WEBVTT
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silent 30C3 preroll titles
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applause
Herald: Alright!
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Good evening, everybody.
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The ‘Saal’ is pretty full?
So I guess this is gonna be
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an interesting talk.
We are on a tight schedule.
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Our speaker, Jake Appelbaum is gonna be
joined by Julian Assange via video stream.
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I really hope that’s gonna work.
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So without further ado – please
welcome our speaker and… have fun!
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applause, some cheers
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Jacob Appelbaum: So we have a surprise
guest. Some of you might know her.
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She saved Edward Snowden’s life.
Her name is Sarah Harrison.
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applause and loud cheers
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Jacob applauding as Sarah prepares
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continued applause
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Sarah Harrison: Thank you.
she and Jacob laugh
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laughter
one shout from audience
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Good evening. My name is Sarah
Harrison as you all appear to know.
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I’m a journalist working for Wikileaks.
This year I was part – as Jacob just said –
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of the Wikileaks team that saved
Snowden from a life in prison.
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This act, and my job has meant that
our legal advice is that I do not return
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to my home, the United Kingdom, due to
the ongoing terrorism investigation there,
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in relation to the movement of
Edward Snowden documents.
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The U.K. Government has chosen to
define disclosing classified documents
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with an intent to influence Government
behaviour as terrorism. I’m therefore
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currently remaining in Germany. But
it’s not just myself, personally, that has
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legal issues of Wikileaks. For a fourth
Christmas, our editor Julian Assange
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continues to be detained without charge
in the U.K. He’s been granted formal
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political asylum by Ecuador due to
the threat from the United States.
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But in breach of international law the
U.K. continues to refuse to allow him
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his legal right to take up this asylum.
In November of this year,
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a U.S. Government official confirmed that
the enormous Grand Jury investigation
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which commenced in 2010 into Wikileaks,
its stuff and specifically Julian Assange
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continues. This was then confirmed by the
spokesperson of the prosecutor’s office
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in Virginia. The Icelandic Parliament
held an inquiry earlier this year where it
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found that the FBI had secretly and
unlawfully sent nine agents to Iceland
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to conduct an investigation into Wikileaks
there. Further secret interrogations
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took place in Denmark and Washington.
The informant they were speaking with
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has been charged with fraud and
convicted on other charges in Iceland.
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In the Icelandic Supreme Court we won
a substantial victory over the extra-legal
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U.S. financial blockade that was erected
against us in 2010 by Visa, Mastercard,
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Paypal and other U.S. financial giants.
Subsequently, Mastercard pulled out
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of the blockade. We’ve since filed
a $77 million legal case against Visa
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for damages. We filed a suit against Visa
in Denmark as well. And in response
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to questions about how Paypal’s owner can
start a free press outlet whilst blocking
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another media organization, he has
announced that the PayPal blockade
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of Wikileaks has ended.
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applause
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That wasn’t meant to be a pause for your
clap, I just needed some water. Sorry!
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We filed criminal cases in Sweden and
Germany in relation to the unlawful
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Intelligence activity against us there,
including at the CCC in 2009.
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Together with the Center for Constitutional
Rights we filed a suit against the
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U.S. military, against the unprecedented
secrecy applied to Chelsea Manning’s
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trial. Yet through these attacks we’ve
continued our publishing work. In April
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of this year, we launched the Public Library
of U.S. Diplomacy, the largest and
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most comprehensive searchable database
of U.S. diplomatic cables in the world.
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This coincided with our release of 1.7
million U.S. cables from the Kissinger period.
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We launched our third Spy Files, 249
documents from 92 global Intelligence
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contractors exposing their technology,
methods, and contracts. We completed
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releasing the Global Intelligence Files,
over five million emails from U.S. Intelligence
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firm Stratfor, the revelations from which
included documenting their spying
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on activists around the globe. We
published the primary negotiating
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positions for 14 countries of
the Trans-Pacific Partnership,
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a new international legal regime that
would control 40% of the world’s GDP.
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As well as getting Snowden asylum, we set
up Mr. Snowden’s defence fund, part of
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a broader endeavor, the Journalistic
Source Protection Defence Fund, which aims
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to protect and fund sources in trouble.
This will be an important fund for
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future sources, especially when we look
at the U.S. crackdown on whistleblowers
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like Snowden and alleged Wikileaks source
Chelsea Manning who was sentenced
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this year to 35 years in prison, and
another alleged Wikileaks source
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Jeremy Hammond, who was sentenced to ten
years in prison this November. These men
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– Snowden, Manning and Hammond – are
prime examples of a politicized youth
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who have grown up with a free internet
and want to keep it that way.
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It is this class of people that we
are here to discuss this evening,
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the powers they and we all have, and can
have, and the good that we can do with it.
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I’m joined here tonight for this
discussion by two men I admire hugely:
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– hopefully one of them will appear soon –
laughs
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Wikileaks editor-in-chief Julian Assange
and Jacob Appelbaum, both who have had
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a long history in defending our right
to knowledge, despite political
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and legal pressure. There he is!
laughs
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applause and cheers
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So, Julian, saying as I haven’t
seen you for quite a while,
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what’s been happening in this field
this year? What’s your strategic view
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about it, this fight for
freedom of knowledge?
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Are we winning or are we losing?
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Julian Assange: via A/V connection, on screen
Well, I have an 18-page speech
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on the strategic vision. But I think
I’ve got about five> minutes, right?
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coughs
Sarah: At the most!
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No, less? Okay. Well, first off,
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it’s very interesting to see
the CCC has grown by 30%
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over the last year. And we can see the CCC
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as a very important type of institution
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which does have analogues(?).
The CCC is a paradox
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in that it has the vibrancy of a young
movement, but also now has been going
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nearly 30 years since its founding
in 1981 by Wau Holland and others.
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video transmission stops/freezes
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Sarah: laughs Great point, great point.
laughter
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Jacob: Blame the NSA!
Sarah: He, heh?
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Jacob: Blame the NSA!
Sarah laughs
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So, the new “blame Canada”!
Sounds of Skype, reconnecting
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Sarah: Is it here or the embassy
that they’re spying on the most?
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laughter
ongoing sounds of Skype reconnecting
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Hey, such a good talk, isn’t it, guys?
she laughs
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Jacob: I wish Bruce Willis [Assange's
Skype name] would pick up the phone!
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laughter
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Sarah: Should we move over while we’re
waiting to you, Jake? As I said, I got…
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I think that it’s quite interesting, it
does seem to be a trend that there are
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these young, technical people. We look
at Manning, Snowden, Hammond…
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often sysadmins. Why are they playing
such an important role in this fight
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for freedom of information?
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Jacob: Well, so, I think there are
a couple of important points.
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The first important point is to understand
that all of us have agency, but some of us
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actually literately have more agency than
others in the sense that you have access
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to systems that give you access to
information that help to found knowledge
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that you have in your own head. So someone
like Manning or someone like Snowden
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who has access to these documents in
the course of their work, they will simply
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have a better understanding of what is
actually happening. They have access
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to the primary source documents.
That’s part of their job. This, I think,
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fundamentally is a really critical,
I would say a formative thing.
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When you start to read these original
source documents you start to understand
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the way that organizations actually think
internally. I mean, this is one of the things
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that Julian Assange has said quite a lot,
it’s that when you read the internal
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documents of an organization, that’s how
they really think about a thing. This is
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different than a press release. And people
who have grown up on the internet,
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and they’re essentially natives on the
internet, and that’s all of us, I think,
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for the most part. It’s definitely me.
That essentially forms a way
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of thinking about organizations where
the official thing that they say
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is not interesting. You know that
there is an agenda behind that
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and you don’t necessarily know what
that true agenda is. And so people
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who grow up in this and see these
documents, they realise the agency
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that they have. They understand it, they
see that power, and they want to do
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something about it, in some cases. Some
people do it in small starts and fits.
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So there are lots of sources for lots
of newspapers that are inside of
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defense organizations or really, really
large companies, and they share
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this information. But in the case of
Chelsea Manning, in the case of Snowden
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they went big. And I presume that this is
because of the scale of the wrongdoing
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that they saw, in addition to the
amount of agency that was provided
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by their access and by their
understanding of the actual information
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they were able to have
in their possession.
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Sarah: And do you think that it has
something to do with being technical
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they have a potential
ability to find a way to do this
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safer than other people, perhaps? Or…
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Jacob: I mean, it’s clearly the case that
this helps. There’s no question that
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understanding how to use those computer
systems and being able to navigate them,
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that that is going to be a helpful skill.
But I think what it really is is that
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these are people who grew up in an era,
and I myself am one of these people,
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where we grew up in an era where we’re
overloaded by information but we still
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are able to absorb a great deal of it.
And we really are constantly going
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through this. And if we look to the past,
we see that it’s not just technical people,
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it’s actually people who have an
analytical mind. So e.g. Daniel Ellsberg,
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who is famous for the ‘Ellsberg Paradox’.
He was of course a very seriously
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embedded person in the U.S. military.
He was in the RAND corporation,
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he worked with McNamara.
And during the Vietnam War
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he had access to huge amounts of
information. And it was the ability
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to analyze this information
and to understand, in this case
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how the U.S. Government during the
Vietnam War was lying to the entire world.
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And it was the magnitude of those lies
combined with the ability to prove that
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they were lies that, I believe, combined
with his analytical skill it was clear
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what the action might be. But it wasn’t
clear what the outcome would be.
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And with Ellsberg, the outcome was
a very positive one. In fact it’s
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the most positive outcome for any
whistleblower so far that I know of
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in the history of the United States
and maybe even in the world.
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What we see right now with Snowden and
what we’ve now seen with Chelsea Manning
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is unfortunately a very different
outcome, at least for Manning.
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So this is also a hugely important
point which is that Ellsberg did this
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in the context of resistance against the
Vietnam War. And when Ellsberg did this,
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there were huge support networks, there
were gigantic things that split across
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all political spectrums of society.
And so it is the analytical framework
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that we find ourselves with, still;
but additionally with the internet.
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And so every single person here
that works as a sysadmin, could you
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raise your hand? Right. You represent
– and I’m sorry to steal Julian’s thunder,
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but he was using Skype, and… well…
laughter and applause
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But we all know Skype has interception
and man-in-the-middle problems, so…
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I’m gonna take advantage of that fact. You
see, it’s not just the NSA. Everyone that
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raised their hand, you should raise your
hand again! If you work at a company
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where you think that they might be
involved in something that is
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a little bit scary, keep your hand up!
laughter
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Right. So here’s the deal: everybody else
in the room lacks the information that
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you probably have access to. And if you
were to make a moral judgment, if you
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were to make an ethical consideration
about these things, it would be the case
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that as a political class you would
be able to inform all of the other
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political classes in this room, all of the
other people in this room, in a way that
00:14:08.910 --> 00:14:13.970
only you have the agency to do. And those
who benefit from you never doing that,
00:14:13.970 --> 00:14:18.190
or the other people that have that. Those
people also are members of other classes
00:14:18.190 --> 00:14:22.060
as well. And so the question is: If you
were to unite as a political class,
00:14:22.060 --> 00:14:25.320
and we are to unite with you in that
political class, we can see that there’s
00:14:25.320 --> 00:14:30.970
a contextual way to view this through
a historical lens, essentially.
00:14:30.970 --> 00:14:33.820
Which is to say that when the
industrialized workers of the world
00:14:33.820 --> 00:14:38.680
decided that race and gender were not
lines that we should split on, but instead
00:14:38.680 --> 00:14:43.730
we should look at workers and owners, then
we started to see real change in the way
00:14:43.730 --> 00:14:47.970
that workers were treated and in the way
that the world itself was organizing labor.
00:14:47.970 --> 00:14:51.780
And this was a hugely important change
during the Industrial Revolution.
00:14:51.780 --> 00:14:55.470
And we are going through a very similar
time now with regard to information
00:14:55.470 --> 00:15:02.280
politics and with regard to the value
of information in our information age.
00:15:02.280 --> 00:15:09.490
Skype connection being re-established
applause
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Skype connection just terminates again
laughter
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Jacob: Fantastic, Bruce Willis!
00:15:18.880 --> 00:15:23.950
laughter
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Hahahaha! Jesus Christ,
Julian, use Jitsy already!
00:15:28.490 --> 00:15:36.250
laughter, applause and cheers
00:15:36.250 --> 00:15:39.660
Sarah: And so, we’ve identified the
potential of the people that you were
00:15:39.660 --> 00:15:43.500
talking about. So you’ve spoken about
how it’s good for them to unite.
00:15:43.500 --> 00:15:47.020
What are the next steps? How do they come
forth? How do they share this information?
00:15:47.020 --> 00:15:51.180
Jacob: Well, let’s consider a couple of
things. First is that Bradley Manning
00:15:51.180 --> 00:15:58.720
– now Chelsea Manning, Daniel Ellsberg
– still Daniel Ellsberg, Edward Snowden
00:15:58.720 --> 00:16:01.690
– living in exile in Russia, unfortunately…
00:16:01.690 --> 00:16:05.520
Sarah: …still Edward Snowden!
Jacob: Still Edward Snowden! Hopefully.
00:16:05.520 --> 00:16:07.940
Sarah laughs
These are people who have taken
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great actions where they did not even set
out to sacrifice themselves. But once
00:16:13.470 --> 00:16:16.930
when I met Daniel Ellsberg he said:
“Wouldn’t you go to prison for the rest
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of your life to end this war?” This is
something he asked me, and he asked it
00:16:20.610 --> 00:16:24.050
to me quite seriously. And it’s very
incredible to be able to ask
00:16:24.050 --> 00:16:26.040
a hypothetical question…
Skype ringing out
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…of someone. That wasn’t a hypothetical
question! What he was trying to say is
00:16:31.880 --> 00:16:35.640
that right now you can make a choice in
which you can actually have a huge impact,
00:16:35.640 --> 00:16:38.780
should you chose to take on that risk.
But the point is not to set out
00:16:38.780 --> 00:16:41.530
to martyr yourself.
The point is to set out…
00:16:41.530 --> 00:16:43.910
Are you gonna stick
around this time, Julian?
00:16:43.910 --> 00:16:48.020
Julian: via Skype I don’t know, I’m
waiting for the quantum hand, Jake.
00:16:48.020 --> 00:16:50.460
Jacob: The quantum hand
that wants to strangle you?
00:16:50.460 --> 00:16:56.770
Julian: Yeah! I have protection!
Jacob: We were just discussing right now
00:16:56.770 --> 00:17:00.720
the previous context, that is Daniel
Ellsberg, the Edward Snowdens,
00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:04.900
the Chelsea Mannings, how they have done
an honorable, or good thing where they’ve
00:17:04.900 --> 00:17:08.539
shown a duty to a greater humanity.
I think that is more important than
00:17:08.539 --> 00:17:13.500
loyalty, e.g. to a bureaucratic oath, but
rather loyalty to universal principles.
00:17:13.500 --> 00:17:17.059
So the next question is: how does that
relate to the people that are here
00:17:17.059 --> 00:17:20.970
in the audience? How is it the case that
people who have access to systems
00:17:20.970 --> 00:17:23.659
where they have said themselves they
think the companies they work for are
00:17:23.659 --> 00:17:26.779
sort of questionable, or doing
dangerous things in the world?
00:17:26.779 --> 00:17:29.509
Where do we go from people who
have done these things previously
00:17:29.509 --> 00:17:32.459
to these people in the audience?
00:17:32.459 --> 00:17:37.860
Julian: Well, I don’t know how much ground
you covered, but I think it’s important
00:17:37.860 --> 00:17:47.609
that we recognize what we are, and what we
have become. And that high tech workers are
00:17:47.609 --> 00:17:51.840
a particular class. In fact, very
often it’s ‘class hacking’…(?).
00:17:51.840 --> 00:17:58.469
…class … a position to in fact
prompt the leaders of society…
00:17:58.469 --> 00:18:02.960
[audio crippled, incomprehensible]
00:18:02.960 --> 00:18:07.509
[audio crippled, incomprehensible]
mumble in the audience
00:18:07.509 --> 00:18:11.879
laughter
00:18:11.879 --> 00:18:14.290
Sarah: Should we just leave
him like that and continue?
00:18:14.290 --> 00:18:18.600
laughter
00:18:18.600 --> 00:18:30.560
laughter and applause
00:18:30.560 --> 00:18:33.499
Julian: Am I back?
Audience and speakers: Yeah!!
00:18:33.499 --> 00:18:36.100
Sarah: You’ve got three minutes!
To say something!
00:18:36.100 --> 00:18:38.990
Julian: Alright!
Sarah: Make it good!
00:18:38.990 --> 00:18:43.169
Julian: Those high tech workers – we are
a particular class and it’s time that
00:18:43.169 --> 00:18:47.489
we recognized that we are a class. And
looked back in history and understood
00:18:47.489 --> 00:18:53.230
that the great gains in human rights and
education etc. that were gained through
00:18:53.230 --> 00:18:56.279
powerful industrial workers which
formed the backbone of the economy
00:18:56.279 --> 00:19:01.249
of the 20th century, and that we have
that same ability but even more so
00:19:01.249 --> 00:19:06.630
because of the greater interconnection
that exists now economically and
00:19:06.630 --> 00:19:10.309
politically. Which is all underpinned by
system administrators. And we should
00:19:10.309 --> 00:19:15.980
understand that system administrators are
not just those people who administer
00:19:15.980 --> 00:19:21.950
one UNIX system or another. They are
the people who administer systems. And
00:19:21.950 --> 00:19:27.919
the system that exists globally now is
created by the interconnection of many
00:19:27.919 --> 00:19:36.049
individual systems. And we are all… or
many of us are part of administering
00:19:36.049 --> 00:19:42.659
that system and have extraordinary
power in a way that is really
00:19:42.659 --> 00:19:46.950
an order of magnitude different to
the power industrial workers had
00:19:46.950 --> 00:19:52.469
back in the 20th century. And we can
see that in the cases of the famous leaks
00:19:52.469 --> 00:19:56.489
that Wikileaks has done or the
recent Edward Snowden revelations,
00:19:56.489 --> 00:20:01.320
it is possible now for even a single system
administrator to have a very significant
00:20:01.320 --> 00:20:08.280
change to the… or rather apply a very
significant constructive constraint
00:20:08.280 --> 00:20:12.749
to the behavior of these organizations.
Not merely wrecking or disabling them,
00:20:12.749 --> 00:20:19.150
not merely going out on strikes to
change a policy, but rather shifting
00:20:19.150 --> 00:20:24.419
an information apartheid system
which we’re developing
00:20:24.419 --> 00:20:27.340
from those with extraordinary power
and extraordinary information
00:20:27.340 --> 00:20:32.519
into the knowledge commons, where it can
be used not only as a disciplining force,
00:20:32.519 --> 00:20:37.340
but it can be used to construct
and understand the new world
00:20:37.340 --> 00:20:42.619
that we’re entering into. Now, Hayden,
the former Director of the CIA and NSA,
00:20:42.619 --> 00:20:46.119
is terrified of this. In "Cypherpunks:
[Freedom and the Future of the Internet]"
00:20:46.119 --> 00:20:54.179
we called for this directly last year.
But to give you an interesting quote
00:20:54.179 --> 00:21:03.780
from Hayden, possibly following up
on those words of mine and others:
00:21:03.780 --> 00:21:07.559
“We need to recruit from Snowden’s
generation” says Hayden, “we need
00:21:07.559 --> 00:21:11.480
to recruit from this group because
they have the skills that we require.
00:21:11.480 --> 00:21:15.269
So the challenge is how to recruit this
talent while also protecting ourselves
00:21:15.269 --> 00:21:21.179
from the small fraction of the population
that has this romantic attachment
00:21:21.179 --> 00:21:25.850
to absolute transparency at
all costs.” And that’s us, right?
00:21:25.850 --> 00:21:30.789
So, what we need to do is
spread that message and
00:21:30.789 --> 00:21:34.499
go into all those organizations.
In fact, deal with them. I’m not saying
00:21:34.499 --> 00:21:39.199
“Don’t join the CIA”. No, go
and join the CIA! Go in there!
00:21:39.199 --> 00:21:45.529
Go into the ballpark and get the ball
and bring it out, with the understanding,
00:21:45.529 --> 00:21:50.340
with the paranoia, that all those
organizations will be infiltrated
00:21:50.340 --> 00:21:54.770
by this generation, by an ideology
that is spread across the internet.
00:21:54.770 --> 00:21:58.850
And every young person is educated
on the internet. There will be no person
00:21:58.850 --> 00:22:04.499
that has not been exposed
to this ideology of transparency
00:22:04.499 --> 00:22:09.019
and understanding and wanting to keep
the internet which we were born into free.
00:22:09.019 --> 00:22:14.830
This is the last free generation.
The coming together of these
00:22:14.830 --> 00:22:20.289
systems of governments, the new
information apartheid across the world,
00:22:20.289 --> 00:22:25.790
and linking it together such that
none of us will be able to escape it.
00:22:25.790 --> 00:22:30.720
In just a decade. Our identities will be
coupled to it, the information sharing
00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:35.409
in such that none of us will be able
to escape it. We are all becoming
00:22:35.409 --> 00:22:39.919
part of the state, whether we like it or
not. So our only hope is to determine
00:22:39.919 --> 00:22:45.129
what sort of state it is that we are going
to become part of. And we can do that
00:22:45.129 --> 00:22:51.420
by looking and being inspired by some of
the actions that produced human rights
00:22:51.420 --> 00:22:55.191
and free education etc. by people
recognizing that they were
00:22:55.191 --> 00:23:00.320
part of the state, recognizing their own
power and taking concrete and robust
00:23:00.320 --> 00:23:05.070
action to make sure they lived in
the sort of society that they wanted to
00:23:05.070 --> 00:23:09.049
and not in a hell-hole dystopia.
00:23:09.049 --> 00:23:10.406
Sarah: Thank you!
00:23:10.406 --> 00:23:22.299
applause
00:23:22.299 --> 00:23:26.740
So basically all those poor people Jake
just made identify themselves, you have
00:23:26.740 --> 00:23:31.549
the power to change more systems than
the one you’re working on right now.
00:23:31.549 --> 00:23:34.809
And I think it’s time to take some
questions because we don’t have long left.
00:23:34.809 --> 00:23:39.970
If there are any… I did… what’s the…
00:23:39.970 --> 00:23:43.040
Herald: If you do have questions please
line up in the middle of the room.
00:23:43.040 --> 00:23:46.309
We have microphones there.
00:23:46.309 --> 00:23:51.239
If you cannot reach one, please put your
hand up and we’ll try to get one to you.
00:23:51.239 --> 00:23:54.800
Julian: While we wait for the first
question I’d just like to say I’m not sure
00:23:54.800 --> 00:23:57.380
how many people are in there.
It looks like that it’s quite a lot.
00:23:57.380 --> 00:23:59.230
Sarah: Start going to the mike, even while
he’s talking, if you do have a question.
00:23:59.230 --> 00:24:01.959
Cause otherwise we won’t know that you
have one, and we’ll just keep on going!
00:24:01.959 --> 00:24:05.499
Julian: It looks like there’s
quite a … apologize …
00:24:05.499 --> 00:24:07.169
Herald: Alternatively just raise your
hand, and we’ll try to go to you.
00:24:07.169 --> 00:24:08.929
Julian: It looks like there’s
quite a lot of people there,
00:24:08.929 --> 00:24:13.100
but you should all know that
due to the various sorts of proximity
00:24:13.100 --> 00:24:19.399
measures that are now employed by
NSA, GCHQ and Five Eyes Alliance,
00:24:19.399 --> 00:24:23.070
if you’ve come there with a telephone, or
if you have been even in Hamburg
00:24:23.070 --> 00:24:28.380
with a telephone, you are all now coupled
to us. You are coupled to this event.
00:24:28.380 --> 00:24:32.820
You are coupled to this speech in an
irrevocable way. And that is now true
00:24:32.820 --> 00:24:38.239
for many people. So either
we have to take command
00:24:38.239 --> 00:24:42.019
of the position that we have, understand
the position we have, understand
00:24:42.019 --> 00:24:47.460
that we are the last free people, and the
last people essentially with an ability
00:24:47.460 --> 00:24:51.779
to act in this situation.
Or we are the group
00:24:51.779 --> 00:24:57.549
that will be crushed
because of this association.
00:24:57.549 --> 00:25:03.579
applause
00:25:03.579 --> 00:25:07.239
Herald: I’d say I think we
have a question at the mike 4.
00:25:07.239 --> 00:25:12.709
Question: So you were talking about the
sysadmins here. What about those people
00:25:12.709 --> 00:25:17.960
who are not sysadmins? Not only
joining CIA and those companies,
00:25:17.960 --> 00:25:20.369
what else can we do?
00:25:20.369 --> 00:25:22.239
Sarah: Jake, do you want
to have a go at that one?
00:25:22.239 --> 00:25:24.039
Jacob: Sure.
Skype end-connection sound
00:25:24.039 --> 00:25:26.039
So this is a question of agency, right?
Sarah: Good timing!
00:25:26.039 --> 00:25:30.710
It’s a question in which one has to ask
very simply, what is it that you feel like
00:25:30.710 --> 00:25:34.440
you CAN do? And many people that are
in this audience I’ve had this discussion
00:25:34.440 --> 00:25:39.559
with them. E.g. Edward Snowden did
not save himself. I mean he obviously
00:25:39.559 --> 00:25:44.090
had some ideas, but Sarah e.g., not as a
system administrator, but as someone
00:25:44.090 --> 00:25:48.610
who is willing to risk her person.
She helped specifically
00:25:48.610 --> 00:25:52.209
for source protection, she took actions
to protect him. So there are plenty
00:25:52.209 --> 00:25:56.309
of things that can be done. To give you
some idea, as Edward Snowden’s
00:25:56.309 --> 00:25:59.850
still sitting in Russia now, there are
things that can be done to help him
00:25:59.850 --> 00:26:03.799
even now. And there are things to show
that, if we can succeed in saving Edward
00:26:03.799 --> 00:26:08.429
Snowden’s life and to keep him free, that
the next Edward Snowden will have that
00:26:08.429 --> 00:26:12.830
to look forward to. And if we look also
to what has happened to Chelsea Manning,
00:26:12.830 --> 00:26:18.440
we see additionally that Snowden has
clearly learned. Just as Thomas Drake
00:26:18.440 --> 00:26:22.440
and Bill Binney set an example for every
single person about what to do or
00:26:22.440 --> 00:26:27.009
what not to do. It’s not just about system
administrators, it’s about all of us
00:26:27.009 --> 00:26:32.800
actually recognizing that positive
contribution that each of us can make.
00:26:32.800 --> 00:26:36.350
Herald: Okay. Our next question
will be microphone 2, please.
00:26:36.350 --> 00:26:40.280
applause
00:26:40.280 --> 00:26:45.340
Question: Hi Julian, I’m wondering, do you
believe that transparency alone is enough
00:26:45.340 --> 00:26:53.490
to inject some form of conscience
into ‘evil’ organizations,
00:26:53.490 --> 00:26:56.549
and if not, what do you
believe the next step
00:26:56.549 --> 00:26:59.480
after transparency is?
00:26:59.480 --> 00:27:03.529
Julian: It’s not about injecting
conscience. It’s about providing
00:27:03.529 --> 00:27:08.939
two things: One, an effective deterrent
to particular forms of behavior
00:27:08.939 --> 00:27:15.759
and two, finding that information which
allows us to construct an order
00:27:15.759 --> 00:27:20.549
in the world around us, to educate
ourselves in how the world works
00:27:20.549 --> 00:27:27.169
and therefore be able to manage
the world that we are a part of.
00:27:27.169 --> 00:27:32.200
The restriction of information, the
restriction of those bits of information
00:27:32.200 --> 00:27:36.590
colors it. It gives off an economic
signal that that information is important
00:27:36.590 --> 00:27:39.909
when it’s released. Because otherwise
why would you spend so much work
00:27:39.909 --> 00:27:44.729
in restricting it? So the people who
know it best restrict it. We should take
00:27:44.729 --> 00:27:49.320
their measurement of that information
as a guide and use that to pull it out
00:27:49.320 --> 00:27:54.549
where it can achieve some kind of
reform. That in itself is not enough.
00:27:54.549 --> 00:28:00.860
It creates an intellectual commons
which is part of our mutual education.
00:28:00.860 --> 00:28:06.940
But we need to understand – say,
if we look at the Occupy event,
00:28:06.940 --> 00:28:13.289
a very interesting political event – where
revelations and perhaps destabilization
00:28:13.289 --> 00:28:18.210
led to a mass, a very large group
of people wanting to do something.
00:28:18.210 --> 00:28:22.989
However, there was no organizational
scaffold for these people
00:28:22.989 --> 00:28:30.440
to attach themselves to, no nucleus
for these people to crystallize onto.
00:28:30.440 --> 00:28:37.049
And it is that problem, which is an endemic
problem of the anarchist left, actually.
00:28:37.049 --> 00:28:43.269
The CCC. Why are we having this right now?
Because the CCC is an organized structure.
00:28:43.269 --> 00:28:47.230
It’s a structure which has been able
to grow, to accommodate the 30%
00:28:47.230 --> 00:28:53.289
of extra people that have occurred this
year. To shift and change and act like
00:28:53.289 --> 00:28:57.309
one of the better workers’
universities that are around.
00:28:57.309 --> 00:29:02.779
So we have to form unions and networks
00:29:02.779 --> 00:29:07.159
and create programs and organizational
structures. And those organizational
00:29:07.159 --> 00:29:14.009
structures can also be written in code.
Bitcoin e.g. is an organizational structure
00:29:14.009 --> 00:29:20.680
that creates an intermediary between
people and sets up rules between people.
00:29:20.680 --> 00:29:24.970
It may end up as a quite totalitarian
system one day, who knows? But
00:29:24.970 --> 00:29:30.210
at the moment it provides some kind of
balancing. So code and human structures
00:29:30.210 --> 00:29:34.340
do things. Wikileaks was able to rescue
Edward Snowden because we are
00:29:34.340 --> 00:29:39.209
an organized institution
with collective experience.
00:29:39.209 --> 00:29:41.200
Sarah: Okay, I think there’s
one question left for me
00:29:41.200 --> 00:29:43.250
that’s coming from the internet.
00:29:43.250 --> 00:29:46.320
Signal Angel: Yes, on IRC there was the
question: What was the most difficult
00:29:46.320 --> 00:29:51.010
part on getting Snowden out of the U.S.?
00:29:51.010 --> 00:29:53.890
Jacob: Hah!
Julian laughs
00:29:53.890 --> 00:29:55.659
Jacob: That’s quite a loaded question!
00:29:55.659 --> 00:29:59.820
Julian: Yeah, that’s interesting to think
whether we can actually answer
00:29:59.820 --> 00:30:05.580
that question at all. I’ll give a variant of the
answer because of the legal situation
00:30:05.580 --> 00:30:12.290
it is a little bit difficult. As some of
you may know the U.K. Government has
00:30:12.290 --> 00:30:18.509
admitted to spending £6 million a year
approximately surveilling this embassy,
00:30:18.509 --> 00:30:25.779
in the police forces alone. So you can
imagine the difficulty in communicating
00:30:25.779 --> 00:30:30.909
with various people in different countries
in relation to his diplomatic asylum and
00:30:30.909 --> 00:30:39.060
into logistics in Hong Kong in a situation
like that. And the only reason we were
00:30:39.060 --> 00:30:44.549
able to succeed is because
of extremely dilligent u…
00:30:44.549 --> 00:30:47.870
video transmission freezes
audience uneasy
00:30:47.870 --> 00:30:50.179
Jacob: Perfectly timed!
Sarah: And we didn’t use Skype!
00:30:50.179 --> 00:30:53.559
laughs
laughter
00:30:53.559 --> 00:30:55.600
Jacob: Do we have time
for one more question?
00:30:55.600 --> 00:30:58.949
Herald: I think we ran out
of our time, I’m very sorry.
00:30:58.949 --> 00:31:01.610
Jacob: That was such a fantastic, perfect
way to make sure that you didn’t learn
00:31:01.610 --> 00:31:03.550
the answer to that question!
Sarah: Hehe, yeah!
00:31:03.550 --> 00:31:05.739
laughter
00:31:05.739 --> 00:31:13.910
applause
00:31:13.910 --> 00:31:15.630
Herald: Unfortunately that is all
the time we have for this talk…
00:31:15.630 --> 00:31:16.980
Skype sounds audible
laughter
00:31:16.980 --> 00:31:17.910
From audience: …he wants to say goodbye!
00:31:17.910 --> 00:31:24.900
Herald: …but I want you all, to still (?)
thank you: Jake Appelbaum! Thank you.
00:31:24.900 --> 00:31:28.250
applause
I’m very sorry…
00:31:28.250 --> 00:31:30.530
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00:31:30.530 --> 00:31:37.226
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