. 0:19:19.736,0:19:21.810 But one thing.[br]- Faith, Carl, faith. 0:19:21.810,0:19:25.977 - One thing that it has[br]done is to enhance my sense 0:19:27.638,0:19:31.805 of appreciation for the beauty[br]of life and of the universe 0:19:34.591,0:19:37.770 and the sheer joy of being alive. 0:19:37.770,0:19:41.937 - You had a healthy portion[br]of that before this, 0:19:42.282,0:19:44.721 but even you it happened to. 0:19:44.721,0:19:46.790 - Oh, there's no question.[br]- An appreciation-- 0:19:46.790,0:19:50.040 - Every moment, every inanimate object, 0:19:51.596,0:19:55.763 to say nothing of the exquisite[br]complexity of living beings. 0:19:58.924,0:20:01.461 Yeah, you imagine missing it all 0:20:01.461,0:20:04.424 and suddenly it's so much more precious. 0:20:04.424,0:20:05.519 - [Charlie] May you live a long time. 0:20:05.519,0:20:06.602 Thank you very much.[br]- Thank you Charlie. 0:20:06.602,0:20:07.998 - It's a pleasure.[br]- Same here. 0:20:07.998,0:20:09.056 - Carl Sagan. 0:20:09.056,0:20:11.121 Science as a candle in the dark. 0:20:11.121,0:20:15.038 The title of the book is[br]A Demon-Haunted World. 0:20:16.006,0:20:20.089 Thank you for joining us[br]we'll see you next time.