[Script Info]
Title: 
[Events]
Format: Layer, Start, End, Style, Name, MarginL, MarginR, MarginV, Effect, Text
Dialogue: 0,0:00:04.56,0:00:07.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Good evening and welcome everyone.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:07.62,0:00:11.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm Mehreen Faruqi and I'm a Greens MP in State Parliament.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:11.33,0:00:14.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I have the carriage of the Portfolio for
Dialogue: 0,0:00:14.76,0:00:17.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Status of Women for the Greens
Dialogue: 0,0:00:17.09,0:00:20.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I also have the privilege tonight of being your MC.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:20.26,0:00:21.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'll start by acknowledging
Dialogue: 0,0:00:21.38,0:00:23.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the traditional owners of the land we're meeting on
Dialogue: 0,0:00:23.74,0:00:27.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Gadigal people and pay my respect to the elders past and present.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:27.72,0:00:30.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This land always has been and always will be
Dialogue: 0,0:00:30.17,0:00:32.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Aboriginal land.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:32.46,0:00:34.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'd also like to acknowledge a couple of my colleagues
Dialogue: 0,0:00:34.43,0:00:36.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from NSW Parliament:
Dialogue: 0,0:00:36.60,0:00:38.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Greg Piper, who's an Independent in the lower house
Dialogue: 0,0:00:38.96,0:00:41.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and Dr John Kay, who's a Greens in the upper house.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:41.81,0:00:43.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Thank you both for coming.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:43.58,0:00:46.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And thank you all of you for making time tonight
Dialogue: 0,0:00:46.30,0:00:49.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to come and participate in this community forum
Dialogue: 0,0:00:49.39,0:00:53.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which really is about helping us unpack some of the implications
Dialogue: 0,0:00:53.49,0:00:56.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of this fetal personhood law
Dialogue: 0,0:00:56.03,0:00:58.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is also known as "Zoe's Law"
Dialogue: 0,0:00:58.40,0:01:01.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that we have in front of Parliament at the moment.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:01.89,0:01:05.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This law is being debated in NSW Parliament at the moment
Dialogue: 0,0:01:05.47,0:01:08.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so I think it's really timely that we talk about it
Dialogue: 0,0:01:08.10,0:01:11.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,discuss it and get enough information about it
Dialogue: 0,0:01:11.12,0:01:13.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to see why it is actually inappropriate
Dialogue: 0,0:01:13.60,0:01:16.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and dangerous for women's rights.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:16.26,0:01:18.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The media has given quite a bit of coverage
Dialogue: 0,0:01:18.44,0:01:20.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the last couple of months
Dialogue: 0,0:01:20.15,0:01:23.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,also NSW Bar Association and
Dialogue: 0,0:01:23.04,0:01:24.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Australian Medical Association
Dialogue: 0,0:01:24.70,0:01:27.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Family Planning NSW and the Greens
Dialogue: 0,0:01:27.74,0:01:30.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have come out and clearly stated their position
Dialogue: 0,0:01:30.61,0:01:32.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in opposition to this Bill.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:32.72,0:01:35.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There's also a coalition, a group formed by a coalition,
Dialogue: 0,0:01:35.73,0:01:38.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of women's groups called Our Bodies Our Choice
Dialogue: 0,0:01:38.56,0:01:40.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who are running the campaign
Dialogue: 0,0:01:40.18,0:01:43.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,also to provide information to the community
Dialogue: 0,0:01:43.14,0:01:46.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to lobby the MPs, to provide information to them
Dialogue: 0,0:01:46.24,0:01:48.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about the implications of the bill.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:48.22,0:01:49.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And tonight we're really fortunate
Dialogue: 0,0:01:49.96,0:01:53.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to have three excellent speakers with us
Dialogue: 0,0:01:53.03,0:01:56.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who will take us through the legal, health and medical implications
Dialogue: 0,0:01:56.44,0:02:01.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as well as the consequences for women's rights of this particular bill.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:01.12,0:02:03.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Each of our guests is going to speak for about 10 to 15 minutes
Dialogue: 0,0:02:03.96,0:02:06.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and then we'll open up for about 30 minutes to 40 minutes
Dialogue: 0,0:02:06.38,0:02:08.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to have a discussion
Dialogue: 0,0:02:08.20,0:02:10.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and also to ask questions of our speakers.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:10.61,0:02:13.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We will be recording tonight's session
Dialogue: 0,0:02:13.39,0:02:16.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and we'll make a Youtube and put it up on our website
Dialogue: 0,0:02:16.45,0:02:19.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so if you have any issues being recorded
Dialogue: 0,0:02:19.08,0:02:20.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it will mainly be the speakers
Dialogue: 0,0:02:20.72,0:02:23.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but we might record you when you're asking your question
Dialogue: 0,0:02:23.87,0:02:25.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if you have any issues with that just let us know
Dialogue: 0,0:02:25.92,0:02:27.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and we'll edit you out.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:27.64,0:02:32.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,OK, so our first speaker for tonight is Julie Hamblin.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:32.38,0:02:34.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Julie is a lawyer with more than 20 years experience
Dialogue: 0,0:02:34.99,0:02:37.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,advising the public and private health sectors
Dialogue: 0,0:02:37.72,0:02:40.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on health law, medical negligence, clinical risk,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:40.68,0:02:43.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,bioethics and public health.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:43.08,0:02:46.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,She has held a number of government appointments in the health sector
Dialogue: 0,0:02:46.28,0:02:49.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,including the Australian Research Integrity Committee,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:49.50,0:02:54.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Australian National Council on HIV/AIDS and Related Diseases,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:54.97,0:02:58.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the board of the former Central Sydney Area Health Service.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:58.69,0:03:01.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In December 2012, Julie was appointed to
Dialogue: 0,0:03:01.06,0:03:04.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the NSW Clinical Ethics Advisory Panel.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:04.56,0:03:07.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Julie has a long standing interest in sexual and reproductive health,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:07.99,0:03:10.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and has undertaken consultancy work with
Dialogue: 0,0:03:10.44,0:03:13.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,HIV and related sexual health issues
Dialogue: 0,0:03:13.08,0:03:18.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in more than 20 countries, in Asia, the Pacific, Africa and Eastern Europe.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:18.04,0:03:19.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So please warmly welcome Julie Hamblin.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:19.82,0:03:26.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[applause]
Dialogue: 0,0:03:31.44,0:03:34.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Thank you Mehreen, thank you everyone for coming along tonight
Dialogue: 0,0:03:34.33,0:03:37.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to talk about this really important issue
Dialogue: 0,0:03:37.45,0:03:38.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's something that's very close to my heart
Dialogue: 0,0:03:38.91,0:03:41.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I, um, think it's so important that
Dialogue: 0,0:03:41.74,0:03:43.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we all understand exactly what is at stake
Dialogue: 0,0:03:43.58,0:03:47.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with the bill that is before NSW Parliament at the moment.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:47.06,0:03:49.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What I wanted to do in my comments is
Dialogue: 0,0:03:49.51,0:03:51.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to talk first of all very briefly about
Dialogue: 0,0:03:51.80,0:03:55.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,how the law currently regards fetuses
Dialogue: 0,0:03:55.63,0:04:00.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and why a legal person—, a fetal personhood law would be such a significant change
Dialogue: 0,0:04:00.75,0:04:02.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to the existing law.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:02.41,0:04:05.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then I want to spend a little bit more time
Dialogue: 0,0:04:05.62,0:04:11.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,talking particularly about the legal status
Dialogue: 0,0:04:11.01,0:04:14.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of abortion in NSW because this is one of the things
Dialogue: 0,0:04:14.11,0:04:19.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that I am particularly concerned about in relation to Zoe's Law
Dialogue: 0,0:04:19.59,0:04:24.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because we have a really uniquely precarious position
Dialogue: 0,0:04:24.12,0:04:26.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with abortion law in NSW.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:26.06,0:04:29.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And i think we all need to understand the fragility
Dialogue: 0,0:04:29.52,0:04:30.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of lawful abortion in this state
Dialogue: 0,0:04:30.83,0:04:33.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in order to realise just how risky it would be
Dialogue: 0,0:04:33.09,0:04:36.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if this bill goes through.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:36.90,0:04:38.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So just to give a little bit of a background
Dialogue: 0,0:04:38.71,0:04:43.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about how the law has traditionally regarded fetuses.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:43.11,0:04:48.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In short, the law in NSW has always adopted
Dialogue: 0,0:04:48.64,0:04:51.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what is known as the 'born alive' rule.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:51.33,0:04:55.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And what that says is that until
Dialogue: 0,0:04:55.36,0:05:00.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a child is born and takes a breath
Dialogue: 0,0:05:00.30,0:05:05.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the child is not to be regarded as a legal person.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:05.12,0:05:09.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so there are some situations around the edges
Dialogue: 0,0:05:09.21,0:05:12.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where the law has had to look at
Dialogue: 0,0:05:12.07,0:05:14.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,should there be changes made to the born alive rule?
Dialogue: 0,0:05:14.22,0:05:16.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Let's say for example, there have been cases where
Dialogue: 0,0:05:16.63,0:05:19.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a pregnant woman has been involved in a car accident
Dialogue: 0,0:05:19.51,0:05:22.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and has had, has sustained injuries
Dialogue: 0,0:05:22.72,0:05:26.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which has included an injury to her fetus.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:26.23,0:05:28.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the courts have held that if that fetus
Dialogue: 0,0:05:28.88,0:05:32.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,goes on to be born alive, hence the born alive rule,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:32.51,0:05:35.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,goes on to be born alive, the fetus as a person,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:35.37,0:05:37.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as a legal person after birth,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:37.38,0:05:39.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,will have the right to claim damages,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:39.61,0:05:46.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to be compensated for the injuries sustained while in his or her mother's womb.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:46.04,0:05:48.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But that legal right only crystallises,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:48.27,0:05:49.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and this is a really important point,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:49.80,0:05:54.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that legal right only crystallises once the child is born alive.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:54.34,0:05:57.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so although there is a recognition of
Dialogue: 0,0:05:57.17,0:05:59.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,injuries sustained while a fetus,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:59.27,0:06:03.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the principle of the born alive rule is maintained.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:03.77,0:06:05.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And there are numerous examples of that.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:05.56,0:06:08.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There was one I was reading about just a couple of weeks ago
Dialogue: 0,0:06:08.76,0:06:10.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in relation to the coroner's jurisdiction.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:10.74,0:06:12.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because under the coronial legislation
Dialogue: 0,0:06:12.95,0:06:16.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,certainly in NSW and I think in most states in Australia
Dialogue: 0,0:06:16.49,0:06:21.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the coroner has jurisdiction only to investigate deaths.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:21.52,0:06:23.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So if it's a stillbirth,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:23.44,0:06:26.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,under the Coroner's Act, the coroner doesn't have jurisdiction,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:26.22,0:06:30.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because you haven't had a person who has been born alive.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:30.48,0:06:34.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And there has been some debate about whether it would be appropriate
Dialogue: 0,0:06:34.67,0:06:37.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for the coroner's jurisdiction to be expanded
Dialogue: 0,0:06:37.36,0:06:39.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so that the coroner could investigate circumstances
Dialogue: 0,0:06:39.53,0:06:41.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,surrounding stillbirths as well as
Dialogue: 0,0:06:41.25,0:06:47.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,circumstances surrounding the deaths of children who have been born alive.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:47.49,0:06:49.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But that hasn't happened, and even in the literature about
Dialogue: 0,0:06:49.84,0:06:54.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a possible extension of the coronial jurisdiction to stillbirths
Dialogue: 0,0:06:54.62,0:06:56.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which would be much less concerning than
Dialogue: 0,0:06:56.68,0:07:00.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a full recognition of fetuses as a person
Dialogue: 0,0:07:00.85,0:07:03.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there has been opposition to that on the basis that
Dialogue: 0,0:07:03.17,0:07:06.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that would encroach upon the born alive rule
Dialogue: 0,0:07:06.60,0:07:10.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is considered to be a very important dividing line
Dialogue: 0,0:07:10.62,0:07:13.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as to why—, when and in what circumstances
Dialogue: 0,0:07:13.10,0:07:18.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the law should recognise someone as an individual person.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:18.21,0:07:19.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So that's a starting point.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:19.34,0:07:21.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We have in NSW the born alive rule,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:21.33,0:07:24.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it is a very strong and very well established legal principle.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:24.78,0:07:28.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I am certainly not aware of any other case,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:28.70,0:07:33.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and an example of a court decision or of legislation,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:33.04,0:07:36.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which has departed from the born alive rule.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:36.28,0:07:37.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[cough]
Dialogue: 0,0:07:37.99,0:07:39.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So that's the background that we have
Dialogue: 0,0:07:39.18,0:07:40.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when we look at Zoe's Law.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:40.25,0:07:44.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because Zoe's Law would be a radical departure from the born alive rule.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:44.53,0:07:46.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And all those who support it say
Dialogue: 0,0:07:46.58,0:07:50.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but it's only limited to the particular circumstances of
Dialogue: 0,0:07:50.13,0:07:55.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,grevous bodily harm offenses that it would relate to
Dialogue: 0,0:07:55.97,0:07:58.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but none the less, in legal terms,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:58.73,0:08:01.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it would be a very significant development
Dialogue: 0,0:08:01.07,0:08:03.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because it would be the first time that NSW law
Dialogue: 0,0:08:03.71,0:08:08.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,has recognised a fetus as a legal person.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:08.08,0:08:12.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that is a very significant change to the law.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:12.28,0:08:14.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Why does it matter?
Dialogue: 0,0:08:14.18,0:08:17.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,As I've said all those people who are supporting Zoe's Law
Dialogue: 0,0:08:17.74,0:08:20.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,say but it's limited to the circumstances of
Dialogue: 0,0:08:20.82,0:08:23.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,these particular grevious bodily harm offences,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:23.54,0:08:25.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it won't affect other areas of the law
Dialogue: 0,0:08:25.93,0:08:28.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,such as abortion.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:28.33,0:08:31.27,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I beleve that is simply an incorrect legal analysis.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:31.27,0:08:34.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I just wanted to spend the second part of my time
Dialogue: 0,0:08:34.58,0:08:38.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,um, going over a little bit of the background
Dialogue: 0,0:08:38.45,0:08:41.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what is the legal position of abortion in NSW.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:41.71,0:08:44.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And why given that background
Dialogue: 0,0:08:44.64,0:08:48.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,having a provision that recognises a fetus as a person
Dialogue: 0,0:08:48.73,0:08:53.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,even if it's only in the context of these particular sections of the criminal code
Dialogue: 0,0:08:53.40,0:08:58.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,why that would a threat to lawful abortion in this state.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:01.88,0:09:03.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, what do I have to do?
Dialogue: 0,0:09:03.10,0:09:04.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I've got to press Escape?
Dialogue: 0,0:09:13.80,0:09:16.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, what is the current abortion law in NSW?
Dialogue: 0,0:09:16.73,0:09:22.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Um, I can guarantee you, because I've done this a million times,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:22.25,0:09:25.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if you take a straw poll against your friends and colleagues,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:25.39,0:09:28.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and you say "Is abortion legal in NSW?"
Dialogue: 0,0:09:28.84,0:09:30.14,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The overwhelming majority of people will say
Dialogue: 0,0:09:30.14,0:09:32.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"of course it's lawful in NSW."
Dialogue: 0,0:09:32.34,0:09:37.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,People simply don't realise that abortion is still a crime in NSW.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:37.26,0:09:40.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,One of the major problems that we have doing abortion advocacy
Dialogue: 0,0:09:40.18,0:09:43.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is to convey to people that there is a problem.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:43.50,0:09:46.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because the majority of people think that it's all been sorted
Dialogue: 0,0:09:46.44,0:09:48.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that we have abortion on demand in NSW.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:48.42,0:09:54.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Sadly, the truth is a long way from that.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:54.82,0:09:57.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Abortion is still a criminal offence in NSW.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:57.69,0:10:01.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It always has been for as long as the Crimes Act has been in place,
Dialogue: 0,0:10:01.76,0:10:03.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is now well over 100 years
Dialogue: 0,0:10:03.54,0:10:07.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the offence has not changed over that time.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:08.78,0:10:15.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Ah, it's imported from the original British criminal code provisions.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:15.74,0:10:19.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it's an offence, I put up the wording of the offence on the slide there,
Dialogue: 0,0:10:19.35,0:10:24.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's an offence both for a woman who does something to herself
Dialogue: 0,0:10:24.92,0:10:26.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to procure her own miscarriage
Dialogue: 0,0:10:26.75,0:10:28.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is the wording that they use
Dialogue: 0,0:10:28.31,0:10:34.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and it's also a criminal offence for another person
Dialogue: 0,0:10:34.00,0:10:36.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to administer something, to perform a procedure
Dialogue: 0,0:10:36.63,0:10:39.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that brings about a woman's miscarriage.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:39.77,0:10:41.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[cough]
Dialogue: 0,0:10:41.34,0:10:44.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But the critical word, which you can see there in both those offences
Dialogue: 0,0:10:44.99,0:10:46.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is "unlawfully".
Dialogue: 0,0:10:46.96,0:10:48.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because it says
Dialogue: 0,0:10:48.28,0:10:51.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"whosoever unlawfully administers to herself"
Dialogue: 0,0:10:51.32,0:10:52.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or if you're a doctor or someone else
Dialogue: 0,0:10:52.31,0:10:57.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"whosoever unlawfully administers to a woman".
Dialogue: 0,0:10:57.07,0:11:02.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so the interpretation of a lawful abortion in NSW
Dialogue: 0,0:11:02.92,0:11:07.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,hinges on this one small word, "unlawfully".
Dialogue: 0,0:11:07.73,0:11:09.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it's quite an unusual provision
Dialogue: 0,0:11:09.60,0:11:12.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the context of the Crimes Act
Dialogue: 0,0:11:12.54,0:11:15.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because the Crimes Act doesn't define what "unlawfully" is.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:15.21,0:11:18.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In most of the other offences in the Crimes Act
Dialogue: 0,0:11:18.47,0:11:20.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it says "well, these are the elements of the offences,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:20.38,0:11:24.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and these are the things that might be a defence to a particular criminal offence."
Dialogue: 0,0:11:24.82,0:11:27.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It doesn't say that in relation to the abortion offences.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:27.51,0:11:32.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So that's a really significant problem to start with
Dialogue: 0,0:11:32.00,0:11:35.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in terms of getting clarity as to what the legal position is.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:35.56,0:11:37.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So what the law says is
Dialogue: 0,0:11:37.02,0:11:39.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"if you do something unlawfully it's a criminal offence."
Dialogue: 0,0:11:39.67,0:11:41.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Particularly unhelpful.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:41.40,0:11:45.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so in terms of deciding and determining
Dialogue: 0,0:11:45.04,0:11:47.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what really is lawful and what is not lawful
Dialogue: 0,0:11:47.90,0:11:50.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we have to look to how the courts have interpreted
Dialogue: 0,0:11:50.80,0:11:52.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that one word "unlawfully".
Dialogue: 0,0:11:53.72,0:11:56.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Um, there have not been many court decisions
Dialogue: 0,0:11:56.94,0:11:59.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but the ones that there have been
Dialogue: 0,0:11:59.60,0:12:02.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,— now why is that not turning on?
Dialogue: 0,0:12:02.01,0:12:04.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I've got to play that, don't I?
Dialogue: 0,0:12:08.04,0:12:08.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What's wrong?
Dialogue: 0,0:12:08.68,0:12:10.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,No it's not working.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:10.48,0:12:11.97,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Oh yes it is!
Dialogue: 0,0:12:11.97,0:12:15.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So the definition of unlawfully and
Dialogue: 0,0:12:15.44,0:12:19.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the way unlawfully has been interpreted by our courts
Dialogue: 0,0:12:19.05,0:12:22.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,goes back to two very old decisions
Dialogue: 0,0:12:22.20,0:12:24.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,one in 1969 in Victoria
Dialogue: 0,0:12:24.30,0:12:26.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and one in 1971 in NSW.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:26.56,0:12:29.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And what they've said in short,
Dialogue: 0,0:12:29.39,0:12:31.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I've put up the precise wording there,
Dialogue: 0,0:12:31.13,0:12:33.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what they have said in short is that
Dialogue: 0,0:12:33.32,0:12:41.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it will be lawful if the abortion is considered to be
Dialogue: 0,0:12:41.77,0:12:43.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is reasonably considered to be
Dialogue: 0,0:12:43.35,0:12:45.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,necessary to preserve the woman from
Dialogue: 0,0:12:45.50,0:12:48.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a serious danger to her life or her physical or mental health
Dialogue: 0,0:12:48.99,0:12:52.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and in the circumstances is not out of proportion to the danger.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:52.41,0:12:55.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So in short what you need to show in order to
Dialogue: 0,0:12:55.49,0:12:57.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,establish that an abortion is lawful
Dialogue: 0,0:12:57.49,0:12:58.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is that it's necessary to prevent
Dialogue: 0,0:12:58.92,0:13:02.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a serious risk to the life or health of the woman.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:02.76,0:13:05.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's known as the Menhennitt rules, the test.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:05.08,0:13:11.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And in NSW we had a case in 1971, R v Wald,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:11.29,0:13:14.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where that test was adopted.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:14.36,0:13:16.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Actually a very interesting background to that case.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:16.22,0:13:19.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It was, it was, quite a shocking set of circumstances
Dialogue: 0,0:13:19.11,0:13:20.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that gave rise to it.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:20.30,0:13:24.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Dr Wald was a doctor who ran a termination clinic
Dialogue: 0,0:13:24.35,0:13:26.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in Clovelly I think, somewhere in the eastern suburbs,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:26.80,0:13:30.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and there was a police raid on that clinic,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:30.36,0:13:31.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,without notice one day,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:31.96,0:13:33.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with women on the operating table
Dialogue: 0,0:13:33.64,0:13:35.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the middle of having terminations.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:35.94,0:13:43.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And Dr Wald was charged with unlawfully performing an abortion.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:43.19,0:13:48.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the main statement that we have of the law in NSW
Dialogue: 0,0:13:48.30,0:13:49.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,comes from that case,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:49.53,0:13:52.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and it's not even from an actual decision by the judge.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:52.07,0:13:54.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's from directions that the judge,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:54.16,0:13:57.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the criminal trial of Dr Wald, gave to the jury.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:57.26,0:14:00.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But what the judge did was to adopt the test
Dialogue: 0,0:14:00.13,0:14:05.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of serious risk to the life or health of the woman.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:05.94,0:14:09.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Since then we've only had a very very small number of cases.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:09.78,0:14:10.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that I guess is a good thing,
Dialogue: 0,0:14:10.91,0:14:13.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it shows there isn't a lot of appetite
Dialogue: 0,0:14:13.24,0:14:15.93,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to bring criminal prosecutions to court.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:15.93,0:14:19.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the cases that we have had by and large
Dialogue: 0,0:14:19.60,0:14:23.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have upheld the test in Wald,
Dialogue: 0,0:14:23.32,0:14:26.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which says that an abortion is lawful
Dialogue: 0,0:14:26.29,0:14:29.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if it is necessary to prevent a serious health to—
Dialogue: 0,0:14:29.38,0:14:31.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,er, serious risk to the life or health of the woman.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:31.83,0:14:34.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it's been expanded to acknowledge that there might be
Dialogue: 0,0:14:34.33,0:14:36.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,economic and social grounds on which
Dialogue: 0,0:14:36.20,0:14:39.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the continuation of the pregnancy might pose
Dialogue: 0,0:14:39.76,0:14:45.19,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a serious risk to the woman's health or life.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:45.19,0:14:49.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so everything seemed to have a sort of uneasy equilibrium
Dialogue: 0,0:14:49.24,0:14:52.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,until 2010 where in Queensland as you may have read
Dialogue: 0,0:14:52.58,0:14:55.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there was a prosecution brought against a young woman
Dialogue: 0,0:14:55.39,0:14:58.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who had a medical abortion at home
Dialogue: 0,0:14:58.84,0:15:02.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,using RU486, that she administered to herself.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:02.77,0:15:05.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And she was criminally charged under the Queensland criminal code
Dialogue: 0,0:15:05.47,0:15:07.77,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which was very similiar at that time to our code.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:07.77,0:15:09.99,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's since been amended to make it a little bit better,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:09.99,0:15:11.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not much but a little bit.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:11.92,0:15:17.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so she was charged with unlawfully procuring her own termination.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:17.22,0:15:18.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,She was acquitted by the jury
Dialogue: 0,0:15:18.44,0:15:19.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we don't have reasons
Dialogue: 0,0:15:19.31,0:15:21.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so we don't know exactly what the thinking was
Dialogue: 0,0:15:21.00,0:15:22.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the jury.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:22.54,0:15:24.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We have some hints
Dialogue: 0,0:15:24.86,0:15:26.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from the directions that the judge gave to the jury.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:26.94,0:15:28.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I can talk more about that later
Dialogue: 0,0:15:28.13,0:15:31.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I don't really have time to go into that now.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:31.56,0:15:32.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So she was acquitted and
Dialogue: 0,0:15:32.48,0:15:33.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that's a good thing.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:33.85,0:15:38.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But it certainly was a very stark reminder
Dialogue: 0,0:15:38.31,0:15:41.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of just how precarious a position we have
Dialogue: 0,0:15:41.59,0:15:43.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in NSW and Queensland
Dialogue: 0,0:15:43.38,0:15:47.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where we still have these outdated offences
Dialogue: 0,0:15:47.49,0:15:49.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in our criminal code
Dialogue: 0,0:15:49.01,0:15:51.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that can be brought into life at any time
Dialogue: 0,0:15:51.74,0:15:54.63,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if the circumstances come together
Dialogue: 0,0:15:54.63,0:15:57.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,such that uh, either a woman
Dialogue: 0,0:15:57.26,0:15:59.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or a medical practitioner,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:59.16,0:16:01.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,could be criminally charged.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:01.73,0:16:03.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[cough]
Dialogue: 0,0:16:03.22,0:16:06.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So just briefly, and to sum up,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:06.69,0:16:10.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,why is the existing abortion law so unsatisfactory?
Dialogue: 0,0:16:10.67,0:16:12.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, you know, where do you begin?
Dialogue: 0,0:16:12.08,0:16:13.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There are so many reasons.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:13.60,0:16:14.100,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,First of all, it remains a criminal offence,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:14.100,0:16:16.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and as I've said that's obviously a problem.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:16.96,0:16:20.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because this, the lawfulness depends upon
Dialogue: 0,0:16:20.91,0:16:24.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,how the courts interpret this word "unlawfully"
Dialogue: 0,0:16:24.30,0:16:26.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,on the facts of a particular case.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:26.68,0:16:28.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's a very unstable foundation
Dialogue: 0,0:16:28.71,0:16:31.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for lawful abortion in this state.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:31.91,0:16:35.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's subject to particular facts of the case
Dialogue: 0,0:16:35.12,0:16:37.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's subject to the personal inclinations
Dialogue: 0,0:16:37.35,0:16:40.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and beliefs of particular judges
Dialogue: 0,0:16:40.64,0:16:42.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and we have had a case that was overturned
Dialogue: 0,0:16:42.23,0:16:43.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in appeal in NSW
Dialogue: 0,0:16:43.83,0:16:45.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the Superclinics case
Dialogue: 0,0:16:45.42,0:16:48.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where the particular personal beliefs of a judge
Dialogue: 0,0:16:48.30,0:16:51.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,clearly intervened in his decision
Dialogue: 0,0:16:51.55,0:16:55.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in declaring a particular abortion had been unlawful.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:55.52,0:17:00.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And as I've said, we know from the case in Queensland
Dialogue: 0,0:17:00.24,0:17:01.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that while prosecutions are rare,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:01.90,0:17:05.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they're certainly a very real possibility.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:05.84,0:17:07.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In practice what it means of course
Dialogue: 0,0:17:07.11,0:17:08.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is that abortion is in a grey zone.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:08.92,0:17:13.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It is not fully legal like other mainstream medical procedures.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:13.83,0:17:16.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In NSW terminations are performed
Dialogue: 0,0:17:16.43,0:17:18.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,overwhelming in the private sector,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:18.04,0:17:20.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not in the public sector,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:20.61,0:17:24.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and there are really concerning issues about cost and access
Dialogue: 0,0:17:24.23,0:17:27.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as a result of that.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:27.84,0:17:31.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Fetal anomaly is not a relevant consideration
Dialogue: 0,0:17:31.42,0:17:34.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to the test of unlawful abortion
Dialogue: 0,0:17:34.56,0:17:38.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,except to the extent that a child, if born disabled,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:38.44,0:17:45.15,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,might have an impact upon the psychological health of the mother.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:45.15,0:17:46.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that's just ridiculous.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:46.98,0:17:52.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You know, we know that the overwhelming majority of public opinion
Dialogue: 0,0:17:52.88,0:17:55.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,supports access to abortion at least in that—
Dialogue: 0,0:17:55.41,0:17:56.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in those circumstances.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:56.78,0:17:58.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Indeed the majority supports it
Dialogue: 0,0:17:58.76,0:18:01.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in an even broader set of circumstances.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:01.70,0:18:04.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But certainly to have a law that doesn't recognise
Dialogue: 0,0:18:04.44,0:18:07.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,serious fetal anomaly as grounds in itself
Dialogue: 0,0:18:07.73,0:18:12.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for a lawful abortion is quite concerning.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:12.00,0:18:14.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so we're left with a disconnect between what the law says
Dialogue: 0,0:18:14.64,0:18:16.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what most people think it says
Dialogue: 0,0:18:16.51,0:18:19.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and what is actually happening in practice.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:19.44,0:18:23.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Because we have clinics who— that are operating
Dialogue: 0,0:18:23.07,0:18:25.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where terminations are performed
Dialogue: 0,0:18:25.55,0:18:30.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but where it's done with a concern constantly
Dialogue: 0,0:18:30.87,0:18:33.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to be able satisfy this very limited test
Dialogue: 0,0:18:33.94,0:18:36.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of serious risk to the life or health of the woman
Dialogue: 0,0:18:36.21,0:18:41.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that doesn't really accord with the motives
Dialogue: 0,0:18:41.21,0:18:42.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and with the reality of what's happening
Dialogue: 0,0:18:42.88,0:18:46.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with a lot of terminations.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:46.26,0:18:47.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so finally just to bring it back to
Dialogue: 0,0:18:47.48,0:18:49.59,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the concern about Zoe's Law:
Dialogue: 0,0:18:49.59,0:18:53.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because we have this fundamental instability
Dialogue: 0,0:18:53.89,0:18:56.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and a lack of a secure foundation
Dialogue: 0,0:18:56.49,0:19:00.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a secure legal foundation for abortion in NSW
Dialogue: 0,0:19:00.22,0:19:04.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,any law that recognises a fetus as a living person
Dialogue: 0,0:19:04.18,0:19:05.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is what Zoe's Law will do
Dialogue: 0,0:19:05.68,0:19:07.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,however limited it is
Dialogue: 0,0:19:07.52,0:19:12.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to the particular section of the Crimes Act that the amendment relates to
Dialogue: 0,0:19:12.98,0:19:15.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,however limited it is
Dialogue: 0,0:19:15.47,0:19:18.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it provides ammunition for someone
Dialogue: 0,0:19:18.34,0:19:21.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who wishes to challenge the lawfulness of an abortion
Dialogue: 0,0:19:21.17,0:19:23.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the next time a case comes to court.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:23.81,0:19:27.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that's an issue that I think should be of serious concern to all of us.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:27.66,0:19:28.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Thanks very much.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:28.53,0:19:34.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[applause]